SPEAKER_00

This week's episode are nonprofits more noble than for profits, which gets just a fora of the halftime institute. Welcome back to Theology of Business, the show that helps marketplace leaders to integrate their faith into their businesses to make a greater impact in society and in eternity. If you want to learn more about how to partner with God in your business, this show is for you. This is a podcast by Christian Business Leaders for Christian Business Clearers. Hybrid books offered professional books services for the first time. If you're interested in books to spread your ideas, we have two great ones and training videos to share with you. One is titled How to Write a Great Nonfiction Book. And the other is Twelve Ways to Sell More Books. You can get the links to view both of these videos by requesting them at hybridbooks.com forward slash videos. Today we're going to be discussing the question: is nonprofit work more noble than for-profit work? And we're joined by leadership coach Jeff Spatafora of the Halftime Institute. Jeff spent 20 years as a leadership and executive development consultant for Fortune 1000 companies such as Ford Motor Company, Sears and Robuck, CompuWare, Domino's Pizza, Visiteon, Northern Trust Bank, Helene Curtis, and Sky Chefs. And in 2005, he began working as a leadership coach with the Halftime Institute and since then has coached over 130 men and women through the halftime journey and continues to make this a primary part of his ministry. And what's great about having Jeff on is that he actually designs the curriculum that these men and women are going through. And so he's just the perfect person to have on and talk about this question of is nonprofit work more noble than for-profit work? Welcome to the Theology of Business Podcast, Jeff. Thank you very much, Darren, for having me. Absolutely. Well, I just shared a brief bio, but uh tell us a little bit more about yourself and what is halftime and and what impact is it making?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, well, thank you. You know, a little bit of background on me, as you referenced, I had spent um many years in the management consulting world with a with a focus specifically around executive and leadership development. But in 2005, um I was really kind of hitting on all cylinders with my career and even, you know, a wonderful wife and three healthy kids, but just in my heart, I just did not feel a real sense of peace, a real sense of joy about the direction I was heading in. And um I just, you know, I'd been pretty much uh raised on living by the American Dream playbook and was just working that game plan. Um, and I had only been a Christian at that point in time in 2005 uh for about five years. And I was really starting to grow in my faith, and I I started to see a recipe in scripture for joy. And that recipe was not at all evident or part of my American dream life. And I I really got to the point where I said, okay, Lord, what what am I supposed to do? Am I supposed to stay here as a management consultant or am I supposed to move to some other um some other venue uh for for following you and making a difference in your kingdom? And um I happened to be sharing this with a friend of mine when we were fly fishing out here in Colorado where I live, and he said, Hey, you know what? You're in halftime. And I said, Well, what are you talking about? He says, You're in halftime, you're at this season of life where you know the status quo is just not doing it for you anymore. And you're you you want to really understand what's God's calling in your life. And um, so we got out of the river and he gave me the book Halftime, and and I read it, and it it really rocked my world. And I ended up um uh enrolling at the Halftime Institute and going through their process, which is really just designed to help people um figure out what we call their Ephesians 210 calling. And that is uh we are Christ's workmanship created, we are God's workmanship rather, created in Christ Jesus to do the good works that were planned in advance for us to do. And so as I went through that process back in 2005, I I worked with my coach and through the other aspects of the program, and I I popped out on the other side realizing, you know what, I I think my calling is to help people figure out their calling. So now the big question was, no, do I do that in my business platform or do I have to leave this platform? And ultimately uh I realized that the most leveraged, and as you um titled this this podcast, the most noble way for me personally to do it was to move to a a ministry platform. Um so that was really just my story, but that's what Halftime ultimately does. And I went back to Halftime and said, look, can can I help you guys in some way? And so we we started to formalize and and and broaden our coaching capabilities. And so um now we we have 35 coaches in seven countries around the world that are helping people figure out their Ephesians 210 calling.

SPEAKER_00

So these are these mainly people that are coming from uh business background that have kind of worked their way up in their career and kind of reached the the top of the corporate ladder, and and many of them realize that that ladder was kind of against the wrong building. Is that kind of the stage of life that they arrive at?

SPEAKER_01

That's exactly it, Darren. We we don't recruit uh coaches, we don't hire Christian coaches or Christian counselors. Um every single one of our coaches are former clients. We we want people who are helping halftime institute clients now who've been on the journey themselves. They don't see they don't see being a halftime coach as a good idea or or maybe uh a neat way to spend my time. It's truly they've been called to that role. And so we just let God bubble up out of our client base, our future coaches, and and nobody can really go through the halftime institute program with a real open heart and open hands, without, I mean, there's no way you can kind of game the system. Ultimately, um the you know, the Lord will deliver your Ephesians 210 calling. And so we don't want anybody doing this for the money or doing this for just the heck of it. It's truly their calling. And so um that's the one key component of our coaches' stories, is that they've lived it, but also just to be able to look somebody in the eye and say, you know what, I've been successful.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, I know what it's like to have options with my life. I know, I know that there are spiritual, there are financial, there are marital, there are emotional, psychological challenges to this journey. I've been there. And that level of empathy, uh, and that level of authenticity, and even to a certain extent, that level of brokenness is really helpful to somebody who's going through halftime.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Well, it's really fascinating to me to have you on because you know, here I sit in my early 30s, and you're working with these men and women that have really reached the pinnacles of success in their different industries, and and you know what their desires are at this point in their lives, and that they're experiencing that fulfillment, that that lack of fulfillment. And as you said, in in 20 years of your career, you just lacked joy. And and I read a quote from you where you said that many of these people had been pursuing the wrong things during pretty much that entire uh first part of their of their career. And and so for somebody like myself, I'm I'm kind of looking down the road, like, where does this hustle, this sort of like grinding it out mentality in the marketplace, climbing the corporate ladder, just really making success and influence sort of in the world's uh view paramount. And and this is where the this is the point of life where they come to. So I'm curious, and I have kind of a two-part question here. Uh first is so the mission of halftime is to help these men and women to uh to engage in the issues Jesus cares about. So I'm wondering, does Jesus care about business? And then as well, do most of these people, are they when they kind of come to this halftime point, are they transitioning into a nonprofit or do they typically remain in the for-profit world?

SPEAKER_01

Well, I'll answer the the second question first, if that's okay. To to really truly look at the statistics, I would say 90% of the people that come to the halftime institute are strongly considering leaving the marketplace, you know, whether as an employee or as an owner selling. Um but at the end of the at the end of the day, only about 40% leave. The rest of them really identify that their best place of ministry, their most leveraged, most noble place of ministry is actually in their work platform. Um so a lot of people come in thinking that that they need to leave, but then God speaks to them and says, Hey, you you know, bloom where you're already planted. There's tremendous leverage for you to make a positive difference in people's lives and to glorify me right where you are. So just to answer that first question, the second question is, you know, does does God really care about uh business? And you know, kind of the tongue-in-cheek and sort of the maybe even the flippant answer is you know, God cares about people. Yeah. Um, and you you know that. Um, so I don't want that to come off flippantly. So he he doesn't care where people are, he doesn't care if they're in academia, he doesn't care if they're in Wall Street, he doesn't care if they're in some obscure uh third world nation. Um his whole his whole plan is to get lost people back to him through Christ. And wherever there's people, um, God's happy to be there. It's just our our role is to be obedient to to playing out um the our role in his larger plan. And so uh there are no shortage of people that are disconnected from God's love in American business. And so it's just as viable a um a kingdom-building platform as any.

SPEAKER_00

Wow, great answer. So God cares about business because he cares about people, and and he if he cares about business, it's because there are a lot of people there, which you know we know that somewhere around at least I think it's upward of 90% of people work in a that that are employed work in a for-profit company.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Uh so I'm wondering, did before they came to halftime, so they about nine that's really fascinating that 90% of them came to halftime with uh a view to transition into the nonprofit world. Before they came to halftime, did they did most of them view themselves as being in ministry in the business world, or did they feel like they needed to go into the nonprofit world and then they would have a sense that they're really partnering with God in ministry, as you said just a second ago, that that's where people are in business. So you can be in ministry there because that's where a lot of lost people are.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Well, I think that is the case. I think there's a lot of people that have are living under a myth that I think your theology of business movement is is dispelling quite well. And that myth is I'm I'm somehow a second-class Christian citizen if I'm not in full-time ministry.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_01

And so they come in thinking that, and really what they're lacking is um creative vision around how to make the marketplace their ministry. And and to be able to sort of snap them out of that myopia, this sort of binary thinking that, well, it's either it's either, you know, either I'm a sinner in in um the marketplace, and my job is to just make money and write checks for the kingdom, um, and I'm kind of second-class citizen, or I'm really a you know, cool, gutsy, courageous and moving in full-time ministry. And and you know, we try to dispel that myth early like like you do. The the real the real question at hand is not what's the more noble, nor what's the more leveraged platform, marketplace, or ministry. It's really kind of the wrong question. Um, because I think we could all argue both sides of the argument well, around why it might be more noble and leveraged in the marketplace or more noble and leveraged in ministry. The real question that we should be asking is uh what is God's calling on my life? So it's really a matter of obedience, not a matter of how can I just simply leverage one place or the other. Now, the challenge with obedience is kind of twofold. Um, number one is you can't be obedient to instructions or an assignment if you can't hear the assignment.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_01

You haven't received the assignment, you don't know what obedience is. And so there's, you know, the the kind of catchy little phrase is you can't get your calling unless you hear the caller.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And then second piece of this challenge of obedience is now to trust. So there's a courage element. So one is a matter of sort of spiritual growth and being able to truly fine-tune your ear to God's voice and to his spirit speaking through your circumstances or through your prayers or through your through scripture or friends. Um but it's that first is to hear, and the second is to is to have the guts to to trust and obey. And if we can do that first, what happens is the decision about marketplace or ministry becomes very simple. It's not our bright thinking, it's not our strategic thinking, it's not our getting creative about, hey, you know, how do we how do we make you know lemonade out of these lemons we got? It's it's it's not a matter of that. It's just a matter of obedience, and we just step into that. And for some people, it's it's staying in the marketplace, and for some people it's moving out.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. You know, Jeff's some of a lot of the uh marketplace ministry movement type uh books and and uh work as ministry and God at work, all these types of books and resources. I I come across this interpretation of 1 Corinthians 7 20 uh quite often, which says each person should remain in the situation they were in when God called them. How do you interpret that verse and and and how how would you interpret that to one of your coaching clients?

SPEAKER_01

Well, that's a good point because I I've had people say that to me. It's like, you know, I would I would just, you know, obey God if I if I knew what he was calling me to do. And one of the key questions to ask is, when was the last time you heard from God, if ever, and have you followed through on that? Yeah. So one of the key things is is you know, where I am is is clearly where I am, but if he called me two years ago to go do something else and I didn't disnobe, well then I'm in disobedience. And and so so it's really now if if you are hearing from God nothing or stay, then I I recommend you stay. But if the nothingness, if the silence you're hearing from God is is because of our inability to draw closer to Him or our unwillingness to draw closer to Him, my advice is before you do anything, before you leave, before you decide to stay, is you put all of your energy into just taking a look at where am I in my walk, and then what can I do to creatively just move it up one notch? Just what can I do to grow a little bit more? And then and then be able to make um again, not a smart decision, but an obedient decision.

SPEAKER_00

Right. So I think we've established here, uh responding to our original question, is nonprofit work more noble than for-profit work? That it really has to do with what you're called to do. And and the most noble thing to do as a Christian is to do what God has called us to do, whether that's nonprofit work or for-profit work. And you can't know what that calling is if you're not in relationship with the caller, if you're not in a place where you can hear from God. And and you had pointed out in a quote that I had read by you that um people, many people are driven by their their company's agenda, they're driven by views of success, like world's views of success. And when somebody is kind of wrapped up in that rat race, it's very difficult to get away and hear from God. And I think that's what's so powerful about the Halftime Institute is that it provides a place. I mean, from the stories I've heard of the the people that have gone through, that it provides a place that is conducive to hearing that voice.

SPEAKER_01

Well, and and I think that's that's absolutely it. And you know, there's there's lots of different ways to hear the voice, hear that voice. And I don't want to give people the notion that this is all about just totally um, you know, ramping up your prayer time or your reading of scripture. That that absolutely, unequivocally, at least for me, is one of the key ways I hear from God. Um, but the step that's even prior to that is just to slow down, to create some margin. And you can use that margin in your calendar for sort of traditional um spiritual growth disciplines, but also just create some margin to get out in the world and see what's happening. You know, back when I was when I was going through halftime in 2005, what what little success I was having in the consulting world was because I was super disciplined and super, super focused. I would just I would just would not, I refuse to be distracted from being successful.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And what happens is your world gets really small. You know, I thought the whole world revolved around, you know, management consulting for the Fortune 500. And so what I started to do was just to create some space to grow spiritually, but also go talk to people that are doing cool things with their businesses for the kingdom, go on mission trips, go, you know, drive across town and talk to the executive director of a 501c3 that's doing some pretty cool work. And God speaks to us through those experiences just like he does through scripture. And if we would broaden the aperture of where God's at work, we might ultimately come back to saying, hey, my business is the best platform, but we may also get exposed to some other options that weren't even on our radar screen.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_01

So creating that margin in our calendar, spending more time in sort of traditional spiritual disciplines, but also just get out there and kick up some dust and create, you know, as we say at halftime, diverse exposure to where God's at work, um, those are Other ways for you for a person to come to a really confident decision about should I stay in business or should I transition to something else?

SPEAKER_00

So for those that that you said it was about was it 40% that stay in business or 50%? Yeah, for yeah, exactly. 40. Okay, 40%. So what change happens? So the I mean, because it was a much larger percentage of them that that thought they were going to go into nonprofit, but they stay in the for-profit world. Like what are the changes that happen in those men and women when they come through halftime? And and what do you what do you put you design the curriculum a lot of the curriculum? Uh what do you put in the curriculum that fosters this change?

SPEAKER_01

Darren, that's a fantastic question around what happens in the program, but key that would cause so many people to decide to stay in the marketplace. But I think key to answering that question is a little bit of what's happening before that, what's happening before they get to actually going through the halftime institute, and that is that there's they they have a paradigm that for some reason their Christian life, and about 95% of our clients are Christian. They could be seekers, but they're at least have a they're open to the message of Jesus Christ and the God of the Bible. And they have a sense that this discontent that they're feeling in their life is correlated to some level of disobedience, about I'm not doing God's work. And so their initial reaction to solving this problem of discontent or lack of joy is I got to go do something for God. And the the fact of the matter is, most of our clients are leaders, they're high octane, they're creative, they know how to get stuff done. And taking action has always been a positive feedback loop for their business and for their life. And so they're thinking for their hearts that it must be that you know, you you pull out the same trick. Go go get busy for Jesus. Right. Well, what's happening in the process uh is is that they're actually barking up the wrong tree. They're in some cases, they're just under this performance-oriented or even guilt-oriented approach to still kind of earning God's love. If maybe I can earn God's love, and then I'll experience this peace and joy that I hear in all these sermons and read in scripture. Yeah. And what happens in the process of going through the halftime experience is that we're not going to throw a wet blanket on that God-given energy to go take action. So we're kind of letting them run down that path of going to do something. But at the same time, we're going down a path around who am I going to be?

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Who's God shaping me to be? And in that process of really, it's sort of that's really discipleship that's running in parallel to life coaching, you know, doing stuff. What happens is eventually the love of God invades their heart in a way they've never really experienced before. And what happens is their theology starts to become their reality, and personal transformation happens. Wow. They're like, they realize, you know, I'm not, I'm not just kind of forgiven of my sins so that when my body stops, I go to heaven. I'm like, I'm forgiven and I'm free. I'm free of my sins. And it's it's an experience of transformation. And what happens, uh, I believe, is that personal transformation has to precede business transformation. Otherwise, you're just reading other people's stories and coming up with organizational effectiveness gimmicks that happen to have Christian labels on them. It's just gimmicks and techniques and strategies about how I can try to be a better Christian and make a better Christian organization. And what happens many times for people who haven't really had a true encounter with the Holy Spirit is they redesign their businesses on Christian morality. But not on this is a not on a thinking that this is a platform and a mechanism for me to transform the lives of my employees, of my customers, of my suppliers. And so they see they what happens when somebody's going through the program is that they see that their business can be a transformative kingdom-building mechanism as opposed to a mechanism to espouse Christian values. I hope I'm making myself clear on that distinction. Um but it it moves from you know being morality to to the real truth of what spirituality in Jesus Christ is all about. And so what happens is those people get excited as they're going through the process, and they go back into their businesses and they create cultures of discipleship and life improvement and life transformation, as opposed to take a look at our mission, vision, and values, and they're rooted in Christian mores.

SPEAKER_00

Wow. Yeah, I mean, and it it makes sense that if somebody is coming out of that, you know, two decade-long experience of having a lack of joy, lack of peace in the in their role in the marketplace, that a lot of that has to do with sort of the um just the world system. It is so performance-oriented, like everything has to do with so you can bring that right into your relationship with God if we're not careful. It can be about earning things from God rather than having this revelation that not only does he love us and accept us, but but he trusts us, he believes in the best in us, that he's not anticipating our next failure, he's antip anticipating our next success. And so what a powerful experience to have where you come out of an entire career, or at least first half of somebody's career in that in that mindset, and then going back into the same, or maybe concurrently while they're uh they're still in that same maybe workplace to now come into it with new eyes and really a new heart, like a renewed, a renewed mind. Like, I mean, we're we're called, I think, to to have our minds renewed on a daily basis, but for some Christians, it might take 20 years, you know, it might before they actually get that that experience of having a renewed mind to be able to see their business the way God sees it.

SPEAKER_01

And and it starts, Darren, with seeing themselves as God sees them. Again, it's this personal transformation. Absolutely. And and so what's what's happening with the halftimer is that their initial hunch is that their problem with with um joy is is gonna lead them to a pinnacle of joy that's equal to their personal ministry. And the fact of the matter is the peak of their joy is not their personal ministry, the peak of their joy is their personal relationship with with Jesus. And then the ministry just flows out of that.

SPEAKER_00

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

It's the ministry is the fruit, but the real nourishment, the real energy, the real creativity, the love, the grace is our relationship with Christ. And that just that just flips the whole focus. If you think about John 15, 5, I'm the vine, you're the branch, apart from me, you can produce no fruit. What happens is halftimers get really fruit focused early in the journey. But as they're moving into the journey, they they end up understanding how unbelievably gracious the vine is. And the fruit just will flow from there. And the the problem for for most half timers is that because they're talented, because they're well connected, because they're creative, because they're well resourced, they can actually go produce fruit on their own with just Christian morals.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But it it tires them out, and it's it's not nearly as robust and luscious a fruit as if if God's doing it through them. And when it's going through them, it's it's it's not tiring. It's fun, it's more organic, and the fruit is much more luscious and and and bountiful to carry out the metaphor. And yeah, so it's that orientation that switches throughout the the year-long program.

SPEAKER_00

Wow. And that's something that comes through on this podcast a lot is that I mean, we could take principles and apply those to our business, and and you don't even have to be a Christian for those principles to work, you know, which is proof that you can take the principles and leave God out of it and not really have that personal experience, that personal relationship with God, where we actually not only learn more about who he is, but we discover who we are. And that can't be done on timeless principles alone. I mean, it has to be done in a relationship with God.

SPEAKER_01

Yep, absolutely. And and and here's the deal: this is kind of what what we're seeing across the globe for business people in the in the seven in the seven countries that the the halftime institute is located. Is there are many people who are staying in the marketplace and it's really a smokescreen that's hiding some fear or protecting some comfort. And they'll they'll go, you know, wax eloquently about how Paul was a tent maker. And they'll go on and on and talk about, you know, hey, this is, you know, well, why do you have to go to the ministry world? You know, we got plenty of uh, you know, uh harvest here in the marketplace. But really what's happening is they're they're kind of making excuses for ways to stay comfortable because they kind of like the money and they like the perks. And if you look at what they're doing with their business as a platform, it's not real bold leveraging of their business as their kingdom building. It's more like, hey, I'm a good guy with good morals and and oh yeah, I'm a Christian. And it's kind of milked toast, to be honest with you.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Yeah, because I mean you start doing things like you were talking about earlier, how some of the the graduates of halftime, when they go back into their business, they view it as a means to bring about transformation and that and that it is a vehicle, a business can be a vehicle for discipleship, which probably sounds more intimidating to some people than it really is. I mean, really it's it's being able to set an example, like Paul said, imitate me as I imitate Christ. And and in a relationship with God, we begin to walk that out in our business practices, in our encounters with with our customers and coworkers and subordinates and colleagues and everybody. And and that begins to be a reflection to bring about that discipleship uh process where somebody says, I want what you have. Okay, come and follow me. Let me show you what it's like to be a disciple of Jesus. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And and and the the the opposite is is true of well, that the as well, there are some there are some people in the marketplace where they create a smokescreen of leaving the marketplace and going into ministry because they think, well, if I could put all my time and creativity purely into the kingdom and not have to deal with any of the business stuff, that would be better. But really, what can often be oftentimes be going on there is that they have this flawed image of either the church or the parachurch world as being, you know, kumbaya on campfires. And and it's not. It's you know, there's broken people, there's there's broken processes, there's broken budgets, and it can be painful. And some of these people may actually be running away from um the marketplace because they don't like the stress or or whatever it might be. And uh I I had a client that was exactly in this position. He was a he was um uh a senior executive at a large regional bank that got bought out by um a New York City Wall Street-based bank, and he was moved gonna move to the C level uh in this in this global bank as well. And um he could have walked away with a big chunk of change, and he was all excited to go do something in the um you know, in the Christian um ministry world. And like we do with all of our clients, we we encourage them to build what we call a personal board of directors. This is a a group of people, godly people who know who know you well, who love you, and are willing to shoot straight with you as you're trying to sort through, you know, should I stay or should I go? Right. And his pastor said something that rocked his world because he decided to put his pastor on his personal board of directors, which I think is a good move. And his pastor said to him, This isn't his name, but I'll just call him John. His pastor said, John, here's the way I assess the situation is you want to take the money and run. You want to get out of the stress in the viper pit of Wall Street, and you want to go to the comfy, cozy world of the church. I challenge you to stay in the viper pit and boldly declare your belief in Jesus Christ, and so boldly that your job is literally on the line every single day that you're just gonna irritate somebody in the power structure that's gonna fire you. Do you have that kind of courage? Wow. Now that's that's just one man speaking to another man, but that's a data point that that John, to continue the name, John um put into his prayers. And he ultimately decided, you know what, I I am supposed to stay in the marketplace. And so again, it's not which is better, it's which is more obedient.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And and it's kind of a catch-22 because we need we need mission-minded, ministry-minded people that have a revelation of who they are in God, who you know, their their uh Ephesians 2 10 calling. They know who they are, they know what those good works are that God has has laid out for them to do. Or so we need those people, but but I think mm we don't need people to go into quote marketplace ministry that aren't really doing ministry at all. I mean, it's really just um, you know, it's it's just sort of it's selfish, it's self-absorbed, it's really just sort of building up our own personal kingdom. And we definitely don't need people coming out of the marketplace that have that mindset to go into the church world. Because if you're not making disciples in the marketplace, like why would somebody make disciples in in church? And we, you know, we don't just need like CEOs, uh administrators to do, you know, to grow churches. We need disciples to be made because ultimately that's what the Great Commission is all about. And so whether that's in for-profit or nonprofit, I mean, the the noble calling is to make disciples. I mean, to to actually carry out that great commission uh, you know, wherever it might be.

SPEAKER_01

Well, and that and that's a good point, Darren, is is is that is you know a big part of the Great Commission. That is a great commission. The big part of what we're trying to help people do is to understand their role in that. So not everybody is designed to be uh full-time face-to-face discipler. Uh, I think everybody should be witnessing and sharing sharing the truth uh personally and one-on-one, but maybe it's not a full-time role in their business or in the church. But to understand what other skills they have, you know, we we had this morning on um on a private webinar for our for the halftime institute clients, a gentleman by the name of Paul Saber, um, who Paul is he owns 50 Panera Brechises, um, but he's also the CEO of the Isakar movement, bringing the word to the unreached people groups of the world. Um, so there's two things going on here. Number one is um it's not either or, it could be in parallel. Number two is what he's learning about himself as he's been doing this for many years, is that he's still a CEO. Now he's he's not like down in the trenches running some of the discipleship programs or the chaplaincy programs to his 4,000 employees and his 50 Paneras, but he is using God's gift at the macro level to run that operation to crank out money. To crank out money to help fund different evangelism initiatives to provide jobs for the families of these 4,000 people and to put them in an environment where if they want to grow in their faith and knowledge of Jesus, it's available to them. He doesn't force people to do that. And so he's he's learned what he's good at, what he's not so good at. He's learned that he kind of needs both marketplace and ministry to stay sharp in both environments. And he just is over time through through his personal board of directors, and as he shared, his his wife has an incredible amount of discernment, and he's given her a credible amount of latitude to speak that discernment into his life, that she's she's helped him stay sharp on on managing this, you know, this um you know in parallel ministry marketplace life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I love that. I love that both and approach. And I'm curious, it it brings up another question in my mind. Uh, what are some of the the trends that you're seeing? I mean, one question I had is is do you are you seeing halftime sort of occurring earlier in a person's life? Because I mean the millennials from from what I understand, like they're willing to they're willing to just sort of live at home if it allows them to do what they're really passionate about, you know, what what they really feel like is most in line with with who they are, uh, whether they're a Christian or or not. Are you finding that halftime it is happening earlier where people just aren't willing to go through uh you know a full career in a job that they just hate and really aren't experiencing fulfillment, especially as a Christian, not really having a sense that this is what God's called me to do?

SPEAKER_01

I'm absolutely seeing it. Both both for Christians and non-Christians alike. And I think there's two macro movements that are driving that. Number one is for the millennials, I mean, they they basically looked at mom and dad slaving away for years and and then lose 80% of their portfolio in 2008-2009.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And so they're sitting there saying, huh. So so what do you do? You you double down, you start cranking out the money again, you watch the stock market to go to 18,000, you build it all back up, and then we have a crash in 2020. So they're starting to catch on that maybe their parents have been barking up the wrong tree. I think the other thing that's going on is that it's very PC to volunteer. I mean, it's cool. It's cool to volunteer, it's uncool to be greedy. My generation, yeah, my generation was built on greed as good. It was, you know, Gordon Gecko in Wall Street. And so there's a difference. Ethos to that to that in um generation, but here's the deal. Here's the deal. I think that they could be, some in some cases, they could be barking up the wrong tree, thinking that their joy and their per peace and their freedom is by is by becoming a very loving person.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_01

And that they're going to go serve and they're going to go change the world. But again, if they're not connected to the vine, the joy of that is going to be just as empty as the joy of chasing the Almighty Buck.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01

And so the question is, you know, what's really what's driving their behavior? Is it is it a desire to grow closer to God and to glorify him and to pass his love on? Or is it desire to sort of, you know, um turn their nose up at the silliness of their parents' generation and kind of chuckle beneath their breath breath and take sort of a moralistic high ground and say, you know, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go do a Peace Corps type of life. Um and so they're they're in, you know, again, I'm these are broad sweeping stereotypes, right? Sure. But but there, I think there are some people that are up for a rude awakening to say, boy, my life of my life of secular love and service and sacrifice is leaving me empty.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Powerful, powerful. You know, it it uh to me it seems that halftime is is basically the the pivot from where uh that marks your sense where where the moment when God calls you, where you really discover who God has called you to be. Is that is that an accurate statement?

SPEAKER_01

It is, it is, you know, and this is the thing about halftime. If you really look at what halftime is at the at the core of it, we are a discipleship organization.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And and um there's a there's a lot of churches out there, just at the local church level um globally, that are rediscovering um discipleship as such a critical part of building the church and building people's joy and mobilizing um mobilizing people for the kingdom. But there seems to have been a pretty significant period of time here in the last, say, 15 years with the growth of the megachurch, with the with the massive seeker orientation of the megachurches, that the art of discipleship had been lost for a while. Now, I think it's being rekindled, and and um, and halftime is certainly you know just huge on discipleship, but we also have a particular niche. What we find is that the people that are most receptive to discipleship are people at midlife. There's just there's something in, I mean, you can see it in places in scripture where there's this point in time, I mean, King Solomon had it, um, where where just the the pathway I'm on just ain't doing it for me anymore. And and I'm stuck. And for halftimers, it could be, you know, attaining a big lifelong goal that they finally hit and was just as empty as empty could be. Or it could be, you know, I've been building this this business forever and all of a sudden it's tanked. And now what do I do? And so there's there's just something about the receptivity of the psychological transition that happens in people's hearts at midlife that make them um you know ready for discipleship. And that's so we're trying to bring not just discipleship, like to get your assignment, but to bring very wise life coaching to get your life in alignment with that assignment. We the danger is that somebody goes off and does something before maybe repairing their marriage or or paying attention to their kids or paying attention to their finances. And so, you know, halftime really is trying to get people to three key places in their life greater joy, greater impact, greater balance. And our mechanism for doing that is is one part discipleship, one part life coaching. And the the target audience that seems most hungry for it is is the successful person in midlife transition.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I mean, because they've already seen what doesn't work, and so I mean, that's uh uh unfortunately the point where we have to come to usually is trying everything but God and then finally just just surrendering. And um, but I I love the mission, I love what halftime is doing. I mean, because it really is all about discipleship. It's it's not even about uh making churches, it's not about making money, it's not it's about making disciples. That's what the the Great Commission is is all about, and everything else uh might be a model, uh, a model to make that to make that happen. Um so so tell us, Jeff, where can people connect with you and with Halftime?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, just halftime.org. Go to halftime.org there and you can you can um take a look at what we do and how we do it and um you know reach out to us. Um, you know, we have a couple of people that are sort of on the front lines to to just just answer your questions um um to kind of our front door concierge to just listen to your story and get a sense of where you are in life and whether or not what we do could help you. If not, you know, we have a number of partner organizations that can support people around similar issues that we deal with. Um, so that's the best way to reach us.

SPEAKER_00

Excellent. Well, Jeff, as we wrap it up here, would you pray for our listeners about uh helping if anybody is uncertain of what their calling is, or maybe they uh they just they just really need to hear from God about is it nonprofit, is it for profit? Um just pray for that person. You got it.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. So, dear Lord, we just take a moment here, Darren and I, just to pray uh for the folks that are listening. There's just there's probably somebody out there that's really stuck, Lord. And I would just pray and ask expectantly that you would give them clarity, that that you would turn up the volume in your voice, in their hearts, and their ears. And we know that you're not a God of confusion, you're a God of confidence and clarity. And um, I just ask that you would speak to people in that way. I would also ask, Lord, that you would just stir up an appetite for people to draw closer to you, for people to um to relinquish the grip on some of their identity issues and on their businesses, to just hold on to those loosely so that you can guide them through that. And Lord, ultimately, that um they would experience the full measure of the love that you have for them, then how they would pass that on to others in the world would just be as easy as breathing. And so, Lord, we know that's your ultimate intention. It's all over Scripture. Just please let that truth become very natural and very obvious in people's lives. We pray all these things in your son Jesus' name. Amen.

SPEAKER_00

That's all for this week. Thanks so much to Chris Beer and Dr. Jim Harris for taking the time to leave encouraging reviews for the Theology of Business podcast on iTunes. If there's a topic you'd like to hear discussed on Theology of Business, feel free to reach out to me personally on Twitter at Darren Sherry or through theology of business.com. I'd love to hear your feedback and I would especially love to hear testimony of what God's doing in your business. Thanks for listening to God in your business.