Miracles in the Marketplace (w/ Matt Flegler)

On this episode, Darren sits down with Matt Flegler to hear Matt’s astonishing accounts of God’s miraculous power at work in business. 

Thanks for listening, and keep partnering with God in your business.  

And don’t forget to check out our sponsor at HighBridgeBooks.com. And feel free to contact me directly at darren@highbridgebooks.com if you’re interested in writing, publishing, and selling a book.   

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Welcome to the Christian Business Leader Podcast, where Christ following business leaders explore God's will and ways for business. This show is a ministry of the Center for Christianity and Business at Houston Christian University and features conversations with today's Christ-centered business leaders who are representing Christ faithfully in the business world. I'm your host, Darren Scheer, and if you want to make your work, leadership, and company's culture more Christ-centered, you've come to the right place. It's cairns. It's cairns. Spelled Cairns, in case uh you're looking at a map and trying to figure out where that is, um and and you can't spell like me. So Matt is an entrepreneur, founder of Salt and Light Wealth Academy and author of How to Hear God at Work. He helps Christian business leaders and entrepreneurs partner with God to achieve success without the hustle and grind. Through his coaching courses and prophetic mentoring, Matt equips people to hear God's voice, align their kingdom purpose, and experience breakthrough in business, family, and life. His message is simple heaven has a strategy for your work. And when you partner with God, you can walk with clarity, peace, and supernatural results. And if that wasn't enough, he was also in a Christian reggae band in high school. Um Matt, did you still play uh reggae? Were you the singer?

SPEAKER_00 1:58

What what what was your role in uh um was definitely yeah the whitest guy on the in the in the band. I played saxophone, so that was um yeah, it didn't get me singing.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

Okay, gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

And so you you dropped to a lot of Bob Marley Yeah, so we we uh did use Bob Marley, UB40, uh some of those bands and rephrased them into like Christian lyrics, and uh yeah, we were a bit of a hit when it came, not so much the students, it kind of wasn't their style, but the uh the teachers loved it, and we were booked in for uh different gigs uh throughout the year. So it was uh it was it was cool.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

Yeah, yeah, I love reggae music, it's it's so relaxing. Um, yeah, and it's really fascinating how much of Bob Marley's music was about Jesus and and had such a biblical foundation for it. I think you know, some uh some strange theology uh that you know crept its way into the whole idea of Rastafarianism and everything, but um, there's some really powerful God-honoring lyrics in there. Um, Matt, welcome to the Christian Business Leader Podcast. Um I'm excited to have you and have this conversation halfway around the world. Yeah, thanks, Darren. Yes, good to have a chat. Yes, sir. So when did you first realize God wants to be involved in your work and business?

SPEAKER_00 3:38

Yeah, uh growing up Christian and been around entrepreneurship, family of farmers, and you know, knew the value of hard work and wasn't long after we uh got married 20 years ago, celebrating a 20-year this year. And uh my dad was semi-retired, sold the farm, and said, Hey Matt, uh you're really good when it comes to property, uh, studied landscape architecture when I went to university. So why don't we do some property development together? And dad had done some like unit developments and uh different type of things on the side whilst you know still running his uh banana farm. And we started that journey and I never I kind of avoided business for so long. Dad's such a strong entrepreneur, so why don't you do business school? Why don't you do this? I don't want to do that. I just want to do what I what I'm passionate about. And uh the and then eventually he he won and I went, oh let's let's do this and dive straight into doing property development and experienced a lot of success. And a lot of the success was wonderful, you know, uh doing some big projects and uh they were profitable. Learned a lot in how all the that property world works and finance and business and and still having a deep connection with God. Uh did you know, growing up Christian, but also was you know, even leading an internship program at church and you know, discipling as we were passionate about discipleship. And but enduring, you know, everything's fine until things aren't fine. And one of the projects that we did was our largest project, uh, this is back in 2010. Uh it uh we nicknamed it Project from Hell uh because it just came with so many issues and so many problems. And we eventually ran out of money uh and we had other partners in the project as well. And I realized that I looking back that my identity was so tied into my bank account balance, and it was so tied in that you know, imagine being on that roller coaster from you know, hey, I've got we've got money in the bank, now we don't. And that that can affect uh just flow into every aspect of life. And so I had this bad view set that I uh if I was successful, then that means God loves me and God's blessing me because He loves me. I'm I'm a good son. And the opposite became even worse: that if things aren't going well, the bank account balance is low, uh, nothing's working, then this is God punishing me. And but when that, you know, a lot of times we go, well, we'll just break out of that, we'll work harder, we'll we'll, you know, we'll we'll be a good person, we'll we'll work our uh little tookers off to get up to to make things happen, and you get on top, and like, oh God's God's pleased with me again, you know. And but with this project, it got worse and worse and worse. To the point of uh I was contemplating suicide, I was contemplating uh doing all those things to go, okay. Maybe my life is not worth living. And I did you know the Lord at this time?

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Did both you and did both you and your dad know the Lord at this time?

SPEAKER_00 7:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. We're uh both both walking in that path, being around, yeah, Christian serving, you know, going on mission trips, doing all that, uh, you know, having having prayer and consideration, but just that wrong mindset around around business. And it just really knocked me for six and uh knocked me out.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

Yeah, as as you're unpacking this, I just want to uh jump in there a little bit here, uh, because I can relate to this, you know, when you make a decision in business that is risky and and it turns, you know, turns out to go sideways, and you start to really uh beat yourself up. And like one of the things that I would say to myself is uh Darren, you're just not wise. Um you lack you lack wisdom. Um and and and it can you can really start to tear away at your your identity because wisdom is something we we know comes from God, and it's like if if this business deal doesn't appear to have God's blessing on it and go the way I want it and the speed and the outcome that I want, then I just lack the wisdom of the Holy Spirit. Um is which is not sometimes that's probably true. Uh I mean, did you feel like that was true in your situation?

SPEAKER_00 9:00

To a degree, yeah. It was it it was uh am I missing something? Have I have I missed you, God? You know, there's something, you know, I'm not in I'm not in the flow anymore, I'm not feeling you. Uh and it came more to understand that, you know, I followed the principles, uh, you know, I'll followed, you know, I was a stickler for discipline, religious duty, reading my Bible, you know, every day, have set point where like okay, I'm dedicating prayer, devotion time, worship, doing all the right things that I thought well, that's what it means to you know be a good Christian and connect with God, uh, but not seeing the results, not seeing the the overflow or the joy or and and still thinking I'm not good enough, I'm not worthy. Uh you know, that that whole psyche just started to play in. And it was at that point in the lowest moment that you know I said to my wife, I said, Hey, you know, decided to be vulnerable, guys. That's a good thing. And uh just said, Hey, this is what I'm thinking. These are the thoughts, these are the wrong thoughts I've had. And you know, she held my hand and she said, Listen, it's just money. Uh, I love you, I want to move around. And the kids were quite young at that stage. And I remember laying on the couch, she said, I'll look after dinner, I'll I'll take care of dinner. You just you just relax. I even in myself, I couldn't relax. I just felt so defeated and so uh so rejected that I just I laid on the couch and I uh I just felt I'm not even low enough, not even worthy to lay on the couch, I'll lay on the floor. So I rolled off the couch and laid on the floor, and and uh and I it's like God's gonna yell at me. So and it was in that moment I just just heard like a just like a yelling at me, saying, get up! Get up! What? Like a blob that sort of flopped my way up, and I went, Oh, go watch TV and take just get the distraction off all the thoughts that I'm battling with. Put on uh the TV, and I don't know if you remember TiVo back in those days, and I had like a TV evangelist recordings on, because here they're on at really wee hours of the morning. Uh so I recorded, and when I get a chance, just watch them. And I went, oh, that should be encouraging. So I pressed play, and the first thing he says in front of the camera, straight in the camera, he says, get back up on your faith. He said it's like three times, get back up on your faith, get back up in your faith. I'm like, so I'm like, turn the TV off and like shut up. Yeah. And I and I I think I went to bed, and that was a Friday, and then Saturday was a blur. And then both my wife and I just said, God, you know what we're going through. You know this is just not working. We need to hear you. Because if we don't hear you, we know we're not going to make it, but we just need your voice. And we just put the put the challenge out. We went to church that morning, arrived late. I don't like arriving late, but just with young kids, it happens, right? And so we we shimmy down the back and sat down the back, and it was right at the end of worship, and they were transitioning over to whoever's going to preach and the transition speaker. And I remember it, she just spoke straight out of Psalm 37. So, commit your ways to the Lord, trust also in him, and he shall bring it to pass. That phrase, he shall bring it to pass, just went like a bolt of lightning through my heart. And same as my wife, and we just started crying and went, Okay, God's got this. Don't know what, I don't know how, don't know why he's gonna make it through. Don't know all the implications, but just that assurance that we're gonna get through it. And that week it was like that was put to the test. Uh got a phone call from our accounts saying, hey, we've run out of money. We can't rob Peter to pay Paul anymore, and all the partners had run out of money. Oh, okay, God, you said you're gonna bring this past, you're gonna bring it to pass. We'll commit our ways, God. We surrender, commit my ways to you. So, you know, still battling with the fear, still battling with the the worry and the and the pressure. So, well, God, here we are.

SPEAKER_01 13:44

We've got to be so you're at the point where you can't even go into debt any any further debt. Is this the point you're talking about? Yeah. Like the bank, nobody's gonna lend to you anymore at this point. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

Yeah, because our project was held up because the banks wouldn't give us money. Uh it was there was a bigger, bigger thing at play going on, and it just happened. The banks just said we're not lending to property developers, we're just not. So, and they had huge conditions on if we're gonna give you the money, it's gotta meet all these like uh unbelievable conditions.

SPEAKER_01 14:18

You have to have I was reading in your book that you've got to be a hundred percent pre-sold uh in order to get the loan. Yeah. I mean that's that's that's no risk right there.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

Yeah, it's no of course I get the money for that. Yeah, there's no risk in that for the bank. Exactly. So yeah, we looked at all the creative funding aspects we could, and we were just at the dead end, bro. So there's there's nothing else. We've tried everything. It's even employed consultants to help us through it. No, even they were coming up drice and said, Well, God, you're gonna have to show us. And so in that moment, I nothing else. I went down to one of the kids' bedrooms. They weren't there, they were kindergarten or something, and uh just closed the door, laid out on the floor, and just said, God help, where's this four thousand dollars gonna come from? Could have been four million dollars for you know the pressure that was we were under. And it was seriously not not like it might have been five minutes, maybe max. And I was just just praying, God help, help, help. And I hear uh in just in my thought, check this tax. It's called Q Leave, it's a state government tax, and you prepay that tax so that the council and the or county will give you the approval so you can go and build it's a prepaid tax. Uh and he said, check your Q leaf. I'm like, God, I need to find money. Like, what's that got to do with money? You know, so check your Q leaf. Like it just got louder and louder. So I went, all right. I went up uh to upstairs, opened my laptop, found the calculations for this, and as I looked through it, realized we had overpaid that tax. And it was about 12 months ago that we paid that. Oh, I'm not really familiar with that type of tax as well. It's like, you know, it's kind of like, oh, once you pay it, you know, you know, that's it, you walk away. Didn't know you could do refunds or anything. And because we worked pretty diligently over that year to reduce their expenses and find better ways to build it and uh without compromising on quality. And it was like, well, we've done really, really well. So hang on. But I kind of did a recalculation and it was around that amount, it was around 4,000, a little bit over 4,400 uh was the difference. Well, that's that's that's pretty that's pretty coincidental. It's like just above 4,000. So I called up the tax agent, uh, that department, and someone answered within two rings. Uh okay, it wasn't a recorded message, like, hello. It's like, oh hello. I went, is that Q leaves? And she's like, yeah, it is. I went, oh, well, okay. Um, I was expecting a recorded message or you know, press one for this person or that person. She goes, No, no, uh, well, how can I help you? And I explained the situation. She said, Oh, that's all right. Just uh resend the same form back with the the proper amount that you've worked out and your with your bank account details, and I'll wire you the difference. And I'm like, Oh, wow, okay. Uh how long will that take? She said, I'm the one that does the wiring, and this is the day that I do it. So if you can get it to me by in the next 20 minutes, I'll make sure it's in this payment run. Oh wow. I'm like, wow.

SPEAKER_02 17:59

So and it was in our account the next day. Oh my goodness. That's the government. That's the government. So that's a miracle. Wow. I'm like, God, I mean if this is this is wild. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_00 18:18

That then led on to well, God, okay, great. That fixed our need for that month. What about the project? Yeah, how how are we gonna get out of this mess? And uh he led me through a series of uh just building my faith. And I would I would pray over the project, uh, God help what what needs to do. And it wasn't any different to what the strategies we were putting in place. It was no different strategies because we were we were very experienced developers, so there's nothing wrong with that. Um, but he was building my faith and building my trust. Kind of like looking back, I didn't really have a faith problem, I had a trust problem. I knew I could do this, but I didn't know that God wanted to do it. And when he walked us through that whole process, even to the point that he showed me pictures of how the project would look. So the first picture I got was the property was uh construction machinery was going. And so, well, that means we've got our construction funding. Like, oh God, yeah, I can see that picture in my imagination. I can see construction machinery, and I was paying very close attention to the the machinery was actually uh the the color of the machinery was all orange. I'm like, okay, and that picture never left. It wasn't like I look at it again and say, okay, God, what's what's what do you see this? How do you see this project? And they're like that, those colors never changed. It was just orange, orange all the way through. So I'm like, well, that means that no, the banks weren't giving us the funding yet. And then uh we'd work pretty diligently, we'd keep getting our pre-sales, and they'll go, God, what's you know, show me the project. Then you'd show me the road finished because we're doing land subdivision, the road's finished, and I'm like, well, that's kind of it. That's the project finished for us because we don't get into the houses, we just sell the land and then move on to the next one. And but no, still no funding. And then uh it was a few months would go by and pray again and say, God, uh, show me. And the picture would change, and it would change to seeing uh all the uh lots sold, like all the lot signs, the real estate signs, all on the lots, and it all said sold stickers all over them. And I'm like, oh, cool, that's it. Like that's we're done, we're done. That's that's completed. Yeah, thank you, Lord. We'll receive that. That's oh, let's walk in that, and still still no funding, still haven't started anything. Okay, we'll keep going. But this time, things at hope, green shoots of hope are starting to fill the things are starting to move, and and talking with banks, and they just this that they're singing a different tune now for some reason. Like, oh okay, hang on, this is good. You weren't you want didn't want anything to do with us now now you're talking to us. This is good. And I got to a point where I saw, I said, God, what what is come on, we we need this funding. This has got dragged on for too long. This is like nearly two years, uh, and trying to just live on the smell of an oily rag. And the picture changed, and I saw all the houses built, people living in the houses, and like a massive community, uh, all you know, people walking on the street and just like a finished community. And in that that day, the bank called and said, Congratulations, you've got your funding. So it was that moment of God sees things in completion and he wants to partner. So the story didn't end there. So we uh had worked with understanding the the excavators and the machinery was all orange. And during that time we try to work out different ways that we could get going, you know, doing a uh the construction partnership, vendor finance with a uh with some a construction mob that they would come in, get things started, and as momentum happened, we'd get the funding, we'd pay them off. We worked of all these different creative ways and financing, none of them really worked. And we'd meet with these contractors, and because the the picture, the first picture God showed me was orange colored machinery. I got I was meeting at one of the offices and looking around, all they had pictures of their machinery around their office, and they were all white. And I said, Hey, you got any orange ones? You know? And the guy's like, No, I don't have any orange ones. I'm like, oh, okay. And uh thankfully, our engineer and our partners, all Christian, and we walked out and had that meeting, and it didn't, they they weren't interested in doing the type of arrangement. They looked at me and said, What did you mean when you said orange-colored machineries? Like, we know you're smarter than that, Matt. Like, what that's a really random question to ask. So then I invited them in on the journey, like, hey, I'm I'm praying and believing, and I saw orange-colored machinery, and they're like, Okay, okay, cool, all right. So they kept that to the back in line. So when we got our funding in place, uh, engineer called and said, Hey, I've been working with these other contractors on other projects, they're really good. I've given it to them, they've priced it up. I think these guys could be the guys. Let's actually meet them and see if we do the handshake before we go to the contract. So we teed up a time, met with them, sitting down with them, going through all the plans, and partners were there and they're you know, nitpicking all the different things. As you good business people do that, okay, what about this? What about that? And we get to the end, and one of the guys, the partners, goes, Hey, mate, this is the last question we've got for you. And if you get this wrong, there's no deal. And you think these big guys in high vis shirts, you know, they've got beards, you know, they're like just these big burly, you know, salt of the earth kind of men, you know. And so, okay, pressure's on. And they said, Matt, asking your question. Oh, that question. I said, What color's your machinery? And they're like, look, like really looked really weird at me, like, what? And they're like, um, I think they're all orange. And all the partners are like, great answer. So we stood up and you know, pulled the hand out and said, Let's shake. And they shake the deal, and they roared laughing, like, I've never shook on a deal based on the color of my machinery. But then that opened the conversation up to say, what did that mean? And explain the journey with them. Like, wow. I said, So you are an answer to prayer. You know, God wanted you in this project before uh we even met you. So yeah. And that was just a beautiful introduction relationship, but God's more interested in relationship and connection than he is about the final outcome. Sure. So we got to walk from and start to disciple them and you know, really walk through that journey.

SPEAKER_01 25:36

Um, yeah, that was yeah, yeah. So you had a a group of it wasn't just you involved in this, but you had a whole team of people uh that were walking through this with you. Um on this show, we believe that the primary purpose isn't just primarily to make a profit or to make money to donate to Christian ministries, but to make disciples of Jesus. Um, and so how how did you see disciples made and have you seen disciples made through the the doing of business and and this specific journey that you've been on?

SPEAKER_00 26:12

Yeah, it's it's inviting your suppliers, your stakeholders, your your customers, uh, the one your partners, your employees into the journey and allowing them not being it uh I use this lightly, but it's like not using Christian ease. So because the world you know you doesn't get some of that, but it's being the hands and feet of Jesus and you know, being love in every situation, you know, uh it's demonstrating his heart. And like I love it when the miracles happen and when there's like just wow, yeah, God showed up. This there's no way that this could have ever come through unless God showed up. And the staff and team and customers and stakeholders were involved in the process and they go, Wow, isn't God good? Yes, God's good, you know, and invites them further into the let's talk, let's have a coffee, let's let's uh unpack this and start to uh walk in that space. And some of these guys that have been connected to for years are still walking with God uh because they've seen the goodness of God through with you know demonstrated that um and just being real uh and confronting what needs to be confronting and uh moving in that space. Uh, but also you know, the ability to disciples then then these guys making disciples, uh and just with the demonstration of God's God's real and he wants to tell you he's real and show you that he's real. Uh just the other day, one of my clients uh he uh um selling their house. Just him and his wife selling their house, and they employed an agent that happened to be a friend. Friend knows that they're Christian. The uh the agent's very uh overtly not a Christian and says, I don't want nothing to do with your God. Um I'm a I'm an atheist. He said, Okay, that's fine, but you're really good at what you do, and we really feel that you're the right agent for this. And so did his research, the agent came back and said, This is what I believe the price is. They're like, Yep, great, that's fine. They went ahead, did the open home that weekend, got a few people in, uh one selling it, the him and his wife sat down and my client, they they they sat down and and they went, Hang on, is this the right price? And they felt God tell them another sixty thousand dollars on top. And so, wow, that's that's a bit more than then. I don't think this agent will like that. So anyway, they called up the agent and said, Hey, uh you know we're Christians, you know we hear from God, we really feel this is the price that we need to accept for it. The agent was a little bit mad and it's like, What? No way, like there's no way we'd get that price. He's like, just listen, no pressure, just go with me on it. So he so they so he did. He goes, Okay, well, if your God's real, then this is gonna happen. So he gets off the phone, the agent then says and prays, he says, Well, God, if you're real, then the next person I talk to about this property is gonna pay that price. Next minute, the phone rings. Wow, and it was a neighbor that went to the open home and said, I love it, I'm a property investor, I'm in the area, I'd love, I really want to buy this property. So the agent goes, Well, I know if you paid this price, they would take it in a heartbeat. He's like, deal.

SPEAKER_02 30:07

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 30:09

So then the agent's going, I've got you the money, like the same. This is like he's just flabbergasted. I've got you the money. I'm starting to believe. Like, how can we have a coffee? Can we catch up? Because I want to talk more about this. This is like this is blowing my mind. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Let's let's talk. So I love how God wants to use our business to demonstrate his goodness, but then it shows to the world like, how can I not serve a God that's so good and that loves me and that wants a deep connection and relationship with me? And it takes all the pressure off. You're just getting to walk with people and just loving them well.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

I love how the marketplace is a is a place where you know it can be very high stakes, but the Lord just uses these stakes and and these situations that we find ourselves in to just surprise us with his creativity and his ability to uh show up, if we will just invite him in, um that he will show up even in the in the numbers and the and the the mundane tasks and and all of these relationships that we have in the marketplace. Um that's such a powerful story. Um, and so you've got a book, Hear God at Work. Um it's uh well it's how to hear God at Work, correct? Yeah, yeah, How to Hear God at Work. The the podcast is hear God at Work.com forward slash podcast. That's how you can go subscribe to that. Um, but tell us what uh people can expect from this book because we're gonna encourage people to go hear more from you.

SPEAKER_00 32:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thanks, Darren. Uh the book really outlines some of that journey I just spoke about. And but it's done in a way that is practical, applicable, you you know, full of ways that you can go away and do it now. It's not just one, you know, oh, that's a great story, that's great for you, Matt, but um that's not for me. So no, come on, you bring it, bringing heaven to earth in your world right now, and start to practice it, start to do it, start to recognize how God speaks, how you're wired, how you're uniquely wired to actually tap in and tune your heart to hear him and then go and do it. And it's not just like, oh, that's great theory. So no, it's full of testimonies, some of mine, some of clients, some of people I know, just family stories, if I could say it that way, of how people have heard God's voice, partnered with him, trusted in the midst of uh uncertainty and doubt, but choose to believe anyway, and then see how God moves. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 33:09

Love it. All right, how to hear God at Work is the book you can get on Amazon. Um, also at Matt's website, saltlightwealth.com, and subscribe to the podcast as well. Anything else, Matt, you want to say about how people can connect with you and hear more from you?

SPEAKER_00 33:29

Yeah, if you go to the website saltlightwealth.com, there's the free sample of the book, give you a taster of what it what it is. Um, you know, try before you buy, test drive it. If it's something that you like, then definitely can chat more of other aspects that we offer. Uh we also go into businesses and and uh I've got a team of prophetic people that we get to just bless businesses as well. Uh so we do a lot of that and like to train others to really hone in on his voice and go with those instructions and see not just the strategies come to pass or great strategies, but it's that deeper connection with God and how that will affect every aspect of life, your relationships at home, your relationships at work, and just walking from a place of peace and rest rather than hustle and grind.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

Love it. Matt, thank you so much for sharing your story, your journey, your wisdom with us, and uh for helping us to um uh uh stand up on our on our own faith. Isn't that what the preacher said? Stand up on your faith, give back up on your faith. I love that. I love that. Somebody's feeling beat down right now. Um might not even just be a business matter, um, but get back up on your faith. Um, thank you for that reminder and for spending time with us today.

SPEAKER_00 34:58

Thanks, Dave.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

Thanks for listening to this episode of the Christian Business Leader Podcast. Be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and tune in for the next episode as we continue exploring God's will and ways for business.