Business Leaders in Church History (w/ Dr. Charlie Self)

On this episode, Church history professor Dr. Charlie Self discusses key Christian leaders who have impacted the marketplace for Christ throughout Church history.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Access more. Welcome to the Christian Business Leader Podcast, where Christ following business leaders explore God's will and ways for business. This show is a ministry of the Center for Christianity and Business at Houston Christian University and features conversations with today's Christ-centered business leaders who are representing Christ faithfully in the business world. I'm your host, Darren Scheer, and if you want to make your work, Leadership and Companies Culture more Christ-centered, you've come to the right place. On this episode, we're joined by Dr. Charlie Self. Dr. Charlie is a professor of church history and leadership at Assemblies of God Theological Seminary in Springfield, Missouri. He has over four decades of experience reintegrating church, academy, marketplace, and the public square, helping people see that all domains of service can be service in the kingdom of God. Dr. Charlie, welcome to the Theology of Business Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

It is a delight to be with you and uh looking forward to this uh exploration together.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Excellent. Well, I'm excited to have you. And I've been eager to do an episode on the topic of church history highlighting the marketplace and folks who have been marketplace people and theologians and preachers who have spoken on marketplace issues because it almost seems like uh the idea of serving God in the business world is sort of uh a modern something that we just sort of came up with all of a sudden. Uh, but it's it's goes really all the way back to uh to Christ and discipling his followers on fishing boats and in those marketplace settings. So I'm excited to have this conversation with you. Uh first question I want to ask to help our listeners get to know you a bit better is when did you first realize God uh wants to be involved in the marketplace?

SPEAKER_00 2:06

Well, I think I had a general sense of Colossians 3:17. Whatever you do in word or deed, do it all for the glory of God. So I want to give honor to my early days as a Christian, to the discipleship and love of the local church. But there was still that gap between sacred and secular, between, you know, kind of doing work and the real work for God. And so my epiphany came through suffering. I wish I could tell you I had some glorious mountaintop, but it actually came through a difficult chapter in 1987. I was 28 years old. We had experienced significant spiritual abuse at the hands of bad leadership on the East Coast. We limped our way back to the West Coast, but I was pretty excited. I was promised classes to teach and a new church plant to lead. So I thought, okay, we'll recover pretty quickly. I had two little babies and six dollars to my name, but I was ready to go. And the week we arrived on the West Coast, the classes were canceled and the church was decertified. And suddenly I am finding myself working five jobs. And um, you know, it's okay to send out resumes for being a pastor, being a professor, but I found myself in workplaces I never expected to, and suddenly realized most of my colleagues for most of history and in most lands have worked more than one job. And then I had to realize that there was no secular work. So I was running a gas station, selling stationery, teaching in three different Bible colleges, serving the church. And all of my clergy friends were praying me back into the full-time ministry. And that's also when that language left me. And I realized it's great when you're paid full-time for what you love. But um much of life is going to be working in spaces we don't expect and bringing God's glory and goodness to those spaces. And then leap forward five years, I began to be a consultant, um, not just for nonprofits, but for businesses and lending some of my skill there. And I remember when my boss said, Charlie, um, we got to have a budget and make money on this. We can't take an offering. And uh I both mechanics and venture capitalists, consultants and small business owners mentored me through the late 80s and 90s. And by ear by the early 2000s, I I was beginning to uh lead and teach in some of these faith and work spaces. So uh that's where this um understanding really emerged was through the difficult circumstances, and I began to really appreciate how hard people work uh in business. And we we want to give a shout out and honor to all good work, but as we're focused on those who start and run and help manage businesses, it was a it was quite a graduate education for me. And I want to give honor to the people that do that.

SPEAKER_01 5:07

Yeah, it it is sad that uh pastors that work in the marketplace are are almost sort of pitied. It's like, you know, if we could only just get you to work exclusively in this church, you know, wouldn't that be so fulfilling for everybody? And yet, I mean, look at the example of the apostle Paul, and we're gonna be looking at church history uh from a business perspective here today. But I mean, that was the example that Paul said. I was talking actually not long ago with a pastor from Greece, and he works three or four jobs, and there's like three or four different pastors that are kind of the rotating um preaching team for their Sunday service and everything. And he said, This is just this is common. This is this is part of our culture, and and it goes back to the example that Paul set, right?

SPEAKER_00 6:05

And it goes back even further. The rabbis that we hear about, the Levites in the Hebrew scriptures or the Old Testament, there were few full-time positions, they rotated. Um, and in fact, the great story of John the Baptist that was Zechariah's one shot at the temple in his lifetime. And so, though the Levites didn't have an allotted space, they still had allotted spaces within the other tribes, and they spent most of their time uh ranching, farming, working a business in between their rotations and in between their teaching. There were a few uh scholars that got paid well, but in general, most of God's work in the world through leaders have taken place through leaders who've had to work a variety of jobs.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

I love that you brought up rabbis. Uh, and that's why we brought you on this show, because you are the the historian. And and you're absolutely right. I mean, when you follow a rabbi, I mean, that's saying be covered in the dust of your rabbi, there's not much dust in a in a church building. And so that's all it is, is just following your pastor around um you know, as he as he preaches. I mean, there's not a lot that you're gonna really learn, but as you follow a a teacher around and see how they um how they relate to their spouse and see how they handle business and how they parent their kids and all, I mean, you're that's discipleship, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:34

Yeah, a disciple is a learner, a follower. And one of the things to really honor uh the women and men who've shepherded, pastored, and led, um, the until the very prosperous last couple of centuries, even priestly and pastoral parish work was out and about among people. And uh, even if you were supported at least minimally uh by the various uh economic engines, you were still out and about. And so uh it's only in the great prosperity of the last couple of centuries that we've had those kind of clerical careers in the traditional sense. But we also do have to deal with the reality that for a good part of church history, there was a great separation between the religious vocation and the secular vocation or business one. And that dichotomy has been a real challenge for much of the church in much of the world. And I'm grateful for the last couple hundred years of faith and work movements that have helped to bridge that gap.

SPEAKER_01 8:34

So, is there any sense in church history that business wasn't just a means to make money to fund quote unquote real ministry, but actually as a place for ministry? And the even that business itself can be a form of worship to God and ministry to others?

SPEAKER_00 8:51

There's certainly that in the in the New Testament. We find that even in those early chapters of the book of Acts, the generosity of a Barnabas can only come because uh Barnabas and his family were productive and able to sell that land and serve other people. Paul's entrepreneurship sustained his ministry for almost two years as he served and evangelized in the in the area around Corinth. So you have examples in the in the Old and New Testament of the goodness of diligent both labor and leadership, of entrepreneurship and the ethics that go with it, and um apostolic ministry being served by that. We also have examples, and um, one of the things that we find in the late third, early fourth century, um, so the late 200s, early 300s, we start having the emergence of monasticism. Well, positively, these become communities that help preserve the scriptures and ancient learning and evangelize, and some of them later on under Saint Benedict become self-sustaining economies to feed the poor. But you do have that gap, that gap between the monastic and the secular. But at the same time, um, you find that the evangelization of the Roman Empire and the evangelization of the Silk Road, all the way from the Middle East to the um eastern parts of China takes place primarily not only through apostolic missionaries, but through merchants, through business leaders. And in fact, it's Husto Gonzalez, the great historian of the church from Yale, who said that it's it was everyday ordinary people at in every class, culture, and type of work that were the key to the Christian movement growing. And we'll talk some more. I want to talk some more with you about this the millennia, the millennium of missions on the Silk Road, but it's primarily through merchants as well as monks.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

And yet, when I ask people, who are the heroes of the Christian faith? Uh, I have never once heard somebody mention a business person, uh, unless they sort of know where I'm going with the question, um, which sometimes they do. But typically the answer is going to be uh pulpit ministers, Billy Graham, um, or DL Moody and folks, folks like this, um, who certainly are heroes of the Christian faith, but business people are never mentioned. Are there any business people that come to mind throughout church history that are sort of the the lesser-known uh heroes of the Christian faith?

SPEAKER_00 11:38

Well, I can I I can give you some direct examples. The ones along the Silk Road from the 5th to the 15th century are sort of lost in the sands of times in terms of personalities. We have some evidence of the establishment of communities, churches, and businesses. So tradesmen in that sense. In fact, the reformation that many of our listeners celebrate, that kind of revitalization of certain aspects of the gospel, was primarily carried through booksellers and through business people throughout. Uh, but I but I think if I were to give a couple of heroes, I would give an example of Stephen Smith, uh, 19th century in Philadelphia. Stephen Smith was a free African-American business person and the richest man in Philadelphia. Uh, and his enterprises were very successful and they were burned down by the racist mobs, and he forced the city to rebuild the businesses. And Stephen Smith not only built up tremendous businesses in real estate, in mining, in manufacturing, he also established underground railway locations, the first leisure spot that African Americans could go and get a rest, as well as planting churches. And so this is before the Civil War, one of the great leaders, no, very few people have heard of, uh, but he did it for Christ, in Christ. My favorite is Sister Clara, who's called Queen of the Rockies, Clara Brown. And she was a freed slave in the 1850s, in her 50s, that came out during the gold rush in Colorado. And uh, she'd lost her family, came out, started a little business cleaning the jeans and overalls of the miners. But unlike others, Clara kept all the dust she shook out of the jeans and bought her first piece of property. And over the next 30 years, she acquired four mines, 30 pieces of real estate, planted the first Protestant church in the Rockies, the first old age home, and in her 80s was reunited with her family. She did all of this for the glory of God, and all of this as a businesswoman who didn't just see the problem, but saw the potential. And by the way, that's a great encouragement for the women and men listening in, especially if you're in the middle of running a business that's struggling. Uh, may God really help you not only to be real about the problems and work through them, but also see the potential of your innovation, creativity, and the and the goodness of what you provide. So those are two examples from the 19th century. I can go back to Methodist leaders uh under John Wesley. Uh Wesley said, earn all you can, save all you can, give all you can, and he helped to bridge that gap. The Moravians also had in their missionaries to Greenland and to South Africa people launching businesses. Uh, and so uh, and we can we can kind of do a reverse church history. The Anabaptists had to do the same thing. We now know them as the Mennonites today, but they were the most persecuted uh Reformation movement of all, 100,000 martyrs in the first 75 years, and yet they kept sending out emissaries two by two to share the gospel, and they did that as people with businesses who were supported by others who ran businesses.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

Um do you know that by the way, the Mennonites are again the less one of the lesser known uh groups among among God's people, and down in Paraguay, they run almost the entire dairy industry. Are you you're familiar with this?

SPEAKER_00 15:30

Yes, they they do the same thing in parts of the Moravians, who are their kind of cousins, and the Mennonites do the same thing in parts of Central America as well. Um, they they find fields that need entrepreneurship and ethics, and they help to run it. And what's interesting is um the wealth they accumulate uh goes right back into the mission, right back into the community. And so uh this is why I'm such a proponent of ethical entrepreneurship as opposed to central planning and economics, because people flourish when they have an opportunity to see, to see the opportunity, access to capital and the rule of law, and they can really flourish. So the Mennonites are one example. But by the way, we can go back to St. Thomas Aquinas and his successors at the University of Salamanca in Spain. So from the 13th to 15th century, they were talking about natural pricing, free markets, negotiating things in the market, and the ethics that must be underneath good business. And so it's not just a Protestant work ethic, it's a Christian work ethic that permeates uh everything. My other favorite entrepreneurial moment is the Benedictine order, starting in 529. And Saint Benedict reformed monasticism and made the communities integrate what Steve Garber calls aura and labora, prayer and work. And so the Benedictines had their offices of prayer and singing and such, a very sacrificial lifestyle, but realism about what they needed for clothing and for food and for working the fields. And it was these monasteries and others that actually often fed a starving population in the chaos of the post-uh Roman Empire West. So we have a rich history of entrepreneurship and business. And by the way, all of these churches, all of these monasteries, all of these emerging universities don't exist without people, without the economic engines underneath them, driven by people who want to glorify God.

SPEAKER_01 17:49

Right. And maybe the reason we don't know their names, like for example, is it's a travesty that we don't know Sister Clara. Uh, you know, it it's a travesty that we don't know about Stephen Smith and John Wanamaker and the Tappan brothers and and and many of these others that you've that you've mentioned, but maybe because they didn't have pulpits, maybe because they they weren't writing books and and they weren't orators and they weren't writers. And so we don't have a lot of what they said throughout the uh throughout the centuries hasn't just hasn't been preserved, even though they did great exploits for God. And and so maybe because we don't have their writings and their sermons, maybe that's why we kind of uh have low esteem, or we just are just ignorant.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

Much of it is ignorance. When I teach church history, I teach it as a tapestry, not only of all the different Christian traditions, but all the locations, cultures, vocations. One of my friends, uh Dr. Nathan Hitchcock, said, you know, we have justification and sanctification. We need to add vocation to our theological understanding that God places women and men in a variety of places of influence. Um, people have, you know, there's a wonderful university, Laterno University, but most people don't know the story behind it. Yeah. And one of the blessings for RJ Laterno is that at a revival meeting, he was told, serve God through work, through business. Um, there's another leading business person who prefers to remain anonymous in the late 20th century, who had a wonderful pastor, and in the middle of a revival meeting, he said, Oh, I think I'm supposed to be in ministry. And the pastor said, Well, we'll we'll pray about that, but I think you've got what it takes to make a difference in the world of business. And the result has been literally billions of dollars for the kingdom of God, channeled through someone who offered their work to God. And so I just I think um, I think part of my job is to keep, and I'm actually putting a book together called Back to the Future, and I'm trying to uncover the stories we don't know about. Uh, stories of our sisters in Christ who were the main influences on those who wrote the Nicene Creed, or stories of business leaders on the Silk Road. And I'm trying to bring those stories to light. And the good news is we have a lot more access that we can do that now.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

Yes. Tell us about the Waldensians.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

Oh, wonderful. I'm glad you brought them up. Peter Waldo, my my uh children's favorite book was Where's Waldo? Yeah. Uh a fun book of going through history or going through trying to find this little boy with the striped shirt. But Peter Waldo was a reformer in the Catholic Church in the 1100s, the late 1000s and 1100s. And it was a movement within the church to return to the simplicity and even poverty of the early church in the midst of all the pomp and prosperity of the emerging 11th and 12th century church. Now, thanks be to God, the uh Western Europe was coming out of a terrible time economically. The climate was improving, population was growing, there was greater prosperity, but there was also greater um, you know, uh church influence in some ways that weren't glorifying to God. And so Waldo and his friends said, We need the Sermon on the Mount. Now, by the way, these weren't all poor people. These were priests and merchants saying, We need to walk in the ways of Christ. We need to use whatever our hands find to do for God's glory, not just for ours. And they went to the trade fairs, they went to the villages and they began to preach not a new message, and they didn't say leave the church. They just preached this reform message, and specific crusades were declared against the Waldensians. And they actually survived in southern France and northern Italy all the way toward the Reformation when they joined with the Reformed movement and they survived. But uh, you might say that the Catholic Church was saying, where's Waldo for a century or more? But these were again priests and merchants, both lay people and clerical people, wanting and and and not shunning the creation of wealth, but wanting to use it for God's glory and not for just their own gain.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

Yeah. As a church historian, do you do you even think that this distinction between laity and clergy is helpful?

SPEAKER_00 22:48

I I've thought a lot about that. I think I think one should rightly distinguish those who have an Ephesians 4 calling to equip and empower, and those who have other callings who are so empowered to fulfill those. So I don't mind people saying I'm a credentialed minister, if by that you mean you're the servant leader of the of the body of Christ, helping people step into their vocations and occupations. So I think it can be helpful, but we've made it a huge gap. Um Brian Brian Fickert, Dr. Brian Fickert, uh, the famous author of When Helping Hurts and Becoming Whole, wonderful uh founder of the Chalmers Center at Covenant uh College, Brian said we have a kind of a Gnostic dualism in the West of the spiritual calling and the spiritual life, and then kind of everyday material life. And that is a problem from the third century all the way forward. So I'm not going to say get rid of clerical callings so much as I'll say place them in a Venn diagram with other callings in service of one another. Um and you know, Paul did tell Timothy, hey, you had hands laid on you, you have a real ministry of leadership. What we forget, especially in the American cult of leadership, is we forget that all leadership, whether it's in business, whether it's in government, whether it's in the church, is is service in behalf of those you're leading and empowering, not simply commanding. So I won't eliminate um, my name is still going to be Charlie. And if people want to put Dr. Or Reverend in front of it, I won't correct them. But what I'll do is everything I can to honor, and here's an important theological integration and distinction, to honor everyone's vocations and occupations. People are always more than their jobs, but it is our jobs where those callings work themselves out. Yeah. And so I think we want to just honor that.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

In practice, it seems like the distinction between clergy and laity, if we want to use those terms, is it it really has to do with uh like I was saying before, there's the there's the doers, but then there's there's also the teachers. And sometimes those are the same people. Uh sometimes those are the same people who are doing this stuff and writing about it and teaching and teaching others about it. It seems like almost that's kind of the distinction we're trying to make. Because of course, the word laity uh is it doesn't appear in the scripture, but yes, there are there are those who are teaching, uh, who have that because you you don't want just everybody teaching because it's gonna get really messy really quick. Um but but but every at the same time, everybody does teach, everybody does teach through their lifestyle. So maybe everybody does need to be teaching.

SPEAKER_00 26:01

Well, I think I think we can distinguish the kind of um the task of pedagogy line upon line. We can distinguish the oversight of the body of Christ for theological clarity and truth. You know, Paul does give charge to the Ephesian elders, for example, to kind of keep watch, to be alert, and and the qualifications to be a servant leader include holding the mystery of the faith in a good conscience. So I want to honor, and there's different polities listening to us, right? There are different church governments and polities. Um, and praise God, he's at work in all of them because the common, the common characteristic of every good leader, no matter what the church tradition, is the empowerment of others, the honoring of the callings of all of God's people. And in fact, it was Pope John uh Paul II that talk about talked about the apostolate of the laity and the fact that they are the primary agents by which the gospel is known to the world. So I think um all of our traditions contain that that seed, but um again, the it's just it we keep reinventing the threefold hierarchy. Uh at the top we put the monk and the missionary, in the middle we put the pastor and the priest, and then down below we put kind of the rest of us. And the fact is, it's more like a Venn diagram. God does seem to set apart people for certain catalytic teaching leadership functions. He sets aside others to oversee the local church, and then he then and then God's people themselves are gathered and scattered in their vocations. But these are permeable, these are permeable circles and membranes. And that's what 1987 was so important for me. Uh, running that gas station mattered. It wasn't what I wanted to do all my life. And by the way, I came up four cents short one day, and I was told that would be the last time I ever came up four cents short. Um, and realized, oh my goodness, no matter what the work is, it's it needs to be done for it needs to be done well. Uh I had I handed the owner the four cents, but um, you know, but the I I think um I think what happens is we get these movements that want to kind of eliminate clergy, but even when you do that, you're still going to need leadership. You're still going to need women and men who are called by God to nourish and to lead and direct. The key is can we do it well? And so one leader who was an iconoclast, kind of a radical, said, Well, the only thing you need to be a theologian in the 21st century is a login and a password. And I would say, no, no, the people who are the arbiters of good theology, we have a great tradition uh in all of our movements of making sure that we stay sound.

SPEAKER_01 29:00

Yeah, it seems like part of the confusion it has to do with not just who are the clergy or who are the ministers uh or the equippers of the the ministers, but but where does that actually take place? Where does that equipping actually happen? And you know, going back to the example that you shared starting out about the rabbis, I mean, that was that's the tradition, but it's somehow we would prefer to think of the equippers more through the lens of like a um a priest in the in the temple that uh was the only person that could go you know into the the holy place and and everybody else had to kind of stay out and just a very um just more of the hierarchical view of the ministry, you know, leadership structure. But um but the rabbi was in the trenches.

SPEAKER_00 30:08

Absolutely. And let me share some good news with you. Um, the enlightenment was a was brought some positive things in terms of some some areas of at least Christian and semi-Christian influence to human rights, but it also further dichotomized the study of religion and separated it from serving the church. And so, starting in the early 1800s, you start having this academic view of how we train ministers, and you almost separate kind of the academic from the practical. Frankly, gospel-oriented communities in every church tradition never gave into that completely. And so in the last 30 or 40 years, you've often heard people saying, Well, I didn't learn that in seminary, and they're not practical. In fact, our seminaries are doing a pretty good job. It's just that the world keeps changing. And so, what's going on now is there's there are many more residencies, apprenticeships, internships. And so many, many seminaries, like ours and others, are not only getting good information to ministers, but also creating the mentoring and community ethos by which that dust is picked up, by which the practices are learned. In fact, one of my friends runs a single-purpose ministry training, accredited college, but you have to be part of a local church community and be part of a cohort and and and actually doing the work while you're learning online. And so praise God, he keeps bringing back that integration that you're pointing out. And uh one funny thing about my story is I had such wonderful discipleship early as a Christian. I came to Christ at the convergence of charismatic renewal in the Jesus movement and had these amazing women and men of influence, but my academic career is completely different from most. Uh, I did my degrees at the University of California, Santa Cruz in history, religion, and philosophy. I did my theology at Berkeley at the Graduate Theological Union. So I didn't get my spiritual nurture from the educational institution that came from the local church. And um, I met the qualifications for ordination and such within my movement in the process. And so I'm giving honor to the people who mentored me. But for example, um, much of what I do today was caught, not just taught. I've never had a speech class, a preaching class uh in my formal. I've taught all of them, but I've never had one myself. I didn't have a single class in psychology, but I've read nearly a hundred books to help myself be a better pastor. And was I work with mental health all the time to help people's mental health? And so I think we just want to honor both the formal and informal ways that people are shaped. And my work the last 20 years has been answering the question: what does a healthy believer look like? That's a fundamental task I've been engaged in. And then what do healthy leaders look like? And the good news in church history, whether it's um Weecliffe and Huss bringing reform in the before the Reformation, the Moravians, the Methodists, there was a telegraph revival in 1857 in America. In the midst of a Wall Street panic, businessmen prayed together, and God met them and they telegraphed the stories of conversion and transformation. And nearly a million people came to Christ over the next two years meeting at businesses for prayer. How good of God, just before a civil war, to bring that to people in the midst of things. So I praise God for lay-led movements. And in fact, uh, I was with uh some of Tim Keller's community at Redeemer um eight years ago, and they said, we're kind of catching up with our business folks. Uh and I they said it with a smile. Um, and I want to give honor to Dr. You know, the late Dr. Keller's great work on every good endeavor and other work that he's done. But he honors what he's learned from the men and women in business. And so I think that's just the mutuality that we've got to engage in.

SPEAKER_01 34:24

Yes, absolutely. Well, Dr. Charlie, where can people hear more from you?

SPEAKER_00 34:30

Um, my my very out-of-date website, I still publish there about monthly or so, drcharyself.com. And I think the the most up-to-date passion that I'd love people to connect with is discipleshipdynamics.com. And uh in 30 seconds, we went around the country physically and around the world virtually with some generous benefactors and asked this question what does a healthy disciple look like on Thursday at 2 p.m.? And we created the first ever assessment that looks at all five dimensions of the Christian life, and then recently uh published our book called Life in 5D. And you'll find that both on my website and on discipleshipdynamics.com. And please, I mean, I'd love people to enjoy the book and enjoy the assessment, but the real aha that I'd love to leave as a challenge is to have us think about life change and outcomes and not just programs when it comes to the Christian life. Um, a young mom can't do a sweet hour of prayer at 5 a.m., but she can pray without ceasing. A new businessman starting a new enterprise can't be in three programs a week at the church, but she or he can offer their work to God as worship. And so, what with a community psychologist, with an economist, myself, and hundreds of others helping, we tried to chart a course to say, here's what health looks like. And this is part of what you're doing in the work you do. And I want to thank you for helping your our listeners, since I'm now part of the team, but helping our listeners realize that whatever they do can be worship to God. And there uh and the value they create, of which wealth is a subsection, the value and wealth they create really matters to the kingdom of God.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

That's right. Well said, Dr. Charlie. I've really enjoyed this conversation. It's one I've been wanting to have for a long time. Um so I I know this is one that I'm gonna need to go back and listen to you multiple times. So thank you so much for sharing your time, your wisdom, and the um extraordinary amount of research that you've done in this field. Thank you for keeping that going. And uh we'll look forward to sending, uh getting a hold of more of your teaching. And drcharleself.com, discipleshipdynamics.com are the websites, and the book is life in 5D. Thanks again.

SPEAKER_00 37:10

It's my honor, and we we got to do some top 10 highlights, but I look forward to exploring more with you.

SPEAKER_01 37:17

Thanks for listening to this episode of the Christian Business Leader Podcast. Be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and tune in for the next episode as we continue exploring God's will and ways for business.