Episode 8 Ben Polikoff

We talk all things Battlefront Miniatures. Flames of War, Team Yankee, Checkpoint Charlie and the West Coast Tournament scene.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:22

Hey everybody, welcome back to the Tanks and Tomahawks podcast. This is Steve, and I have a special guest today. I've got Ben Polikoff, who's a member of the Puget Sound Wargamers, and also has done work with Battlefront Miniatures on some of their books over the years. And uh really lucky have them on the show today. How are you doing, Ben?

SPEAKER_00 0:43

I'm doing excellent. Good to talk to you, Steve. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Good to have you on. So uh we see each other quite often, but uh we've been talking about doing this for a while, so it's good to finally get uh get you on the show.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

Happy to be here.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

Yeah. So, real quick, just I know a lot of your history, but just for our listeners, um, and it's kind of the same question we always ask everybody when we bring them on. Um, you know, how did you get into war gaming and how long have you been war gaming?

SPEAKER_00 1:12

So gosh, that's I've been war gaming for 35 years, I want to say. Uh not successfully for most of it. Uh started uh probably with Battletech back in the early 90s and then uh graduated to 40k in 2000.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

Nice.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

And um after that I got into Flames of War and it just took over the whole hobby. I I it's my favorite by far. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Yeah, I think uh for a lot of miniature war gamers, I think yeah, kind of the whole games workshop, 40k, especially uh individuals, at least in my age group, um and I'm a little bit older than you, but uh I think that was kind of like the entryway or battle tech or something similar. So yeah, as much as uh we all like to or individuals like to complain about games workshop, I don't know where the miniature war gaming would be. Um they've kind of uh created the model from a business standpoint that I think a lot of companies follow nowadays.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

The base game itself is a great game. It's just uh the World War II setting was really the draw for me. Uh I have a degree in history, and uh because of that I of course very much drawn to you know anything history. Yeah, um so world war two in particular was my favorite j genre.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Yeah, and it's it's funny. We uh had a chance to talk to Phil Yates, who you know um uh a while back, and you know, he was talking about how he had been writing set of rules for uh Warhammer Historical, specifically for World War II, and kind of at that time World War II war gaming wasn't that popular, and now I would say it's probably one of the more popular genres uh in miniature war gaming.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

Most definitely between uh Flames of War and uh uh uh bolt action.

SPEAKER_01 3:06

Yeah, and you've got uh you know Rapid Fire has been around a long time, you've got What a Tanker, you've got um uh the Command and Colors games, I think Memoir 44, which people use miniatures with, there's just a lot of that out there.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

The Axis and Allies uh miniature games back in the day.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

Yeah, absolutely. So for you, when you look at kind of the the hobby as a whole, you've obviously got the gaming part, there's a modeling, painting, building, collecting aspect, um, there's the history part of it. Uh for you, if you had to pick one, what what's your favorite part of the hobby?

SPEAKER_00 3:41

So I'm kind of a generalist. I kind of like the entire hobby as a whole. Um recently I've really enjoyed getting new players into the game. That's my my favorite part is getting them excited about it, bringing our passion as a club to people who have never seen it before. Uh I started probably as enjoying the game the most and then graduated to painting and list building and that type of thing. And now my favorite thing is when a new guy walks in and he sees us having a great game and we have our beautiful terrain out and our beautifully painted armies, getting them really excited and getting them to roll dice too.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

Yeah, yeah, I I would agree with you there. Um, you know, I've known you what, probably been six or seven years now, somewhere in that range. Oh, at least, yeah. Um, you know, I moved up here, it's been well, it's been over a decade now, but um I had a really good gaming group down. I lived in down kind of the Vancouver, Washington area, so Portland, Vancouver. Um, and we played a lot of different stuff, but we played a lot of Flames of War. And then when I moved up here for work, um, I really didn't have that. And I remember I walked into the Game Matrix on I don't even know, it was like a Thursday or something, or might have been a weekend anyway, just to grab some paint and stuff. And I saw Chris Little, and I think Ed was there. I think you might have been there. I don't think Bill was there, but anyway, you guys were playing Flames of War, and so I just kind of walked over and started talking to everybody, and that's kind of how I got part of the the Puget Sound Wargamers group. Didn't even know it was a group at that point, but you know, I think Chris or you kind of said, Hey, we've got this, you know, Facebook group, and uh I think for me that was probably um the thing that really helped me get back into playing um a lot was because uh to your point, building the community, um you have to have a set of individuals that you know I guess are you're compatible with, um, which isn't always easy. Um and so finding a group that you can kind of click with and you all get along and you all have very similar interests and personalities, um, I it feels like it makes a big difference.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

So absolutely, and I really feel such a compatibility with all of you guys on different levels, you know. We're we're just such a crew, and that's the um what I really get out of it. I love going and seeing y'all. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Yeah, so from a from a building the community, because that's a question we get a lot um of individuals saying, Hey, I live in City X or Area X, and uh, do you know of any groups? You know, how how do you do that? Um and I I think I guess for you, uh I mean, how do you go about building a community?

SPEAKER_00 6:18

So it starts off with plan. You know, you have a couple of guys that you play consistently with, you know, three or or four or something like that, and then as you get those new people walking through and you uh talk them into buying armies and and that type of thing, uh, then you start uh helping grow that community. It makes it better for our tournaments, having the new people there, makes it better for our stores. Um so it's really just word of mouth. And you know, when I hear somebody online looking for a game and they're close enough that they can come come play, uh, they're always welcome. And and you know, I'll take them under my wing and teach them what little I know of that I've learned in all these years.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

Well, I think you're being a little bit humble there, um, as far as what you know. You've been uh you know uh in that in the hobby a long time. You've obviously worked with Battlefront miniatures. I know you're part of the the um I guess it would be the uh group that playtests things. Um and I think uh I haven't looked to see how many, but I know your name is in uh several books credited with uh writing. I think what what what have you done more with the with Battlefront as far as being part of the group that puts out you know the product?

SPEAKER_00 7:32

Uh well I can't talk too much about it because of the the nondisclosures I've got with the code. Yeah, I'm talking about the stuff that you've already done, the stuff that's like so I really enjoy uh writing the stories in the books, the vignettes. That's and uh it's kind of fun because I I put in our players from our different groups. So I grew up in Southern California, I had a group down there, and uh some of the names you'll see in some of the books that I've written the vignettes for will be the names of our our players down there, just as a uh something fun I've done for them. Yeah, and then uh it's mainly just going over the rules and talking to the designers and saying, Hey, you know, what are we doing with this, or like how do you want to do this, and and doing our best to bring it to the tabletop.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

Yeah, yeah, and I was in that group for a little bit, um, and it was interesting to watch just the conversations back and forth uh of different roles and interactions of the roles and different things, and everybody has kind of an idea. I know for you, you've got some definitely some passion projects that you would like to see get published someday. Don't know if they ever will. One day. Can you talk a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_00 8:44

Um I'd have to be really careful. Uh my passion that I really would love to see is anything uh in like China or I lived in China for a year and a half. So when it comes to like nationalist Chinese versus uh Red Chinese, I'm very excited about that as an idea. Um I think Pete said something in the Christmas video about a possibility. I I really don't know much more about it than this, but a possibility of a Red Chinese versus Taiwanese or uh North Korean versus South Korean or uh India versus uh Pakistan as like some of the new ideas that are coming out for um either Team Yankee or Checkpoint Charlie or or something like that. But uh I'm I'm kind of in the dark about that, but I'm very, very excited about it.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

Well, and I think that you at one point uh were kind of waving the flag for Chinese uh in flames of war, correct?

SPEAKER_00 9:37

Long, long, long, long ago.

SPEAKER_01 9:38

Uh we've talked about this a couple times.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

Yeah. Uh it was something that we were working on. Um Jokal in um Iceland was kind of spearheading it, and I was working with Jokal, and he's just brilliant. Um and we had some some good things that we had put together, but uh it just didn't work out for one reason or another.

SPEAKER_01 9:59

Yeah. Yeah, it was interesting because at one point when I was part of that group, I was really passionate about trying to do something with Falklands for uh Team Yankee. It never really got anywhere because most of the comments I got back were something like, well, you know, you're gonna just have to have a lot of sheet models in that, whatever you do with that uh time frame. And and that is a tougher one to do because it is a very small scale um, you know, uh conflict. Um you know, there weren't a lot of tanks, very few at all. Most of what was were I don't know if you'd call Scorpion or Scimitar a tank so much, but um but it's funny how I think that now that Battlefront, because again, I think people forget Battlefront first and foremost is a miniatures company. That's why it's called Battlefront Miniatures, not Battlefront Games. Um, you know, that's how they started the old you know, yellow resin in the box. That's how they started off. They were making models and eventually decided they wanted to have a rule set for the models. But uh I think that as they get to a point where now with Team Yankee and what they've done with Checkpoint Charlie, where there's not going to be a lot of reasons not to do an army book because the models already exist.

SPEAKER_00 11:11

So I really love the fact that they're producing so many different models now. Um one of the projects I'm working on just for fun is a Checkpoint Charlie list, which is based on an Egyptian list. But I'm essentially reskinning it. All the rules are exactly the same, so it's perfectly tournament legal, but I'm re-skinning it as a kind of second-line Soviet list, where everything's painted green. I mean, it's all Soviet equipment, so it works out just perfect. Uh their morale and and the likes isn't very high because they're second liners, but that's the type of thing that you can do once you start having all these different available options. And that, you know, imagination is half the fun.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

Yeah, and I think the other thing too is with the uh forces um and being able to up that date update that electronically, like what you just saw, what they recently did with the M48s with the A5s, where you know everybody had asked for those. I think a lot of people wanted them for the US for the National Guard. Um, but now you have them in, I think, Germany. Um they added them to somebody else recently, too. I can't remember who it was. Netherlands.

SPEAKER_00 12:14

I want to say it was Norway, yeah, maybe Norway. Um or maybe Denmark.

SPEAKER_01 12:19

I can't remember. But you know, I mean, the the cards you just print them out, they don't have to make a card for it or a card pack as much as people want them to. I mean, that doesn't make a lot of sense for them from a business standpoint, but it's very easy now to make that unit uh create a card digitally and put it into forces and say, have at it, play it. You can print off the card, you've got the you know, it's uh it's uh formation. Um and so I'm I'm hopeful that we'll see more of that like we used to see back in the day with the with the briefings, the intelligence briefings.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

That I miss those intelligence briefings. I thought that was always just so much fun. And you there's you could see so much passion from the the writers in each one of those, whether it was the American uh infantry lists, yeah, that uh what it was in Mike uh hot did. Yeah. Oh god, I just love that stuff.

SPEAKER_01 13:09

Yeah, and sometimes they were specific to a unit or uh, you know, uh uh specific historical um formation, but a lot of times they were based off of a specific battle or time frame, um, which you wouldn't necessarily do in Team Yankee. You you could in Checkpoint Charlie, especially if you're talking about, you know, India, Pakistani. I mean, you've got the the Turkish Greek uh conflict in the 70s, um, and now again, the models ever the models are there. It's just a matter of uh creating the um the armies and the formations for him.

SPEAKER_00 13:45

So uh be and I know uh Pete uh really likes uh Bush wars.

SPEAKER_01 13:51

Oh yeah, yeah. I know that for him, that's kind of his passion thing. And yeah, I think if it was up to him and he didn't have to worry about selling it and worry about, you know, the cost of the models and stuff, he'd probably we'd probably already have it. But uh Absolutely. So well, so for you, I know you've got some stuff that you want to talk about today and stuff that we've also talked about. Um you know, talk a little bit about kind of the state of you know, I think for for a lot of gamers, um, you know, there's and especially historical gamers, I think there's the flames of war comes to mind, bat bolt action, um, which are more or played a lot as a tournament type game. Um, and there's a lot of individuals that don't play gaming that way or historicals that way. They just do it with their friends, they go to like an Enphilod or a historicon or that type of thing. Um, but Flames of War has historically and today continues to be really a tournament-driven um game. Um a lot of the things that happens in tournaments, you know, affect the meta with the you've seen it with dynamic points and stuff. You know, where where do you kind of see the West Coast and obviously the Pacific Northwest just from where we are as far as that tournament portion?

SPEAKER_00 15:13

So for years and years I've had this dream of setting up a uh Northwest Regionals tournament, kind of smaller than a uh like the West Coast Nationals or something like that. Um it comes from me being kind of a journeyman player. I played in Southern California a ton, uh played in Arizona with uh Arizona Desert Rats. Um, and then since I've moved up here to Washington State, I've gone down to Oregon numerous times, and up to uh Vancouver, uh British Columbia, and played with the groups up there. And they've come down and played in our tournaments as well. So I kind of want to uh kind of unite the regions and integrate them. Uh at NFLG, we get a lot of guys from eastern Washington and the guys up from Oregon, of course. But I want to build that up a little more and uh eventually have a kind of rather hefty Northwest regional tournament. That's kind of my a goal on my horizon. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

Yeah, and and I know you and me have talked about that. You know, back in the day when I was down living in uh Battleground, uh Vancouver area, we played a lot. Uh there was a store called Z Games in Vancouver. We played there a lot, but we also played at Guardian Games when it was in the old location. And uh, you know, there was a I can't remember the name for it. I want to say it was called the Cascadia Cup or something of that nature. And it was basically, you know, all the players from Oregon playing against the players from Washington, and there was kind of it kind of went back and forth. And we've tried, we've talked about kind of trying to recreate that, doing something maybe like a uh a three uh event tournament, um, you know, Enphilod probably being the main one up here, doing one in Oregon, and then doing one out maybe in Spokane, that would cover kind of Spokane. Idaho guys, some of the I mean some of the individuals uh from you know British Columbia or just across, you know, on the other side, um Alberta. Um and then if we could ever figure out a way to do something, I know they do one up in they do the um Canadian Nationals, I think in Calgary. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 17:19

Or was it Yeah? So I've just started talking to uh a group of the Canadian guys who are a little bit further east than just my normal Vancouver guys, and um I'm trying to promote their tournaments to the best of my ability. You know, it's a little bit of a far drive for us. Uh a lot of people don't don't know how big these western states are. Um but uh I mean that would be an absolute dream to be able to go to their tournaments and have them come to ours, you know, fly in or whatever, and set up accommodations for them. I mean, we've played some of the best players around. Uh we've had people from down south come up and play in our tournaments. Uh the south of the south, not Southern California, but uh was it uh uh Bocamp? Sorry, Bombcamp.

unknown 18:00

I can't remember.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

Great guy.

SPEAKER_01 18:03

Yeah, and we've got you know individuals like Charlie Clay who travels out here, and he's obviously not I want I believe he lives in I think Arkansas, but um I could be off. But I know he lives out east somewhere, but he he's out here for travel, and so he'll stop in and play in the tournaments. And uh, you know, I had a chance this year. This is the first time I had a chance to go down and play at the event on the USS Hornet there in the Bay Area and got to meet a lot of the individuals that you know very well. Uh yeah, Daniel Wilson. Yeah, you know, Russell Moore does a good job putting that on in the bay. And so, you know, I I guess for for me and you, um, for anybody listening to this podcast that's involved in that, you know, we'd really like to start that discussion and and look at, you know, kind of putting something together. Obviously, you have the West Coast nationals, which I think are in SoCal again this year. I believe so. Um and then there's obviously the other national events um, you know, over the course of the year. I know the guys out east, especially the Wolf's Creek guys, do a lot of events, they get a really good turnout.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

Uh that would be really nice to have some of them out.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

Chris Fretz and some of those individuals. Uh I know you know a lot of them. I I don't I know of them, and we've talked on Facebook or back and forth, but I don't know them very well. I know Chris Little knows Chris Fretz, I think, fairly well. Um, and then I think the Nationals is LVO, isn't it? Las Vegas Open is kind of turned into the national event, yeah. Which for us is not that far away. So um, and again, it's it's for those individuals that like that competitive play. Um, I'm not overly competitive about the competitive play. For me, it's a chance to go play three, five games, whatever that looks like over the course of the tournament. Um, and one, I think you just learn a lot. Um, obviously you have to know the the rules enough to be able to play and not uh slow somebody down, but to me it's always uh it's a good event. You meet a lot of individuals. I would say the flames of war um community as a whole is extremely welcoming. Um I think you're a great example of that.

SPEAKER_00 20:08

So oh, thank you so much. I love going to big tournaments like that because I love going and seeing other people's ideas. You know, uh when you get little gaming groups like we have all scattered throughout, you get kind of insular lists and ideas, uh, you know, what works against the armies in the area. But when I went up to Canada, they had lists that I had never seen before, you know, I'd never thought of, and they were very dangerous to play against, just very different. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

No, and I saw that down when I played at the uh event on the Hornet, and you know, when I lived in California, I just I wasn't playing Flames of War. Um, I moved up here in '92. And so that predates, I think, Flames of War.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

But uh Did Daniel give you a run for your money? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

They all did, you know, and I I I did okay. I didn't have you know the most optimized list, and uh again, it was a themed event, so it's not I wasn't trying to bring like you know a meta list or anything like that. But but to your point, seeing uh other areas and what they do with the game, how they play it, because every I think every area or group of individuals, I mean, even within a general, you know, there's guys playing like Chris Hansen in in Sacramento area, and they come into the Bay for this event, but those two metas are different because it's two different groups that play a lot against each other. Um, and so I think to your point, you just see a lot of really cool things and makes you think a little bit and go, hmm, never thought of running it that way.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

And you see beautiful paint jobs, you know, great painters from around the areas. Yeah, just so cool.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

So uh Early War just came out, um, and early war isn't something that's new, it's been around. I want to say V3 was the first time they did early war. V2, which I'm not mistaken. Okay. I have my old Blitzkrieg books and stuff, but uh great book, one of the best. Yeah, those were very well, those were hefty. Tombs too, so um where I mean what do you want to see from early war?

SPEAKER_00 22:07

Oh wow, I I have everything from early war Germans to early war British to early war French, and they've been sitting because we haven't been updated to version four for so many years. And I'm very excited to be doing it. I'm I'm trying to kind of get up my uh finger on the pulse of what everyone else is doing so I kind of cover our bases, being that I can go any which way. Um I think I'm gonna end up playing French. That's what I have. You know me, I'm not gonna do anything, you know, no normal.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

Yeah, well, I've got all my Germans already, and then I had uh Desert British. I wasn't gonna do BF. I was uh you know, because I already had the British stuff, but it's all the old resin um A14s and stuff. Um but I did buy all all the I bought two of the starter sets, so I wanted French. So I'm definitely doing French. And the new I don't know if you've seen them, but the new plastic infantry, the way they're doing them with uh, you know, they come with like uh the mortars and the heavy machine guns as part of the sprue now is it's and the sculptures are so good. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

I've got all the old uh tierlers and yeah. Uh what are the ones that are in North Africa, the the other guys in shorts and everything.

SPEAKER_01 23:18

Yeah, I know they're uh what are the ones they're adding? It they announced them. I think they're gonna be the old metals, but the uh for Italy when it comes out this summer. Uh the gomes. Yeah, the gomes are, you know, they'll have those in the in the long uh you know kind of jackets.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

But um Yeah, that's that's one I I don't have. That's okay. I think I sold them all the ones that I I found to one of our guys. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

Yeah. So yeah, and that's the next thing. I guess the next release is gonna be all the Italian stuff coming out this summer. So we'll see that.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

That's always been one of my my favorites. Um Italy uh Americans play so differently from either Bulge or DB. Uh just so dug in. You remember the old rules about uh bombarding with your tank destroyers and bombarding with your your uh anti-air guns and that type of thing.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

Well, I think what people forget about the Italian campaign, because it is kind of the forgotten campaign, um, and it was extremely important, is the fact that you know they weren't funneling a lot of uh you know new recruits into Italy. Those were all being set aside for D-Day, and so what you ended up with in Italy was a very veteran army for the most part. A lot of individuals that came out of North Africa, the ones that didn't get you know redeployed to England stayed in Italy, and it's not like they were getting a lot of fresh recruits funneled into Italy. So um it does play different, and the campaign is a lot different. I I like it because really what you get is you get and the British were in the same boat, and and the Germans, you know, the kind of the throw, not throwaway, but the the kind of the the depending on what day it is were the Italian forces, but uh it ends up being a campaign with just a lot of veteran forces.

SPEAKER_00 25:04

Uh and veteran infantry forces.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

Yep, that are super dug in, super hard to get out of in a in terrain that was just hellacious to to to fight in.

SPEAKER_00 25:16

One of our best players down in Southern California, gentleman by the name of Eric Kurumoto, was uh grandson of a Nisei who actually fought in the war, and he played Nisei, and he was like a surgeon who's great to play against. The nicest guy you ever want to meet, but when you played against him, you know, he knew exactly what to take out first, and he would cut your army apart one piece at a time until you said, Wow, I I guess I I I lost.

SPEAKER_01 25:43

Yeah, I've played a few individuals like that where you're playing and you're like, I think I got a chance, and then you get to like turn four and you're like, I got no chance.

SPEAKER_00 25:50

Like he knew the entire time exactly what he was doing, and I just walked right into it. Yeah. So, Steve, what's your favorite of the games we've played together?

SPEAKER_01 26:00

As far as uh flames, like tournament games. Uh well, you know the one I'm gonna say is the one at Emphasis. I know the one from Ephalon, um, which was I think Two years ago? Two years, yeah. Because I think it was the first year when we were in was it Olympia or were we No, I think It was an Olympia. It was Olympia, so it's been longer than a couple years ago. Um because that would have been pre-ish pant. So maybe 2020? Is that right? 2021? Somewhere in there. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, yeah, the I was playing my my Finnish uh midwar fins, which are not the easiest army to play. Uh but I love playing them. I love the history behind them. I like playing them because they are they're they're hard to play. They're just they don't they don't have all the tools, you know. They're kind of uh a defensive turtle army that's hard to attack with them because they just don't have the the guns or the armor support. But uh yeah, when you rolled those uh those Stuarts on my I believe right flank and then a bunch of overworked T-26s just decimated them.

SPEAKER_00 27:06

Best part of it was I had pulled them back and put them behind a building to make sure you couldn't shoot them. And you came around the building, you had five shots. Hitting with uh what what their overwork?

SPEAKER_01 27:18

Yeah, fives or sixes, I think.

SPEAKER_00 27:19

Yeah. Hit every single one of them, firepowered every single one of them. Five shots, five pens, five kills.

SPEAKER_01 27:26

I think that is the most work my T26s have ever done in any game. Well, I'm glad I I'm glad I provided that for you. Yeah, I appreciate it. It was it was a great uh it was a great game, and we've had a lot of great games. So yes, we have.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

I very much have enjoyed playing against you throughout all the years playing beside you before doing team games. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

So uh Checkpoint Charlie. So that's kind of in between. I think it kind of got you know came out. Uh was kind of a different release for Battlefront, only from the standpoint of there wasn't going to be an army book, and that was intentional on their part, which I think actually was the right thing to do. Um and obviously early war, I think Checkpoint Charlie, I don't want to say it was a stopgap, but they were working on early war, and that got delayed, and I think they would need felt like they needed to kind of put something out there. And um, Checkpoint Charlie was always gonna be its own game. I mean, how long, how many years have they been talking about Checkpoint Charlie before the release?

SPEAKER_00 28:25

Oh gosh. Well remember Fate of a Nation came out and Nam came out, and they were always there's always kind of quasi-rules to play those together, but uh this Checkpoint Charlie is so cool because it uh integrates the European theater in as well. So you get your Soviets and your uh you know, real American, you know, with tanks and everything. I guess you get you do get that a bit in all of the yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:47

Yeah, you do, but it's more the European theater, and so you've got all the bells and whistles where, you know, obviously with Vietnam, there's pretty selective. It was a different, you know, again, a low the people that were it wouldn't say it was low intensity war, but it was a different, you know.

SPEAKER_00 29:02

It's not full de gap, right?

SPEAKER_01 29:04

Exactly. It's not masses of of tanks, you know, rushing at each other. Um but what where do you and what would you like to see with Checkpoint Charlie?

SPEAKER_00 29:14

Oh, you know, again, I always gotta go back to to China and Taiwan. Yep. Um and then just uh more lists with um as I said with uh I mean I'm using Egyptians to do that uh kind of second rate uh uh Soviet. Um but I would love to see more of that type of thing. Um just you know, there's a lot of different units along the line. It doesn't mean they're all the best, it doesn't mean they're all the worst. You know, there there's there's something to there's a story to tell. And you know, you can use your creativity just like you know we're talking about. Um using uh Israelis to do French, for example, you know, using only AMX 13s and and that type of thing and and mirages.

SPEAKER_01 29:59

You know, I think that's the challenge for Battlefront because you know this, is it's not a very big company, even in the gaming industry, it is not it is not Warlord Games or Games Workshop or anywhere near that. Um so they do have a very small group of individuals that you know work on the books and the rules and stuff, um, and a lot of individuals like yourself that volunteer and help with the playtesting and stuff, but uh I think the challenge has always been, at least my perception, is that if it doesn't bring something new to the game, then what's the point to do it? If it just plays like another army, and and I understand that everybody wants to be able to put their markings on their tank and their army that they love.

SPEAKER_00 30:41

Um, and I think that's the challenge for me is if I look at something and I go, Well, it just plays like these Germans, or I think that's a problem with Warsaw Pact right now, is from a Team Yankee standpoint, is it's basically the same armies with like a better skill up or down by one, is really kind of how it feels like I always have a hard time playing red armies for that reason, just because there's kind of a an idea of what you want to do with all of them, and it's pretty constrained uh as far as having lots of tanks or lots of infantry. But uh there's not really a necessarily dynamic play style for them. And that's why I do things like take the Egyptians, you know, having T-34s in 1968. Um but that's why I would love to see, you know, as I said, like secondary units. Oh uh using like the Finns for Team Yankee and using them as a red faction. Yeah. Having them be like a veteran T-72 force is another idea. You know, there's all kinds of things. I mean, it just goes to show that a little bit of creativity takes uh takes uh the standard stuff that we get and stretches it a little further. Well, and I think um I'm sorry, go ahead. Oh the other thing is uh so much of this. If you see you know, speaking to the people who are gonna be listening to this, if you see something that you really want, uh talk to Battlefront about it. They're humans. Um there weren't Finns years and years ago. And you know, our our friend Daniel Wilson wrote a finish list and wrote into them and said, Hey, this is what I see for the finish list. You know, what do you guys think? And here we are now with Finns completely integrated and you know it wouldn't be the same without them.

SPEAKER_01 32:21

Yeah, yeah, they are I and that's where I was gonna go in before I interrupted you, is that they are very receptive to the community. I mean, if there aren't individuals out there that are willing to buy the models and play the game, then they they don't exist as a company. Uh they know that they're they're business people, um, but they're gamers, I think, first and foremost. And uh I think that when you look at something like early war, I mean I mean early war, just everybody or Pacific, everybody was blah, blah, blah. Hey, we need when are we gonna get to and then it almost felt like, okay, guys, that this is the direction we need to take. And the next thing you know, Pacific is being worked on. Then early war got it seemed like kind of pushed forward, at least it it felt that way in my mind. It's like one moment we were there talking about, yeah, no, we we we definitely want to get to it someday. And then like a month, a couple months later, all of a sudden there's you know, there's playlists. Um, you know, hey, we're working on it. And so I think to your point, um, and I think there is a very vocal community, uh, whether it's on the uh Facebook group, you know, the old um uh chat um forum is long gone, which in some ways is good. But um I miss it from time to time. Yeah, yeah. And it's just like any any game system, there's people that have a lot of just very strong opinions, and that's great because it's you know, if you're that's passion, it's just the other side of the game. Passion for the game, um, it's what we need. But uh yeah, they definitely want to fulfill the needs of the individuals that play their game. I think that's why you're seeing a big push on a Pacific theater, um, because I think as the game grows in other areas of the world um and isn't just solely, you know, a US, you know, which I you know, again, I don't know what the numbers look like, but I have to believe that's probably their biggest market. And then after that would be somewhere probably Australia slash New Zealand, and then Europe, um, you know, Western Europe, and then after that, it feels like at least you know, if you're on that Facebook group, I see a lot of individuals posting painted armies that are from Southeast Asia.

SPEAKER_00 34:35

Have you seen Singapore? I I've seen the guys there and uh in China too.

SPEAKER_01 34:39

You just see a lot more of that. And so for those listeners in those areas, because I know that you're listening, because I see we have downloads in uh areas like China and Sri Lanka and some different ones, it's it's kind of amazing. Um, you know, I think they're listening, and I think we'll see that sooner than later.

SPEAKER_00 34:59

So I I would really hope. And if you need an advocate, you know, I'm happy to happy to help. I've been passionate about it for years.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

So what do you see going on locally? I know we got some individuals that are doing some different stuff and wanting to put stuff together, and uh we obviously got Emphilod tournament coming up here, and not too Yeah, I'm very excited for that.

SPEAKER_00 35:19

That's gonna be on uh Memorial Day. Uh hopefully this episode will be out before Yeah, it may be.

SPEAKER_01 35:25

Um that's a thing that we've we've uh we've tried we've had to try and challenge ourselves with is we've tried to stick to a once-a-month release um just because me and uh Kevin and I's time is we don't have unlimited amounts of time and uh we don't want to be pushed into a position where we feel like we're having to put out content, we want to put out the right content. Um so we have to be a little careful about talking about future events because in the back of my mind I'm going, this might not release until that's like a month over.

SPEAKER_00 35:53

So yeah, and I don't want to advertise it too much to people who just missed it.

SPEAKER_01 35:58

Well, you know, hey, there's always next year, but uh we had the Flames War tournament on Saturday. I'm running the Team Yankee game on Sunday, um, which is the big multiplayer game, which I don't know what I'm gonna do because we're sold out on spots. But then there's a whole bunch of people that said they were going on the Facebook group. So right now, if I counted it up, I think we have potentially 16 players, which I don't know now I have enough armies or tables to do that, but I'll have to figure I'll have to get the group together and pull everybody's stuff together and figure out how to pull it off.

SPEAKER_00 36:28

So well, God knows we have enough tables in this group. Absolutely. Um but what else do you see going on out there? So uh I've been talking to some of the guys in eastern Washington, getting them integrated into our group a little better. And then uh our local uh training store who uh just retired, the gentleman uh from there has said he wanted to get into gaming. And I saw that and I said, Ah, I know just the group. So uh we're gonna start talking to him. He wants to do a really large market garden game. I was just talking to him yesterday about it, and and uh I think if anyone can do it, it's us.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:07

Between putting the tables together for him. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:09

Yeah, and he's definitely got the space.

SPEAKER_00 37:11

Um and yeah, he's got his old uh train store that you know all the product is now gone, but he's remodeling, so it's gonna be a beautiful game.

SPEAKER_01 37:19

He's con he's converting it into what we all wish we could have from a game room. Uh think of a game room, yeah, the size of a store, and that's kind of the space that he's got. It's pretty impressive.

SPEAKER_00 37:31

How many you know, 16-foot tables does he have?

SPEAKER_01 37:33

Yeah, it's pretty interesting. And again, this isn't he's not creating it to be a store or necessarily a pay to come play. It's like it's literally his own little, you know, area, and he wants to play the stuff that he wants to play, which I can completely respect.

SPEAKER_00 37:50

And uh Yeah, he was so excited when when I was talking to him. And I know, you know, w I want to get him um down to to meet the crew.

unknown 37:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:58

I know once he meets Bill Nolan and Chris Little and Derek and all.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

And and they might already have met him at one point or another or know him because he does go into the game. And Rob goes to the squad. And um and he he has been a gamer. I think a lot of his gaming experience had been, you know, kind of more of the uh like squad leader, that type of stuff. I think that's a game he's gonna be.

SPEAKER_00 38:17

Yeah, he was saying that they're they're playing uh Panzer Leader.

SPEAKER_01 38:20

Penzer Leader, yeah. Yeah, they have a game, I think a group that's been going for a long time. So I know that's been his long game. Years and years. Um, but definitely wants to get into more of the flames of war uh type stuff. And it'd be great to do uh D-Day game too. You know, we run D-Day games. Uh we ran that big one at Empilot a couple years ago on that Friday, but um there's a lot of stuff we do, especially if you got individuals like Jim who uh who has kind of jumped in both feet into the into the flames of war waters.

SPEAKER_00 38:49

You just let me know, I'll bring the I'll bring the boats.

SPEAKER_01 38:51

Yep. Yep, I got all my British landing craft. I only get to use them, you know, once every couple years. Yeah. A couple years. So well, I'm kind of got just looking through the list of stuff that we know we wanted to talk about. What else you got?

SPEAKER_00 39:06

I think we just about covered everything that we've got here. I mean, again, it's it's uh this game is all about passion. And it takes individual passion from each of our crew that make it what it is. And that's you know, that passion spreads like wildfire throughout all the different regions, across the seas, to battlefront. I mean, so I just want to encourage everyone out there what you're really passionate about, speak up. Yeah, let us know. Let let your your uh teammates know, you know, let your uh competitors know. Because we're all in it together, and the the more we put into it, the more we get out of it.

SPEAKER_01 39:48

Yeah, and you know, I mean, gaming, uh any type of gaming, war gaming, board gaming, heck putting a puzzle together if you're not doing it by yourself, it's a social endeavor. Um to me, there's kind of like a you know, kind of a social contract with this hobby. And as much as we love the game and the painting at the end of it, especially I think from uh from individuals that like to play in the tournaments, yes, there is definitely a competitive part of it, um, is the social aspect. I think that's what Amphalot is uh every year. People talk about, you know, I know so and so up in in Canada or wherever, and really I see him once a year at Inphalod, and that's why I love going to Infilod. So I because I get to see him, and at night after we're done gaming, we have a beer and we just catch up, and um, you know, that's what it's the same thing when you go to a tournament. You see you may see somebody once or twice a year through that uh endeavor.

SPEAKER_00 40:43

All our Oregonian guys and uh you know, Alex Martin up in in uh Vancouver. Yep, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 40:49

We got a great group. Yeah, we do. And then from you know, just the community side of it or event side of it, it's just at some point um somebody has to step up and do the work. Um I mean I've sure I've run plenty of events and a lot of times I don't play, and I'm fine with that because it is it's not always easy to run an event and play in it. Um but I do it because somebody has to do it. And if you want to have a community or you want that, and again, and you want to do that, it's not everybody's cup of tea. I completely understand that. Um, but step up and run some events in your local area and don't worry about how many people you're gonna get. Because trust me, um, you know, we did an event down at uh game store down in Oregon, and it was kind of a histor a historical kind of uh learn to play. We had some um we had four systems. I was down there kind of running demos of saga, and we didn't have a ton of people show up, but we did have a bunch of individuals stop and ask questions, and so a lot of times to your point, you know, we're playing on Friday nights. We always play Friday nights down at uh the game wizard and blue sky hobbies in Lakewood. So if you're in the area um on a Friday evening, come by, check us out. Um, and we have a lot of individuals that just stop and say, Hey, what are you guys playing? What is this? It looks really cool. Um, and that's to me, that's how it all starts.

SPEAKER_00 42:16

So absolutely. Uh to that point, I I just did that yesterday with uh uh actually uh Rob uh and um another gentleman who just happened to be in the store, ran some uh Abrams versus some T-55s. Let you guess who won that one.

SPEAKER_01 42:32

Yeah, well, I don't know, it depends on how many T-55s, but 31. Okay, well I'm guessing I'm guessing the T55s won.

SPEAKER_00 42:39

The T55s won.

SPEAKER_01 42:41

Because when you have that many of them, they're gonna get flank shots. They just will. They got flank shots? Yeah, you'll be surrounded pretty quick. So yeah, you just need a couple A10s to come through there and just wreck their day.

SPEAKER_00 42:52

So well, super cool.

SPEAKER_01 42:57

It's yeah, I really appreciate you coming on. It was good to catch up and just talk about some of the stuff that uh, you know, want to get this out there to everybody involved in the hobby. And uh if you're listening and you don't know anything about Flames of War or Team Yankee or Checkpoint Charlie, some of the stuff we talked about today, please check out Battlefront Miniatures. Um, you can go to their website, uh, everything's right there. Uh, that is not a plug for the company. I don't work for the company, I'm not paid by the company, I'm not sponsored by the company. Um, Kevin and I made a decision when we started this that that wasn't something that we were going to pursue. Um, this we're not trying to monetize this podcast in any way. Um, it's really about the community and talking to individuals within the community. So, but uh I am a fan of the company and the game system, and uh, I know you are too, Ben. So please uh if you have a chance, check it out. And who knows, you might something you might something you like, and then you'll wake up one day and have a bunch of plastic tanks sitting on your desk.

SPEAKER_00 44:01

More than a few. Yeah, I'm not associated with uh Battlefront in any way uh other than just uh helping them out whenever I can and just be in in love with their product.

SPEAKER_01 44:11

So Ben, again, thanks for being on the show today. I really appreciate it. Steve, old buddy, you're it's always a pleasure. All right. And uh for everybody else, thanks for listening, and we'll talk to you again soon. Thank you for listening to the Tanks and Tomahawks Podcast. If you'd like to reach out to us, you can find us at tanks.tomahawks at gmail.com or join us over on Facebook at the Tanks and Tomahawks Facebook group.