Episode 10 Chris Leach/Decisive Wargame Design

We had the chance to sit down with Chris Leach of Decisive Wargaming Design. The mind behind Control to Catastrophe: Cesar,  Control to Catastrophe: Maximilian and Battles For Empires 2.

https://decisivewargamedesign.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:06

You are listening to Tanks and Tomahawks, a miniature wargaming podcast in the Pacific Northwest. Hey everybody, and welcome to another episode of Tanks and Tomahawks Podcast. And we have a special guest today, uh Chris Leach, who's a game designer. He's based out of British Columbia. And uh we're gonna have a chance to uh ask him some questions and talk to him today.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

Thanks for having me. I'm really excited about this.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Well, we're thrilled that you're here. Um, so I'll begin the same way we begin with everybody. Uh what dragged you into um miniature war gaming and um and how long have you been doing it?

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Well, uh I have to admit it's been about 50 years, which kind of scares me. Um and I want to, I mean, I like most guys probably who are into the hobby and women, um, we probably all started with Aerifix figures and all of that stuff, but I kind of want to emphasize some of the people that kind of got me into it because I think it's such a social hobby. I think it's kind of really important to sort of make mention of some of the people. Um, a couple of my brother's friends, uh, they're a few years older than me. They got me started, and one in particular, Malcolm Graham's, and he had a little book by uh Terry Wise called An Introduction to Battle Gaming, which is probably familiar again to certain ones of us of a certain generation, probably. And uh and and that got me going. And then uh the local club Trumpeters, which was in existence way back then, uh at the Pacific National Exhibition, the PE up in Vancouver, they they had a display of, I think it was something like Waterloo or uh an 1850 Napoleonic scenario, and a very, very kind man named John Ray saw this. I suppose I must have been about nine or ten. And I was just in awe of this display. And uh, and he invited me across the sort of rope cordoned off area and let me sit down and push around a few models. And I'm sure it was probably a terrible war game in so much that not much, I do remember not much happened, but I was totally enthralled. So between you know, this introduction by my brother's friend, Mal, and uh and John Ray, it's just sort of started off this passion. I will admit, I I had a bit of sort of enthusiasm for military history anyway, because my dad was a military historian and uh he taught at uh the local college, and uh and so I didn't sort of come to military history through gaming, particularly. Um, always had an interest in that, of course, the usual movies and things like that that my dad would let me stay up to watch, or my parents would. They were always somehow aired at like two in the morning for some reason, right? Waterloo or whatever. Uh, so that kind of got me going. And uh, you know, and then trips to the UK to visit relatives, uh certain books, of course, just got me deeper and deeper into the whole thing. So, but support from from people, you know, from fellow gamers, uh, and that inspiration from seeing games that just again at the time just blew me away. It just sort of filled that imagination. Um, I gotta actually also give credit to one fellow who at the at the local club at Trumpeters, uh, who again, just like John Ray, who initially kind of let me cross that barrier, but Rick Stevens, who sadly passed away just uh a little more than a year ago. Uh, you know, once again, this at that point, I suppose I was probably around 11 or 12 or whatever, uh completely went behind the ears. And these guys were playing like heavy-duty games like WRG Ancients, which again we probably all played to some extent. Um, these are not easy games, and I probably I believe I wasted two years of my life.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

There you go, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

But you know what? At the time, it was obviously what we played, and I lost all the time. But Rick was really good about you know taking this young kid, you know, under his wing, so to speak. And uh, I bought some figures and all of that stuff, and it just kind of kept going from there. So, like I said, it's just it's so important. The people, obviously, who we share this hobby with, uh, especially early on, and I suppose that's why it's so nice to see it emphilate or salute some younger kids being interested, but also not being ignored. Because I I wasn't ignored, but it you know, at least by certain individuals, and that that got me into this madness, you know. So um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

So Chris, did you come down to the early gatherings at Camp Long in West Seattle in the early 80s? Yeah, um I remembered I remember John Ray being.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

You know, I I don't think I went to those. I mean, I think the first uh the first conventions I went to in this, you know, in in Washington State would have been when it was being held Linwood, is that right? So North Seattle.

SPEAKER_01 5:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 5:38

I think those were some of the first emphilades that I went to. Um I remember there was also some other event at a uh gosh, I want to say it was at a fire station or a Coast Guard.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

Coast Guard station. I think that's where you and I met. Well, it was in 1991 at the there was the auction at the Coast Guard Station in Seattle for the first envelope. That was a third.

SPEAKER_00 6:01

Oh, okay. Well, there you go. So yeah, so it would have would have been around there then. A good number of years. I mean, it's kind of scary to think here we are in 2026, and you know, that's over 30 years ago.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

Yes, over 30 years. It is wild. It is it is amazing. Um, so kind of just kind of doing the the big picture of uh of Chris Leach gamer, game designer. Do you have a favorite part of the hobby? Are you a are you a modeler, painter person, or are you a do you just love playing games, or is it just the writing that that gets you?

SPEAKER_00 6:36

You know, I I mean this is gonna be one of these kind of nothing answers. I mean, I love it all. And I mean, for the longest period, of course, I uh, you know, the sort of the nexus between, you know, history, the gaming, and the modeling, you know, this was all really important to me. I can't really parse out one aspect of it, uh, because they they all kind of work together. I will say, you know, kind of kind of coming back to sort of those early influences, uh, a book that I got again when I was at that point, I think 13, uh, was a book by Charles Grant, Napoleonic Wargaming, and it featured tons of pictures of Peter Gilder's collections. And and you know, and then of course I started reading more about Peter Gilder, and of course, then ultimately the War Games Holiday Center and all of that in the magazines. And I he probably shaped what I thought war gaming should be. Uh big, beautiful, you know, terrain modeling, but also, of course, that that um sort of respect for history. I mean, not that his games were necessarily always super historical, but but they captured something of history. I you know, I have to say, if if a game doesn't somehow evoke a sense of history, uh, I'm not so interested in it necessarily. Um so yeah, it like I said, I I I I'm really sorry that I can't sort of say it was it's game designing or or painting or whatever. I I'm one of those guys that I just love all of it.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

You know, that is great. That is great. That means you're oh truly, absolutely, absolutely. I love it, I love it. So, what brought you to game design? I mean I so my own memory has you connected um with uh Artie Conliffe and doing some work for him and with him. Uh how did we how did you get uh from there to here?

SPEAKER_00 8:43

Yeah, that you know you've you've nailed it right on the head. Uh the connection to Artie was uh absolutely sort of a key, once again, one of those people, right, in the hobby that carries you sort of through aspects of it. Um I a friend of mine, Barry Camp, he went to Historicon, I think it was either 1990 or 1991, and he picked up a copy of Tactica. And uh once again, being on the West Coast, it was a little tricky to get some of these products and everything. So he picked up a copy. Yes, what the penny dropped. I opened up that rule book and I thought, oh my god, this is fantastic. So I rebased a ton of my WRG art and uh uh and I uh I started playing, and I had a question about the rules. And I mean, I do remember what the question was, but it doesn't really matter. But uh Artie said, look, you know, um send me a self-addressed envelope and I'll answer your questions. So I sent him a letter and I included my phone number and I said, I'll pay for the call if you call me back. Of course, these were the days of collect calls and stuff, right? So he he phoned me back, and um and you know, he answered my question, but he said, you know, I got this rule set called Shaco that I'm kind of working on. Would your group be interested in in playtesting? And I'm telling you, I I got totally hooked on that whole process, and uh and that was the start of really digging deep into game design, like thinking about game design. And it started a relationship with Artie, where of course I ultimately I got sort of more involved in, especially Shaco, where I helped develop into the second edition and all of that. Um, and we would just have literally thousands of emails exchanged, phone calls that at the time cost to fare about, um, you know, all that stuff. But it it was just this cross-continent, you know, international relationship that just absolutely inspired me. And of course, I was I was working, uh, I was already teaching history. Uh well, I suppose at that point I was uh I was working on my master's degree, and so I was fascinated by his passion for history and him wanting to really kind of nail down that aspect of game design, like getting it accurate, so to speak. Um, and that, as I say, that just kind of kept me rolling. I just loved it. And he, of course, I got a game, give him credit. Uh I had this idea for a colonial game that was partly inspired by Dave Waxdell, who obviously another New York guy. Uh uh, I went to Historicon, I can't remember what year it was, and Waxdell was playing a colonial game, and he threw this play sheet at me and said, Yeah, have a look at this. And I thought, yeah, that's kind of an interesting idea. And uh and so I wanted to develop that idea into a more substantial game, and Artie facilitated, of course, making that happen, and that turned, of course, into Battles for Empire, which was my first kick at the can. Um, so again, I gotta give Artie a huge amount of credit, not only in in terms of inspiring an interest in game design, but facilitating that first game. So um, so that was huge.

SPEAKER_01 12:10

So um, so tell us about how you got to um uh uh got to uh decisive game design.

SPEAKER_00 12:20

Well, uh I recently retired. So so that made that does a lot of um uh you know I I lots of free time. Yeah, well, a little bit more anyway, actually, yeah. Um I suppose one of the things that got me there in terms of setting up the company and and designing more games is the fact that the world of distribution has changed a lot. And you know, whereas you know, one of the reasons Artie kind of stopped producing games at the pace he was for a time, uh, is that the world had changed from where uh Johnson Hood of War Games Inc. would basically pay Artie to write rule sets that was kind of a lost leader. Not I'm not sure if that's the right business term, but sort of a sort of an investment in advertising, basically. And so Artie could kind of run with it, and there wouldn't be any upfront costs for him. In fact, he was paid sort of up front, and it worked out really well. And then that world sort of changed with obviously the internet and uh PDFs and and all of that. And so for Artie, that kind of monetization of the hobby ended, but for guys like me, where I'm not that worried about making money um really, uh, it's opened up the possibility of me setting myself up as this kind of a separate little entity and putting out rule sets that don't cost me too much. It still obviously is a little bit of an investment in terms of layout uh and all of that, but um, it just makes it possible. And War Games um uh war game vault, I should say, uh, is what what an incredible way of sharing rule sets, right? Uh it's it's wonderful. Um, I suppose the risk, obviously, is nowadays is that in contrast to the old WRG days, we've got 500 ancient rule sets out there that we're competing with, right? Um But you know, as far as the creative process and being able to put something out for people to hopefully enjoy uh and who might share kind of my vision not only of gaming but of history, because I think those two things are for me, are anyway are super linked. Um that's kind of exciting, obviously. And so that's what got me there.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

So um, so you've got the two um uh control to catastrophe, the uh ancients version and the medieval uh the Renaissance version, and then you've got um uh Great Wars for Empire, and um uh what what are the so when you're looking to design um design a set of rules, you're looking in a certain way to tell a story. What's the story? How are you trying to uh how are how are you hoping gamers see the story you're trying to tell? What's your rules?

SPEAKER_00 15:28

You know, for me, I suppose gaming has always been about understanding particularly army level systems, particularly with the sort of the ancient through Renaissance gaming and Napoleonics. Um the colonial thing was also really kind of elevating what was typically skirmish kind of gaming for colonials and trying to sort of look at warfare at a systemic level. Um I I think one of one of the things that I wrestle with, and this is gonna sound a little strange. Okay, I've spent my whole career teaching military history, so I was very lucky that I gave my hobby and my professional interests uh coincided, but uh I've always struggled a little bit with uh skirmish gaming or uh rule sets that aimed mostly at fun. And it's it's a funny thing. We're playing games and all of that, and my definition of fun in war gaming is seeing something on the tabletop that is evocative of something in history. So when I design a game or play a game that is at the battle level and I see those, like the Romans are behaving the way I think Romans might have behaved, that's to me important. Now I understand that all these war games are uh are just that, they're games and they're not meant to be pure similar simulations and all that, but if I don't see an element of that, uh I I don't have a lot of fun. Um, because I think like most of us, killing itself is not really something that I'm kind of that interested in. And uh, and unfortunately, I do I do think a good number of games or the excitement around games is is kind of the killing, and I'm not too happy about that. Um, I don't think what it's a strange thing perhaps to say. It shouldn't be a strange thing to say, but it is. But uh, so that's what drives me. I want to I I'm interested in armies kind of behaving the way that armies of different periods should behave, and I love that, especially if I do a uh a refight of a battle, like I do a scenario of a famous battle. I don't necessarily want to see it play out, of course, the way it did, because we are playing games, but I like to design games and play scenarios where I can understand that systemically something's going on which I can kind of buy. I can kind of understand why that happened, you know. Uh so that that's what kind of drives the you know the bus for me.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

So um I have been, of course, I play a lot of. I know you do, Kevin. I don't I say it with some trepidation, you know. Good. We live like, right? Um, so so that takes me to my next question, and that is I have been the beneficiary of um having the opportunity to play test a game that is not a mass battle game that you are working on, and that is called Take Action. What led you to that?

SPEAKER_00 18:47

That's a really good question. And you know, it's one of those things where uh there, I have to admit, the mechanic kind of got me excited. Uh, the core engine of that game. And funnily enough, originally that core mechanic, which I don't need to go into per se, but uh was originally designed to actually be applied to a higher level horse and musket game uh that I was sort of imagining for the Seven Years' War. And the more I thought about it, the more I sort of realized, you know, this would actually work as a game sort of at a grand skirmish level, right? And and it was, you know, sort of like the control to catastrophe games, it was almost a little bit like an intellectual exercise. I had no intentions of writing a grid-based game, but I thought, you know what, as a kind of an exploration of game design, I thought, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give this a go. And I absolutely fell in love with it. And the take action grand skirmish rule sets were sort of the same, where I I had this kind of mechanic in mind, which I thought worked, um, still needs some work for sure, but uh, but I was kind of interested in the way that this thing was playing out, and and I just kind of went with it. So it's not all it's not all kind of lockstep. Sometimes you fall into these things, right?

SPEAKER_01 20:21

Well, you know, as uh somebody who's played it almost a half dozen times, um I think it's pretty fun. I think you're really onto something, and and I hope uh hope that you can sustain the energy to kind of do the other piece, the other versions of it that you're you've talked about. I think it's a I think it's a yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 20:40

I I I definitely will.

SPEAKER_01 20:41

In fact, I've been Yeah, we've had a lot of fun playing it.

SPEAKER_00 20:44

Good, yeah. No, it's um it's something I've been deliberately sitting on a little bit because one of the things that I I'm sure anyone who's tried to frankly write anything a bit more substantial in length is that you stop seeing things in the editing process and as you're creating text, and uh and then you miss things. Like editing these hundred-page rule books is a nightmare. And you read over things that you know really you shouldn't be reading over, and by that I mean that you're not seeing the text and all of that. So I wanted to give a little bit of breathing space to that game, but I will be back with that for sure very soon, and I will uh I'll send you uh another draft. Uh, and I again I really appreciate the fact that you guys are playing it because that's that's so important to any game. Um, Artie Conliffe always said, I don't come in the box. And and that's so true, like that really resonated with me because you've got to write these things so that anybody can pick it up and play it. And uh that's really hard to do. Like, I don't I don't um intend on writing long rule books, but to explain. A rule is is extraordinarily difficult. And I don't use AI to help me along. So it's uh it takes a lot of words to explain simple things.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

So right, right. Well, and they need to be explained in a way that people understand them. That's challenging. I mean, wasn't that the reason we kept reinterpreting those rules every other week when we played those WRG rules?

SPEAKER_00 22:26

Again, and there's a really different culture in the UK. Um, recently I've been buying some new rule sets. One of the uh North Shore guys, Walter, uh, he's very avidly into sort of buying new games and trying them out. So I've been kind of gaming with him a little bit and buying uh some of the UK rule sets. UK rule sets are not written the same way as uh uh shall we say North American rule sets. Uh they're still a little open and loose and uh uh a little conversational, shall we say. And uh I have grown up more and more with the North American style of writing, and where I don't just say what is permitted, but I also try to say what's not permitted. And that of course makes for a longer book, but I do think it makes it actually a little tighter as well.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

Yep, I would agree, I would agree. Um so so you've you've got these three games published, you're working on take action. Anything else on your table here that you're thinking about that you're working on or that you can give us uh a preview of or yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 23:37

In fact, this is a game that I've been sitting on for longer than any of those, actually. It's uh it's um an American Civil War battle level game, regimental level. Um it's uh yeah, we've been playing it for a good number of years, and I I hope to bring it out, if not by the end of this year, certainly the beginning of next. Um, as I say, regimental game. Uh I'm not with none of my games do I sort of claim huge originality necessarily. In fact, I I'm not sure that there's many games out there that are using truly original mechanics. We throw dice, we read them, we move certain distances and all of that. And you know, some games are definitely a little more unique or or or feel that way. Um, but uh so this game is gonna be somewhat familiar, and especially to American Civil War uh gamers. It is it started off a little bit as my um from my uh colonial game, which itself borrowed a little bit of the engine from On to Richmond, Fire and Fury. You know, you roll a die to see what kind of move options you have and whether you rally and this kind of thing. Um, but it is it's a very it's quite a I have to say, it's a quite a nasty game. It's um it's uh yeah, um it's fairly fast play. They go on figure. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. But once again, it's uh we were running into a problem with um because we played Fire and Fury for a good number of years, and that it's a marvelous, marvelous game. In fact, I think the original game I think was probably the best uh because it was a bit stripped down, but you know, we're we play with 25s, 28s, and uh we were just also not getting games done in an evening, you know, that two, two and a half, three-hour time slot that we play in, and that was kind of frustrating us a little bit. So uh that kind of opened the way for me to think about maybe developing a game that was a little, shall we say, faster paced. Um and it's it's been working out really well. So I'm quite excited about it, actually. But the measure will be, of course, whether you guys down south are going to be happy about it because that's that's the the uh the land of American Civil War gaming. And I, you know, I'm very conscious of how important it is to make sure that there are things in that game that push buttons that I I think will be important to those who are passionate about the American Civil War.

SPEAKER_01 26:20

You know, I think there's kind of a lull in the in the in American Civil War. I think there's I've seen the only Civil War games I've seen being played lately. Well, that's not true. Um most of the civil Civil War games I'm seeing played lately are kind of skirmishy games. Although we do have a group that does play Regimental Fire and Fury with um with Civil War figures, 15mm Civil War figures every month down at first. Oh, great, yeah. So there's a there's a game group that does that regularly. And I and I'm interested to see because I have a number of things that are based for Regimental Fire.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

You know, I find it interesting actually that in game design now, it seems that uh if you write a game that demands certain numbers of figures or certain numbers of stands, that that's not a good thing, right? And that's what kind of got me excited about the grid game, because grid games, you can have like one figure to represent a unit in a very small grid and off you go, and then when you build your collection, you can make your units bigger and your grid bigger, right? Um, and that that really is very nice about grid games. But with American Civil War, because I suppose the success of On Richmond, Fire and Fury, uh I suppose Johnny Reb, uh these are all stand more stand-driven games. And so I felt quite comfortable about mandating that you have stands, not number of figures, but stands. Uh I would not normally do that, but I think it's a safe bet with American Civil War that there's gonna be lots of collections of you know, consistent one-inch stands or whatever it is, right? Uh out there that I don't have to worry too much about putting people off.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

Yep, no, I think that's pretty safe. Think that's pretty safe. So American Civil War is the next big thing, huh? That is very cool. That is very cool. Um, so do you have any bucket list war game events that you would love to attend that you haven't attended?

SPEAKER_00 28:18

I would love to go to Salute in London. Um last couple years, my my daughter moved to the UK, so I've been popping over to the UK a little more often, and lo and behold, I kind of time it to hit certain conventions, right? Um, but I've I've not been to Salute since I think the late 80s. And uh I would like to go to that, and I'd like to go back to Historicon, actually. Uh so those those two would be high on my list of destinations for for the hobby. What do you think you'd see there? Contrary to the culture in North America, what I love about the UK conventions are those incredible display games where you really see that beautiful, you know, the terrain and not particularly much of a game, I will admit. I can't imagine I can't imagine any of those games are actually played. Uh but uh but to see like a collection, I I don't know if this name resonates, but uh um uh Bill Gaskin uh has got these extraordinary collections of bespoke figures that he makes and casts, and I I would just love to see those kinds of collections. Uh uh but you know, quite honestly, and you know, that would be what I would love to see. Um I've been to a number of UK conventions, and I think once again, because of the internet, their draw is a little less for me now because we can access all those products so easily. Uh so that's actually not such a big deal, although it's kind of cool to walk through the the trade hall and see every big manufacturer and small manufacturer for that matter out there. Um so it's really and like every weekend at a display.

SPEAKER_01 30:08

Well, that's just it.

SPEAKER_00 30:09

Exactly. And you know, again, the the wonder of of the internet and Facebook, uh I've actually made not just Facebook friends, but I've actually made friends who I've met at these conventions, and that's been really that's been great, actually. Um I've I've been helping like Colin Rumford with his rapid fire books, uh, and you know, went over to his house, and you know, it's been really, you know, and this is purely because of you know, clicking away on the keyboard and establishing that relationship, and it's turned into a friendship, which is marvelous.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

Uh so that's super, that's super. So um the White Rock group, what's their big uh what's their big project they have going on?

SPEAKER_00 30:56

Well, uh we're probably in the same boat that a number of groups like ours face, that we have more models and more armies and more periods than we put on the table at any one time. Uh and so yeah, I'm not even sure what I would say right now. Uh I mean, I think we probably want to go back and do a little more Napoleonics again. Uh, but we've been playing a lot of rapid fire reloaded. Um we've got like you know, usually we try to have two games going on in an evening. And uh so we have a you know, at my place I've got a six by twelve foot table and a six by four foot table. And so we usually have a couple of things going on, a skirmish game of some sort, perhaps, or uh a naval game, and then on the big table we'll be playing, you know, Armadi controlled uh catastrophe, uh, you know, any number of these games. So I wouldn't say that there's necessarily sort of a drive towards any one of these, is they're kind of all happening, it's kind of crazy, actually.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

Um, if it makes you feel any better, every every game group I've spoken to recently has exactly the same problem. We have far more projects than we have time to play them. So, yeah, yeah. Well, um so uh as we kind of wrap things up, we always ask our guests uh do you have any miniatures or books or listening recommendations for our audience?

SPEAKER_00 32:31

You know, uh a book I've been looking at once again, it's not a very new book. I can't remember actually the publication date, but if you're interested in ancient history and ancient gaming, a book that I've just kind of returned to because I'm developing scenarios for the ancient rule set is by Phil Sabin Lost Battles. Uh it is such a great book because, again, he is a gamer and a game designer, but he's also a scholar of ancient military history. And that book is such a thoughtful uh read in terms of uh ancient history and the problem of sources and things like that, but also how we interpret that history uh into a miniatures war game, and he takes it very seriously. He ran a he's actually retired now. I think he lives in Peru or something, but anyway, this this Englishman uh he uh I th uh he taught at London College and he taught a grad seminar where the students actually had to design a war game that they marketed, and um but he takes he he believes that sort of in the gap in the scholarship and in the in the sources, I should say more than anything, that uh war gaming can actually teach us something about uh military systems. You always go back to the sources, but it it at least allows us to consider uh some questions. And I've I've used that with my students as well, actually, um when I was still teaching. Uh so that book I just think is just such a gem. If you're a gamer and historian, which we we all are to some extent, uh I think that's a great book. So Phil Sabin Lost Battles.

SPEAKER_01 34:22

So, Steve, what have you been up to? What would you recommend?

SPEAKER_02 34:26

Uh well, it's been a lot of uh American Revolutionary War and reading. Um and I've I watched a show back when it first came out, so I went back and I've been re-watching all the episodes. But there was a show back in 2014 called Turn, and it was based on the uh Culpepper spy ring. Yeah, and it was I think it was very well done for uh the time and when it was done. Um, and so I've been watching that, and if you haven't seen that, I think it's a good show. I have high hopes too for uh uh Young Washington. I that's coming out this summer, and I hope that's turns out to be good. So we'll see.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

Well, I'm strictly in the conceiving phase at this point. I haven't leaped in yet, but I am really interested in kind of one last cool project, and um, and that is the Peloponnesian War. And I have painted no 15mm figures in a bazillion years, but I'm looking really hard at doing the Peloponnesian War in 15mm, and probably with controller catastrophe. I have not purchased my gridded mat yet, um, but I'm heading in that direction. And I'm reading Donald Kagan's basic introductory book about the Peloponnesian War, and I'm about halfway through, and it's pretty enjoyable.

SPEAKER_00 35:47

So actually, that's a really good book. Uh and an interesting period as well, in terms of you know, uh the evolution of Greek city-state warfare. Uh so fascinating, actually. I mean, the hoplites, I I don't know if you guys saw this. Just recently, I saw on Facebook someone posted this extraordinary YouTube video where uh a French scholar he got 400, I think it was his students or students recruited from his university or whatever, to simulate phalanx combat. But what he was interested in was what happens when one phalanx broke at different phases. I I don't know if this is something that resonates, but I would highly recommend that you watch this YouTube video. Uh, I'm not even sure what the title was Hoplite Hoplite Battle or whatever. It is absolutely it's it's just it's amazing, you know, for one of these sim uh simulations. It was so interesting. It's about an hour long, it's it's taken quite seriously, and it it quite was quite telling, actually. So uh, so yeah, hoplite warfare, you know, and once again, I mean, not to dwell on it, my historian hat coming on here, I hate to say, but we don't know much about how that actually played out. I've always amazed at it. You know, we make assumptions, I hate to say it. I think I think as gamers, we sometimes uh are too sure about how things went down, like how the Romans fought, how the Greeks fought. Uh and if you actually dig into recent scholarship about these things, you realize you know, we don't know that much about any of those things. Uh so it's and this is where I think kind of wargaming can be exciting if it leads you into reading a little more about this stuff, uh, you know, and sort of challenging yourself a bit, right?

SPEAKER_01 37:45

Well, and I think that uh it so I I did not teach history at the college level, but certainly I was a high school teacher, and um, and that was always the best part for me is hey, I'm I've I'm doing this period, and not only do I have all these little men I have to buy and paint, but I've got all these books I've got to read. And um, so that was always a real driver for me. And um, so uh so yes, Donald Kagan is my first book, but there will be more. So so yeah, but uh but yeah, that's kind of my next big thing. Um so uh this is uh part of our show where we kind of uh preview uh uh what's going on, and um we have uh one an event that's coming up is Conflict, um, which is going to be in Mount Vernon. Uh it's May 2nd. Um and uh it's a pretty good event. Steve and I will be there. We'll be running Take Action, and Steve will be running Modern Watter Tanker.

SPEAKER_00 38:48

So um So I better get the revised copio down to you then pretty quickly.

SPEAKER_01 38:54

It's okay. It's okay. We're good, we're good. But um, but yeah, so we'll be running that'll be an American Revolution game. And then the big event that comes up on May 22nd through May 24th is Avan Filad in Tacoma, and we're looking forward to that. We just closed pre-registration, but if you have not, if you do want to come and um you had you don't have a badge, you can always register at the door, and there will be games to re to sign up for at the mention. Anything I'm leaving out, Steve. Alrighty. Well, Chris, we want to thank you for coming. It's been really fun, first of all, and it's been really good to see you. Uh we go back away, so it's always good to talk to you.

SPEAKER_00 39:37

Um thank you so much. Yeah, yeah. This has been this has been great, actually. And this is the this is the first time. I hope I I wasn't you know droning on too much about different things. So perfect.

SPEAKER_01 39:48

I could not have asked for more, could not have asked for more. You were great. And this is where we wrap up. So, Steve, you'll have to pull the plug on us.

SPEAKER_02 39:57

Yep. All right, thanks everybody for listening today, and uh, we'll talk to you later, thank you for listening to the Tanks and Tomahawks Podcast. If you'd like to reach out to us, you can find us at tanks.tomahawks at gmail.com or join us over on Facebook at the Tanks and Tomahawks Facebook group.