I Met Demons and Visited Hell... then Jesus Saved Me! (Tom's New Age to Jesus Testimony)

He tried everything.
      New age spirituality.
      Witchcraft.
      Astral projection.
      Drugs.
      Eastern religion.

Nothing satisfied… and things only got darker.

In this powerful episode of When Heaven Calls, Tom shares his raw, unfiltered testimony—from childhood trauma, homelessness, and deep involvement in the occult… to terrifying spiritual encounters that nearly destroyed him.

He wasn’t searching for Jesus.
In fact, he was running from Christianity.

But when everything else failed—and the darkness became undeniable—he cried out to Jesus… and everything changed.

This episode covers:

• Growing up in violence, trauma, and abuse
• Homelessness and life on the streets
• Deep involvement in new age spirituality and witchcraft
• Spiritual agreements with false eastern religion gods like Buddha, Krishna, Vishnu
• Cult participation with a group believed to be psychic vampires
• Drug use and altered states to access the spiritual realm
• Encounters with dark spiritual entities
• The reality of spiritual warfare
• A moment of desperation that led to calling on Jesus
• Radical transformation, healing, and redemption

If you’ve ever:

• explored new age spirituality
• questioned whether all paths lead to God
• felt stuck in darkness or cycles you can’t break

This testimony is for you.

Each episode of the When Heaven Calls podcast shares full-length personal testimonies from men and women who explored the New Age, alternative spirituality, personal development, or secular paths—and who, through divine timing, encountered Christ in ways that changed everything.

You don’t need to have it all figured out to listen. These stories are shared without performance, pressure, or agenda—simply as a witness to what God is doing in real lives.

About the host:
Forest Soleil is a wife, mother, relationship coach, holistic childbirth educator and born again believer who hosts When Heaven Calls—a testimony-driven podcast centered on truth, repentance, and transformation through Jesus Christ.

Support the show: Follow/subscribe and leave a positive review or comment wherever you listen or watch.
Get updates: https://www.forestsoleil.com/when-heaven-calls-updates
Share your testimony: https://www.forestsoleil.com/submit-your-testimony
More info: https://www.forestsoleil.com/when-heaven-calls-podcast

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Before this conversation begins, I want to prepare you a little. Today's testimony isn't light. This is a story of childhood trauma, homelessness, drug use, and deep, deep involvement in the occult. A story of someone who wasn't just spiritually seeking, but actively pursuing power, encountering very dark entities, and opening doors he did not know how to close. And what's striking is this he tried everything, and I mean everything, except Jesus. Different religions and belief systems, different practices, different spiritual paths, different lifestyles. But when things got darker, when it actually mattered, none of those deities, none of those entities actually showed up until one did. This is Tom's story of going all the way into darkness, of pursuing evil, and what happened when he finally called on the name of Jesus. The Son of the Moon will be replaced with the light of Jesus. You're listening to When Heaven Calls, an intimate, cozy living room space where real people share real stories of the real work that God has done in their lives and how they've been transformed since encountering the gospel. I'm your host, Forrest Soleil. When I'm not homeschooling my youngin' or in the studio sipping tea and recording a testimony, I am supporting couples and families in building deeply connected relationships, cultivating peaceful homes, and preparing wholeheartedly for natural birth. Let's begin. Welcome back to the When Heaven Calls podcast. I'm your host, Forrest Soleil. And today I have my friend Tom here with me to share his testimony.

unknown 1:56

I don't know if you wait here.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

Thank you, Tom, for being here. Um, and you know what I was thinking this morning as I was preparing. It's so special specifically that we're doing this today, because today I finished editing Catherine, your wife's testimony.

SPEAKER_04 2:15

I love it.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

So that one's gonna go live soon. And then also today is the last day of the marriage group that we've been co-facilitating. Right. That's in several hours. So it's just like today is a lot of things in regards to you and Catherine.

SPEAKER_03 2:32

Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Yeah. Yeah, we've been co-facilitating a marriage group. Tom and Catherine have been leading us through this really great book, The Meaning of Marriage by Tim Keller. And then I've been facilitating some like communication, connection exercises. And it's been really sweet, a group of mostly kind of premarital or recently married couples. Um, so Tom, to get us started, you seem to me like someone who is a really deep thinker and contemplator and um that you probably deeply search and and research. What would you say before Jesus you were searching for in your life?

SPEAKER_02 3:15

Oh, okay. Yeah, I mean, that's a good question. I think. I mean, really, I think you go back to first time I really started to think about spiritual things. So I basically grew up in like a not really a Christian home, but like a loosely Christian. In other words, we were um Easter and Christmas Catholics.

SPEAKER_03 3:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:40

So that's where my family would go. We both my mom was a Catholic. I wasn't baptized Catholic. We weren't, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 3:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:48

But so that was kind of like the closest thing to any kind of spirituality. Um, we had a Bible in the closet, but it was again, it wasn't very present or prominent. Um, but it was around um teenagers. I was like exploring, I was looking into like, okay, um, I really um I loved rock and roll. And I kind of idolized some of the rock stars and I'll read their biographies and like almost like they were like a surrogate father in a sense, you know. And so I was like, oh, I'm gonna be like them. And um, so I remember one was Jim Morrison from the doors. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:24

I had that also similar idolization experience. Yeah, would you with him, Jim Morrison? Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

Well, he's yeah, it's kind of normal. Um, but he was really into Nietzsche. So I remember being like, oh yeah, what's Nietzsche about? So I got some books from the library. I think even I had a professor give me some Nietzsche books. I didn't understand what I was reading, but anyway, I tried. And I I got some witchcraft books, um, like about Wiccans. I was like, oh, that's really interesting. Um, I remember one of them was like, you know, unlike Christianity, we have the f feminine God and the masculine God. I'm like, yeah, that seems more appealing to me. And you know, I was more uh rooted in nature, and I never I didn't understand Christianity because something like that, you know, that was rooted in nature. I didn't really know much about it, but what I did know, I never knew anything of it that communicated that. So I would say, yeah, I was around that time in my life, like 14 through 16, where I was just trying to find something. And um, so I really I would say really around 16 is when I really started to embrace uh what I would call like a new age or like neo-pagan kind of mindset. Like I really resonated with the the awakened idea. I believed it was real that you could, you know, um you do magic. Um I also had a very vivid imagination, so that might have played part of it. And I think in my life I felt pretty powerless in terms of like my life. So it was like kind of looking for power. Um also with that around that same time, I basically had a crisis with God as I believed him to be. So I remember at one point I I went out into the field because I lived, I grew up in Western Mass, Massachusetts. And I went out to a field, and then I was like, God, I'm so mad at you. Like, I don't believe, I don't believe in me anymore. I told God, you know, it's kind of funny when you're telling I don't believe in you, but you're talking to him. Um I was like, I don't believe in you, but I, you know, music's my bad. That's what I told him. I'm like, music's my I love my worship music, you know. And at that point, I think I was around that time when I started finding alternatives for God loosely connected to Christianity. You know. Um, I don't am I answering a question? I forget what your question is.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

Yeah, just what what were you searching for? And it sounds like you you were searching for God, and even like you mentioned something about like a father figure.

SPEAKER_02 6:59

I would say I was searching for God, but not the Christian God.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:03

So I was really trying to differentiate myself from Christianity. And again, I didn't even grow up hardcore Christian.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

It was just like the the teenage angst of rejecting what your parents I think it was more than that.

SPEAKER_02 7:17

I think it was really like I've I blamed God for my life. And I was like, if if this God is really the God that exists, I still don't want him. So it was more like so. I think I was searching, but I didn't want I wanted to be a different, different God than the one of Christianity, you know. Yeah. Even as I understood it.

SPEAKER_03 7:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:40

Um so I think that um that's what I was I never was uh atheist or that never made sense to me. Like there there's obviously more than our physical reality, you know. So that never made sense to just rule out spirits and souls and a god of some sort. So I always was searching. But yeah, I would say from there I was really searching. I was definitely um pursuing um different practices, whether yoga or whatever, just uh um I really related to kind of an Eastern mindset. Because I really I I was fascinated with martial arts, which Eastern religion comes into that, you know. Uh like Buddhism and stuff. So Yeah, so I would say, yeah, it was that was uh or what led me ultimately to Jesus is eye seeking for God.

SPEAKER_01 8:35

Yeah. And what would you say was sort of like the root cause that was leading you to be searching for that? Like would you share a bit about what you did experience in your childhood and your upbringing and sort of what was the culture that you had become accustomed to or was normalized for you?

SPEAKER_02 8:55

Yeah, yeah. So basically, and as I hesitate to say this only because, yeah, I love my mom, but we made a good relationship. But, you know, it was there's a lot of violence, um, a lot of brokenness, um you know, drug drug abuse, alcohol abuse. Um, not my mom, she wasn't a drug abuser, but uh, but just a lot of that brokenness. So she was um um a victim of domestic violence through a number of my dad and my stepdad and boyfriends, and so I grew up around that. Um and my dad was murdered when I was six. Um and so that was we weren't, I mean, I was six, and my mom was divorced, so I would only see him, you know, maybe on the weekends. Um, but you know, it was pretty earth-shattering. Um I was molested when I was four. And so I had a bunch of stuff happen. And really, you you know, you grow up in a world of violence, um you know, kind of messes you up, you know. So I was pretty I remember as a kid I was very um ver very careful and I I just watched everybody and I just kept kept very quiet and like didn't um make my presence known because I didn't I because my a level of trust toward the world towards adults was so shattered that I just really did whatever I could to kind of keep away from any danger. Um so yeah, that was a lot of um what I leaned God for. Um go back to the first question, is like I was like, man, like I don't have anything. You know, but you led me even into a worse situation because we moved up to Massachusetts from Florida. I grew up was born in Florida, and um my mom married her um second or third husband, sorry, my second stepdad, and you know, you know, and again, I love him too, so put that put that out there. But uh, you know, he just didn't know how to be a dad. And he wasn't prepared for that. And so around 10 or 10 years old, I was having suicidal ideation because I was already highly traumatized. Yeah, you know, they didn't talk about that stuff in the 90s and late 80s, but I was, you know. And they just a lot of people are gonna have a reference point for that. But and so when I moved there, he was very kind of grew up in a military home, very disciplined, disciplinary, authoritarian, and he just didn't out a relate to me. So it like, I just was all trapped, you know. Um, I remember one time I was um yeah, 10 years old, and we lived on the second floor of the house my parents now owned. And uh I was like, well, maybe I could jump out the window. But then I was like, well, yeah, that will work. It's not that far. So I'm not gonna do that. But I I was willing, you know. If we were on a fourth floor or fifth, I probably maybe maybe would have done any nose. Thankfully, I wasn't, you know. But I remember, yeah, it was really dark. Um, I was just very felt very alone, um, very, I think sad, maybe, even though I probably wouldn't have had it even know how to have said that. Um, and then at 11, I remember I went through this phase where I felt like an old cynical man. Like, because I was just so like at 11. Yeah, I know it's sad because my son's 12 and I think about it, I'm like, wow. When he was 11, I was thinking about that. I was like, dude, this is crazy. But anyway, um, yeah, I was I just remember like consciously because I because I'd watched people for so long, I had picked up, you know, how people are. Um, and I'm not saying I'm an expert. Um, I've wanted to distrust some of the ways I pick up things. Anyway, um, but yeah, I'd just be like, ah, I can't, I just feel so like bitter and cynical and walled up, you know. So it's really difficult. Um and really, uh, yeah, things got worse and worse with me and my stepdad, um, because he couldn't control me and I wasn't controllable. And so we would get into physical altercations, and so as I got into teenagehood, I kind of embraced like uh sad grunge music and stuff, and uh really yes, to very depressed, you know, um constantly thinking about suicide. And I had planned, I had a plan to like one day um when I was a certain age, take my life, and you know, it's like I'm gonna do it now, I'll wait. I don't know what my recent thing was, but no, I'd have to think about that. But uh, but yeah, so I was just very empty. You know, I was very empty. Um, I did have an encounter with Jesus when I was wanna say eight.

SPEAKER_03 14:07

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_02 14:08

Yeah, because my grandma gave me a Bible um and she kind of gave me half the gospel, the bad news. So she's like, Yeah, if I'm watching you and he's gonna judge you, better be good, which is halfway true, but it's not fully true.

SPEAKER_03 14:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:23

Right. It's like, yeah, God does see what you do, He does is a pleas with our evil, but He provides the rest of the plan, right? He provides a way out. She didn't tell me that part. But I was reading the Bible. I still have it actually, and I read it, and I was a I was a good reader, so I read and um get into it. And I remember one time it was like I had this um yeah, this encounter like Jesus appeared to me. Um I can't even make perfectly describe it, but basically he just really gave me this feel press sense that he was a healer. That he was my healer, you know. And so I think that's part of what informed the later discussion about you know talking to God. I think I still say in the background, you know, relationship with God. It was kind of like back there somewhere. But I I think that what I wouldn't say, I don't know about it will say put my faith in him at that time. But either way, I did encounter him um in that in that dark space. So um and I of course that was a dark time right after my dad was murdered, and you know, there was a lot of abuse with uh my mom's second husband abusing her very tumultuous. I was uh constantly relating to people through violence. Like I had borne glasses and people make fun of me and I would just flash out, you know, and then I would uh Yeah, I just had a lot of scary moments. One time, one moment uh was and this kind of answers part part of your question of like just the emptiness I felt. I blacked out in a fight with somebody and then woke up on top of them and like I was really scared. Like really scared when I was like, Thank gosh. I started crying, you know, you know, it was just like I blacked out in violence and my rage, you know. Wow You know, rage is rooted in fear, so I was just, I think, very afraid. So yeah, I think that was it. You know, I think that counter with Jesus, I think showed me that there was there was something more, um, but then you know, having the um counter-rejecting God because I couldn't make sense of the evil that had taken place.

SPEAKER_04 16:43

Right.

SPEAKER_02 16:44

And really that my relationship with my stepdad and feeling so alone and moving to a holy place and being very feeling very isolated and um judged and misunderstood because it was two different cultures. I was from urban Florida, moved to rural rural North Carolina, urban western, sorry, Western Mass. And I was like, it was just two different worlds. People just couldn't relate to me. I didn't relate to them.

SPEAKER_04 17:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:08

I was eccentric anyway, but that didn't help. But anyway, you know, I'm not a centric now though. It's a joke. Um, anyway, so I can relate to that so much.

SPEAKER_01 17:19

I moved like 16 times growing up as a kid, you know, and just getting plucked from one culture and climate and all of that, and then being placed in an entirely different environment. And what was cool here is like not cool here, and it's very difficult. Just that alone for a child is without all the other stuff that you were experiencing. I'm so curious as a parent, and you know, I know your children, they're amazing. I think you guys do a fantastic job of parenting. How has it been for you over the years, like reconciling the little one within you and what you've experienced, and then having these children living in your home at different ages and maybe seeing yourself in them? Or like, do you mostly have an experience of recognizing parts of yourself in them? Or do you find that they are allowed to be so different than you ever were that it's actually like a completely different experience? I'm just curious what that's like for you, yeah, parenting and not having had like the kind of childhood that you really deserved.

SPEAKER_02 18:35

Yeah, um, I think it would be a mix, you know. Think you inevitably you do what and find things about yourself and your kids. I think that's kind of inescapable. I mean, I think you want to see the good things, you know. Or sometimes you see bad things project, maybe. Maybe they're not there, but so yeah, I would say both. I would say, yeah, definitely um in it, it's inevitable. Your kids aren't gonna have things that are like you, whether it's genetic or, you know, being around you or whatever the reason. But um, so yeah, I think that. Um, but yeah, in terms of the challenge, because I wasn't modeled how to parent. The challenge of learning how to parent after God's work is probably the biggest challenge I've had to face, maybe ever.

SPEAKER_03 19:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:29

Because you do have to like, okay, well, you know, authoritarianism doesn't work. I wish that my parents generation understood that doesn't work, you know. Um don't do what I do, do what I say.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

Yes. Oh my god, I say that all the time.

SPEAKER_02 19:44

Yeah, you know. This is ridiculous. Like come on, you undermine your own authority saying things like that. But anyway, so you know. So yeah, I've had to learn, and you know, um, Catherine's been very helpful in that. She's much more emotionally attuned to our kids and just a team in general. So it helps me to like hear her, you know, sometimes on one in, but to general. It's like, well, yeah, you got a point. Um, so yeah, balancing that out, I think is the biggest thing of like you can't. There is a time where you can you can like you have to be more commanding, so to speak, with kids. But there's a time you can't. And two of my kids are definitely in that stage. They don't commanding doesn't work. It's more like a co cooperation, coaching, supporting, you know.

SPEAKER_04 20:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:35

Not just like do this, don't do that.

SPEAKER_04 20:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:37

You know, that's for like littles. Um so yeah, that's a big adjustment. Um, but honestly, I see it as a an amazing gift. Like you get to watch these human beings, you know, that really are you get to steward this time with them, but you get to let them unfold and become, you know, these amazing people. You know, so it's so beautiful. It's really I don't think there's quite anything like it, you know, to just be able to be like, wow, what will you be? And not setting any limits or expectations on what they need to be. Because I I don't really believe in that. You know, I just I want them to like be good people. I want them to love people, I want them to love God. Uh but beyond that and I want them to, you know, have something that they're interested in, obviously, but besides like video games or TV or something. But well besides that, yeah, I mean I try not to project what I think they should be, you know.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

Yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_02 21:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

So back to earlier when you were talking about sort of searching and you were reading different texts and being exposed to different philosophers and belief systems. What during that chapter of your life? It sounds like it was in your teenage. Years. What were you gaining from that? Like, was it life-giving for you? Like, how was it shaping your perception of reality and beliefs about the world? And what would you say were like the fruits of learning or taking on those systems and those beliefs?

SPEAKER_02 22:21

Well, uh, I wouldn't say it's more like a part of the picture. So I would say it's more of a thing where I really craved human intimacy. Um, I craved escape soap, and I I craved God or wanted some kind of God, you know. So I had those three strains in my life of going at once. Um, so when I was 13, I made a commitment to do every drug that there was. That was my goal. Pretty nihilistic, you know. But I was like, I don't do I remember um dare was when I was sixth grade and I was 12, because I'm a September baby, so I my I'm older than most people in my age period, my year, you know, school years. Um, and I was 12, and I'm like, oh yeah, that sounds amazing, what you're describing. Dare to not a term for drugs. And so when I was 13, I went to the there's a little, you know, encyclopedia, looked up all the drugs. I'm like, oh wow, I want an immature commitment. I'd call it like a vow, you know, to do all those drugs. And um, so I wouldn't say spirituality at first really did anything for me. Um, but as I progressed, basically what I started doing was um dexrobothorphine, hydrobromide, it's DXN for short. It's the same cobster. You might have heard of people using copsro as a driver. And basically it's related to uh PCB and ketamine. And so it's like between those two. So ketamine's a cat tranquilizer, PCP is a horse tranquilizer, um, D TMX or DXN is a uh human tranquilizer, yeah. Disassociated, right? So I would take that, and basically what happened was um I started, I was a runaway kid and I ran away from home, and then I started traveling and I was down in Key West in my travels, Key West Florida, and um me and a friend of our mine took the copster. Well, it was pills at that point, but either way, and we had a shared vision of this entity, this being that approached us.

SPEAKER_03 24:45

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 24:46

And it was like we both have experienced it, which you can't do if it's just a delusion.

SPEAKER_03 24:51

Right.

SPEAKER_02 24:52

So we we uh counted as being, and it was through a full moon. We were on the ocean, this being was communicating to us through the moon, and and it was very real, and uh I mean I was real, I don't think it was God though, but and I was like, oh, so that opened my whole vista. I was like, okay, and I theoretically I believe in some spiritual realm that something was out there, but then it became real. I was like, no, this is real, there it's actually real, there's really spiritual beings. Um and so at that point I really was like, okay, I'm gonna um pursue um my pursue this. And so the thing I felt called to do, which is kind of crazy, but I was like, ah, I'm gonna go to the most evil place I could think of.

SPEAKER_01 25:41

You that was your context, evil, the most evil.

SPEAKER_02 25:45

And be like uh but I don't know what I've kind of bad in my mind, I guess. But anyway, and that's what I did. So I went to uh DC, Washington, DC, was the place I thought of. It's like the place to go to, you know. And uh agreed. At the time it was the murder capital of the country or one of them.

SPEAKER_03 26:04

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 26:04

You know, I think uh Detroit has always been out there, but DC wasn't the time. I think they've cleaned it up a bit. But anyway, so yeah, I went there, got a got on a bus, Key West. They'd love to get you out of there to be a homeless. So get you on a bus.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

So when you said you were traveling, that was experiencing homelessness. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:24

Yeah, I was always homeless. Yeah, yeah. I mean, sometimes people would take me in or something, but no, I would stay at crack houses or on people's couches or on the streets or under bridges or whatever. You know, you entertain it. Yeah, pretty much done it. Um, so yeah, I was um I went up there and it was pretty intense. So I was on the spiritual quest, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:49

And then basically in DC, I had like it was some really scary, like demonic, um, I would say demonic dark encounters with uh and what was your you I wasn't clear on when you said you wanted to find the evilest place you could go to, but what was your intention in going there? Like to counteract evil or to like experience evil?

SPEAKER_02 27:13

Oh yeah, so basically, and I don't even know how I arrived at this, so bear with me on that one. But basically I was like, I wanna I wanna be a healer. I wanted to heal people and help people, I wanted to like help people in darkness, yeah, as I understood it. And so that was what I was like, I'm gonna go there and face evil.

SPEAKER_03 27:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:39

And I don't know if I thought I was gonna be evil or I don't know. I'd have to think about that one. But yeah, it was really scary and uh it was pretty much changed my life. Um there was uh basically as an example, I was um um I always struggled with sleep. So uh some of you may know this, or you may know this when you've been uh molested or had really messed up background. A lot of kids like they pee their bed up until a late age. Because they it just messes with their, you know. So that was me. I pee the bed until I was like 14, yeah, 15. Um, and it was because of the trauma, you know. Yeah. And I didn't know that until really like 10 years ago. But um, I mean my parents said, you know, no deals were out of touch. But um, so yeah, so I um I slept really bad, like really deeply, couldn't wake up. But yeah, it changed me because, you know, it's uh basically uh my sleeping pattern switched as as an example of how it changed me from being completely deep sleep, couldn't wake up to the opposite, or because there's so much danger and so many predatorial um situations and things like that, I basically um had to be able to wake up very quickly, you know, and be attuned to like any noise coming near me, so I'd wake up. And uh so there's just a lot of crazy things that happen there. Um a lot of uh I would say like people in the occult, you know, um, but not the friendly, fun, let's hang out and you know, do ashwaganda kind of but like, you know, predatorial, dark, sinister kind of occult stuff. Um and so that kind of just can continue to deepen um the layers of what I was experiencing because I did have actual continued experience um with um entities, astral projection, telepathy, started doing those types of things.

SPEAKER_01 29:47

Learning about those and specifically trying to do them, or it just was yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:52

Yeah, I just it just kind of came in, you know, just because I was so open and wanting that. It would come in and um and then uh about after like I forget how long, a month and a half or so by mom's like calls me up or call her up and she's like, we want to get you a greyhound to or a a train ticket to come home.

SPEAKER_03 30:14

It's like okay.

SPEAKER_02 30:16

Because I did try to be sensitive to whatever was leading me.

SPEAKER_03 30:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:19

And I didn't really even know what it was. Okay, well, maybe I'll be late or something. I know I need to talk like that, of course. That's a Christian thing. But however I phrased it, it's like, okay, well, I'm gonna go. I feel feel good about this. So I left, and that was probably really smart might say my life. Um, but I went went there. Um my mom tried to take me in, but we know we had a tumultuous history, and I was a different person, so I was even more um kind of in in my stepdad's face, and even more unwilling to be um tyrannized by fear. So I was obviously I lasted very short time. So here I am up in Massachusetts and homeless again. Like, okay, great, you know. Um but I'm still practicing some of that, and there's some different things that happened. Um, but basically a big real pivotal thing is I met this girl that um convinced me I was a psychic vampire. And I was still there's attempts. So I'm like, wait, hold on. So um psychic vampire doesn't sound like a good thing. But I wanted to be healer still. That never went away. Um, so I was all kind of mixed up. Like, well, is this the way to get there? You know, like I don't know. I mean, I guess I'll try it, you know. Um, try to be there, get there this way. Um, I don't think I thought too hard about it. I just wanted power, you know, and I was getting more power and I was being affirmed, which obviously you probably could pick up if it wasn't very much affirmed, you know. So I was being affirmed and encouraged by these vampires that I was a gifted vampire, so um gifted in in, you know, uh psychic stuff, like reading minds and all that stuff, right? So I was like, okay, well, you know, this is what I'm doing. Um and she kind of opened me up to the idea of like there's a spiritual war going on. And so, and that wasn't hard, that wasn't very unpalatable for me, but to be like, oh, there actually is one, literally. Okay, wow. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 32:31

So I And can you share more about like this group of people that believed they're vampires? Could you share more about their beliefs and practices? I mean, when I lived in Austin, Texas, I knew through hearing about it through friends that I had that there was a group that believed that they were vampires and they had these parties called Vamp and they were very like sex parties, but I wonder if there was other things going on, you know, knowing what I have learned now about vampiristic activities. So yeah, I'm just curious about that.

SPEAKER_02 33:07

Yeah, it I mean, it's probably different, depends on the culture. Um Western mass, people aren't even gonna be having orgies. It's just not very it's a little more like uh puritanical. Maybe now it's not.

SPEAKER_03 33:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 33:21

People are a little more reserved. If they would do that, you probably wouldn't know about it. You don't they wouldn't be talked about. Um people are just more careful about what they share. But no, that wasn't really the entry point for me. It was more um basically uh yeah, it was more people desiring. Unfortunately, um, like my girl that girlfriend I had was really to hurt people. So I'm not sure what their motivation was, but her and her friends, that's kind of what they were trying to do.

SPEAKER_01 33:54

Like physically hurt people, emotionally hurt people.

SPEAKER_02 33:56

Yeah, psychically have that power over people. Um where I where that that town in Western Mass is actually really well known for uh witchcraft and uh not maybe well known publicly, but there's a lot of witchcraft, you know, a lot of darkness there. And um, so yeah, that was their motive. And again, that's why I stuck out. It was kind of weird. I was like, well, I won't hurt anybody.

SPEAKER_04 34:20

Right.

SPEAKER_02 34:20

I want to help people, but I am getting power. And she she convinced me I was like the you know, the son of the princes of the vampires. And because I was more uh just naturally proficient or whatever in it. Um levels. So it's basically like uh I forget the highest level now, I think it was like 20. And uh I was able to do at level three, three guess uh what um people could do at like level 15 or something, you know, stuff like that, like a prodigy or something. I you know, some of that stuff I don't know, which I give countenance to any anymore. But but you know, I believe, you know, I believe it. And well, it's true. I did those do those things, and that did happen. Um so okay. Um but yeah, basically how I was taught anyway is there different types. There's a psychic vampire is the highest, and there's a blood vampire, which are people who were uh associated with blood, um literally, you know, human blood, and then there's like other degrees lower than that.

SPEAKER_03 35:28

Right.

SPEAKER_02 35:28

And so they said consider psychic the highest because they didn't even need to use blood to like control the wool. They could just use their mind. So yeah, that was uh, you know, pretty dark turn, I would say. Um and basically during that time she uh we would have like this the astral projections or like vivid dreams with akin to astral projections, like visions and shared experiences in dreams. Um so at one point I had uh basically like cause of mutiny, where and some of this like I'm not trying to laugh because it's funny. It's just like it seems so outlandish, but apparently, you know, it causes mutiny with like all these like people that were vampires under what they called the office. The office replaced the uh the kind of vampiric, this is the lore, right? The vampiric dynasty. It was like a like these uh princes or whatever, these uh kind of royalty, I guess. They replaced the vampiric family and they're kind of like a bureaucra bureaucratic kind of arm, if that makes sense. And so they would kind of like control people and they would be the authority and they would put people in their place and things like that. And uh in the dream astral world that like causes a big mutiny where like a third of the vampires uh follow or didn't follow me, but I think that's them not to follow them. And so after that, they were kind of like made their selves known.

SPEAKER_01 37:08

Unbeknownst to you.

SPEAKER_02 37:10

Like this just happened as you were dreaming, or you like it happened when I was dreaming, then the the girl said that's what I did. Um, but then things happened after like where these office beings like um actually c contacted me. Like, we're we're gonna we're after you, you know, we're gonna hurt you. So whether it happened, I don't know. But regardless, after that, I did get these communications from these uh entities or whatever. And I don't really know if it was a human behind it. I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_01 37:45

Yeah. Because it was like a letter or an email, or you think like spirit realm communication. I see.

SPEAKER_02 37:52

Yeah, there's a number of times. Um because I would take um probably similar to how people do like ashwaganda now.

SPEAKER_01 37:59

That wasn't a big you mean ayahuasca?

SPEAKER_02 38:02

Or ashwagandha. Maybe you do too much. That's fine.

SPEAKER_01 38:08

You said ashwagandha a few times, but I didn't realize you meant ayahuasca.

SPEAKER_02 38:13

But that wasn't a thing.

SPEAKER_01 38:14

The kids over there smoking shot Tavari.

SPEAKER_02 38:16

Yeah, I mean that wasn't really a thing when I was a kid. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:20

I mean it's around.

SPEAKER_01 38:22

Yeah, I was wondering that. Like these plant medicines. Yeah, it wasn't.

SPEAKER_02 38:25

I mean, P.O.E. was the big one, you know, when I was a kid. But you had to like anyway. That's a rabbit show. Um so uh yeah, so I would take that a lot to to in interact with the spiritual realm.

SPEAKER_01 38:41

Mind older substances to interact with the spiritual realm.

SPEAKER_02 38:48

Yeah. Which, you know, if I think especially if you believe in it, it actually leads to you having spiritual encounters, you know. Um, so yeah, we um so the uh so yeah, it got it got darker and darker. And I knew that these entities were after me, and there's a few different times where things happened. Like, for instance, um one time I um went to this other city with somebody, and then we came back, and this guy, like we were just hanging out, and he just changed and started attacking me.

SPEAKER_01 39:27

He changed from human form to another type of form?

SPEAKER_02 39:30

Just changed like Oh, his his spirit changed like his Yeah, he was like we're lapping and all of a sudden I started trying to Wow Wow And I had to like get away, you know, and then actually for a friend of mine, same thing happened. And then uh this girl was sort of singing um same thing. And they all tried to like choke me. Wow, choke me to death. And so I was like and the the office said we were gonna send three people, so three people, you know, came out for me.

SPEAKER_01 40:02

And I mean, I imagine when you're experiencing, I've never I haven't experienced homelessness. I I have befriended some people who have, and like I'm curious person, I've asked questions and stuff. But I would imagine when you're in that experience, a majority of the time your needs aren't fully met. And so probably a lot of the people that you're associating with are like you're interacting with them from a place of everybody's needs aren't met. And that's that causes this like fight or flight, you know, maybe hyper-vigilant kind of state. Maybe there's, you know, also mental emotional disturbances, whether that's from childhood, or I've read that a lot of people can be like army veterans and they've experienced, you know, military veterans have experienced like PTSD. But um I'm I'm curious because I've read that oftentimes people who have experienced homelessness, especially for a long amount of time, like you have, that they've seen crazy things like, you know, like that there's a lot of trafficking of of people that are traveling. Um, you know, because the assumption is like, oh, less people are gonna look for this person if they're taken, you know, I've heard for like our organ harvesting and all kinds of stuff. Like, have you have did you experience that sort of thing being on the streets?

SPEAKER_02 41:24

Yeah. I wouldn't say pork is hard harvesting, but you probably wouldn't know about that. Maybe did. Um, no, yeah, I mean traffic, yeah, set trafficking, people selling themselves or being told forced to sell themselves, right? Yeah, that stuff happens far too much, you know. Um Yeah, it's not, you know, it's not for the thing heart. Don't get homeless, don't become homeless, Stevie. Um, you know, it's the world's a dark place and there's dark people. Um Yeah, it's it's it's pretty scary, you know. Um, but you do have to be very vigilant. Um most people most people I've met to have some kind of abuse in their background, sexual, physical, or you know. I mean, there's two just things I've heard that are yeah, you wouldn't want any person to go through that I've heard people go through, you know. So Yeah, most people aren't there um by accident. There's a reason they don't feel like they have a home or a place to be. Um and a lot of people are it's not, you know, they're capable in the sense in terms of a lot of people are intelligent. They could given different circumstances or a different upbringing, but yeah, it is really sad. Um but those situations I mentioned, I wouldn't say it was uncanny, you know. And again, I can't fully describe it in a way that would convince anybody unless you were there. But it was something where you're like, yeah, there's no real good explanation for this. And you do see spiritual things happening where people are taken over by something else, like they just changed, like anybody.

SPEAKER_01 43:07

Like another entity oppressing.

SPEAKER_02 43:10

Right. So yeah, all that to say, like basically things got worse and worse for me. Like they didn't really get better. And uh even though I got more power, psychic power, um, things didn't really get better. They got worse. And so I came to a point where basically um toward the end of my journey in that world, um, and I believed in all the you know basic things that most new major people believe in. Reincarnation, you know, um uh I don't know, the staples. You know, I can't think of any others right now. You know, it's actual projections, not very uncommon. Contacting different deities. And so basically, um, down the road I met another girl that convinced me that are into Hinduism. So then I kind of married the two psychic vampires. Hinduism.

SPEAKER_01 44:02

Eastern psychic vampire.

SPEAKER_02 44:04

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so she was really into it. She was very deep into it. She actually belonged to a Krishna um Ashram. That's what they call him, right?

SPEAKER_04 44:14

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 44:15

For years and went through that whole process. He advanced me that I was Vishnu, which, you know, again. So come on. But but I wanted I wanted to believe it. I wanted to believe I was special. I wanted to believe I'm at it. I wanted to believe I was important. So I believed her. And again, similar things. I had more encounters. And I could call upon Krishna. He would show up. I could talk to Vishnu. You know, we had a some kind of relationship, I guess. Um, I I would say I've probably worshipped him, Krishna, Vishnu. You know, Krishna's just an avatar vishnim, but for those that aren't familiar with the at least my understanding, maybe there's some other stories in Hinduism. It's pretty uh layered, complicated. But I know there's actually at least one stream that believes Krishna is the avatar Vishnu. So anyway, y'all would talk with them, and then we were doing that whole thing. I was embracing that part of my spiritual journey. It felt better than the darker upper belly of kind of call. Um, you know, um, I felt a little more satisfying. Like I never felt like I could talk to anybody in the vampire thing. I felt like I was a me powerful vampire, and I had a spirit animal that would kind of help me in dark times. Um, you know, when I was feeling really distressed, I had a spirit animal at protecting it as an animal, so I can talk to it and worship it, certainly. So that kind of gave me like something outside of myself to worship. Um, and basically we would do the same thing. Take the DMX, DXN, um, my DMX, the rapper, TXN. And uh we would uh one time um we were taking it together. We had shared visions too, same thing, you know, shared experiences and stuff. Um one time her and I took um T T XM together. And uh this was the beginning of the kind of an end of my journey toward Christ, you know, um before Christ, you know. So I was um we were sitting there and I felt this like tug um on my kept feeling this tug on my lake, and it was like pretty forceful and it like burned. It's like burning tug. And I was like, okay, fine, fine, okay. So I closed my eyes. As soon as I closed my eyes, there was this like um ocean. It was like this vast ocean, like no mountains, just an ocean, you know. Um, and I was on this boat, and there's two men on this boat, and they were uh like negative color people, you know, you know, you seem like what people look like in negative negative phone.

SPEAKER_01 46:59

I see, like negative black and white.

SPEAKER_02 47:01

Yeah, but they were colored, but you know, and they're like, hey, uh, so all you need to do is just like cast your bird into the sea. And I'm like, oh, that sounds great. Like I just love to cast my bird and I think they said burn into the sea. And I so as soon as I did, here I'm thinking this is a good thing. As soon as I did, I was like pulled down into what I always describe as hell.

SPEAKER_03 47:24

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_02 47:25

Yeah. So I was like, had this um, it's pretty like nightmarish. It's basically like people like screaming with despair. Um, but like beyond anything you know you've ever heard, like utter, I don't know, it's hurts.

SPEAKER_01 47:41

Just tormenting.

SPEAKER_02 47:42

Yeah, oh yeah. And then there's another aspect where people are being tortured, and it was just really gruesome. And uh I try to call it to Vishnu, he didn't show up. And so I went through this for who knows how long. I don't even know. Um, and finally it dissipated, and I was like, oh my gosh. I'm like, what if just go through? I felt like I was raped.

SPEAKER_04 48:07

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 48:07

Just felt like so violated. He betrayed by Vishnu.

SPEAKER_04 48:12

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 48:12

He didn't show up, actually. We didn't do anything. He just watched me. Like, hey, are you part of this somehow? So it was, yeah, it was weird. I wasn't like that. It didn't help me at all. But um so that was the beginning of a journey. I had a multiple of those, um, basically.

SPEAKER_01 48:35

Did you feel like you were witnessing everything, or did you feel like in fear that you were a a part of where you were in that hell experience?

SPEAKER_02 48:45

Yeah, it was both. Because there was a way to know if what would happen, you know, or what if you could get out. Yeah. No, I felt totally trapped. And it uh yeah. I don't even know how it changed exactly, but to where it dissipated. Uh it took a while. Um so then I had another um later, because basically from then on, anytime I try to encounter the spiritual world, it was these like demonic, like dark, you know, experiences. Anything. Even like mushrooms. I used to take mushrooms and be all happy and fun. Yeah, that would be that was dark. Everything was dark.

SPEAKER_01 49:27

I've had some really demonic mushroom experiences.

SPEAKER_02 49:30

And a lot of times people would think, oh mushroom, mushrooms are always fun. But no, it was sorry, everything was dark. Um, even weed, everything. I kind of was just everything was dark. Um, then I had another big one where it's like a horde of like demons, I would say, were like running after me, and they're all in my mind. And like it was insane. I couldn't, I couldn't even think clearly. I was just like, oh my gosh, this is uh yeah, it was just too, it was so overwhelming. Well, I was with a friend of mine and she was sort of like a believer-ish. Um she's like, I was telling her what was going on. I was like, well, here, let's go in my van and we'll pray. And or let's just call my van. I don't know if she said pray or not, but and we got when we got in there, she started like kind of christening or praying over her van. Kind of like maybe you would do an exorcism or Catholic exorcism, especially, they would do something like that. And like I remember like everything started to clear up and like the chaos of all these like spirits yawn at me and in my mind, like cleared up, and then um I like they like went away, and she and she was like, like, oh, it's gone. But then she started reading the Bible and they came back, and then I um hadn't go to sleep. I just went to sleep. So we go to sleep. Can't do this anymore. Um, so that was a huge one though, because it's like uh she called up to Jesus and started praying and praying over to me, and then the spirits went away. I'm like, wait. And there was a lot, it was like a horde of like spirits, you know. Like you could see him and feel them. And it was like it was so overwhelming and powerless, you know. So then I had another one where it was um uh yeah, like, you know, this is hard for probably some people to swallow, but it's true. It's like I saw like a lake of fire and Satan appeared. And again, no matter what the whole context, the office was after me. So I believe, you know, these like demons were after me. But they didn't prevail. Like they didn't the three people they sent, it didn't kill me. So then I started getting these interactions with these other entities, and Satan, I I think, I mean, he seemed to find himself as such appeared to me and was like, Oh, you're mine. And I'm like, Oh, well, you're mine. And that's how this lake of fire, and I'm like, oh gosh, ooh, how am I gonna get out of this? So I was terrified, as you can imagine. Really, that's not even a good word. There's not even a good word for it. It's like utter horror, you know. I was just completely terrified. Um, so then I had another vision. Um, this is like within you know months.

SPEAKER_01 52:29

And these were all psychedelic, like okay. Induced, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:34

But they're very real, you know. Um, and I had a lot of experience at this point with the psychic, you know, astral world, or I mean spiritual world. So you could differentiate, you know, between just like, you know, your own crazy and actual entities, you know. Um so yeah, this one basically was like completely black, and there was a pile of bodies, like a massive mountain of bodies. And there's these like demon things chasing me again. Um, and I was like scared to death, um, trapped. They were kind of cornying me. There was nowhere to go. And uh I called out to Jesus. These evangelists in the town I was in, California, were telling me about tell telling me about Jesus. But I I didn't want to say like I would have thought to call out to. I just I don't know, I didn't have a rational, it wasn't wasn't like I had this process in the moment. Like I knew I couldn't call to G Buddha, I knew I could off Pishta or Vik Vishnu, I knew I couldn't, and of course not the vampires, because they're part of it. So so I called out to Jesus and he showed up. So as soon as I did, you know, think about pivots black, right? It's completely no light. The only thing you can see is these little demon things chasing you. And there's like this pure white light that appeared like in the top right corner of that soon, you know, and this light got bigger and bigger and closer and closer to where all I can see is light. And then I then a friend of mine, we were under the brave strengthing, and I was on this TXM, and he was like, Hey, uh, what are you doing? Open my eyes, and I saw demons in them, and it was like, oh gosh, like you're not uh you have demons or something. And uh he's like, Yeah, you're right, I do. I was like, Oh my gosh, this is so scary. Um, but I would say, you know, I would say that's when I would say that's when I became a believer in the sense of like I had an encounter on Jesus, called up Jesus and he came. Um but if so for about a month, I was like, I really want to go to church. But I never had no energy to go there. Now, what's funny about this is the church was a mile away. And when you're homeless, you walk a lot. How come I didn't walk walk a mile?

SPEAKER_04 54:53

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 54:54

Well, it wasn't physical, it was spiritual. Like spiritually, the demons oppressing me didn't want me to go. Finally, after like a ton of effort, I finally made it to this church, a church, the church of the evangelist in the town I was in in San Luis Obispo, California, and that's where I was at. And uh when I went, I didn't like the pastor, and I fell asleep. Now, if you say the cult at all, that's pretty common to people to be put to sleep, like a s like a demonic slip. So I fell asleep. And I why didn't there's no reason I didn't like this pastor. No reason. Oops. There's like nothing he said or did, but it was the demons, right? But that wasn't that wasn't in the case. I was like, that's weird. Like, first of all, I knew I wasn't tired enough to go to sleep.

SPEAKER_04 55:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:46

But I was put to sleep. So I knew I was like, that's doesn't make sense. Why did that happen? And then what I did and was like, oh, come on.

SPEAKER_03 55:55

Yeah. Like this guy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:58

So two weeks later, about front of my friends, you know, we were all like living on the bridge together, and they're like, hey, you're always doing this DXM stuff. Let's all do it together. Well, sure, let's do it. So we all got some. We stole, stole some. And the first day, this is a seven-day journey. Basically, me and two people went to Hell Yet, that same place I went when I was having that tug on my feet. So we started having these visions. Um, again, shared visions, shared experiences, although they had their own experiences within the experience, you know. Um, they went their own way on it. But and it was it was uh something out of a movie, you know. So if you've ever seen exorcism or anything, like they mimic the demonic uh possession and uh the loss of bodily control pretty well in those movies. Um so that's what happened. Like they were flopping around, almost like seizure-like.

SPEAKER_01 56:56

Um because you could both see in the vision as well as see the well that was what was weird.

SPEAKER_02 57:02

So the other visions I was immersed, right? But this one I was able to be outside of it. And I believe it was because of my encounter with Jesus a month prior. I think he, you know, I can't fully explain.

SPEAKER_01 57:16

The veil was like different for you.

SPEAKER_02 57:17

Well, I think I have the Holy Spirit in me. I just haven't fooled you said yes. I haven't you said yes, but yeah, it's yeah, hard to explain enough. But no, I think that's what it was. I think you had the Holy Spirit in me. Because there's a few things that happen where it's like my friend was calling out for help, and then like this flash of light came out of me and helped him. It's like brought winding, like white light. That wasn't me. Not an angel, I'm not the Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_01 57:44

And you and your friend also both experienced.

SPEAKER_02 57:47

Yeah, and he's like, What are you? What did you do? I'm like, Wow. And I remember being like, that's not me. But I couldn't explain it fully.

SPEAKER_03 57:53

Right.

SPEAKER_02 57:54

But I think it was the Holy Spirit. And again, I can't have the mechanics of all that, right? I don't think anyone fit what that even anyway. But it did happen when he experienced it. I did, I was like, Well, I don't know, but I'm glad you're out of your situation. So it was really weird because basically the other guy, unlike him, because he was trying to like do what I was trying to do in BC, he was trying to defeat Satan, which I remember being like, well, that's not gonna work here. Um you're not you have to be holy and not not have any evil to defeat. So I need that much, you know. So the other guy though, unlike him, was completely embracing the demonic, had no resistance to it.

SPEAKER_03 58:38

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_02 58:39

So through him, and again, it's hard to explain, I can't verify it, but he changed.

SPEAKER_01 58:46

I wasn't talking after that experience.

SPEAKER_02 58:48

No, I don't know, Darryn. He was not, I was not talking to my friend. I was talking to some a different entity. His voice changed, his eyes, everything. Wow. Even the way he talks, he wasn't a very, you know, I don't mean this a bad way, just a smart guy, not a high vocabulary or anything. But this guy was, this being was talking about concepts and ideas on things with me that were not something. It just was not him. So that was it was interesting. So basically here I was like watching my friend, although I was kind of in it too, but watching my friend and helping my friend as he was being tortured and trying to defeat Satan, even though that was a ridiculous idea. Um, for seven days, every day we would go get more and more DXN. Oh my goodness. And go down the rattle hole for seven days. We did this. Meanwhile, my other friend, every night, I'm having this conversation with the other entity.

SPEAKER_01 59:45

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 59:45

And so there's a lot there, too much to hack. But basically, it was, I mean, I don't know if it was scene himself or what, it doesn't really matter.

SPEAKER_04 59:53

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 59:53

But it was definitely um a demon that was definitely trying to persuade me in so many words to say the course.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:02

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:04

Sta stay on track with darkness. So it was it was weird. It was very strange. So basically around the Sabbath day, um I had uh there's this whole thing, and it's too much to get into, but basically um, I was tricked into letting these spirits into my mind. Um spirits. They're like, oh, if you do this, you're gonna really help our cops, and we're gonna be able to do it. And I was like, oh you know, yeah, fake too. I was probably up more or less for seven days. Yeah. And taking the substance.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:43

Yeah, and they're tricksters.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:45

And they're tricksters. So I let these in it unlike any other time. I there was two other cop beings in my mind, and it was very severe. I was like, oh my gosh, I could hear them.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:58

You could hear the thoughts of them.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:59

Well, yeah, talk and they talk to each other, talk about me, talk to me, you know. I was like, oh man. And I felt it's like hard to explain, but just like anyway. Don't blame them a cult, do you suppose? But so I was, yeah, I was really scared. Um the whole for years I had every time I closed my eyes, I saw eyes looking back at me. So there was some spirit in me already, which was crazy, you know, for my life years, that was how it was. Um but this was different. This was like them talking, talking to me, talking about me. I couldn't get them, couldn't shut like stop hearing them. And it wasn't schizophrenic, it was doing what's in it. Um so then I told my friend, I'm like, hey, listen, uh this needs to but I need I need Jesus. I need Jesus to help me. And this is the guy that I woke up under the bridge, you know, came out of my vision.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:01

The one that accepted the light of help, or the one that was.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:07

And he he's like, I'm like, I need Jesus, I need you to help me. And he's like, Well, Jesus said, Oh, no one can help me, is what I told him. He's like, Okay, yeah, I'll help you. So, you know, ironically, this Christian, former Christian that actually made a pact with Satan, like an actual pact, uh hypothetical. He actually sold it, sold a Satan, was the one to get Jesus. So he knew how to do the things. So we didn't say a percent of prayer, he was just like, well, what you need to do is you need to repent and renounce the the the spirits and the sins that you've committed. Um and I'm like, okay, so I did. I mean, it took like two hours, took a long time to go through it all. Math and heroin and sex and uh violence, all the things. I just went through a whole list of things. Anything I could think of. Really? Anything I think of. Just later, just feeling, okay, I'm gonna say everything I can think of. I remember I stepped out of under a bridge and like I felt this like excuse me. I felt forgiven. Like I felt light, I felt forgiven. It's hard to explain, but like but that's just that feeling. Like I felt the that the heaviness that I was under was just gone. And I remember just like, oh man, forgive it. Um and that was when I consciously, because before I'd say it was a believer, but that's when I was like, I'll go Jesus. Not turn back, you know, there's no other option. So I lived in the rage for a couple more weeks. Um one time I remember I got I drank a bunch of alcohol really quick and got drunk, but then got off boom, made me sober. Like in an instant.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:12

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:12

And I was like, whoa. And I really, I really felt like I need to get off, get out of the streets, get out from under the bridge. So I went to this guy, Steve. He was a uh he actually married Catherine and I um, but he was one of the believers in the church that I went to um that one that first time. Um and he came out of the bridge and actually prayed for us. Then the whole hell he came out of the uh after the fact reached out to him like, hey, we really need somewhere to pray. He was in his like early 30s at the time that's the whole, you know, like this over guy pray with us, you know. So wise. Yeah. Well, you know, I just need it, yeah. We're like, please pray for us, you know. We're in a really bad place. I told him what happened. They didn't really know what to think or say about it. So, you know, a lot of Christians aren't prepared for those conversations. Yeah, we've been no for seven days. Um, but you know, he did pray for us, and so he he would let us come over and take showers on occasion during those two weeks. And um finally one day I talked, told him, like, hey, listen, Steve, I'm a believer now. I thought I believe in Jesus. Really feel like Jesus told me I need to get off of the streets. Will you take me in? And he's like, Yeah, well. So he took me in. Um, my feet were rotting at the time because I didn't take my shoes off and didn't have garage. They're like purple. I don't know, sometimes I don't know what it was exactly. Uh, but it was a really powerful time. You know, I was really just like being cared for by them, by Steve, by other believers that would come over Steve that prayed for me uh into sometimes the night.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:50

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:51

There's one time they were praying for me in this like we were like in this garage and this like scorpion appeared out of nowhere. It was like out of nowhere. But there's nowhere kicking right. There's no holes or it just popped out of nowhere. Which again, can't explain. Can't explain that Bible is going to give us a lot of detail. But it did happen and they just like crushed it. Oh wow. It was like a picture of like, you know, me being broken free of um Satan. So that's a big deal. Um, you know, I was like, I think, you know, read my Bible a bunch and listen to worship music, and was like, I had a lot of pride though. I was like, yeah, and you know, like completed the puzzle. You know, I believe in the all and all. I would get rid of that, like at that point. Evacillate between like oneness.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:38

No, not a well, kinda.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:39

Basically an entity beyond everything that wasn't everything. Call it the all and all. I don't know where I got it from. Some book probably or some somebody. But I believe in the all in all, and then I was like, this uh in God, basically, but that's the name I gave God at the time. But I remember being like, yeah, okay, now they have Jesus, I got the picture. I got the full picture, you know. I felt like I had arrived at the truth that I've been searching for, you know, this whole time. Oh, I finally made it, finally arrived at the truth. Never thought I'd be a Christian. Remember, I was running from Fishini since I was a teenager. Like that was actually I was trying to find anything but. And I wouldn't publicly make that known to my friends. Like, yeah, I mean, anything but. I mean, when I go out last, anything but Christianity, you know. Those Christians. So like judgmental. Anyway, but I thought they were judgmental, you know, I guess. Um, so yeah, I never thought I would be a believer in Jesus. So I had a lot of pride and was like, yeah, it arrived. And I remember this one older sister of mine, well, kind of like my family's spiritual mother, old spiritual sister, older sister, you know, she was like, Yeah, you know, basically alluded to like, I'm a baby, and one day I'll grow up. And I remember being like offended, you know, I was like, oh, well, I've arrived, you know. But I knew the down. She was right. But I didn't know what that meant. You know, it's like, oh, there's more. What do you mean? But then I started, you know, as I walked with Jesus, I'd learned that was more, you know, that I was kind of in the beginning, not the end. In the end of, in a sense, right? It was at the end of my journey of darkness and my end of the journey of being blind and unforgiving and full of shame and fear, you know, and having nowhere to go. But I was at the beginning of understanding our relationship with Jesus. So yeah, I would say in that sense, it satisfied a lot because I, of course, I looked to sex and I looked to drugs and I look to people and I look to um different spiritual deities to find fulfillment. But then, you know, I found fulfillment in Jesus. And, you know, it was like nothing else. I remember one big thing was that I hadn't laughed from the heart in so long. And then I remember experiencing that again. For the first really for maybe I'd say for the first time, people real laugh. I remember being like, Whoa, this is crazy, you know. And uh at one point, because the eyes, you know, that I had looking at me when I was not with Jesus, I remember saying, Jesus, will you show me your eyes? Or God, you know, and he did one time show me like his eyes. Of course they were way different than the demon eyes. He never did that again, just one time. And I had some visions and dreams when I was first believer, but um, a lot of ethic just encouraged me, you know, because I had so many supernatural experiences.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:46

So I think God allowed me to have some of those with him. Not that I haven't had any sense, I'm gonna say that, but um so yeah, that was kind of you know, the end but the beginnings of that part of his story. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:01

Um Yeah, Catherine has shared that you you're you're somewhat of a like a theologian, like you you've studied over the years and um even been a part of like releasing some books, and and I'm curious, what would you say? And do you have any advice for understanding like there's a difference between understanding Jesus and understanding the gospel and understanding Christianity intellectually, which a lot of people can can get from like reading the Bible, reading Christian books, like you know, learning about it, put putting yourself in community. But then there's a difference from having like that felt sense and that like genuine encounter and really experiencing the Holy Spirit. Could you speak to the difference in those two things? And then for someone who's maybe a new believer or Jesus curious, and maybe they haven't had like you've had a lot of supernatural and spiritual experiences, but you've also got that intellectual peace and the studying. So you probably really know from both ends. Like, would you have advice for someone of like how they can really have an experience of the Holy Spirit and have like an experience with Jesus?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:17

Yeah, no, that's a good question. I think so. Just understand your question. So basically you're asking, how would I make the difference, distinguish the two, and what would I encourage people to do to pursue? Besides just having the understanding, but like Yeah, well it's a funny thing, and I think I think uh let me see how I can be succinct with this. Um our minds matter, right? Our emotions matter, all parts of us matter here in our bodies, right, with God, like all of it, right? I think that um I would say let me think I'll find out that well, I mean, I think okay, let me just say this. I think obviously intellectual um part aspect of our faith is important. Like you do need to know truth, but truth is received through your mind, not just, but it is through your mind also, right? Um, even things that are going on in your body or your emotions, putting words to it therefore means it's through your mind, right? You use your mind to make sense of bringing meaning to your feelings, to your body, right? Um, your body doesn't put words to things, your mind does. So that's important. Um, what I've learned, I would say, is that because I did some pendulums when you I did some extremes, right? I kind of went extreme the other way. Like I was too afraid, I was very afraid of experience. I was afraid of experience. And so I kind of became almost relying on my people left completely. So that's that's not a good place to go. So I'd say that's one pitfall is like don't um it is important to to use your mind to understand God, but um, it has to be more than your mind. And so um I would say that if you ever if you don't have an emotional um like in if when you read scripture or you're worshiping God or you're in fellowship with other believers, if it's not if you don't feel connecting to your heart, to your emotions, but you're only putting it in your mind, then you know there's problems. That's a problem, frame. Um, but I wouldn't say I make the distinction. I would say encounter and experience aren't the same thing. So I would say an experience um is more like any experience can be an experience, right? But an encounter is like a face-to-face. Like you and God, He isn't meeting you face to face, right? Um the difference is that um you can have an encounter with God in all kinds of ways. You can have that have an encounter with God, you know, in the still quiet of your living room, reading your Bible, and just like gently, quietly, the Holy Spirit speaks to you. You can have a big, dramatic encounter with God. You know, there can be all kinds of variations of encounter. Sometimes it's it's not even um perceptible until after the fact you look back and you're like, whoa, God was really in that with me. But I would say, you know, to get there, I would say, you know, really I think the the best word I would use is um a healthy desperation. So it's kind of recognizing that well, not kind of, like Jesus says like to the woman at the well, you're looking for for water. I have limited water, right? He has something far better than even our our body tells us is what we need. You know, you they were looking at Jesus for food, right? John 6. That's why they're following it. He's a walking food pantry. He's like, I have better food to give. I'm the bread of life. The manna he gave your fathers didn't last forever, didn't give you life, but I uh I am the bread of life. So it's really like that recognition. And every believer is on their journey, and no believers arrived to where they recognize I need Jesus more than anything else. So I would say like that place of desperation where it's like, okay, you know, one way I like to put it to people is if you lost everything, you were stripped naked, you had no home, you had no water or clothing for food or shelter, or even friends. But you have God, would you still have everything? So the answer is yes, you would. You would have everything because you have God. Because you have God, you were made for God. Does it mean you should have those other things? Of course not, right? But it's like it's that recognition, like if I lost everything, I would still have everything because I have God, God, you know, it's like having God is far better than anything else. It's uh in uh Romans 8, that's what Paul says. It's like, you know, if sormen or famine or sormen, sword, famine, persecution, it doesn't matter, whatever, even principalities or people persecuting us. If any everything falls apart, nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ, right? Who can bring a charge against us? Nobody, because we have been justified in Christ, right? So it's really like knowing who you are, knowing your identity, knowing that you're a daughter or son of God, knowing that you've you've been forgiven, not just your past sins, but every sin. All sins have been laid at the foot of the cross, have been nailed to the cross, right? Like Colossians says, like the debt of sin is no longer held against us, right? Like we um are not burdened by our debt of sins. So we're set free to really like look ourselves in the mirror with God, God with us together. And so I see I would say, yeah, that's really the thing that most facilitates. It's like not just in your mind, but really like pleading with God, like make the truth that you sing your word real in my heart. It reminds me of this passage, you know, what Jesus says, right? So keep knocking, right? I'm paraphrasing it. Knock, knock, knock, keep knocking at the door, keep asking. So it's like if you don't feel Jesus and you don't have an encounter with him where he really shows you that you're a love child with God, and of course that looks different ways for everybody. And if he doesn't give you that piece of surprise will understand, he doesn't fill you with his joy, you're not feeling those things, just keep knocking, you know. And um, I would say, you know, the journey of walking with Jesus isn't in some days any easier than not being a believer, in one sense, in the sense that there's still suffering, there's still days that are difficult, there's still days you get depressed or anxious, there's still days when, you know, you there's relational discord or you know, there's pain. Pain doesn't go away. But the the big, I'd say the big divide between not knowing Jesus and knowing Jesus is you're never alone. And I mean in that in the full in the fullest sense of like, okay, like um, you know, who knows for us completely? Jesus, you know, who knows me completely, knows completely more than you know yourself, right? Like no one's gonna know, even your own husband know you as well as Jesus. He sees you, he sees me fully, and he loves me fully without hindrance in knowing me in. So I think I would say that's what that's the key, if you will. If if you just really like embrace that, I think that what gets in the way is our own doubt.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:34

You know, be like, uh, either it's too good to be true or my circumstance don't seem to indicate that you love me that way, uh, or whatever. And but no, I'm a big proponent. You know, I'm a really big believer in the church. So I do think that, you know, we need we need our own time of reading the Bible and worship, but we also need other believers. You know, so I think a lot of times what I've seen is that people go off course with Christ is usually when they are alone. They don't have people in their life.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:14

Um, or the people, you know, it's very um curated and protected and guarded. Um, I think when we do when we try to hold on to control and we try to um maintain some semblance of we're the center, the lord of our lives. I think that's what gets in the way a lot of times. So there's a lot more I can say about all that. But yeah, it's been it's been a really it's been a crazy journey with the Lord. I mean, who I was when I was 21, that's when I was saved, and who I'm now, they're not even close to those things. But it's not because of me. I mean, it really isn't. There's many ways that if if it wasn't for the spirit of doubt, I might probably wouldn't be a believer. Um, I definitely had some really dark times with Jesus, even after all the things I've shared, uh, where I didn't trust him and I did doubt him. Um, but it's like, man, he he is so faithful and he'll show up and um he really will, if he if you let him, because he's not Reiki, you know, he's not gonna make us know the truth. But if you're willing and you open your heart, like he will. You will have an encounter. Every believer can have as much in this in the enemy's seal of Jesus as the next. You know, there's no cap, there's no like, oh, you're more special and you're gonna get more Jesus than the other.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:44

Every one of us, like Hebrews said, we have all full access to go to the throne of grace. So I think a lot of times our stories tell us a different story. You know, oh, I'm not good enough. Or they're not good enough, right? So yeah, I don't know that.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:03

That that's a powerful, yeah, that's a powerful statement that like everyone has the the same ability to have those those encounters and that intimacy. And, you know, you shared in the earlier chapters of your life having these different father figures that were unhealthy and even violent. And then now having Father God and you know, walking with Jesus. Was it difficult? Was there like a resistance or a difficultness uh initially maybe to take that on or to like look towards God as your real and true father? That's kind of one part of the question. And then the other is you know, becoming a believer in your early 20s. You you've lived a whole life since then of husband, father, friend. I know you do a lot of work in ministry. Not having that, maybe the healthiest examples growing up of those masculine roles. Like, how has God, how has Jesus shown you the way, like the optimal way to be in those roles?

SPEAKER_02 1:23:12

Yeah, I mean, that's I mean, I would say to your first part of your question, is like really that was the biggest thing I wrestled with. Like I could believe that I had the Holy Spirit, I could believe that I was forgiven of my sins. Um, but to believe I was his son took a long time. That was a huge crux of and again in my mind, I did believe it. So that's what we're talking about, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:23:41

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:42

It's not I don't think I'd realize how desperate I was to really know. So they've sent me down some dark paths um for a while. But then finally, you know, God has his ways, even with our dark paths to bring us back, you know. And so yeah, that's really I think embracing, yeah, my identity as a son, you know, it was like and that's how I think of all of us, you know. He wants us all to know, I think what it's all about. So to bring bring us into that father, um, that love relationship, you know, with him. Um but yeah, that was that's a big part of my story, is like he's the one that's taught me how to be a dad and a husband and so many things. I mean, really. So yeah, it's kind of incredible. You're like, wow, God can teach you all that. But he can. You know, and a lot of it is just like um I think just that willingness and I I would say it's so given my little spirit. I don't think it's like I'm some kind of moral superhero or something. But uh yeah, I think it is like just a the just that hunger for him and his wisdom, you know, like James one says, I think if you ask for wisdom, he'll give it. Which is not asked with a divided heart, you know. It's like my life before someone was telling me this recently is like you have a superpower, you know, you've been in such levels of darkness, depravity, and despair, um that you have such a awareness of what life is like without Jesus. And I'm like, yeah, that's true. And so there is a sense of which, like, and I think God has that for everybody. That anybody can have what I have. They don't have to go through all that, but I think everyone realized, man, Jesus is so much better. You know, so I think just learning that. I'm like, he's so patient with me and so gentle and uh, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 1:25:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:57

He exhibits, he displays the very things that I need to display to my own kids, you know. He's been so patient with me. There's been so many times I was angry with him, doubting him, even like borderline cursing, you know, to and he just continues to show up. Sometimes he has to be firm with me. But that's not ever in harshness, it's because he loves me. And when those moments do happen, it's like, oh I know you love me.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:28

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:29

You know, and that that was kind of like the yeah, so he just has a way of I think rewiring our brains like in ways that you know he can't explain fully. Um yeah, it's it's incredible. It really is like, I don't I can't there's I guess what I would say to that is like there's so much hope. You know what I mean? Like God really can. Does that matter how bad your upbringing was, you know, he really can make you the the parent and the spouse and the friend and whatever you mean he wants you to be. Yeah, you're not tied, you're not tethered to your past, in a sense that it has to forever shape you.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:16

Or maybe not shape, well always be shaped by our past, but where it has to limit you, you know. Like you really can. You know, like Jesus says, I've overcome the world. You know, you can be over you can overcome who you want's word. And we all come from that, the nexus, the web of of our complicated history. Everybody has complicated histories. Even people that grew up in the church and you know were saved at a young age, they still have. We're complicated. People are complicated. And that's okay. God's okay with that, he's okay with the process. And I think that's a big thing. Like my parents, I don't think they knew how to deal with my process.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:56

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:57

Ultimately. Because they didn't know how to deal with my process. So it's no, you know, shame in that, but it's just people don't know how to do that. But it's like, man, God, He's been so good to be in my process and just keeps showing up. And I remember one time I was just feel just really despairing. Not quite of like, I don't know if I'm saved, but like, do I know you? You know, I remember the Holy Spirit, like almost, you know, like almost like felt this like flame inside of me of like, oh, I'm still here. And I was like, but yeah. So anyway.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:36

Tom, you've you've experienced a lot, like just physically in your life, but also, you know, in the spirit realm and also, you know, your deep studies of a lot of different religions. And then, of course, in the last 20 years or more, um, going really deep into Christianity and the gospel. And for people that might be listening, who the piece that they grapple with is that Jesus is the way, the truth, the life, and not just one of many different paths that lead to God. I think that's a really common belief, especially for people in new age spirituality. What would you say to them? How after everything that you've experienced and learned and known, how do you know that Jesus is the truth, like capital T truth, and not just one of all of these different buffet of offerings?

SPEAKER_02 1:29:33

Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm trying to say I'd like to answer that in a not churchyoing. Because I think, you know. But I, you know, I would say from my own experience, uh, like I was saying, like I did believe in Buddha as well. Buddha, Krishna, Vishnu. They never really showed up. You know. And I and I did have a relationship with some of those entities, you know. Meaning like I could call upon their name and they would come. You know. And people, some people in the new age know that that does happen, you know. Um but yeah, in those darkest times, like they did not come. Or they just were spectators. Right. I remember in that time when the the bodies were piled. I did think of Buddha, I did actually think of Buddha, but I was like, there's no uh he's gonna go apologize. Yeah. So I would say um there's just, you know, if you really think about it, there's no greater story. There's not, I mean, Buddha didn't die for our sins. You know, he he was maybe had some wisdom before such some things to like teach wisdom as he understood it. But I don't think we fully understand, like, no, Jesus didn't just teach some things. Yeah, like he underwent and willingly submitted to a level of suffering.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:10

That you know, like and he didn't do it because he had to, or someone made him, or because he was guilty. He willingly went to the cross because he loved us. And there's just no other Muhammad or Krishna or fill in the blank any like historic religious epic, they none of them ever have or will do that. And you know, there's just such a um like Jesus the gospel really does say like doesn't matter what you've done, doesn't matter who you've been, you can have life with me. And you know, it's a scandal, it's scandalous. No, like it's not gonna be, oh, if you are Jeffrey Dahmer and you killed and eight people, one one if you were to complete your you know, your karmic cycle, one day maybe you'll be an ascendant being you know, millions and millions of years down the road. It's gonna take a while because you're gonna be anatomy piece of poop the first time after you did what you did, Jeffrey, right? But you know what the gospel does, right? You know Jeffrey Dahmer was saved. You knew this? Jeffrey Dahmer, right? We know the name, some of us, right? He was one of the most grotesque, evil people you can imagine. He became a believer in prison, right? And it's like only the gospel offers extended salvation. Like you could be a hideous monster. And if you come to Jesus say, I need you, it'll forgive you, you know? There's just nothing like that. And so I would say that's one thing I would say. The other thing I think is a lot of times people just don't understand how dark darkness really is.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:03

And how evil sin really is.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:06

Um, you know, I know like a lot of times people hear sin is a moral moral thing. Oh, it's like, don't do this, do that. But here's how I'd like to describe it, if I if you may, if I can.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:18

So what I would say is more like think about the sun. What does the sun give to? It gives you life, right? Can we live without the sun? The answer is no, right? If the sun stopped, maybe we would be alive for like a week. Then we'd start dying. You know what I mean? We're dependent on the sun. So thinking of God as the sun, right? We're he is the source of all life. Everything good. Every good thing we every time we have a moment of laughter, we have a moment of companionship, we have a moment of enjoying a good piece of or good beverage or food or sex or fill in the blank, right? Raising children. That's all like God's good gift. So what sin is, is like turning our back on the source of every good thing and embracing darkness. It's like embracing a world without a sun. And saying, I would rather that sun be put out and live a world without the sun. That's really the heart of sin. Or even worse, which a lot of people don't like to hear. It's true. Really, sin is not just I want to extinguish the sun, but it's actually how I want to be the sun.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:36

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:37

And so, like, I think that's what maybe that is some of my power in my story, is like, I don't have an idealistic being of humanity because I've seen.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:47

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:48

And there's way more things I never got into today that I don't, you know, I mean, I'll get into it if you want to, or somebody wants to. But there's so much darkness, you know? And if you really have like live a life where you've seen darkness, like it's a very despairing thing to think that not like God will never address that darkness. God's never gonna hold people accountable.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:12

Because let's be honest, there are people that commit extreme evils. Yes. And they will not be held accountable on this earth. They will not be held accountable by a state, you know? They're not gonna be held accountable by the police. There's many people that have built massive riches for themselves, and they die in peace and luxury. That's true. True facts, you know. So then it raises the question, well, who's gonna who's gonna be accountable? Who's gonna hold them accountable, you know? And they get answer is God. So they, you know, I would say you can't have a God of love if you don't want a God of justice. Because justice and love are in a defined. Like if I love you, I'm gonna hate if you do something that kills you.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:03

Like if if I say, hey, force, I love you, you're my sister, and like I come to your house and you're like, shooting out drugs.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:11

Loving you wouldn't be like, oh, that's cool. Yeah, let's go. You know, no. Loving you would be like, we're gonna flush that stuff right now. Yeah. I am so mad for you that you're doing this to yourself. I care so much about you. I mean, I might get a little angry.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:29

Right? So I love you.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:31

So God's wrath, you know, people find it unpalatable. Well, really, is because he loves us so much. Like, you're killing yourself. I love you. You're made for more than this.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:41

I have better for you. Why would I mean why would we be bad?

SPEAKER_03 1:36:47

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:47

Right? So I think that's a lot of the confusion. You know, people and people don't love that way.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:52

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:53

You know, or they do, they're not really loving.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:56

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:57

So it's like, man, if you ever seen me do something you know is killing me, please.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:03

Please call me out.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:04

Yeah. Because that's what you still do. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:07

I remember one time I got drunk and this friend of mine, old friend of mine, he put down me in his car and said, Hey, we need to talk. And he yelled at me. And I'm not saying we should always do that. But I know he loved you.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:19

And I was like, Well, you're right. Thank you. It's like that's really the way to understand Gazra.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:26

But to your point, your question, it's like, think about it. This is the way I ended by it's like, okay, God is like, he loves you enough, but he doesn't love what kills you.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:38

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:38

But you keep turning your back on the sun, the source of life, and you keep wanting to be the sun yourself, you keep wanting to snuff out the real sun, and you persist in that. I mean, he's not gonna make you love him.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:57

That's not love.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:58

And also, like, he gives us free will because otherwise what we're just in this simulation where he's just controlling everything. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:06

Like he's not gonna force you.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:08

Like he's trying to persuade you and woo you to him. But he you know, he wants you to want him. So people are wrestling with more ways to God than one. Yeah, Jesus is the greatest story. Um, no other God forgives and gives life like he does, um, without condition, just coming to him, trusting him, you know. Um and God wouldn't be God if if he was okay with evil. You know, those are two things I would say, just summarizing. You can't um you can't have a God of love if you don't have a God of justice. Um the other thing I would say, um, just from observation experience, I think a lot of times people aren't comfortable with it because I don't know, you know, I've been there too, but it's I think a lot of times if you embrace the idea that God is judge and that he is angry for us and at our evil behaviors, then it does kind of like if you're if you're not secure in your identity with Christ and you don't know you're loved by God and you're a child of God and forgiven, it can kind of provoke that question. Well, am I good enough? Maybe I'm not even good enough. You know, so I think it touches on this insecurity of oh, well, if I embrace that truth, then that might mean I have to look myself in the mirror and I'm not gonna like what I see. Because we're we're masters at justifying ourselves and trying to like paper over the the dark things in our heart. So I think like, but that's the freedom, you know, like the Jesus says, hey, like if you whoever the sun says free is free indeed. We're not free by like creating a delusion of ourselves or like some caricature, some ideal of ourselves that's not really rooted in reality. Like, no, we're free by like really being able to see ourselves for who we are and see ourselves in life of Christ. You know, it's like that confession, opi poken upon usually I am broken. And his word back to us. I forgive, you know, like you're cleansed. Like, I give you my love, I give you my spirit.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:40

Despite it.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:41

Yeah, brokenness. So I think that's a lot of it. It's more, it's not so much an intellectual thing. I think it's emotional. There's a really good book on uh it's good, it's called Unbelief. It's a history of unbelief, but it goes through like how most throughout history people's reservations about Jesus or Christiane are intellectual or emotional. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:05

Very cool. And yeah, you're right. It is, it's a beautiful story. His character is so pure and sweet. And yeah, thank you for I like to be able to, I know you have the the the background and this see being a seasoned Christian and also like diving so much into it. I love to be able, I don't normally ask like theological questions to people on the podcast, but I knew I could with you. So thank you. Yeah, just as we wrap up, is there anything that you would want to leave our our listeners with? Like maybe someone who's felt connected to parts of your story, maybe they walked through similar things. Um, or yeah, just someone who who felt really inspired today and they're they're kind of on the edge, they're on the fence, contemplating if this is the shift that they want to make in their life. Is there any words that you'd like to leave them with?

SPEAKER_04 1:42:00

Hmm.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:03

Yeah. So I mean, I'm just like hypothetically, as if they're here. I would say by have somebody stay in it, sit right here and be like, Tom, I just heard your story. And you know, that a lot of that resonates with me. I don't know quite ready. You know, I would say, well, Jesus is patient and he's not gonna make you rush if you need to take more time. But as soon as you're ready, he's there. As soon as you're ready to come, he'll be there. And just call out to him. You know, he he is the greatest lover of your soul. And once you know that love, there's no going back. So that's probably what I would say is that don't don't question like God's love for me and what he pulled me out of, I would have not been alive. I would not have made it.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:06

I mean, my own mental health conditions and the dangerous world I was in, I would not have made it. Um but the love of God is why I'm here today. The reason I'm a father and a husband and whatever else I am, whatever other adjectives you want to put to me, is because of Jesus. Like Jesus has so much more for us than we could ever imagine happening for ourselves, you know. So that would be the appeal I would make to anyone listening. It's like your vision for yourself is very small compared to God's vision for you. God has so much more for us. And um just like just be almost be like, hey, you know, somebody has been to the other side. You may think it's too good to be true, but it's true. Well, you just have to start the journey and just call out to him and he'll be ready to read to ready to meet you. So I don't know if that helps.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:08

Yeah, that's beautiful. And Tom, um, is there anything like I know that you do ministry work and is there any way in which if people have questions and they want to be in communication with you, like how could they contact you? Or is there anything that you and Catherine have going on that you'd like to share?

SPEAKER_02 1:44:25

So I mean, if anyone wanted to call or email, I mean I'd be happy to to respond. Or if they're in my area, I'm gonna do the whole church. But you know, try to serve folks through that. You know, just our belief that the you know, church is the family of God and try to model that. So provide space for that. Um, so yeah, I'm gonna either all three of those.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:51

Amazing. And so if you want to get in touch, you can just comment wherever you're listening or um watching this testimony, and and I can put you in touch with Tom. Tom, would you like to close us out in prayer today? Sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:08

Jesus. Lord, I just thank you that um telling my story again just reminds me of your amazing, amazing, amazing grace. There's no reason that I should even be here today. Never mind um who you made me to be. And Lord, I I just thank you, God, that I'm not an exception, that I'm not special. I thank you, Jesus, that you can you can raise up and empower and strengthen and heal and deliver any one of us. All we have to do is come to you, Lord. And I just I'm so thankful, just in awe of your salvation. Thank you, Lord, that um I do believe my my testimony gives you glory. And so I do pray, Lord, that your your name, um, who you are, your character, your love would be um just known in this world through me, through every testimony shared here, through all of your believers that are really living for you. Thank you, Jesus. Amen.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:30

Amen. Amen. Thank you, Tom, so much for being willing to share. This is great.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:35

Yeah, it was cute.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:36

Thank you for being here and listening to Tom's story. If something in this conversation stirred something in you, don't just scroll past it. Take a moment, sit with it. God is often quieter than we expect, but he's not distant. And if you know someone who is searching, someone who's been exploring different spiritual paths, or maybe walking through something dark, share this episode with them. You never know what God might use to reach someone. If you want to stay connected and hear more stories like this, you can follow the podcast or join the email list. Those links are below. And if you're in a season of rebuilding your life, your relationships, your foundation, you can learn more about my work at forestsoley.com. Either way, I'm really glad you're here, and I will see you in the next one.