The Character Podcast - Episode 5: Clark Carlise

On this episode of the Character Podcast, former professional footballer and mental health advocate Clark Carlisle shares a deeply honest conversation about identity, pressure, masculinity, and mental health. Reflecting on a career spanning more than 550 professional appearances, Clark opens up about the emotional cost of living for external validation and the personal journey that followed after football.

From childhood experiences and family influences to therapy, fatherhood, and modern day challenges facing men and young people, this episode explores what character truly means beyond success and achievement. With warmth, vulnerability, and insight, Clark discusses resilience, emotional literacy, unconditional love, and the importance of creating environments where people feel safe to be heard.

A powerful conversation about self awareness, healing, and learning to live authentically.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Clark, welcome to the show. Thank you very much. I'm incredibly well today, Dan. Thank you. Great stuff. So for those that obviously a lot of people probably know your story anyway, Clark, in terms of being a footballer. But just to rewind back a month ago and how you've ended up here is one of our staff, Jimmy, who we've just seen a minute ago, seen you speaking at a conference. And I think the content of what you were explaining resonated, not just resonated, it kind of cut through a lot of noise and conversation that a lot of people tend to avoid. So Jimmy comes straight back. It's like Dan, just seeing Clark. The speech was amazing. It was at head teachers' conference, he's doing stuff in the sector. We need to get him on. So that's where we are now.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

So welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Well, that's a glowing recommendation because you know, especially with Jimmy being a Blackburn fan and me playing for Burnley, you know I must have struck a chord there somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Exactly. So Clark, loads of the viewers, loads of listeners will have followed your story, football fans, but obviously a lot won't know what you've done of late. But just to kind of summarise who Clark Carlyle is, can you give us a quick summary? I can.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

My name is Clark Carlyle, and I am a husband, a father, a son, a brother, and a friend. And that is the I suppose the lens through which I view who I am today, Dan.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

So that's who you view you as. I suppose the public will see you as 550 plus appearances as a professional footballer? Yes. At one of the highest levels. Playing for some of the greatest teams. Not Liverpool, no, but playing for some fascinatingly good teams. And obviously the premise of this pod is around character and what you were speaking about at the head teachers' conference conference recently, it kind of encapsulates encapsulates what character means, but what does character mean to you?

SPEAKER_00 1:59

It's a brilliant question. You know, because there was a time, especially as a young lad, where character to me would have meant winning. Character to me would have meant being perfect. It would have meant um being the best at something and striving to be the best. But I sit here now, 46 years of age, and character to my mind now is being consistently and authentically me.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

Was there certain parts of your life where you assumed you were there already? Were there times in your life when you thought you were you were happy and you were you've achieved what you wanted to, and deep down maybe you weren't?

SPEAKER_00 2:51

No, no, I don't think there was. Um my understanding of me being there and valuing where I am has only come in recent years. It's only come after me dealing with serious adverse mental health, intense therapy, a self-awareness journey, understanding who I am and what my values and beliefs are, and then going and and living them. And the reason why I say throughout 17 years of professional football, playing, like you said, you know, in the Premier League, across all four leagues, representing my country, um, going and being a commentator for ITV and uh commentating at the World Cup in Brazil, writing books, being chairman of the PFA, winning countdown and the 1% club. I never ever valued myself. My whole life, right up until 36 years of age, uh my my sense of worth and my self-esteem was wholly dependent on what you thought of me. It was wholly dependent on what that person thought about what I'd just done, you know. So it was never in a safe and solid foundation, it was whimsical, right? You know, and when you're in the industry of football, you you have to understand that on any given match day, whatever you do is to the joy of half of the stand and the hatred and envy of the other half of the stand. So you can never be wholly satisfied if you live a life of external validation. That being said, in football, it it actually served me to be dependent on external validation because it didn't matter what I thought of my performance. What mattered was what the fans thought, was what the coach thought, was what the manager thought, was what the press journalist thought, was what the chairman thought, or chairwoman, you know, because it was those people's opinions that defined the course of my life, whether I was picked the next day, whether songs, positive songs were sung about me or negative ones. Whether there were 20,000 people at the game, but if that journalist puts three out of ten in the paper, there's 70 million people who think I was shy yesterday. Yeah, they weren't even there, you know. The chair, if they don't rate me, then I'm not getting another contract, which means I'm not paying my bills or feeding my family. So it didn't matter what I thought. Yeah, I had to make sure that I belonged and I performed to everyone else's expectations and values. So for me to be someone who anchors myself in in certain in external validation, it worked because I would make sure that I bent and twisted and contorted myself to be everything that you needed, Dan. Sure. And so you would have a good opinion of me, so then my life and work work prospects were were better. What was the cost of that? Oh wow. Oh, that is another podcast. Uh the cost of that meant that at 36 years of age, uh, after my after four suicide attempts and me being actively suicidal for the last time in my life in 2017, I was sat in a psychiatric hospital bed in Blabben and I didn't know who I was. You know, and the I had a a self-perception that without football, without that constant validation, without the opportunity to Tuesday, Saturday, Tuesday, Saturday, Tuesday, Saturday, prove my worth to everyone else, that I I was an abject failure, I was a waste of space. Um I I had no identity. And the the difficulty of that situation there was that I had an inherent fear that because I didn't know who I was, and because everyone else's opinion was so important to me, if I engaged with therapy or if I went and found out who I am, what if Clark is a dick? What if no one likes it? That was scarier than me not being here. It must have been paralyzing It's so hard to articulate you know, people talk about a rock in a hard place. Um my wife Carrie, she's she's such a profound wise woman. She's the most incredible human being. She is a huge factor for me being so well today. And her insight, you know, she's she said and relayed to me afterwards, she said, Claude, you know, coming from football and coming from that background where we had psychology, but it was optimum performance state. Okay, you know, it's like failure's not an option, you do not feel fear. We we will win, blah blah blah blah blah. You you overcome this, that, and the other, and da da da da. She said, You have you are not bothered about physical pain, you know, you've got no concerns about that whatsoever, but you are absolutely terrified of emotional pain. That's why that situation there was so difficult. If if at that point in psych hospital someone had said, Clark, you need to run three marathons, you need to go over hot coals, line a bed of nails, and you'll be well, I'd have been like, bang, let's get it done in a week. But the the notion that I would have to confront all of these emotions in me, uh you know, I would have to confront shame and embarrassment and guilt. Uh, and because I'd led a life as a professional footballer, it will continue to be played out in a public forum. And the impact that that's gonna have, not just on people's perception, but on my family and all of that notion of being enough and being acceptable. The fact that for me to engage with therapy and to try and get well meant that I was gonna have to look in that pond, it was debilitating.

SPEAKER_01 10:05

And you mentioned before about public perception, you read the paper on a Sunday morning, and millions of people have got this view of you. Well, those millions of people will have a relatively consistent view of being a strong male athletic footballer that probably has no fragilities at all. So, to for the non-public eye person, that's a huge step to take to open up about how you think and feel. Certainly that if it's to a strange, we're going through therapy, but as someone who is in the public eye, that must have been extremely tough.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

It was extremely tough, and it continues to be because once you start to put things out in the public domain, you have no control over the narrative that that that is you know it is placed in or is placed on it. Um and again at that point where what people thought was of huge importance to me, you know, that lack of control, it was horrible. Yeah, it was truly horrible, you know. And and I think this it is one of the reasons why men are very reticent to open up about challenges that they're facing. I I was on Radio 5 just on the way here, and Radio 5 it's it's the launch of men's health strategy. They wanted to talk about you know what we can do to support men and their health, and their phoning question was uh some person was quoted as saying it's very difficult to be a man today. Do you agree, yes or no? That was their phoning question. And I and I said to the presenter, I said, that's a naughty question. What do you mean? I said I said, Well, it it that that very question it it predicates on on someone holding an absolute position that no, it's easy to be a man, or yes, it's difficult to be a man. Yeah, and once you start to get into that type of conversation, any person has to justify the fact that they're allowed to have a challenge before you even get into what the challenge is. You know, so if if you start that conversation and say, rather than saying it's difficult to be a man, yes or no, say what are the challenges for a modern day man? Now that's a very different question from a very different premise. And that allows for exploration and and insight, doesn't it? As a man today, if you're still anchored in in uh, I'm not gonna say archaic, but a more traditional of my generation and older narrative of what it is to be a man, it's gonna be difficult. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think actually, Dan, my and I think I've probably got a couple of years on you, but our generation, we are the we're we're in the most difficult position because we've been generationally and societally conditioned one way, yet our understanding of society has evolved, and we are raising a generation that thinks another way. Sure thing. And they have different expectations, a different approach, yet we're the ones trying to teach and guide them. And our auto-responses, unless we're deliberate about them, they're anchored in generational conditioning. Sure. You know, oh freeze up, man, deal with it, get through it, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, and then and then we have to second guess that, and we're like, no, actually, no, that's not how we do it nowadays. So we're unlearning decades of subconscious conditioning to then try and guide a new generation, sure. And we don't even know what that looks like for them.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

Yeah, yeah. The challenge for us is well, what what is that? Like, how do we progress forward? What is the modern day male and or modern-day female? Because I'd imagine that there's challenges to both sides, they must be trying to have that head and heart uh challenges challenge from a female perspective of I should be at home with my children all the time because society tells me to do it, but I want to be career-driven, I want to succeed, I've got opportunity to do it now. We fought for this for years, but I can't do it because of maybe a draught of a primitive instinct.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

But I think I went off on a tangent there, uh, but um I totally agree because it it's one of the important things for us to do is that knowledge what the challenges are. Yeah, and uh in times past, like you said, roles and pathways they were defined, they were predestined. Yeah, yeah. You know, you your father was a baker, you're a baker, you know, all of these things. You're you're of the upper class, middle class, lower class, you're going into these streams of work. So now, in this fantastic opening up of the world, a release of, to some extent, of boundaries, you know, and restrictions on what people can and can't achieve, can and can't be. What that the the unintended consequence of that means that for every human, anything is possible. The clarity of focus on what I'm gonna do with my life, what I'm gonna work towards, what my direction is, it's amorphous. So we find a lot of people who it it's there's an overwhelm because I could be anything, but I'm currently what, nothing. And then you put that in the technological era of it's not just a life of sharing what I'm doing, it's it's a life of showcasing me and my moments as a standard against your life. Sure thing. So when you don't know what you're doing, you're not sure where you're going, I can be anything, and I'm seeing all these people uh kind of evidence the epitome of success, yeah, of boss woman, of modern man, of all of this scenario. Yeah, yeah. And we get all of these external standards that we're supposed to expect to live up to to be the modern human. Not only that, on the flip side of it, if you're experiencing a difficulty or a challenge, then again, that's set on a comparative scale. So going back to the Radio 5 question, you have to justify the fact that you're allowed to have a challenge, and then once you do that, you've almost got to state the case for your challenge being worthy of attention. Sure. And that minimizes or trivialises what you're going through. How often do you see it? You you know, in the forces, in life, in sport, I, as a man, I'll share with a friend. Oh, I've got this going on. Oh, don't worry about that, Cloud. We'll go with you. At least you're not as bad as John. John's got this going on.

SPEAKER_02 17:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:02

Oh, don't worry about that. Trauma sharing and don't worry about that, Cloud. We'll we'll go for a couple of pints. But the the thing about that action is that it's not addressed what I've brought to the table. You know, it is set against someone else's pain or experience, or it's distracting me from what's going on in my life. Where can we where are we in this world? Where can we go where I don't need to justify my challenge, I don't need to compare it to someone else's. I can just sit here with you, Dan, and just share, mate, this is going on right now. Yeah. And you're like, do you know Clock? I hear you.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Yeah, yeah. You've got this world of social media where you get the perception, I should be like that, I should look like that, I should sound like that, and that's what I should do because that's the epitome. But you scratch the surface there, and there are issues, and to a certain degree, it put it kind of correlates quite nicely to the professional athlete who on TV you take the assumption of, and the military, and whoever else that may be, but the professional athlete because you was one, um, you would you take assumptions that this person is extremely, you know, mentally robust, which in many ways, yes, physically robust, has got no issues in the world, does A, B, and C, and life is sunshine and rainbows. But I think what's really important is that people like yourself address that.

SPEAKER_00 18:21

Well, it isn't totally agree that I think one of the most important messages to get across is no matter what a person's life looks like, it is a human being in that moment, and whether it's a picture or a video or whatever it is, let's say they are experiencing success in that moment. You know, I I was with Burnley, we we we played the championship playoff final at Wembley, 90,000 people in the stadium. Um, I was man of the match, we get promoted to the Premier League. This is absolute raw adulation. And at that same time, in that moment, I had experienced four bouts of depression in that year. You know, but professionally and in my work life, I could still give, I could still achieve, I could still compete. And when I came away from my job, I was still experiencing thoughts, emotions, challenges that it actually, when push comes to shove, the athlete mindset meant that I was dealing with them dysfunctionally, you know. But and again, this is a very difficult thing to get across to to a young person nowadays. Is to be an elite athlete, you have to have a very narrow-minded approach, very myopic. Yeah, this is my vision, and I'm willing to sacrifice A, B, and C, I'm willing to run through brick walls, I'm willing to, in the moment when I'm on the game, I'm winning blah blah blah, all this at all costs. If I take that approach and apply it to my wider life, that becomes destructive. Sure. You know, we need to understand that that's my professional vocation approach, and only towards this one goal. There are hundreds of other goals, yeah. There are other avenues, should this not work, but that's my approach that will work and is necessary there. But then when I step away from that and I'm talking to my mate Dan, if I use that same framework, it's gonna be a terrible relationship.

SPEAKER_02 20:40

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

If I go into relationships, you know, with my partners and I think that perfection's the way, and you know, as soon as that relationship's muddied, well, no, I'm done. I'm out of there, and that was the course of my life, yeah, and it's destructive, it's not human, it's not real. It doesn't allow for um you know, for for negativity or mistakes and learning and and growth and evolution in that organic way.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

Well, was that was that something that was taught or drilled into you, or were you from a from a child, were you always extremely ambitious to achieve whatever you want to achieve within football?

SPEAKER_00 21:19

Right.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

And put things put other things to one segment.

SPEAKER_00 21:22

So in football, yes, it was drilled into me. Right. I came through in an era very unlike today, um, where if I had the audacity to even consider doing something other than football, in you know, spending my time thinking or do or or engaging in anything other than football, I was distracted, you're not focused, you're not gonna, you know, you're not gonna make it. So, uh and then it was only in the middle of my career where we had people like David Beckham, you know, who started to pop up in other arenas, and and then it was seen as a Business thing, it's like okay, he's making a profile, and then we come to more recent years where I see people like Raheem Sterling and Marcus Rashford actually use their their profiles for social good, you know, and and it's accepted now. In fact, it's almost become an expectation, but that's another conversation. So when yeah, when I started, it was like football, football, football, nothing else. They didn't even want me to do A-levels when I was an apprentice because it's a distraction, you know. So yeah, that was drilled into me. But then before that, you know, football was my dream because uh I grew up in in you know, you call it a socially and economically deprived house. Mum and dad were skint, yeah. You know, we lived on a council estate in Preston and I had a black father and a white mother, and this was the 70s, 80s when that was hard for them. You know, my dad had to fight people physically to walk down the street with my mum. You know, it's almost well, I say it's beyond comprehension. We're almost coming full circle now. These are difficult times. You know, my mum and dad did the best that they could for me with what they've got, uh with what they had. And they taught me that you don't need money for a loving household, you don't need money for a clean household, you don't need money to have basic manners and respect, you don't need money to have an aspirational, you know, mindset and want to achieve, you know, real fundamentals that I'm so grateful to them for. And at the same time, my dad, you know, he he was an awesome footballer. He played Saturday, Sunday leagues in Preston, he had England trials, he was on the books at North End. Uh, injury and racism curtailed his his opportunity. And I used to watch him as a kid, and then he used to watch me with my granddad. My dad, uh, because he he did view himself as hunter-gatherer, disciplinarian, authoritarian, he couldn't hold down a job because he was a six-foot-five black guy in the 70s and 80s, you know, he was hard-working earnest, but no one had given him a job. He he ended up working for the church in return for food parcels, you know, to feed his family. And um, because he would never sign on the dome. And this hurt him, you know, and 70s coping strategies, they're not what they were today. So my dad used to lock himself in his room, he'd smoke weed, and I wouldn't see him for big crunches. And um, and I would see him when I was very good and he'd come out and say well done, or when I was very bad and he'd come out and give me a clip. Yeah, it was acceptable in the 80s, you know. So I strove to be good because I wanted that positive affirmation, right? And football was a way of me and my dad connecting and me getting that positive affirmation from my dad. And it's so important, you know, yeah, you know, as as a man to to have that relationship and that input. And you know, I'm a huge advocate for uh paternal input into family situations, and and so that that that was half of my drive to to be a professional footballer. I wanted to realise my dad's unfulfilled dreams, right? But I also needed that affirmation, that quality time from him. The other half, right, was like my mum, she was the love and and the care, and you know, my safe place in the household. Um, yet I wet the bed until I was 16, then. And and I mean like on a daily basis, up until I was about 14, and then it kind of petered out until I was about 16, 17. And the thing about that was that mum was my safe place and my consistent love. Yet every morning when I woke up, I'd annoyed my mum because I'd wet the bed. Sure. So she's like, oh, you know, you can imagine, you know, she's she's tried everything with going to the doctors, getting alarms and uh plastic bedding and sheeting and nappies on a 15-year-old kid. And you know, she's at the end of her tether every single day. You gotta you gotta put that in context. We've got no money, yeah. Mum, we ain't got the money to wash my bedding every single day, you know. And we went through the whole putting my mattress outside and the shame and embarrassment that I went through because of that. And you know, mum it at the end of a tether with frustration every day. So when I left the house every day, I jeopardized that safety and love for my mum. So when I went out of the house, I needed to do anything and everything in my power to win that love back. So I'd come home with full marks in my test. Right. I'd come home having won a football match, I'd come home representing this team and that team. So the achievements that I had, it wasn't just in Clark being the best, it was Clark getting his father's affirmation and attention. It was Clark winning his mum's love back. And that I only know that through therapy. Two years of intense therapy, yeah, that's my driving force for external approval and validation. I need to win, I need to be the best, I need you to know, I need you to feel that I'm the best. Because when you do, I'm loved, I'm accepted, I'm good enough. And that's a narrative that that football then compounded, yeah, uh, and it played out in my life right up until 36 years of age.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

And in terms of values, it sounds like your parents were fascinating people. Clark, but what is it? Incredible. Did anything carry through from them to you, even to this day? Anything value-wise they instilled as a child? I know there's probably a work ethic from your dad, which sounds like it's it's thread through, but there's anything you can think of going back to your childhood and think mum was like that, and that's what value I still live to this day.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

The one thing that I've learned off the back of my parents' upbringing, they unconditionally loved me, but I didn't know.

unknown 28:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

So because it wasn't articulated in a manner that I heard it, then I thought that love and affection was conditional. So now uh, you know, I every night with our children from a young age, it started with tell me, tell me something happy about your day, tell me something sad, tell me something funny. And that was to encourage that emotional literacy, emotional sharing and reflection. And then once they've told me that, I can tell them, look, I can't control how you're feeling in the day, and sometimes I can't do anything about it. Yet I will always be here and love you, yeah, irrespective. So, you know, the I want my children to be anchored in unconditional love. They don't have to earn it, yeah, you don't have to win it. Yeah, it will always I might not be able to do anything about it, yeah, but I'm always here. Yeah, you know, my parents wanted to give that to me, but it was in a way I couldn't hear it. Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

So I need to make sure that they know, yeah, you know, without a shadow of a doubt. There's probably an education piece for some parents about what exactly that means and trying to understand um when you know a young person's feeling a particular way that it's okay for that young person to disclose that with a parent and not feel judged or the other way around. I think sometimes to show fragility as a parent, certainly my child's a bit older, to explain to them how you feel, you know. I'm not feeling great today, or having a healthy conversation with them, just building them, I suppose reducing barriers and building relationships.

SPEAKER_00 29:43

I've just got goosebumps because you just reminded me of what happened yesterday. Yesterday I had a very uncomfortable day psychologically and emotionally, and I felt it. It makes my stomach clench, and my mind, my thoughts go 100 miles an hour, and um and I now I I allow myself in those moments. I'll tell my wife, I'll say, Carrie, my head's running, I don't need any answers, just let me be today. I'll be quiet, I won't engage in much conversation. And uh and our five-year-old daughter said to me, She said, Are you okay, Daddy? I said, But I said, you know, I'm not feeling great today. She said, Oh, you're tired. I said, No, it's not just tired, baby. I think I'm thinking about a lot. She said, Well, okay, well, I love you. And that she wasn't afraid, sure, you know, there wasn't like, Oh, I need to fix you, Daddy. Yeah, it was just she heard me and she told me that, and and that didn't happen by accident, Daddy. Exactly. You know, we have raised that where that is it's normal, it's comfortable, yeah. Uh, and that is it there, and and it's so amazing. And again, going back to the point that I made about our generation being in the difficult place, we want our children to tell us things, but how familiar will this be to parents out there? Kids, you you can tell tell us anything, you know, we're we're we're here for you next day. Oh dad, this has happened. You what? You did what? You know, we can say one thing, but what are we evidencing to our kids? What are our actions, our responses? Uh you know, are we open to hear their experiences and hear them as valid in their eyes? Without saying, you know, when I was a kid, I didn't it goes back to the four Yorkshiremen, done it. Oh, luxury! I used to wake up four hours before I went to bed, you know, without imposing our lens and perspective on what they're going through. Yeah, you know, it's a common occurrence in early relationships for our kids when they'll break up with someone or this someone's a love of their life, like you don't know what you're talking about. There's a million you know, other people out there. That's not what they want to hear there, you know. But right then and in that moment, we've got to appreciate that this scenario could well be the biggest thing that's happened in our child's life, yeah. Whether it's a test, whether it's a match, whether it's a relationship, you know, we've got a breadth of experience to contextualise.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

They haven't yet, and and they don't know quite how long that feeling's gonna last. Exactly. You know, in time in three or four weeks, things will feel vastly different. But that stage in your life, when you're 13, 14, 15, you think it's a temporary feeling's a permanent one. Yeah, it's gonna go on forever, and everyone's gonna judge me that are around me. Truth be told, in two or three weeks it will be okay, and things will be slightly different, but it's given them that that knowledge and support and being empathetic, I suppose, at that point. Definitely, otherwise, they'll never tell you anything, right? Exactly. It's pointless speaking because they're just gonna ignore me and tell me to grow up or toughen up, or you'll be okay in a couple of weeks' time. That's the opposite of what they want to uh want to go through.

SPEAKER_00 32:53

Exactly. You know, emotions are transient, they're finite, uh, and understanding that and allowing that is so important. And whether it's a child or young person, right through to a grown man or woman, what we need to do in our society is meet people where they are. You know, so let's say I've been, you know, I've my wife and I have been working in mental health for 10 years now, been delivering this, and I've got myself a psychology degree for greater depth and all of this, that, and the other. Yeah, I might have a conversation with someone who is not where I'm at. Yeah. In knowledge, in experience, in understanding. So I I can't judge them for it, nor can I impose my position. Yeah. I have to hear someone where they are at, and that's the approach that I think we need to bring to our young people. I don't know what it's like to grow up in this technological age where your your friends and your community and your engagement is not knocking on doors. The you know, the vast majority of them aren't physical people, yet they're engaging a community further and broader and wider than I ever was. I don't know that. So I have to go and meet it where it is. I have to try and hear it where it is, you know. When I speak to people of the older generation to us, and and and we're like, oh, they they don't want to talk about emotions or mental health. Of course they don't. You know, the last asylum shut in 1994. So when I talk about my auntie's experience of adverse mental health, it wasn't an experience of adverse mental health. She was locked up in the loony bin with pink padded walls, and it was the family shame and secret. Where's Auntie Maud? Or she she's just gone away for a bit. So of course they're not where we're at now in this conversation because their notions of go with a doctor for treatment are electro-convulsive therapy and being in straitjackets. Yeah. So let's meet people where they are, you know, have a breadth and a compassion for the whole spectrum of experiences and positions so that we can hopefully, you know, bring that new level of understanding.

SPEAKER_01 35:15

What I'm intrigued to find out is even when you were young and getting into it, were you conscious that there were specific values that you had to display or specific values that were unique to you? So, why did you start at Blackpool when you were so young and then climb that pyramid?

SPEAKER_00 35:32

Uh it's a really, really good question. Uh well, I started at Blackburn as uh 14-year-old, 13-year-old, and they rejected me at 15, and they were Premier League champions. Right. And that totally uh destroyed my notion that I was gonna be a footballer. Finished it. What at 15? At 15.

SPEAKER_01 35:52

So that's quite a mature age as well. To it is yeah. To like rationalise that. I suppose if you were 15 now and got dropped from a team, you'd probably take the assumption that it's that is that me? Am I do I have to look for something different now or am I good enough?

SPEAKER_00 36:04

Well, I cried for three days. You know, you've got to think that before that I thought I was gonna be Pele. Yeah, I thought I was gonna come from the slums and and you know be the greatest player in the world. And then there they decimated it. Uh cried for three days, Blackpool came knocking on the door, and I went to Blackpool with a totally adjusted notion of what I was gonna do. It was kind of like okay, I'll have a go at this, but uh, I'm gonna be a lawyer or a teacher. That's what I thought at 15. Um, but then when I got there, you say, Did I have an understanding of what I needed to be? Well, yeah, because in my mind I needed to be everything that you needed me to be. Okay, so I needed to be everything, and I was. So if I was with if I needed to be funny, I was funny. If I needed to be disciplined, I was disciplined. You know, all of these things that that's what I was. And um when it came to football and making it, I knew that I had to be a part of the bigger team and unit. Um, when you first get into a dressing room as a 16-year-old boy, which is what you are, and went there straight from my last GCSE, moved away from home, and you see this group of men, and you see that they have a certain um level of humour, they have a uh you know, a certain way of acting, which was kind of pre-sports science days, you know. They have a certain expectation of what you do on the training pitch, of of uh what you do socially, of what you do when you're on the pitch. That was exactly what I had to do. So it was a mirroring and emulating that I had to be the best at. What I thought I needed to do, utterly irrelevant. Right. I had to emulate these guys and do that to the best of my ability. And what were they doing particularly really well?

SPEAKER_01 38:03

But do you look back and think they they was there anything you learnt from them straight away? I suppose the the old pros to a certain extent in them changing rooms. What was the consistent with them?

SPEAKER_00 38:13

What I learned straight away, and I think this does apply quite well across life, is I was very subservient and submissive when I went in there. Uh I was, you know, I was taught respect and manners, Queen's English, and blah blah blah blah blah. And what I was taught was when you get on the pitch, that's not a polite place. You know, you you need to adopt a persona to go into, and this will sound very trite to speaking to a next serviceman. You go into battle, you know. This is uh a direct us or them win or lose scenario. So there's no after you, Claude. There's no picking someone up when you've just nailed him, you know. This is a we will win. And my coach Mike Davis, uh, we called him ginge for obvious reasons, um, and he took me to the side one day, and he and another coach, Alan Alan Crawford, it we they were in the era break you to make you, and they humiliated me, they really did. They humiliated me in front of the uh senior players and then amongst my peers as apprentices, but then they took me into the office, and the pair of them they said, Clark, you will not make it in football because you are too nice. Okay, this was at 16. You'll not make it because you're too nice. They said, I've seen your dad. He said, My dad was the man about time in Preston. He said, We know what he's like. He said, You need a nasty edge to you, else you won't make it. He said, We don't know how you're gonna do it, but you need to find it, otherwise you will not make a professional. And it was that conversation that I remember explicitly, um where it was almost like there became a duality in me. Um where it it well, in fact, it was more than that. Rather than just being like everything that people needed uh all the time, I was like, yeah, I'll do that for the people, but then when I get into this specific environment, which was training pitch and match day, uh like I must do this, I must perform in this manner, and it's take no prisoners, it's do my job, it's physically impose myself on the next person. It that there are no senior pros or young pros. There's a game for me to win and a job for me to do, and that transformed me, you know. That was the day I became a defender.

SPEAKER_01 40:55

Did you feel that was a a bit of a release that you could be somebody else? You were allowing yourself not to be Clark to a certain degree.

SPEAKER_00 41:02

I'll tell you what it did allow. I don't think I've ever talked about this before. It allowed an avenue for me to express brutality and aggression that I'd never had before. That was permitted. Yeah. Even though I'd uh I'd done we'd done Thai boxing as kids, might I, and like I won like half a dozen fights, but there was something about that that man-to-man combat, it it didn't work for me. Right after every fight, I was you know, like all like this, I was crying, right? Even though I won them all, you know, it was too much for me. So it was almost like this was an environment where it not only could I be aggressive and brutal, but I had to be clever about it. Right. How can I be the most aggressive and brutal defender that dominates people within the rules of the game? Yeah, you know, and it put me on a mindset that I think, you know, I'll be forever grateful to to Ginger and to Alan for putting me on that that track because that made me a defender. What I learnt and what I I you know I would convey it is understanding that there's a job to do and getting the job done is one thing and it's separate to who I am as a human. You know, being able to separate Clark the the husband or Clark the friend from Clark the footballer or the worker. It's a really important distinction in life.

SPEAKER_02 42:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:29

You know, to understand your whole self, the different roles that you have, and rather than wearing a mask, which is what we say nowadays, rather than being disingenuous, it's it's no, I need to, I need to like bring front and center these traits when I'm in this role. Right. People say masking's a bad thing. Look, if you're masking because it's appropriate, that's exactly right. I'm not going to speak to you the same way I speak to my children, the same way I'll speak to King Charles, the same way I speak to my wife. Yeah. And and presenting a different version of me for you now, that's not masking uh in a negative way, that's me being appropriate. Sure. So if you're doing that, that's good. Yeah. That's how you allow to get from scenario to scenario and still be authentic. However, if you're masking because you're putting on a face to hide emotional discomfort, psychological challenges, etc., now that's not good. Right. That's when, um, and again, you know the whole bring your whole self to work narrative. I've got no truck with that, Dan. Right. Your work environment is a professional environment. You bring your professional self to work. If in bringing your professional work, uh your professional self to work, you realise actually I'm putting this mask on because I'm trying to suppress A and B and C, you don't take the mask off at work, you make sure. That you have the right, safe, supported place to go and take that mask off and venture and release and say, look, I was in this situation at work today. It took everything I could to get through it, and now I need to share with you. I really felt anger, I really felt shame. You know, I was feeling fraudulent, all of that. So it's not bring your whole self to work. What if your whole self's a racist, a misogynist? Don't do that.

SPEAKER_02 44:29

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:30

But do have your safe, supported place to explore the things that you think that your situation or persona was suppressing.

SPEAKER_01 44:39

Yeah. Were you conscious of that as a footballer? Did you have a safe space to well?

SPEAKER_00 44:45

I didn't have the safe space, and that's what led to my problems. Right, okay. Which because I I would go and be all things to all people, when in here I felt um embarrassed, ashamed, I felt weaker, I felt less than, I felt like a I did feel like an a fraud, a charlatan, that I was a waste of space. Because of that, um, and I didn't have the space, nor did I think that there was a space or there was something to do with, you know, to to do about it. I felt so duplicitous.

SPEAKER_02 45:18

Right.

SPEAKER_00 45:18

You know, I genuinely felt like a fraud. I would stand there as chairman of the PFA, uh representing my fellow peers on all things that are important. I'd be like, yes, this is really. And I'm like, in it, Clark, you fraud. Who do you think you are? What are you standing up there thinking you're someone important? Well, tell you what, Clark, today's the day they're gonna find you out. You're gonna get exposed to that. Okay. And that internal narrative was so destructive. I felt more than duplicitous. I felt, you know, I felt like I don't want to say the term loosely, so but schizophrenic is the way that it can be received. I felt like I had multiple personalities and none of them were me.

SPEAKER_01 46:02

There'd be plenty of people listening that are in leadership positions who think that's it's just describing me.

SPEAKER_00 46:07

Yeah, there will be, there will be plenty of people who hear that. Well, I I want to elaborate on that first, Dan, because I I got to suicide on multiple occasions and I'm blessed that I'm here today. Before you get to suicide, there's there's a a period called suicidal ideation, and we don't talk about it enough because this is an action point. Okay, this is a time where we need to know that it's a thing so that we can get help before we get to there. Okay, you know, like Desmond Tutu said, we've got to stop fishing people out the river going upstream and seeing why they're jumping in. So, you know, before you get to that point, you get those notions of self-destructive internal narratives, and then that often descends into ideation, which can it takes the form of practical logistical planning of harm. So let's say we're sat here and I'm thinking to myself, uh you know, I could just poke Dan in the eye. I haven't done it, that was just a passing intrusive thought. We all get that, yeah. And it's the same, you know, with oh, I wish I wasn't here. I could people get that existential intrusive thought. That's a passing thought. But ideation would be if I sat here and I thought, yeah, do you know what? I'd poke him in the eye with this finger, and then when I get out there, I'm like, yeah, and do you know what? I'd do it on a Tuesday. And then I get in my car and I think, yeah, and when I do it, I'll say this and you'll say that. And I get oh man, I'm saying, yeah. See, when you're starting to practically plan how harm is going to come to you, or you're going to harm yourself, that's ideation, okay, and that is alarm bells. Yeah, that's when you need to intervene. So you asked me how I came out of my situation. I I got to the point, psychiatric hospital, my third stay in psychiatric hospital. The third two had been private, but this one in 2017 was NHS, and you know, without exaggeration, I was at change or die. That they were my only two options, and at the time, I I wanted to die. And my wife was coming to visit, and she was saying, you know, um, how are you? And be like, Well, I'm sorry, love, I'm not going to be here tomorrow, but thanks for coming. You know, I was there.

SPEAKER_01 48:36

You you were vocalizing that to you, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_00 48:38

Yeah, to my wife in psychiatric hospital, which you know, I I won't speak for her, but yeah, you know, please do listen to Carrie Carlisle and her experience, anyone who's supporting someone else, and she will tell you the importance of getting support for yourself so that you can support someone else. Um, you know, the what she experienced and my family experienced in that time is utterly incredible. But in that moment, I was given a seed of hope, and that seed of hope came in the form of a different mode of therapy that I hadn't experienced before. And the reason why that gave me hope was because in that darkest of moments where I thought there was nothing that could be done, I realized that there was something I hadn't tried, and I was like, oh, and that got me looking in that direction. And at the same time, it were it was said to me, and I finally accepted that I can have all of the support mechanisms and all of the therapy in the world, but if I don't do it, I won't get well. Okay, and it was the agency that that gave me. Yeah, you know, that depression and adverse mental health wasn't something that's happening to me that I've got no control over. I have agency in addressing this, and I know from my football career that with agency comes responsibility. I'm not gonna get picked if I don't train hard. I'm not gonna train hard if I'm if I'm not um, you know, physically well. So I'm not gonna be physically well unless I eat the right things, unless I sleep well. So breaking all of that approach down, at that moment, I thought, well, okay, Clark, I'm gonna approach wellness like I did football. And I'm gonna start as an apprentice and I'm gonna give you everything that I've got. And I engaged in cognitive analytical therapy like a therapy boy. Right. You know, we it we it was a skewed perspective because I wanted to win therapy, I wanted to be the best um patient that the client that the therapist had ever seen. Now, even though that was a skewed approach, by doing so, I got, you know, let's say 12 weeks in and I realized, well, you know, that I'm not gonna win therapy. Yeah, you know, that's not the the the kind of drive with which to go go at it, but in doing so, I'm learning so much. Absolutely, and that's how I I that's how I get to that realization. Does that make sense? Yeah, and it all starts to unfold in front of me. So there was the exploration of why I make the decisions that I do, there was the understanding of my emotional responses and what they're anchored in, which invariably was childhood, but there was this absolute, you know, epiphany that I could change my responses to events. Okay. Event plus response equals outcome. And I thought that my responses and the outcomes were preordained. That if situation A happens, situation Z become yellow. No, it doesn't have to be like that. Yeah, I can change that. Yeah. Not overnight, but if I'm conscious and I train myself, I can cr I can develop new responses, new understandings, new reactions in scenarios. Practice, it doesn't make perfect. Practice makes permanent. And unless you're aware of what you're practicing in the context of emotional responses, you've made permanent a subconscious response.

SPEAKER_01 52:36

What you mentioned before is an epiphany. Was that do you remember that feeling? Was it quite instantaneous thing? And I I've actually I I there's a route out of this that feels doable.

SPEAKER_00 52:44

It it were it was like on the a road to Damascus moment. My um previous narrative, this is one of the difficulties with diagnoses. I was diagnosed with recurrent complex depressive disorder. And in my unwellness, I fixated on the recurrent. Okay, if it's recurrent, then it's always gonna come back. If it's always gonna come back, then what's the point of me doing anything about it? Yeah, I'm gonna perpetually put my family through this and I'm gonna come to this point. And in with an unwell mind, it felt futile. Right. And then when I I got this notion of agency, because I've overcome the odds before, because I was injured for two years with a knee replacement, but I got back and played 400 games after the surgeon told me I was gonna walk with a stick. I was like, okay, yeah, the medical guys have told me that, but I I've realized that I can actually impact the outcome here. Absolutely. My response can determine my course. Yeah, so yeah, you can say that, but I'm gonna confound you. And I have. Yeah. I haven't had a depressive episode, and I don't mean suicidal. Yeah. I'm I've the last time I was actively suicidal was 2017. I was on meds, blah, blah, blah, did all my therapy, and I got to 2021, where I realized that meds were tapering my lows, but they were also tapering my highs. That's what meds do, they stabilize. It's kind of like numbing to a certain degree. Okay. And I knew I was experiencing things in life where I should be feeling something in a positive vein. Yeah, joy, elation, or whatever that may be. And I wasn't. And I talked to my wife, and I was like, look, you know, I've made so much growth, I know I've got productive, healthy coping strategies. I would like to come off my meds. Okay. And she was like, okay, well, let's do it. So we did it. And you know, mental health and well-being, wellness is kind of ethereal, you know. Um I come off my meds, and uh, and you know, I was feeling like yeah, I'm engaging with life, and then my dad died suddenly. And uh this guy, the most incredible human, and um and it was disgusting, Dan. Yet at no point was it dangerous, okay, and that told me, it taught me that yeah, I am well now.

SPEAKER_02 55:20

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:21

The feelings are there, yeah. I was processing the emotions in a constructive way, yeah. And this is why when people ask me, How are you today? I'll say, I'm well, and that doesn't mean that I'm happy or sad or anything in between. I might be all of the above. Yeah, to be well to me means that I am present, life will throw its challenges at me, and I'm dealing with them in a positive and constructive, healthy manner.

SPEAKER_01 55:48

Yeah, yeah. To be completely candid with you, over the years here at Commando Geo's has been, you know, we we employ at the moment about 30, 40 veterans, um, and again stereotypically, uh, they were probably serving during a noughty's a time when Iraq and Afghanistan was extremely challenging, and then left. And up until 2010, 11, 12. In fact, before we start recording, I mentioned earlier on, I remember in 2002, three, four, five, some outstanding leaders in the military, but just didn't know how to handle conversations like this. I told you going to a leader in the military in 2003, four, five and saying, I'm not okay, I don't feel okay, I feel X, Y, and Z. They would have been told then three answers I mentioned earlier on, like toughen up, Princess. Go and have a word with yourself in the mirror, or leave. And I think that quickly changed late noughties, early 10, 11, 12, because they had this wave of people going through trauma in the early, you know, 2002 to 2007. Yeah. Then people stepped away from that, had the chance to kind of digest those feelings and those experiences, and just didn't know where to go with them. And you're in the wrong space to be equipped for that. So, thankfully, some great charities out there now that are providing some support, but that's a that's a seismic shift for someone to have those feelings, those uh those emotions, and then now where to go with it. Yes, I can't I can't tell someone about this. That's not right. You don't do that in a military, you don't do it in sport. Would you think sport had a um maybe a light bulb moment or a moment where things turned or changed, where maybe conversation about mental health uh was maybe more um productive.

SPEAKER_00 57:35

You mentioned a moment earlier um off camera where the the tragic death of Gary Speed and more recently we we've had the deaths of Matt Beard uh and Ricky Hatton, you know, deaths by suicide that bring to the fore the humanity of everyone well in sport, you know, that whatever pedestal you put people on, they are human beings. Uh and you know, we've seen that the the suicide rates in in ex-service men and women and the uh the issues with with with drugs, alcohol, gambling, that they are prevalent, they are rife, and understandably so. You know, um you talked about there, you know, the the that whole masculinity concept, and one of the one of the strands of that that that destroys a guy, or it did destroy me, was and it's a total fallacy, is that if I speak about this and look to share, then it will undermine my capacity or ability as a as a man, as a father, as a son, as a husband. When the the fact of the matter is now, here in 2025, after eight years of actively pursuing my wellness and understanding my emotions and sharing them with the right people at the right time, I am the most capable, confident, and competent person I've ever been. Right. And that means I'm the best husband and father and son and friend that I've ever been. This often happens with societal issues. We say A's a problem and this approach is wrong. So the pendulum swings right to the other end. And because of this, it's good to talk vibe, and you need to share all that, Malaki. People think that they have to be all things to all people. It's not true. If you're not a pastoral person, that's alright.

SPEAKER_02 59:48

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:48

You know, if I'm not the person who hugs and sits and blah blah blah, that's okay. Yeah. If I'm not, however, I need to make sure that I know who or where is. And that's the next part of this conversation. We've told everyone it's good to talk. People are getting a decent understanding about when they need to talk. Now we need to upskill and upnowledge people about what to do when you're talked to.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:16

You know, because that first interaction can be so pivotal in the course of a person's, you know, reaching out for help or their exploration journey. So if if you shared something with me, Dan, and I was like, oh well, suck it up. Like the military in years gone by, tougher up. What's the likelihood of you sharing that again with anyone? It's unlikely. Yeah. If you share it with me and I'm not pastoral, but I don't and I'm I'm un, you know, I've got no confidence and I'm uncertain. That's gonna translate to you. Yeah, you know, you're gonna feel like, oh no, I I am a problem, this is a problem. If you share something with me and I'm like, Dan, I hear you, I don't know the answer to that, yeah, but I know the people who do. Go and call this number, yeah. Go and see these people. Have you tried A, B, and C? Yeah, because that that's that's the pathway for you to find the answer for this.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:15

Is there a blocker for help that's a common thread with predominantly males? I mean, there's four billion men on the earth, so there are four billion different ways to be a man, you know. Um so for us to say that there's one blocker.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:28

Is the is there something you come across that's quite quite a common approach that we need to be maybe acutely aware of?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:34

Well, to try and take it down to to you know a palatable single strand, I think that the dominant factor in getting and receiving help uh is is stigma and confidentiality. Right. That's the dominant factor, you know, for whatever the reason, whether it's you know, self-image, whether it's external perception, embarrassment, fear, shame, there is a pile of stigma that will stop someone from engaging because they're not sure if who or where they're engaging is going to retain their confidence. Right. You know, it's I I often say this: you don't have to be like me, you don't have to tell everyone, but it's imperative that you tell someone and the right someone at the right time. And so for men, I think it's important that that men here, the world doesn't have to know. You know, just because something's going on doesn't mean it has to be everyone's business. Yeah, that happened to me because I I I was a professional footballer, my life played out that way, but it is it is entirely right and proper and appropriate for you to just have your right someone to tell. And my recommendation would be that that someone isn't a person who's invested in your happiness, it's someone who is invested, preferably professionally, in your wellness. Okay. So you go to a friend, a partner, family member, they need you to be happy. You know, especially partners. The if you if you express uncertainty, the human reaction is said, What have I done wrong? What's wrong with our relationship? Yeah, yeah. Are they gonna leave me? You know, it's a natural human response. If it's a parent or oh, how can I protect you? You know, it's like all of that. Whereas if you can go to a removed person who isn't wanting to make you happy, they want you to be well, yeah, and they're being paid to do so, go there. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. They'll be objective, they'll keep your confidence, yeah, they'll set you on a path.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:55

Exactly. Now, just to go back again to your footballing days, was it a thing then? Was the conversation happening maybe at the latter end of your career about clubs being more well-versed in supporting this in comparison to maybe the 90s?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:09

Yeah, definitely. There was a definite shift, and it and you know, obviously, retrospectively, I can I can I can see the curve. Um, I was diagnosed with depression in 2010, got the labeling about it. Yeah, I was chair of the PFA at the time. Yeah, so I started to speak about having depression, even though I didn't understand it, yeah, and I wasn't doing anything about it. Um, and then we're having a look at what football does, and football was starting to pride itself on the on psychologists coming into the game. Well, truth be told, they were optimum performance psychologists, so they were actually in context of the human being, they were dysfunctional, right? Because they're they're training you to have that you know, that almost mind-washing, uh brain-washing mantra of we will not fail. Right, you know, all the things that you see, we're like, yeah, all of this, which works and it's brilliant for the playing sector, for the objective, exactly, but not for the human. So it went on that trend, and then there was um, you know, we started to look, well, actually, you know, maybe mental health is separate, so they started to look to safeguarding and well-being officers and stuff like that. Okay, and now in football, there's a plethora of fantastic work going on. There really is, you know. Um that being said, it's often siloed because we we say football, football's 92 separate businesses. Every one of them need they're actively searching um for that one percent. Right. So if the way that they look after their players makes them one percent better than the next club, then why should they tell the next club what they're doing? You know, so there are pockets of Fantastic activity going on, but being siloed as this is ours. Okay. But you've got a transient workforce. So you've got a player who's getting fantastic support here, and then all of a sudden overnight is transferred hundreds, if not thousands, of miles away. Well, where's that support network then? There's not the only thing worse than not having a support network is having one and then it being taken away. Yeah. None of the information goes with all of that. So there is still work to be done. Yeah. However, the trend is good and the the people who are approaching it are uh to my mind and what I can see, people who aren't entrenched in football of old, yeah, and they're more uh qualified and entrenched in well-being of new. Right, yeah. And if if if that can marry, then I have I have hopes for what it can do.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:57

When you hit your your worst score, because was there a correlation between finding a new identity and you not not being um not being well? So post was it post-football when you felt that things weren't as good as they should be?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:14

Hmm. I it was abundantly clear that I needed support when I was playing. But actually engaging with it, pursuing it and seeing it through, uh and seeing it through for a purpose that was anchored in self that didn't come until 2017-2018.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:38

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:40

Even before then, you know, even I'd been in psychiatric hospital a couple of times, I'd I'd had a few different, you know, um therapy sessions, it was never for me to get well. Right. It it I was doing it so that I wasn't burdening other people. Okay. So that, you know, um yeah. I I don't know, is that what you were is that what you were?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:06

Yeah, I was just trying to correlate because you know, if you think about the likes of Ricky Hatton, and I was even listening to a podcast only a few days ago with uh Tony Bellow, a boxer, yeah, George Groves, they were speaking about the the the the high of being on top of the world and succession planning post that and they uh Tony Bellow spoke quite well about he did have a succession plan, George Groves, something similar, but more often than that, maybe that there isn't one. Um so even if you're during that state of being at the at the top of your game, whatever that that may be, what happens post then it could be extremely negative, but I'm not sure. I was trying to cover it then. At what point did you feel you know things weren't as good as they should be? I didn't realise it was so much so when you were still playing as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:51

Yeah, I'd planned for a career post-football, you know. I I was um like I said, I was chair of the PFA, I wanted to go down that business route um or broadcasting, I got a degree in broadcasting, I went to work for ITV. I I actually ended my contract at Northampton with a year left uh because I had the job at ITV, so to step into seamless transition, it was all planned out, yeah. Um but that still didn't go to address the gaping chasm of a loss of identity, yeah. It it didn't go to address, you know, talking about those highs and lows and being on top of the world. I I don't know how you can prepare for those. Yeah, yeah. The loss of identity, we need to raise people who understand the whole self and not just I am my job and my job is me. You know, that's how you do that. But replacing the the incredible highs and lows and the protracted nature of them, I I don't know how you do that. In fact, I don't think you do, and this is gonna sound a little bit um, I don't know, it might be uncomfortable for people to hear. Um I have come to a point where I accept that life is not going to be as high as it was. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna emulate those feelings anymore. Yeah, and I've had to accept that. Yeah. Now the the difficulty in accepting that is in say is because when you voice it, let's say my wife now, who didn't even know me as a footballer, you know, my children, the it can be received as though, oh what, so life's gonna be rubbish now. No, that that's not that's not what's being said. What I'm saying is those feelings, I won't feel them again. Yeah, that that feeling that I relay to you with with my five-year-old daughter yesterday, that gives me a height, it's different, but it it means it feels, you know, my eldest is expecting now I'm gonna be a grandfather for the first time in January. That's given me a feeling, yeah, it's different to you know, equally sizable. Yeah, yeah, but that being the centre as a group of 11 and your actions having national reverberations and directly impacting the lives of hundreds of thousands of other people after 90 minutes of what I did there, yeah, yeah, I won't get that again.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:25

Sure thing. And it supposed there's two things to observe, isn't there? One is you can look at it in two ways that the disappointment of I'll never feel that again. That feeling of elation or or pride or joy or on balance, you can look at the same thing but in a positive way and go, I'm so proud of that. What a brilliant part of my life that was. What what a you know, a stamp of approval or whatever way that may be of a huge positive thing has happened, and I'm gonna draw on that positivity for the rest of my life. You that's a hundred percent spot on, Dan. Last question, and we'll bookend the podcast with this, but I could talk with you all day. But uh, we've got one final um bit of advice, really. And in fact, you've got how old are your kids, by the way? Did you say before?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:10

Uh 26, 18, 15, 7, 5.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:14

Right, okay. So we'll go with we'll go with a seven. That sounds like a really sweet age, that doesn't it? With the starting to really develop a personality and understand who they are. What what piece of advice would you give them in relation to to character and and values that they would need to not succeed in life, but I suppose to to live a life of well-being?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:35

Uh you are enough. People will have opinions, and they can have those opinions, but it doesn't define who you are. You are enough, you're unconditionally loved by me.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:51

That's awesome. Absolutely awesome. And have you told them that on a daily basis?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:57

Every day, on a daily basis, you know what? I I think it emotional literacy and having that that it that knowledge and foundation of knowing that I am enough, yeah, and I I can bring things to the world. My my kids have got that. Yeah, you go and do it. Yeah, yeah, you go and do it.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:15

And on that note, that epitomizes the last two hours of conversation. It's been an absolute pleasure. I know we've been for the last few weeks trying to get together. The work you're doing in schools, what you're doing with leaders across the sector, across varying sectors, continues to be fascinating. So thanks so much for coming. Friend of the business now as well, to hopefully do keep in touch. But uh feeling pleasure. You'll never get rid of me, Dan. That's it. Thanks so much for that. Thank you so much for it. Thank you very much.