The Character Podcast
The Character Podcast, hosted by Dan Kelly, explores the real-life experiences that shape who we become.
Each episode features guests from across the education sector alongside inspirational voices — from Olympians and elite performers to Marines, leaders and changemakers. Through honest conversation, guests share how moments of challenge, adversity and growth have helped build their character.
Rooted in the core values of resilience, empathy and self-awareness, the podcast focuses on lived experiences — not polished success stories — and the lessons learned along the way.
The Character Podcast
The Character Podcast - Episode 6: Kerry Inscker
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On this episode of the Character Podcast, Kerry Inscker, Interim CEO of Shaw Education Trust, shares an inspiring conversation about leadership, character, and the experiences that shape who we become. Drawing on her journey from classroom teacher to trust leader, Kerry reflects on the values that have guided her career and the importance of leading with authenticity, trust, and integrity.
From navigating challenges and building resilience to empowering others and creating cultures of high expectations, Kerry explores what effective leadership looks like in schools and beyond. She discusses the importance of listening, developing people, making decisions close to the point of information, and why great leaders focus on creating more leaders around them.
Kerry also reflects on the personal experiences that have shaped her perspective, including overcoming self-doubt, learning through adversity, and the role of character in both professional and personal growth.
A thought-provoking conversation about leadership, resilience, purpose, and the lasting impact of investing in people.
Kevin, welcome to the show. How's things?
SPEAKER_01Good, thank you.
SPEAKER_00I've got to be honest, Kevin, this is the first time we've we've recovered the podcast outside of the comfort of our own office. Oh really? So if this if the cameras don't work or the mics go down, I don't know what to do. So we'll just have to keep rerunning these questions, but thanks so much for having us. And we're at the home of Show of Education Trust. And for those people that don't know much about you, you are the interim chief executive of the trust itself. Um how are you? You okay? Keeping well?
SPEAKER_01Really good, thank you. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Good stuff. Podcasts done many?
SPEAKER_01Done none.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01Listen to a few. Oh, cool. So um really not sure what to have expected today. So um we'll just go along with it and see what happens.
SPEAKER_00Well, good thing is, Kerry, we're still making it up anyway. We're still making it up. It's just good conversation with really good people. So, for those viewers and listeners that don't know much about you, Kerry, obviously you're big on LinkedIn. You're really pushing the trust there of a lot. You kind of got a really great presence there. But for those that don't know much about you and who you are, do you want to give us a quick summary?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so um I'm um a secondary English teacher originally. I started life actually before then as a secretary. So um I'm great at typing and taking notes, which has helped me my whole career. Um, but yeah, so um secondary English teacher, and then have moved through the profession into leadership posts, right, yeah, heads of departments, senior leaders, etc. Um, and then moved into headship, joined this trust five years ago or five and a half years ago as an executive head over to secondary schools that were in challenging circumstances, and then um joined the central team and have progressed through there to the post I'm in today.
SPEAKER_00We'll get on the skin of character for just a minute. Were you did you get into education with an assumption that you'll end up progressing and promoting quite quick? Did you have that kind of inbuilt in you as a child or anything?
SPEAKER_01No, I don't think so. Um, I think I've always thought about what's the next step, not what's the four, five, six next steps, not the distant future. But when I've gone into a job and settled into it and enjoyed it, I have thought about so I suppose I'm quite ambitious like that, yeah, but I've been ambitious for the next step, not necessarily for the future where it might end up.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And naturally, you know, obviously you do a lot with with get set go within the trust, actually, that Commando Joe's are about to work on over the coming months. Um, you do a lot across the trust in terms of character, but you've got a really diverse trust, right? And I didn't actually realise until a few months ago when I popped into these offices how diverse it is. I mean, I suppose if you think about the end user in education, which is the child, you've got, I suppose, every type of child to a certain degree in terms of age, yeah, ability, uh, specific needs, it's really diverse. So, what's the trust like in summary?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so um children can join us at age two, um, and then we're in partnership with a specialist independent college who go to 25. So it is really from being a very young child through to being an adult, um, and every type of person that you could possibly imagine with every single type of ambition, um, we've got children who face real challenge physically, cognitively, financially, um, and children that are flourishing in different ways, you know, academically, sports, music, um a real cross-section of society that's also represented in our staff, and I think that brings such a bonus to us because we do work together a lot for the benefit of the children that we support.
SPEAKER_00We'll we'll get under the skin of it probably in about half an hour or so, but to have a trust with firstly so many schools, but then have so many diverse needs, you then got so many diverse um staff to support those needs, and it must be a real, real challenge. But before we get into that and kind of your career, um obviously the whole premise of this is is about character. Yes. What does that word mean to you? What does what does character mean to Kerry?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, I mean, character is a word we use a lot, isn't it? But to define it, I think, is quite difficult because it's a concept um and it's quite abstract. Um, but to me, it's very much about who you are as a person and what you believe as a person and how that manifests in terms of your behaviours, um, how you deal with people, how you react in different circumstances, and I think underneath all that, this thing called character is very much what's important to you without even thinking about it, it's your automatic driver, an automatic reaction. Yeah, so I think it's very much about that, and it it's built character over years, yeah. It's something that develops. Can you consciously develop your character? You can put yourself in situations which may develop character, yeah. Um, but I think it's something that just through the course of your life, something that develops as you go through different situations.
SPEAKER_00Maybe to jump to the end of your career or end of your career, where you are now, okay. What what what is it about you and your obviously there must be thousands of people in the space, education space, that that want to be a CEO or want to be in C-suite, and I've known that there's tons of ambitious people, but what is it about your specific character? What what values do you hold here?
SPEAKER_01Um so integrity is really important, um, and I'm really grateful to my colleagues across the trust for the way that they've embraced me as interim CEO. And I was embraced very quickly into the role, and I put that down to I'd already got a strong reputation with people that I worked with, so they people know with me what you see is what you get, um, and they know I really value people, and I think one of my one of the reasons I've been successful as a leader is because of how I do work and interact with people. So I don't necessarily know the answer all the time, and I'm not necessarily the expert in the room, but I really value people who are, and and I'm very open to listening to other people's ideas. Um, I'm really open to being challenged, um, and I think people trust me. Um so I think that's probably led to why I've been embraced so well in this position. Yeah, but I I don't think I'm nothing special, you know. I'm I'm just come through with some experiences and always tried my best, um done what I think is right, and that's led me to the place that I am today. I think, as I say, I've looked at what's the next step in the career. So I've consciously gone out in my working life to get experiences that will enable me to make a next step. Um, and I've been very lucky with some of the bosses I've had that have enabled me to do that.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01Um, and I think I've just embraced the opportunities.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And and in fact, what you mentioned there is is really kind of endearing for any leader because as a leader of any organisation, irrespective if you've got five staff or what you've got, how many hundreds? Take it?
SPEAKER_01Thousands, thousands of staff. 2,700, yeah.
SPEAKER_002,700. And you've got them 2,700 people effectively funneling through, and you just said then that you don't know everything and you don't pretend to know everything, and that's really endearing, right? For any leader to to pretend that they know everything, the pressure on that person must be intense, they'll make wrong decisions because of ego. Um, is that something that you found difficult? Have we always been is your character always been that way?
SPEAKER_01No, I think I've always been like that because I think there can be a pressure on leaders that people expect you to know the answer.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I guess there's a difference between coming across as I really don't know what I'm doing, to I may not know the answer now, but I can be confident that I'll get the right answer and that I'll embrace people that I need to to lead us in the right direction.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I guess it's just the balance of how you do that because nobody wants a leader that every day when you're asking questions or there's a crisis, and I think I'm I'm strong in a crisis, it's one of the things. Yeah, longer term, I'm okay, but in a crisis, it's where I thrive really.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Um so when I started my headship journey into that where people do look at you, and people say it doesn't matter what experience you've had as a deputy or assistant head until you actually sit in the big black chair, you don't know the job, and that is absolutely true. And one thing that I learnt very on is very early on, is that people always have an opinion on what what your decisions are and how you're doing, and I think early in my career I would feel pressured by if somebody suggested something, or well, why are you doing that? It would make me doubt that and make me think, actually, do I need to change that? Um and I remember a defining moment was when I was a head teacher, and I'd only been a head teacher for a few months, and we were working on a vision statement, and we'd have gone through all the staff because I'm very consultative, so we'd have gone through all the staff, and we've got this vision statement, two parts to it, we loved it, and I shared it with him, and he went, that's okay, but I'd flip them around if I was you. And oh, okay, yes. And then I remember driving home and thinking, Why? That that's not right. And it was a real defining moment when I realised actually I'm paying too much attention to people's views of what the decisions I'm making are and how I'm making decisions instead of trusting that I know what I'm doing. So that made me go. It's okay not to know and seek advice and opinion and to listen and change, but it's not okay to feel pressured to flip-flop in your decisions. So I think that moment for me was a real piece of self-realisation, yeah, where it just made me more confident about no, I know what I'm doing. If I don't know, I'll ask. And then I don't worry about whether people think, uh, am I asking because I don't know? Is she rubbish? Because well, whatever.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I do things for the right reasons.
SPEAKER_00Can we just go back to the point there? You mentioned the the black chair of being in the first role of being of having, you know, leading a school, which is such a such a proud moment for anyone. Um, I know you've got 30 plus head teachers now within the trust. What values do you look for in a in a head teacher, either through recruitment or or going through the process of um of them reporting to you?
SPEAKER_01Well, first of all, I think you've got to be any for the right reason, and that's for the benefit of children. You've got to be absolutely committed to the children that are going to be in your care, and then you've got to be absolutely committed to the staff that are going to deliver the education and the support that those children need. So, again, it's all comes back to people really for me. Um, have they got the right values? You know, I don't want people who are career head teachers that are coming into it because it's a good experience to make the next step. I want people that are coming into it because they absolutely believe that they can make a difference and we'll move heaven and earth to do that for our children. Um integrity is really important because I operate very much on trust. Um, so I believe in empowering people, giving them that feeling that they've got agency to go and make decisions and do things their way. Whilst I don't really like the term holding people to account because it sounds like a negative thing, but through working with people and line managing people, that's when you give them the time to sit down and talk through how are things going. Yeah, but I need to be able to trust that the minute we walk out of there, they're still committed and driven by their own values, not because they know they're going to meet me in a couple of weeks and I want some answers.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Sounds like your values are empowerment and training and then letting them have the freedom to kind of let the school grow and let them grow. But fundamentally, if there's elements of um of reporting they have to do to make sure they're in a straight line with the job, well, that's a really important thing to get right as well, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and be judged on your results and your impacts. So, you know, I don't really mind at all how you do your job as long as you're delivering what the schools and the children and the staff need and I need you to deliver. It doesn't, there are more than one ways to achieve the same things, and I think early in leadership, that can be quite a difficult message for a leader to take. Yeah, because especially if you've been successful, so you know how to do something, the temptation is to go, but do it like this. And I've got a motto really that um let people make mistakes, don't let them fail. So if you need to do try something, as long as I can see it's not going to be a complete disaster, in which case I would go, oh go and try it. Yeah, um, and I worked when I became the interim CEO, I did quite a bit of work around what you've just talked about. So there are two styles of leadership, aren't they? There's the this is my way, this is how we do it, or there's the leadership which meets your need.
SPEAKER_02Sure.
SPEAKER_01And I'm very much about you manage people to get the best out of them. And I work with the leaders around think about what does the person sat in front of you really need. So I work with people, some need a very clear, right? This is what we're doing, this is where we're going. How are you going to develop that? Others need a broad, I want to end up here, and just let them crack on with it. Yeah, others need more regular touch points, some don't. And it's just having the confidence in the people that you've got to say, I will be adaptable, because at the end of the day, I'm it's not about my success, it's about the children and the staff and the and the schools, and then the only people that are gonna get success there are the head teachers, yeah. So I'm much more concerned about them feeling empowered and the central team feeling empowered to go and work with the schools how they need the doing it in a way I say, really. So but it does demand a lot of trust, absolutely, and I guess sometimes I have to question myself over where is that balance between complete trust, just crack on and do it, and actually I've got to make sure because I've got responsibility to make sure the trust is successful, yeah. Things are being done effectively.
SPEAKER_00What when recruiting for senior leaders can have to be, you know, your your central team here or head teachers, is there anything character-wise that you not specifically overtly ask or or or want to see, but things that um you enjoy having conversation about or or trying to like pull out of people during during those conversations for interview?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I'm really interested in people's motivation and why, um, and that often is beyond professional, isn't it? You know, there are things in people's lives that drive them and and make them committed to things, um, so that can be really interesting, but also what is their norm, what are their expectations? You know, I've got I'm thinking of a head teacher that I was with a couple of weeks ago, and the school is amazing, the head teacher is amazing, and the job they've done in a couple of years to get the school where it is is nothing short of transformational.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01But as I walked the school, it was a tiny bit of paper picked up off the floor. Oh, that was a nice lesson, but they didn't do that. It was the le his expectations and the level of attention to detail that he had that you could see was the clear difference, and I think in schools that's something that's really important. Now, people do that differently, don't they? But do you have high expectations for how your teams will operate and what your children will achieve? Because if you don't, another lesson I learned in leadership, I was very fortunate to do a terms sabbatical for a university that I was working with. So I did a terms research on outstanding schools and visited a lot of outstanding schools right across the country, met leaders, um, and what I realised was high expectations of leaders can dissipate the further down the hierarchy that it goes, and messages that head teachers were giving. So the specific example was around a target for a science department, um, and the head teacher, I was privy to a conversation with the deputy, had said we've got to get it around 60% of the children. Now, when I spoke to the class teachers, they were talking about 20%. Right. And what happened is the deputy had gone 60, that's really challenging. The head had gone 55, 60. So when the deputy met the head of department, it was that's really challenging, 55, that's what they heard. Well, 45 to 55. Then they went to their teams and it was 35 to it had dissipated down. And it's interesting how if you don't have really high expectations and you're willing to hold yourself and others to it, it can dissipate quite quickly.
SPEAKER_00What I love about your leadership, Sarko, you mentioned it several times already, is you want to bring people in on that for decision making. Yes, you want to make the ultimate decision, but you want to make informed decisions, it sounds like, with everyone feeling valued around you. Because you know, the truth be told is in any organization, there's people around you ultimately that should be better at their jobs in relation to the field you're talking about than you are. You're you're not going to oversee finance, you've got someone to oversee finance, you've got someone to oversee the curriculum, teaching and learning, recruitment. And I think the key is to kind of empower them people. I think Steve Jobs once said, Don't employ good people and tell them what to do. Yes, employ good people and they'll tell you. Yes. And I think there's an element of that what you're explaining.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I always want people to be better than me and know more than me, because if they don't, I don't need them. Yeah, and so that's what I always look for. I like people that will challenge, and we've had a couple of things this week where I've really celebrated colleagues who've gone, Kerry, I think you're wrong there. Someone's just done it to me. Something small, but I'm like, Thank you. I want you to say you haven't got it right, and then we'll talk it through. And sometimes I'll go, I've listened to what you said, but I still think this. Most of the time, I go, do you know what? That was a great idea. Um, I listened to a podcast a while ago, and it may not be a podcast because I'm a I'm of a certain age, so I'm not all up on the terminology, but um, and it's one about a really successful um leader in the navy on a submarine, right? And it's all about the phrases decision making at the point of information, and I really took that on board because I sit in the trust office, I go and visit schools, but I'm not doing the job day in, day out, and I don't always understand the impact of decisions at certain levels. So, really, I need to talk to the people that whatever we're thinking about changing or doing impacts on, so that I can understand that and give them the agency to go, we think doing it like this would be better because I I think I know, but I haven't been a head teacher for quite a few years, and you do lose touch with the reality of the day job.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there's a a theory for for through for leadership called the Hertzberg's two-factor theory, and it's a fascinating one, but he kind of alludes to that, and there's elements of it that are quite quite old in its way. I think it's from the 60s or 70s. He kind of developed it with uh for for Ford in in America, and it was about how people are motivated. And he suggests that giving someone something doesn't motivate them, give them money, give them whatever it may tangible items that that's not a thing, it's carrot and stick, really. So, what actually motivates people are exactly that feeling valued, your boss coming to talk to you, being given like meaningful work, being given like clarity and feedback, and that's that was a really interesting kind of analysis we've done a few years ago on that.
SPEAKER_01Again, this is some work that I've done with uh the leaders, just start from a baseline of nobody comes to work to do a bad job, yeah, nobody sits on the car park and goes, right, when I go in today, I'm gonna drop the ball, I'm gonna not answer email, I'm gonna be rubbish all day. Nobody does that, and when you come at it from that point of view, you do start to see people differently. And what strikes me, and I think perhaps using LinkedIn has really brought this to the fore, just how many brilliant people work in this trust. You know, I turn around and I'm people are blowing me away all the time, and that's great to celebrate and share, isn't it? And then coming back to the idea of um decision making at the point of information, it's that unintended consequences I think that I've learned that you go, right, we're gonna do something this way, and I know what I'm doing, and I've done it before in a school, so we're gonna do it in eight schools now, and then it goes horribly wrong in some places because it's not right, because you haven't listened to people, and you didn't intend for that to happen. You had marvellous intentions, but if you don't listen and consult and talk and understand, it can go quite terribly wrong, can't it? Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Mentioned before that you thrive in crisis, and wrote that down because that's quite rare, but it's definitely something, certainly at the level you are, that you have to be adapted that because it's going to happen ultimately. But but it when it happens, it's about the having the ability to thrive. Yeah, so where's that from?
SPEAKER_01I don't know, to be honest. Um, it's a really good question to where it comes from. And if I think about me and my sister, we're quite different. Um, my sister's quite a bit older than me, so we had quite different upbringings in some ways. Um, my sister was raised with a mum and a dad and a brother. Um, my father died when I was three, so I was raised by a single mother, working parent, etc. But she's excellent if you go. So um, one of the I guess defining um elements of my life was my brother had cancer and died at age 51. Um, and through his treatment, she was the one day in, day out, researching long haul stuff, you know, by his side, taking me to appointments. I work, so that was more. Difficult when there were times when he was really poorly and it needed straight to hospital sorting out, getting this in place, get that's where I were coming to the fore. So it works really well together. She would say she let me do that, but I think it's because we're quite different. So, and there's real strengths in each, isn't there? You couldn't have if she hadn't done what she did, yeah, and my brother would never have had the time he had.
SPEAKER_02Sure.
SPEAKER_01If I didn't do what I did, we wouldn't have got through the tough times at the end. Yeah, so I don't know where it came from. I think it's just automatically I've fallen into that, and if I'm professionally, um I feel quite confident and comfortable. Touch wood now, in case I'm joking it, that no matter what hits us, we can sort it because of the people I've got around me, because I think I can keep a cool head in those circumstances, yeah, and we'll deal with it. Um and in some ways, maybe that's why people forgive if I don't know something, because they know at the end of the day we call it safety nets in the trust. I'm a good safety net if there is something somebody's struggling with or just does not know what to do next. I know that they can come to me and I'll provide a safety net.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Whereas longer term, I may say, well, go and ask them, or try this. I don't know. So maybe that's the balance.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Yeah. So I take it then, childhood must have been fairly challenging. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it was fairly challenging. Obviously, dad passing away at such a young age. Um, what do you think that had a or it's obviously had some form of effect in whatever way it may be because it was your upbringing, but uh what effect do you think that had in relation to you know where you are now?
SPEAKER_01Uh at the time I don't ever recall thinking my childhood was challenging, but on reflection, it must have been um because um you know my mum um was a working parent, we didn't come from a family that had a lot of money. Um, my wider family, um, my grandparents came from Ireland, um, very poor. My mum talks about having holes in her shoes when she was little and things. Now I never experienced that. But the influence of my mum on who I am, I think, has been absolutely massive because what she did for me was day in, day out, I saw a woman that, regardless of what challenges she was going through with a three-year-old and two teenagers, was up every day and never saw her not dressed, and the house was never in a mess. She went to work. She we I never felt I went without. There were things I couldn't do. Yeah, I couldn't always have a bike when I wanted one, but you know, I never went without anything, and we were really close and tight as a family and surrounded by love. So I think maybe because I saw her working hard striving, it's just something that I do because I emulate that from being a child, that's what I saw.
SPEAKER_00Any of your values that your mum have and see yours see yourself in her?
SPEAKER_01Resilient is a word that I'd absolutely use to describe my mum, and I think I've got both natural resilience because I've seen that and lived that, yeah, and then had some experience myself which developed that.
SPEAKER_02Exactly.
SPEAKER_01Um, but she's very much about honesty, integrity, resilience, work hard, um, be truthful, always pay your mortgage first, you know. She's she's never been in debt or anything like that. So I think it's just without consciously knowing it at the time, things that you're surrounded by influence your character, don't you?
SPEAKER_00Absolutely, 100%. So, did you find a love for being in school at a really young age, or is that something that came later in life?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, always. Um, and it's always something that um my mum has been very clear that it's important.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I'm the first in my family to go and get a degree and have a a career like this. But for me, it was always when you're going to university, I want you to go to university. Whereas that hadn't been a consideration for my brother and sister who were 15, 16 years older. But for me, and I don't know what brought that out of my mum. Um, I loved school, I love always have loved learning. I'm the person that at uni would be in the library at 10 o'clock at the night, not wanting to be kicked out.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, so it's just something that I've I love reading. Um, and when I was very young, we always played school, I was always the teacher, so I think that was bound to happen potentially at some point. Um, but it's I think I've been surrounded by voices saying education's important, and then I found it's something that I just really love.
SPEAKER_00Right. So were you in secondary school when you realised that you probably wanted to be a teacher?
SPEAKER_01No, not at all. Okay. Um no, through secondary school, I actually um so English is my subject, I wanted to be a journalist. Okay, um, and I went to a school locally in Stoke on Trent, and the careers education at the time was a little bit interesting, let's say. So I was told if you want to be a journalist, go and get a job as a secretary at the evening sentinel, and you'll get into it that way. Degrees weren't even discussed at my school, so I did. I got a secretarial qualification, went for an interview at the Sentinel, and they laughed me out of the building when they said, Why do you want the job? Because I want to be a journalist. They were like, Yeah, go and get an English degree for a start. So I became a secretary for a couple of years, but it just wasn't fulfilling and I didn't know what to do. And then um, a very good friend of mine one day we went for a drink, and she said, I've got to tell you something, I'm going to uni. I was working at the uni as a um personal assistant at the time, and I'm going to be a teacher. And it made me go, I remember going, I want to do that, and it was almost like a what have I been doing all my life.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Without realizing it, I'd given up on something or not even thought about something that actually I was passionate about. So as I started to look into it then, it became this is my absolute passion, and I need to do it.
SPEAKER_00So then you went to university, qualified as a teacher, and that's that's something that you've done since. Yes. You've always been in the education space. Yes. So looking at your early days of teaching, was it um it was it vastly different then to what it is now? Totally. Right. In what way? What's the kind of different what are the key differences?
SPEAKER_01I feel now education is all about what are the what's the data on the paper tell you, what's that, and that you're constantly having to prove that you're working towards that. And I do feel really, really sorry for senior leaders in school these days because staff in schools feel like it's them, right? They're monitoring me, they're asking me to do this, they're challenging me over that. But it's the bigger education system that forces people into that, and I think people respond how they think best. And you do have situations where monitoring is too excessive and doesn't need to be that, but that's because people want to do the job right, yeah. Um, and you know, when I started teaching, I worked in a school in Dorset on the South Coast, and on a sunny day, we'd go, come on, kids, and we'd go outside in the grounds and sit and just read poetry just because it was great, yeah, yeah. Um, or go into the woods and perform at Beth because it was a bit autumny, yeah. Whereas now it would be, well, what's the objective and have you planned for it and where does it fit into the scheme of work? So it's become less of an art and more of a science, I think, and probably the balance has shifted a little bit too much because the great thing about teachers and education support staff is their commitment and their creativity and their love for kids. Yeah, and kids don't need rigour every minute of every day, do they?
SPEAKER_00But if someone's bought into being in the education space, they really have been through the PGCE, they're in front of the class now, and their assumption is um of Matilda, I forgot her name, Miss Honey. Yeah, to have a kind of a life as a teacher like that, uh, and it just isn't the case nowadays, it must be so tough for them to uh to swallow.
SPEAKER_01I think it depends in on the school that you're in.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01And if you're in the right school, yeah, you can have creativity and flexibility within a framework. And you know, I remember being a teacher, and I'd love I remember stumbling across a task called flower babies for year eight. Um, and in it's about um teaching about teaching year eight students what it would be like to have a child and the responsibilities. I don't, you know, I want the kids made flower babies and I made them carry them around school for two weeks. And if you're flower baby, other teachers would say I need to report this child because their flower babies being left to the side while they were playing football. So there's loads of great things, but we had so much fun. The head teacher wasn't too happy when there was flower everywhere, right? But it was an exciting part of being a teacher to go, oh, this could be great and just go a bit crazy with it and not have to structure that in a way. The learning was happening, and the children have always done really well, but it wasn't all paper-based, it was creative and enjoyment, and and then pulling the language out of that, and it was amazing.
SPEAKER_00And when you've got that many staff, Gary as well. I imagine you've got so many voices, and I suppose that's culture, right? Within any organization, that if you you could have anyone of of any status, any job role that's got something about them or an interest, a hobby, to to have your your voice heard and not thinking, I'm not gonna say that because it'll sound silly, or I'm not gonna say that because they'll just say no. I think being in a an o any organisation, but an organization like you've got you know you've created um where people's voice is heard and they can come to you and say, I want an allotment, or I want to bid money for for X, Y, and Z, I think it's uh it's really important.
SPEAKER_01And that's culture because you have to breed that. So we had um 28 applications this time. Um, I've no doubt now we've publicised what we're funding, next time we'll get 50.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01Because people go, ah, so they hear about it and think, yeah, well, you know, a bit skeptical maybe. But then when they see it happening, you have to put your money where your mouth is, don't you? Yeah, um, and we did a whole staff survey in the um end of the summer term, and one of the things that came through from staff, we did staff parents, students, right? But one of the things that came back from staff was where's the feedback? So you do surveys, so what? We get feedback in our individual school, but what about you as a trust? Okay, and one of the things I'm really passionate about is what I call the trust dividend. So, what do you get over and above your job in the school because you're not only part of a multi-academy trust, but you're part of this multi-academy trust and want that to mean something to people.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So we've started a campaign of you said we listened, and half-termly the staff get um a newsletter. We've just started this last half term that says this is some of the things the survey said, these are some of the comments you made, and this is what we're doing about it. And we'll we've got a programme over the year that will pick up different elements that we can say to people, look, we are listening, yeah, and some of the things that come out of it's been absolutely brilliant. Yeah, yeah, um, how we communicate the regularity, what's going on. So you mentioned get set go. Yeah, I did a load of staff voice um and student voice in the summer term last year. Now I'm passionate about get set go. It was my baby, I brought it here, we started doing it, it's brilliant. I thought we publicised it. Some of them would go, get set what?
SPEAKER_03Right. What was that?
SPEAKER_01Oh, that when you did that. So it makes you go, actually, we're not doing well enough on that. We're missing opportunities, but I wouldn't know that had I not been told it. Yeah. And being willing to go, do you know what? You're right, let's do something. Yeah. Not feel criticised.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01The fact that somebody had said it. And the more you listen, and the more people criticise you or offer suggestions and see you listening, the more that becomes the culture, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_00100%. Who who stands out, Carrie? Have you had a leader in in your life that you've either worked with for or even alongside? Is there any particular people that have helped you on your journey to get to where you are?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, very much so. So when I um worked at a secondary school in Stoke under a head teacher, I was assistant head and then deputy head, um, he was quite unique as a leader. He was very bold as brass.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Um, he had expectations and you met those expectations. But what he did listen to people, and what he did was I guess he recognised in me that I did want to progress and perhaps recognise some skills or traits that he believed in me. So he went out of his way to give me experiences that would help me move on. So in my when I stepped into headship and I credit him with this, it wasn't a frightening step. I didn't know it all by any stretch, but I'd been in charge of pastoral and behaviour, I'd been in charge of academic and outcomes, I'd done some safeguarding. So I felt really well prepared because I'd had a range of things to be able to develop and understand. Because I think the worst, no, not the worst, the most challenging thing as a leader is stepping into a job where you don't have any understanding of elements of it. So, you know, things for me like finance, crikey, that's the scary one, it's numbers, which I don't do.
SPEAKER_00But you've got a great CFO though, right? Brilliant CFO.
SPEAKER_01But in this trust, um the CFO had left and it needed some cover, and I was asked to step up and be CFO for nearly half a term, frightened the life out of me. The learning was incredible, but the team around me at the trust every day went out to their way to go, shall I explain it to you? Shall I tell you about that? And I didn't feel worried about saying, Do you know what? I don't get this. Yeah, so I think I've had that a number of times, and and maybe that's why I am how I am about giving people support and putting them out the comfort zones, but helping them and you know, giving broad experiences. But the greatest thing that head teacher did for me, I think, not at the time, I'd been in my first headship for about a month, six weeks, yeah. And he rang me and said, How are you getting on? I said, Oh, yeah, it's tough, but you know, it was a challenging school. I said, He said, Oh, should we have a coffee sometime? That would be lovely. I said, In fact, can we do it soon? Because I've got a couple of things, ideas, and decisions I need to make, and I wouldn't mind running it past you. And I remember the words, he said, Absolutely not, you wanted the job, so get on and do it, ring me in six months. And he put the phone down on me. And at the time I was like, Oh, you said you'd always happen, but he understood that I knew what I was doing, yeah. I just needed the confidence, and you only get that by doing it.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01So I felt a bit cut adrift, but it was the best thing, or else I think I'd have always been ringing him.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, true.
SPEAKER_01And my husband said at the time, just think to yourself, what would he have done? What would Richard have said? What would Richard have done? And that will guide you because you believe in him as to what the decisions you're making, and confidence-wise, it was 100%.
SPEAKER_00It's important to have them rocks, isn't it? Those things to kind of think back on. What would he do? What would what would she have said? And sometimes you might be wildly wrong and think, yeah, they would have done that, and he wouldn't have done that, it would have gone the opposite way. But it's interesting you mentioned finance because I listened a while ago. I think it was on a high performance podcast. Um, and it with Jake Humphreys, but really, really great podcast. And he was talking, there was a guy on there talking about finance, and he gave a story about Richard Bronson. You've probably heard the story before, right? When he was in a board meeting, and and he was 51 at the time, so a billionaire. Um, and they were talking through a PL, uh, and his one of the finance teams talking to one side afterwards and said, You don't know the differences between net and gross profit, do you? And he said, No. And he'd drawn him a picture and gave it to him, and he said, There was a 51-year-old multi-billionaire that run virgin, uh and this huge tens of thousands of staff and billions of pounds, but didn't know the most basic principle. And I think that's that's kind of there's something really lovely about that. And I think Richard's an amazing example of someone who's kind of took things to quite an extreme length of empowering his team, and he's just kind of the face of the brand, and everyone else can kind of yeah, lead the organisation alongside him.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but I think the key thing is the response of the people around you, isn't it? Yeah. So when I needed some um finance information, and it was going to take a few hours for the team to get all the ducks in a row and get the exact figure, and I thought, I'm sure I can work this out broadly. So I had a go, and when the team came back, we were a few pounds apart, and I was so chuffed that I'd worked out that I got a star of the week framed from finance and they celebrated that I'd done it. Now, it was the reason it took them so long is they needed to go into the system and get all the accurate information. Whereas I was doing broad brush strokes, if it's this, it's this. But it was a real celebration from them that gave me some confidence and made me really value what I'd achieved. Yeah, because actually it made me go, I can do it, I'm not stupid. Because I've always had to think about maths not being my thing.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01English, any day of the week, maths not, and finance is maths, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00It ultimately, yeah.
SPEAKER_01But it just as well shows if you are appreciative of people who go, I don't know, that builds your confidence to say I don't know. But it also makes them feel great because you know they realise their excellence and their strengths, don't they?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, without.
SPEAKER_01Don't ask me about profit and loss, balance sheets, accruals, they use all these terms.
SPEAKER_00So then your leadership journey, Kerry. So you for I say you're an assistant head, deputy, head teacher, but says you've pretty much done every role. Is the role in particular that was the you learnt the most in about yourself or about leadership? Was the one in particular that that stands out?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um, I went to New Zealand on an um exchange for 12 months.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Um, and I was ahead of English and went over as um no they'd uplifted somebody because obviously it's very different in New Zealand. I think I learnt the most there because it was hard. Um the school was a very, very competitive private school.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01And I met some incredible people that without those people my time out there would have well, it would have ended within a month, I'm sure. Um but I had to, I was on my own, so I had to as an adult go out and make some friends, join a cookery class, go to an opera. You know, it's I could I think what I learned about myself there is I will make the most of any situation that I can. So I wanted to sit at home every night and cry and ring my mum, um, but I didn't. I sort of went, right, what have I not done? I I bought a car and went and did a little bit of travelling and things, but professionally it wasn't necessarily a place where um work was shared, it was that's mine, and I've done it. Yeah, the kids were amazing, really different because their education experience is very different, very outdoorsy, very relaxed. But I learned that I can adapt to situations and that I think I've got some value to add to situations to varying degrees, depending on what the situation is. Yeah, um, but I really at the time I found it very, very hard out there. But when I look back, I'm so glad that I had the experience because I think I grew as a person and professionally out there, yeah. And so that was that was great. But all the roles I've been in and responsible for I've loved. Right. We um had or have an institute of education here that was quite small, and one of my roles when I stepped into the trust was breeding that. Now that was just amazing, and it was very successful. It was actually very successful because of COVID. Oh, okay, because you've got a massive trust. How do you bring people together? How do you networks? Well, people were isolated, and we've got teams, this great thing online all of a sudden, so it enabled the situation, it enabled me to reach out to more people, to connect more people, to put things on for more people, and then it's grown since that foundation in different ways. But I loved that. I remember when I was asked to do the job, I was like, I don't know anything about teacher training as such or professional development. I've never done anything like this, but I'll give it a go. And it was it was great. I loved it, I really loved it.
SPEAKER_00So it sounds like you to go back to the New Zealand piece. I suppose it's being comfortable with being uncomfortable, yeah, and that's where character really kind of grows, isn't it? About stretching yourself and and testing yourself. Yeah, and I think that's what uh you know your trust are doing with young people, giving themselves or giving them opportunity to to do exactly that, to do things that are out of their comfort zone and feel uncomfortable, or even feel you know, feel like nervous or anxious or upset or very you know, those feelings are really really critical to give them the opportunity to do, and it's a choice, and I think until you understand it's a choice, you are just automatically doing things.
SPEAKER_01But when you realise whatever situation you're in, how you respond is your choice, that's a defining moment as well, isn't it? Because you realised, you know what, I've been through that, so New Zealand. I did go and try lots of different things and make some new friends, and I've sailed over to a place called Great Barrier Island, and that I'd never done it on a proper sailboat. I was at the helm when you know they tip, don't they? They frighten the life out of me. Um, but you realise you can do more than you think, yeah, and that I was brought up in a very um small town, really, Stoke on Trent, very industrial, um quite economically challenged in many ways. So to find myself on a sailboat in the middle of the ocean over in New Zealand on my own, it's stuff that I never would have dreamed I could do, but I could choose to stay home, or I could choose, and sometimes I choose things and then realise after what I've actually chosen, I don't think it through, and then I go, ah, but I think that's part of the excitement, isn't it? Because how am I going to deal with this situation?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Uh and And do you look back at any um pivotal moments, Kerry, since that's between a headteacher and where you are now, any pivotal moments of like huge growth, or was there any opportunities or experiences you had since becoming a CEO that have been quite pivotal for you?
SPEAKER_01Um professionally, I think it's been steady development and having to deal with situations and circumstances as they come along, and then reinforcing that I'm good at a time of crisis mentality. Um my most growth in that period has become personally really, but I think that's probably impacted on my professional life. Um, so I had two quite significant health issues in that the week before we went into lockdown, I cleverly fell down the stairs and broke my leg. So I spent lockdown everyone else's time decorating my house and baking cakes. I was sat on the sofa with my leg up in plaster, um, and that was really hard because it was um a very bad break and a dislocation of my ankle.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01And the surgeon said you'll never walk properly again. Um, you're always going to have this limp and this problem because it's so significant, and I've got 15 screws and pins and everything. You wouldn't know I'd done that now when I walk. Um, because I think I just didn't accept it. I just went, I don't want that to be my life. So I worked and worked and worked, and it's it's worked out well.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Um, but that was hard at the time because I'm not a person that sits still and just does nothing. I'd like, you know, sort something out, and it it made me sit and think. Um, and we were going through COVID, and that was a time of crisis, wasn't it? So I'm all over that. I'll sort that, I'll write that, I'll do it. And I was leading two schools at the time. I'll do the rotor, I'll sort this.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01But then 12 months later, I was diagnosed with breast cancer.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and I'm absolutely fine. It was a surgery, removed it, no chemo, absolutely fine. But it wasn't the um the diagnosis and the treatment that helped me grow, it was the aftermath. Okay, so through it all, again, time of crisis, head in the game, sort it out what we're doing, but afterwards, the emotional trauma of realising what you've been through and what could happen really stopped me in my tracks and made me re-prioritise life. Um, I mean, my husband and son are just incredible. You know, I've been so fortunate to have a career that I've had, and I would not have been able to do it without them. So my husband did the school runs, I could be at school till nine o'clock at night. And there are key moments where I go, that's not how I want my life to be. So through this, it made me go. My job is very demanding, but I love my job, and quite often my job is my hobby, so I don't mind at night if I'm working on a project, it's not work, it's because I want to get that plan done or think about that. But actually, it can become so overwhelming and all-encompassing. And when it's like that, because of stress and pressure, it's wrong, yeah, and you have to address that. So I think it made me re-evaluate my priorities in my life, it made me probably reflect on myself as a person, and I I guess part of the drive historically in my career and personally has been, I think I probably always felt like I've got something to prove.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Got to make the next step.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01And people would go, Oh, you're brilliant. And I'd always go in my head, I'd go, Yeah, but I wouldn't necessarily believe it. And through some counselling and therapy that I had to help me cope with what I'd been through, I realised I think there was a defining moment where the um the lady had said to me, Use this object to define success, place it somewhere in the room. And I placed it, not thinking, right over there. And we talked about success always feels like it's out of my reach. And by the end of it, success, I just said to it, I'm already successful. Yeah, and it was a big realization of actually, I don't have to prove anything because if I'm happy with what I'm doing and where I am, yeah, so what? Don't matter, does it? Yeah, but it wasn't without going through all that health adversity that I got the point because I believe you end up where you're meant to be. Um, and one of the questions towards the end is about a message to yourself as a child, isn't it? So you don't want to ruin that, but it's very much about it will all work out, you'll end up where you're meant to be.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Um, so through those adverse health experiences, I'm really happy with my life. I'm happy professionally. Yeah, again, touch ward, don't want to jinx it. I'm happy personally. Um, but all those adverse experiences have led to this point, right? So I'm who I am because of those sorts of things.
SPEAKER_00What I do notice in the education spaces, people do go above and beyond the lot in a lot of different ways, one of which is working hours, which I don't think is something that's um very comfortable. I think they should, you know, do what they feel is appropriate, not what they think you know, to be in judged on. What are some things you think uh leaders need to look out for uh in relation to to making sure that's that's kept in a straight line?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it's a it's an issue we've got, um, and it's an issue I don't like. And if one of the legacies of me leading this trust is that we get a better, they call it work-life balance, don't they? But that's that doesn't mean to say 50-50. So for me, probably 70-30 work is right because it's my hobby as well, but for other people it might need to be the other way around. Um, and I'm really uh interested in understanding why people work how they do, and I think firstly, when you're not sure how to do something, you mistake busyness for being effective because I'm busy, I'm doing it, so it must be and also this idea that it's gotta be now, it's gotta be now, what's the next thing? Because in education, 12 months in a child's life is significant, isn't it? And we can get on a treadmill of it's gotta be now, it's gotta be done. Um, and one of my key things has been stop because it's much better to do two or three things really well, nail them down so you can go there done and sorted now. What do we need to do next? Rather than I'll do that, I'll do that, I'll do that, I'll do that, and then you're having to come back because something's not quite right or it's not embedded, or let's change what we're doing is a great thing in education. So we've spent all this time designing a behaviour policy, we'll put it in place. It's staff are complaining, it's not quite working. Instead, are going, where is it working? Which bits are going well? How can we tweak, stick to what you know is right? We change and that causes untold stress for everybody, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I think it's the I think we need to step back, slow down. We've got a five-year plan now, right? Because I'm really comfortable with going, do you know what? We're not doing that this year, but it's important, it's really important, but I want to get this right first. So I've said we we've got one-year plans in place now, but we've got a five-year plan where people have gone, I'm gonna do that in year four. Right. Do you know what? That's great because I know it's coming.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Not trying to do something, do something, do something, because that that's burnout, isn't it? Yeah, but it's so hard. So I'm really conscious about demonstrating and role modelling that to my colleagues. So I'm somebody I tend to wake up in the middle of the night, right? And old Kerry before taking on this role would have emailed you at 3am.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Not because I expect you to read it, but I'm up and working, and I didn't realise the impact that that has on some people because they see it as do you expect me to work like that? Are you stressed? What's so I purposely don't do anything like that, but I'm trying to role model and challenge the frenetic work pace that people are going at, but it's hard because they go, Yeah, you're right, and then they carry on as they always have. Yeah, and this is a long-term project because it starts with me, but then I need my chief officers operating in that way so that they impact on their teams, and then the heads need to operate in this way, and we all want the best for children so so much that we will go over and above every single day, yeah, but it shouldn't cost you your life in your relationships.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, completely candy with you. I find that hard as well. I think I've got an idea, or there's there's an issue, we've got a potential solution for it, but it's another project, yeah, it's another thing, and it ends up instead of having, like you're suggesting, four or five brilliant things going on, you end up with 12 average ones. Yeah, um, but that's a bold move, isn't it? To kind of prioritize that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it is, and I will say to people, Well, why have you put that time pressure on yourself? Why have you got to do it before Christmas? I've had a conversation this morning. Can I just talk to you? So, this idea of safety nets we use a lot. So, you know, don't go home to your partner and I've had a bad day and I don't know what to tell somebody at work that can make the difference, and that's okay. I've been in situations where I've been completely overwhelmed and not knowing what to do. You need to tell people, I've done this and it's gone horribly wrong. Do you know what? I'll safety net you then. Let's get you not hope they don't find out. So we we talk about these safety nets, and you're much more effective as a leader if you've got space in your brain, and busyness is the destroyer of any strategic decision making or thinking, and I think you can cope better when the curveball phone call comes if you're not already in a heightened state of anxiety and stress, yeah. But if you've got time, you know, we have things around our um ELT, the executive leadership team, that have been on the agenda for weeks and months and we still haven't made a decision because every time we come to make the decision, we go, we need some more information, or we're not sure, or right, let's just park it for a few weeks. Because I'm not interested in fast results that are not sustainable results. Yeah, I'm interested in I very, very much believe the people I work with are at the top of their game in their fields and they know what they're doing. So I've got to create the space around them to be able to get out of their brain the best thinking. Yeah, and the only way I can do that is if they're not running around left, right, and centre. And what's in your diary? When was the last time you were in a school? Why aren't we planning for that? You know, I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in what circumstances do you need. Yeah, some of my team are really good at right, I'm gonna put a day in my diary, I'm gonna work from home, gonna do nothing else, I'm just gonna think. Yeah, and then other people will go, no, because my inspiration hits me at random times, I can't plan for it like that. So I have to go, right, your inspiration's coming, isn't it? Go home, go forget the day, we'll pick that up. Yeah, so um, but it is hard because there is a the narrative around education is working hard, working fast, doing more, getting done now, and I'm I want to change that because I don't think it's effective.
SPEAKER_00Creativity is right at the core of education. I think if you've got too much going on, you're exactly right. Because I suppose even outside of education, running businesses or doing anything, if you've got so much happening, yeah, and it's a list of things going on, and I suppose some people might just keep busy for busy's sake because it keeps their mind occupied. There's lack of creativity there, there's lack of development there, and I haven't got it cracked myself.
SPEAKER_01You know, I've sitting here talking about it, is there why I operate like this all the time? Which I don't, and I'm very open. I do a CEO message out to our heads every week, and I remember one a couple of weeks ago, and I put I've blown it this week, guys. Yeah, I haven't planned properly, I didn't put the time aside I needed for this, so I felt on the back hoof, yeah, I've felt overwhelmed because do you know that's okay to feel like that, but I'm committed to not letting that happen as the general how I work, yeah, yeah. Um, and sometimes sharing that with people I think is really important because they'll go, yeah, I I've been doing that really. Yeah, you know. Yeah, people forget that they are in charge of their time. So if I am cramming meetings in my diaries, that's my decision to do that. So now often I will say, Yeah, but I can't meet you for three weeks.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because if I'm gonna squeeze in a meeting with you, it means I can't do that school visit that I planned or that looking at the data that I wanted to do, and where is the balance across your day? So we've talked about John Murphy, yeah, yeah, who everybody in education knows and loves. Um, but one of the greatest things he did for me was he taught me how to structure my diary of important things so that they're always in there. It's time blocking really. But where are my school visits going to be? Thursday is my meeting day, and if somebody can't make the Thursday, well, it has to be the following Thursday. I'm protecting my time. And the phrase he used was he said, You are not the most important in the person in the organisation, but you are the person that can make the greatest difference, right? And that really struck home for me because I thought, what difference am I making if I'm accommodating your needs all the time in terms of my diary and not thinking how do I need to be effective in my role?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's a great bit of advice, right?
SPEAKER_01Great piece of advice, yeah. Really great piece of advice. Yeah, he's full of them, isn't he? Yes, I could write a book. You should, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So if you round back the clock to um, I suppose when you first found the love for education when you were in school, is there any advice about character? Not necessarily to to be one day be a CEO, but just to thrive in life that you would give yourself some some advice on?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think we spend so much time worrying about what might happen. And I and I I talk quotes. My son always says, Mother, I feel like you're a walking quote, but that you're hoping one day it will sink in and I'll remember things. Um, but there's a quote that says, Not all storms come to disrupt your life, some come to clear your path.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01And I think I now I came across that when I was going through my treatment, um, and it made me go, do you know what? It's how you view things, isn't it? So I can see this as the worst disaster in my life that's going to ruin it forever. Or I can go, what can come out of this that can help me? So wherever you are and whatever challenges you're going through, and I'm aware challenges are very different for different people, but if you can maybe trust, and this is the biggest thing, yeah, everything will be okay. Trust that you're on the path that you're meant to be on, trust that experiences come to teach you and to help you grow and to prove to you that you can. And if you can have that sort of mindset, then as hard as it is at the time, whatever comes through the door, you can deal with.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I think for those that go through whether challenging times or defining you know life hard in general, it's quite hard to see any clarity, isn't it? It's quite hard to see that that kind of like fog that's in front of you, or the storm that you alluded to before.
SPEAKER_01It's a really kind of challenging when I went through the aftermath of my cancer diagnosis. I I didn't know if I could ever come back. Right. Um, so um my boss at the time said to me, 'Look, just come into a meeting at work, just stay for an hour, see people that care about you, come and have a coffee.' And I remember looking through the glass panel and thinking, 'I don't know if I can walk into that room.' Right. And I sat in the meeting and I felt like I was tiny. Physically, I felt withdrawn. And afterwards, she said, You know, are you okay? And I cried, and I don't cry particularly. Um, and I cried, and I went home and I thought, I don't know if I can ever come back. And to go from that feeling then to where I am now, and thinking I could have chosen to walk away at that point, but I didn't, it gives me great pride that I've made it through, but also you see examples of that everywhere. People that have been through the most awful situations, but do come out of it and do find strength and do excel in the future, yeah. And you know, there's things in my future I'm not aware of that will come and hit, and hopefully, I can hold on to this to get me through those times. But I think that's what character is, isn't it? That's what builds you, that's what moulds you, and that's what dictates how you are and who you are.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And did you say there was therapy to support Carida? Did you get some throughout that journey? Yeah. What was it you took from that? Because a lot of people have been on the podcast, I think pretty much everybody that's been on the podcast, and this isn't by design, by the way, has had some form of therapy to go through circumstances in life, and that's been really refreshing to hear that we've got people like yourself and amazing leaders who are just very honest and open that this is this is what life is.
SPEAKER_01I think people can see therapy as you need it because you're failing, and it's not that at all. And what I guess amazed me when I reflect on that therapy journey, I went into it to help me deal with the aftermath of my cancer treatment and how I was feeling really broken and emotionally just done. But actually, a lot of the things that we talked about and went through were nothing to do with that, and I think what I realized was that was almost a symptom of other baggage I was carrying that like the you know, success is always out of my reach, got to got to look forward at that. Um, this not believing in yourself, doubting yourself, it's called imposter syndrome, isn't it? That sort of thing. Unpicking all that on the journey, I think going into therapy thinking we're gonna deal with this is you won't, yeah. Yeah, that will be dealt with, but you'll go all around this to get to that point, and that was life-changing for me. So something that if people are thinking about it, yeah, absolutely get the right person, that's key, but absolutely do it. Awesome.
SPEAKER_00Kerry, thanks so much. It's been brilliant to have you on. Uh, and where can people find out more about you and the trust as well, Kerry? If someone's interested about Shaw or yourself, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So um Shaw Education Trust, um, we're online, we've got a great social media presence as well as our website. Um, me, um, you can Google my name, Kerry Insker, because I'm the only one. So you'll see I won a £500-pound check from a caravan club about 10 years ago. That follows me wherever I go. Um, but yeah, follow me on LinkedIn potentially. You'll you'll hear a lot about our schools and and the people that we work with. But um, yeah, I'm really open to you know putting new partnerships, meeting new people. Um, so anybody that wants to reach out to us, please do.
SPEAKER_00Awesome, Kerry. Thanks so much. The work that goes on at Shaw is is genuinely fascinating. So, for those trusts and schools that are out there at the moment that want to know any more about what Get Set Go is, please again feel free to reach out. And obviously, what Kerry's doing in terms of the world of Send and kind of being at the forefront of Send education is genuinely fascinating. So, please feel free to reach out and Kerry. Hope to chat soon. Thanks so much for your time.
SPEAKER_01No, thank you.
SPEAKER_00Thank you very much.