15. The Pros and Cons of Training and Skills Development for Neurodivergent Business Owners

In this episode of Wildly Intentional, Flick and Verity explore the reality of training, learning and personal development as neurodivergent business owners — particularly when navigating ADHD.

From traditional training environments to modern online spaces, they unpack what works, what doesn’t, and why not all learning experiences are created equally. Flick shares a recent (and frustrating) experience that highlights just how easily training can miss the mark when inclusivity isn’t considered.

Verity brings her coaching perspective into the conversation, sharing how she intentionally creates supportive, flexible and inclusive spaces for her clients — and why that approach matters so much for confidence, growth and real results.

This is an honest, eye-opening discussion about adapting the way we learn, challenging one-size-fits-all approaches, and recognising that the right environment can make all the difference.

 Subscribe to Wildly Intentional for weekly bold conversations on business growth, mindset and building a business that actually works for you. 

Come and say "hello" to us online - you can find Wildly Intentional Podcast on Facebook and Instagram.

Don't forget to join us in our Facebook Group to continue the conversation and let us know your thoughts on this episode and if you have ever felt the same as we do here.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Wildly Intentional, the podcast for business owners who refuse to play small.

SPEAKER_00 0:05

This is where we have bold talk, honest conversations, and dig into what it really takes to create big breakthroughs in business and life. And we're here to share the lessons, the mindset shifts, and the unapologetic decisions that helped us to level up.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

So if you're ambitious, growth focused, and ready to do business on your own terms. Thank you in the right place. Let's get wildly intentional. Oh, you did something different. I did something different. I thought I'd like to do that. Welcome people to the podcasts rather than just hello, this is us.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

Yeah. I don't go with the usual hi.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Well, we don't know if people are going to be joining us at this episode or whether or not they're going to listen to the back catalogue. And I was like, I was listening, I was listening to our podcast the other day and I was like, we just say hello, or as other people sort of re-welcome people. I know our intro welcomes people.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

Yeah. Well, welcome, new people and old, and who whoever has joined us today, welcome to Wildly Intentional. Well, that was that was very formal. It was very formal. I've been in a very formal setting all day.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

You you put on your posh phone voice then of like hello and welcome. It's Verity and Flick.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

Sort of like it was very As if I'm not like that anyway. Don't try and say I'm not posh.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

You okay? I'm not too bad. I'm not too bad. It's been it's been a week. Um why is it a week? Well, we're recording this on a Thursday, which is unusual for us. We normally start the week with our recordings.

SPEAKER_00 1:49

Um and in the evening, which is really unusual.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

Yeah, yeah. So caffeine has definitely affected my brain. Whether I'm going through a caffeine slump now, I don't know. We'll find out. We'll find out as we talk about this topic because I've got a feeling this is gonna really invigorate us.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

It could do. I'm yawning, I'm sat here yawning, right? I've been in class all day, so I am absolutely my brain is is just like it's not braining anymore. But we've chosen a topic that could really is either gonna just I'm not gonna find the enthusiasm because I live the and breathe this day in, day out, or it's gonna spark something and suddenly I'm gonna wake up. So let's see how it goes.

unknown 2:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

So how's your week up been? Well, I was gonna say, how's your week been first? Because you've asked me how mine is. It's very rude of me not to ask you how yours is.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

Yeah, it's been all right actually, I think. I can't really remember. I I know what I did today, I'm not sure what I've done for the rest of the week. I've been it's been a busy week. I know that there's been a lot happening this week. I haven't really stopped. Um yeah, I think I'm still in the adjustment period of the the employment. I'm like three months in and I'm still adjusting, but it's all good. I've got serious structure in my life. I know what I'm doing. Well, I pretend I know what I'm doing. I do know what I'm doing just in case anybody's listening. Yeah, no, it's it's good. It's been a busy week. I can't remember what I did at the weekend, so don't ask me that. I don't think I did a lot. Was it Easter? Was it Easter last weekend? Yeah, the weekend just gone, no. Oh. Um I honestly I don't know. I can't think that far back. I genuinely have no idea beyond this morning what I've done.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

I love that you're you're very much in that that proper ADHD mode of like I need structure, but when I have structure, it completely frazzles my brain. Yeah, completely. Um I reckon our listeners can definitely hear the the frazzledness in you. So let's talk about what we're gonna talk about today and see if we can we can wake up Verity and today.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

So, do you want to? Well, then we start because we well, we're basing this on your experience because you had a right old rant to me earlier in the week.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

I did at the weekend. So we're gonna be talking about the pros and cons of training and skills development as a neurodivergent business owner. So, listeners who've been listening for um a long time know the fact that Varity does training and has her ADHD diagnosis. I offer training and coaching within my business, and I'm I still haven't taken the paperwork down to the doctors.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

Don't shout at me. There's procrastination and then there's you.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

I was literally listening to that episode the other day of like, oh, maybe by the time this episode comes out, I'll have taken the paperwork down to the doctors, and I was like, Oh no, my maritime remembers that she was gonna hold me to this. I'm not taking the paperwork down to the doctors to get my ADHD diagnosis.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

But you know, let's face it, I was never gonna hold you to that because I wasn't gonna remember.

SPEAKER_01 4:45

That was completely forgotten to listen back to that episode. So, you know, we're we're we're doing well, we're doing well on accountability and things like that. But yeah, so training and skills development when neurodivergence kind of enters the chat. That's it's very much what you do now, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 5:04

You are talking all about yeah, yeah, so pretty much all of my training is around inclusion. So um I specialise in equality, diversity, and inclusion or equal or fairness, inclusion, and respect more now. But I bring a lot of neurodiversity training into it as well, and inclusion, just inclusion in general when we're training, to create in safe spaces, safe rooms for everybody to thrive because we all learn and process things very differently. Yeah, and as trainers, I think we need to adapt to that. We kind of need to move away from the old school style of training and start taking into consideration the fact that we've got lots of different learning styles, lots of different personalities, and trying to account for all of that. But you had an experience this week where that trainer hadn't got the memo.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

Yeah, so um in my in my uh spare time, I always say that in inverted commas, don't I? Yeah. What my spare time is sleep. Um I am, as many of you know, I am a scout leader, I'm a very, very proud scout leader, and I was offered the opportunity to um become an air rifle instructor um with scouts. Um so I've I've previously, you know, I'm I'm an archer instruct archery instructor, I also do axe throwing um instruction as well. Um, and so air rifle just kind of seemed to fit that narrative of of me adding more weapons and and things to to my um more arrows to my quiver.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

Um remind me never to meet you down a dark alley, by the way. Never annoy you. I've got skills and I will use them. I have a very specific set of skills.

SPEAKER_01 6:42

Yeah, I'm the female Liam Neeson, just for that the uh the gruff voice.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

I will find you.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

Um, and yeah, so I was I was on this course and I realized straight away that it was going to be quite difficult for me. Um in terms of I mean, you know, I find any any situation where I'm sitting and listening to somebody for a prolonged period of time really quite difficult. Um, and I have to have things, I mean, we discussed in in previous ADHD episodes about the the fidget toys and the fidget things that we've got on our desk. I'm literally as I'm talking about this, I'm picking things up off my desk and twelling them around my fingers. Um but yeah, so while I was at this training course, it was okay, so this is going to be very much sit in front of a PowerPoint presentation, which is nothing wrong with that. Um, and listen to um the instructor. Again, you know, I knew the fact that day one, you know, it's a two-day course. Day one was going to be heavily on the legal side and the paperwork and the responsibilities and the risk assessments and all that kind of stuff, which it absolutely was right to be. Um, and so I I the course started at nine. We got there at eight to have some breakfast and sort of meet people and have a bit of a social before. Um, the course started. And at about half eleven, I was like, okay, I'm I'm beginning to struggle. So I pulled my phone out and I started to take photos of the slides that I thought would be really relevant for us writing our paperwork and our um stuff to actually be able to do air rifle shooting with scouts. And the instructors went, Oh, you don't need to worry about taking notes or or pictures or anything like that, because I'll send the slides out and I've got a workbook that's got all the information that you could ever possibly need to know to give out to you a little bit later. So I was like, Okay, so it is just sit and listen to this guy. And then at about a few minutes later, we then had the first activity where we could actually discuss in small groups, you know, sort of what we'd been learning. And it got to about, you know, we carried on and we didn't really have a lot of practical things. Um, and I've always been, you know, back in the 90s and early noughties, we called it kinesthetic learning. I learned by doing, by actually doing activities. Um, and that was always like my my preference. And then it got to about three o'clock on that first day, and I really was struggling to sit still. I was really struggling to maintain focus. Like I was um I again I saw something the other day that said that ADHD is the only ones that can be aggressively bored and like really angry about the fact that they are bored. Um, so I I I pull my phone out. I have I have one particular game on my phone, which it doesn't take an awful lot of brain power, it really doesn't take an awful lot of concentration, um, but it's just keeping my my hands busy, there's movement in front of my eyes. It's just basically, I call it like a game that's like a fidget spinner, it's is really, you know, simplistic in its design. And it got to a certain point that I've been playing this game for you know a few minutes, but I kept looking up, I kept like engaging or nodding along or answering questions or anything like that. And the instructor basically stopped and stared at me and said, I'm sorry, am I boring you? And I was just like, I don't know how to articulate to this guy politely now, because you've really angered me with that comment. Um, to say that no, I am actually struggling. Like you've given me nothing that I can make notes on, because even note-taking for me is an activity that just keeps my focus. Um, and he was like, Oh, I'm a am I boring you? And I was like, Well, actually, I'm just really struggling. Yeah, like I'm really struggling to maintain focus. This was keeping my focus, and now I feel like I'm and I put my phone down like you know, a naughty school kid because I still have that kind of response in my head of oh, I've been caught doing something naughty, put my phone away. I'm a grown adult, I'm in my mid-30s. Like, why do I feel like I'm 12 years old and just been caught, you know, eating sweets in class or something like that?

SPEAKER_00 10:48

Yeah, but it will make you feel like that.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

Yeah, and I put my phone away, and then that was it for the rest of the day. It was all I was doing, like sit my brain was just churning around. Sit still, look like you're paying attention, pay attention. What is he saying? What was that? Sit still, don't fidget, don't pick up your phone, don't do, don't spin, you know, twirl your pen, don't click your pen, don't look like you're and it was just this loop of thought. And I was like, really struggled with that. And and you know, Verity, I I got home and I was like, Can I just vent to you? Because I knew that you know, with your your experience and your your job at the moment, you you were gonna be very much like, no, this is not okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:27

What what did you say when he said, Am I boring you?

SPEAKER_01 11:30

I didn't say anything because it was I was my brain was like, if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

Oh, so you know, my brain would have gone, Yes, you are boring me. Do you want to shake things up a bit? Jess, uh everything about it just makes me feel really angry. Obviously, this is a subject that I'm really passionate about, and it just really, really makes me angry. When you sent me the message, I was just like, I literally, if you'd seen me, my jaw hit the floor. It was like, are you serious? Not only has this person not created a safe and engaging environment where every brain can thrive, but he's called you out on it. So he's actually invalidated everything. It's just, oh my word, seriously, please tell me his details so I can write a letter. Oh, the R.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

Just made me think. I mean, there were certain things in his language as well that were just um, you know, he seemed to think the fact that ADHD sort of only affect boys, and the fact that their hyperactivity was just rooted in they can't sit still and they become a bit naughty. Um, and I I've just said that with, you know, waving my fingers in the air as I'm in quotes, but I realize our listeners aren't going to hear that. Um, you know, he was saying, and it was like he used uh what else did he use? Oh, he used um ADD, which we haven't used for a long time because we understand that the hyperactivity actually is in the brain, it's not a physical hyperactivity, it's a mental hyperactivity. We now call, you know, we don't diagnose people with ADD anymore. It's ADHD. Like it's and there was just a lot of things that I was just like, okay, this is somebody clearly who hasn't, they've got a lot of knowledge. They had, I mean, his knowledge on air rifle and his experience on air rifle instruction was, you know, this is somebody who's trained paralympians. This is somebody who's, you know, one of the the highest coaches and instructors in the country in air rifles, um, which was fantastic, a bank of knowledge for me to, you know, learn from and listen to. Um, but yeah, it was just some of the language, and I was just getting angry and I was like, I'm I'm gonna stay quiet now, I'm gonna bite my tongue because I can't I guess I can get it walked out.

SPEAKER_00 13:48

I wouldn't have been able, I think you're really impressive for being able to sit and just I can imagine how your brain switched off and you didn't learn much after that because it just would have been all of those thoughts going through your mind. He's just completely disengaged somebody, it's horrendous. And the irony is listening to the way you describe him, there is probably a diagnosis in there somewhere as well. Completely unknown, or certainly a cool blue. If you did insights at Discovery, which is a personality profile, it's very accurate personality profile. Oh, I've actually got to do that. I I love disc profiles.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

I've got one on my I've got one literally next to my teeth.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

That's really good, and insights goes to the next level of disc. It's it's brilliant, it's so accurate, but it tells you kind of the colours that the people are and how people communicate and need to be communicated with and all sorts.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

But I have it on my desk is because it's literally if I'm having a conversation with somebody, like a client or a new client I'm on boarding. When they say certain things, I can just flick to it and go, okay, actually, you're more red, or you're more green, or you're more yellow or blue. And I actually can go, right, you need me to be, you need me to talk in this way. Okay, I'm going to respond because I've I'm not a disc profiler in the slightest, and we've really got off topic now from what we started at.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

I know, but it is relevant because it mixes. I mean, we teach a lot on um insights. Uh, I'm not a practitioner, um, there are people in the organization who are, and it it marries really well with neurodivergence because you quite often find certain colours are more likely to be um neurodivergent or have neurodivergent traits. Because I always teach neurodivergence on traits, not conditions. Yes. Um, so let me just caveat it like from a trainer's perspective, somebody who does training on a daily basis. It's literally my job to train people. So I'm just gonna can I give you my two penis worth on this? Absolutely, and then we'll relate it. Because I mean, I've only gone through like day one of what it was like. There was a second day. Oh my god, I'm not sure you should go through day two because I might just flip my lid. Um, so you know, it as a trainer, it is tricky. You'll know this. When you've got a room full of people, it is really tricky to manage the whole room and create a space where everybody can thrive. I've I I always get a briefing sheet, so I always know who's coming on the call if there's any additional learning needs, if there's any diagnosed neurodivergent, if there's any suspected neurodivergents, anybody needs anything particular. And sometimes, like today, for example, I need to be candid, I'm not gonna give out any information, but I had seven different things that I needed to take into consideration. Which in one classroom. Yeah, it was a big classroom, it's the biggest I've taken, and seven different, different learning needs. And I looked at it and thought, oh my word, how am I gonna do this? But actually, when you put it in perspective of things, I and I did say to them on the call, I cannot possibly as a trainer take every single thing into consideration. I've got a lot of people to consider, but I will try my best to work in the best ways for all of you. And you have to kind of, there's easy things you can do that suit everybody because the idea of a training course is that at some point somebody will get something really big out of it. They don't have to be engaged for the entire course, but they have to be engaged enough to learn what they need to learn on it. So you've got a responsibility now, bear in mind the topics I teach on, right? So it's not that far off what you're learning. So I teach on equality, diversity, and inclusion. There's a huge legality aspect to that. Yeah. And I've got to make that interesting. And I do make that interesting. I do, I make it fun, I make the legal stuff fun because that's how people learn. Yeah, yeah. So my courses are always run very um, first of all, I start them in a way where I make people feel safe.

unknown 17:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

So at the start of every single session, I say to people, we all learn differently. Your well-being is your responsibility today. These are when the breaks are going to happen. However, if at any point you need to take a break, you need to get up and move, you need to go and doodle if you want, you want to play a game. And I do actually say about playing games on the phone because I can't do anything without playing a game on my phone. If I've got to concentrate on something, that is how I concentrate. Yeah. Um, I say I'm not watching you, you don't have to keep your cameras on if you don't want to. Um, you keep yourself safe in any way you want. And I always set the scene to create a safe, non-judgmental environment. So they learn in ways I meet them where they're at. You know, that's a saying that is really kind of it's a buzz saying at the minute, but it's it's right, you've got to meet people where they're at. And I set the scene for them. And then throughout my trainings and some of the stuff, I mean, today is a big course, it's a huge amount of content. It's it's a big level. These are senior, senior people. It was a big level qualification, a lot to go through. But I made the whole course conversational. So there were debates, conversations throughout. I did different activities throughout. So even on the bits that, you know, the legal bits, the important bits, the really like necessary bits, there were activities around those. Didn't have to be breakout rooms. I do group activities, I do chat box activities because it's online, which is even harder. Um then I do breakout activities. There's so much that we do throughout the day. So we meet everybody's learning styles. We keep it interesting for everybody, we allow people to go off if they need to, if they want to go and grab a glass of water, if they want to just move, because sometimes, especially when you're neurodivergent, you need to just move. You can't sit there constantly for hours. And we allow them to do that. And if you're not creating that space, then you're just not doing your job as a trainer. If you're judging people, if somebody is bored, if somebody in your classroom looks bored, that is a you problem, it's not a them problem. They probably are.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

I wasn't I wasn't like, but I just couldn't sit still anymore. I know it genuinely went to day two, and I spent the first must have been about an hour to 90 minutes of the the day two's presentation. I mean, luckily with day two, there was far more activities, there was like role-playing stuff because then it was like, right, okay, we've learned the content, now it's actually how do we put this into practice, which is fine. Like that's you know, day two was a lot easier, but the first couple of hours of day two was still sat in front of a PowerPoint and and listened to this guy. Um and I did find at one point on day two, I'd literally been staring at one letter on the PowerPoint because all that was in my head was sit still, sit still, don't fidget, sit, don't fidget, sit still, pay attention, pay attention, pay attention, sit still, sit still, sit still. Because I didn't want to repeat on day two like I've had on day one.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

Um I would be absolutely mortified as a trainer if if anybody felt like that in my classroom. I get that sometimes people switch off and it's okay because they cannot pay attention a hundred percent of the time. But we're so far away as well from I mean, day one, I wouldn't even deliver a course like that if I couldn't make it interactive. You have to make it interactive, you've got to have different levels to every course. It's not a day one and day two thing that it could have brought activities in, more activities, it could have made it more interactive. But there's this thing around death by PowerPoint, isn't it? And it's just that phrase it is a hate PowerPoint, and I use PowerPoints every day. But the first thing I say to people, or one of the first things I say, is I am not gonna read the slides to you today. You will get a copy of the slides. You are welcome to read through them, but I'm gonna give you the information that is based on the slide that is more interactive and engaging than what you're reading. We are not gonna sit and read the slides, and I make that clear from the start: death by PowerPoint, there is nothing worse. I would literally have got up and walked out. I would have, I'd never have been it. Well done, you for sticking it out because I would not have stuck that out. I just really wanted the qualification. I get it, I really get it, but it's just a wow.

SPEAKER_01 21:37

I've been booked next week to go and deliver, and you know, I was invited as it was a speaker slot for an intimate group that say that they've been struggling with their social media. Um, and I called up the organizer today and I said, you know, look, can I just have some more details of like, do you want me to run this as like a keynote speech? Which I, you know, you know I'm more than happy to do um, you know, a 20 minute, half an hour keynote speech on actually how. You can get the most out of your social media marketing. But when you're talking to like the event organizer had talked to me about actually why he was inviting me to come along to this thing and why he was, you know, booking me for this was because people have constantly saying the fact that they are really struggling with um their social media, they're also struggling with their websites. So um he's got somebody coming in to do the websites first, and then we'll talk about the social media. And I said, Well, it sounds more like they'd benefit from a workshop where they actually go away with content that they've got and some really actionable key key tips because it's all very well me coming and talking to them. But if they haven't actually got that physical, oh, this is this is how I do it, this is how I get it. And he turned around, he was like, Well, would you be able to do that? I'm like, Yes, absolutely. I love delivering workshops, I love training as much as I love speaking. Um, so I've I've spent this morning actually writing it, you know, all this out. And my power, I like, yes, I said to him, I was like, look, can I have some some you know facilities to do a presentation? So it's sort of a mixture of both, and and you know, we'll do some talking, some listening, some um some group sharing kind of activities. Um, but my presentation slides are always really like they've got the key points on there, yeah, but the main bulk of the information is never on the slides.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

Yeah, absolutely. I can't stand, you know, we're so moving away from slides that are just jam-packed with information. But I mean, there is there's room for I deliver talks, I do webinars, and that is that just does involve me talking for an hour, but then you have to consider your listeners in a different way. So you have to think about the pace that you're going at, the tone that you're using. You have to kind of breathe so it gives people a chance to catch up with what you're saying. You have to put thought into it to be a really skilled speaker. You know that you have to really think about how you're delivering the message and how it's received. And a good trainer and a good speaker will always start with how will this be received? And don't make assumptions because just because it's coming out of your mouth does not mean it's gonna be received in the way you want it to be. So you need to think about things like that and adapt as well.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

Like, you know, I mean, as a speaker, you you you will have those moments where you hear the audience go, Whoa, it's like right, okay, that one hit hard because I heard the audience go, Whoa, I'm gonna give them a pause so that when I start again, they'll be with me. That they haven't just lost, I haven't just lost them in whatever bombshell that I've just dropped that's really unlocked something in their brains. Like, you have to, oh, we we've really got off topics.

SPEAKER_00 24:31

Yeah, but I do think it's relevant, and I think it's relevant to all business owners because although this is our experience and we are trainers and you know, we do speak in, and you know, we're kind of I mean, I say we're confident in it. I always still feel like I'm gonna throw up before every training session and every talk, but that's a good thing, I think, because it gives me that kind of you know, yeah, I care, and if I didn't have those nerves, then I think it's time to move on, really. But you know, we've been training for years, I've been training for donkeys years, but I think where it's relevant for business owners is when that level of, and we're not going where I thought we were going to go here, I don't think, but is that level of understanding who you're talking to and the way you um pace yourself, the tone you use, the language you use, and understanding that we all process things differently. With there's nothing worse than using jargon because nobody understands your jargon except you. Um, you know, speaking, meeting people where they're at. And I think you need to have a real kind of when you're a business owner to build those relationships, you need to understand the people you're working with. And that does take skill because sometimes you don't get a briefing sheet for every client and you you've got to work it out and you've got to work it out quickly. But also, I think from the other extent of that, I think if you're going on training courses, because you might be listening to this and you don't deliver talks or you don't deliver training, but if you are going on courses, I would always say, as somebody who delivers training on a daily basis, this is literally my career. Please show up to that training session. And if you haven't got an opportunity in advance to say what you need, tell the trainer, I need you to deliver like this, I need you to do it this way. Is that possible? Or I might struggle in this, so I might turn my camera off. Don't be afraid to say that. If they're a good trainer, and there are a lot of good trainers out there, they will totally get it and appreciate it and they will understand that they need to adapt their style to everybody in that room. They need to try and meet everybody.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

Yeah. And like I say, you know, hindsight being 2020. I should have told the trainer.

SPEAKER_00 26:31

Um, but he totally invalidated you, he shut you down. All those things that we learn as women with ADHD diagnosed in later life, we've got these messages in our brain. He's literally just reinforced it.

unknown 26:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:44

He's a pillar. Sorry. I have his name, so I make sure he doesn't come in my facility anyway here.

SPEAKER_01 26:53

But no, it was you know, and I was chatting to somebody else because part of the course as well was um and the reason why he was talking about ADHD and ADD, and the same, I mean he linked it the fact that it was mainly boys that have it, which just that started to anger me anyway. But um his his whole thing was the fact that all you as a as the adult, as the leader, need to be aware of if you've got children who you are instructing with air rifles, um, who have ADHD or ADD, he was saying, um, so that you can, you know, you can make preparations for that, you can, you can understand, you know, that um what was one of the other things he said was, oh, you might have to uh if they're um if they're a bit hyperactive, you might have to tell them to go and calm down somewhere. No, no, I was like okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:47

If anybody could see right now, I've literally got an expression on my face that is scream, you know, it's don't even talk about it. If you don't know it, if you don't understand it, do not talk about it. Just don't.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

But it was the fact that he'd brought all of this up and it was like, oh, you should know this about people before before you hand them a rifle. And yet he hadn't actually asked the group if any of us had got ADHD or or learning accessibility needs or anything like that, or any medical situations, you know, that we've got people in this course who've got like severe asthma, and if they have an asthma attack, like you know, I know I know my friends who've got asthma and where they keep their inhaler, so I would be able to go and do that, and you know, and somebody might somebody else on the course um revealed to me the fact that they've got epilepsy, and I was like, but he'd not done either any of that as well before handing us these things, and it was like okay, so that I just I just started to learn and go, right, okay, there's a learning gap here because you know he's he's great at his instruction, he's really knowledgeable in this thing, but actually as a trainer, there's there's a gap in knowledge there, and skills, a huge gap in and I think there's a lesson here that not everybody should be trainers, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:00

It is a skill, it it does take a lot of experience and and you know, qualifications sometimes, and it but a lot of experience and a lot of knowledge around what you're teaching. Um it's not something that you know if you're not naturally if you're not naturally a trainer, please don't go into training because it just this is a clear example of somebody who's really good at the skill, but is not great at delivering to other people.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

So it doesn't mean just because you're really good at it that you can train in it, because training is a whole new set of skills, and there is a whole load of things that you need to consider before entering that training room, which is why I think you know that that old I mean, I I haven't heard it since like the early noughties, and that's because my mum was a teacher, but you know, that she used to get you know, friends take the mick out of her of like, oh, those that um can't do teach, and that that phrase was just those who can do those who can't teach, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:53

Yeah, and it's like, well, no, actually, not everybody can teach because you know, there are some some real people that struggle to understand that there are different learning styles, and and I mean that was really coming into uh fruition when I was, you know, a teenager, and it, you know, we we felt confident as teenagers that we could challenge some of our our teachers and say, look, I learn I'm a kinesthetic learner, you know, I I learn through doing activities, and please tell me where reading this textbook is gonna help me, like you know, it and I think you know, we're kind of we're nowhere near there in schools, we're gonna go on to a totally different topic now, but we're we're nowhere near there in academic settings. I mean, my husband is trained to be a teacher, you know this, and he comes home sometimes, and he's got the benefit of being married to me, obviously. Um, you know, so he's got the trauma-informed perspective. Absolute privilege of being married to me. Although I wouldn't have said that as I was going through my ADHD assessment. I was wondering, I was questioning massively why he's married to me, if I'm honest. But we talk a lot because we we kind of in what I do and what he does, although we're very different audiences, obviously, I teach adults, he teaches children, we overlap a lot in the kind of academic models we look at, how he's learning the activities we do. I've actually stolen a lot of his activities that he's learned, and he's done it with me. And he will come home and say, I had this situation today, how should I have dealt with it? Because I dealt with it like this, how should I have dealt with it? And he's willing to learn constantly. And a lot of that is like it's challenging in any classroom setting to get it right with everybody, and you won't get it right with everybody. You've got to try and get it right with most people.

SPEAKER_01 31:32

That is the aim of the game, and you will get it right 100% of the time. There'll be moments where you are getting it right for everybody, and everybody is really clued in and they are engaged and they are attentive, and then you'll suddenly notice that the one's just drifted off.

SPEAKER_00 31:45

Yeah, and then it's like right, okay, it's fine to drift off, but at some point you've got to try and pull them back in, and yeah, and it's also knowing when somebody is drifting off or the difference between when someone's drifting and when somebody is just introverted and doesn't want to get involved in that particular activity or conversation, and allowing that to be okay because we all process and do things differently. So, and again, that is a skill, being a trainer. It the more I do it, I think the more I realise what a skill it is. Because I think it's always come quite naturally, and when it comes naturally, you don't ever look at it really from a kind of a perspective of skills because it's just something you do, you know, and I do it well, I think. Um, but it is it's a huge skill, and when you see bad trainers, you realize what a skill it is, actually. And it is the same with teachers, there are a lot of teachers out there that should not teach because just because they're really good at the subject does not mean they can teach it and share that knowledge because there's so much more than just saying, I know how to do this, so let me show you. That's not how training is and teaching, doesn't work like that.

SPEAKER_01 32:47

No, and while you're talking, I'm like in my head, like my my brain is playing the um the episode from Big Bang Theory where Sheldon Cooper, you know, massive physical physicist, really, really intelligent guy, is asked to be a teacher, and he gets really bad evaluations from his students because he's really knowledgeable about the subject, but he's not a good teacher.

SPEAKER_00 33:06

You know, he's you have to excite people, you have to really bring them in, you have to engage with them, you have to, it's the experience, you are providing an experience, it's not just knowledge, it's the experience that they're gonna get from it, and it's just yeah, yeah, not everybody should teach.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

Like you said, you know, if you are, you know, if you are neurodivergent and you're not a trainer or you're not thinking about this, but you're looking at, you know, going into training, i.e., you know, getting some skills development and upskilling certain things in your business or or in your life or career or you know, where wherever you are, um, actually understanding how you learn and how you respond to different trainers. And like you said, you know, just outline to certain people before, if they haven't asked and go, do you know what? Actually, I I learn best by lecture style, if I just want to listen to you guys, or I I learn best by sort of workshops, I will learn by activities and or group discussion, or you know, knowing your learning style is a is a really big thing. Um that I think it's a really positive thing that you can do as somebody who wants to learn and develop your skills.

SPEAKER_00 34:16

Yeah, absolutely. I'm not really sure what our wildly or Wednesday wild words of wisdom would be today. Um maybe don't go into something that you shouldn't go into. No, I'm only joking.

SPEAKER_01 34:31

Yeah, but no, but I think you're right along the lines of the fact that you know understanding, understanding your learning styles, but understanding that you don't not everybody's cut out to be a trainer or a teacher or coach.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

And always check for being received, because coming out of your mouth is one thing, but how it's received is the important bit. So don't assume that they've got the message, actually, that you know, they may need and this goes with clients, you know. When you're talking to clients, it goes back to the conversation we had on the last podcast, actually, about um we can refer to it in terms of why people don't cross the line, come over the line, and become clients. Maybe it is because our communication, the way we've explained something, hasn't landed the way we intended it. So it's always worth looking at who you're dealing with and how they process things, how they understand things and make sure your message has landed in the right way.

SPEAKER_01 35:23

Yeah. That would be my wisdom. I'm I'm forever when I'm I'm teaching and coaching. Um, I've noticed the fact that one of my little catchphrases is like I just it just rolls off the tongue that I say, does that make sense? Does that make sense? I say all the time. And you know, if I've watched back any of my training recordings and videos and things like that, and I'm like, I must say that about 50 times in an hour. It's it's ridiculous how much I check in with my learners to say, uh, are you with me or have I run away from you because I'm talking about my passionate topic?

SPEAKER_00 35:57

And I say that exact sentence about 50 times a day. Does that make sense after every section? And then pause to let them tell me if it makes sense or if they need to clarify something. Um does anybody have any questions?

SPEAKER_01 36:10

Does that make sense? Are you with me? All of these little nuanced phrases.

SPEAKER_00 36:15

And I am conscious of it. I'm conscious that I'm repeating that constantly, but then I get the feedback that says Ferris he allowed us time to make sure that we understood what was being said every time. So it's I will continue to ask those questions constantly, not just at the end of the day, but throughout the day. Does that make sense? Any questions? Do I need to go back over anything? Is the pace okay?

SPEAKER_01 36:36

Yeah, all of those things. Um, which ironically was one of the things that I had back was um, you know, that somebody would would have preferred that more lecture setting. So that's one of the reasons why I'm developing, you know, my courses to be sort of an on-demand thing that I don't actually have to keep checking in with people. People can, you know, watch the recordings and things like that um at their own pace. Yeah, because I've I've discovered that some of my learners do not do not learn in that style. So I'm I'm gonna change by teaching that way. Yeah. There we go.

SPEAKER_00 37:13

I think I think we've got we've got we've definitely got some world words of wisdom in this. I think so. If not, we had a really good rant, so that's alright.

SPEAKER_01 37:21

We've had a really in-depth conversation about learning and teaching and training styles, which you did wake me up a bit though. I was gonna say, I mean, yeah, watching you as you you I watch the electricity as your brain started to spark.

SPEAKER_00 37:35

I'm obviously like on the downside of it now, because I'm back to the position where my head is in my fist, but I definitely removed my fist from my head throughout that conversation and my arms were flailing, flaying off, layering flay, flail, flail flailing over. What was it? Flailing around. Flailing, yeah, flailing around everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 37:55

Yeah, yeah. Some of the some of the truth bombs when you you know watching your face scream. Yeah. Were uh interesting from my perspective.

SPEAKER_00 38:04

Yeah. Shocking. Well, there you go. Should we leave it there?

SPEAKER_01 38:09

I think I think we have covered that that topic. I'm not sure whether it was the topic that we started with, but it's it's definitely uh a topic to for us to discuss.

SPEAKER_00 38:18

Yeah, absolutely. Wildly intentional, just whatever, anything goes. All right then, see you on the next one.

SPEAKER_01 38:26

We'll see you then. Thanks very much.

SPEAKER_00 38:29

Bye. Thanks for spending this time with us on Wildly Intentional. If this episode sparks something for you, take it with you and act on it. Don't forget to subscribe, share, and come and say hello online. And remember, bold talk leads to big breakthroughs and no apologies.