Wildly Intentional

21. Handling rejection as an ADHD business owner

• Flick Hamnett-Day & Verity Curryer • Season 1 • Episode 21

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In this episode of Wildly Intentional, Flick and Verity dive into a topic that many business owners experience but don't always talk about openly: rejection.

Whether it's a client saying no, an unanswered email, a piece of content that doesn't perform as expected, or a message that's interpreted the wrong way, rejection can feel intensely personal — especially for those with ADHD.

The ladies explore Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria (RSD), how it can show up in both business and everyday life, and the impact it can have on confidence, decision-making and relationships. Sharing their own experiences, they talk honestly about the emotional response that can come with perceived rejection and the strategies they've developed to navigate it.

From client communication and networking to social media and self-worth, this episode is packed with relatable moments, practical insights and plenty of reassurance that you're not the only one who feels this way.

If you've ever found yourself overthinking a message, reading between the lines, or questioning yourself after receiving feedback, this conversation will feel very familiar.

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Don't forget to join us in our Facebook Group to continue the conversation and let us know your thoughts on this episode and if you have ever felt the same as we do here.

SPEAKER_02

Welcome to Wildly Intentional, a podcast for business owners who refuse to play small.

SPEAKER_00

This is where we have bold talk, honest conversations and dig into what it really takes to create big breakthroughs in business and life.

SPEAKER_02

We're Flick and Verity, two business owners who've built, broken, rebuilt, and grown businesses in our own ways.

SPEAKER_00

And we're here to share the lessons, the mindset shifts, and the unapologetic decisions that helped us to level up.

SPEAKER_01

So if you're ambitious, grow focused, and ready to do business on your own terms. Thank you in the right place. Let's get wildly intentional.

SPEAKER_00

Good morning. Good morning, everyone.

SPEAKER_03

I nearly went into the uh Truman show thing.

SPEAKER_00

Good morning, good afternoon, good day. I love the fact you said good morning to everybody, but you failed to say good morning to me, you know, the person sat in front of you. Good morning. Morning, Verity.

SPEAKER_03

You haven't used You're full of beans this morning, aren't you?

SPEAKER_00

I am actually. I am really happy, and I don't know why, because um my daughter's caused me major stress this morning. Um, can I talk about that for a second? Because it's a little bit it's kind of relevant to what we're talking about today. Um, so my youngest daughter, right, I've known for a long time that she is neurodivergent. In fact, both of them are, but with Molly, it's a little bit different because hers comes out in stress. So she's a lot like me. You know, I struggled when I was younger to really regulate my emotions. And I have been, and anybody out there with children who's going through this will understand, and you know what I've been through with Molly in the school and how long it's taken me to get them to pay any attention to it. Took me three years to even get a meeting, then they objected at the meeting and said, but she's not like that in school. And I'm like, it's called masking. Um, you know, and I had a bit of a battle, and then they did start paying attention because you know, I showed them where they should be looking for the signs. I literally pointed them in the direction. Um, and they saw it, and then she had a brilliant teacher whose um son is autistic, so he spotted it a mile off, and you know, he was like, Yes, I get it. Um, but because it took them so long, obviously she's nowhere near diagnosis, and I'm not even sure she wants diagnosis, if I'm honest. And we're kind of talking about it, and it's fine if she doesn't, but what I need to know is she's going into comp next year. She's going into, I don't know, do you call it comp? What do you call it? Yeah, that's what I'm secondary school, if you like for those, because I know sometimes Paul never called it comp. Um, Rob always calls it high school, and I'm like, I'm not in my school. Yeah, high school. It's yeah. Um, anyway, it's secondary school. So she's going up there, and I've said all along, she is brilliant, she's very academic, she's very intelligent, she's very emotionally intelligent. And this is the problem because she's high functioning, she's really high functioning, so they don't see it. And I said the problem you're gonna have with Molly isn't the same as Isabella, where Isabella is really struggling with school and she hates school. Molly will thrive, she'll love the academic side, but she will get really stressed with homework, exams, because she'll have to be the best. Yeah, and I've said this all along, and they've said no, it won't be a problem. And she said to me, It won't, ma'am. I'm okay. I'm really looking forward to it. I'm okay. And then yesterday, oh my god, she came home from school yesterday and she was like a banshee. And we haven't had like a big outburst for quite a while because she's recognising it now. We're working on it, we're giving her tools, and um, she came home, and I literally I knew nothing, I could nothing that came out of my mouth was going to be the right thing to say, even if it was I love you, it would be no, you don't. I even had you don't love me, you hate me. It was, you know, I had it all last night, but we got into the habit of going for a walk with the dogs every night on the beach. So my condition to me walking the dogs, and if you met my dogs, you'd know why there has to be conditions. Um, you know, they're not easy.

SPEAKER_03

Listeners who've who've listened right from the beginning will remember the times where Zuma joined us on these.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. They're not easy, and it's definitely not easy to walk. So I said, My husband hates walking them, so I said, I will do it, but my condition is I need to drive that 15 minutes to the beach, and that's we walk is they've got dunes, so we don't go directly on the beach, we walk them on the dunes. And so me and Molly have started to do that, and it's been really good because it's been a really kind of I get stressed in my job, you know. So at the end of the day, I've realized how much it kind of because the beach has always been my place where that narrator of my brain stops. It's the only place apart from like the theatre and immersive experiences and things, but the beach is a place that I can go, it's like my safe space, it's my my happy place, no matter what mood I'm in, even if I want to go down there and cry, it's just the place that that helps me calm all the fog. So we went and I said, Well, she didn't want to go, she said, I'm not going with you, you hate me, I'm not going for a walk with you. And I was like, Oh, if ever there was a day that you need this walk, it's today. So I was like, No, you are going, get in the car. So she got in the car and she sat in the back because she didn't want to sit next to me because you know I was the worst in the world by this point.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah. You know, forcing her to do a thing, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, absolutely. By the time we got done, um, well, we were about 10 minutes into the walk, and I could see her physically start to relax. And she was like, I'm still mad at you. And I said, Is it okay, darling? You can be mad at me, but let's just enjoy the walk. And you know, I kept my tone very calm. And then I looked over at the beach and it was clear there was nobody on it. So I said, Come on, let's go down on the beach. So we went down on the beach and we walked. I said to Paul, this is going to be a longer walk. She needs a long walk tonight, so we are going to walk it off until she comes. Um, so we did this long walk on the beach, and at one point I stopped, she said, What are you doing? And I she said, I'm still a bit mad at you. And I said, It's okay, you can be mad at me. I accept that. I'm glad that we're not as mad as we were, but I'll take it. And I said, But I just want you to take a minute and appreciate the fact that we are the only people on this beach, Molls. And she was like, Yeah, okay, I'm still a little bit mad at you, but it is quite nice. Anyway, by the time we finished the walk, all was well with the world. But I got out of her that she came downstairs and she said, I don't know what to do. And I said, What do you mean? She said, I need to have a shower and I've got this thing to do for tomorrow. And I said, What have you got to do for tomorrow, Molls? And she's leaving obviously primary school, so they've got to do this like cover for an autograph book that they're all doing. So she's got to design her own cover and it had to be in today. And I said, Okay, darling, it's fine. I said, Go and have a shower now, and then we'll sit down and do it. No, she couldn't, it was total overwhelmed, complete overwhelm. She couldn't figure it out. So at 11 o'clock last night, we were sat doing this cover, and in the end, I went to bed. I was like, look, Miles, you know, she got to the stage. You could see her processing on it. She couldn't figure out what she wanted on it, everything, nothing I was saying was kind of helpful to her, even though she kind of appreciated they were good ideas, but actually, I can't cope with that, it's too much.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, too much overwhelmed with God upsetting.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. And in the end, she was like, I've got it now, mum, it's okay, go to bed. So I went to bed knowing, and this might make me a bad parent, but there's nothing I can do. I can't make my kids sleep when they're in that state, they're in that state. So I knew she was going to stay up until this was done. So I don't know what time she went to bed. And of course, this morning she overslept.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And the one thing with Molly is she hates being late. She can't be late. She's like me. She cannot be late. So I had a bit of a battle with her, and I was like, look, you know, you've got to go in. Can I go in a break? No, I've got meetings. Can I go in at lunchtime? No, I've got meetings on. I'm working today. I can't. You've got to go into school. Even if you're late, I'll go and take Isabella. I'll come back for you. I'll walk you in if you want. Then it was, but it's assembly. And if I don't get there for nine, it's really embarrassing. I was like, I will get you there before nine. You are literally going to be about seven minutes late. You are never late. We're going to deal with it. It's going to be fine. Anyway, she went. And then just as I dropped her off, I said, Have you got your picture? Oh no. Oh no. Picture still sat in her bedroom. So I'm going to take, I said, look, just go to school, tell your teacher, I'll bring it up later. I'll bring it up at lunchtime. Um, so that's fine. But do you know what? I just I got into bed last night. I said to Paul, you know what that was, didn't you? And he said, An insight into the future? And I said, absolutely. Did I predict this or did I predict it? And he said, absolutely. No, it's like no teacher should ever tell a parent that she doesn't know her kids. And now I've got eight years of hell ahead of me because they wouldn't accept the help. They wouldn't accept that she needed the help. So I'm now going to arrange a message and meet her. I mean, she her teacher is brilliant, I have to say, she's really recognized it, the latest teacher. But ironically, she was new to the school this year. She didn't know my daughter from Adam. And she pulled me on it and said, Do you know that your daughter is struggling? And I was like, Yes, I do. Please, can we talk about this? And she's been brilliant, to be fair. So I'm going to set up a meeting with her and say, you need to contact the comp. Because what I will say, I don't rate the comp they're going into particularly, but I will say that they've got this whole hype. So they've got a real send department. They are set up for send. So she won't go in it because that's stigma, but they will do things in her classroom to help her and support her. Um, and she's just gonna have to accept it because last night wasn't a classic example. But if you are going through it, right, if you're listening and you've got kids and you know, and the teachers aren't listening, you've just got to push because you know them better than anybody. You know what's gonna happen. I knew she was gonna get stressed, and I will not have the next how many years of her life being really stressed when this should be a time where she's she's academic, she loves that stuff, she loves learning, she thrives on it. That that bit doesn't come from me, I have to say, that is all Paul. But you know, Bella's part of that comes from me. Hate school, can't stand the academic side. So, you know, it's been a bit of a stressful morning.

SPEAKER_03

I was Paul and Molly, I loved, I loved it. I was I was so kid at school.

SPEAKER_00

But I did get bullied at school, so that was kind of like you know, kind of put the kibosh on things. But I wasn't academic, I loved drama, you know, that was my place, that was my happy place. Um, so yeah, it's been a bit of a stressful morning, but I thought, you know, let's talk about it because it's probably relevant for a lot of listeners, and it's actually a little bit relevant to what we're gonna talk about today because we are gonna talk about our newer divergent topic again.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and but we're also gonna talk about how it shows up for for other people. So what what we're gonna talk today a little bit about rejection, um, because we face rejection as business owners, and actually for for those of us with ADHD and our listeners who've been with us for a long time know the fact that I am not officially diagnosed. I'm very much living in the the signs are all there.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah, you don't need the diagnosis left.

SPEAKER_03

Verity has been diagnosed, she has her diagnosis, and now he's absolutely severely impaired.

SPEAKER_00

I'll have you know, still got the answer about that.

SPEAKER_03

Um, but obviously there is uh something that gets talked about with HD is uh rejection sensitivity dysphoria or RSD, um, and you know how that shows up for us in business because we do face rejection in business, yeah. Um, you know, and listeners who were listening to an episode uh a couple of weeks ago where we were talking about our values know how much you know I was publicly rejected by one particular person who was not a very nice person, but um, but yeah, it shows up in different ways and how we handle it um can it can damage our reputation if we if we don't handle it well, um or if you know um but also being open and honest about the fact that we we struggle with it is you know it's kind of what what we're about, isn't it? You know, we're all about being open and honest about our situation on this podcast and in business and in life is you know we we don't we try not to mask, yeah, um, because otherwise we end up in situations like Molly did last night where you've masked so hard at school, yeah, but teachers kind of go, Oh well you you can handle this stress, and actually, no, you can't. We can just handle it in front of you, yeah, and then we go home and have a complete nutter meltdown.

SPEAKER_00

And um and actually a lot of what Molly went through last night was RSD. She's like everything I said, she took it as a rejection, she took the whole task as a rejection because she couldn't possibly be good enough to do it. It was she was already anticipating getting shot down before it even happened, and actually what she produced was amazing. She's quite a little artist, she's really good, but she can't see that because she's expecting as most ADHDs are.

SPEAKER_03

We we are quite creative and artistic, and yeah, we we love crafting and and things like that.

SPEAKER_00

So although I am the exception to the rule for that, although I do love crafting, I am really bad at it. I tend to and a classic example of that, this will make you laugh, right? Molly once, and I didn't set it out. This is all gonna be about Molly today, sorry. Um, she's gonna apologize. Sorry, yeah, okay. Um she is she's classically hyper-focusing right now. So a a hyper focus is avatar. No, she's becoming, I can see what the future holds for Molly. She is becoming a little bit of a gamer. James Cameron, or are we talking the last airbender kind of? No, no, no, the film James Cameron, Pandora. Um, she just I mean, I tried to watch it with her years ago and she wouldn't have any of it, but you know, as with all things, Molly, she's got to discover things on her own. So she discovered the first film and became completely obsessed with it. Now, Molly kind of goes from one thing to another. She's got like me in her, but she has stuck with this massively. Um, but she's and she's not, it doesn't seem to be going away. And she's reminded me of my stepson, he hyper focused on trains, and it's literally he's now 19 at the end of this month, and he's still fixated on trains. It's a typical autistic um thing. So I think Pandora is going to be this thing, and she wants an avatar bedroom, and I didn't get it first, and I was like, oh my god, this is gonna cost me a fortune. But she wants her bedroom to be like Pandora, um, and I'll tell you why. I've sussed it out now, she doesn't know why, but I do. Um, but she'd where was I going with this? Oh, yeah, so for Christmas, I bought her this painting, right? And it was beautiful. I thought it was a canvas painting, it looked so much like Pandora. I thought that would look brilliant in this room, really good. And then it arrived and it was rolled up, it was diamond art. And I just looked at it and I phoned Allison and I went, Allison, I've got a project for you. And poor Allison is literally spending an hour and a half to two hours every single night trying to do this huge art project because mummy is not capable, and mummy wasn't even gonna try because mummy was gonna lose her immediately after trying that. So, as much as I like crafting, and Alison will tell you I've tried many different projects, she's tried to get me into stuff, but I'm just really bad at it, really bad at it. However, put me on a stage and I thrive.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, well, see, I I've got both ends of that, isn't that that put me on a stage and I thrive? You know, I had a career on the stage for um a number of years, um, but also crafting. So, like when my business coach kept saying to me, of like, you need to do a vision board, like it's all very good having it in your head, you need it physical, and I was like, that is like a monumental task to me to do like a vision board because I was like, it's got to have the right colour scheme, it's got to have the right images, I can't just like write things on it. You've never had a vision board. I've done I've got one, and it literally sits behind my laptop screen.

SPEAKER_00

So like it's it never looked good enough ever. It bugged me all the time. Yeah, I just couldn't do it. I do know just to change it, just to follow on with that. Um just just because I need you know you to know why Molly wants a Pandora room. I realized um when we went to Alton Towers, and she spent most of the time in the SEN room with me in Siena, and she was playing with these like fibroctic lights, it's like a curtain that she now wants, which by the way is 400 pounds. Yeah, yeah. Um, but she was just playing when she played with it for about an hour and a half, and I was like, that's like serious focus. Pandora is incredibly sensory, avatar is incredibly sensory, and that's why. So now I'm on a mission, her room has just gotta become Pandora, and I don't know how I'm gonna afford it or how I'm gonna do it, but she's got to have this absolute sensory room because she's gonna need that calm space, something wicked.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah. Well, she's well, she's at secondary school, yeah. Um but anyway, um, I think we should get back like shall we try and get back on topic because we've just done vision boards, we've just done sensory, ADHD. Um so I was I was thinking about this as well because this kind of show showed itself for me with with the RSD side of things, um, a couple of weeks ago, where a client messaged me and said, Can we have a chat? And you know, anybody who has RSD will know I teach on this. I'll give you some tips at the end. The absolute fear that went through me when a client messages saying, Can we have a chat? Which was ridiculous. And I managed to talk myself out of it because I look back at my my business, and actually every time a client has wanted to cancel a contract, they've just sent me an email or a WhatsApp. They haven't done it via a chat. Every time a client has, you know, spotted something in the content that they weren't particularly happy with or they wanted to change, they've just sent me a WhatsApp or a really quick email or a text or something like that. You know, every time where it has actually been genuine like rejection that is not in my brain, um, they've never wanted a chat. But I was looking at it and going like, if they'd have messaged me and said, Can we have a catch-up? I'd have been fine with that. But can we have a chat or can we have a talk? Well, you've said I need to talk to you, and those phrases just fire in my brain of like, oh my god, I'm the worst person ever.

SPEAKER_00

When I teach on this, right, you say that about catch-up and and um chat are different. I don't think they are, and I say this all the time in my training. Is I say, Don't say, because obviously I train leaders and managers, and I say, Don't say to somebody, can we have a quick catch-up? Because they're on indeed looking for another job. You need to say, can we have a catch-up on Friday at three about XYZ? And I'm not sure how much I really believed that until yesterday. I mean, I did believe it because obviously I do have RSD. Um, but yesterday, and it got worse, you only know about half of it. I had um out of the blue, one of my directors' teams messaged me and said, Um, I need to book in and catch up with you over the next few days. What's your availability? And I was like, Oh my god, I'm getting sacked. You know, and my logical brain is saying, Yeah, I'm doing really well. I know I'm doing a good job. Why would I be getting sacked? But I'm like, no, I'm definitely getting sacked. It's it's terrible. I've done something awful. I've said something I shouldn't have, I've sent something I shouldn't have. I mean, all the things that could go wrong that I know I haven't done, my brain was like in overdrive. So then I sent her a message back saying, Yeah, sure, no worries. I'm in class Friday, but free today and tomorrow. So she said, I'll send you some times. And I've heard nothing since. So even now, I'm like, ugh, what on earth? And then later in the afternoon, my managing director teams messaged me and said, Hi Verity, aware we haven't spoken for a while. Can we have a quick catch-up tomorrow? I'm free between 11 and 1. Um, all good, don't worry. But if you're free, let me know. And I'm like, but she put, and there was a big difference because whereas my director said, can we have a catch-up in the next few days? That was it, no context. My managing director unintentionally put, all good, don't worry. So I was like, ooh, okay. So they used to have it.

SPEAKER_03

We have we haven't had a you know, we haven't had a chat for a while. Yeah, it's about time. There's just little bits that let you know, okay, like I I know what this meeting's gonna be about. That's the thing, isn't it? It's the fear of the unknown when it comes to RSD.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely, absolutely. But our main our brains will automatically go into that negative space, it will be worst-case scenario. We do go, and I'm a manifester, right? So it's really difficult because it's really contradictory, but then I'm also my daughters will say to me, I don't want to say that because it'll jinx it. So they won't say something good in case they jinx it. And I spent my life doing that. Yeah, and I'm like, well, that is the exact opposite of manifesting, because manifesting is putting it out there all the good stuff, yeah. Yeah, so it's like I've had this battle with my brain. I have to say the manifest is winning.

SPEAKER_03

Um we had that we had that in the pub the other day. I've I've I'm convinced about the landlady um she keeps jinxing um Tuesday night. So, like two weeks ago, um on a Tuesday night, I walked in and she went, Oh, it's a really boring day. We've got we've got a really boring night ahead of us. Oh my god, it was absolutely manic in the pub. It was absolutely chaos. Like every man and his dog came out for for drinks for come any chance we can grab some food. And then last week, um we we got there and I was like, do not say anything, do not say anything. And it was just before our last table arrived, and she was like, Oh, it's actually you know, I wasn't gonna say anything, but it's been a really nice night tonight. Well, then, of course, the last table was the the table that were just you know, they were 20 minutes late for their take their table booking, meant the kitchen had to stay open later. They were really like, you know, from from a hospitality point of view, they weren't bad people, they weren't like slagging us off or shouting at us or anything like that, but yeah, they were just like all these little things. So this Tuesday gets to Tuesday, and I'm like, I do not want to hear any comment on Tuesday night from Sarah until I'm walking out the door to my car, until I've signed out of the pub and I'm walking out the door to my car. And literally, just as I was about to say, right? Bye, see you later. She turned around and she was like, Can I comment on tonight now? Is it safe? Because of the uh because I was like, you keep jinxing us.

SPEAKER_00

It's funny, isn't it? It's really funny what we why we do that. And it is it is the exact opposite to manifesting. It's like we like it's really funny, right? I think we should tell the listeners that we're actually sending messages to each other in the track in a chat box. But every now and again one of us goes silent and mid-sentence because we can't focus on two things at once. I know it is.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, but it's self-justifying because then if we've said it, we've manifested it. But if we said it and it's got the opposite, then we've jinxed it. So it's like, oh, we can just justify whatever it is. Um but yeah, so back to rejection.

SPEAKER_00

Should we go back to but it is it's it's all like related, isn't it? Because everything is rejection. Somebody only has to look at you the wrong way when you've got RSD, and it's just like, oh my god. My best friend is a re-classic for it because even yesterday she sent me a message, she won't mind me sharing this, and said her husband had um failed his MOT, no, her husband, her husband's car had failed his MOT. She put that out there. Sorry, Tim. Um I just took a sip of coffee. I nearly just sprayed it all over the laptop.

SPEAKER_03

You take your husband for an MOT, check his homework.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, but that's quite a good idea though. Um, but yeah, so she sent me a and I said, Oh no, that's not good. Because I was right in the middle of something. I was like, it's my working day, I was really busy, so I couldn't reach her. And then she didn't say anything for a while, and then later on she said, Um, is everything okay? And I I literally messaged her back and said, Did you go into Verizy Hates Me? I've done something wrong because I didn't give you a long answer. And she went, My stupid brain. And I went, No, no, you RSD brain. But let me give you the simplified version, just busy with work, hen. Did acknowledge it. We'll reply better later. Haven't done anything wrong, we're all good. And I think that is key though, it's knowing as well. So it's not just about the fact that we have RSD, it's not just about the fact that we are super sensitive, it is also about understanding who you're working with, even as a client. So it's good for us to be open and say, as a business owner, I am struggling with, you know, I struggle with um ambiguity. That's a really word I use all the time because I can work off my own back, I can have autonomy, I can have all that trust, and that can be amazing, but I do need clarity. I need to know exactly what I'm working on. Because if I don't, that brings the RSD into it. Because then I'm constantly thinking, what if I'm doing this wrong? What if I've got this, I haven't got this right? What if I don't understand this? I'm questioning myself all the time. So even when you're working, I think it's really healthy for business owners to be honest with their clients and say, look, I need some clarity. So if you're going to email me, could you just say to me, could we have a catch-up about X, Y, and Z, rather than just saying, can we have a quick catch-up? Because I will automatically think I've done something wrong. And that catch-up might not be for a week, and that will play on my mind for for you know, constantly. And it's it's okay to be honest about that. It's okay to because it's really common. It's really common.

SPEAKER_03

I did it a few months ago where I I worn a new outfit. You know, when you you I don't know whether you do, but I I certainly have nights where I've I've just like dreamt of an outfit that I'm wearing in a dream. And I get up the following day and I'm like, yeah, do you know what? I'll throw that together and see if it, you know, see how I feel in it. And I went to uh a network.

SPEAKER_00

I've had the naked mortifying dream. I've not had the oh, I'm gonna wear that outfit tomorrow dream.

SPEAKER_03

Oh no, I've I've I don't think I've ever had the naked mortified dream. Really terrifying. It's trauma, honestly. But I so I wore this outfit to a networking event. Now there was a lady there who is a um style and colour analyst, that is her business. Um hi Michelle Wright, if you are listening to this podcast. Um absolutely I've got a lot of time for Michelle. Um and I got to got to this event and I clocked her look me up and down, and I was like, oof, okay, is she gonna comment? Nope, nope, she didn't comment. And then I clocked her about two, two or three more times, just like walk around the corner and just look me up and down. And I was like, okay, I've got to say something now because I'm because my brain is in full meltdown of like, why is she looking me up and down? She's a style analyst, she she's a personal stylist. Like, does this outfit not go? Does this look wrong? Does that is it unprofessional? And I'm like, all of these words are like screaming in my head of like, oh my god, my god. I'm like, you know, Michelle, just ask her. And I was like, and I did, and I was like, Michelle, I'm really sorry, but I've seen the fact that you have looked me up and down a couple of times today, and it's really playing on my brain. Can I ask what the what the thought is? Um, because she always will always say the fact that she's not judging people on their outfits because she, you know, people expect her to because of what she does, but because I'd literally watched her eyes walk rake up and down what I was wearing, and I was like, it's it's really been in my mind what's going on. And she was like, No, I was admiring your outfit and working out whether or not I could pull that off, or I don't think it would suit my style, but it really suits you. And I was like, Thank you, that's all I needed to know. She was like, I don't even notice sometimes the fact that I'm doing it because you know we do, we do look at other people's outfits and have that moment of going, oh, could I wear something like that? Or it really suits them, but I don't think I could wear it and all that kind of stuff. But yeah, my brain was just screaming, and I was like, I've got to be honest with you, Michelle. Like, this is what you're your, I don't want to say triggering because triggering be, but these are the thoughts that your actions are provoking in my brain, and I just need some some reassurance. And you know, even if it was a yeah, I'm I'm not sure that those boots go with that skirt, but I can see how you've you've put the outfit together and and you know it works for you kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00

Like, I don't, I don't you just need to know though, it's the clarity, isn't it? It's not evo. I I don't even think it is rejection, I think it's clarity. It is we need clarity, we absolutely need things, literally need things to be written. Like it's like the dummy's guide to everything, isn't it? We just need that clarity. Yeah but I think as well, I mean I remember uh being exactly where you are in terms of you know those emails from clients, and I did I look back now and I think every single time somebody says, Can we book in a one-to-one or can we have a catch-up or can we have a call? I mean, you know, having a call to me is catastrophic anyway. It's like, why can't you just put in a WhatsApp message? So, you know, it's like voice over time. I don't actually want to speak to people. Um, because when I speak to people, the outcome is really bad. But you know, it's I do remember those days, and it's I mean, I'm going through it and work on it in a very different way. But as a business owner, it was hard because you would automatically go to catastrophic. You are losing this client, you've done something terrible, you've and worse when it's social media because you're so in control of their life, really. You are like it's a big, it's important what you do because you've literally got their business in the palm of your hand. It's a huge responsibility. You can't make reputation is is mine, absolutely, and people don't take that seriously enough. Yeah, and I know you do, but I I see lots of like going off topping a little bit, but I see lots of social media managers like springing up, and I'm like, really, do you have any idea the responsibility that comes with this job? It is not just about writing a few nice social media posts, that's not how it works. But you know, when we when we do take it seriously and we know that you know somebody's reputation is in our hands, when we get those messages, it's terrible because you do you are terrified that you've done something really bad. And actually, the reality is if you let your logical brain kick in, you can look at the relationship you've got with that client and the work you've done with that client, and you know you're doing a great job, but there is something in your brain that is telling you that's not the case.

SPEAKER_03

But it also works as well, like so. I've sent um business proposals and quotes to people, and they've come back and said no. And I always go back and go, you know, do you mind explaining? Like, I I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not gonna fight you on the no, like your no is your no. But can you just explain, you know, what was it that made you say no? And and I love the ones that do come back to me. And I have had people come back to me and go, well, I've got a couple of quotes and I've just vibed better with somebody else, or I've you know, um their quote included this, for example, and it's like, okay, so mine does include that, but maybe I just wasn't overtly you know, explain the fact that that does include that, but it's not a problem. I won't go back and try and fight for the no if they said that they've gone with somebody else, but it's just that again, it's it's understanding that rejection. And I think we spoke about this way back when about you know, if if there is a no in your business, it's a chance for you to look at your processes and actually look at, but you need to have the answer because that rejection, just a flat no, and it's like, okay, can can I ask why it's a no? Can I but people who don't, I'm I'm really conscious now. If I say no to somebody, I'm like, I will always explain myself.

SPEAKER_00

It's funny in that because I remember in a lot of the coaching groups I used to do, we used to talk about sending feedback questionnaires out or you know, asking people, asking people for a testimonial. That was a huge one. I don't want to do that, I don't want to do that. And actually, part of the reason that people don't want to do it is because they're so afraid of what's gonna come back when actually, like you just said, when you've got something, when you've got ADHD in particular, having that clarity is really, really important, but you can't get that clarity unless you ask for it. You have to be clear yourself. And I always use and I do it myself all the time now because every course I run, we get immediate feedback, so it's part, it's a mandatory part of the qualification that they've got to give feedback. And it's a standing joke with me and the girl who arranges all the dates that she's brilliant in the office, and she always messages me just before the end to say, go on, then one, two, or three, did you rate yourself out of five today? Because I'm gonna wait for the feedback to come in and prove you wrong. She knows that I will rate myself because I'm terrified to rate myself a five, even though most of the time my students are giving me a five. But but I read, I don't just look at the score, I read every single bit of feedback because that's how I grow, it's how I learn, it's what I take. It's am I teaching them the right things? Did they pick up on the right things? And that whole being afraid of asking for feedback or asking for testimonies, it's insane, really, because that's how you learn, it's how you grow. It's even if it's not particularly positive, which by the way, most of the time it is really positive because you're good at what you do, even when you get something that isn't quite as positive, it's something you can work on. It gives you that clarity to do something.

SPEAKER_03

I've got a bit of a rant-low about reviews at the moment because I didn't realise at Google you can only leave one review for a business. Can you so I've I've got re I've got repeat customers, and so I send them that can you leave me a Google review? And they can't, they can only amend and edit their their review that they've already given me. Oh, that's really annoying. That's is really annoying. And I'm like, but what about repeat customers who want to give you a review on different products or services that you've offered? So now I'm like, right, Google review first, and then if they come to me for a second time, I'm like, push the LinkedIn reviews because you can live leave as many LinkedIn reviews, yeah, um, or ask them to just send me a testimonial in a video or an email or something like that, so I can put it on my website. But yeah, Google reviews, you can only need one per person per business. I'm like, what the it's really annoying. Carry on. What were you gonna say? Sorry.

SPEAKER_00

But I was just I was gonna be at it a little bit when you're asking for feedback, because the one thing you need to be careful of, because the one thing that we're really good at with RSD is we'll take that slightly off-positive comment that isn't particularly negative, and we will catastrophize that and we will think, oh my god, did that happen? That's the worst thing in the world. Um, and actually it's just like a minor tweak, or it's just something silly. And I was when I'm teaching on this, and I say, you know, you've all heard of the sandwich, I won't say what it is, but it's the positive, the negative, and the positive. It doesn't work particularly well with ADHDs because unless you're really good at the positive, because it doesn't matter what you said at the beginning, what you said at the end, our focus is absolutely on the middle. So your ending has to be incredibly positive to bring us out of that negative and we hang on to it. In fact, we're not even listening to what you said at the end.

SPEAKER_03

This is why I don't like the sandwich logic by calling it a sandwich. Because if you say it's a ham sandwich, okay, what kind of bread is it? Well, nobody cares because we care about the fact that it's a ham sandwich or a cheese sandwich or it's a plowman sandwich. Like that's what we care about. It's the middle bit. So of course we focus on the negative because you've called it sandwich logic, and that's why I don't like calling it sandwich logic.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and do you know what? I'm gonna use that. That's really clever. It's good.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, but we just call it bathtub logic because like if you think of the shape of a bathtub, you've got the the the lip on the edge, so you you know you've got the up, then the the down, then you go back up again. I love the fact that I'm like waving my hands to make a big U shape on the screen.

SPEAKER_00

Well, listeners can't see we should release these videos at one point because you the our actions that that we do are quite hilarious.

SPEAKER_03

We do talk an awful lot with our hands, but also on that, I mean I had I ran a course, um gosh, it was last year, and I asked for feedback and asked for the Google reviews and all that kind of stuff. And one person came back to me and said, I'm not gonna leave a Google review because I've got more areas to for you to improve than the positives because the positives were it was a great course, it wasn't right for them. Um, what they got from it wasn't what they wanted from it, they did get things from the course. Um they thought the fact that the level that the course was at was below the level that they were at, and while it just reinforced some things, it reminded them to do certain things, and I was like, okay, I can really understand that, and that gives me the opportunity to improve the marketing on it to actually say who is this for, update the you know, the event bright description to sort of you know, when I'm talking to people about who it's for and what it's about. Um, and yeah, and I you know, even though he said it's a really good cause, I got a lot from it, I've still not used that quote on my website or anything like that because my brain is like, yeah, but he said so many things that were in areas of improvement that I can't do it. I'm like, I can't pull out the good bits. I'm I'm you know, I'm I'm not sat in rejection, I'm like, okay, I'm I'm sat in understanding, but equally, I'm like, it means I've I've sort of hidden the the good parts away of that review.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, we're really good at doing it, and I'm really good at telling people how to deal with people with RSD, but I'm really bad at telling people with RSD how to deal with that. Other than one thing, I would give one tip, but I used to give this out in the coaching group a lot, and with my clients, I would always say, whenever you get a bit of positive feedback, you know how you've got your vision board. Well, my vision board was post-it notes that gave that I wrote all the feedback back out, and I didn't print them. It was really important that I wrote that feedback because for me, writing it helps me to understand it and take it in. So I would have um one of those kind of chalkboards, not chalk boards, you know, the like pin board things, chalk boards, chalk cork boards. Thank you, thank you, not chalk, no, champagne cork, yeah. Right, yes, okay. Oh, that makes sense. I never associated that before. It's the same material, it's just yeah, I never realized that, but yes, thank you. Thank you for making me look stupid. Um, there's my RSD coming in. Feel like a plonker now, not really. Um, so yeah, I used to have a cork board um above, and it was literally directly above my laptop. So I would have to look at it every day. And every time I got a nice comment or I had a nice review, or somebody said something nice to me, I would literally write it word for word, and I'd put the name of the person that did it and I'd pin it on that chalkboard. So every time I had, and I did train myself to do this, and it's not easy, it's really difficult. You have got to kind of start, you've got to kind of force yourself to believe it. But it's every time I got something that made me feel like, oh my god, what are they gonna say, or panic, or went into that catastrophizing, I'd look at that chalkboard. I was gonna say chalkboard again. I'd look at that cork board, and I'd be like, okay, you can't call it a pin board if the words are too simple. Whatever. But even though I didn't, it didn't necessarily make me stop thinking that the the end of the world was about to happen, it did start to make it was about retraining my brain. And it it and I'm not perfect at it, I'm not because I've just given you an example where even in the last 24 hours I've gone into meltdown, yeah, but it did make me think slightly different about how I do my job and how good I am. And I used to look at it and think, do you know what? It doesn't matter what is said because these people think I'm great, so I've done something right. Yeah, so I would kind of it would reinforce that I was good at my job. So it's perspectives. That's what I used to say to myself, it's just people's perspectives. So if somebody's gonna come back at you something negative, it's an opportunity to learn from it, but it's just their perspective. These people, yeah, I'm doing all the hand motion, sorry, you can't see it. These people on my cork board are saying, you know, you're awesome, you rock, you're amazing. And I you kind of need to cling to that. And I remember saying it to one girl, we had one girl in the tower tribe who, um, and you'll know who I'm talking about, I won't out her, but she's such a lovely, lovely woman, and she was so positive, she was so lovely. But you know, she did, she had a little bit of rejection in her life, she had a lot of rejection in her life, actually, and she found it really, really hard to, she was really low in confidence. Yeah. And I said this to her, and I said, You've got to do this, you've got to have this board, or even if it's on your desk and it's around your laptop, just write down every good review you get, just write it out. And she did start to do it, and it did help her to start to see how good she was. And I don't think there is like, I don't think there's any wild words of wisdom. You might have some, but I don't think there is like a big answer to this. There's no like solution to it. We are who we are, it comes with the territory, unfortunately. But there are things we can do to kind of negate it a little bit or to just kind of bounce off it a little bit. And I think you've got to hang on to all those positive things. You've got to, you know, start believing in manifesting because the worst thing that's gonna happen is it doesn't happen. The best thing that's gonna happen is it does. And actually, I think it does work, you know. I'm a huge believer in the universe. I do think what you put out you get back. And and I've noticed when I go downhill and I dare stop manifesting, I stop wearing my crystals and I stop, you know, really believing in the universe, it's not in my mind all the time, then things aren't great. And actually, and and it's not like any woo-woo thing, there is actual concrete, you know, logic to this. It's it's like the Audi situation, isn't it? When you start thinking about an Audi, all you see on the road is Audi's, and they've always been there, it's just you weren't looking for them, your brain wasn't looking for that. So that's all manifesting is as far as I'm concerned. It's your your brain isn't looking for the good stuff. So when you start manifesting, you're looking for all the good stuff, and then you suddenly start to see it. It works the same way, it's not some woo-woo science, it's actual, you know, it's the way our brain works.

SPEAKER_03

It is genuine science because it's you know, if you think about um it's actual science, not woo-woo. Yeah, sorry, yeah. Yes, it's actual actual science. Don't reject me on my words, no, no, um, but no, you know the the the oh my goodness, words stopped there. Did you we just had a bit of a glitch there? Um but the fact that your brain ignores the sight of your nose, despite the fact that you can always see your nose, until I said that, most people listening to this will have not thought about the fact that they can see their nose.

SPEAKER_00

But now I've now I can see the tip of my nose and it's like it's in my way now, thank you.

SPEAKER_03

But your brain works exactly the same as everything else, it's about that it will ignore something, but it doesn't need to take until somebody draws attention to it, until somebody points it out. Your your eyes and your brain and your mind will do that. Um, so it's not woo-woo science, it's it's factual, actual science.

SPEAKER_00

It is how the brain works. I think that that is probably our wild words of wisdom, actually, isn't it? It's like when you're looking for the negative, you're gonna see it, but when you're looking for the positive, that's what you will see too. It's not an exact science, it's not gonna work immediately. You're not suddenly gonna be like inundated with all these positive thoughts, and you're never gonna feel rejected again. It doesn't work like that. ADHD doesn't work like that. Wonderful if it did, it wouldn't it, Jess? If we could just click our fingers and we're done, we're okay. We're all we're all normal now, as people like to say. I I really hope I'm never normal to say it.

SPEAKER_03

She did say that in inverted commas.

SPEAKER_00

I did, they were inverted commas, just for anybody who's gonna get really offended or rejected at that. There were inverted commas. It was not a serious comment. Um, there was serious sarcasm in that. Um, but yeah, I think for me, it's just kind of it's again, it's giving yourself those tools, isn't it? Because I think, you know, and this goes across neurodivergence, and I always teach this, it's all very well telling other people how to manage somebody with ADHD or autism or dyslexia or dyspraxia, whatever condition. It's all very well saying you need to do this to help them. But actually, as neurodivergent people, diagnosed or not, whether we've just got you know the enormous amount of traits that we know that we it's likely that we or whether we have the diagnosis.

SPEAKER_03

The signs are all there.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it doesn't matter. If you if that's your lived experience, it's your lived experience. It doesn't matter whether you've got the actual diagnosis or not, but we also have to take responsibility for that. So if we're there are things that we're struggling with, we have got to find tools to help ourselves. We cannot rely on the world because just bear in mind we are at the very beginning of this conversation. It is still not understood. There are still so many barriers that we face. So, whilst other people aren't knocking those barriers, Down for us, we have to find ways to do it for ourselves.

SPEAKER_03

So as well, when you are in that moment when you feel that rejection, having people around you who understand who you can go, look, I'm feeling a bit you know, I'm feeling a bit lost here because I'm um I've had this comment, and it's you know, having people who you love to go actually be honest with them and go, I'm feeling this. Can you give me some reassurance? Can you is it all in my head? Um, you know, having people like that, because I remember there was um a situation while I was on holiday with Rob and he said something and he I completely shut down because that my RSD flared like a volcano. Find a word that's not swearing that I can input into that sentence. And I just immediately shut down, and just like the shutters came down in my eyes, and I was like, wow, that's an awful thing for him to say. I must be an awful person, blah blah blah blah. And like I sort of like picked myself back up and I kind of carried on. And Rob was like, Okay, what happened there? What talk me through that thought he went because I didn't say anything that I thought was particularly, and I was like, right, okay, I've I've had to work through it, and this is this is what it triggered. This was a thought that it triggered, this was the reaction that I had that I know that wasn't your intent. Um, that was that was the impact that it had on me, and he was like, Okay, how can I help to not do that again? And I was like, probably not, you're not gonna be able to do that, babe. But uh, thank you very much for trying. And and I will try and explain it when I mean.

SPEAKER_00

Sometimes that's all it needs.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And actually, you saying that, it's triggered some kind of thoughts with me. And I have to say, my direct manager is amazing. I mean, she knows me, she gets me. Um, she doesn't always get it right with me. And yesterday was a classic example because she's got incredibly high standards, incredibly high standards, and we quite often battle it out, and eventually I kind of raise me myself up to her standards, and it's the right thing to do. She's brilliant, she's absolute genius level. But yesterday I'd sent her something and she came back, she said, I just don't like it. And immediately I went into oh my god, I've done something terrible, it's awful. And she and then she she said, Um, I can't remember the exact words, she was like, It's not what it's supposed to be about, you know, you haven't understood the way it's supposed to be. And I couldn't get it in my head, and I sat here for a minute because this was obviously all over like messenger, it wasn't even an actual conversation. And I was like, right, you've got a choice here, and I knew her, so I know that she doesn't criticize me ever. She gives me constructive feedback, she never goes out to criticize me. In fact, I know she thinks I'm awesome, so you know, there is that knowledge there, but she I kind of sat there for a minute and I went, okay, I just need to be really honest. I get where you're coming from. I understand that it's not the standard you expect, but I'm struggling to understand what it is you need. So and I can feel, and she's I won't say that, but she has some of the same issues. Um, so kind of us back and forth can be quite difficult sometimes, but we always come round to it. And I just I said, I am not being arsey, I'm not being picky, I just need you to explain it to me. I just need some clarity around this, and then I'll go and do it, and it's fine. And then we kind of had that conversation, and everything was fine, and the book I produced was brilliant because it always is, but it always starts off, you know. I need that clarity, I need that understanding. But she is also the one that always says, and I remember we had a conversation not so long ago, and she'd said something to me, and I just went quiet. And she literally went, You just shut down, talk me through your process, talk me through your brain right now, because whatever I've just said has shut you down. So let's talk it through. And she forces me to process it verbally, she forces me to take it out of my brain and into the air, the universe, so she can talk through it with me. And she is brilliant at seeing it, she's brilliant at seeing when I'm going into that meltdown and shutdown. And she knows how to work with me. She knows that we can have those moments where she comes to me and it feels like a rejection, but then she can clarify it and it's good, it's all good. And having those people around you is really, really important, whether it's your boss or your loved ones, your husband, your wives, your partners, whatever it is, having and and I think if you haven't, then you need to take responsibility again of having that conversation with them and explaining how your brain works. This is not how you work, it is not an emotional thing, it is a processing thing, it's a brain thing, it's a scientific thing. And I think we need to stop, you know, go away from the emotional side of it. This is not about being emotional, it is actually how our brain works. We've got no control over that. Yes, we can retrain it, but that's years, you know. We've had years of training it to go this way, so it's going to take us years to train it the other way. It's not an overnight, you know. So surrounding yourself with people who will understand that and listen to that is really, really important as well. But you have to take the responsibility in telling them, otherwise, we're not being fair.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, no, I I completely agree with that. And um, you know, one of the the podcasters that I used I used to listen to, um, and I've I need to catch up with some of her stuff, um, she would talk about the fact that you know that the lizard in your brain is is you know, and you need to you need to train the lizard to shut up and choose your thoughts, but it's not an overnight process, as you said, it's it's it's a long, long process because that lizard has been in your brain and growing in your brain for you know since since birth, because you know, we don't think about consciously choosing our thoughts and our reactions until we get to a point like we're in at the moment where we fully understand our brains.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um, and I say fully understand but we don't, we're nowhere near it yet, but we're we're starting to. I'm gonna say this, and this is kind of I'm gonna shut up after this because I think I've like talked enough. Sorry. Oh no, I'm not sorry. Um somebody said to me, right, there is I I've got a friend and she's a mindfulness coach and she's brilliant. And and this is kind of an emotional thing, but obviously I work with the nervous system, so there's that side of it as well. The trauma informal side is the nervous system side, and your nervous system is connected to your brain, obviously, so it's all all relevant. But she said to me once, you've got to get to a stage where she said you're talking to your inner child because it's your inner child who learned these methods, and you need to say to her, Do you know what? I I know what you're doing, and this is your nervous system because your nervous system is working to protect you constantly, it's scanning for threats, there's loads of neuroscience around this. But she said, You've got to say to that little girl who sat inside of you, which is ultimately your nervous system, do you know what? I get what you're trying to do, I get you're trying to protect me, and I really appreciate it. But I've got this, I'm okay. You don't need to. You can go back in your box, my lovely, because we're okay. And it's like, and you've got then you're talking kindly to yourself, but you're also saying, I don't need you to protect me here because I can handle this. And that to me never left me, it always stayed with me, and it does fit with the whole neuroscience stuff that I've done.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah. No, I mean that was that's better than the analogy I use. I mean, I often use that gremlins in my brain, like my RSD is my gremlins in my brain, and I always imagine like the little gremlins and goggles and stuff from uh sleeping beauty from the like maleficent kind of dancing around the fire. Um, and yeah, I am very much like you know, get got walking. I'm like, get back in your cage you, but actually, I think approaching it from kindness might oh I might have to try that and just try it.

SPEAKER_00

I might approach it from anger, I might approach it with the gremlins now, you know, like you can give them a big F you Ox draw Oscar. That did tickle me. Sorry, still there, still tickling me. Um, but yeah, it it is, and that kind of changed me a lot. That was a bit of a you know, those light bulb life-changing moments when she said that to me. Suzanne, if you're listening, you know, I will never forget that. You're amazing, I love you. Um, but yeah, she said that and it was just it just never left me. I just thought it is my inner child, my inner child learned these lessons, you know, that little girl, and I can visualize her, I can see her, I can see when she was learning these lessons, and it's like I need to be kind to her, but I also need to prove to her that you know it's okay, we're good.

SPEAKER_03

That got deep. I did that that went in a completely different way to what I thought it was going to be when I suggested we talk about rejection and RSD today. Um all right though, I think. Yeah, yeah, I think there are words of wisdom in there.

SPEAKER_00

There are. I don't think we need to define what they are, but you know, I think they were.

SPEAKER_03

Well, we can let our audience just define them and they can message us on socials. So we are on Facebook and Instagram, and we also have a Facebook group. So you know, by all means, drop a comment each time you listen to listen, tell us what your wild words of wisdom are from episodes.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely, please do please come on in. I'm back in so I'm back in face. I still not I've still deleted it off my phone, so I've got to literally relaunch it every time. So it's a ball ache, but I am back in it, and I'm even advertising it now. You know, you had a pride, proud mumma moment the other day. You advertised it. I did. So I'm gonna be in the group as well. So let's, you know, I I think the group is really sad at the minute. It's got two followers in there, and I think I think it's me and you, if I'm honest. So come on, guys, come and join the wildly intentional group. Let's talk about these things, you know. Let's don't just listen to us rambling on. Tell us what you think, your experiences, your opinions. We want to hear them. So come into the group and have a chat. That that's why we set this up.

SPEAKER_03

We do answer fully, because when Nikki came into the the group chat, I did go back with a with a full answer. It wasn't just a short, quick answer. So, you know, by all means ask your questions. And until next time, we will see you next time.

SPEAKER_04

See you later.

SPEAKER_00

Thanks for spending this time with us on Wildly Intentional. If this episode sparks something for you, take it with you and act on it. Don't forget to subscribe, share, and come and say hello online. And remember, bold talk leads to big breakthroughs and no apologies.