Crafting Human™ Ep. 12 | Feel Your Way: Will Ayers on Haptics, Imperfection & What Design Forgets

The use of signs is disappearing. Cars are already driving themselves, and soon navigation may be something we stop looking at altogether.

For nearly a decade, Will Ayers, founder of Found, has been rethinking wayfinding and environmental graphics, building identity systems for some of the most recognizable spaces in tech and beyond across the world. His newest venture explores a haptic software technology that communicates directional wayfinding through touch alone. A tap on your right shoulder means right, a tap on your left means left. No screen. No voice. No shared language required.

In this episode of Crafting Human, we sit down to talk about what it means to design for a world where the visual infrastructure of cities begins to fall away, why intentional imperfection might be the antidote to a world starting to look the same everywhere, and how touch, the oldest interface we have, could become the most human technology left.

The conversation moves through:

• Why every glass tower in every city is starting to look the same and what craft can do about it
• The case for intentional imperfection in an era of algorithmic sameness
• How Will uses AI as a creative collaborator without handing over his judgment
• Why the difference between precision and perfection matters more than ever
• What design education must teach to equip the next generation to stay adaptable
• The quiet radicalism of building technology that helps people feel more oriented, not less
  
  

This is a conversation for anyone paying attention to how the built world is changing and wondering what gets lost, and what might be recovered, in the shift.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hi, thanks for listening to Crafting Human and being part of our creative crowd. If this conversation resonates with you, please share the episode. Liking and subscribing helps me to keep telling the stories of the creatives who bring soul into our world. If you want me to dive deeper on anything discussed today, let me know in the comments. I'd love to bring those conversations to you in future episodes. Now, on with the show. Today's guest is Will Ayers, designer, creative director, and founder of Found, a Los Angeles headquartered studio that is reimagining wayfinding, signage, and environmental graphics through technologies like GPS, haptics, autonomous systems, and AI. With over two decades of global experience and training that includes a master's from Cranbrook Academy of Art, Will's work asks a very timely question: how can design help us feel more oriented in our cities, our systems, and ourselves, especially as technology accelerates? I'm very excited to discuss with him today how emerging technologies can be deployed not to overwhelm us, but to make environments feel more intuitive, more humane, and more deeply felt. Welcome to Crafting Human, Will.

SPEAKER_03 1:33

Thank you so much. Always good to see you.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

Always good to see you as well. Before we get into all of this super cool stuff that you're working in and all the technology that you're incorporating into your creative practice, um I want to just take our listeners to, you know, who you are and how you, you know, came into um, you know, launching your own company and opening the studio. And um, can you tell us a little bit about your background and what shaped who you are today and your perspectives and design?

SPEAKER_03 2:08

Absolutely, absolutely. So um, yeah, quite a quite a few different uh aspects to to my background. I was born here in LA. Um I have quite a bit of educational background. I've an undergrad from the University of San Diego. So lived there for a little while. Um, I studied in Italy for uh half a year. So so learned craft, yeah, uh fashion, uh, language, art history there. Yeah. Uh a lot, a lot changed after living in Italy for sure. Oh, yeah. Came back, uh, studied a little bit at RISD and Mass Art. I was preparing for grad school. I was honored to be accepted at Cranbrook Academy of Art, which I spent two years, and um worked in a couple design studios, and then yes, started found um almost about eight years ago now.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

Okay. Was design always part of your kind of your DNA, do you think?

SPEAKER_03 3:08

I think so, yes. Um, my parents have some funny stories about me when I was young and being very organized with with certain things. Um, my mother is uh a Barthaldi, and as um some of the world knows, um Frederick Bartaldi. Well, for those who don't know, can you share? Uh Frederick Barthaldi designed the Statue of Liberty, and so um I have some lineage back to uh to to some great uh craftspeople.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

Okay, well that's amazing. Like making a mark in the world with the Statue of Liberty is in your lineage.

SPEAKER_04 3:47

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

That's amazing. Wow, I mean what a sense of pride in that, you know.

SPEAKER_03 3:53

Yeah, I I I've I've done uh fashion my background uh as well, and uh did spend a lot of time in Paris and and definitely felt connections back to him there.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

Okay, so this was not on the list of questions, but I have to ask, like, how did having and knowing that kind of heritage and kind of generational connection, how did that kind of maybe like empower you or fill you with you know just the confidence to move forward in design?

SPEAKER_03 4:28

Um I'm not sure. Um I think it's affected me at different parts of my life. Um my mom is very humble about it, she's very um talented and and creative in her way. I think once I knew probably more in my undergrad that I wanted to be in design, I didn't know how in what capacity. Undergrad was um uh photography and graphics, and I was making furniture and doing all these different kinds of design thing. I didn't know what part of design. But I always, I guess, knew in the back of my head that that uh Bartholdi was in my blood in in a certain way. And so I think it's it's just been very I don't tell many people. Sure. Um just because it's it's just my history, I guess. But yeah, um yeah, I think it's over.

SPEAKER_00 5:22

I mean, in a way, it's sort of in the subconscious part of like how we evolve and grow into like what we develop, maybe. Um I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 5:31

I I think so. I I I I hope the the work that our studio does helps make the world more beautiful, a better place, and and hopefully some of that uh is in my DNA that that and so I feel confident in in the work that we do for the world and the clients that that hire us that that have that. So I think just more more, I guess, humbly, just know that it's in the DNA somewhere. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:58

Okay, so it's just sparking this little moment um a memory of something that I just saw at the Santa Barbara uh Museum of Art last week. And it's this uh exhibition about Moneta Matisse and the Impressionist era with kind of how that Impressionism emerged at the time of modernism. But do you know that that's when the Statue of Liberty was also being made in that time period? Interesting. I actually took a photo of the art piece that shows people walking through that space where it was being fabricated. I'm gonna have to send it to you later after this show. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 6:37

Well, and it would just a side note is everyone hated it. I mean, it it it uh it it it wasn't really going. I mean, sorry, he also worked with Eiffel for the Eiffel Tower. Yeah. Um, and the Eiffel was was was hated, and he um uh Bretaldi tried to sell the Statue of Liberty to uh different countries. It was gonna be in Africa, it was supposed to be um in um uh the main park in in New York. So it was an interesting background.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

Um it's funny because I actually read that um as I was walking through that exhibit, that people did not like the impressionism at the time, impressionist art at the time. So anyway, it's a complete sidebar of our conversation, but fascinating. Thank you for sharing that. Um, well, I'd love to kind of go back to, you know, you said eight years ago you found found, which I love the name of your company, especially given what you're doing. Um what did you notice in the world, or maybe in the ways in which you were working in graphics and design and environmental sort of aspects? What did you notice that you felt was missing and what was the gap that led to you creating your own?

SPEAKER_03 7:58

Sure, sure. So uh, you know, work for some great studios before. Uh I think probably the biggest change I saw was technology. So signage and wavefinding traditionally uh, you know, kind of way back didn't really exist at all. People just kind of found their way. Yeah. Um when it when projects got larger, then people needed to find their way. Um, you know, identity and graphics were, you know, a lot of times handled by architects. Yeah. And so there was uh, you know, kind of the evolution of it, it could be gotten more and more refined globally. And then as I saw technology coming into play of how people actually navigate. So one of the things that really prouded me was uh the Waze app had come out, and people were using that to navigate themselves versus maybe looking at signs around cities, which are now kind of disappearing. Uh cars are driving themselves now, so even less that you need any of that. So that was probably a lot. Um some of my craft side from Cranbrook, I think, was probably the other half of wanting to just create really beautiful art um graphic design. And then also heavy, heavy tech. So I think that's where found in in Haptics, the new company is sitting uh between this craft and and tech. And so that's probably the two points that we saw.

SPEAKER_00 9:25

It's so interesting because people don't always think about art and the like this like integration of technology as a way of innovation, you know? Um so was there a moment in which you thought, yeah, this is you just said, did you have like an intuitive feeling like this is it, like this is the way in which I want to move forward and the niche space that I want to get into?

SPEAKER_03 9:53

I mean, some of it kind of goes back as we were talking earlier about the 10,000 hours, and you know, I was I was in the industry for a while. I didn't know I would end up end up in in the graphic signage world. Uh I had been, and so there was definitely a lot of talent there that I thought, you know, maybe a new studio I could offer, offer something new.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

Yeah. Um what's interesting to me is that, you know, with your art, fashion, and craft background, and then with technology, there's kind of this like, you know, it seems like they're opposed, you know, in the sense of the emotional connection you get through art and craft, and then you have like technology, which can feel very like void of any of that human aspects.

SPEAKER_04 10:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 10:43

Um was there ever a moment where you felt like I wanna I want to figure out how to make the two work? Because really, kind of in these like two spaces that seem disconnected, when you can cross-pollinate, that's where that innovation really comes out.

SPEAKER_03 10:59

Right, right. Yeah, it's an interesting point. So, I mean, if we go back in kind of pre-tech with with signage wayfinding per se, everything was static. Yeah. When the digital signage came out, obviously, the airport things are dynamic. So that kind of came out. But yeah, the more we've moved to screen focused design, I think the less we've we've uh uh gotten back to the craft and the understanding. I mean, when you look at you know websites, they all kind of look the same now. The phone designs are the same, everything's becoming kind of same, same, same. And when you're in that screen world, it becomes kind of void of of some of this, you know, craft, craft and art. And so I think uh the world still struggles with it, we still struggle with it, how to uh give this new digital world that we're in more personality, more character, more craft.

SPEAKER_00 11:52

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting, and I and I what I'm really appreciating of what you're saying is just this honesty of like we're still struggling with how to make it uh feel like the digital side to be the means in which we can feel more connected, but somehow it feels like we're still like I feel like the struggle just feels even more acute now than it has even when it first emerged. So before we actually kind of talk about that, I wanted to maybe talk about like the physical world that you are working in. Sure. You know, and I know um, you know, so much of what you do with the graphics and the branding and signage, even with like the wayfinding, it's you know, um, you know, it's about placemaking, storytelling, identity. And in that, how have you like how do you kind of can you tell take us through the process in which what are all those considerations in the kind of the real world, right?

SPEAKER_03 12:58

Sure, sure, sure. Yeah, so on that, on that side of our our business, you know, we've worked a lot, uh, so primarily most of our businesses in California during uh kind of the last boom. We worked a lot with the tech companies and and they they want to tell their story either to the outside world or to their own you know staff internally.

SPEAKER_02 13:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:19

And so we've had the opportunity and blessed working with some amazing people to really look at the entire interior environment, primarily in this, in this particular case of storytelling, and uh, you know, working with them, trying to extract from their brand. Sometimes the brands are very clear and they know what they're doing. Yeah. Some brands, these startups, uh, you know, some muse are stuff, they have no idea. So we really help create the brand for them. Oh, and create these these stories and and working with them. So a lot is heavily integrated with the architecture. So, you know, instead of maybe just having a room sign here and a wayfinding sign, we really try to look at the whole environment, depending on on the project. But the core really comes back to, you know, kind of the place, yeah, you know, the the the culture, the people, and then we tell the story from there.

SPEAKER_01 14:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:14

So uh none of our work really has ever been uh duplicated within our own studio. We always create something from from scratch, yeah. And that's always the core that we start from um the the place, if if it's the city, if it's the if it's the sub area, who's using it. Um and we and we delve in very, very, very deep into that. So the story is um intuitive, it feels comfortable and and it's right for that particular audience.

SPEAKER_00 14:45

Can you give an example maybe uh or share an example of maybe one of like your tech clients you've had where they've they were like, whoa, this is they just sort of have this epiphany or maybe like a paradigm shift in like what they're seeing from what you've designed?

SPEAKER_03 15:01

We've had lots of interesting um uh pitches and feedback. Uh-huh. Sometimes we'll we'll kind of go over here and they'll they'll like it and love it, and we go down that world. Sometimes it, you know, it's too far. I mean, I would rather um you know come up with something very, very creative and then you know have to pull back if we need to. Yeah. Um, I don't have uh an example on the top of my head. Okay. Uh we have lots of different projects and and and backgrounds, but I don't have one in particular. Um but yeah, I I I I think we we do our best to understand who who's using the space, how we want to use how they want to use it, how we want to tell their story.

SPEAKER_00 15:45

Yeah, yeah. How do you think like, you know, do you feel like there is a place for a lot of the you know, the graphics, the environmental design, the wayfinding and signage? Do you think that or what do you think is its place in how we identify ourselves or connect to the space, just even as you know, human beings?

SPEAKER_03 16:13

Yeah, I think and we were talking a little bit earlier, I think there is a push for for more craft. So um Pharrell's um late a show a couple days ago uh for his men's wear show uh in Paris, he created a uh a home with within the within the show.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:34

And he had mentioned that 10% had had kind of human error.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:40

And I thought it was brilliant, amazing, lovely. One example of a project that came to me is uh is we had the same we had the same idea. It was uh biotech, uh, office project. And so the main identity on the outside essentially had uh I think there was about like 80 different um posts, and every single post was different, and it really was uh talking about this evolution, this change that certain sciences and technologies as tons of errors. Yeah, and you make that error and then you change. And so we definitely tried to add that craft and art because everyone can now make perfect letter sets and perfect arrows and perfect everything, yeah. And now the whole world looks the same. Yeah, and so how do we go back? Uh another project that we're working on now, we're making some sculpture rings, very simple, but they're they're complex curves in both directions, and essentially talking about a handcraft, like we all can make a perfect circle or an arc and stick it in a project. So I think it for us, I think we're pivoting even more with technology, getting so banal and uninteresting in and actually going the other way, more craft, maybe more error. Yeah. Um, I mean, obviously intentional error, but maybe not intentional. Maybe that's a a place that we need to go.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

Well, it's interesting that idea of exploring imperfection, right? And embracing that because no human being is perfect. And maybe in that seeing that there's that feeling of oh, this resonates. You know, and then it may not even be on a conscious level, you know, but it's just sort of this um I find that interesting that you're you're embracing that. And I completely agree. I think there's sort of like a plastic kind of uh what's the word? Like this plastic perfect, yes, right? That is not um resonating for people, you know.

SPEAKER_03 18:48

Yeah, and and it's happening in in in all aspects of the world, but I mean architecture, I mean you look at the same glass tower in every city in the world now. Yeah, you know, you used to go when you go, you know, when you go to Kyoto, it's Kyoto. When you go to you know Buenos Aires, it's it's it's that vibe and look. Um now it's the same glass and steel uh tower everywhere. And it's it's hitting every industry. Yeah, and and that that's what's happening with tech period, AI, things like that. Yeah. And so yeah, I think if we can reverse course and go uh a little bit back to craft when when applicable, you know, we do graphics and graphic arts, so I think there might be a little bit more in that. I mean, if you get to a certain architectural design, you need, you know, the door to stand up and things like that. Of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

Um but I mean, and I think, but it's not really, I don't think we're maybe just to clarify, maybe this is just my way of clarifying, but it's like there's an element of precision, right? Which is different than precision in design, excellence in design, which is different than perfect, right? And perfect being also same across, right? So it's I mean, it's a whole nother notion that we could probably spend like a lot of time talking about. But I think it's it's interesting because even in craft, even if it's there's the aspect of imperfection because it's handmade, if there's still a level of excellence and precision and quality that is there that is actually missing from perfect.

SPEAKER_04 20:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

Right?

SPEAKER_04 20:34

Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

So anyway, I just wanted to I kind of just came into my my thought. I was um, you know, it's interesting we're talking about this whole physical world, handmade, touched, um like from the heart kind of craft and art and design, because a lot of what you do actually, and I wanted to talk about actually some of this idea of how exploring like technology as a humanizing force, um, especially with this new software that you've developed. Um, can you share a bit about that with our listeners? And maybe start with like what is haptic technology and what I don't think most people even know what that is.

SPEAKER_03 21:24

Sure, sure, sure. So, yeah, so this came to to me quite a few years ago where we've been working on it for a while. Um a lot of the technology is there. We are in the process of uh speaking with lots of different brands on it. So haptic uh technology itself essentially has a actuator, a physical physical element. Our phones have it, other objects now have it, some steering wheels have it, and it essentially shakes, so it vibrates. Yeah. And uh so what we've done background in wayfinding. Looking at tech, liking them together. Essentially, we've created a new software, a new company that we take information, we've created a new language, and then that uh communicates to the haptic uh actuators, responders to to vibrate. So, example, scooters currently don't have haptics, and so um we're talking to a major company and uh to to make your decisions. So instead of pulling your phone out of wherever you're trying to get to, it vibrates, it tells you to turn around, you've arrived, left, right, things such as that.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

That's so cool. Like, so you're taking just to make sure I'm understanding correctly, you're taking this like haptic technology of the vibrations, incorporating that into the vehicle as such.

SPEAKER_03 22:57

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

To help make it feel like an intuitive navigational experience.

SPEAKER_03 23:03

Correct, correct.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

Oh my gosh, that's so cool.

SPEAKER_03 23:06

So so the start is is navigation given the background. And so we've created that technology, and so this uh can be for scooters, bicycles, helmets, um, walking stick for people with uh site impairment. Um so essentially anyone that's going anywhere uh can have this tech and they don't have to look at a screen, they don't have to listen to anything, and they don't have to see anything. The other beauty with this technology is that there is there is only the language of touch that you have to learn. Yes, that that has to be something learned, but uh this can apply to um anywhere. So if you're in Tokyo, if you're back in Buenos Aires, wherever you are and you don't speak that language, it's okay because the all of this is tapping your direction. Left, right, you've arrived, uh anything complex. So you can now travel the world and and uh and find your way.

SPEAKER_00 24:08

That's I'm just like processing everything you just shared because that's amazing. You've somehow taken this very I don't know if you want to call it two-dimensional, only like visual sense oriented way of navigating and are like kind of helping people to fully like embody it in a way. Is that do you think is that a correct statement?

SPEAKER_03 24:34

Well, what's interesting about it is that it it so when we when we say we are reading a um traffic signal and we're reading if it's red, there's obviously science behind color theory of why it's red, yellow, and green. Our our minds, uh, our eye to our mind is fastest in yellow, and well, that's why the yellow is yellow and red, etc. And that's why that exists, and that's fine. But there's the process time. But also, if I say when you leave here, you'll go up Mohole and you tick a right, right? Yeah. And then your brine, your, your brain has to process this. Okay, so I go left and go right. That's all brain, brain, brain, brain, brain, eyes, eyes, eyes. So this technology is just touch, touch, touch. If I touch your right shoulder, you know it's right. Yeah, there's no process of like, oh, I want to go here, then it's right. And you have to think, or if you have to visually look at a sign to understand you're at a hospital, you don't know where you're going. This is just touching you. So it it removes so much um unknown. Um, yeah, it it removes so much of things that you don't need. And it goes really back to the the human and and and and touch. It's pretty good.

SPEAKER_00 25:49

That's amazing. I mean, even for myself, when somebody gives me a direction, I have to repeat it. Okay, go straight to the left and then to the right, first or on the right. You know, I have to repeat it, and then as I'm walking, straight to the right, and then first or on the right, you know, and I and I end up telling myself this. And I mean, maybe others don't have that experience, but for me, but I completely hear what you're saying because now it just feels like urban city centers are so hectic and crazy, you know, there's like the car zipping by, like, you know, buses, whatever it may be, like there's so much stimulation that and sometimes I'm even like, wait, which way? Which way is this? You know, it says to make a right at the street. Like, where do I even go? Am I making a left or a right to get to that street?

SPEAKER_03 26:42

You know, and well, just play through your mind the last airport trip you took.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

Yeah. Chaos.

SPEAKER_03 26:48

I mean, there's great systems and they're all you know 100% visual, but it's always chaos. Absolute chaos. And the gate changes, and and this is global. This is, I mean, the whole world has uh lots of very complicated airports. So yeah, we think this this can be. And so first phase is navigation. Yeah. Next phase is um it can be entertainment, it can be sports, how people um learn how to throw a ball, how to hit a ball.

SPEAKER_00 27:16

Oh, like when you release, like it might like pulse and tell you like that's the moment that optimizes like the force of a throw or something.

SPEAKER_03 27:26

Yeah. Because if I just say move your arm left, right, up, down, means nothing in space.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:32

Because you can't understand space without a touch. Golf is all touch.

SPEAKER_00 27:37

I'm so you know, when I was preparing for this conversation, I was really like fascinated by this idea of like the haptics and touch. But what you're saying is so true. Like, we don't understand when you're saying something like when you're throwing it in the air, this is when you're gonna release. Like to have somebody explain it to you versus viscerally experiencing that in your body for the moment of when the release happens, it's a totally different coaching and learning experience.

SPEAKER_03 28:14

Absolutely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

Well, and it's so intuitive, you know, what you're talking about is really like what you said, we were born craving touch, right? That touches how we are wired as human beings. It's so intuitive, it's like just so intuitive and so human.

SPEAKER_03 28:35

Um and if we take a look at where we are as of 2026 and the power of the screen, what's happening with children, what's happening with with even just young adults and adults, yeah, is this obsession. I mean, it's a very, very addictive object, and we're getting farther and farther away from other humans and meeting people and talking to people, having these relationships. And so if there's a way that this this touch and the tech, because we're never getting away from that kind of tech, but if the touch can take away and assist, maybe that will make the world a little better.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

Yeah. I mean, it's just I mean, that's it's such a it's such an intuitive yet profound thought in today's day. But what I love is that rather than shrinking back from technology, right, in your world of that you were, you know, especially like your Cranbrook kind of um foundation, right, which is art and design and human touch and human craftsmanship, right? That rather than pulling away from technology, I think it's so um it's just so profound that you've decided or you've seen how to bring these two worlds together in a way that can make it feel more human using technology and um trying. Trying, yeah, but it's I mean, just that the idea would even occur to you to you know you saw the opportunity and the technology, and you're tapping into how and where the world's going with tech. And are you guys incorporating this technology even in the work that you're doing at Found?

SPEAKER_03 30:29

Oh, uh not at this time, no, no, it's a separate venture completely. Okay, yeah, okay. Because the the clients that we were going after are are um very, very large scale global scooter companies, automotive companies, things like that. Okay. So yeah, very different, very different world. Um there might be some overlap in the airport world potentially. Sure. But I think it's still going to probably be based more around uh large corporations for haptics.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

Okay. Yeah. That's so cool. What is what are you guys doing maybe at found if you can just kind of I'm kind of deviating a little bit from the haptics, but at found, um, I know you you go across all different areas of design. Um are you using it? I mean, just I'm always curious what other designers are doing with AI and how you're leveraging it in your practice as a tool.

SPEAKER_03 31:28

And absolutely. So you've had the the um hopefully fortune of joining one of our AI salons, our found salon. And so that was months ago, was that? It's probably a year ago.

SPEAKER_00 31:42

Yeah, and it's changed so much.

SPEAKER_03 31:43

It's changed so much.

SPEAKER_00 31:45

Even since then.

SPEAKER_03 31:46

So that was an idea I had, I think about seven years ago now. And so that's when it started. It's probably been maybe one a year minus a few for COVID. Yeah. Um, but that was also very, very early on with you know, my mission statement for Found, which is now eight years old, yeah, was kind of uh a groundworks for for um the next 20 years. So I was using AI very, very early, had some advanced um copies of open AI's tech, and you know, different kinds of autonomous haptics came many, many years later, but that mission statement still holds true of of kind of where uh I'd go. So, yes, we definitely use a lot of AI and and maybe even more um recently, even on a on a recent project. I think it really pushes us as a tool. Yeah it's not replacing anyone, yeah. Um it's uh it's just only enhancing and and helping us. And it's been pretty incredible to continue to push and it helps us write, it helps us um essentially create new new ideas and concepts that don't exist, and then we push that through and we push and we push, and we end up in in a in a place so far away that we just we love. Yeah, we love because I I think everyone has a Pinterest board, yeah, and they say this is you know, this is uh this is what we want, or and and so we're regurgitating the same, and so what we we try to do and we're pushing more into this craft is interesting enough using AI to make more interesting things when most people are saying it's kind of downgrading. I think it depends on how you use it as a tool.

SPEAKER_00 33:39

Yeah, yeah, interesting. Well, and you know, I think the recurring kind of conversations I keep hearing is it's all about the prompt, right? And how you're using it. So that rather than letting it do your creative thinking, you're inputting your idea, letting it quickly ideate for or execute that ideation of it, right? And then seeing we like it, we don't, oh, this is garbage, and then you're able to then ideate something else or build off of that. Is that what you're saying? 100%. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 34:17

So generally what I hear is the same thing. Oh, it's just garbage and it's it's too this, it's too that. So what I'm finding is that five, ten percent, twenty percent of the errors is totally wrong. Yeah, which is amazing. Like I recently just said make a very large number two out of acrylic for a sign, a level of uh elevator, and it made the most insane thing you could ever imagine.

SPEAKER_00 34:43

And there was just literally good or insane bad? Bad. Oh, terrible.

SPEAKER_03 34:47

And so if you said, Oh, that's what we do, no, it's it's absolutely terrible. But this 5% on this back end thing was amazing that I've never seen, it's never been built, it's never been designed because this thing doesn't know what it's doing.

SPEAKER_01 34:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:00

And so then we took that and we created something else, and then we pushed and pushed and pushed and pushed, and then we ended up in this amazing place because I found that that 5% in there.

SPEAKER_00 35:12

What I really appreciate about what you're saying is that you're not giving over your creative agency to the AI, right? You're you have all these years of experience, all this kind of your own intellectual property of you know, kind of creative thoughts. Like there's a there's like a thought pattern that's happening, and then somehow it takes you down this rabbit hole, but that happens even if it's just like we're ideating together, right? You're in a right, you're in a conference room, and everyone's in this like ideation phase brainstorming, and there's literally like a hundred bad ideas among the two that's good, yeah, right. And then you eventually take that those two ideas, and then you sort of you know explore it a bit more. But basically, that the concept of that happening in real time is essentially the way that you're using you and your teams are all using AI. Is that correct? Yeah, okay, yeah, and that's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 36:19

It's a tool for sure, it's not solving anything for us.

SPEAKER_01 36:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:24

Um, and yeah, it might even take us back some steps, but in those steps, we're finding these just amazing nuggets that then push us so much farther than looking at the next Pinterest board.

SPEAKER_00 36:36

Yeah. So I mean, I think even the Pinterest board is like a regurgitation of other people's AIs that, you know, you're like, oh yeah, I kind of saw that already. You know, and now I've seen that like a hundred times.

SPEAKER_02 36:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:48

Right? So then are you have you explored how like AI and haptics might merge together at all? Or have you thought about any of that?

SPEAKER_03 36:57

It will definitely be in there in in some of these uh the early phases of of funding.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:03

Uh if if you don't have AI, they're not interested. And so that's kind of where we are right now. Um lots of investments in that. We have not done that, but yes, it will have to 100%. So we have, as I said, phase one, phase two might be entertainment, it might be sports. Uh, the next uh could potentially get into medical and and um how it could help in surgeries and things like that, of being able to have a haptic touch and a feel in that. So there's there's a world there for sure that needs um touch as you're as you're doing different kinds of things. Um and then with that, yeah, there there would be, you know, probably huge back end of AI to help um input that. And then the language we'd create would sit on top. So yes, for sure, we're just trying to get this first phase off the ground and then we look to others. But yeah, it it would, there's too much in there. There's there's um there's too much good data to not extract from.

SPEAKER_00 38:04

Yeah, you know, and as we talk about the technology side, I do want to go back to kind of where we talk about um like beauty and art, artisanal kinds of that bringing that into the high-tech world as you're doing, you know, which I you know, just being who you are and your your background, I'm sure that those are all gonna come together. It's not just about the haptic technology because um do you maybe just as a from your personal opinion, can you share why you think that the beauty and the art is still so important as a I mean, I might call it a functional requirement, right? Versus just as a decorative add-on. Right, right, right. In in the kind of work that you're doing.

SPEAKER_03 39:00

Yeah, it's an interesting question. It's um I think it definitely depends on on the project and the client. I mean, some just need some good wayfinding and and that's that. And we make it go left, go right. Yeah, and we make it nice, and and that's that. There's some that we come in and and they want us to really create a story. Um sometimes that story is very you know pragmatic and very clean, and and the story just needs to be said. Sometimes it's the opposite, it's extremely abstract, and maybe we push really, really hard on on the beauty side. So I guess for found, we we really just look at what I mean. We uh from the work, you see there's nothing that's replicated or the same. You know, we are a consultant. We we don't we don't have uh a look. There's a few architects, I won't name their names, but I just really appreciate that they they have a very different look. Um could be the same for some fashion designers that I love. That you can't really tell, you can kind of somewhat tell, but that each project's different.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:11

Uh I think we pride ourselves on that, and so we look at each project and give what what the project needs. Um I mean, back to the beauty, yeah. I think that's just kind of inherent, is that you're talking about Bartholdi. It's just it's just in the DNA. Yeah. Try to, you know, push the beauty no matter what, yeah, as much as we can. I mean, there obviously there can just there can be beauty in um in really clean graphic design. Sure. You know, things like that. Yeah. So yeah, I think beauty always just kind of has to be there.

SPEAKER_00 40:44

Yeah, I agree. I agree. Um, I did want to ask you, um, you know, as we you and I, we were also part of um, you know, the this board of advisors that was developing um, you know, kind of a new curriculum or a strategy for how what future of design education could look like.

SPEAKER_04 41:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 41:13

Where are you seeing, because I think you have such a strong pulse on like this integrated world, right? Like, I mean, and I know and and you know, it's it's not new news to say that cross-pollination of different kinds of creatives, different industries, different, you know, like you're like you're doing technology and what would have been traditional signage wayfinding, right? That that's like where this like kind of this innovation is occurring. What do you think needs to be just the mindset of educators and even like the new generation of designers that are kind of coming up in this, you know, in this, I mean, and the world is changing so fast too.

SPEAKER_03 42:00

Yeah, absolutely. And it was an honor to to be a part of that program and and and uh being there with you and a few other really brilliant people. That was that was very uh that was fantastic. And yes, my perspective input was was um yes, being being very active in the design world, uh being active in the tech world, um, and then and then obviously the history of of Cranbrook was a big role. Um I think uh you know the person leading that also also went to Cranbrook. So we had some kind of core there, and then and then where are we in 2026? And I thought what was created was pretty incredible, groundbreaking. Yeah, I would say. Um if if that comes out to the world, it'll be a better place.

SPEAKER_01 42:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:52

I know it really was pushing some boundaries, and then it's not uh all schools aren't ready for for all of that, and I don't I don't think that the the world is totally ready, but I do think uh it's needed. Yeah. And looking at, you know, my my practical, this is going back many years now, was just graphic design.

SPEAKER_01 43:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:14

And that was it, and it was great. And then now Cranbrook was a little bit different. Yeah. Um, I mean, we we got a a table, a chair, and a studio, and that was it. There was no classes, there was no, there was uh no grades, there was just you you create your world. Yeah, and so that was also very uh very different. But again, it it came back to just you know kind of learn learning things, and I think today we have to know so much more. Yeah. And I think that's what design schools need to fill in. Um we need ethics, we need empathy, we need uh how to run a business, how to talk to people, how to pitch your ideas. I mean, it is it is it is a very Complicated world, we need to know more about the environment, we need to know about the materials you're using. I mean, even in my early graphic days, I didn't know anything about anything that we were building. Yeah. Because it just it it it wasn't really taught. Yeah. And it's it's just too important now, you know, the waste of the things that we make, especially in say fashion. Yeah. And um, yeah, so I think I think design schools have to step up kind of tenfold uh to create designers of of the future, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_00 44:30

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting what you're saying because you just mentioned fashion, and it's very interesting because your background is, I mean, I started out in graphics, but you went into fashion. I mean, you were doing leather goods, weren't you?

SPEAKER_02 44:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 44:49

And then now you're in signage, wayfinding, graphics, environmental design, technology, and developing a software technology on that, on top of that. It's like a SaaS technology, right?

SPEAKER_02 45:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 45:03

And so it's just very interesting to me. It's not just a thing, even as in your own career, what I'm, you know, really seeing is this um evolution across multiple different kinds of disciplines, similarly all connected in that they're about, you know, um related to design and serving humanity in that way, right? But you're right, I totally agree. I think that designers of the future almost kind of need to be like that too, right?

SPEAKER_04 45:37

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 45:38

An expert in some specific nation science, yeah, business, you know, leadership. And um what do they call it? A polymath? I think that's what they call it. You know, like being kind of well informed in all kinds of various different disciplines or areas that, you know, that may be of a particular specialty or niche.

SPEAKER_03 46:04

I think, yeah. And so a throwback to what we're actually uh sitting on um the Eams chairs. Yeah. So the Eams went to Cranbrook and they came out here and changed the world. And obviously, because of my Cranbrook time, I've been huge fans. But also they came out of the design department in Cranbrook, and it was about learning everything. They did film, they did graphics to differentiate, they did okay. I mean, they did everything, right? And they kind of started, and then uh after that, it was like if you're a good designer, you should be able to design everything, if it's chairs, if it's glassware, if it's a watch. Yeah. And so I had that. I I won't say uh, you know, I'm an expert in in all that. Yes, I've I've dipped my toes in a lot of different things, but um I think having, you know, Virgil, I think, said this um at some point in his uh career of having just multiple projects at at one time. Yeah. So if you have a little bit of this, you have a little haptics, you have a little, you know, fashion, you have it really helps kind of uh cross understand and and you know, for say the fundraising and the haptics, the tech side, well then how does that relate to you know my install of uh of a tech company over here and how they're operating? And so yeah, understanding all that and and that kind of horizontal and vertical movement of of of business and design, I think is um something that I probably learned at at Crabbrook. Yeah, and I'm I'm interested in.

SPEAKER_00 47:35

Yeah. And what I find very fascinating with your uh and interesting with your story is you're even going back to like how the haptics came about, or even how you found found, right? Why you created the company is because you saw there was like a gap in the market, you saw that there was technology was moving a certain way, and you connected these dots to be like in this really cool niche space, you know, working with all kinds of different designers, architects, landscape people, or you know, right, right, right. Product designers, software developers.

SPEAKER_04 48:14

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 48:15

So it's really cool to, you know, and I think that's and I and I appreciate you kind of sharing that of that part of your background because I think, you know, probably, and I'm it's just a guess, but I would say you didn't ever even think that haptics was gonna be part of your life when you first started in graphic design.

SPEAKER_03 48:36

No, no, no, not at all. Not even close. Yeah. It's funny, I was just talking to my my my parents the other day, maybe it was yesterday, and said they were saying, you know, where are they obviously are my parents, so they've watched my career, and yeah, you started here and then you went here and then you went here. And he said it just yesterday, I think. He said, Well, but now you have many more years in where that story is gonna go. So it's true, and and how much tech is changing, I don't know, but it but it's a little bit too of where we are in this world. I think people have many, many jobs, not even just jobs, but many careers. And yeah, and I think just um I think one of the things that came out of our our our school creation was um making sure that you're extremely flexible, extremely adaptable to definitely to change. I mean, they're saying now for sure, anyone that's born now the job doesn't exist. And that started happening, I don't know, maybe 15 years ago. And so pivoting, understanding a lot of different things, I think is going to be critical for not just designers, but anyone in in in school.

SPEAKER_00 49:46

This is totally an off-the-cuff question here, but like, what do you think has helped you to be able to be so fluid and be able to adapt and pivot?

SPEAKER_03 49:58

Uh any entrepreneur say risk. Um keep risking. Because if you if you stay in the same lane, it's one of my biggest fears is staying in the same lane and the same work and the same scared to death. Because uh we'll fail. I'll fail.

SPEAKER_01 50:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:19

If you're not com if you're not adapting, learning, changing, moving, you'll fail. Because this isn't 50 years ago. Yeah. You could have a company and you could, you know, it just doesn't, it's just we're not in that world anymore.

SPEAKER_00 50:31

The 40 years at one company days are definitely no more.

SPEAKER_03 50:35

Yeah. And so for me, just knowing that and it's only going to accelerate even faster and faster and faster.

SPEAKER_01 50:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:41

I mean, AI could literally take 90% of the jobs within X amount of years. So if you process that, I can't have my same company. Yeah. Or companies. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I think that's the core is adapt as fast as you can. Yeah. And keep and keep changing. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:59

Well, um, I have really enjoyed this conversation. And I think um, I hope this conversation sparks all kinds of I don't even want to say debates, but just like a deeper thinking about, you know, some of like for a lot of the creatives who are listening, you know, about um, you know, just where and where and how they want to grow and adapt to this world. Um, but just to wrap it up, I like to wrap up with like a rapid fire question.

SPEAKER_03 51:31

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_00 51:31

Okay, I'm excited. And you know, there's no wrong answer. It's just your own perspectives. Okay. Um, what is one thing you still feel like you're a beginner at?

SPEAKER_03 51:45

I'm a beginner at? Mm-hmm. Well, to that last, if this is a rapid question, rapid answer, the last thing, everything. I still will approach a project with very, very, very uh young eyes. I'll take, I'll take, I'll take the 20 plus years of of all that and just know it intuitively. We talk a little bit about intuitive design, and then just fresh eyes and come at it.

SPEAKER_00 52:14

I love that because that childlike curiosity is such a like it's a lost thing on us adults, you know?

SPEAKER_04 52:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:24

And yeah, I love that. Um, what do you think humans are forgetting how to do?

SPEAKER_03 52:32

Talk to each other.

SPEAKER_00 52:35

So true.

SPEAKER_03 52:36

Just period. Now that starts to age me for sure. Yeah. But I I I do think people still need to talk to each other. I think tech's great.

SPEAKER_00 52:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:46

But I just, yeah, I think people forgot to talk to each other.

SPEAKER_00 52:50

Yeah. Well, and that's why I appreciate being able to, you know, we live in the same geographic same like a couple hours back and forth of difference, but it's still close enough that I wanted to meet in person because there is a different energy and kind of a flow in conversation when you meet in person, right? Like versus just um anyway. I'll leave it at that. Um, what do you hope never gets automated?

SPEAKER_03 53:22

Oh wow. Fantastic question. Never to get automated. Well, I think the question is everything will be automated. And then maybe that was your question. What of those things? I don't have an answer. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 53:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:45

Because I guess my mind has been that everything's automated. So I I guess I hadn't thought that something wouldn't be. I assume everything will be. So I don't have an answer. I don't have an answer.

SPEAKER_00 53:56

All right. Well, and for you from your perspective, what does crafting human mean?

SPEAKER_03 54:04

Oh, well, thank you for having me. It's been fantastic. Uh love what you're doing, love the idea, and hence, you know, why I'm why I'm here. Um you know, in in being being a designer, cre creating something so we so we create things, you know, for the world. That's what designers do. And so, yeah, if there's if if like with the with an artist per se or a or a designer, they're putting their craft into it. And so even the worst of design is is is crafted human work, you know. Yeah. Uh but I guess from my perspective of of you know caring who you're who you're giving it to and and who it's for, and and really investing that time. Because some of these things are are temporary, some of these things are very permanent, yeah. The work that that we do. And so yeah, I would say just for for the cribs, uh put as much as you can in into your work. Yeah, the care, yeah, yeah, and the and the craft because because so much of it's is disappearing. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:18

Well, um, I would definitely say that you are a very innovative and creative individual. And I hope this conversation inspires many others who are trying to figure out a way to build a bridge between tradition and innovation and still preserve that sense of humanity, you know, and all of that, and maybe cultivate a new depth of how we experience our humanity. Absolutely. So well, thank you so much. Thank you. It's been such a pleasure.

SPEAKER_03 55:52

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 55:52

Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for listening. If this episode spoke to you, I'd love for you to join our creative tribe. Follow, like, and subscribe to help this community grow. Your support helps me to tell the stories of the creatives who bring soul to our world and create meaningful experiences. Thank you for being here and keeping the circle of creativity alive and connected. I'm so grateful to each and every one of you.