The Devil Emails at Midnight: Mita Mallick Talking Bad Bosses

Everyone has had bad bosses. But have you thoroughly considered the effect that they are having on our workplace cultures, our team productivity, or even our mental health?

In this first episode of Season 2, Dr. Michael Baran interviews bestselling author and corporate changemaker Mita Mallick about her new book, The Devil Emails at Midnight: What Good Leaders Can Learn From Bad Bosses. According to Mita, bad bosses are not bad people, but they often do bad things. And those things have dramatic consequences for our workplaces. We can learn from patterned ways of bad bossing in order to build better leaders, therefore improving our workplace cultures, our productivity, our teamwork, and our life satisfaction. The conversation is highly entertaining and also practical and inspiring. If you have had a bad boss, you will love this episode, and if you are a boss or leader, you definitely need to listen!

Resources:

The Devil Emails at Midnight

Reimagine Inclusion

Mita Mallick LinkedIn

Mita Mallick Website

Mita Mallick TikTok

Video of interview

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Is your company struggling navigating through high turnover, toxic leadership, or a culture that's holding your team back from reaching its full potential? Well, you're not alone. So here's your host and guide, Michael Barron.

SPEAKER_03 0:30

Friends, we are back for a second season, and I could not be happier to be with you here. Hasn't really been that long in between seasons, but oh my gosh, does it feel like it? A lot has happened. A lot's happened in the world, in the US specifically, where most of you all are based. There's so much we could say about that. Um I don't want to get too sidetracked. I want to stay focused right now on the world of work, which is also going through some serious upheaval. I mean, hundreds of thousands of people getting laid off from their jobs because of, well, mostly because of estimations of AI's potential. And these layoffs are happening in some of the most disrespectful and inhumane ways. Um, I mean, you thought a Zoom firing was bad. How about a 3 a.m. mass email? Right? And then if you're one of the lucky people to still be working, maybe you're being forced to use tracking software on your computer so that the AIs can learn exactly what you do and eventually replace you. Um in the larger picture of making work more humane, more inclusive, more psychologically safe, more equitable for everyone. We've got a lot to dig through, and sometimes we are not going in the right directions. Um one big component of all that is how is your boss handling this, right? Or if you are a boss, how are you handling this? If you manage people, how are you handling any of the uncertainty? Um, or just you know, how good of or bad of a boss are they? Um this this person that you have to work with. You probably heard the expression, people don't leave jobs, they leave bosses, right? It's it's not just catchy, but it's also true. Um, certainly in organizations that I partner with and support, I can see that. I can see that in retention rates, who's leaving. Um, I can see that, see that in feedback that people are giving when we're doing um surveys or or listening sessions or interviews. Um bosses are dramatically impacting people's lives. And and you know this, right? If you've if you've had a boss, which uh most almost all of us have had a boss at some point, a lot of times we've had many bosses, many different bosses, or if you're someone who manages people, maybe newly, newly promoted to manage people, or maybe you've been doing this for a long time. Um, but bosses are dramatically impacting work and people's lives, right? And based on the feedback we're getting, bosses in general are not doing a great job. Not that it's always their fault, by the way, right? Bosses are are usually not bad people. It's often that you're given bad training and bad support and or not enough training, not enough support. It is complicated to manage people. It is complicated to manage a diversity of people in terms of age and and race and and sexuality and gender and demographic and class and it's complicated and people need a lot of support and a lot of training. It doesn't come necessarily natural to everyone. And on top of that, there's a ton that is being asked of people who are managing people. Sometimes it's it's doing jobs and managing people, it's it's having unrealistic expectations of what can get done. Um, it's sometimes senior leadership being out of touch with what people on teams are going through. So it's a lot. And today I am so excited for our interview because we're gonna talk about bad bosses. It's a fun topic. Everyone can relate to it in some way or another, but just because it's fun and filled with outrageous stories, uh, it doesn't make it not important, right? It's essential. And so today we're talking with Mita Malik about her most recent book. It's called The Devil Emails at Midnight: What Good Leaders Can Learn from Bad Bosses. Now, Mita is a best-selling author, Wall Street Journal, USA Today, LA Times best-selling author, who is on a mission to fix what is broken in our workplaces. This book, The Devil Emails at Midnight, which is her latest book, tackles head-on how bad bosses aren't born, but are made. Mita's a corporate change maker with an incredible, impressive track record of transforming businesses. She's really sought after in terms of not just speaking, but also advising. She's advised Fortune 500 companies and startups alike. She's a LinkedIn top voice, uh, contributed, a contributor to Harvard Business Review, fast company adweek entrepreneur. And so, without further ado, here is the very interesting discussion that I had with Mita Malik. Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Culture Advantage podcast. I am so excited today to be talking with Mita Malik. Um, Mita, welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 6:00

Thank you for having me. I'm excited for our conversation today.

SPEAKER_03 6:03

I'm really excited. I mean, I've I've read both your books, and and what I love about them is the way that they're they're so packed with information and insight and actionable content, but they're also just really good reads. Like they're they're fun to read and they're interesting to read. And that's something that's really close to my heart as well, in whatever I write or whenever I'm speaking. Because, as you know, if you write the most brilliant stuff, but people don't get through the first few pages, it doesn't really matter what's in there. It's not gonna do any good for the world. And so it's so clear that you take that really seriously, which I love. Um, could you say any more about that, your approach to this work in general?

SPEAKER_01 6:52

First of all, thank you so much. That means a lot that you've read both my books and you've enjoyed them and I'm here on your podcast. I really think about how do you capture someone's attention when there's so much content out there? People say to me, It why is it so much harder to write and publish a book? Well, the barriers to entry are gone, which is amazing. And it there's a lot of competition for books, but also there are podcasts, there's YouTube, there's so many other ways for people to learn that didn't exist, let's say, even 10 years ago, 20 years ago. And so I really think about how do I draw people in with the story, and particularly for this most recent book, The Double Emils at Midnight, What Good Leaders Can Learn from Bad Bosses, even with that title, I was like, the cover is a movie trailer, and I love movie trailers, and so get people excited. And it is as a marketing executive, I know that title was a choice. There will be drawn to it or pushed away from it. And then how do I get people excited about the stories I tell? And then it's not a novel, it is a business book. So I draw people in with stories and then I leave actionable tips and advice.

SPEAKER_03 8:01

Yeah, the book is so great. It's so great from so many different angles, right? Whether you're somebody who manages people and you want to do better, or you know, probably all of us had have had the experience of having a bad boss and remember things that bad bosses did and stuff that's almost like too wild to even believe. Yes. Um, we're gonna talk about folks should get this book and read it until you do, just to sort of summarize, you know, what what I take out of it is, you know, bad bosses are not necessarily bad people. Yes. And and they're not even always bad bosses. They but they often do very bad things. Yeah and and that really matters, like to people, to organizations. Yes. And it happens in some common ways that bosses behave badly, and we can describe those and give them archetypes like you do, and then learn from it to create better workplaces. Is that a fair summary?

SPEAKER_01 9:08

That's it. That's it. Thank you. That is exactly the summary. We can end the conversation. You nailed the conversation. Oh, no, no, no. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 9:17

That's great. Um, so I wonder, I guess I wanted to ask like, how there are many books that you could have written. Yes. How did this idea come out specifically? Like, what led you to this book?

SPEAKER_01 9:30

So it was a very specific, traumatic family moment that brought this book out. And it was my mother's home a few years ago was flooded and nearly destroyed. And it was a cold New England day, and the pipe burst, and here we are in our home. As you've been in anyone who's listening who's been in a house ravaged by fire or water or the elements, you it's there's trauma. And so I'm in my childhood bedroom trying to save things. I have Barbie dolls that I thought would be worth something someday on eBay. They're stoked, trophies medal. Think about all the things we hold on to. And then, Michael, I find a notebook from my 20s, and I love a good journal. And this is a career journal, and I'm looking through it, and it has like all of these powerful vignettes, all these stories, details of particular bosses I worked for during this time. And it was pretty like a lot of emotion. Like you're like, you know, you're coming off the pages, and I'm driving away with my mom from her soap home and our car's packed with things. And I keep thinking about this notebook, and I thought, God, this is a mean girl's burn book moment, right? Because I could be in someone's notebook.

SPEAKER_03 10:40

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

I could be in someone's notebook. And that's what I started thinking about because I've been the person who has contributed to the marketplace literature. You know, the number one question I get, how do I survive a bad boss? How do I spot a toxic work environment? People reach out to me with really painful stories, but I thought, what if we are the person who's knowingly or unknowingly doing this? What if we have the potential capability to be a bad boss? And the line of the book is I've been a bad boss, and chances are so of you. So it was actually finding that notebook, and I started thinking about what can I share with people in a different way and have them reflect into a mirror and look at themselves and admit, yeah, I've actually done these things. Maybe not to the extremes of the individuals, some of them that I include in the book. Right, right. We all can relate to having done that to someone.

SPEAKER_03 11:29

Yeah, I bet. I mean, just reading your book brought up so many memories for me that I probably haven't thought of in 20 years, right? Like some of those things you saw in that journal must have been like memories you hadn't even thought of. No, I hadn't.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

And it flooded, and you know, you when you read something you've written, your younger self-wrote and the emotion and the power, and it brings you right back to that moment in that cubicle when that thing happened, or at the desk, and you're like, wow, I totally had buried that memory.

SPEAKER_03 11:59

Right, right. Until folks have read it, are there one or two stories from the book? Because they're so they're so vivid. Are there one or two that come to mind that you would tell people just to give an example of these archetypes you give and and the stories that came out?

SPEAKER_01 12:16

Well, I will warn people that when you read the book, everyone's nicknamed for a reason. And I do that because listen, don't we love to romanticize villains? I mean, the devil where's Prada part two, the sequel's coming out in May. I think that's the only thing that's gonna get me back into a theater. Like, what is it about? The sort of romanticizing of the bad boss. So we also do that, I think, to disassociate in those moments that are really horrible when a boss really impacts your mental health. I will pick, we'll start with the lighter one, which is the napper. And this was the boss who, and credit to my mom, I took an interview with this company. Would you believe I did 12 interviews in a day? Whoa, and it's a big beauty brand, fancy title. I had to get the job. And my mom said to me, Did they offer you a glass of water after I tell her how excited I am over FaceTime about this? And I'm like, No, and she's like, Don't take the job. Wow. What? Mom, mom, no, I'm taking the job. I take it within 24 hours, accept it. And the water test, as I say, my mom is coined. It's it's right because how people treat you during the interview process, it's a window into what it's like to work there. And I will also say I interviewed with the napper during the process, he was to become my boss. And guess what? I didn't really like him that much. My instincts knew, but I liked everyone else. They gave me a bunch of fancy samples. I start this job, and I will tell you this is the boss who fell asleep in every meeting. Large meetings didn't matter. He fell asleep right here on this podcast. And so you people listening are like, okay, and so maybe he had an issue with an addiction. He had sleep issues, maybe he was fighting with his partner, maybe. But here's what ends up happening is we fast forward through the story. He's sitting in the desk next to mine, actually next to the vice president's office in a cubicle, and is taking calls from recruiters. Talk about such disengagement, shows up whenever he wants, leaves whenever he wants, is also talking loudly about how much it sucks to work there and all these things. Oh my gosh. Ask yourself, why did this person stay so long? Because what you tolerate, the worst behavior you tolerate, defines your culture. Yes. Years later, I'm like, why did this happen? And why do we allow disengaged individuals to say, listen, I've been the disengaged individual, you know, guilty as child.

SPEAKER_03 14:46

Everyone at some point.

SPEAKER_01 14:47

Yeah, but can we have the courage to ask people what's going on and ask them what it would take for them to be happy to work here again? What would it take for you to recommit? And yeah, that is it's really toxic when it is a leader who is disengaged because they are infecting everyone on the team with that disengagement. So that is the napper.

SPEAKER_03 15:11

Okay, that's a lighthearted one. You said I I imagine you were gonna give us a more serious one as well.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

Yeah, I'll go to the Medusa, which was until this point in my life, no one in my life, not my parents, not my brother, not my husband, no one had ever screamed and yelled at me. And here I am working for this woman. She is the equal opportunity bully. She goes after everyone. She privately, publicly humiliates, she screams, she yells, she throws tantrums like a toddler. I didn't have children at the time, but now I understand, right? Threw a Chanel shoe at a colleague.

SPEAKER_03 15:45

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

I mean, P.S. It's funny. I posted something recently on social media on like funny trauma from bosses, because you either laugh or cry. And she wore show much, so much Chanel, it's like the devil wears Chanel. I don't know what she was getting paid. And it wasn't rent the runway because she had the same pieces, right? So I mean I don't understand how you can afford this, but fine. And you know, years later, Michael, I didn't realize that I have nothing against Chanel, but I actually had trauma from it.

SPEAKER_03 16:13

Chanel number five.

SPEAKER_01 16:14

And then a very close friend of mine now loves Chanel, and it's because of her, I'll like go into a store now. But I used to be like, not really a but there's no reason to not be a fan of Chanel, except that this woman who traumatized me was head to toe.

SPEAKER_03 16:30

Oh, smells can trigger all that, right? Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 16:34

But but I but again, it's like what I don't understand about leaders who use fear as a motivation in the workplace, here's what happens, and here's what happened to me. So fear actually drives short-term results, it kills culture in the long term. And so what happens is if I'm I'm working for her and I'm scared, I am scared. So I come into work every day thinking I can outwork the bully. And if I just work harder and faster and exceed whatever metrics she set, she's gonna leave me alone.

SPEAKER_03 17:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

Does guess what? She doesn't want to work load. And then you start to get tired. It's exhausting to be constantly scared that adrenaline rush. And then you start to say, it doesn't matter. She's gonna come after me anyway. So you start to care a little less, you start to go under the radar, you start to slowly disappear at work, and you are either gonna be put on a performance improvement plan, we know how this goes, or you will leave on your own because you will no longer stay at that.

SPEAKER_03 17:34

Right, right. And so, and that's I mean, sometimes people think, ha ha, bad bosses do funny bad stuff. What's the big deal? But like you're pointing out, this is a huge deal. Like people work so hard to try to work on the culture of an organization. And yet, when you have people like that, they're destroying it. I mean, when you think of that definition of culture you gave, which I love, I always talk about that too. The worst thing that happens that we tolerate, when you think of it that way, it's like, God, our our culture is horrible then. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

And what I wish when you when you say this, and it's such an important point, is that I wish that more leaders understood the cost of bad bosses, not just to our own mental health. And you've seen the stat included in the book that that's circulating widely, is that more than your parent, your partner, your children, your best friend, your boss is the person who can negatively impact your mental health, which actually lots of head nods. It actually makes sense. But if you actually looked at what a bad boss cost in terms of product productivity, and what if you actually had it reflected in the PL? And what do I do by this? It's turnover cost, right? I go back to Medusa. She turned over one team of 11 or 12 people, and then they moved her on to this other team that I was voluntole to go work on. And guess what? Within 18 months, we that whole team turned over. And so what ends up happening is you just the person in charge is calling recruiting and saying, I need butts and seats, and then recruiting is trying to not knowing or able to solve the root cause, they're just constantly trying to fill seats that keep turning over, and what a huge cost to the organization.

SPEAKER_03 19:19

Huge, huge cost. Um I uh you have 13, right? 13 archetypes. Where I want to know some that were on the brainstorming list that didn't make the final cut. Were there others that you had in mind that you wanted to talk about?

SPEAKER_01 19:35

Um there's there's ones where it's like, you know, the boss who's the popularity contest, they'll do anything to be liked.

unknown 19:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

A reporter who was interviewing me once said it was like prom queen. But it's like it's it's an interesting one where, and this is going to happen, particularly in the environment we're in, when you start to work for your peer, or you become the boss of your peer. You and I were close, we were in the trenches, peers, and now you report into me. How does that change? What does that mean? Yeah, and the how do you then still have a relationship where you show that I recognize and value you, but we're we're no longer friends and peers. I'm in charge, and I see people struggle a lot with that, and that's that's really hard. And also in some cases, we're still besties, and I still will overlook all of the areas of opportunity you have and continue to promote you and pay you. And I'm painting you in a bad light here, this would never happen, but no, and then everybody else is like, well, why does he he's not even doing any work? But oh, they're friends, they're friends, and so that's one of the ones. If I had a 14 and 15, maybe I'll do a sequel, we'll see. There's there's many more on the cutting board that they would have.

SPEAKER_03 20:59

Yeah, that's a big one. Like the I'm not your boss, I'm your friend. Yes, I've seen that a lot. Um, another one that came to mind, and this they're all related in some some way. Many of them are related, but one that came to mind specifically for like nonprofits and mission-driven organizations are the boss that's so passionate about the cause that that's like the excuse for all of the bad behavior, right? Because they care so much.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

You know what's really interesting in working and advising for-profits versus nonprofits? There's something really interesting about nonprofits where gaslighting occurs around the mission. So we have this mission to save the world and save people and serve. So we could never behave this way. Yes, you're imagining it, is what you're saying. And so that is an interesting one. Because in a for profit, we're here to make money. We're here to sell you as much stuff that you don't need or get. Try to surprise and delight you or actually enhance the quality of whatever the you're selling something, yeah. Where for profit, as you nonprofit, as you point out, is in service of and you can actually recognize that and yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 22:13

I see that all the time. So you talk, you know, like you said, bad bosses are made, not born. Um, and often they're just really good at their job. So they get promoted and promoted because of that, but nobody taught them to teach lead people, right? How to lead people or why that matters or how to do it. Um, so if I'm a boss, um, if I'm reading this, there's tons of valuable tips in there. What if I'm the CEO or you know, an executive leader, and I don't want any of my people managers to be a bad boss? And I've got, let's say I'm a huge organization and I've got a thousand people who manage others, what can I do organizationally in terms of the systems and practices that I set up?

SPEAKER_01 23:01

Well, you know, what gets measured gets done. So if it's really important to you, because I always say, people say, What's the job of a leader? How do you define a leader? A leader's job is to create more leaders. So if you're the CEO and I work for you and I'm your chief marketing officer, let's say, you should be watching to see how am I developing talent, who's leaving, who's staying, who's getting promoted. Do I have development plans for people? And I think about how to rotate and push people. Am I promoting people? Am I holding people back? Am I being a talent hoarder? All of these things you can be measuring, and then you can then tie it to my pay. You can say to me, listen, from the business perspective, you exceeded our revenue target. You signed these clients, etc. But if I look at your turnover, you lost five key members of your team, and that cost us. And there's always a story and there's always excuses, but at the end of the day, they left under Mita's leadership. And so we will make a call that I won't get paid the full bonus, right? And so that's when I think things start to change, is that when you hold people, I mean, money talks, right? And you're holding it accountable in the performance. And so I just listed a number of things. You don't have to start with all of those, you can start by measuring one. You're gonna hold leaders accountable to how they grow and develop their teams.

SPEAKER_03 24:20

Yeah, I love that. And it's so rare. I mean, I've been part of lots of you know leadership development trainings and things like that, but it's rare to find an organization that puts enough time and effort into that because it is so important and so poorly executed.

SPEAKER_01 24:39

So often and you know what's such a big miss is that people don't realize, enough people, leaders don't realize, and like the CEO, for example. In your case, if you hold me accountable to that, and I have a strong reputation of developing people and being a good leader, you don't have to be knocking on recruiting's door to get me talent. People are going to come want to work for me in the company because you, as a CEO of reputation, I have a reputation as your leader. You'll find it much easier to actually attract talent because people will want to work for you.

SPEAKER_03 25:14

For sure. What about, and you I see this a lot, I'm sure you do too. What about when the bad bosses are the really high performers?

SPEAKER_01 25:26

The toxic rock stars. Exactly. Well, here's the thing you have to get under the hood. It's like, what is it? Because that is that's not gonna last forever. Likely, what is that person doing? They're scaring people into driving results, they're having massive turnover. So they actually drove this team to achieve results in this year, and then next year that whole team's turned over and has to be replaced. So if you actually look under the hood in the details, it's it's all propped up. It's a house of cards.

SPEAKER_03 26:00

Yeah, usually. Yep, for sure. You can tell, you know, when you're doing like a talk for an organization or at a conference or something, and you can judge like how much you're you're nailing what people are experiencing by the head nods. Yes, yes, and you just say toxic high performer boss in the room is like, oh my God, yeah, like let me tell you about mine. Yeah, right. Um and yet, and this is I think is something really important too, and you talk about this in the book, how speaking up, how trying to give feedback about a boss can be really hard and risky for you, right? Um, and certain I've had that experience. Like, what could organizations do to get this really valuable feedback instead of people just swallowing it and dealing with it and then quitting as soon as something better comes along?

SPEAKER_01 26:53

Well, my hot take on this is don't ask for feedback if you're not gonna do anything with it. Don't do it. Cancel your employee surveys, cancel your 360s. Honestly, if people are not ready to receive the feedback and sit with it and process it and action it, it doesn't mean that you have to agree with it. It means that you're willing to listen to a different point of view. And we're all human, we get defensive. But that's the number one mistake I see people do is that you say you want the feedback. I've reached for organizations where they're like, bury the bury the feedback. What? Or they're like, that's not true. What do you mean it's not true? All right, this isn't true, you need to go resurvey people. What? Right. So, like that's like the biggest thing I see. But then it is the art of being able to accept feedback because we can give it, but then can we accept it? And one of the things if you're leading a team and you want to get feedback from your team, don't do this. Do not say what do you think I should do differently? Anytime a boss says that to me, I feel like it's a trick question. Like I'm being recorded, it's like some show. I'm like, no, don't don't say the truth, right? And I remember one time I did that with the boss, and I I was like Brene Brown, clear as kind, and he lost his lost his bleep. He was like, What? True, that didn't happen. You're like, okay, so what happened next time? Never asked him again. Never never anytime he asked me, I'd be like, all good. Yeah. So, you know, one of the things I like to do is let's say you were working for me, we're having coffee this coming Friday, and we're talking about a project. I would write to you and I'd say, hey, Michael, I'm really excited for our meeting on Friday. I am excited to talk about this project. I also wanted to talk to you about my career development. I've been really thinking about things I would like to work on as a leader, and I would really like to be able to delegate, work faster to the team, and make decisions more quickly and not be a bottleneck. I would appreciate your coaching when we talk. Notice I don't say feedback, right? Yeah, a few things. One, I put it in writing so you have time to absorb it and you're prepared. So I'm not in the moment. Michael, what do you think I should work on? Tell me, right? Yeah. Number two, I was vulnerable and I didn't do an open-ended. I actually said what I think I should work on. And then number three, I said feedback and not coaching, which sounds sorry, I said coaching. That depends on the environment. Some people will use feedback, some people use coaching. And then when we meet and you say, Yes, I agree with that, or you say, Well, actually, I don't think that's what you have to work on. I think it's this. And then what do I do? Because I'm like, that's actually not true. But I say, Thank you so much for the feedback. I'm gonna take some time to process it and come back to you, and then take the time, come back, and decide what's the one thing you're gonna work on and ask your team to hold you accountable to it.

SPEAKER_03 29:51

Yeah, I that's brilliant, and I love it. And that you can imagine why people are so jaded because they've maybe accepted that in good faith at some point, and then it's come back to hurt them. Yes, like you know, yeah, um, which happens all too often.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

All too often.

SPEAKER_03 30:12

So, so what about then in that case? I mean, what's people's recourse when either you have a boss who is not soliciting coaching or feedback and won't accept it, or they act like they're gonna take it, but then it's it's coming to hurt you later on.

SPEAKER_01 30:27

I mean, you have to be careful. Listen, I've witnessed organizations. I talk about this in the devil emails in midnight. My former boss uh nicknamed Tony, as in Tony Soprano, yes, it's a great chapter. He came after people, right? Yeah, anonymous and confidential, not always, right? Yeah, so I would say whatever you're gonna be putting down and writing for feedback for your boss, for a leader for the organization, be willing to have your name on it and be willing to be able to say it to the person. That's the test, right? That's the test. And if you have a boss who's not open to feedback, then you have to work around it. That's I mean, my advice is I dedicated the book to my kids and I joked and I said, you know, when you come to me and your dad and say you have a bad boss, I'm gonna hand you this book. Okay, we're all gonna have a bad boss. Yeah, you don't resign every time you have a bad boss. The context and situation matters. If you are working for someone who is really negatively impacting your mental health and you are disappearing and you're losing yourself every week, you've got to make a get-out plan and figure out how you're gonna leave. But if it is a situation where you're, I'm sorry, working for micromanaging Meta, you can say, I'm gonna do this for six months or a year, and I'm gonna learn what I can. And I started doing this. I think it's a I love this exercise. Open up your resume and don't wait till the assignment is done. Start writing those bullet points now. Think of that energy it creates. I'm gonna survive micromanaging Mita for a year. I'm committing to this, but this is what I know. I'm gonna get out of this assignment. That's why I'm staying. So I think that's the calculation we each have to make on whether we stay or leave and when.

SPEAKER_03 32:13

That's really good. Um, you know, you talk about the the bad boss who deliberately uses a wrong name for you, and you talk about that as as microaggressions, or, you know, as Tiffany, Jana, and I call them in our book, subtle acts of exclusion. Not that that was subtle to you at all. Yeah, right. But maybe it felt like subtle and not a big deal to him. Um, but my question is about how much of the bad treatment you received by so many of these bad bosses might have been at least in part attributable to who you are and your identity and the bias that they might have had. Like, were they behaving badly equally to everyone, or or is there some biases that they might have had?

SPEAKER_01 33:02

I I would agree. I mean, particularly with the story of my name, I do believe there was clear bias there. I think that, I mean, there's there's a few things. People will say to me, Did you actually have all these bad bosses? Like, how did you have so many bad bosses? So there are times when you work in a very large public company, people listening will know this, you can have two or three bosses in the same year because of logicians of people leaving, changes, teams combining. I will also say, given my cultural upbringing, I was always more introverted, painfully shy, quiet. I was a people pleaser. I think I attracted a lot of these individuals. So there's that as well. And then I do think there is, particularly when I think about uh the chapter around the great pretender, and that's you know, someone who was a woman leader who was a mother who punished me for being pregnant, right? And so I do think there have been particularly lived experiences I've had, how I identify, and it's hard to separate, it's who I am. So I cannot say that that did not play a role in some of these situations.

SPEAKER_03 34:05

Yeah, and the gender bias in that chapter is is obvious, right? And so troubling.

SPEAKER_01 34:11

And that was an important one because it's not just men who can be biased against women, it's women who can be biased. It's all of us can have biases against each other. And so that was important to remind people of that.

SPEAKER_03 34:23

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Um I have a question about this current moment, which in some ways is different, feels different, in some ways it's not. There's always turmoil. Um, and and when I even just saying this moment can mean a lot of different things, but there's some real anxiety going on in the workforce, especially in the US. Maybe about, you know, people being scared to walk to work or drive to work in some places, or people existally freaking out about like their constitutional rights, or people being re-traumatized by sexual assault from the news going on, or like people feeling abandoned because diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives are cut. Like there's so many things. What does a boss bad boss do in those circumstances when the workforce is struggling like that? And and what could a good leader do instead?

SPEAKER_01 35:19

I think one of the reasons bad boss behavior occurs is that when there's a lot of stress, particularly in the marketplace, right? Um and so there's intense pressure on business right now, particularly with our current administration. Do we know if they're tariffs or taxes or what's happening? We don't. And so I think one of the things I'm watching out for, which is particularly troubling, is that when people feel a loss of control in their lives, they're looking for some sense of control. So it's very easy for someone who's managing people to find control in that way. And it reminds me of the pandemic, right? And the rise of the helicopter boss. I there the world is frozen and on fire at the same time. And all of a sudden, I feel like I can't control anything. But you know what I can control? I can get on that meeting, I can email my team, I can make sure they CC me on everything. I can ask them the fifth time, when is the proposal due, even though I told them it's due next week, but let me ask them again, right? And so those are things that I'm watching out for. And I think, you know, the push for RTO, uh return to office, there's a lot of, you know, we've talked about that for a long time. There's a lot of different reasons for that, but I also think it's a control, right? It's like I get to sit outside my office, my glass corner office, I get to see my team and I get to be like Mita. Just it makes me feel good and I feel like I'm in control. So, what can good leaders do? I keep saying I don't write executive orders, I don't write policy, but I can just show up for people and be human. And I think we've forgotten the act of that, the importance of that. You don't have to agree with policy. We can disagree on that, but you can stand up when it has to do with humanity and life or death. You can start a meeting and saying, I the headlines this weekend were tough. And you know, I'm here if anyone wants to connect, if anyone needs some time off, it is really hard. People want to feel seen, recognized, and valued. Imagine, you know, you not we don't have to imagine it. People are being shot and killed um in Minneapolis, and you're entering meetings and no one's talking about it. It just didn't happen. You know, I'll never forget. I was fairly new at a company, and I was I was senior, and it was January 6th, that was the January 6th, and we're all in a very large meeting and we're all in our homes. And guess what's happening? Every single person has their phone or CNN in the back watching the US Capitol be desecrated, and we're all just sitting there in some product launch meeting. And finally, I was like, is anyone else watching this?

SPEAKER_03 37:56

Right.

SPEAKER_01 37:57

And they're like, oh my God, thank God you said something, because your employees are distracted, anyways. So just honor it and let them know. And I think the other thing I want to say, Michael, which I think's a really tough time right now in the workplace, is that you know, I look at recent research from the New York Times and it talks about how worship is down in the US, synagogues, churches, temples. Why is that important? Religion is the oldest form of gathering for community. You think about the loneliness pandemic, you think about all these things, and people show up to work and they're demanding a lot of their workplaces. Many people are coming for community. And so when government fails us, they say, Well, business needs to step up. Michael, you need to make a statement. Michael, you need to do this, Michael, and it's that our workplace was not built for. But we can always lean into being human and we can encourage people to donate, vote, call your legislature, write checks, volunteer, whatever you can do to then take that energy, that hurt, that anger, that disappointment, everything happening because the workplace can only do so much as well. Yeah. We have to, we have to have that conversation. It cannot solve for everything else that's happening. It just can't. It doesn't mean it doesn't have a responsibility to step in and step up, but it can't do everything.

SPEAKER_03 39:21

Right. And and yet some of these things are, like you said, they're essential for people to feel seen and to just be able to even work without being so distracted or so just ruminating. I mean, it's it's there's some places that like they want us to be severance, right? At work. Like they want it to be like the outside world doesn't impact. We just show up and do what we gotta do. Um, and it doesn't work that way. No. What about um what about generationally? Like, how do you see this impacting new generations in the workforce?

SPEAKER_01 39:59

Well, I think, you know, people I vote with my wallet, people also vote with their feet, right? I think there are generations, and I hate to stereotype about generations when people ask me, it's like stereotyping about communities or identities. Yeah. But what is happening and how people, if you are watching and you're being raised right now and watching your parents being let go and watching them struggle to find work or finding work, and then three years later being out of work again, that is going to inform, you know, when my children who are young, when they enter the workforce. And I do think the thing that we haven't talked about is that loyalty is dead in the workplace. And sort of, you know, they're like, You said that out loud. Well, I mean, listen, I remember I had, you know, an uncle who used to work at a company, and 30 years after working, he got a gold Rolex. This is true, a big public company. And why that happened was, you know, there was a social contract between employer and employee. You have healthcare, pension, benefits. You will get a paycheck every two weeks in exchange for loyalty, and you will be there for 30, 40 years and you will be taken care of. That no longer exists. And so that acknowledgement of what that's gonna look like next year and in five years, that you know, in the US, I've always been an at-will employee, but isn't it an interesting world to think about? You have a workforce where maybe 20% is executive leadership, leadership that stays, but then that 80% is actually contract. Like every year we're sort of up for renewal, which is what? That seems like a dystopian world. I don't think we're far from that.

SPEAKER_03 41:46

Yeah, you you know, you make you're making me think about some of the unease I have with the way that some companies talk about belonging or like we're all a family.

SPEAKER_01 41:56

Oh, please, no, cancel family analogy. Sorry, I don't cancel things that easily, but the family analogy at work. Oh god. I'm sorry, sorry, sorry.

SPEAKER_03 42:06

Yeah, no, no, hey, that's that's what I'm talking about. Yeah, like you have to be my family and not leave me, but I'll fire you in a heartbeat, right?

SPEAKER_01 42:16

I mean, yeah, I mean, maybe family does this, but like locks you out of the building and you get a text at 2 a.m. saying check your email and the I mean, all the ways that people can let go, it's outrageous, right? You just you don't treat people that way when they've served you and helped you and worked with your company and made impact. Where's the dignity in how you have them close this chapter?

SPEAKER_03 42:41

Yeah, or just the humanity, my gosh. Like, sure, if you're stealing from the company, escort people out with a security guard. But if you're just a normal person, exactly. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:53

And isn't it funny how exactly what you said, some of these layoffs they make you feel like you're criminal and you did something wrong, where you you did everything you could to try to do your job well, and and then one day you're no longer there.

SPEAKER_03 43:06

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh gosh, yeah. Um, yeah, the time, you know, it's I don't like stereotyping generations either, but sometimes it's also just time and life stuff. Like I work with a lot of companies where people are like, you know, the older folks who maybe have kids are like, I want to go in and do my thing, and then I want I need to get back to my family and do my thing there. Whereas younger people joining maybe want a community in a different sort of way. Absolutely. Um, and purpose and connection and friends, and because of all that stuff you talked about. Um speaking of, like, there's so many great tips in here. What about like what would you say is transferable? Like, in in other words, what skills do bosses need? But it it's also good skills for friendships or romantic relationships or parenting or just anything in general.

SPEAKER_01 44:02

I mean it it's actually leads to the title of the book, which is The Devil Emails at Midnight. Time is the most precious commodity in any relationship we have. It's the biggest complaint. And so the book opens up with the boss who never had time for me at midnight.

unknown 44:16

Right.

SPEAKER_01 44:16

Except at midnight. You know, she would dump her emails on me from 10 p.m. to you know 1 a.m. And that's how I got time with her. It's wild. And I just wanted to be valued, seen, and recognized. So are we doing that for each other? And in the time, people keep asking me, what are you doing in this time? I'm like, I'm trying to be a light for others, and I want others to be a light for me. This conversation and you inviting me in the podcast is meaningful. And I know a lot of people are listening in, but that's the how can we show up for each other? And sometimes it seems like the darkest moments, but we're the light. Whether it's something we're going through in work, whether it's something many things happening in our world today is just leaning in on each other. And I said my daughter says, sprinkle kindness everywhere.

SPEAKER_03 44:57

Just I love it.

SPEAKER_01 44:58

Sprinkle it everywhere.

SPEAKER_03 44:59

Yeah. Oh, that's great. That's really great. Um, I love that. What is like what is the best case scenario look like for you in terms of work and leadership? What's what's the fantasy you imagine could happen?

SPEAKER_01 45:15

People have the opportunity to reach their potential at work, that they have that opportunity, and that's not everyone does, that the environment is created so that you can go and do great work. And that a lot of these things that we talk about won't doesn't matter, right? But it's we know it matters, and so that's what that's like what utopia looks like is that we all are excited. And listen, it's not that work is joyful every day, that's not possible. Right. We're we're happy about the work we're doing, we're happy we're being recognized and rewarded, we're making impact.

SPEAKER_03 45:49

Yeah, yeah, love it, love it. Okay, so I often um give people, if they want to, a little activity or something they could read or watch or do. One of those activities I would assign for them is certainly reading, getting and reading the book.

SPEAKER_02 46:07

Oh.

SPEAKER_03 46:07

Um what is there anything else you think people might do that would be an interesting little optional kind of homework assignment?

SPEAKER_01 46:17

I'm a big fan of journaling and writing. I actually think that we've lost that art form because we are, you know, what's the latest you're using? Notion or a spreadsheet or a claude. I mean, there's so many, there's so much technology we have your disposal, but I'd love for people to find a beautiful notebook and a pen and actually sit with yourself. And, you know, you don't have to be a writer to do this, but once a week you could set a timer and just write reflections. And it could be, as I've done, it could be a career journal. Yeah. It could be specifically about work, it could be specifically about something else in your life. But I'd love for us to go back to that old school journal and pen and paper. There's just something so beautiful about that. And also the the mind, at least for me, processing when I write things down versus type them and I'm writing it, I feel it. I feel it in my heart in my mind.

SPEAKER_03 47:07

Yeah, completely. Well, and then you can find it 20 years later in your chapter.

SPEAKER_01 47:11

Yes, and then maybe it's a book.

SPEAKER_03 47:13

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 47:14

I have behind me, Michael, many a journal. There's more books.

SPEAKER_03 47:18

That's awesome. I love that. Um, okay, Mita, where can people find you, connect with you?

SPEAKER_01 47:25

Yes. Well, I hope you'll purchase the book and read it, the Devil Emils of Midnight, good leaders, uh, what good leaders can learn from bad bosses. I also did the audio, which was quite fun. And I uh LinkedIn's my preferred social media platform, although I am on TikTok now, which has been exciting. And you can find me at MitaMolik.com. And thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_03 47:43

Oh my gosh, thank you so much for being here. The book is a great read and just so helpful.

SPEAKER_01 47:49

Oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_03 47:50

Love it. And thank you for doing the work that you do and for taking the time to be with us today.

SPEAKER_01 47:55

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 47:56

All right, take care. All right, everyone, there you have it. Bad bosses, our conversation with Mita Malik. Um, or maybe we should make it a verb, bad bossing, not necessarily bad bosses. Now, you can probably tell it's been a little bit since we recorded that interview, um, as we've been getting everything ready for season two. Now, a couple points that Mita and I talked about that I just wanted to come back to. Um, first, this idea that bad bossing behavior might not be happening to everyone equally, right? That biases can make it. So that for some bosses, some of their team members have halos, right? Everything they do is amazing. And some have horns, right? Nothing is right. The same action from two different people can receive very different responses. This is one kind of bias that we have: the halo and horns effect. There's so many different kinds of biases. I've definitely in my early career, I've been on both sides of that. I've been the person that for one boss, um, I couldn't do anything wrong, right? I was like the chosen, the chosen one. And then other times I couldn't do anything right. Same me, same person, same worth ethic, work ethic, same skill set, same dedication and passion. But um, but the biases are real. And so, you know, we did a whole episode on bias, um, where I talked about all the different kinds of biases. If you miss that or if you want a refresher, go back and check that out. Um, it's called What is Lurking in Our Minds? Um, so you can go back and check out that episode. This stuff is real and it really impacts our working relationships, right? Um, another point I wanted to emphasize just the mental health, mental health in general, the mental health spirals going on now with people from anxiety and stress. Whether that's, you know, there's so many things it could be, whether that's economic concerns or or anxiety about your job or existential sort of dread or sadness or frustration or confusion at what seems to be some really fast change going on in our society and our in our policies and our laws and our procedures. Um, you know, the government, this administration, for example, abandoning what it seemed like bedrock rights or traditions or or trends. I mean, you know, it's just reading an article about another majority black district, this one in Louisiana, being eliminated, right? Civil rights being rolled back, um, people being disenfranchised, and and then there's war and and shifting geopolitical alliances and all of that. It's just all impacting many people. Not everyone, right? Some people don't pay much attention to all that, um, or don't necessarily get the same kind of information delivered to them. Um, but for many people, we've got some mental health crises going on. Uh you know, finally, I just wanted to touch on something that keeps coming back up and will more and more. I think the the inhumanity and the coldness of work sometimes, the greed that's driving decisions rather than the humanity. Like, how are we gonna put people back front and center again? Um, we're we're just we're here, we're people, here we are, and we should be collectively trying to figure out how to elevate all of us, or you know, as Mita said there, to to be the light for others and to have others be the light for us, um, whether that's just in our interpersonal interactions, or if we're being strategic, doing that for organizations with, you know, policies and procedures and and supports and how we think about our budgets and and what we do um just day in and day out in a way that bakes the humanity in rather than leaving it up to each individual um in every interaction. So both of those are necessary. We're gonna get very kind of philosophical about that in an in an episode coming up. Uh for now, just be well, everyone. Take care of yourselves, take care of each other. I'm so glad to be back connecting with you on a regular basis for this season. If you have any comments, thoughts, questions, definitely reach out to me. Um, the best place to email me is going to be Michael at irisinclusion.com. That's irisiris inclusion.com. Um, I look forward to hearing from you. And until next time, be well.

SPEAKER_00 53:20

So that's it for today's episode of the Culture Advantage Podcast. Head on over to Apple Podcasts, iTunes, or wherever you listen, and subscribe to the show. And join us on the next episode.