The Shape of Change, with Jennifer Brown

Sometimes life forces us to be more reflective, more expansive in our thinking. It breaks us out of patterned ways of working. Have you taken the time to step back and think about recent changes to the way we work? How has politics and technology and current events shaped how we think about work, about leadership, about ourselves?

 In this episode, Dr. Michael Baran interviews bestselling author, speaker, and strategic advisor Jennifer Brown about her new book, The Shape of Change: On Leadership, Resilience, and the Urgent Art of Becoming More Human, Together. Jennifer and Michael reflect on many big picture issues: how to consider and value yourself when your work context changes dramatically, what inclusion means when you have non-human colleagues (AI), where the work of inclusion is heading, valuing humanity even through major disruption, leading through a BANI (brittle, anxious, nonlinear, and incomprehensible) world, and so much more. This conversation will be especially valuable if you are someone who leads an organization, someone who manages people, or someone who works to make organizations more fair, equitable, and inclusive for all. 

Resources Mentioned:

 The AI Doc: Or How I Became an Apocaloptimist

Jennifer Brown on Substack

Jennifer Brown on LinkedIn

How to be an Inclusive Leader book

The Will to Change podcast

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Is your company struggling navigating through high turnover, toxic leadership, or a culture that's holding your team back from reaching its full potential? Well, you're not alone. So here's your host and guide, Michael Barron.

SPEAKER_03 0:27

Sometimes life forces you to think a little more reflectively, a little more expansively. It breaks you out of patterned ways of working, patterned ways of thinking. And certainly if you're someone whose work is dedicated to making things more fair and equitable and inclusive for everyone in workplaces or in communities, the disruptions that have happened for the last, you could say, one and a half years in the United States have probably forced you to think a little bit differently. You know that that's what my career's been focused on. So I think about that, I guess a lot in terms of the business, iris inclusion that I run. Um, because you have to. You have to think strategically about what does this mean for the work? What does this mean for the business? How do we have to, you know, partner in different ways? How do we have to do the work in different ways? Um, what's going to be most effective? Um, what are the things we really need to focus on? But I don't, so I focus on that for sure, but I don't always take the time to kind of step back even from that and really reflect on it all in terms of what it means for the world and and my life. I kind of get very caught up in the day-to-day, right? And like in the work that I'm doing with clients that we partner with, in the weeds with marketing, and starting this podcast and posting new ways and figuring out how to use AI in new ways. Um, you know, and sometimes the podcast doesn't kind of take that time to reflect either, because we're focused on bringing in authors and talking about their books and, you know, thinking about practical strategies you can use and guidelines that can be helpful. But today's interview is definitely more big picture and reflective, and that's important to do sometimes. And I'm really glad that we're doing that. And we're doing it today because we're talking with Jennifer Brown and her new book, it is reflective like that. It is thoughtful like that. Um, now, lots of you are gonna be familiar with Jennifer probably from her work on inclusive leadership. I'm so happy to be able to have her talking with us on the podcast today. Jennifer has been guiding leaders through transformation for over two decades, helping them build inclusive, future-ready workplaces that are rooted in trust and transparency and empathy. She's the best-selling author of four influential books, right? One is Inclusion, another is How to Be an Inclusive Leader, which is now in its second edition. Another one is Beyond Diversity. And then the one we're talking about today is um her new book called The Shape of Change on Leadership, Resilience, and the Urgent Art of Becoming More Human Together. Now, as a speaker and strategic advisor, Jennifer's partnered with lots of organizations, Google and IBM and Toyota. She's partnered with universities like Columbia and Vandermilt. She's been in the featured in the Wall Street Journal, Harvard Business Review, Fast Company, and she's got her own podcast called The Will to Change, where that she's been doing for a long time. She's got almost 400 episodes out on leadership, identity, and the future of work. And as someone who's just starting this podcast thing, I'm so impressed by that. So I couldn't be happier to have Jennifer here on the podcast with us today. Because of the nature of our conversation, I think this episode's gonna be particularly interesting. If you are a leader at an organization, if you manage people, certainly if your work focuses on trying to make things more fair and equitable and inclusive and respectful, um, whether that's at work or in the world, this is gonna be interesting for you, I hope. So without further ado, here is my interview with Jennifer. All right, listeners, we have a real treat today. I am thrilled to welcome Jennifer Brown to the podcast. Jennifer, welcome. I've already given folks run through your super impressive bio in the introduction. So here, I just thought we could dive right in. There's so many things I thought about that we could talk about. And so if it's all right with you, we could just jump right in, but first, just welcome.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

Oh, thank you. I'm so honored, especially with the get other guests you've had on. I know them all and I admire their work and have drawn on their wisdom and energy for a really long time. So you are running an amazing show here. I'm honored.

SPEAKER_03 5:09

Thank you so much. I mean, I'm I I don't know if you feel this. It's one of the huge benefits to doing something like this, doing a podcast like this. And I'm I'm sure you felt this too. It's just reconnecting with people that you haven't talked to in a while and getting to actually connect and and learn about what they're all doing and and kind of just, you know, have fun with it and see people that you really love.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

Selfishly, yes.

SPEAKER_03 5:34

Selfishly, I know, but that's and and it's such a joy to bring those people who who you know how brilliant they are and you know how dynamic and and charismatic they are, and to share that with your audience is just kind of a real joy, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:48

Oh, it is. It's a pleasure, it's a privilege. And you know, there's so many of my guests after having my own show for seven years, they're all still in my life. Like I still it you just bond. You have this intimacy after you have these kinds of conversations that um takes it to a different level of your relationship. So yeah, that's what it's such a bond these times to have this kind of for sure.

SPEAKER_03 6:13

I mean, you're already sparking so many questions for me. Um I kind of want to start though, just talking about your new book, right? The shape of change. I I've read it recently. It's a beautiful book, it's so reflective and thoughtful and and poetic. And and as you say in it, so very much not an instruction manual. Um, and I wonder if you could just tell the listeners about that. Like, what how did this book come about? Why was it important for you to write? Why was it important for you to write now?

SPEAKER_01 6:47

All good questions. Thank you. Uh yeah, so it was an unusual process because I uh a publ, a new kind of publisher, publishing model approached me and said, we want to do a book from your podcast. And I had 370 episodes by that point after seven years of running, and we decided to mercifully just focus on the last 100 episodes. But it makes sense too, because I wanted the book to be really timely, like really grounded in this moment and what this moment feels like for me. And I had been unpacking that both in solo episodes, but also with dear colleagues and fellow advocates who were traveling this road. And um, so they were able to help me do that, like distill, you know, the lessons, the wisdom, the ideas. And it was just an incredible process, almost like makes you realize, and I've known this, but I hadn't known how to kind of extract the the and distill the the important parts of the conversations into something that someone could read, you know, in a in a sitting in like a short plain light or whatever. So I was very excited to have it. And so that was how it came about. And then the why now is the urgency of what we're all feeling and going through. It's, you know, I I was all about inclusive leadership for many, many, many years, right? Right. 30 years. And I think I think when everything has been put on pause and we were sort of blocked as a field of practitioners from going there anymore, from having the partnerships that we had, from feeling the wind in our sails and at our backs to something quite opposite, it stopped me in my tracks. And I think I think it was very important that that has happened uh for a lot of reasons. Uh, and so the book goes through what it felt like to be stopped in my tracks um and what came up when the music stops. It kind of I I think of this musical chairs game, which is a very cruel and very 1980s game, right? It's uh, you know, that you are an outsider and you you lose and there are winners, but there were no chairs anymore. I mean, it literally like the music stopped. There was not even a chair uh anymore to sit in for any of us. And there was it's almost felt like our home was being taken away and our purpose and our identities. And the book really explores what that felt like for me. Uh, who am I beyond my work? Um, who am I? Um, I contain my work and I will always possess it, you know, it will always be in me. But this moment has allowed me to really branch into a bigger conversation. And I think why now is there's a bigger conversation that's needed because so many systems are failing and changing, and we are being kind of swept up in a very, very confusing time. So I love thinking about change. I, you know, but I struggle with it as a human. And I, you know, I use my own self as an instrument for teaching and reflection and honesty and saying, boy, this has been really after 25 years of knowing exactly who I was roughly and being so kind of clear and focused. It's been difficult and heartbreaking and also amazing and exhilarating. So I just I just you know, it's I'm not meaning to put a positive spin and be toxically positive with this, but I do, I do think the pause and was so is and continues to be so instructive for us to reevaluate who am I going to be in this next chapter and what am I going to teach? And where am I going to convene people? What do I want to be talking about? What's important right now, what's urgent right now. Uh boy, there's no shortage of of work to be done, but I think our role can change and it should change. It should change.

SPEAKER_03 10:42

Yeah. Oh gosh, I really want to dive into a lot of that. Um because you and I are feeling and experiencing professionally and just maybe growth-wise, um, so many of the same similar things at least. Um what uh what ideas? There's so many beautiful like images and metaphors and concepts in the book. Which ones are really resonating with people? What have you heard? What feedback have you heard? What's what's really resonating the most?

SPEAKER_01 11:14

You know, the the most interesting thing has been in my book events, I've been doing uh the response I'm getting is thank you for naming what this moment feels like. If you're just giving it trying to give it words, um sometimes words you know are inadequate, you know, uh when so much is happening and it's so deep and complex and nuanced. And I'm like, am I is this real and what is true? And wow. I mean, it just the destabilization is so intense right now that um people are grateful for that. And I'm noticing this is my editorializing. I think leaders and companies aren't talking about this. So it talks about an elephant in the room, the level of change that people are being asked to pivot through gracefully and graciously, and you know, with with productivity and you know, with a smile, you know, and a great attitude. I mean, that's a lot to ask folks. Um, the what's outside happening outside of jobs in the professional sphere, and then what's happening inside. So just having somebody who's willing to come in and be honest and be reflective of my own experience of this moment and what I don't understand yet.

SPEAKER_02 12:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

And and I try to use my explorations as a way to role model what I would love leaders to be saying right now. That's what I really like. I'm like kind of saying it into being, hopefully. And uh modeling, I'm prompting. Yeah. Here's the here's the language where you say you don't know, and this is what you do know, this is what you believe in, this is who you believe in, this is why it's important, here's what matters. You know, but the but the admission to of the ambiguity, the admission of not knowing, and the admission of the um, gosh, I'm afraid, I'm uncertain. Here's what it feels for like for me. Yeah. Um, that's what people I think just want to be heard about. And I don't want or need answers all the time. And it doesn't have to even make sense, you know, but I the acknowledgement of it and then the container to process it, try to metabolize it, and then and to come out the other side in a way with wisdom and and it be feeling encouraged. You know, people feel to me like they're kind of spinning off, you know, in a disconnected way. And I'm not sure the leaders know how to shape this moment and make it mean something and give that purpose. And anyway, so and I want to say one other thing, the hallway people really love, which is the uh like the when one you know door closes, a window opens, but it's hell in the hallway, which is what my podcast producer always reminded me about, you know, as I was bemoaning the fact that I was in the liminal space, the fact that I felt like I was in this passage. And I would go back to the door behind me and bang on it and say, Let me back in. I want to I want to do what I used to do. I want to know myself that way. I want to, I want to have that confidence, I want to have that connect, that certainty of where I fit and what I do and who I am. And then I can't, it's locked.

SPEAKER_03 14:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:27

And then I don't see, I'm not able to see what's ahead. And I want that certainty again. But the the embracing of the hallway, I think, is really resonating with people, but it's super uncomfortable. And we were talking about the start of the episode talking about the the the liminal and not rushing the liminal space, like really really being present to what wants to become next. You can't do that running at the pace that we used to run at. You just it just yep, yep.

SPEAKER_03 14:59

Oh my gosh. Okay, so I have like five different follow-up questions. Okay. Um first though, just to pause, and you know, it's so interesting because we're talking and we're assuming a lot of common kind of understanding. When we say like this moment, a lot of the listeners know exactly what we're talking about. And then there are people that I don't know, it that might come to this podcast and they don't really see what we're talking about. They don't really see um what this administ what this administration is doing that is so destructive to people and organizations and cultures. And they're feeling more like this is like a normal sort of politics moment that we're not necessarily liminal, that elections are like that. We have Republican presidents and then we have Democratic presidents, and then it goes back and then it goes back, and we do things one way and then we do things the other way, and the pendulum swings, and they're not quite seeing what's different about this, right? Yeah how do you reach those people? What do you say to those people?

SPEAKER_01 16:01

Yeah, it's reminding me of like my family and others. It's like, what's the big problem? Or oh, I'm an optimist, it'll all work out, or trust in the system, or whatever. But once you see what we like, what we study as a field of practitioners, right, is is systems, right? And gosh, how would I describe it to folks that think this is just this is kind of status quo, hunky-dory? Oh boy. Um, it's a really great question because it is, it's a pendulum swinging, right? So and in my I have moments where I can find comfort in that too. You know, if oh, change is the only constant, it's gonna it every I can tell you, Michael, you probably hear this too, like, oh, it'll bounce back, oh, it'll be fine. Like I'm sitting there like processing my my grief and and fear, and they're like, it's gonna, you know, don't worry. You'll be busy, you know, you'll be busy again, and everybody will have like enough work to be doing, et cetera. Um, so it's I would love to believe that. It just though feels like the structures that we counted on, and I'm not just talking about workplace, but employers for sure. My understanding of the relationship between employers and employees that all of my work was kind of predicated on has that had to me has cracked into a million pieces of and uh everything I learned and was taught in terms of organizational change is is is I I'm I'm sitting here now having seen decisions being made by people with power that completely disregard the human. Right. And uh that terrifies me. I have to say, I I haven't felt terror professionally. I I mean I have felt afraid for safety, yes. But this goes beyond um, I think to see that those who have the power and the wealth at the moment uh may continue to hold that and may continue to disregard the humans. And we've our work has always been about the humans need to need things. We need things, we need to be able to eat, we need to be able to be paid, we need to be have purpose. Uh we need to not be competing with a a technology that's been built, you know, with our uh intelligence. Um we need to be, we need to have community um to option and be happy. So I think that the systems are showing us that there is a lack of care fundamentally, a lack of caring, whatever happens. Um the the bottom line is going to be the empower and the accrual of more wealth by a few will be the priority, not only of companies but countries and powerful people all over the world. So all of this and all of this in light of a techno, an alien technology that we an alien intelligence that we don't understand and very soon we won't be able to control. So um I it makes what I was working towards, I think the project of inclusion in organizations has kind of like like what does that even mean? What does this even mean when now I may have uh non-human colleagues and I may be overseeing or supervising that? Like it's just hard to get your bearings on it. I don't I and again, I don't know if describing it that way to people that think this is status quo would even I'm not sure. I might give them a podcast to listen to with like just educate yourself about what's actually going on here. Um, but it's it's interesting, it's economics, it's financial, it's political, it's it's kind of a whole I think the scope and the the holisticness of it and realizing that everyone at the top seems to be coordinating with each other and seems to share a value set that does not have on its list the care and feeding. It that if that is true, then we have to be having a whole different conversation. I mean, even DEI, what we've done for so many years, I mean, we have to, and this is my point about the liminal space, like to stop and be present and say, wait a second, what does this world need from me now? It is urgent that each of us go through that exercise and it sucks. And I hate it and it's uncomfortable, and we don't know who we are going to become to serve that next moment. But it is really critical that each of us do this. Um, and and I think are in it, right?

SPEAKER_03 20:35

For sure. And I yeah, I think, yeah, and I think systems thinking in general can be hard for folks to really grasp. So, like even before this moment, people could come up to me and say, Well, hasn't the pendulum swung too far the other way? Oh, yeah, yeah. And and it's like, well, what are we looking at? You know, if we're looking at say disparities in wealth or health or promotion rates or retention, like if we're looking at any of those markers that we can measure, the pendulum hasn't even begun to really swing in the right way. Like we we have a lot of work to do to get that pendulum moving. If we're talking about the way we talk about pronouns, maybe that feels scary. But like, what about the systems and the outcomes that we're looking at? Um, that's a different, that's a different thing. Um and the other thing you you mentioned, which is so interesting, is the the way it's so hard to talk about. Whether that's because it kind of shatters our sense of normalcy and what we're used to, or because just saying anything feels political, and we've been trained to not talk about political things in workplaces. Or I mean, you know, I did a talk at a at a SHERM conference the day after the election in 2020. And I that morning I sort of got up, pulled myself together, and scrapped the whole thing and rewrote the entire thing. And the way that people felt like that sense of just thank you for being honest and open, everyone else here at this conference is pretending like this is business as usual. Um and and that just naming and the clarity. Like we get, and I've had episodes about the the manipulation of just truth of like DEI itself, the term, like how there's so much misinformation that's being spread about it. We don't have to buy into that. There's the reality of what these terms mean, and we can be really clear about that and what work was happening and what work wasn't happening, or what work occasionally happened, but what most of it really is. The just clear, honest talk is something that people, I think you're right, are really craving.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

Yeah, yeah. It's it's so it's a failure of language. I mean, it's it's like we, I don't know. I think what we're coming up against is a very big shift in humanity. Um it is understanding how our world works and why it works and who makes it work and who matters, and it's deep stuff. It's deep.

SPEAKER_03 23:27

Um I know, I know. I mean, I think of the you you the hallway thing real it resonated with me like it resonated with lots of folks that read it in your book. And then it got me thinking, like, are we on our way to something new? Or are we in some kind of perpetual hallway now because of the the shape of change and the rate of change? And then I thought, well, if we are getting to something new soon, it's probably something really bad. And if we're getting if we're gonna get to somewhere good, that's gonna be a long, complicated hallway.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

That is so true. Better get used to uh grappling in the dark and uh not having a map. And I do, I do you bring up a question that I have asked myself and wondered about like the linearity of the way we've built our careers and career progression and um I don't know, just like one plus one equals two.

SPEAKER_02 24:34

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

So I I I do this and I get this reaction, or you know, um, I think I think we may be in this super ambiguous, incomprehensible place. And this is why I love the banny model. I don't know if I mentioned in the book. I think I do. It's brittle. Oh, yeah, you do, you do brittle, anxious, nonlinear, and incomprehensible. B-A-N-I and uh futurist friend of mine uses that model as um as a way to kind of say to leaders like this is the new quote unquote normal, abnormal, unnormal, uh, that you're functioning in that you need to be successful in. And then you need to help bring people along and their understanding of and acknowledgement of an ability to cope with the not knowing the ambiguity, the nonlinearity of it. Um and uh what does that mean then for like leadership development and right what you know, what how do we how do I say upskill, but it is an evolution for humans, I think, who like predictability, who like patterns, who like right, to be able to follow something that's existed, a path that exists and not bushwhack your way through and you know, fight for which direction am I going every single moment of every day when so much new is coming at me that I can't metabolize it. Um so part of me worries that we are kind of wired. I don't know if we're wired for change or we're wired for more of a predictability world. And that world isn't, and so what is it going to cause in us? You know, from mental health to mass confusion to loss of purpose and you know, orienting to something that gave us meaning and kind of defined us. I mean, our entire generation, I don't know if you're Gen X, but right, we we've followed a script that came before and has been a part of our workplace basically since like the beginning of the century. You know, it's been this kind of model. Um, and that that in itself may be changing completely in the way the orgs organizations look and what an org chart does it exist anymore and is it flat? Is it in with human and non-human team members and how does work get done? And I mean, just the magnitude of what could happen next makes me just wish for people that and this is what the book tries to help people with is that we learn to thrive in the churn of that. Like that's what I'm trying to do every day, and every day grounded and anchored and written and connected to community, yes, and continuing to like make sure I'm I'm connected because we're not going to do this alone. That's the other super important thing that I think more and more it's going to be super critical, like you were talking about earlier, to be sharing these moments of truth, of wisdom, of collaboration, of um comparing like, what about this? What about for you? This is for me. You know, in a way, it's the oldest system of communication that's ever existed. And it is reminding ourselves we're human, we're wise, we have wisdom that can't be replicated yet. And that we can differentiate ourselves and continue to kind of evolve the the role we play in this world. Um, but we but we but this requires like a big change, I think, of an operating system of of I don't know, everything about how we work and what we do and what our value is and everything. I mean it's a big yeah, it's a big change. I want us to make it. I want us to make it, but I I think we're gonna we're gonna need a lot of uh light showers along the way to say, look over here like stay calm, yeah. Stay here.

SPEAKER_03 28:26

Well, you know, and uh we we do get operating systems, right? I mean, I'm a cultural anthropologist, so I look at how young people from the earliest of ages, even like zero to three years old, how their brains are constructing their knowledge about the world at these astonishing rates, right? One to two million synaptic connections per second are getting built by these brains. And a lot of that is just what things are and how they work and how what categories exist, and you know, what groups are there in the world and how do people interact? What's normal? And so changing that operating system that gets built in from such a young age, it's complicated. It's really complicated.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

And and do you believe that that plasticity continues to exist in us through any age? I would imagine.

SPEAKER_03 29:18

Yeah, there's supposedly with these windows of plasticity, especially zero to three, and then some in teenage years, um, where you have these windows of plasticity. Um, but a lot of time, but at other ages, our brains do not grow at those same rates. Um I didn't know that. Yeah, it's it I love, I mean, I'm fascinated by that stuff. I did a whole like study in cognitive psychology as well, because I just think it's it's fascinating. And and certainly you have to understand how the mind works to really understand how culture works because they're they're related, right? Um but oh gosh, what was else was I gonna ask you? Oh no. Well there uh I wonder too if you've encountered people, and this I find this so interesting too, like how you cope or how you handle or how you think of this moment clearly depends on who you are and how you're being affected by it, right? If you've got, you know, a finance job as a mutual fund manager, yeah, maybe you've got to figure out how tariffs are impacting things or, you know, but but maybe your day-to-day life isn't being impacted that much. Um, if you're one of the 600,000 black women who've been pushed out of the workforce in the, you know, that's a very different story. Like if you're someone like you're talking about who works in this field, um, if you're someone who is um Hispanic or Latino, if you're someone who is um transgender, like people are being impacted in different ways. Um how like how has that come up as you thought about what you wrote or heard from people as you go around talking about the book?

SPEAKER_01 30:58

Yeah, you raise such a good point, which we've I feel like that's a tenon of all of our teaching, you know, for all these years was differential impact, um, which is the very definition of privilege. Um, you know, and uh and it is a privilege to when you think of the liminal space and the pause, some of us are being paused forcibly. Not a lot of us, some of us maybe you have a choice because you have financial resources that allow you to be more resourced as you reinvent, as you reimagine who you are in the world. Um so, and then you know, I but I think it's it reminds me of Maslow hierarchy again, like the the food, shelter, water baseline of our human needs before we can imagine and reimagine. Um, and maybe even who knows, maybe some of us will come through this with a new sense of purpose. I don't I don't want to assume either that this is not a a birth of of the real self, you know, I uh or the the self that you have been holding off on being too. I mean, these big moments of change can can really deliver incredible, incredible change in our lives, incredible truth, moments of truth, voices for truth and courage, and um, you know, when you feel like your purpose can be ignited in this moment.

SPEAKER_02 32:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:31

So I think uh and and um if you are, yeah, I mean, I mean, it's just such a complex question because you are riding through this with different, like I say, resources, community connection, more or less like isolation or connection to people and support in that respect. So there's financial resources, there's people resources, and and I think, you know, it's a hard I think of young people and I think of them coming into this workforce, supposedly, if they can get employee. And I don't even know, I I worry, I compare it to what my younger years were like and the opportunities that I had. I think about their optimism or lack thereof. I think about how much of my realism, I guess, to even share with my nieces and nephews. And I've been told, we're just trying to like be young people right now. Like we don't want to know, like, don't bring all that heavy stuff, like let me be this age, let me be the kid, which is such an interesting, interesting thing, too, that makes me reflect on you know, intergenerational conversations right now that are real, yeah, you know, that need to be real, um, and yet are in short supply. So anyway, yeah, I I don't think Michael, it's such a beautiful question. I wouldn't, I would wonder how you would answer it. Um, I think maybe it's not an answer, it's just like acknowledgement that we are differently and then and then seek to support differently according to the struggle, which has always been what work is about.

SPEAKER_03 34:06

Yeah, exactly. Acknowledging all that, that that it's impacting people differently, like you say, acknowledging that we even our coping isn't linear, right? Like some days I'm I'm all fight, some days I'm all like you're calm, some days I'm all resistant, some days I'm all hopeless, some days I'm all looking at the stars and thinking, whatever, right? Like it's complicated stuff.

SPEAKER_01 34:37

Yeah, I would say that there's tremendous opportunity in times of crisis and and and this systemic wide crisis that we're in, polycrisis is actually what a lot of people call it. It's not just one crisis, it's it's a crisis of multiple belief systems, multiple systems that you can, I mean democracy. Like, whoever would have thought that we may not have elections, like even a year or two ago, I wouldn't have I wouldn't have thought the idea of voter suppression. But I and it's just so anyway, it it's so holistic that touches each part of our lives. And I think that can be very dangerous for humans because like what do we ground into? Um and but the return to what did we ground into before we had these systems in the first place that came along honestly, just to monetize us. The opportunity of returning to something that's older and deeper in us as humans and truer that we control that isn't dictated by those who do not have our our same interests at heart. I mean, that that question feels very juicy to me. Um, because we know how to do that, but we've forgotten. And we forgot to begin to rely for meaning and identity on systems that didn't they didn't have the same value systems as we do. Like we might have thought that they did. And honestly, it got me through 25 years of a career. I honestly never would have embarked on this endeavor if I if I hadn't, I don't know, I would have embarked on it maybe in a different way. But the way I did was I thought if I can influence one person that influences thousands of people, I'm gonna try to do that. It's the shortest direction to the somebody who holds people's livelihoods in their hands, they're driving in their hands, they're you know, we we work more hours of our lives, you know, sometimes that we live. And a lot happens there. A lot of like growth and stimulation and orientation and community. Yes, friendships.

SPEAKER_03 36:44

Yeah. So that's what drove you towards working with leaders in the first place.

SPEAKER_01 36:50

I mean, yeah, I did because I was that little LGBTQ coming out person, looking at the workplace, being like simultaneous, simultaneously kind of disgusted with I was like an activist in my 20s, and I never thought I would ever tangle with a corporate. But then I think I just I got my master's in OD, organizational change, and I studied systems. And somehow I got very interested in I think the courage that it takes to lead and the profile of a leader, and you know, what does that what does it mean to put yourself out on a limb every day as leaders do? And then what is it, what does what do ethics have to do with that? What does emotional intelligence, what does accountability look like? What does how do you shift these complex systems with humans in them that were I think are so unfortunately elemental to our ability to pay our bills, get health insurance? I mean, there's a very interesting podcast my friend did that that traces the moment back to the moment decades ago when it was decided in America that employers would be responsible for health care and that our health care would only come from employers and only come from being employed. And there was there were a series of sort of accidental decisions that were made because of totally other factors that ended up ended us up here.

SPEAKER_02 38:15

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 38:15

Anyways, so it's just very it it fascinated me, I think. And it um yeah, and that was kind of what drew me, and and I as an LGBTQ person, I that was closeted. I it I felt powerful as a demographic. I felt proud of my demographic. I felt I wanted to advocate for us. I wanted us to be at the table, I wanted to be us to be hired, I wanted us to be respected, I wanted us to be acknowledged for how talented, talented we are. I wanted us to be acknowledged as yes, the consumers that we are. And and and the and the very kind of eyes wide open consumers that we are, right? We are not afraid to hold institutions accountable. I mean, the first time I saw that corporate equality index, which for some of you that are listening to this may not know, it's the index that the LGBTQ community uses to hold companies accountable and gives them their rushing orders for policies, protections, language, et cetera. It's been around probably what, Michael, 30 years?

SPEAKER_03 39:16

Yeah, something like that.

SPEAKER_01 39:18

Yeah, but it's just an incredible tool. And I think when I saw that, it's like, oh, so we can influence these big powerful institutions to treat us better. And and with my new, newly minted masters, I was very excited to you know get into that. Yeah, so that was how I started.

SPEAKER_03 39:37

And um well, and how I mean, that's a great segue because in the book you also talk about how work has become in so many instances so not human, so cruel, so ignoring of people's humanity. Um like how do you what would you tell if you had a leader here that you were working with, right, uh on on this podcast with us, how do you reach them to help them both understand how to navigate this, you know, this world, this Luca Bani world, whatever you want to call it, um, and do it with some humanity as well.

SPEAKER_01 40:23

Yeah. I know. I wish I could, I could I wish I could reach people quickly and at scale to say, say what got you here won't get you there, to quote the book with that title. Um and A, to say, and and you're probably noticing that not a lot of things that you used to do are working anymore. Like naming it, you know, saying, like, I it doesn't work anymore. I I don't know how to build trust when I am having to talk to my people about this, and I'm don't know how to communicate this, and I don't know how to open this conversation, and I don't know how vulnerable and honest to be as a human versus a leader because you know, we are both in this in this body. We're leading, but we're also human, you know, and leaders are in the pinch because they're getting leaned on by the you know things above them to say, make this happen, do this. I, you know, I don't care how it happens. Yeah, the leader has to be the one that determines how it happens ethically, as much as you can. And yes, everything is set against you. Yes, it's true. It is true. Leadership is hard and it's being tested right now in I think ways that I couldn't, I thought include being an inclusive leader was a test for people. And I remember it seems almost quaint that I was like, hey, you know, be a more inclusive leader. Here's the here's the path, you know, and I've written these books on it and whatever. And now if that if it were that, my goodness, because I think that's so well resourced and understood and written about, and there's so much you cannot say that you're not surrounded with helpful resources on what that means. What do we mean? What does it look like in practice? Like, whatever. Don't even tell me you don't know. Yeah, but but this moment though, um, the playbook, I mean, literally like everything. And so your your question is is important, which is so how do I be in this? And how can I put my head on the pillow and feel I have today, I have acted ethically and I have prioritized the humans that work with me and for me and in the organization, which fundamentally the shape of it may be completely changing. But what did I do? I mean, I it's simultaneously protecting. It's protecting, it's um it's elevating uh humanity and what makes humans brilliant and special. It is um communicating, uh encouraging people to embrace something that feel makes them feel all kinds of things, threatened, fearful, um distracted, certainly not as productive. So calming the nervous system of the human, you're never gonna get anything from the humans in your organization if we're all just like jacked up all the time based on what we're trying to digest right now. So is a leader a calming presence? Is it an orienting presence? Is it a grounding factor? Is it someone who reminds us of who we are? Is it someone who reminds us of what we do that is irreplaceable in any equation, in any system, at least so far? And is it someone who says we cannot predict the future? I don't know. And I don't this is what I do believe in. This is what I do bel think we are. about this is what we are endeavoring to accomplish here are our shared the shared vision and here the here's why you're important here's why you matter here's why we need not just all your the the ways you used to perform and the ways that you will perform may be different and i'm here and we're here to move through this change together and i will be learning alongside you you know that humility yeah i think all of those things calm the calm us so that we can actually even listen and move because i i think we're immobilized by all of this i mean i'm not this is just we're just humans we're animals you know we're not we're not the the 24 seven machines can't we can't disregard what people are going through and you know the book um starts with grief and loss and surrender and those are the first chapters and leaders that can help people through the process into the hallway and then help people stay there and understand how to function there and really get the most out of every moment where there's always possibility and opportunity leaders that can contextualize that and enable people to feel to feel kind of comfortable being really present. Yeah um I'd like to hear that more I don't think anyone knows how to communicate in that way as as far as I can tell and if they did they're afraid to because I'm I think they're probably I want to I want to say the things I want to say but I'm not allowed to or I'm not allowed to lead in this moment in the way that I really want to I would imagine that's what's going on.

SPEAKER_03 45:37

Yeah are you seeing any examples of that being done well you know uh yeah I mean I I love our our our friend Tristan Harris who has a new movie out called AI Doc how I became an apocalypse okay I just I just love him I I think he's showing leadership right now yeah I like but he's not a corporate leader and I I don't know I I'm not as inside organizations for obvious reasons than I used to be so I I'm not really witnessing Michael but I don't know about you uh who do you think is kind of striking a balance and um beginning to a new new new script new going up I think it is rare like you say I mean certainly in low profile ways working with organizations I see leaders that are able to do that whether that's you know executive leaders or just people who manage people and they can do that for their teams like I see small examples of that um occasionally big examples I you know what comes to mind is something like um uh what the CEO of Marriott said when he was being asked about inclusion or something he's just like what are you talking about like our people make us what we what we are we're gonna take care of our people we have always done that like what's the what's the question here we talk about Costco too Costco like yeah exactly great story that is too exactly but just staying true you know and and it's like having your hand on a rudder in a boat where storms are trying to throw you all around but you're just steady um and and at least with with the values and with the humanity part of it. Yeah so I sometimes see that but it's hard to figure out I mean it's you know this it takes a lot of work with leaders sometimes I mean they can be for whatever reason maybe they've they've had a certain leadership style forever and that's what's gotten them to where they are or maybe it's a certain privilege which creates a lack of understanding. You know I remember working with one CEO who we were talking about um exclusion and and he told the story about how, yeah, sure, you know, in high school he was the he was the starting quarterback on the football team and everybody loved him and um but then one day he went to a teammate's house and that teammate in that house they were speaking Spanish and he didn't understand it. So he understands what it's like to feel exclusion. And um okay bless your heart that's a good starting place to like grasp on where they're at Michael yeah grasp onto something where you can relate but then there's a lot of work to be done to really help people understand how that's not what we're talking about when we talk about people facing consistent exclusion or inequities right that's important and so it it takes work and practice and honestly support to in organizations a lot of times leaders don't get the support it they're just it's it's being put on them to just kind of magically do it without systems that support and train and and enable them to do what they sometimes know they should be doing right yeah yeah there's so many reasons for it you've you've outlined a bunch of them and that was why it's neuroplasticity I was thinking about our question earlier yeah this moment requires such a reset and I wonder and I worry about you know the age of many leaders who are in super important positions and influencing what happens to and how so many people feel in the process.

SPEAKER_01 49:35

You don't have to love the outcome but what a wonderful goal to you know shepherd people through a change. Like you know and and but shepherding you know we've always kind of known I think what the change would result in.

SPEAKER_02 49:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:52

So you're now shepherding people through a wilderness and you don't know where the edge is you don't know that there will be um a resolution like you said is this to be a steady state of chaos and and incomprehensibility. How do you walk with people in that space when you are walking it yourself.

SPEAKER_03 50:11

Right right nothing is yeah and you don't know like you're saying I mean a lot of times what feels like great change is a hallway and and things return largely to the way they were I mean I'm thinking about COVID where in the middle of COVID it felt like oh this is gonna dramatically redefine the way we work as societies and we're all gonna shop local and support local businesses and like take care of our communities and this is going to change everything. Right.

SPEAKER_01 50:42

And then yeah it changed remote work but like it didn't change the fabric of our society right um and I so you just don't know yeah you just don't and we don't know about this moment either right that's and it's a hopeful thing to say and remind ourselves too we don't know like your example's well taken because what we thought would happen but something else happened that we could have anticipated I think we spend a lot of time and I'm so guilty of this like wanting to know the answer right and kind of ruminating constantly um versus I think being very present to like like quiet the noise and really listen inwardly to to who do I need to be want to be now and and is that a different way of showing up and even the fundamentally what I do for a living and you know I could I could decide some people who are affected by maybe they made a lot of money and maybe they change and you know take a different kind of job now because we realize our lives are finite and our time the clock is ticking and there's nothing promised and we haven't we haven't gotten to the work that's meaningful to us in our lives. I mean I'm you know coaching a lot of people who are spinning out of these a paycheck every two weeks um scenarios and having been an entrepreneur for so long that is a future for a lot of us and so I I'm grateful and I'm grateful that they may go forth and kind of change the world now that they have like the the bandwidth and the focus and the and and a charter that feels juicy to them and they get to show up in the world in a very different way you know and be actually maybe for the first time like really proud of like the legacy that they may leave. That's yeah what a beautiful thing but the disruption is the catalyst yeah and I think it's true for me too I'm going in many different directions now and I'm I'm sort of freed from some kind of rape as the structure dissolved yeah we are freed from certain things. And I think that's super important too to remember we are being freed from what do you mean freed from in this moment that feels so hard that now gives you uh space permission um maybe some time um to dream about it again we stop dreaming when we get older too we stop our imagination starts to I mean imagine us as younger people we thought everything was possible yeah so we got a big channel back into that so true are you able to share some of the directions you're going in well uh I love this change stuff honestly I I still am kind of feeling pulled back to the org um but it's about the bigger stuff we've been talking about you know the the changes in the workforce uh workplace um what is just trying to kind of if we can even imagine and kind of put our hands on the elephant like one hand at a time like what is it going to look like or what could it look like and then what capabilities would how do we shepherd our people through this change and to and towards what and can we influence the shape of that? And and and how can we retain our seat at the table as people who run talent for example and think about culture and are are accountable at least so far for humans in the organization. You know, what does that even look like? I mean it's a very I find it a very it's super like urgent and relevant and allows me to bring so many different pieces of of my own knowledge and curiosity and my oh what I used to do before DEI and like I I mean it's just this moment calls on all of us uh pieces of us that I think maybe we haven't used and haven't brought in to the picture maybe in a in a long time I mean I I don't know about you but if you've ever felt wow I've been really focused on this thing for a long time and there's this there's a lot more that's unfolding and there's more in me. You know there's more that can be pulled forward.

SPEAKER_03 54:57

So yeah I think the change absolutely yeah absolutely if you know we've been we've been touching on this like the I sometimes refer to it as the the field formerly known as DEI um like the artist formerly known as Prince. But if you you know and you talk about how maybe some of the way that was operating was good to reevaluate or shed um if you could if you could envision where you would love to see that work move to or what it could look like like what do you envision with that it was always about responsibility to humans.

SPEAKER_01 55:39

It always it was always about valuing human contribution. Yeah all human contribution. So really the field may be not existing in the same way but the the essence of the work the inquiry of it the juice in it to me was like can I thrive is it important that people thrive is it important that people reach their full potential and that they're not prevented from doing that is it important that people evolve yes um is on is it uncomfortable to evolve yes what are the elements of evolution is there such a thing as accelerating that I don't know decelerating as accelerating I mean I mean it's almost like so slow to go fast. I mean in the limit we are slowed and yet like it allows us to go back way back into what we were talking about earlier like our what we know deeply in our bones like that was not the built system of our world right not capitalism not companies trying to make a profit blah blah blah right we built ERGs as like little ports in the storm to be safe in this about what that says about the system. The system is toxic and you're gonna need this group to survive and then over time the groups you know became business drivers or we tried to get them there. But it it was all defined though not by the system it's really interesting. Like when you get some distance from things I think you can really see how it was built and why it was built and you can have so much grace for us because we were just trying to survive trying to thrive I just want to thrive I just don't want all these obstacles in my way I don't want biases in my way I don't want to be underestimated I don't want to not be at the table like all of this was was so so fair and so right to want oh yeah we still deserve it.

SPEAKER_03 57:46

Yeah and so not controversial. No nothing I just said is illegal and that's the thing too is when you see the research about what Americans actually want it's largely that you know it gets politicized and manipulated but when you strip out the the the you know charged words we have a lot of agreement on what people would actually want we really do.

SPEAKER_01 58:14

I I yeah and I think you know did we did we leave some people behind as we kind of sprinted forwards towards progress and in the in the in the movement that you and I share maybe you know maybe I always worried about that I I was aware that we were leaving behind people all along who do you think what who do you think about when you think about people that were left behind well uh I think we well in the LGBTQ plus community we left trans people behind in order to get legislation passed. I mean so we left we left parts of our community behind and I mean interesting but socioeconomically communities have been left behind for like how some just discards one after the other so I mean how far do we want to go back like yeah but but I guess you know I think we were leaving behind folks who had been experiencing exclusion in our economic system and the destruction of their livelihood you know and the and the and the fallout from that in parts of the country and part in certain you know states and certain industries the whole industry um anyway so I I think we we are taking our place in a way another comforting thought weirdly is each of us will have our turn and we will have our in this system will chew us up it just chews us up and spits us out at different points. So that's the comforting thought yeah and but it it's it's only comforting I mean it's not the right word it's orienting for me because it's like okay it's my turn and you know what what a blessing to have loved what I did for so long. Blessing a beautiful thing that I don't think a lot of people get to feel in their lifetime is loving your work. Like and loving the humans that you do it for and yeah and and just feeling a sense of community that we felt and feel like you and I like we don't talk that often but we're like I mean it's like you're there and I'm here and I can just it's a node with like a million spider web of like caring people and loving people and and that is so comforting to me but I um we have to extend that web and we always needed to because there were people weren't ready to digest the learning that we were giving and it was a bit too advanced I think and too whatever threatening unfamiliar to really metabolize. What do you mean I'm a racist if I'm not an anti-racist like yeah hold up like yeah like let's just let's just let's just pause on that and like understand how is that delivered how is it received how is it how can we help people come to the understanding that we want them to come to so I think the losing of people also happened in that way. Yeah and um you know and it was all I would never blame anyone because the pent up anger and passion for this is so long overdue and so intense and everyone so hot. For sure yeah so it's it's more I think every movement has to go back and say hmm do you know where what were our choices and and what who came along and who didn't and what was the impact of that and what could we differently and would we have done something differently you know I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:57

Yeah and I think we'll have the opportunity to do that because we've got you know people are always going to be complicated and workplaces are going to have to figure that out and we're gonna have biases and we're gonna have inequities and if humans are biased as so many of your guests you've had all the the opportunity to do that maybe in a different way right maybe in a way that's more focused on systems and outcomes and um and doing the work kind of quietly but firmly rather than like loudly and performatively as sometimes it happened.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:41

I love that I and that's that's very much in our sphere of control what you're saying which is my community and the and the local piece is not is not an accident as you bring this up. You know I do think as much as we talk about systems and uh where the change will happen is the local and yeah and um I live in a small town now versus Manhattan and it was a big change a couple years ago. And I I am oh my goodness is it nourishing in a way that I had no idea I needed and it and again it's it's way back to our human cells and our communities how they looked before they needed to generate things or we needed to move to a city to have the job to whatever whatever.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:24

So the closer we can get even if we you know listening to this you're living in a city and everything but just even naming this kind of human what is the sort of human need for community what does it look like do you have it in your life do you have people who know you who are checking in on you who are checking on your life who you know make enable you to feel a sense of belonging I think who who helped us feel belonging in that workplace that will change because if that workplace is is transactional now and it all probably always was the question's going to be like where do I go for belonging if it's in this in this structure this structure has problems and the structure is has shown us we we know we've seen a lot now and it's like trust this structure anymore like but then the question is who do I trust to be in community with yeah and the LGBTQ community know we we've felt that it hasn't been perfect but we felt that and that's been such a tremendous gift in life that's great.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:27

Yeah oh gosh so many interesting things Jennifer I feel like we can go on for hours and hours um but um I feel like we should we're gonna have to wrap this up so get back to their their days um this has been amazing where where can people where should they go to read more about you and your work and your books where should they go?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:51

Yeah so I'm mainly these days under Jennifer Brown speaks. So if you look that up on Substack I'm there. Perfect I'm writing we're doing Substack lives um I'm leading a program at Omega if you don't mind my mentioning this in October please yeah it's an open enrollment program at Omega which is in Rhinebeck New York um please investigate it come join us for a weekend a lot of this kind of conversation is going to be happening it's called wisdom.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:20

Yeah so my Substack um LinkedIn obviously Instagram um it's called the shape of change you mentioned it and if you're listening to this and you don't know about my other work I'm finding interestingly that how to be an inclusive leader the second edition the book before the shape of change these two are like really nice they fit nicely together and there's still some organizations Michael that are probably listening to this that you probably support that it still are doing the work yeah of inclusive leadership. So you can have that the book before the shape of change will be a wonderful resource for anyone that's listening to this. And then the Will to change was my podcast I had forever and ever. I'm on a bit of hiatus from it. But last year's episodes, please go back and listen to them if you want more.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:09

It's so impressive that you've done so many episodes of that podcast. Almost 400 episodes. Oh my gosh. That's amazing. Congratulations.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:20

Oh, thank you. You know, I learned it it evolved me. It changed me. I mean, each human was just so impactful and um grateful for it.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:30

That's lovely. Um, so Jennifer, sometimes I like to give people a little sort of homework assignment if they feel like, I don't know, watching something or reading something or listening to something or trying something or journaling about something. Um, in addition to reading your books, which I recommend folks do, what else might you suggest they could do to kind of reflect and deepen what you've been talking about?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:59

Maybe as much time as you spend with technology, either using it, learning about it, doing your AI homework or whatever. What if we were to spend an equal amount of time with our teachers in nature? Like what if? Like I just I think we've got to get pretty radical these days. The encroachment is so intense. And um I've in the book, there's tons of nature images and metaphors, and um so much learning that's that's coming into me about cycles, about seasons, about change, lessons about change. Um, and and lessons for us in terms of patience and being present, um, and taking the time that it needs, the time that nature takes to go through transitions. Like watch the transitions happening around you. Try to get into that, and then remind yourself okay, there are many timelines here. There's the timeline of that capitalism wants me to be productive in, and there's a timeline of technology that can run as faster than I can. And then there's the timeline around me. Um and there's a human timeline of change that how fast we can move in the system. So just try to like balance, just try to seek balance in that and um allow these inputs to come to you and and really kind of take root in you.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:24

Yeah, that's great advice. And you know, that that metaphor of encroaching that I as a parent, I especially feel a parent of especially my my two teenagers. I mean, it feels like if if you if you are not sort of keeping the the forest at bay, it will the technology will take them over.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:52

Yeah, you must feel like you're constantly like, not this, that, hey, like you know, you're yeah, you are protecting for sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:00

Yeah, well, it almost forces you to overschedule because okay, well, if they're at soccer practice, they're not on a device. If they're, you know, if they're playing the piano, they're not on a device. Like it almost forces you to do that in a way that I wouldn't have thought that was important 15 years ago.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:19

No, no, you're being such a good parent for even knowing that this and trying and trying to hold the line.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:27

It's hard to feel like it, but thank you. Yeah, yeah. Um okay, excellent, excellent. Well, thank you so, so much for joining us. I know people will have gotten so much out of listening to you. So thank you, thank you. And let's talk soon.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:44

Thanks, Michael.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:45

All right, bye, everyone. Phew! That's a lot to think about. I hope you got something valuable out of that conversation. I'm sure you did. I know we didn't talk necessarily about specific tips that you're gonna enact tomorrow, um, but I do think this kind of big picture reflection and thinking is super important. Work is changing, people are struggling. We need to think about what it means to be a leader in this changing world, how to lead with humanity, with humility, how to put relationships first. Getting in that mindset is really essential, even before thinking about specific tips. Now, if you are someone who's been trying to make workplaces more fair, if you are someone who has called themselves a DEI practitioner, or maybe you still do whatever you call it now, I urge you to approach that work with steady commitment. You know what's right, you know it's important for people, you know it's important for organizations, you know it's important for the world. You know there's evidence that we can use and evidence we can gather to guide us in the work. So maybe this disruption has caused you to think more big picture. Maybe it causes you to despair sometimes. That's normal. Maybe it causes you to think about how we can do the work even better. Right? Sometimes reflection does that. I know I've done that. Um just don't give up on the work. We need you. The world needs you. We need that calm, confident, steady approach to making things more equitable and inclusive for everyone. We need that. Please reach out if you ever need someone to talk to, to strategize with, to vent to. I am here for that. Michael at irisinclusion.com. All right, be well, everyone. Speak to you soon.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:02

So that's it for today's episode of the Culture Advantage Podcast. Head on over to Apple Podcasts, iTunes, or wherever you listen, and subscribe to the show. And join us on the next episode.