Episode 9-Walking Together Through Leadership, Community, and Relationship with LewisCardinal

Join hosts Tammy Rae Lamouche and Dr. Zahra Kasamali for a conversation with Lewis Cardinal, Chancellor of St. Stephen's College and a member of Sucker Creek Cree First Nation in Treaty No. 8 Territory. Together, they explore leadership, community, and the importance of building relationships rooted in respect, and reciprocity. Drawing from his work in Indigenous education, communications, and community development, Lewis shares reflections on walking together in a good way.

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:20

Welcome to Mio with you to win, Stories That Teach and Heal, a podcast grounded in story relationship, and indigenous ways of knowing and being. My name is Tammy Ray Lamouche.

SPEAKER_03 0:35

And my name is Nara Kasamale. We are grateful to gather in conversation with you today. We would like to begin by acknowledging that the University of Alberta is located on Treaty 6 Territory in Metis Region 4, a traditional gathering place for many indigenous peoples, including the Cree, Blackfoot, Metis, Nikodasu Dene Soto, Anishinabe, Inuit, and many others whose histories, languages, and cultures continue to shape this place.

SPEAKER_04 1:08

In today's episode, we are so honored to sit in conversation with Louis Cardinal as we reflect on story, leadership, relationality, community, and what it means to walk together in good ways.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

Oh, I'm honored to be here. Thank you so much. Of course. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_04 1:37

Yes, so honored to have you, Lewis. Um also representing Treaty Eight territory. Yeah, if you want to begin by introducing yourself in the way you'd like to for others to know who Lewis Cardinal is.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

My name is Lewis Cardinal. My uh traditional name is CP Gogisick. Um and that's the abbreviation of uh the one who comes from the deep blue sky. And uh with that name, uh the elders and ceremony leaders were saying that the work that I would do in my life is to build bridges between two worlds that don't understand each other, but not so much as to as to have them meet in the middle of the bridge, but to for each of us to cross over to each other's side and to learn what is good and to share and to bring that home back to our communities. I'm from the uh Sucker Creek Cree First Nation. And um uh my third great-grandfather was uh Chief Mustus, and his brother was uh Canusio, and they made treaty number eight. They were the leaders of the of treaty number eight. So looking back to them, I am honored by their inspiration and their and their incredible foresight and how to look after the people, but also their ability to build relationship in order to move that grand dream uh forward and into reality. Um I'm an educator, um, I'm a newly minted filmmaker. Actually, I went to university to become a filmmaker and producer. And so now um when I turned 60, I said, you know what? That's what I want to do now. So that's what I started to do. And um I'm uh I've lived here in Edmonton for a very long time. Uh I've uh taught at this university for quite a number of years. Uh I've taught at the University of Colorado Boulder. I I did my PhD studies here in Indigenous People's Education, and I'm now the Chancellor of St. Stephen's College. That's one of the hats that I wear.

SPEAKER_02 3:44

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

And um and I've done a lot of work in urban indigenous issues. Because as we know, over 70, well actually 75% of Indigenous people in Canada no longer live in their traditional communities. They're in the urban centers. And so we need social infrastructure, we need voice and representation. So a lot of work I've been doing was focusing on that as well. But I also teach in in Indigenous governance traditions, uh, as one of my favorite things. But uh yeah, so that that keeps me busy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:16

Yeah. I mean, you just finished filming a really amazing docuseries. That was a big project. So yeah, you're you're really busy.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

And you were a big part of that as well. And uh, you know, I ask for forgiveness making you shoot until one o'clock in the morning. But if we're talking about stars, it should be dark, I think.

SPEAKER_04 4:39

Yeah, exactly. No, it was so worth it. It was it was an amazing time. And I know we just finished wrapping up here not long ago.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

So we're going into post-production now. That's editing and all the other stuff that comes together with it. And we hope to have it finished in uh October, towards the end of October. And then APTN is gonna decide when they want to air it. Uh it's called Kichigisik Great Sky, and it's about it's a 13-part uh half-hour episode on uh Kree uh astronomy and cosmology. Of course, the center point of that was uh elder and knowledge keeper uh uh Wilfred Buck. I mean, he's the best of the best in understanding the Cree traditions of the sky, which is just a wonderful experience all overall. So thanks for being with us.

SPEAKER_04 5:24

Yeah, of course. No, it was quite the experience. Um and just to be surrounded with the language Nikhia we win was the center as well, and working with Jerry and Wilfred and Neil and Lorna, like it was just that's right. I was I the the sky was was you know, it was um almost like our little our little teaching board. Yeah, but being able to sit under under Kichigisik, the great sky, and to be amongst all these elders in these knowledge papers, like I felt so privileged and honored. And yeah, thank you for that.

SPEAKER_00 6:02

Thank you for doing such a great job. And I know you learned a lot of Kree while you didn't. I did.

SPEAKER_04 6:07

I learned a lot of Cree as well. And again, um I know our dialects are are pretty much the same, but where we come from, you know, we have our own our own way of of speaking Nihil Uin as well. They call us uh Bush Cree, good Latin Cree. Yeah, it's it was a quite the experience.

SPEAKER_03 6:29

Um, on the note of your starting your sort of educational journey with filming, which I didn't know that you had done that actually, because there's been so many pieces, you've been involved so deeply in many different layers. Before we started filming, you had mentioned another forthcoming project.

SPEAKER_00 6:50

Yeah, we we have uh we have a couple very interesting projects. We have three of them actually that are in the development stage, one of which we we we shot a uh trailer for. Uh that is called that will be called uh Blood and Sinew, an indigenous uh history of of Canada. And so the blood is about blood lines and the sinew is about um uh kinship, right? And and through that kinship, we're looking at treaties as as adoption ceremonies. It just gives a different perspective on how uh what treaties mean, right? Oftentimes people think of them as contracts that have gone bad or something like that, but no, there's a depth to it. And also, and I'm kind of countering the uh the CBC's old uh uh uh can uh Canada of the people's history. And so we wanted to take this other tact that looks at Canadian history through the lens of indigenous relations and family ties. And so what I do, and um, I believe my brother's gonna be a part of this as well, uh, Lauren Cardinal, uh Corner Gas famed guy. And uh so him and I are looking at the origins of our family name, right? And we and I'm I'm a genealogy nerd, right? I've been doing a lot of genealogy and tracing up the Cardinal family name. And how it then uh comes to Canada and well, not Canada, but British North America at the time. Um no, New France at the time, uh in in 1659, right? So it was a Frenchman and his wife and their sisters and their families all came at the same time and landed in Ville Marie, which is um uh now called Montreal. At the time there were only 250 people in that village, and in all of uh uh New France, there were maybe 3,000 uh Frenchmen that were here. So it was just really at the very embionic stage of what would become Canada. Anyhow, it's uh it's about us finding finding out, oh, okay, we're related to this person, but there was this major historical thing going on, right? Um, and how we're tied to that, how the extended family, all the different families that are interconnected with each other were a part of that as too. And bringing their perspective to what those historical moments were. Amazing. So looking forward to seeing that. Well, so am I. Once we get funding for it, and then we're doing spirit markers, which is the story of uh this Cree syllabics, which is a fascinating story in and of itself. Yes, you know, the standard story is James Evans, the uh Lutheran minister, um, had invented these things, but the stories and the evidence kind of is pointing in another direction. It comes directly from uh from our peoples. Yeah, and there's a beautiful story about it, and so that's what we want we want to tell. And especially in line with how we're recovering our language, right? And our traditions.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

I agree.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

And then uh the other one is the 1970 red paper. So that's uh that's what we're working on right now. Yes, my my uh Uncle Harold Cardinal led the Indian Association of Alberta uh during that time, working with the chiefs and the elders of Alberta. My father was the vice president. So my brother and I grew up in that uh eye of the storm during that time, and there were a lot of things that were going on that we didn't fully understand, but only now we we've started to piece it together what we were witnessing and and what it meant to so many different people. But we're we're telling the story through what's happening now and why the red paper and the protection of treaties is is uh is rising again as we're being challenged with uh the abrogation of our uh and degradation of our treaty rights. Again, we're back to the 1969 white paper, but it's being done in a different way. So that'll be the tension that goes through this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:36

Important stories that need to be shared and um our histories that need to be shared. Uh, I'm just I'm I'm so I'm so honored to be sitting here right now and you know, and hearing about you sharing your family lineage, and and um there's a question I had in regards to your your genealogy, and and I know that there's um people even in my communities that will link back, and a lot of their last names were Kree names prior to, you know, yeah, like the the English version of the last names. So it's yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

Well, that's what makes it difficult to really do uh especially when it comes to our people who didn't like keep records. We kept records, but in the oral format, right? And that's why the that's why when we introduce ourselves, we would say, you know, these are my parents, these are my grandparents, you know, here are my chap. Yeah, and so people know where your lineage comes from, right? And then some people can even go further back. But what does that do? Is that it positions you in this reality, it connects you to something that is greater than yourself, yeah, and that you belong to something that is greater than yourself, and that's what really people need, and that's why to remember these stories and to tell the genealogy of your of your people, your family is is an act of healing. And so that's why that's important to me, because then I'm finding all these stories that I've been able to pick up that people just did not know about. And so when I share these stories, I just came back from Sucker Creek, my first nation, and they're saying, Louis, you gotta come back and do a whole presentation, the whole community needs to hear this. Right, right, yeah. And so that's that that raises the spirit of anyone to to know the accomplishments of your past and uh and who they are.

unknown 12:27

Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:29

Thank you for that. And you've spoken to this so beautifully, Lewis, that we were wondering in terms of your work surrounding relationships, dialogue, and community building across different spaces. Yeah, what has guided this for you, this direction towards this work, and what continues to sustain this in your life?

SPEAKER_00 12:50

Well, doing my research in Indigenous governance is one thing. Uh understanding the history of my family adds to that uh as well. Um and seeing the power of um of the circle is really something that's really set the foundation for uh uh for what I've done and building relations in order to accomplish things, right? Um the one example I'll use is uh Kijikao ASCII, Sacred Land, which is the first urban indigenous ceremony grounds. Um myself and elder Will Campbell presented the first discussion paper to the city of Edmonton in 2006, because we simply knew, and a lot of our people here in the city knew and have always said we should have a place where we can do ceremony in prayer. So it's not a unique idea to me. Um all I did is I said, well, let's let's do this and uh let's let's move this idea forward. And it took us 16 years to get it built. The resistance initially was incredible, the racism, the discrimination, uh, the slow walking things were, you know, just it would bring you to a point you're saying, well, why do we even try it? But once you start thinking about when you think within that indigenous framework of generations, taking one generation to build something that will last many generations is worth it is worth the investment. So we did. So we've got uh, what is it, uh seven hectares of land now? It's called uh Kitschikawaski Sacred Land. It's in the White Mud Uh Creek Nature Preserve. And uh and when we worked with the elders, we and the elders and the community, we utilized the consensus process, which is the the talking circle process, the the building of agreement from from everyone. And so we had practiced that uh back in 2006 at the same time uh in developing the Edmonton Urban Aboriginal Accord Relationship Agreement. Everything was done through consensus, you know, and that was uh that could be that was a risk, I guess you could say. Um because it um it forced us to get into our tradition of decision making. And so that meant there was a lot of show shuttle diplomacy uh going on. So the the relational aspect can never be overestimated. One of our great teachings within uh our traditions is that it's all about relationships. And when we when we when we lose sight of that, we lose sight of balance within ourselves and within within the community. And we always have to honor ourselves and humble ourselves that we're not the only entity on this planet, you know, that we are a part of something. We are not it, we are a part of it. So the circle then becomes that symbol of us sitting together, whoever may be in the circle and sharing each other's voice, right, as it goes around. That from that we educate each other, we build trust. And so that was the foundation of how these circles work. And seeing that in action uh during the Indian Association days with the red paper, that's what they used was the circle and ceremony as critical point. So for me, it became applicable because I I grew up in the city when a from from nine years old uh on, and I didn't see myself here. There was no cultural reflectivity. And uh with the uh the amount of social discrimination and racism that we faced, you know, it was for me, I called it dog killing day. Um if some people know what that means, um, is is that you know, you feel you you always have to keep your head down and you have to kind of hide and disguise yourself. And I just felt that that had to change ever since I was young.

unknown 16:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:40

Thank you for sharing that. I know here at ATEP, we're so grateful that we have access to sacred land, that we're able to gather there from Matatsan. And, you know, that sense of kinship and healing and belonging and wellness that being able to gather in that way is able to support. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

Yes. Well, the intention is it's not just you getting in touch with your culture and your identity. That's what those two are very important things, but it's getting to know your connection to the land. Yeah, 100%. Sitting on the land, taking off your shoes, walking through the grass, right, sitting by the creek, um, listening intently, slowing things down, holding a tree and and and and and and talking with uh the the spirit that is there. It makes you feel that again, you're never really alone when you're walking on Mother Earth because your mother is right there with you. Right. And so when people start to feel that and experience that, uh there's a lot of clarity that starts to come through in terms of what what a person needs to do with their life, right? So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:47

Yes. And it's finding your your walk thing here in a province setting as well. Yes. I know a lot of people, you know, like you say, like it's uh usually it's it's a higher percentage of off-reserves, you know? It's uh probably like 60 to 70 percent, even like the across Canada. Across well, even in my community in Treaty 8, like a lot of people have to live off reserves, so they come we come to the cities, not not to just to pursue our education because there's never enough housing in those areas.

SPEAKER_00 18:21

So employment opportunities.

SPEAKER_04 18:22

Employment opportunities.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

Education, that sort of thing, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:25

But we were never meant to live on the reserves, is what uh I was taught by my uh my grandfather. Uh, is that those lands are called reserve lands, land that we keep for ourselves. And um it was supposed to grow as as the population grow. But what we're supposed to be doing as indigenous people, or Cree people, is to be out in the world living your life, pursuing what it is that you need to pursue, right? To live your dream, not to be clamped into a small piece of land with no opportunities to expand or grow um as an individual. And it was um so we're out here. And so my first nation uh has uh about 900 people living on it, and we have a population of 3,400.

SPEAKER_04 19:06

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

Yeah, yeah. And our population is growing fast.

SPEAKER_04 19:11

Yeah, yeah. Yep, definitely. Like usually, like there's I think even for our community, there's about 3,400 on the band this doesn't mean everybody lives in that community, but again, you know, I know that when people come into, you know, these urban settings, even like the and attend these big institutions like U of A, they want to find uh that connection and that community. That's right. And knowing that there is access to, you know, um sacred land to come there and to practice ceremony, but even like you said, just to come and be on the land. And I think um a lot of them don't really have that uh they'd have to drive home, you know, just to stay connected. But to but to be able to create a space where you can practice ceremonies, but also practice language, be immersed in it and finding community and and practicing um mio jitu and honoring those relationships that we have. And it's just it's beautiful. Yeah, it's so beautiful to I I've I actually had the honor of attending ceremony. Yeah, sacred line.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

Good, good, good, good. Um, we also have uh changed uh the policy within the city of Edmonton to um to have access to the whole river valley park system in the city for indigenous people to do ceremony and cultural activities. So it's there. We had to change that first before we knocked on the door with our proposal. So yeah, we learned uh we learned politics. But what we did learn the most was that even though there was a a uh a um a lack of understanding of indigenous people and and why ceremony is so important, because they kept thinking of ceremony as religion. Um and it's it's more than that. And so uh we had to spend a lot of time talking with people and uh bringing them into circle. So we sl it took quite a while. But once they started to understand, once we brought them into more in into more ceremony, because you know ceremony is done in a circle, they started to really understand what where we were coming from and what we needed, right?

SPEAKER_02 21:27

Right.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

And it took it took a long time. I mean, we've got a lot of stories of what happened, but eventually it shifted, and then suddenly they said, Let's get this done. When we started, we would have say, Is it possible that we can do you know so and so? Immediately go no, you know. And uh we'd say, Well, why? And you know, and this one I don't know if we can do that. But once they did that shift, once we took the time to uh educate them uh and to share with them our our traditions, when they changed, suddenly Their responses to our requests became, let's see what we can do. Just that shift from that to that made things go a lot more faster. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:10

Those are powerful words. I'll see what I can do.

SPEAKER_00 22:14

Yeah, that's right. You know, because that's that's the most honest thing you can do. You don't know if it can happen or not, right? But let's see what we can do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:22

Yeah, chief and counsel's famous words.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

Mine just goes, no.

SPEAKER_04 22:30

But speaking of of that journey and um when we talk about community, when you think of your life and your leadership journey, what teachings or values have um most grounded the way you walk with community and with others?

SPEAKER_00 22:49

That's that's a very good question. Um first of all, I don't see myself as a leader. I see myself as an Oscopio, a helper. And um my grandfather taught me when I was uh 14 years old. He said, you know, he he said, you know, looking at all these young people on our First Nation, he said they're and he was the chief at the time. And he said, you know, they're always complaining, well, there's no work to do here, we can't do this, and you know, that sort of thing. But he said, you know, the truth, grandson, is that when you become an Indian or become Cree, as he was uh trying to point out, he said, once you understand what what what that is and you accept that within your life, he said, you'll start to see there's always work to be done. You know, there's something in the community that needs to be done. And so that's that's the route that you take, right? And the second thing he said, but go to the women first to make sure that you're doing what they really need to get done. He said it's a wise leader who always goes to the women first, you know, because our ideas could be called a many mami, as they would say. But yeah, the women say, that's nice, but this is what we need, you know. So then we go off and we do it, you know. So that's uh my grandfather was a wise man.

SPEAKER_03 24:07

I love that advice about, you know, there's always something that has to be done, and seeking that balance in our relations to understand how to proceed.

SPEAKER_02 24:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:17

And on that note, I mean, you've often spoken about the importance of relationship and collective responsibility. And you've addressed this in many ways already with our conversation today. But for you, what does Mio Wachitawin walking together in a good way mean to you in today's world?

SPEAKER_00 24:38

You know, we created uh the first urban indigenous governance structure here in Edmonton when we were doing the urban aboriginal court relationship agreement. And working with the elders, we said, What should we name this? And they said, Wachitawin. They help each other. Yeah. And uh we said, well, that that's true. Because when we went through the whole process of uh uh of our research and community dialogues, and we went everywhere, had talking circles everywhere to see what the priorities and issues were. We had non-Indigenous people who invited themselves to participate. And that's fine, because you always have room in the circle, right? That do up. And uh so we um uh we listened to them and we added them into our our findings, right? And so then we created uh, what was it, 22 priorities and and issues that uh they felt needed to be addressed. Uh and then we got criticism because uh of non-indigenous participation. They said, well, that's all skewed, you know. That's that's you know that's not a valid sort of thing. We said, okay, well, this is what we'll do. We'll take out all the all the people who are non-Indigenous or non-aboriginal at the time, um, and then see what they have to say, and then see how it compares to what the indigenous people have to say. And they matched, you know, they matched. They said, yeah, this is the same thing that they saw and they thought was important for uh for us. So what that said to me is that by participating in in these uh forms of uh consensus decision making, because consensus is not only coming to a common agreement with everyone, say that's a good idea, let's move that way. It is a healing process. Because when you utilize consensus as a decision-making process, it forces communication. So dialogue becomes a ceremony in itself. So with all that shuttle diplomacy, that was a that's a part of consensus. Because then when you pull people into a circle to make a decision, they're already prepared and they understand what the issue is. Instead of what we do in uh contemporary decision-making things, like in uh, you know, in chief of counsel, for example, that it's oftentimes it's the first time they hear the idea when they're meeting the oh, okay, well, you know, give me some time to think about that. But the opposite is true for for consensus, right? And one of the teachings that come out of consensus is that if you within Western tradition, Western European tradition or liberal tradition, is that when you do not say anything, the assumption is you agree.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

Oh yeah, that's neat.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

But within our traditions, if you don't say something, we assume that um we assume that you need to be talked to to find out what it is. It's that you disagree. You see, if you're not saying something, you're disagreeing with it. So it's it's the opposite from those two worldviews, right? So what does that mean? That means leadership uh has to go to the people and has to and and ask them. Even if they won't talk at a table, they will talk away from the table. But then that provides a lot more information. Because when we use the circle, and the circle is a definition of relationship, right? We um when because each of us are sacred beings, we were we were born in response to a prayer, is what elder women have taught me. And we and the babies that are born come down with their little fists like this, all right? They're carrying their gifts and their uniqueness in their hands. And our job is to help open those hands in a nurturing and supportive way so they can become who they need to become, and and to provide that gifting to us through their life.

SPEAKER_02 28:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

Because of that prayer that was said before, long before they were born, right? You were called down here, so each one of you are unique. So that's why we sit in circles and we say, here's the question at the center of the table. What do you think? And then you start sharing it, sharing it, and sharing it, sharing it, sharing it. And what else could this question hold? And then we share it, share. What we do through that process is we create a multidimensional understanding of what the issue is. But because if each of us are unique, uh, with life experience and gifts, and just who you are, you're providing a different perspective. And so that's how we are able to collect that information and build trust. So even when you're sitting in a circle, uh people will have a disagreement. And that's why you have elders there, because they're saying, okay, you do, let's come and talk over here. You know, let's let's settle what your difference is, right? And then we saw people uh who've had long-standing disagreements come together, able to do one thing, rectify the situation, bring peace, or be willing to put it aside for now so that community could move forward. And so through that process, that's how we did everything. Even with city council, I told them, and I was rolling the dice on this, I said, I will come to you four times to uh to to support this, yeah, and to give us money, right? And uh and first of all, I went to all the general managers, and uh, you know, they I said, You all have to agree, or else I will I will not come back after the fourth time. On the fourth time, they all agreed. They voted unanimously. I did the same thing with the city in order to approve what we were doing, and went to them four times. On the fourth time, they all voted in favor.

SPEAKER_04 30:18

I can't imagine.

SPEAKER_00 30:19

But that's how it works, and it's all about relationships.

SPEAKER_04 30:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 30:23

Because the other thing that we've learned about this in relationship building is storytelling. You know, being able to tell a story, uh your life's story or something that you've experienced in your life, is is is going a lot more deeper into who uh not only who you are, but what the issue is or and and that story that you're sharing, be it a personal one or otherwise, when you start to see yourself in another person's uh stories, you know, that's the first thread of a relationship. Because you say, huh, I had a similar experience like that. Boom, you're getting closer already, right? So that's the first thread. And you pull on that, pretty soon you're you have a bridge, yeah. But it takes that consistency and following a process, which is the indigenous process of decision making, that you're utilizing the circle, the talking circle, consensus building, that sort of thing. But it leads to that core, it's all about relationships.

SPEAKER_03 31:23

So you've spoken to it like just so beautifully within the ethic of Mio Wachitawin and being able to honor the gifts that everybody brings, and that sort of slowing down and really thoughtfully juxtapose that difference in worldview within Western traditions, and that silence doesn't mean compliance. That's right. And that everybody has a voice together in that decision making and consensus as being healing, which I really appreciate that you've spoken about it that way. And that this that decision making and dialogue is an act of ceremony that way.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

And we were able to bring forward um the important issues we needed right away. So we created the first um Indigenous relations office in in Canada, um the first sacred land, uh art parts. Suddenly, the city of Edmonton started to shift. Suddenly, so when we when we started this whole thing back in 2004, we had, and I was the chair of the Edmonton Urban Aboriginal Affairs Committee, we only had from the from a staff standpoint at the city of Edmonton, we had one person dedicated half a day a week for what we needed to do. And we said, we can't get anything done, we don't have any support. Now they have 17 people working in the Indigenous Relations Office who act as a conduit directly into city corporations. Suddenly things started to change. So we created the Edmonton Urban Aboriginal Corps Relationship Agreement, the Edmonton Declaration, 2005, strengthening the relationship between the city of Edmonton and Indigenous people in the city. And um those documents be challenged the policies within the city itself. So the city then had to adjust its policies to those two documents. And and because of that consensus process that we used, um the the three orders of government with their uh funding envelopes aligned their funding envelopes with what the people said. So the people lead and the leaders will follow, right? So that that demonstrated itself as well. It's a power it's a powerful tool.

SPEAKER_04 33:37

It is. And you're bringing like our the old ways and how we use the govern ourselves, the the governance structures and bringing them into um understanding like what Kree Law is and like bringing that, you know, into the the urban space. Those are all important. Um, I mean, when you think of your work, it has bridged indigenous community, education, advocacy, ceremony, and I mean your your work connected to Kicherdawiski has just has been incredible. Um, here in the city of a Misquichi Wisk. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 34:20

And this the city of Edmonton is now regarded as the um um the how did they say that the high watermark of urban indigenous relations across Canada. And we we'd been asked to go speak at the United Nations and UNESCO on what we did because there was a huge there's a huge migration going on of Indigenous people into urban centers. And they say, well, what do we do? How did you guys do that? That sort of thing. I was even invited to go speak in Melbourne, Australia, about uh about how to create an uh urban indigenous ceremony area for their people. Because the Yarrow Yarra River that goes through the city of Melbourne is pretty much a dead river because what they did is they, you know, they filled in all of the uh wetlands and uh, you know, blocked up a lot of natural uh uh water features, and they wanted to reclaim that and bring it back to life. And the wisdom that they had is that we need indigenous people because they know the songs and the stories and the healing that needs to take place uh with that river. So that's why they wanted to build a ceremony space, and that's why they asked me to come and speak about how we did it.

SPEAKER_04 35:28

Wow. Well, your work is is uh inspiring people internationally. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 35:35

I hope so.

SPEAKER_04 35:36

It's a that's but that comes from because it you're coming from your place of being a scope and a helper, yeah, and it's helping other people, you know, want to want to take that next step in those initiatives to to bridge to to connect. Yeah, you know, I think that's really important work, Lewis. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 35:56

Yeah, and there's always more to do.

SPEAKER_04 36:00

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 36:02

Yeah, yeah, there's always something more to do.

SPEAKER_02 36:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:07

That way, yeah. And speaking to your work as a Scopio and how often today you've spoken a lot about healing and that importance of coming together in support for generations to come, that it's not just for now, but thinking ahead into the future. That we know that many people today are searching for that sense of belonging more than ever, and healing and connection in a world that can so often feel fragmented and disconnected with you know the amount of insecurity and the unpredictable nature of life that we continue to see. For you, and I know you've spoken to story in so many ways already, but what role does story and dialogue and community play in helping people find their way back to each other?

SPEAKER_00 36:57

Well, although especially the storytelling part, it's a unifying uh thing. Yes, right, and it's also uh it's also a form of trust building. Because when you're sharing something, a story about yourself, for example, uh, you're laying yourself bare. So when we sit in circle, uh, or when we when we utilize this consensus process, the uh the the the process of sharing the stories is about building trust. And and and that trust then is what leads to the foundation of a good relationship, right? And so what I've realized, and and um other people realize this too, uh, but is that we need more dialogue, not less. Because when you have dialogue within any community, you sit and you talk in an honest and a good way, right? And you seek healing and you seek seek resolutions to problems, um, you start to build a um it's a sacred space, especially when like how we opened up our talk today. We've created a sphere of uh of creativity. And so that's what happens when we sit in circles, is that and then and then when we're there, our ancestors are gathered around us, and then it believes, and then we believe that the creator comes and sits here and listens to what we have to say when we do that in a in a good way. And oftentimes I would invite you know non-indigenous people to say a prayer as well in their own in their own way, right? So you're putting together these religious and faith stories in the center to help guide us. You know, because ultimately everything leads back to uh you know the creator, whatever we want to call it, or however we see it from wherever we come from, right? And so through that, then we uh you know we've learned that when you when you do that type of work, you begin to uh understand uh a lot more of uh of the other person, right? And so that's something that uh storytelling really helps uh pull together. And what were the other uh two?

SPEAKER_03 39:03

Just related to also belonging as well. That's yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 39:07

And I'm using the uh Edmonton Urban Aboriginal Court Relationship Agreement again, because we had people who come in, sit in the circle, and we have you know the issues we want to talk about, and we're asking each one of their opinions on what do they think or what do they want to share. And I remember this uh it happened more than once. Uh a non-Indigenous per person was sitting there and said, you know, all I wanted to do was sit here with you guys and share my story. And I've never been listened to, you know, and nobody's ever taken anything I had to say seriously, but you all listened to me. And so we recognized that that was really important. So what we did is that when people would speak about issues, we also gave them the right to say, you know, if you don't want to record it, that's fine. But we put them on big flip charts, stick them on a wall, right? And we write down what we thought we heard, and then give that gave them the opportunity later to uh to correct it, to add to it, or whatever. And then when all that was said and done, uh, we then put that put it into an appendix. So the your city, your voice report can be found in this uh in the city of Edmonton. You just type that in and you'll be able to find a copy of it. But there are appendixes that we added, and that means every meeting that we had, we put down what we had written on those sheets, but we didn't put names behind it, right? And I remember seeing this cookum, she had the appendix, and her grandkid was there, and she goes, Do you see that? I said that. You know, so they needed to see what they had to say and what the decisions eventually became. So it was because of their words that they added to what eventually would happen, right? And so since, yeah, since um since the Accord Relationship Agreement, Edmonton has led the way internationally and nationally for Indigenous relations. That's what happens when you work with spirit, right? And you work in that in that good way. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:02

Thank you for that and of reminding throughout of that importance of that generativity that comes alive when we put creator first and are connected in that way.

SPEAKER_02 41:13

Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_04 41:14

Yeah, a chalk is important and it's connected to who we are as Nikia Wag, but also even our language.

SPEAKER_00 41:22

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 41:24

Connected. Um when you think of educational institutions and educators, um, in your experience, what responsibilities do institutions like U of A and educators like yourself carry in supporting indigenous students' communities and futures in meaningful uh ways and again in relational ways?

SPEAKER_00 41:47

Yes. We space is so important for Indigenous people. Uh we need physical space, and and I'm happy to see the uh First People's House uh up and coming.

SPEAKER_02 41:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:01

Trying to get there um it's a long journey, right? Um, and I'm happy to see it's finally here. So we have that space there, and that's a good space to have. But we need space in the faculties uh as well, um because we need to be able to uh have our own specific groups in there, uh, be able to talk and share. I mean, these are student services things. Um, but then also we need policy space. You know, we need to see uh the support of Indigenous community and space within the policies of the University of Alberta, particularly the high-level policies. You know, the uh so we uh that space is really important. It does a couple things. One is that it creates a sense of belonging. Again, we need to see ourselves where we're at, and there's still a lot of room to be done here in the U of A in terms of reflecting that. And this and this uh new new building here is is uh making that announcement, right? Um there will always be conflict amongst in within uh human relations, but there are processes in how you can address that. Uh a part of those conflict resolution uh strategies can be built into um into the university itself. Uh indigenous uh leadership should be a part of the uh University of Alberta leadership. Uh unfortunate that I'm working with a college, St. Stephen's College, which is a multi-faith uh graduate uh school. And so they they're taking that that tact of making that space for uh for indigenous uh participation within the programming and that sort of thing. I mean, they let me in. I mean, what can you say, right? And so um so and then also the relate the space to create relationships with uh uh other non indigenous groups, right? Um that that that

SPEAKER_03 44:00

needs to take place because we be as indigenous people here at the university we become teachers you know even if you're a student you know and because we're always uh trying to educate uh our our colleagues about who we are and why we do the things that we do but when you're dealing with uh brass tax politics it makes it difficult to uh to achieve those things but persistence uh and vision always helps to move move things forward clarity and where do you get that from you go into ceremonies right and yeah and and so I'm happy to see because when I was working here uh when I was f first started working here in 1997 um they wouldn't let us smudge anywhere right wow and they said you have even trying to get some money to pay an elder they're saying well we need them to fill out this form and you know birth certificates and it it was crazy but uh but through persistence we started to create our own tools we created the uh the University of Alberta Aboriginal uh advisory council right utilizing uh our consensus decision making process and we move things along really fast and quickly yeah but yes space again it it goes into all those different different areas and then into the curriculum EDU211 for for example took quite a while to get that done there was resistance with that oh absolutely yeah yeah I remember that my my first year in the university was like in 2015 or 2016 I took that course yeah and yeah there was like a petition going around I remember that I I taught that for uh I think three four years yeah you were at the very beginning when I was doing my PhD studies um and so I was also director of what was called native student services at the time um and so we saw what the needs were once we created for example uh cultural opportunities and things um and also providing a a a deeper um deeper set of of supports uh the word gets out into the indigenous community we still have the moccasin telegraph that's uh yes you know that's still very effective telegraph and so more indigenous people started to come here so we grew the population from I don't know by three four hundred people within within three four years so it's it's because they said oh you know this is what they can do for us created the first uh indigenous uh housing program in in Canada had the largest donation given to us half a million dollars um uh from a private donor uh you know as an example of things that can be done um and then we had our round dances we had our first round dances in the quad right and so it that started to make that community happen and it invited other people to come and participate right so and that changes yeah so much so much that you've contributed to and continue to support and uplift and it's just so inspiring and amazing and you've spoken so much to of course that importance of ensuring that on a policy level that indigenous voices are put to the forefront institutionally and how important that is especially at a place like U of A that more of that is needed on the ground floor and speaking to that in those connections as you reflect on younger generations of indigenous students leaders and educators and community members what hopes or teachings would you want to leave them with?

SPEAKER_00 47:40

Never say never um because in my experience I've been told oh you can't do that. You know no they're never gonna let you do that. Well they did. And why? Because of perseverance and tenacity um and trusting the process that that you created those those teachings uh are found within within a lot of our traditional stories indigenous people across across Canada but also you know just cultures around the world you know if if we did not believe that we can change things and do things that are considered impossible I don't think anybody would have crossed any ocean. Well that's a big ocean I don't think we can do it and then walk away but we we have you know oceans of misunderstanding that we need to cross and so but it takes courage to do that and and and and the trust in the tools that you have and and so uh things are possible uh for change but also it's about how you build relationships because in 1970 when we were defending the red paper uh against well fighting against the white paper we didn't do it alone you know we did it with uh a lot of non-Indigenous support particularly the media but a lot of a lot of uh communities uh in interfaith communities uh political communities stood stood behind us and the federal government realized they are not gonna win this and it actually would work against them if they continue to forcibly assimilate uh our people and eradicate our rights the same thing happens today you know you have to take the time to build the relationships build the trust in order to accomplish what you want to do the problem is you also have to be patient because oftentimes we want things to move fast especially in this time of you know speedy communication you know which is ironic because with with so much uh so much um technology in communicating with each other the World Health Organization and the CDC in the United States have declared an epidemic of loneliness particularly for youth yes so that means let's get back to talking with each other and listening to each other's voice in real time with with physical presence is always helpful. Yeah because that is also the uh uh the anecdote the antidote to the rise of authoritarianism yes yeah research has been done on this is that when people start to come and talk together they'll set the decorum in their community of what's acceptable or not but if you don't and you're just listening to the bubble that you that you're in uh that doesn't happen then people like what we're seeing now slip into positions of power yeah you can't replace that face-to-face you can't and human beings are softwired or hardwired however you want to say it to be with each other exactly in community need that we do yeah we do and I look at you know amazing people such as yourself like you know that's how you've you've created the work that you have not with just within the the university but also within the city and I think you need people to come in and be like those those um almost like you're like this trailblazer and and that just opens that door because then there is it allows more work to continue and to keep making that ripple effect.

SPEAKER_04 51:09

So that's that's how everything is started and that's how you know we we fought against so many things as indigenous peoples and our voices are you know making making waves and we're coming together like the decorum that you were just talking about is just bringing people back together to that space listening and hearing and and um respecting those relationships and honoring them. That's right. But yes it's so great I'm even me just sitting here just as you know as a as a student and just like as a friend and just you know I've just been so amazed by and and inspired by you sharing your stories, your teachings and um reflections with us today.

SPEAKER_00 51:59

We are so grateful for this conversation and for the work and relationships you continue to nurture in in a Misquichi Uskayan community in the greater community internationally even say my last statement here because what I failed to say is that the quality that we've brought what we've shared you know in the work that I've done here in the university in the city that sort of thing it has improved uh a lot of things the attitude of the city has changed considerably and it it it is is what they they say you know they call it Redmonton for a good reason right because because we're a lot woke I guess you could say than most other cities but when indigenous people contribute to all these levels of governance and governments in the way that we need to sharing the stories of wisdom and the knowledge that we have it brings very positive changes to those environments that you're in. And so what's good for Indigenous people because people have tend tend to think that oh they're just doing this for themselves but actually it changes the whole environment and adds to it right and creates something new and something uh more positive. We'll always have uh as human beings we'll always have these foibles and these and these flaws of taking too much walking out of balance and uh walking out of harmony and uh destroying relationships but the elders say we have a ceremony for everything. Because what do ceremonies do? They bring us back into balance. That's the purpose of of ceremonies.

SPEAKER_03 53:40

Beautiful you've reminded again so much of that importance through your guidance of that it that need for relationship and as you have said not taking no for an answer and being persistent and resilient in that way. So I'm deeply appreciative that and that sharing and it's just been such an honor hearing from you today and we're really grateful that you've been able to join us on another episode of our podcast Mia Wachitawin Stories That Teach and Heal and that we hope for everyone that today's conversation has offered a great space for reflection connection and learning in good relationship thank you.

SPEAKER_04 54:24

Yes the honor is mine yes the nause thank you so much Lewis um I'm excited to this is gonna be shared with all of our listeners on Apple Spotify Amazon yes um yes thank you so much exciting and for our listeners until next time please take good care and walk gently with one another