Companionable Silence | Lynn Casteel Harper

What do you do when the people you're caring for can't give you certainty that you're doing it right?

Lynn Casteel Harper—minister, chaplain, and author of On Vanishing: Mortality, Dementia, and What It Means to Disappear—spent years with people living with dementia. Not trying to fix them or bring them back, but learning to read a different kind of language: silence that isn't empty, presence that doesn't require words, companionship that survives the loss of recognition.

This conversation is about what she learned in that work—about gentleness as a form of power rather than weakness, about staying present when certainty isn't available, and about what happens when you stop trying to eliminate uncertainty and start learning from it instead.

We talk about Hannah Arendt's distinction between power and violence, the Biosphere 2 trees that couldn't grow without wind, why she's writing "ungently" about gentleness, and the question that keeps coming up in these conversations: what are you loyal to that you didn't choose?

If achievement has brought you to questions your current framework can't answer, this might be for you.

Transcript

George Laufenberg 0:03

This is the Principle Uncertainty. I'm George Laufenberg. Lynn Casteel Harper is a minister, a chaplain, and the author of On Vanishing: Mortality, Dementia, and What it Means to Disappear-- a book that came out of years of sitting with people living with dementia in nursing facilities and congregations. Lynn and I were neighbors in graduate school a decade and a half ago, and this conversation picks up threads We never quite finished. We talk about silence, what it holds and what it risks about gentleness as something other than softness and about what it means to stay present when certainty isn't available. The central questions that brought me to graduate school and eventually to the dissertation work were really about how people's sense of their capacity to change their world, meaning their experience of themselves in the world, how that changes, how the horizon of possibility moves, right. And how that in every context in which I have been near it as a question, has always seemed really bound up in our relationship to uncertainty and our capacity to tolerate not knowing. And there's a, there's like a facile on its surface. Like Yeah, there's obviously a relationship there. There's also something that I'm, starting to tease out, and there are like 97 reasons I was excited to sit down and talk with you. One of those 97 reasons is that you think in such. Graceful ways about uncertainty and the un vanishing work and just conversations we had a very long time ago. I just, I'm so curious to hear, you know, I, I would love to hear how, like, from from Lawrence Drive to Bridgeport, your work as a reverend, I, you know, can you, can you give me, you know, give me a, a, a sense of how you think about the arc?

Lynn Casteel-Harper 1:52

Oh gosh, yeah. Great. Great question. Um, and I lo I love, I love that you've kind of focused in on that word uncertainty. Think about that a lot. Um, especially over the years working with people living with dementia. And if they need certainty and I need certainty as their pastor or their friend or chaplain, it leads into a cul-de-sac. You know, it just doesn't seem to go anywhere anyway so my arc, gosh, I, I was working as a chaplain in a nursing facility and and I felt such a compulsion to write about my experiences as a nursing home chaplain. Almost like a manifesto kind of quality within me. Like, if I don't write this, like, something's gonna happen to me. Like, I just, I felt so compelled. And so I, I went ahead and just spent those two years writing full-time. I got a little bit of grant money and was able to work on the manuscript. So, from South Carolina, I moved to New York City. Ended up getting a job at the Riverside Church, um mm-hmm. As their minister of older adults. Moving out of kind of a more institutional environment in a nursing facility and now in the community working with older people. And now in this kind of like broad where I used to walk on units or floors and. Sort of work in people's homes to now like, oh, they graciously come to us on Sunday, or, you know, graciously invite me into their homes on occasion, you know, and things like that. Or, or we meet in the hospital or, uh, so it became kind of like a community chaplain role, pastor role, which I loved that transition because all of a sudden it was like what I was seeing in the nursing home. Now I'm seeing this fuller picture of people's lives as they go through these changes, uh, yeah. Their families, the broader context and getting to be, impactful at different points along the way. Yeah. Which was exciting. So I was at Riverside seven and a half years. Through COVID and it was you know, formative, transformative, all of those things. We had a very, very strong older adult group that, had been sort of neglected when I arrived, which is one reason. Yeah. They were kind of like, oh, you like older people? You know, all the ageism, right? Like, there's this group that's been part of the church and it's kind of struggling and they feel neglected. And so you really, you wanna work with these people, you know? Yes. Yeah, I'm being a little cheeky, but you know, it's,

George Laufenberg 4:43

no, I get you.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 4:44

Not an uncommon kind of vibe around older people in church. Like our church is dying and they're the representation of our dying church. You know, it's like, oh, guess what? People don't hit an age and just die. So, anyway, So yeah, it was really exciting to get to work with this very small sort of remnant of a group and Yeah, and see it just thrive and grow into this really vibrant community of people. Multiracial, mul, multiethnic, and a group of older people that I always felt like kind of led the church. Yeah, they weren't. Its past, I always said there the, its future. So exciting. Exciting and very, very hard and exhausting work too. Yeah. Not because of the people, but because of the, you know, the culture and the, the structure of a working within a large institution. Yeah. Within a large city and a very trying moment. So, and all of this is happening. We were in the city for eight years, ryan got a position at Fairfield University. In Connecticut Jesuit institution. You know, they have a missional impulse and they wanted to reach out to Bridgeport students, first generation from immigrant populations, Bridgeports, a scrappy post-industrial Yeah. They ended up you know, renovating this old, uh, abandoned. Catholic church and campus, um, and transforming it into its own campus in Bridgeport, in the middle of Bridgeport. So I began to look at churches up in Bridgeport and there was one church in particular that I had had my eye on for a while, and they'd been without a pastor for a long time, kind of smack in the middle of Bridgeport. And it, it was a, it's been a good fit. So we, we found each other in all of that congregational church. And I started there back in August. We bought a house last May and just decided, you know, Bridgeport's gonna be home. Um, and unless something, you know, moves us beyond that, but it's, the church that I'm a part of is very small. So going from Riverside, 1800 members to, uh, about 40 members and 20 of whom are active and in church. Wow. So we're definitely a family style church, a faithful remnant that have stuck with the church as the neighborhood changed or, you know Yeah. All those things. And they have this beautiful building that's been there since 1891 and they, they see the building as their ministry. And so we host a Haitian congregation. Like our, my, our congregation is primarily white locals. Local folks generational whose grandparents parents attended the church and they've raised their children. Like it's a generational kind of church that also has attracted some neighborhood folks. So we have a contingent of like Jamaican women who come. So, and then we host a Hait. When I say host, I guess a Haitian church, like they do their own thing, like we welcome them and offer space and a Hispanic church as well meets in the space. And we have a gymnasium. So youth empowerment programs and, yeah. It's a, a fa a playgroup that comes of children and families in the neighborhood. They come and use the space. So, yeah.

George Laufenberg 8:21

So when you, when you said building is ministry, I wasn't sure what you meant at first, but I'm getting like, this is literal in, in a very little sense, literal sense about holding space.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 8:31

It's very literal. Yes. It's beautiful. Like, it's a very, that's beautiful concrete. Like here is a building on this corner and it's on a bus line. You know, so we, the bus literally drops off right at our corner. And it's within walking distance. We can actually walk from our house there too. It's about 30 minutes. Um, so there's sidewalks and it's just kind of a vibrant corner, um, that has, you know, attendant, uh, vulnerabilities and. You know, people in need of food and housing and all those things. So the, the church does what it can. We have a walkup food pantry that just pops up four days a week on our steps and Nice. So yeah, the building is ministry and it's just like, it's there. It's, hard to miss kind of place and thankfully the people who have been such stewards of the place haven't kind of hunkered down and been possessive, which I think. Can happen in the face of like, you're dwindling numbers, we're gonna kind of like clinging to, but this is our space and we're guarding it and it becomes a fortress. And I think they've really resisted that and wanted to be more of a community hub. Um, so I, you know, it's exciting to me. It's, it's a very purple place politically, uh, having come from Riverside where people wore their politics on their sleeves and there was a high and engagement and high uh, energy and passion. And here there's, uh, I'm more of like a New England Reserve within the congregation. So, so that's. It's been a journey for me to learn how to read. Mm-hmm. The si the quietness. Mm-hmm. And yet, George, I'll say this, like what I am finding is while there's a deep discomfort around talking about politics as such Yeah. They, every step along the way seemed to want to do what's right. Hmm. And so when we had some issues related to ice and one of the groups that meets at our building and they were scared to meet at the building.

Speaker 3 10:59

Yeah.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 10:59

And you know, the board come, came together and we brought resources and like, what is our policy? And at the end of the meeting came up with a written policy that. First of all said at all of that, everyone, regardless of, you know, immigration status is welcome, you know, and so that's like the first line in the policy. And then we will not share information, you know, just kind of down the line. And I thought that was a real moment. 'cause it could have been like, oh, we don't wanna enter into this. Or, yeah, we, you know, wish the best for this group, but, and they went there and developed this really humane, so learning that silence doesn't mean apathy or it's, uh, different anyway. I've talked a long time, George. We've

George Laufenberg 11:55

no, I, I so appreciate it. Then I, I, can you say a little more about reading the silence? I mean, that was an interesting moment and what you were just saying, especially in, you know, intention with like, the very affirmative statement of like allyship that I think you just articulated, right? Yeah. Like those are, that's, that's the opposite of silence in some sense, right? Right, right. Yeah. Say more about the reading of, of silence. There's,

Lynn Casteel-Harper 12:19

well, I think with this group there's a reserve to, I guess like reflecting on this, like coming from New York City, you know. People use their words, you know, it's, it's

George Laufenberg 12:34

no notes. Love it.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 12:36

And so that could be a way of kind of knowing where you stand, and knowing where others stand and it kind of mediates a relationship of either we stand sort of together or we're oppositional or whatever it is. Um, and so absent that, it's kind of again, back to uncertainty. Trying to stick with a silence rather than immediately either try to shut it down, is something unproductive or project on it. Like silence as as passive aggression. Silence is disagreement, but not saying anything or silence is apathy. That it can actually be, listening a way of where we're listening or we prefer to speak in other ways that, that our language comes through our acts of mercy. Which this congregation does to a t very, very carefully and thoughtfully and on time and backpacks for kids at school. And, you know, food out four days a week. And the preference is one of more like kinesthetic, as opposed to always verbalizing. Sure. Uh, our belief you know, and as I'm saying this, it's like, you know, work with people living with dementia or work with people who language through speaking isn't their first mode of communication. Like, honestly, I should have been more prepared for that with the congregation and less sort of destabilized. But yeah, being able to sort of apply the, maybe the lessons from other areas of life takes a while.

George Laufenberg 14:32

It's so interesting, Lynn, I, I, you know, as you were describing all of the kind of nonverbal work that goes on at the level of the congregation, that it seems to me, if I, tell me if I'm hearing you wrong, what I think I hear you saying is that, that, you know. You know, I might use a metaphor like the ante at the table for the possibility of that silence being as generative and welcoming and productive as it is, is all of this labor, all of this like genuine sort of showing up work that happens. And I, that was a fascinating lateral you just made to the work with dementia folks, because I, I was immediately wondering, like, okay, so in this context, right, you have a situation where all of this, you know, showing up, chop wood, carry water, you know, makes, it, creates the conditions of possibility for you know, this, what could be such a fraught experience of silence, of not speaking out on behalf of people who are the victims of political violence in real time, all of this stuff, right? And instead the silence turns out to be this other thing. Right. There's, you know, something like somewhere between patience and grace. I, you know, I don't wanna start assuming too much, but and, you know, and then you went to the dementia work and, you know, my, I'm wondering like, my God, how, like, is there an analog in that context? What does it look like in the context of, you know, I mean, you know, infinitely better than I do, like the particular cadences of, of loss and disappearance. 'cause you've done that work, right? Like, what's, is there an analog for the kind of work that goes into creating the possibility of silence as this profound generative space? Hmm.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 16:13

Yeah. I'm, I, I was introduced to this concept by a daughter in the nursing home who. Would sit by her mother, and her mother was dying and her mother had had dementia. And and she, you know, said she sat by her mother in companionable silence. And I always loved that addition of companionable silence, the, with the, yeah. And it may, it makes a lot of sense to me that that would apply to dementia. That we sort of come with a, a posture of companion ability beyond, cognitive ability. Yeah. That our companionship isn't tied to what. Someone is giving or what we're able to give in the executive function realm,

George Laufenberg 17:06

you know? Sure, sure, sure, sure. Um,

Lynn Casteel-Harper 17:08

so, but then to like make that leap, as you say, or the analog to other communities where it's maybe the halt, the feature isn't cognitive disability. The future is, we're a community of faith with a lot of different things going on. And we're Protestant, so, you know, we love words and we love preaching and love bible study and things. So what does it mean to kind of apply companionable silence and those settings too? And I think it's efficacious, but now that you've sort of lifted that up, it's, cause I think what they, what I'm picking up on is that they're being companionably silence with each other and with me, when I say silent, I mean it's not like they don't. Converse or chair, but kind of without that edge of like, could you do this? Or Why aren't we doing this? Or it's like that. Is it sort

George Laufenberg 18:01

of a walking gently around certain things or It

Lynn Casteel-Harper 18:04

seems to be maybe to preserve community. And so there's a one side of me that's like, that can be problematic if we're avoiding

George Laufenberg 18:15

Sure.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 18:16

Something that if we didn't avoid could actually take us deeper.

George Laufenberg 18:22

Yeah.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 18:23

But there's another part of me that's like, it could be a way of preserving a kind of friendship, kinship that allows us to not see if we think alike. Or, but instead just, okay. We probably don't think alike, but guess what? We are still doing alike. So we rise to the occasion of a distressed group meeting in the church.

Speaker 3 18:55

Yeah.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 18:56

Or we, you know, rise to the occasion of hunger, justice in the community and wanna be a part of that. So, I don't know, George, you've been, you've been with groups too and Yeah. LED groups and in a classroom too. And how do you sort of preserve a kind of unity without it being sort of like a false unity or,

George Laufenberg 19:20

Yeah, 'cause power, right? Because power is in inextricable in that I was also thinking about do you know Parker Palm? Is that Quaker? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Love. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Wonderful. He actually came, he came to Princeton while we were there. He was there for like a day once. It was an amazing, goofy, delightful. But like I first bumped into him through this little volume that is called Let Your Life Speak, listening to the voice of vocation, which is to me. Oh, so good. Right. On a lot of levels. Most, I feel like I've

Lynn Casteel-Harper 19:50

given that out, like a pamphlet, like a, like an evangelist pamphlet, but yes,

George Laufenberg 19:55

that's true. Yeah. I have given out more than a couple copies of that myself over the years. And like, I mean, you know, not only does it have the most succinct articulation of the vocation question I think I've ever been near, which is Right. Like, what's the sort of, like, what's the thing you find yourself doing regardless of what your actual job is? Right. Which you have to have lived a little bit in order for that to be a meaningful question.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 20:15

Yeah, yeah.

George Laufenberg 20:15

Yeah. As it turns out, right? Like he talks a lot about way opening behind you

Lynn Casteel-Harper 20:19

mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Where you can

George Laufenberg 20:21

see, you know.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 20:22

Mm-hmm. But,

George Laufenberg 20:22

It's his chapter in there on depression, Lynn, that like lingers and haunts me and has been, healing in some. It has been important in some very visceral ways, right? That like, you know, the sheer exhaustion that comes with having to perform the ostensible efficacious of somebody's attempt to be helpful, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 20:42

And,

George Laufenberg 20:43

and the, you know, him talking about how like the thing that was most helpful to him in the darkness was like one friend who would come over once a week and rub his feet. Yes.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 20:54

Yeah.

George Laufenberg 20:55

Like, that was the thing. There's no talk, no need to perform anything talk. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It was, I mean, like when you said companionable silence, that's immediately what, you know, like,

Lynn Casteel-Harper 21:04

yeah, no, that's, you know, so, such a powerful chapter and I feel like Nen talks about that too. Henry Nowan Of course. Yeah. This idea of, yeah. Even the talking can become a burden.

George Laufenberg 21:20

Yeah.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 21:20

Especially the, the demands of talking. One of the sort of beautiful surprises lately is I've been in touch with this person who teaches non-speaking autistic students. And he teaches them, or he does, he says, they make me use the term teacher, but he sees them as, you know, friends. Yeah. Poetry. And so he has chronicled so many poet, non-speaking poets work. Wow. In very powerful ways. Yeah, so just thinking about the silence does not mean there's no language.

George Laufenberg 22:00

Yeah. Hmm. It's been like a decade since we've talked properly. I think maybe a little more if you were distilling, what's changed for you in that time? Not in a binding contract to the narrative way, just to like, you know, in this moment, like, you know, to

Lynn Casteel-Harper 22:17

mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

George Laufenberg 22:18

Right now. What would that sound like?

Lynn Casteel-Harper 22:20

Yeah. The word that comes to mind is clarity. Like, I think there's the past decade, you know, if we think 2015 was before himself was elected or, you know, and then the ensuing decade. I mentioned this in my email to you, George, is like going from a feeling of like anger alienation To absurdity.

George Laufenberg 22:44

Yeah. And

Lynn Casteel-Harper 22:44

like coming, I feel like coming to this place of absurdity and almost playfulness. Yeah. The sense of in the face of like, really not to discount at all the dire circumstance, but in some ways I, I felt like I've been over the decades, sort of, I don't know, delivered to this place. Of a lot of clarity and the clarity isn't a hope simplistic, but it feels simple, that all these things that have happened and continue to happen don't seem to respond well to logic and don't seem to respond well to traditional forms of fighting. Yeah. And so when I think about distress and kind of the traditional ways we think about it is you fight, you flight or you fawn, right? Right. Is that right? Are those the three? Fight

George Laufenberg 23:53

Does fawn mean like freeze in that context?

Lynn Casteel-Harper 23:56

Oh. Oh, okay. So maybe freeze and I'm, yeah, freeze then Fawn. I, I could be wrong. No, no, no. Yeah, you're right. So freeze fawn, fight flight Fawn is like, you know,

George Laufenberg 24:06

oh,

Lynn Casteel-Harper 24:06

let me, let me, we can add more bow down and kiss your, yeah. Kiss the ring, right? Like, yeah, right. Fine.

George Laufenberg 24:13

Gotcha.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 24:13

Gotcha. You're saying, um, that's protective, right? But you know, I've thought about these kind of different, these modalities and we've probably all shuffled through any number of them and response. And what I've been thinking a lot about is kind of another way, like what would be beyond that. And so I've been thinking a lot about focus, which I'm hoping I. Can be true, at least for me to the moment and to be very focused on what it is that I'm called to do, um, and perhaps uniquely equipped to do mm-hmm. In this moment. Not by myself, not in a vacuum, and yet still profoundly individual in many ways. And so I, I would say that's kind of where the absurdity has landed me is like a sense of focus and a simple kind of commitments to what's before me and. Also what has been open to me in recent years with, you know, my book has opened certain doors that allow me to, you know, write for certain outlets or speak certain places that I wouldn't have a decade ago, had that those opportunities. And so stepping it through the door of those opportunities and trying to be faithful and thoughtful in each one that I do. Trying to shepherd this little congregation in, in ways that feel authentic. And also just not super complex, like trying not to be too, yeah, just try not to be too complicated. And writing, you know, writing as I can when I can. From places that. I hope can be helpful, but mostly writing for myself and what feels helpful for me and trying to trust that that might speak to other people.

George Laufenberg 26:05

Mm-hmm.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 26:05

And so the second book I've been working on is the working title is Gentle, A Book About Power. And so I've been sort of obsessed with, focused on gentleness and kind of what does it mean to apply the rubric of gentleness to almost as many aspects of our personal and collective life as possible. And seeing that as a political, gesture as opposed to simply a private grasp for comfort.

George Laufenberg 26:38

Yeah. Yeah. That, that's, that makes so much sense in context of your, the way that you were talking about companionable silence in the individual and, and sort of community level. When you say focus, is it as a quality of attention?

Lynn Casteel-Harper 26:55

Yes. I think there's certainly that, that piece, although sometimes attention can feel so cognitive, like hyper cognitive. Sure. But I do think, yeah, attention in kind of a full bodied way. Um mm-hmm. Attending to noticing what's before you, within you and focus perhaps, I don't know, giving less fucks. Just about, you know, like, yeah. And not saying I'm there, but just a lot less like shoulds should, should I, how does this look? Should I, should I, oh, you know, and that's there, that's, that's like a ticker tape. I mean, you know, but being able to kind of be more discerning more quickly about what isn't mine to do.

George Laufenberg 27:46

Yeah.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 27:47

And what is, so yeah, I think there's a quality of attention there. George is a good term. Like attending to your life, attending to and. You know, things a decade ago I might've been like, well, maybe that's for me to do. And yeah, I don't know. It's like I more quickly can kind of access the no and yes. Yeah. On good, on good days. I guess I, on good days, right? So I still Yeah. Do a lot of the what if

George Laufenberg 28:20

I so appreciate you calling attention to the cognitive kind of flavor of the word attention in that use. 'cause that's, I actually would, would want to step away from that. 'cause I'm, I'm less interested in the cognitive, I mean, it matters, right? What I'm cognitive about like. Cognitively doing with my attention. But you know, there are a couple of ways that you described aspects of your experience just in the course of this conversation. Going back early to writing, when you were talking about writing first, the, you know, the chapters then that became on vanishing. You talked about feeling compelled, I think is the word that you used. And and I was curious about the kind of embodied experience of that in like juxtaposition with some of the other ways you've been talking about, you know, being present to yourself. Right. The, I mean, gentleness has been a big word in the last few minutes which feels in some ways like the logical extension of, you know, everything that had just come before it in your discussion. I am not sure exactly what the question here is.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 29:25

No, you wanna open, invite some deflection? No, thank you. So yeah, the first book, I guess just kind of this almost, I, I always say manifesto, like, it almost just felt like I, not that I knew exactly where I was going from A to B2C mm-hmm. But I knew, I knew what I was experiencing in the nursing home was not matching this grander narrative around people vanishing in their essential selves. Which was just everywhere, you know? Yeah. The way people were framed. I just knew, like, I just felt such a sense of justice around trying to get this right and trying to get it sort of right in a. Winsome, like readable, kind of an artistic way. Like I, yeah, because there were so many books out there that were kind of like handbooks on how to deal with people with dementia, and then there was like kind of, uh, dense academic tones that sort of hint God at morality and ethics around dementia and even theology. But like, no one's gonna, I was like, no one's gonna read these, you know? And none of them seem to wanna deal with like art or literature or like existential. So anyway, I sort of like felt this need to write this for myself 'cause I wasn't finding what I wanted. But I also was feeling like others, surely others are having these more existential questions around dementia. So it just felt very clear to me. And then this. Second book. So right after the first book came out, you know, the publisher has an option on a second book. And so not to get in the weeds here, Jordan, but like my agent was like, get a proposal together. We'll, you know, we'll float it out and get kind of the second one going. So I, I wanted, I knew I wanted to write about gentleness, wrote a proposal, floated it out to the publisher and they didn't want it. Which, you know, hurts the old ego, you know, 'cause it's like, oh, they don't if they don't want this. So floated it out to several more and no one picked it up. Okay. That we floated it to. So I was sort of thrown back on, well, what do you do with that? You know, like, is this not the moment for this? Is this not the right angle? Da, da, da. So fast forward to like life transition, move here to Bridgeport, have some time to like, let things just sort of sit and percolate. My life gets less stressful, like I become more back in touch with myself after moving to Connecticut and kinda life settles a bit. And I pick back up the proposal and I'm like, holy crap. This is the most un gentle proposal. Like, it just, it came with a certain energy to it that while the content, while I'm reading it and it. It's saying the, like the nice thing the words, but I, the way I was approaching it was so strident.

George Laufenberg 32:45

Mm-hmm.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 32:45

It was like I brought that first book Energy to like, and, but I wasn't feeling it like the it, I wasn't interesting it. And so I realized, oh, I'm trying to write a book about gentleness in the most un gentle way possible for myself. Like imposing this kind of like, oh, remember how you felt with that first book? Try to find that girl. 'cause you, you know, do it with this and it resisted that. Yeah. Um, and so I, and then becoming like this new friend who works with non-speaking autistic students and he's a writer too, and just kind of encountering his work and him and encountering some of my work and saying like. He says, you know, I just, I write what I want to. We kind, you know, it was like, oh yeah, that makes sense. As opposed to what you're supposed to, but so all that to say is I've kind of, I've scrapped the first proposal. I'm so clear. It's gentleness. I'm still clear on that. Yeah. But I'm now profoundly clear like that wasn't it.

George Laufenberg 33:52

Can, can I pull, there's a thread I really want, I'm dying to pull on here. Sure. Um, the, like, do you remember the sort of the space or the moment where you had that recognition? It seemed very visceral when you were describing it just then. Yeah. Of the like, oh, this, this dissonance between the thing and the. How

Lynn Casteel-Harper 34:08

Absolutely. It really was after this long conversation with this teacher and poet. Yeah. And reading some of his beautiful work and, and just having this conversation 'cause he was so interested about gentleness and we just had this back and forth. And and he also is, works for a publishing house that is a very gentle publishing house. Um, lovely. It's called Milkweed. I don't know if you've heard of them. I don't know. But anyway, he said, you know, I'd really be interested in reading your stuff on gentleness. Mm-hmm. And I thought, oh yeah, like this makes so much more sense. And it's not about just publishing, but Yeah. And you know, I kind of went in with like, oh, do you need to see a proposal? And he's like, no, there's no, there's no timeline. You know, kind of like, that's not really

George Laufenberg 35:01

what we do here.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 35:02

That's, that's not really what we do here, you know? And so it was just a, I think it was just a coalescing of things I'd been feeling for a while about the project and book. And it crystallized there. It wasn't just like, I was already kind of coming, pulling back from the original proposal and kind of trying to reset a little bit. But it was a crystallizing moment of like, you know, you really can, your agent isn't sitting there. Like, where's this proposal? Like, no one's, there's an, there's no invisible audience like, waiting for this. What do you wanna write? What do you find? And how do you wanna be gentle in the writing of this? So it's, it's been freeing in the past couple months to actually be like, yeah, it doesn't need to be the first book, like remade with a new, uh, subject. It's gonna be its own. And I imagine, you know, not having children, you have children like, it's like a, maybe a first child and a second child. You don't parent them the same way and they have different personalities or so, you know, and it's like, it would not be true to try to just have this prefab mold that this is how you parent or this is, but it's very

George Laufenberg 36:20

hard to not default to that.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 36:23

Well, and some of those skills that you hope are transferrable. Yeah. You, you're really from one to the next, but you really, really do.

George Laufenberg 36:28

Some are but no, it's such a, it's such a, a, I don't know, the parentings of an interesting lateral there. It like, it is such a question of presence. Everything comes down to the quality of presence. Mm-hmm. Like, it's so, it's so easy to go full, like default mode network. Like, okay, this is a figured out the, you know, I bled to figure out this thing with my first kid. I'm just, you know, treating you as like, like, oh my God. It's the, the more my 7-year-old becomes her own person. Like, you know, which didn't start yesterday, like she's been at it for a while. Yeah. It's just, you know, it just stops me short, takes my breath away sometimes, like, uh, like, oh my God, I caught a moment of like not seeing you as you are, I'm seeing like what I assumed and like, oh, cool. Okay. Thank you for pulling me outta that moment.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 37:16

Wow. Wow. So what does with parenting two things, um, companionable silence. How, what does, does silence have a role? Besides, you know, like growing up. Silence had a role, certainly, but it was usually like a punitive role. But yeah, I'm just, I'm curious about that. Yeah. And I'm curious about the questions you have around uncertainty and how that figures into parenting.

George Laufenberg 37:42

Yeah. You know, I think I had this fantasy of like, teaching my kids meditation and things are gonna be like, what I, yep. No. The, the Quakers have some of this figured out, right? Like bringing kids into meeting for worship early on for like little bit, little bits, right? Bit like police action. Um, but the, the, you know, I think silence mostly happens at bedtime and in at wake up as well. Like, but bedtime is what really comes to mind. 'cause both my, like, you know, my 11-year-old has been, Charlotte has been, you know, at kindergarten she wanted to be dropped off around the corner. I mean, like she is, you get, she don't seen with you No. Anywhere near public. Oh. Like, I don't even know you. And it's like, you know, it would, it, I certainly, I could still personalize that in some ways, but like, you know, it's not about me. It's about who she is and like,

Lynn Casteel-Harper 38:36

yeah.

George Laufenberg 38:37

It's you know, but she still lets me put her to bed at 11. She still wants to be, you know, and like, it's, I mean, it's a very Parker Palmer thing. Like, you know, it's like she, like each of her knuckles gets cracked and massaging her hands and massage her feet and like scratch the back. And it's, I mean, we talk about like, that's the time when we talk about big stuff when we more often than other times. But like, there's a whole stretch of it that's just silence. And I never feel more connected to her than in those moments. Wow. This is a kid who has some things have been really hard for her in some ways. Especially socially. So like the connection thing is a big, is big. It matters in a very big way.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 39:19

Yeah, I, yeah, uhhuh,

George Laufenberg 39:21

you know, it is parenting in my, in my n of two experience is is study and uncertainty like my God, the, like whatever I thought was in my, under my control in this life at some point, like, forget it. It's just the most, like absurd is precisely the word that comes to mind, right? It is an absurdist fantasy, right? I mean, even when they're like tiny and totally dependent, like, well, I very little, you know, they're. I used to, when Charlotte had a really rough first couple years and was up every night, didn't sleep more than two hours at a shot for the first couple years, and was up throwing up every night. 'cause she had some GI stuff going on. And I remember so many nights at three in the morning being like, there's almost nothing in this world that I can make better. Like, in an immediate sense, this is one of the, this is the thing, this is the thing right now. Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. Um, but man the more they, you know, are, I mean the more they are in the world and, you know, in themselves, out in the world. The more things are just so obviously like forget, you know, determining outcomes for them as they interact with the other mm-hmm. Like people and critters in the world. Like, I can't even, you know, I can't make them talk to me about it. I can't for, you know, that's just not how, it's just not how that works, you know? Yeah. Could just create the conditions of possibility and like, you know, that's, nothing feels more vulnerable to me mm-hmm. Than like, wow, I would give anything to be able to fix this for my kid. And the best I can do is sometimes make space for her to feel safe talking about it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, and that like, that really carries over in some direct ways to how I moved through the world in a way that's different from, you know, 10 or 15 years ago. Like, certainly, you know, my, my own tolerance for uncertainty. It's not like I don't get anxious about it, but it's, you know, there's just so much that very obviously can't be controlled. Mm-hmm. You know, like the, the accreted experience of like, well, you know, the side by side is like, I worried about this like crazy and I didn't have the bandwidth to worry about this, and the outcome was the same, or more to the point, the, my experience of myself was qualitatively different and in neither case did it have any bearing on what happened in the world. Right. Oh, what happened?

Lynn Casteel-Harper 41:50

Yeah. Um, yeah,

George Laufenberg 41:51

not to get like about it,

Lynn Casteel-Harper 41:53

right, but no.

George Laufenberg 41:54

Yeah. It's, it's time. It's only, you know, like, I, I don't, I'm a slow learner, especially when it comes to this stuff, right? Like there's no, nobody explaining that, right? Mm-hmm. It's about the experience of tolerating uncertainty and like observing myself in that experience. Yeah. You know, I think is when I think about what this might, you know, I've been, there are a lot of reasons I don't love the word coach. But like, what I, I deeply miss, you know, is, is like clo one-on-one work with people, or small groups too. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But, um, where it's about building containers and holding space and doing that sort of thing and you know, un uncertainty really feels like the way in

Lynn Casteel-Harper 42:38

mm-hmm.

George Laufenberg 42:39

Mm-hmm. To that, at least how I'm thinking about it right now. I mean, it was so like the real

Lynn Casteel-Harper 42:44

common ground.

George Laufenberg 42:45

Yeah. I mean, like, it's, it's a, my hope is that it's an accessible version of the, what I think of as sort of the through line, among the things that have. Held my attention over the years. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like, which is to say, you know, the dissertation was one way of thinking about what that whole thing was like, like living in an open-ended place of curiosity with people who were living in the question themselves now, like, what makes a meaningful life? Mm-hmm. And how far, how much am I willing to give up? Like ob like I, I, my experience is the circumstances that I have created. You know, I'm in a position of relative or unequivocal privilege structurally, right? And, you know, the circumstances I have created are, like, there are things I like about them, but they're also really not fulfilling in the way that I had hoped they would be or imagined. And what do I do with that,

Lynn Casteel-Harper 43:40

right? Mm-hmm. Like

George Laufenberg 43:40

how far are, like the dissertation context is, how far are these people willing to go and what are they willing to give up? What boundaries feel important to police? When, how, why are there patterns to that are, you know, potentially helpful to think about? Um, you know, and so like these conversations you know, I mean my, I think my hope is that I get to get to think with in this, you know, in this moment with you about how some of this stuff has played out in your own life. Mm-hmm.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 44:11

Mm-hmm.

George Laufenberg 44:12

You know? Yeah. Yeah. Right. Can I throw a few other kinds of questions?

Lynn Casteel-Harper 44:16

Sure. Yeah. So,

George Laufenberg 44:17

or I'm, I'm aware the, the time you for fielding my, I wanna be

Lynn Casteel-Harper 44:20

question is so helpful. No, I appreciate it. It's like such a, yeah, it makes me think of just how the questions you're asking are just the soil that so many people, you know, it's like that I guess common ground or soil that so many people, want to grow something from, but don't have a lot of guides or models for that. How to live purposefully or meaningfully or ways that feel, feel worthwhile or fulfilling beyond, you know, just kind of the stereotypical. Ways we brain success.

George Laufenberg 44:59

Yeah. I mean, I, I don't think it's a bold claim to say that, you know, if you were to look at the way most of us, the dominant culture in the us let's say like live our lives, if you were, if you were to look at it from altitude, you would think that the most overriding imperative that most of us experience is like the desperate avoidance of like silence and uncertainty and death, you know, the, the re death. Right? The ultimate, the ultimate silence and uncertainty, right? Yes. Right. Like, you know, the, the, uh, relentless pursuit of adequate distraction, you know?

Lynn Casteel-Harper 45:32

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

George Laufenberg 45:34

And that impulse, like trying to find a way to be gentle with that impulse.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 45:41

Yeah.

George Laufenberg 45:41

Like that feels really important to me.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 45:44

Mm-hmm.

George Laufenberg 45:45

You know? And I, I don't know exactly, I don't know exactly what that looks like yet. I feel fairly confident that it's whatever else is true. There's, like present the question of presence features prominently in any meaningful response to, or engagement with, not necessarily response to. Maybe that sets up a kind of binary, um, to question. Mm-hmm.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 46:10

Well, and I think like your presence, attention uncertainty sort of combines to this sense of like, like not driving to some kind of predetermined hoop that then sort of leaves a lot of humanity behind, you know, like when I've been thinking about gentleness and kind of like even the etymology of the word. I think gentleness is often sort of like this overlay that people like you're hugging, like do X but do it generally. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And it's kind of this like can become a function as just another, another thing you have to do. Yeah. Like drink water, eat fiber, be gentle, you know, it just can become again like the, like the counterproductive to what it, I think at its core, like gentil is of, or pertaining to like of the same family. And even that root word gin. Gin is birth or origin. So if we think about like, sort of gentleness as birthing or life giving genis is of the same family or clan, what does it mean to live in a way that there's a kind of a wider kinship with who is of my same family or clan? And so that's

George Laufenberg 47:35

so interesting. That's so interesting

Lynn Casteel-Harper 47:37

to me. It's a different, it, it rings differently than, yeah. Are you gentle? Be gentle, gentle parenting. Gentle. You know, and not that those things aren't helpful, but it just feels like another moral program. As opposed to like a kind of like bedrock that we tap into, um, as opposed to like judge ourselves constantly against.

George Laufenberg 48:02

Interesting. Like as long as it's a modifier of something else, it's not, we're missing something. Right? Like it's, it's, oh, yeah. It's not an end in itself if it's modifying something else. Is that kind of,

Lynn Casteel-Harper 48:14

I not

George Laufenberg 48:15

quite,

Lynn Casteel-Harper 48:16

you know. No, I think you're putting it and raise, I'll take notes later. Tribute to you, but it's like, I really wanna talk about gentleness as power. Mm-hmm. Um, and so if we think about power as enacting change, that gentleness is a form of changing ourselves and others in the world. But it takes a different way of looking at power. Yeah. And so I'm, I'm drawing a lot on Hana ARNs view of power, which power to her is essentially nonviolent and communal. And she says that things that posture as power, that are violent are actually force and they're not, they're not actual power. And it represents actually a loss of power. Violence is a loss of power manifest in trying to like clinging to something. Yeah. So I like her definition. I, I don't know exactly where I'm going with that other than to say if we can see gentleness as that sort of form of power, it, to me it feels more like invigorating. Like I don't have to then apply gentleness. Oh, gentle power or gen, you know? Yeah. It's like no, power is essentially gentle. And so e every avenue that I have power, if it draws from this wellspring of. Gentle. Mm-hmm. What might happen, personally, but communally and politically, and

George Laufenberg 49:54

I am thinking about how like it has sometimes seemed like a kind of tragic conflation that's specific to the English language, right. That we staple these two very different notions of power, both as force and capacity to the same word, which is like, even in other European languages, it's the same thing. Like French, like UA ants are different, right. It's like, that's like, it's a key conceptual distinction. Mm-hmm. They don't mean the same things. Mm-hmm. It's absurd to conflate them. You know, but it certainly isn't like exclusively an anglophone problem. Right. This miss attending to, I. To the kind of power that you're talking about.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 50:33

Yeah, absolutely. Like the hitching of power to violence is almost automatic. Even if it's not like war per se, but it's this sense of like, power is force applied to change or, enact something. And whether that's a changing people's viewpoints or rein instantiating a certain philosophy of,

George Laufenberg 51:00

yeah, it, it almost seems like this substrate to what you're talking about is a kind of orientation towards relational life, by which I mean the coercive kind of power. Presupposes an oppositional relationship.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 51:16

Mm-hmm.

George Laufenberg 51:17

Right? That's not necessarily zero sum, but often zero sum. And this is obviously, I'm thinking out loud, it's pretty simplistic, but but the kind of, not gentle power, but gentleness as power, like that doesn't, nothing about that feels opposition, oppositional, it feels like a different kind of, it pre it. I don't know if it presupposes the absence of a specific kind of boundary work or if it presupposes a, the presence of a different kind of boundary work. I don't know. Does that,

Lynn Casteel-Harper 51:46

yeah.

George Laufenberg 51:46

Is there anything there? Does that make sense?

Lynn Casteel-Harper 51:49

When you say boundary work, you mean around like what is and isn't power or, or,

George Laufenberg 51:54

I'm actually in that moment I meant like where I end and where you begin.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 51:57

Oh yeah. Yeah. Like if, if we're using it of the same family or clan or, uh, yeah. Using it like iu,

George Laufenberg 52:04

we, they, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 52:07

Yeah, I mean, a part of me resists like a complete erasure of, people's distinctive presence in the world. Yeah, I don't know if that's, I don't think that's what you were insinuating, but it's, oh gosh. Um, or like that we all meet on this common ground and there's, we don't have to talk about power or relationships or we don't have to, you know, we can sort of a kumbaya moment. We're all of the same family or clan, and that means somehow magically we're, without conflict, so I'm not, I don't think gentleness is conflict free and I don't think it's myopic in, in the sense, or it doesn't have to be Sure. Um. But you know, as I think about, and even hearing you talk about parenting, or especially hearing you talk about parenting and when I've thought about my own history and listening to other people and being in spaces that have been profoundly impactful and gentle at the same time, and that's often happened with people living with dementia in these spaces that don't emphasize their diagnosis, that emphasize that we are dancing together today. Yeah, we are making a Thanksgiving meal together today. Those have been some of the most impactful experiences to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we don't frame them as power usually. Right. And yet they're changing us. Mm-hmm. And when I hear about, you talk about parenting, you're being changed through this like dynamic relationship with your daughters. Yeah. Yes. And, and, and it's, it's through the back rub and the struggle. Like, okay, you're dropping you off at the corner, like it's painful. It's not just like Yeah. A big gigantic hug, but it's through this like very on the ground experience of a shared humanity. Yeah. Um, and every time I think about like, where have I really changed in life? It's been through, you know, we often use the narrative like, oh, through struggle. I changed. Well, it wasn't really the struggle or the difficulty that changed me. It was somebody or some group that held it gently. Yeah. Or that helped me in that moment, like, wrap me with gentleness.

George Laufenberg 54:28

Yeah.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 54:29

Whether in that moment or later for healing. It, it's like that to me is where change has happened in my life. And I think in so many other peoples that I've heard, it's the soft space. It's the soft person, it's the grandparent who was there. It was, again, not to be sentimental, but it, it's, and it doesn't mean, again, there's not total mess with it. So I guess, yeah, there's this part of me that like wants to say, you think power is here. Go. Go here instead, like, you think you'll find your worth here. Mm-hmm. Go down

George Laufenberg 55:12

go down. Yeah. Go, go down. You wanna go down and end and in.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 55:15

Yes. Down and end right. Rep Repelling Palmer, Parker Palmer Through the ravine. Yeah,

George Laufenberg 55:20

that's right. Yeah. No, I, I I There's so much there that, yeah. And the last thing I wanna do is suggest like, you know, difference doesn't matter on like 97 different levels, right? Didn't mean to collapse that. Have you ever seen, this is gonna sound nuts. A movie called Lars and The Real Girl.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 55:36

I've heard, oh my gosh, I've heard of it and I need to see it. It's the blow up doll. The, the guy with the, it's a, it's a

George Laufenberg 55:41

Sex do. It's Ryan.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 55:43

Yes.

George Laufenberg 55:43

Uh, Ryan Gosling. Yes. Oh my gosh. Who gets a girl who gets a girl finally gets a girlfriend who's a sex do, which sounds like the setup for, you know, some kind of bad Jack Black slapstick comedy. Yeah. And I gotta tell you, Lynn, it is one of the most profound meditations on gentleness.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 55:59

Oh,

George Laufenberg 55:59

because what The community, it's like the community decides to love him whole. Like, it's like, what, what if we didn't, what if pathologizing wasn't the first impulse, or wasn't the impulse that we yielded to immediately? Right. Because it's not like mm-hmm. You know, but like, it's like this, it's goofy and silly movie, but it's, but it's like quietly radical in that way. I don't know. I, I remember being really moved by that part of it.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 56:26

Oh, that's. Thanks, George. I I really appreciate that and I will, I will watch it. 'cause I've heard, I've heard other people mention it, how great it is, and, but not in the context of gentleness, so,

George Laufenberg 56:38

well, that's the thing that really, I mean, I, I haven't rewatched it, it wasn't like the most entertaining thing I've ever seen in my life, but but yeah, it just, the way that the community surrounds him, I mean, like, there is, I would never have used the phrase before this conversation in this sense, but like, I think companionable silence is a beautiful way to describe the surround, right? Like, this is a thing, not that everybody's side, you know, mute during the film, but like, you know, like this is a thing that we are not gonna talk about. Right. Like naming, like, we're not gonna emphasize this. Naming it doesn't help. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Naming it doesn't really help. It's like, it's here. It is what it is. We have a and like, and we're still here. We're all still here. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. It just goes so against the, I think what I was trying to gesture George with power, like sometimes how I used to talk about, I'm thinking back to my Utah days working in the wilderness as a, the, the therapeutic program I worked in a million years ago. You know, I used to talk to the, you think about like conflict, right? And it's like, it's the back country. It's like teachable moments abound. And you know, obviously conflict happens. And you know, we think about how like, you know, so much of us grew up with this model for dealing with conflict that's like, I have this hard thing to say. It's like a hand grenade. I'm gonna like pull the pin, lobb it seat cover, like you good? Okay. We had a hard talk. Rock and roll. Let's do the other thing now. As opposed to like, all right, here's this thing that's about to blow up and it's gonna hurt both of us and I'm not going anywhere. And like, man.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 58:02

Yeah,

George Laufenberg 58:03

I,

Lynn Casteel-Harper 58:04

yeah. That's good. And it's not just an event.

George Laufenberg 58:08

Yeah, it's not an event. It's

Lynn Casteel-Harper 58:09

a, it's a relationship.

George Laufenberg 58:11

It's inextricably embedded. I mean, like nothing matters in my life the way my kids matter to me, and I, it just overrides not in a, like when I think about like Charlotte's early childhood, you know, I, there were a shocking in hindsight number of moments where I made decisions to prioritize my comfort over what was best for her in a way that like is, I mean, shocking is the word I used because I couldn't believe how easy it was to do that. I think I had this fantasy that like, you know, the magic and love of my child will just take over and, you know, reframe everything. And like, that was not my experience.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 58:51

Mm-hmm. Right?

George Laufenberg 58:52

Mm-hmm. It's like, it's a, it's a retrospective like, oh my God, I, the person I want to be, not even as like cognitive as the person I want to be. Wouldn't do that. It's, I love this person. With everything and I hurt them because I'm their parent and like mm-hmm. We hurt our kids. It just, it's just there's, I don't think there's a way to parent that doesn't involve that it's in some way, shape, or form. Right. And like there's no event ness to it. It's 100% a relationship, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And it's about the, you know, there's, there's, I mean, it's gentle parenting stuff, but like, you know, the emphasis on repair, right? Like, you know, more important, right? Mm-hmm. Mostly, I think because of the modeling work that it does with respect to how to be in relationship. How to orient towards hard things that are in a way that is relational rather than event based. Mm-hmm. Like, I'm, I'm not, I'm not, I think I really like that distinction, like relational and event here. I hadn't thought about it in those terms exactly. But there's something really, it feels generative about that, um,

Lynn Casteel-Harper 59:56

that makes so much sense to like, in so many ways. Right. What you're saying with parenting, it's like, it's, sure there can be events that are high and events that are low, but isn't it really kind of like the abiding trust with the people who say they love you in their life? That matters in the like, long arc. And again, it doesn't mean that people won't go off and things happen. Yeah. You know, it doesn't all fall back to the parent, but there's something about. The, it seems to take the pressure off of like, did you stick every landing with your child or with, you know, no. Or

George Laufenberg 1:00:39

with

Lynn Casteel-Harper 1:00:39

no danger. No. You know, or with your congregation, with your partner, whatever. Like, no, like you didn't, like, you fell off the balance beam or whatever the analogy. But was, is there an undercurrent of like, we will abide in some way through uncertainty?

George Laufenberg 1:01:02

Abiding is a beautiful word that strikes me as an incredibly beautiful word in this context, right? Because it's not tolerance, right? It's not toleration.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 1:01:12

Yeah. The thing, things that shouldn't be tolerated.

George Laufenberg 1:01:16

Yeah.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 1:01:16

You know, you've experienced like, shouldn't be tolerated. Like

George Laufenberg 1:01:20

Yeah. It's not endurance either. Right. And it's nothing quite so flat as persevering. That's a really rich word. Abide.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 1:01:29

Yeah.

George Laufenberg 1:01:30

I don't know the etymology, I'm thinking I'm, I'm assuming there's some connection to abode.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 1:01:34

Oh yeah. Like housing, making a home, housing abide, being at

George Laufenberg 1:01:37

home in, I don't know. But that's good. I'd like it if there were, that'd be convenient, but it's certain Interesting. Um, like five, you have five more minutes.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 1:01:45

Sure. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

George Laufenberg 1:01:47

Alright. What are you loyal to that you didn't choose?

Lynn Casteel-Harper 1:01:51

Oh, wow. That's a good question. And where I, I, um, I, so, because I believe in things like calling. Mm-hmm. It's a tricky, it's a little tricky question. Because in some ways I'm loyal to my call as a minister. Even as I feel like I didn't choose.

George Laufenberg 1:02:10

Mm-hmm.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 1:02:11

It, and on another sense, I believe I did choose it, because I don't think we're automatons that, I don't, that's not my view of calling that you, you're strong armed and you know, you say uncle and you just have to submit to some, some something. Yeah. And yet at the same time it's always felt hard of me and beyond me, in a way that's, that's hard to describe. So I would say that I am loyal to this calling of ministry that I didn't entirely choose. And I would say I am loyal to a biological family that I didn't choose. And, and gladly. So, you know, I, I feel very grateful to have a loving family. But they wouldn't have chosen them, based on some kind of profile or, necessarily, Loyal to that I haven't chosen. Yeah, that's, those are the two things that come immediately to mind. Good, good. Questions about what it means to choose, though.

George Laufenberg 1:03:20

One more question.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 1:03:21

Intentional. Intentional. I know

George Laufenberg 1:03:23

what, one more question. Sure. Okay. What, what is the relationship between generative uncertainty and just feeling lost difference between relationship between for you?

Lynn Casteel-Harper 1:03:34

Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, when we're talking about uncertainty, something that comes to mind too is I don't, I would never think like embracing uncertainty. We'd wanna dip into. How did you put it? The difference between generative uncertainty and,

George Laufenberg 1:03:50

and I, well, I mean, fill in the other term. I said feeling lost. Yeah, but lost. That doesn't have to be the right opposition, right?

Lynn Casteel-Harper 1:03:57

No. 'cause that, it makes sense because like a certain, like I wanna clinging to, as you say, generative uncertainty without collapsing into a sense of like nothing matters or Yeah. A kind of like nihilism. Sure. Um, or like that you have no authority in yourself or solidity. So it's like, I want a sense, I want to maintain a sense of solidity that my. Values and things, and people I hold dear are not up for grabs. Sure. Just because I embrace a certain, like, er, uncertainty in life, but somehow I protect maybe a, a sanctum of like, I'm not uncertain about love, I'm not uncertain about, inherent worth of individuals. So I guess constantly keeping a kind of tension between those things that are not negotiable for how one needs to kind of move through the world with some sense of back to clarity or focus.

George Laufenberg 1:05:12

Mm-hmm.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 1:05:12

But not become sort of calcified in the application of those values. So, yeah. I think of those like, was it biosphere? Biosphere two, where they planted these trees and the, remember the biosphere project,

George Laufenberg 1:05:30

the New Mexico, it was like back in the eighties or nineties. Yeah. I was like

Lynn Casteel-Harper 1:05:33

they tried to create this like sort of perfect conditions where things would grow and this like biosphere and they planted trees and they were like, why are the trees sort of like wilting or whatever? It's because there was no wind and it's like the trees needed wind Sure. To actually grow upright. So it needed sort of like a little bit of resistance.

George Laufenberg 1:05:55

Yeah.

Lynn Casteel-Harper 1:05:56

So kind of, maybe it's like the bend, but not break. So for me, generative uncertainty allows for a kind of bending without breaking and without being so bendy that you have no identity, like, so. Yeah. Yeah. It's a good one, George.

George Laufenberg 1:06:17

Then I, so, so I appreciate your time, but I just really just, it's so good to reconnect. It's good to hear your voice and think with you and feel into this stuff together. And

Lynn Casteel-Harper 1:06:28

yeah,

George Laufenberg 1:06:29

I so appreciate, thanks for inviting

Lynn Casteel-Harper 1:06:30

me to do this. It's really, oh man. Thanks for being a joy for me and very humbling to be able to be a part of your thinking and feeling and, um. Yeah, this is really delightful. So thank you. Thank you George,

George Laufenberg 1:06:45

Lynn Castile Harper's book is on vanishing and it's available wherever you buy books. You can find out more about my work@theprincipleuncertainty.com. Thanks for listening.