Father Knows Best—Episode 28: What We Know About Mary's Parents; GK Chesterton's Conversion to the Catholic Faith; and a Question About the Hymn "I Know That My Redeemer Lives"

Wednesday, July 22, 9:00 pm on Siouxland Catholic Radio 88.1 FM 

Episode #28 of Father Knows Best sponsored by St. Augustine Indian Mission in Winnebago, NE features Father Mark Stoll addressing questions about what we know about Mary's parents, GK Chesterton's conversion to the Catholic faith, and a question about the hymn 'I Know That My Redeemer Lives'. 

Tune in so we may discover, learn, and engage our hearts, souls and minds so we may be illuminated, informed and inspired. Please send your questions to fatherknowsbestshow@yahoo.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I have questions. I don't understand. I'm confused. What's going on? This is not what I learned in school. What does the church really teach? Welcome to Father Nose Bush. The studios of 88.1 FM, KFA C Pankasu City, and K-O-I-A Storm Lake. Brought to you by the St. Augustine Indian Mission, Winnebago. We all have questions and the curiosity about manners of faith as it is normal for humanity to ask questions and seek answers in the timeless quest for understanding regarding manners of faith in the church. We believe that there is no such thing as a foolish or dumb question. And I say the only dumb question is the one that is not asked. And the reality is that the questions you have are like questions others have, and so it is good to ask. Sometimes an answer leads to more questions. Sometimes the questions and answers will lead us to insights we never considered. We at Sioux Lan Catholic Radio want to invite our listeners from Jackson, Nebraska to Elk Point, South Dakota, to Stromlink, Iowa, and everywhere in between and beyond, send your questions to us at Father Knows Best Show at Yahoo.com. Or mail them to Father Knows Best, Sioux Line Catholic Radio, 701 West Fifth Street, Sioux City, Iowa, 51103. During this time, once a week, I or another guest will do our best to answer some of the questions I've received here at the studio so we may discover, learn, and engage our hearts and souls and minds, so we may be illuminated, informed, and inspired. So I thank you for tuning in. We invite you to open your mind, let the questions begin, and let your curiosity find its voice. Hello, I'm Father Mark Stoll, Priest of the Diocese City with you today. And joining me today again is Tim Sudin, Executive Director of Sioux Line Catholic Radio, presenting some of the questions I received from you, our listeners. And so, Tim, are you ready again for another round of questions?

SPEAKER_00 1:48

I am so ready for this. Every Wednesday night, I look forward to this, and I hope our listeners do too. If you're re if you're a consistent listener, I'm sure you've learned a lot from what Father tells us every week.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

Very good. I'm glad you're all here. And I'm also, of course, glad that Ann is here on the board to help us to sound good. And so let's dive into uh questions our listeners have sent to me. And I think our first question comes from our very listen, very close listener is really right here in the studio.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

It is very true. You know, we've always heard a lot about Jesus and how he started converting at age 30, but we don't hear much about what happened before then. So the Virgin Mary's parents were Joachim and Anne, and I know the Bible does not say much about them. What do we know about them from other sources?

SPEAKER_01 2:35

And yes, as I just in case this Tim question comes from you. This question does come from me. So again, some people here in the studio, we have questions too, so we can address anybody, whether you're here or wherever. So, yes, Tim, you are correct. There is no mention of the parents of Virgin Mary in the Bible or in the Gospels. And of course, the Gospel is all focused on the life and ministry, death, and resurrection of Jesus. Correct. What we do know about Mary's parents comes from Catholic legend and also from what's known as the Gospel of James. It's again it's another one of those apocryphal, unsanctioned writings for the second century. That it's a book that was not written by uh the Apostle James, despite its claimed to be authored by James. Again, these writings come from after the last writings of the New Testament that we have now accepted. So in the early church, of course, the church followers express skepticism about the Gospel of James and the writings. But this, in this, in this writing, this is the earliest surviving assertion of the perpetual virginity of Mary from before the birth of Jesus, during the life of Jesus, and after her uh assumption, up to her assumption. So this writing, the Gospel of James, was condemned by Pope Innocent I in the year 405. It was classified as apocryphal around the year 500. Yet it has come to be a widely influential source of Mariology. That is what we believe about Mary. Right. And so there are about 150 copies of this ancient manuscript that often have even different titles. So it's kind of a strange writing. But yet this manuscript tells the same story about Mary. That Mary was promised to Joachim and Anne by an angel, was consecrated to God, and remained a virgin all her life. There is, of course, plenty of room for some scholarly debate about the names and who Mary's parents were, since we have really no true primary sources to back up with some of what the Gospel of James reports. But yet at least we can presume that their names are correct, Joachim and Anne. So there's other apocryphal literature such as the Gospel of the Nativity of Mary and the Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew, which also contain some uncertain information about these holy parents and of course their grandparents. And so, according, let's just kind of find this kind of summarize what we find in these writings and various traditions of the church. According to tradition, Joachim was a very wealthy and generous man. He and his wife Anne were childless until they advanced the age. One day, before Anne conceived the Blessed Virgin Mary, Joachim arrived at the temple to make an offering, which was rejected by a priest because Joachim was childless, and to be childless at that age was understood to be a disfavor from God. So Joachim leaves the temple, studies the scriptures, to see if there's anyone else in the scripture like he and Anna who are childless. Well, guess what? He comes across the story of Abraham and Sarah. Again, given they were given a child at their old age. And so Joachim, inspired by that story of Abraham and Sarah, embark on a 40-day, he embarks on a 40-day period of fasting and praying in the desert, asking God for a child. At the same time, Anne goes into a time of prayer asking God for a child. And as Anne prayed, an angel appears to her and says, Anne, Anne, the Lord has heard your prayer, and you shall conceive, and you shall bring forth, and your seed shall be spoken of in all the world. An angel also appears to Joachim and says, Joachim, Joachim, the Lord God has heard your prayer. Go down hence, for behold, your wife Anne will conceive. Nine months later, Anne gives birth to a daughter, and they name the daughter Mary. Tradition goes on that because of a vow that they have made, when Mary is only three, then Joachim and Anne then takes Mary to the temple where she takes up residence until the time when she is married. And again, she was then educated by the priests there in the temple, uh, and by the and some of the holy women there, of course. And she spends her days there at the temple in prayer and union with God. So, although the story of the Blessed Virgin Mary's birth and presentation of the temple comes from apocryphal sources, the pre the the celebration of the feast of the presentation of the Lord in the temple is a liturgical feast, which was first celebrated in the Eastern Church as early as the 6th century, and then in the Western Church, which we are part of in the 11th century. And thus, this celebration of the presentation of Mary in the temple gives credence to a lived faith that was part of the church's history from very early on. And again, there's liturgical acceptance that Mary was indeed presented in the temple by her parents. Again, something that's very unusual to do. There's also, we've, if you go to the old city of Jerusalem, there is an ancient church that still stands next to the Temple Mound, which is believed to be where the Blessed Virgin Mary was born and where she might have lived during her early years after being presented in the temple. Now, again, there's not much more known about Saints Joachim and Anne. There is, of course, a devotion to them, especially to Saint Anne. This devotion began to grow in the early 6th century, and we have had churches built, especially in Anne's honor. We've had prayers offered to her for intercession. There are devotions that have been formulated, there's patronages attributed to Anne. And again, it wasn't until really the 16th century that devotion to Saint Joachim began to grow when his feast was placed on the general Roman calendar. And so, regardless of the authenticity of the legends about Saint Joachim and Anne, we do know for certain that the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Immaculate Conception, had parents. We can conclude that Mary had good and faithful parents who raised her with a love and devotion to God like none other except Jesus Christ Himself. We do know that she had parents who loved her and offered her to God. And of course, we know that when we continue to seek the intercession of Saints Joachim and Anne, we're especially calling upon their intercession, you know, for grandparents. In fact, on a spiritual level, you know, just as the Blessed Virgin Mary can be seen as our spiritual mother, we could also say that Saints Joachim and Anne can be seen as our spiritual grandparents. And again, what a wonderful gift that Mary would give to us, you know, her parents to us. So we can also view then uh Saints Joachim and Anne as role models or parents. Again, they thus are honored and can be emulated for the devotion to God and to Mary, who's the mother of God. We can also, you know, we can also pray this holy couple, pondering again, even you know, reflecting upon what it'd been like to give birth to Mary, the mother of the son of God, and even to imagine what it would have been like to watch their daughter, who was again full of grace, magically conceived, to grow and mature into adulthood. And again, it'd be wonderful, again, it's wonderful to imagine again, for these holy parents, you know, what we need to understand or try to understand all the mysteries surrounding their daughter. Uh, you know, they might have known by special grace, special intuition that the daughter was chosen by God for his very special purpose. But in short, we can look today that, you know, Saint Anne is the patron saint of grandparents, grandmothers, mothers, roommakers, cavlet makers, carpenters, dressmakers, equestrians, expectant mothers, homemakers, housewives, lace workers, seamstresses, miners, old clothes dealers, Canada and France. Again, who is also invoked against sterility and poverty, and also even to find last articles. Saint Joachim is the patron saint of grandparents, grandfathers, fathers, married couples, cabinet makers, and linen traders. And their memorial is celebrated on July 26th.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

You have taught me so much with this. I did not realize that they were the patron saints of so many things.

SPEAKER_01 10:55

I didn't realize that either. I mean, I knew they were patron saints of grandparents, because we talk about that all the time around July 26th. Right. But then when I was doing my research, I was like, wow. Because a lot of saints, they're patron saints of various things, and it makes sense some of the things that uh St. Anna Joachim are are or um patron saints of.

SPEAKER_00 11:13

This is why the listeners need to show up every week, because you find out things that you weren't expecting to find out.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

Right. So again, based on tradition, again, this is again, that's the wonderful thing about the Catholic Church, we have this great tradition. Yep. That you may not find a lot of stuff in writings, but we have had this long ongoing uh tradition because again, even though it's not in the gospels, we have the apostles and and how the followers are talking a little bit about this. Right. It wouldn't be part of their story, even though it didn't make into the gospels.

SPEAKER_00 11:43

Follow-up question, just a small one.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

The writings of James wasn't a gospel, but was just the writings of James are just part of the Yeah, so it is, it's it's called a Gospel of James.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

Okay. And so again, I don't know all the details on that gospel, but again, it's one of those um unsanctioned gospels that are not part of our own gospels, but it's one of those early writings that took place you know, uh basically a century after Jesus lived. And so it's some secondhand stories, is what we find in there as opposed to firsthand, which we find in the gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke. Very good. Very good. Let's try a second question.

SPEAKER_00 12:18

The second question, oh my Lord, it comes back to me again. This is the Tim Show. This is my night. I've heard so many priests talk about the name G.K. Chesterton. What does G.K. Chesterton and his conversion mean to the Catholic faith?

SPEAKER_01 12:34

This is a very interesting question. Again, just for uh people who don't know much about him, just a little background. Uh G.K. Chesterton is Gilbert Keith Chesterton, born in London on May 29th, 1874. He was the son of an estate agent. He was baptized in Anglican, which is the Church of England, baptized on July 1st, 1874, even though his family didn't practice much. In prep school, he began to write poetry and then later engaged in debates. Then, as a young man, he became fascinated with the occult, experimented with Ouija boards, explored art and literature. He left college in 1895 to work for a publisher, published his first poetry collection in 1900. Then he married a woman named Frances Blogg in 1901, and she would be one that would lead him back into Christianity. He published his first novel in 1904, along with other writings, including biographies, detective stories, and commentaries, and eventually even wrote a story about St. Francis. So then, on July 30, 1922, at a railroad hotel in England, he is received into the Catholic Church after being baptized again as a child of the Church of England and essentially being raised as a Unitarian. So again, some interesting background. And so when he joined the Catholic Church in 1922, it came as a shock to many. Casual observers would have been surprised because they thought he was already Catholic, because of the things he's already writing, talking about, because he actually been defending the church for many years.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:07

But then many who knew him better, along with some of his allies and opponents, simply thought, this is never going to happen. He's not going to join the church. But again, he did, and partly because his wife, you know, was uh uh an Anglican, brought him back to Christianity. But then in 1926, his wife actually also was received into the Catholic Church, even though she was at that time, up until that time, a very high Anglican. So again, this was big news when G. K. Chesterton uh joined the Catholic faith. So why is this so important to the Catholic faith? And so when we look at the life of G. Chesterton, his conversion in 1922 was a pivotal moment both in his personal faith and in the what he called the Catholic revival of the 20th century. Again, even though he was baptized in the Church of England, raised as a Unitarian, he had already spent decades defending the Catholic Church in works like Orthodoxy, in 1908, he wrote that book. And the same year he wrote the book, A Man Who Was Thursday. He once stated that his early writings were his own uncomplete conversion while he was ushering in others without even having entered the church himself. And so in 1926, in the book The Catholic Church and Conversion, he described his conversion in three stages. The first stage was patronizing the church, which is basically I'm going to approach the church with fairness, yet without believing it is true. Second stage is discovering the church. He became fascinated by its teachings and life of the church and found the church kind of larger on the inside than on the outside. And stage three was running away from the church. It's basically what he describes as a moment that one can no longer be impartial, feeling pulled toward it and eventually fearing that it is right. And so what he's describing is this move from an extra intellectual admiration to a personal commitment. So his delay in conversion, as is noted by some scholars and research I was doing, says that, you know, partially again because of his wife's Anglican background, but his eventual decision was being driven by a deeper humility, a gratitude for creation, and a sensitivity to evil and a need for forgiveness. In 1936, he wrote his autobiography and he simply states he joined the church to quote get rid of my sins. So his conversion was just not simply a personal act, but became a cultural milestone because it became a bridge between liberal thought and Catholicism as he brought in wider readership into Catholicism. He even influenced figures like Graham Greene, C.S. Lewis, and J.R.R. Tolkien. But I think what's important is looking at his model conversion, his three-stage model basically remains kind of a universal and a very useful framework to understand how people come to faith. Again, we look at his conversion as a milestone because of his defense of Catholicism was very distinct. Again, he was rejecting this fast creeping theological liberalism of Anglicism. He was seeing that Catholicism was the only church that actually could move the world. Also, we look at him as seeing basically a symbol of perseverance. He persevered. He entered the church at age 48. Again, this was after many years of public defense with the church. Again, showing that his conversion was an act of the will, not an act of the mind.

unknown 17:45

G.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

Concession died of a congestion heart failure on June 14, 1936. This is just 16 days after his 62nd birthday in his home in England. But again, what we see is his conversion, the legacy of his life, his conversion, get exemplify the Catholic Church's ability to draw in those who have been shaped by its truths, even if they've been delayed in entering. And so when we look at his works, you know, his work continues to inspire converts and Catholics alike. It's offering, again, a personal testimony, even a theological reflection on the nature of faith and conversion. Again, you know, when we look at even his books, such as his 1926 book, The Catholic Church of Conversion, which you can still buy, it's still be purchased on uh you know on online, for example. And I came across the webpage that has this book, and it says here on the selling point of this book, it says, quote, G.K. Chesterton has been described both by his admirer, admirers, and even by his opponents as the apostle of common sense and one of the happiest, kindest, most brilliant, and witty defenders of Christianity that ever lived. In this book, uh Chesterton's brilliance as a writer and thinker often shines as he explains his understanding of the Catholicism and the Catholic Church and how her appeal to reason and truth eventually won him over. For Chesterton, a man misses the point of it all unless he acts on two essentials at the heart of conversion. And he describes these in his own words. One is that he believes that it to be a solid object uh solid objective, truth, which is true, that he likes whether he likes it or not, and second, that he wants to seek liberation from his sins. Again, when we look at uh the conversion of Saint of G.K. Chesterton, there's two reasons why we see him converted. Because, again, when he scribes, he finds you know uh a unique uh truth in the Catholic Church, and again, he wants to be freed of his sins. So, since his death, too, of course, there's a developed the society of G.K. Chesterton, which again strives to renew this uh the world through this Christian joy and common sense by evangelizing through education, by inspiring people to live joyful and holy lives. You know, again, seeing G.K. Chesterton as a model of lay spirituality to a guide to a deeper faith and intellectual clarity and to greater joy. And his conversion also uh continues to inspire people, including when we look at EWTN. EWTN has produced a number of shows uh related to G.K. Chesterton. Uh shows included G.K. Chesterton, the Apostle of Common Sense, Chesterton Station, and there are two episodes, episode 19 and 20 of Saints vs. Scoundrels, in which G.K. Chesterton is challenging Thomas Hobbes, who is the father of modern materialism, to a friendly game of billiards to reveal the respective views on philosophy and human nature. So as if and so what happens is G.K. Chesterton, not to be a spoiler alert, G.K. Chesterton basically shows the fatal flaws in Hobbes' philosophy. And these shows, G.K. Chesterton, the Apostle Common Sense, Chesterton Station, and Saints and Scoundrels can be found on edob10.com. Just scroll and look for their shows. But in short, Jesus Chesterton's conversion matters to the Catholic faith, you know, not became because he basically was a famous convert, but because of the way he found Catholicism. He found it, you know, by looking at the central claims of Catholic faith. He found the exact the objective truths that exist, and that those objective truths protect morality. He found that faith was not irrational. In fact, it really faith engages reason. And of course, this was proved by St. Thomas Aquinas. He also we see that he saw the church is a living teacher and continuously is teaching us. And also, he found Found in the sacraments, especially in the sacrament of confession, those the our sacraments really change a person. In fact, what he would say is they're a real transformation in the sacraments. So again, I think that's kind of hopefully summarizes the impact that CJ Concession's conversion has had, continues to have on our church still today.

SPEAKER_00 22:19

I think that is incredibly interesting. I had always heard lots of stories about him, but the fact that he converted centrally due to forgiveness is a wonderful story.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

Right. And you just look back again, uh, getting with the Ouija boards and the occult. He was he was a kind of you know went off way offline, but you know, found that Christ, you know, can bring him back. So if you're just tuning in, you are listening to Father Knows Best here on Sioux Line Catholic Radio as I answer your questions about faith in the Catholic Church. I'm Father Mark Stone, joined by Tim Soudin, who is presenting the course some of the questions I received from you, our listeners. And so let's dive into a third question.

SPEAKER_00 22:57

Joanne from Sioux City sent you this question. I know you have discussed music at Mass before, but I was surprised to see the song, I Know That My Redeemer Lives, as one of the song choices recently at a Catholic church. I know that it's a popular Protestant hymn. I went over the lyrics and couldn't find anything that seemed to be anti-Catholic. I don't remember that being in the hymn book until maybe the last couple years. What are your thoughts on this, Father?

SPEAKER_01 23:26

Thank you for that question. Uh first, just a little background on the hymn I Know My Redeemer Lives. And uh this again is a very endearing hymn of Christian assurance. Again, as a melody that was first written, words written first by uh Samuel Medley in 1775. So this song basically is 251 years old. He was a former sailor who became a preacher after his conversion to Christianity, and he wrote many hymns that express strong evangelical convictions, and including, of course, I know that my Redeemer Lives, which again stands out for its clarity and exuberance, and its personal, you know, uh it ties into personal uh uh faith along and being very triumphant. And so again, it's it's this hymn moves along what's called doctrinal affirmation to heartfelt praise. And uh boy, I wish we could play that tune here. I don't know if we have the rights to do it or not, but but again, it quickly became a favorite uh congregational singing, uh for uh favorite song for congregations to sing, especially in English-speaking churches. Um the hymn, of course, is based on the book of Job, chapter 19, verse 25. In that verse, it's Job who is now suffering from many, many losses, uh, many trials. He says, For I know that my Redeemer lives, and that he shall stand on the latter day upon the earth. Now, this verse again was spoken in the midst of his suffering, and but yet expresses an unshakable confidence in God's redemptive power. And so this hymn captures the same spirit of unwavering faith of Job, of us, again, turning this biblical proclamation into a song of joyful testimony. So the hymn opens up with a confident statement of faith, affirming that the living Redeemer, Jesus Christ, of course, you know, I know that my Redeemer lives, and then it unfolds a series of stanzas that celebrates Christ's ongoing presence, power, and work in the believer's life, highlighting various themes of resurrection, divine intercession, and the believer's future hope. This hymn also emphasizes Jesus' uh role as intercessor and advocate. Again, this part of it actually advocates what we see in passages from Hebrews chapter 7, verse 25, which speaks of Jesus' continual intercession for his people. And so Samuel Medley's background as a preacher and his deep grasp of Scripture really shine through in this hymn structure with each line building upon as the builder's assurance of Christ not only lives but reigns, hears, and saves. This hymn is often used at Easter celebrations, funerals, regular worship services, always reminding congregations that faith in living deemer is the foundation of Christian hope. Now, when was this hymn first used in the Catholic Church? I could find any documentation on when it was first used. However, personally, I can remember this hymn being used basically as long as I can remember being a priest. And that's been about 34 years. And this passage, this hymn, of course, case takes from the passage of Job chapter 19, which many times people choose that passage as the first reading at funerals. Wonderful proclamation about believing that the Redeemer, Jesus, lives, reigns. And so when you look at this hymn, there is nothing in the hymn that is contrary to Catholic teaching. Again, the power of the hymn lives uh lies in this joyful certainty and its confident proclamation that Jesus is alive, active, and victorious. And through this hymn, we are invited to join in Job's ancient declaration and rejoice in the living deemer who guarantees our salvation and eternal future. And so, as you recall, Job's suffering, struggles, and uh and and trials, uh he could not be deterred from his faith in God. He just remained firm. And so, this hymn, like other present hymns, like Amazing Grace and How Great The Art, have been adopted over the years by the Catholic Church due to their wonderful and powerful expression of faith. So I hope that uh answers your question.

SPEAKER_00 27:49

It does. That was an incredibly good question. So check out that hymn.

SPEAKER_01 27:53

Anytime we look at that hymn, no, look at that hymn when it's sung. It is a wonderful hymn.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

I find it so interesting that it's applicable to Job because we usually just see Job in his patience of Job. Exactly. That's how our usual reference to him.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

Exactly. So I think we're running here short of time. So next episode, I'm going to talk about. Well, you had a question about what books Catholic authors I like, so we're maybe able to talk about that next week, and then we'll talk maybe about heaven, hell, and purgatory a little more. Perfect. See what else we want to talk about. But again, thank you for joining us this evening. We really appreciate you tuning in, especially as we offer here on Sioux Line Catholic Radio programs such as Faith in Action Draw Near, Life Plan, Catholic Ministry Professionals, and the Divine Mercy Chaplet, and of course Sunday morning mass. Please check out the Facebook pages for Sioux Line Catholic Radio and Father Knows Best for more information about this show, including information about the questions and answers I've addressed, and more information I often post each day. As we wrap up today's question and answer session, we extend our heartfelt thanks to all our listeners for tuning in, sharing your thoughtful provoking questions, your curiosity, engagement make the show possible, and we are always inspired by the incredible range of topics you bring to the table. We hope that you have found the answers both informative and enlightening, and that you'll carry some of the new insights with you as you go about your week. And if your question wasn't answered today, you may hear your question answered next week. If you missed this episode or like to re-listen to this or other episodes, please visit our website, Sue Lanla Catholic Radio, and visit the program drop menu and click on local programs to find this episode of the episodes of Father Knows Best and other local programs. Again, if you have any questions, please send your questions to me at father knows best show at yahoo.com or mail them to Father Knows Best, Sue Light Catholic Radio, 701 West Fifth Street, Sioux City, Iowa, 51103. And thank you to our sponsor, St. Augusta Indian Mission, Winobago. Please join us again next Wednesday at 9 p.m. for another round of questions and answers. Until then, stay curious, stay faithful, keep your light shining, keep those questions coming. For now, I'm Father Mark Story's host signing off. We should have a great week ahead. May Mighty God bless you, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.