Episode 3: Josh Tulgan - Finding A Home Away From Home

In this episode - recorded March 1st - I caught up with Josh Tulgan in the hotel where he fled with his family as rockets criss-crossed the air over their Dubai home. And I learned that it’s not the first time THIS DECADE that global events have forced them to pick up and leave everything behind.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to Andover Alumni Now. I'm your host and classmate Mike Miners. In this episode, I caught up with Josh Tolgan in the hotel where he fled with his family as rockets crisscrossed the air over their Dubai home. And I learned that it's not the first time this decade that global events have forced them to pick up and leave everything behind.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

And uh yesterday uh, you know, this little conflagration started and uh we started getting missile debris falling on our building. Oh my god. So um I am in a place called Ajman, which is um like an emirate north of Dubai, like an hour or so. Yeah. Uh in a very lovely hotel. And uh this is the second time in four years, almost to the day where I uh fled uh my home in Moscow when uh another war began. So uh yeah, man. Uh wow. So you get me today. So I get you today. This is insane. Yeah. Listen, we're not under direct harm. I mean, the chance of a piece of you know drone debris falling on me is very slim. But uh yeah, I didn't expect uh you know to be 49 years old and fleeing my home of 20 some odd years and uh and then having to do that again a few years later. But um we'll go back home. It's fine. Uh thankfully, you know, things are uh gonna you know wind down eventually. But uh it's uh peculiar to be a refugee uh twice in uh four years, basically. So this is what happened in 2022, just for context. Yeah, please. I'd done a lot of government relations work with you know between for because I worked for a Russian company for a number of years.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

When the war started, I had about$8,000 in Moscow. Uh because as an American, when you live abroad, it's it's really not advantageous to save money abroad. Okay. And for like investments and stuff like that. Uh and I knew that they were gonna cut off all the banks. And if you can't move money, like I I can't support my family, you know. Sure. So we flew to Abu Dhabi and uh stayed there for a couple of weeks and then went to Dubai, uh, thinking, okay, we'd wait until things settled down because we kind of hoped that it'll be quicker. The problem though is that my wife's US visa expired during COVID and everything was shut down. And then there were vaccine policies uh because we were vaccinated in Russia and the US didn't accept that vaccine, so she couldn't come with me to the US, basically. But what we had started doing in 2020 during COVID, because of the vaccine policy, we started getting my wife uh an Israeli passport. Um, because the idea was that I could get one and at least we'd have the same passport, uh, because that's important. And um uh the uh the irony is that you know she had you have to when you're Russian, you have to collect all these documents about like your grandparents being Jewish and great-grandparents and all this nonsense. And we were going to the airport to Abu Dhabi and she checked the mailbox, and the last document she needed, which ironically was sent from Ukraine, was in it. So um when we got to Dubai, we tried to get our US visa and they denied her a visa, mostly because it was, you know, she's Russian, despite we're married.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

Just for just for clarity, yeah, she's a Russian national.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

Yeah, exactly. Russian passport. We never lived in America because I was living over there. We have a home, cars, like the whole life there. And um, so we bounced around a bit. I was taking I took a job with uh like a Russian tech, like a well, a US company, but Russian-owned tech company and all this kind of stuff. And she went back to Moscow and I lived in Dubai, and then I had to go to Cypress and Mexico City, all these crazy places for this job. Um, and then I left the job because we it was just not right for me. And we had time to kill, so I was just like, let's go to Israel and get your passport. So we fly to Jerusalem, and when we made her application, you know, we uh I wasn't doing it for me, which because Americans have a totally different process. And um the woman there at the uh the ministry was like, so you're an American, you can't go to America, but you get a visa, uh, but you can't go back to Russia because you can't really live there anymore. I'm like, yeah, and she's like, Well, you are a refugee technically, like it uh is somebody who can't like go to their home or forced to flee their home, but can't go to another home, is like by there's some like weird like international definition. And I'm just like, holy shit, 49 years old, master's degree, uh relatively well off in the white guy, you know, and I'm like, I'm a fucking refugee, you know. Like it was just a really funny kind of thing to have send. And before she mentioned it, you hadn't considered yourself a refugee. No, I just I considered myself just trying to navigate a you know a pretty lame and you know particular situation, you know. You know, I was pretty much good. But I'm like me physically, I couldn't like get to where I wanted to go because I couldn't bring my wife with me, you know?

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

So um, you know, we got her paperwork done and she got you know a passport basically, but then we just decided to settle in Dubai for a lot of reasons. You know, Israel's not in even in 2022, Israel is a tough place to live. We didn't want to go there. Um, and Dubai is just an easy place, you know, you pay to play, you buy an apartment, you buy a company, or you know, whatever you do, and you can live there, you know, without any issues and whatnot. So we decided to come here. And now, of course, I'm like, holy shit, I gotta deal with this nonsense again, you know, rockets flying. You know, we've had drone attacks in Moscow near our home and all this nonsense. It's uh so yeah, this is not the way I expected to come into our 35th reunion, I'll tell you that much. Yeah. Uh that's how you got me, man. But um, I'm in good spirits. Wife is good, daughter's hilarious, she's enjoying the staycation, so uh yeah, she's sick, so you know, there's a pool and a beach, so she's happy. And uh um, yeah, that's uh that's life for me right now, man.

SPEAKER_01 6:12

So you have one child, a daughter?

SPEAKER_00 6:13

We do, yeah, one child. Okay. Yep. We wanted this a long time, and and it took a while for us to to to have a successful run at it and that sort of thing. But I can't think of something else that is as uh fulfilling and rewarding as as being a parent at this point.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

I'm I'm really curious. Like, she's six, and she has gone through now the two refugee things as a dad. What's it like bringing a young kid through all that?

SPEAKER_00 6:42

You know, thank I mean listen, I say refugee. Like I I'm not comparing myself to like these poor Ukrainians that are getting bombed like left and right.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

Yeah, and I'm not hearing that.

SPEAKER_00 6:50

You know, yeah, and nor like Sudanese people that have to like put all their shit in their head and carry it, right? Right. Like I fled Russia to a risk carlton, like you know, just in in full disclosure, and I almost took my golf club. So it wasn't like this crazy sort of experience like that. Yeah. Um, so you know, uh, I was talking to Sasha Kipkin the other day because he was actually in town and and we had dinner, and he was talking about a trip he was gonna take to Italy, I think, or somewhere to Europe with his kids, and he's just like, oh my god, I haven't even gotten him a passport yet. And I'm like, holy shit, like my daughter's already had three, you know. So this is the first time we've had like a physical threat to us effectively. And uh yeah, it was not a conversation I wanted to have about what rockets do and what drones do and all that kind of stuff, or what's making these noises.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

But uh, I mean, she's six, she's been to 13 countries already, right? Some for play, some for, you know, but also on this trek we took, you know, to sort of find where we are now.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:49

Um, and I think that um she looks at it as like an adventure. Um, my wife and I are really keen on making her understand that she is Russian and American. So uh obviously she speaks Russian, she's studying, but also being in Dubai, she also gets to study Arabic, for example. So, you know, we we we try to keep it positive, open as like adventure for her, and you know, through some play mechanism. So it's a uh, you know, like I'm not gonna tell her we're hey, we're a refugee, we have to flee our home and everything like that. We it's you know, we're coming on a staycation up to a beachfront property and we're gonna have a big pool and we're gonna have a lot of fun. And, you know, that's what we did, you know. Um, so she's uh she's got a lot of empathy for a girl her age, and I think that she is sensitive to you know the stress sometimes. But at the same time, uh, you know, driving an an hour from my home to a hotel to avoid, you know, rapist is you don't have to sell it that hard to her. It's not like a a thing, you know. I mean, if she saw, if she had seen the drone piece that fell on our neighboring building and started a fire, yeah, of course, like that would have been, you know, something different, you know. Uh, but you just protect them from that and you just uh kind of avoid it. We just but it's totally normal for her that she's born in Moscow, is being raised here. She asks me why I can't go back to Moscow sometimes, and I tell her, I'm not allowed to work in Russia, so I have to do my job here, my job is here. Like, you know, you come up with sort of ways to sort of think that, but so far it hasn't uh come to a thing yet. Like uh she's she gets she spends summers in Moscow. My wife and I, my wife and daughter go back, and you know, that's okay. Like that's enough for her, you know. She goes back over Christmas for a week, too. I mean, things like that. Sure. So uh we we still try to keep it as part of her life, make it as normal for her as possible.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

Um, yeah. And that's all you can do. I mean, trying to navigate cross-cultural families is always a challenge. We just have a political element to it. So you just kind of got to deal with that. So that's the idea.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

Has she ever been to the United States?

SPEAKER_00 10:04

Yeah. Um, my yeah, my mom lives down in Florida and and we go there once a year. We spend a couple weeks in December on her school vacation.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

Uh, but that was funny. It was like her first trip to the US. She was like five years old, or you know, four and a half, five years old. So uh she just turned five, I think. Yeah. How's her English? Oh perfect. She's in a uh English language school.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

I mean, it's uh her whole life she's been speaking English with you. Does she have like an American accent?

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Oh, yeah, yeah. Uh she says she says some words, strangely. Okay, but it's um no, no, no. You you there's like a Dubai accent where it's like a mix of Indian and Pakistani and and then uh uh but no no no, she's I mean her first language is Russian though, because my wife and I speak Russian. That was my the three of us speak Russian, yeah. And uh, but she and I always spoke English, so she was gonna get it anyway. But now the English is stronger because you know we had always thought that she would be in a Russian school, so you know the Russian would be there. Uh but yeah, she uh she's just fine with the language. It's it's just uh um but it it's a really interesting question though. Like like what is American gonna mean to mean to her? You know, and I have no idea. Um because she wasn't born there too, so she you know identifies with being Russian in that respect, which I think is really interesting. It's fascinating to me.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

Totally.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

But I open question, man. I've got no friggin' idea. Um, and plus, I mean, you know, just given the transitions that I've had over the past couple of years, it's been a yeah, that talking head song. Like, you know, how did I get here?

SPEAKER_01 11:35

Yeah, so when you look back, you did the um the abroad Russian program at Andover.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

I did not actually.

SPEAKER_01 11:42

I thought you did. I thought you didn't even do the oh my god, I I made the assumption that you were in that group.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

I didn't do the abroad program because I was I was DM of a radio station and I wanted to do that.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

But I I also knew that when I went to college, I was absolutely gonna do a school year abroad in Russia. Okay. So I didn't feel this compelling urge to um to do it. Right?

SPEAKER_01 12:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

Yeah. So um I went to Bowden, I did a school year abroad in St. Petersburg in 93, 94, and that was like my first trip to Russia, basically. Okay. And I went I went to work for a consulting company um after I finished my graduate degree. And I'm sitting at the coffee machine, and uh my colleague on today was there, and I was like, hey, so you know, we were talking about the States, and I'm like, have you ever been to America? And he was like, Well, I spent a few months in a small town in Massachusetts once. And I'm like, Oh, you know, I studied in Massachusetts, like, you know, what's town? And he goes, Well, you'll never hear of it. I'm like, no, try me. And he's like, Andover. And I'm like, I look at him, I'm like, uh, I'm sorry, did you study at Phillips Academy? Were you from are you from Novosic, Vietnam? I feel like you're from the school. And he was like, Yeah. And he was on the exchange program and in uh 19 uh 1991.

SPEAKER_01 12:57

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

And uh uh and and and and it was just so funny because I it it just got me thinking about you know Andover in the context of my life, because the Soviet Union collapsed just you know a week before we started our senior year, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 13:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

And uh, you know, before AI, before the internet even, or just as the internet was taking off, like there was Russia and there was Eastern Europe and and there was China to some degree.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:29

And uh for those who of us who didn't uh you know uh wanna do new technology or new business or new whatever it was, we were like, let's go to a new market. And uh Moscow um it captured a lot of imagination. It was crazy, chaotic, but uh you wanted it all you were like you knew you were in some like weird play, and you like, I want to see the second, third, and fourth, and then the fifth act.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

And the the what's funny is that we always talked, we, you know, the other Americans, the other expatriates, there, even you know, the Russians who were uh sort of you know uh professional and in our sort of professional groups and that kind of thing. We always knew that it would end.

SPEAKER_01 14:14

When you say you knew it would end, what is it?

SPEAKER_00 14:16

It meaning like the the exciting times right after the collapse or the When I say that I think we knew that it would end, it would be like, okay, the apartment the market will stop growing, the novelty of it, the um uh the vibe that it had, you know, we just thought it would change. Either we would age out or something would happen. Russia, like, you know, we had uh a whole generation of entrepreneurs come up. The kind of ex-Soviet guys went into the Russian uh oligarchs, they call them. And then you had the tech bros that kind of developed these interesting business, the entrepreneurs uh that came out of the 90s and the 2000s. Uh, because you know, everything that we have in the states was found in Russia. Like we, you know, I worked in telecom, we had an ATT type company, we had a Verizon type company, uh, we had a Google type company, we had logistics, we had oil, we had gas, you know, all this kind of stuff. And the question was always what happens when the the guys who found it retired die, or you know, whatever. I mean, or and then that extends all the way up to the uh the Kremlin, you know, who comes after Putin, you know? And um and these are always the big questions in Russia historically, going back generations. And uh in that sense, we knew it would end, like something would change. Um nobody thought it would end like it did. Um you know, not because of the Russians, but because of how the world reacted to it is a big thing too. Uh, because like I can't work in Russia right now because of sanctions. Uh not because the Russians say you can't work, but nobody's gonna hire an American because if they get sanctioned, then I have to stop working for them, you know. It's just logic in that sense. And um uh so so I think we knew that these house found days would end, but um in that sense is what I meant, like addressing your question. Like that's what I mean by it.

SPEAKER_01 16:06

Thank you. That that was a great explanation.

SPEAKER_00 16:09

Yeah, and and you know, it's uh like you know, I can go back, I can go back, I can be there. Like there's not an issue for that. I don't feel unsafe. Um, it's kind of a hassle uh for many reasons, but you know, it was just we had a an incredibly Moscow was a great place to live. It was it was inexpensive, low tax, you know, you're a lot of freedom, great transportation in the city, it's a cosmopolitan place, the food is amazing, you know, the weather can be bad a couple of months a year, but you know, everywhere's like that. So uh um, you know, in that sense, it's it's it's a shame. It really is.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

Did you see this coming when you were in college and you knew you were gonna go abroad? Did you have the idea I'm gonna live there for the next couple decades?

SPEAKER_00 16:53

No, I wanted to work there. Uh I wanted to be there and see it because it was just incredibly exciting. Going to St. Petersburg, when I flew first to Moscow and took a train to St. Petersburg when I was a student, that was my first trip outside of the country. And um, you know, and it was in that respect, I was like, okay, I want to see who these people are and how they live and that sort of thing, right? And you know, you make your first trip to Europe and like anywhere, you know, you live in a city for the first year always is hard because you're finding your way, you're finding good places to eat, you're finding how things work, you're learning transportation systems, you know, et cetera. But then by year two, you've got friends, you've got a rhythm, and you start settling.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:37

And, you know, I I did it in the 90s, and then I left, and then came back a couple of years afterwards, then did my graduate degree and then came back full-time, basically. And uh I always wanted to come back, you know. I was in graduate school, people were recruiting, and I was like, I want to go to Russia, I want to go back to Moscow. Like, that's where I want to go. Like I knew by then in 2002 that I wanted to be there full-time. But um, because you just sort of, I mean, there are a lot of things. It's it's the change, the constant change, the uh the novelty of it. Uh, your language gets better, so you can do things from talking to your coworkers better, to you, you know, whatever the the goal may be here, you know, like the you know, you can start telling jokes in Russian, and that like endears you to people and stuff like that. And then you start getting responsibilities at work, and then you start getting a little bit of wealth, and you know, you become vested, you know, and you think you're helping, you think you're building something, and uh, and that's then kind of what takes hold of you is that you become uh it becomes comfortable. And uh, you know, Russia was very comfortable for me. I I got to travel everywhere, uh found uh a crew for my for playing golf, found guys for, you know, I I DJ'd there in clubs sometimes. I like who's to stop you, you know, like nobody knows like hip-hop and funk. So I'm like, I do, I'll do it. And so I started playing hip-hop and funk at a bar every Thursday night, you know? Like random shit like that. And you um, yeah, and then you you you your professional circle increases, and you know, I mean, it just it's just sort of takes a life of its own in that sense. And then you meet a girl and you're then you're done, you're bound to it, basically, or you get married to it in that sense.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

So in so if external forces hadn't pushed you to leave, would you still be living there?

SPEAKER_00 19:30

No, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I so we own our apartment, we you know, we had a whole life there, a whole rhythm. Uh and you know, and and the career. I mean, uh, I had left my company in 2020, the one where I worked for most of my career there, about 14, 15 years. And um I was uh pitching companies to start there. I was a candidate for the American Chamber of Commerce presidency. Uh I had people coming to me to do deals. Like, I mean, it was just a whole kind of, you know, it was a career that I was had. And I was your life was there. I had, yeah. And you know, I was we had a our daughter was born in 2019. I we were totally comfortable keeping her in Russian schools, which are you know, can be very good at an early age. Uh but uh uh and you know, again, like you know, I'm I speak Russian fluently, so being there linguistically was not a challenge for me. I mean, a lot of people speak English anyway, but it's you know but also too, Moscow like is a uh you you know, you talk about travel, like Moscow is a great place to be for travel because uh you are four, you know, four hours and you can be London down to like Uzbekistan, you know, which is fun for many reasons, into Greece, the Mediterranean, the Aegean, the Adriatic. Like you could, you know, for weekend getaways, you could get anywhere you wanted to go. And um uh, you know, in the US, you're kind of isolated, like it's far. Um and so, you know, I mean, I don't know. I think I have a list of like 80 countries I visited. I mean, I've you know, taken backpack trips to Ethiopia. We do uh weekend in Vienna to go see the opera. Like, I mean, you just have this incredible choice available to you if you can, you know, kind of afford it, of course. But it was um uh but it was just also really interesting in that respect. And it was just your anything was open to you. Uh Moscow is also a lot more diverse than people think. Uh you have obviously like Ukrainians, Georgians, Armenians, uh Central Asians, uh, you know, people from the Baltics are there, Finns, Swedes, Europeans, all this kind of thing. So there was always a weird, you know, funky mix that you could find as well. So this it was an incre it's an incredibly easy city to live in. Uh transportation's great, services are great, everything's like E this, you know, everything on your phone you can do for filing taxes to, I don't know, getting married and stuff like that. It was just a incredibly convenient place to be. You know, but then it wasn't. And for many reasons, you know.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

Do you see it going back to the type of place that you would be able to go live the way you had been before? Or do you think it's like that ship is sailed, it's going to be something completely different now?

SPEAKER_00 22:17

Yeah, it's definitely that ship is sailed, it's going to be something different. There's a whole kind of range of things, uh, both personally, professionally, and then for my family. So uh for example, there was an Anglo-American school in Moscow. It was shut down. No school in Russia, I think, offers an IB program. IB is this international baccalaureate. So it's like if you, you know, you could do the British system or the IB program and then IB you can go to America. So you know, do I want to put my daughter in a Russian school without an IB focus? Probably not. Personally, I think that I mean, you know, money, like you have to pay US taxes, right? So let's say I got went back at a job there. If I can't move money to America to pay my taxes, then, you know, it's I can't. You know, that it's also like going back to Moscow is like visiting your alma mater like 20 years after you studied there. The buildings are the same, but the people are totally different. You know this whole episode just scattered the entire professional class, Russian, non-Russian, anybody. And you know, to go back and um rebuild is yeah it's doable. But it's uh it's going to be as hard as anywhere else in that respect because just so many contacts I have are are gone or doing different things or or whatnot. And then of course you know there's a um I don't think they want us back, you know, and the what I represented and the skills and the services that I can provide, you know, being an east-west bridge kind of a thing. I mean my focus was finance but I did like work with investors. I did GR work, all this kind of stuff like they don't really need it. They don't really need me anymore. And uh I just don't think that there's going to be uh uh much of an appetite for having a bunch of foreigners come back uh uh even with our money yeah they want sanctions relief and and they want to normalize and resume trade but uh you know a new generation is coming up and you know I don't know if it's uh we're gonna be part of that or uh whatnot. So it's a it's a it's a hard issue and I think even probably my wife has come to terms with the fact that we won't be living in Russia for any time soon you know and and that's a shame it really is.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

Yeah we all yeah it is what it is though you know so now it's Dubai for now yeah okay so you said for now so they're uh not quite ready to grow roots in Dubai or leaving the options open or uh you know roots involves like so many assumptions.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

I mean uh I yeah I I think that they what they've done here in Dubai is pretty extraordinary and it it gets a lot of uh snark because of perceived you know wealth ostentatiousness and everything like that but it's like it's kind of like judging New Jersey by the the industrialized coast. You know New Jersey is a beautiful state like uh there it's got so many great things but everybody thinks of Newark and you know whatnot because that's where all the industry is but yeah you know it's good that the industry is there because the rest of the state is so green. And uh um with Dubai here um yeah of course it's a tourist Mecca and they want high-end people and bigger is better and you know all these kind of things but I've yeah my my daughter studies at a school at 60 years old. There are now third generation people going through it and you you do have third generation wealth here from Indian Pakistani Arab Lebanese even Emirati kind of entrepreneurs and families and this sort of thing um they have developed a plan and execute it and you know when you if you just look at where we are and then what's around us it kind of makes sense it's uh you know uh services the Indian subcontinent it potentially will service East Africa um you know uh Central Asia as well so it's like they um and then and they welcomed us I mean this was really the only place where we could live without uh you know where it was clear and guaranteed we weren't worried that we would be like kicked out in a year or something like this. Yeah and uh for that you know this place will always have my gratitude and affection and respect of course but I see it's a lot deeper richer and far more interesting than people think and it and it's not just tourism that's you know a few places of course but it's uh you know there's community here there's culture there's um you know some innovative thinking there's uh uh novelty and humor I mean you know anything that any place around the world has and and it's been enough here to sort of understand that yeah when I hesitate just about roots it's um we keep our mind open um but uh you know there is hostility towards my wife's passport um because even if she has Israeli or something she's still gonna be a Russian passport holder and um I have to respect that you know my wife's like no pro-Putin rah-rah Putin kind of thing but she's pro-Russia of course she's Russian and um that's her home you know she likes she yeah it's her home it's her country and uh and you know like we know we leave Russia she's a US taxpayer um she's had three visas before and she gets rejected for visas so you know like what can I say I mean right uh that's that's not the reception that we were hoping for and she takes that personally of course you know understand uh so you know you got I have to respect that and and I do want to maintain ties uh for their sake for her sake uh because uh I want my daughter to understand where she comes from yeah no question about it yeah got it the hesitation to say roots is all of those things and I'm also hearing you know your life has been marked by a lot of change movement um things like that so it's like uh yeah sure maybe you would even decide you'd want to stay there but who knows whether that would be your reality. No um yeah listen I I there's like a a longing at the back of my mind for like oh I kind of wish we had that family house in Maine or New Hampshire or something or that place where we always go. You know I kind of wish that yeah okay if I could have gone back to Ohio and taken over my father's medical practice or something like I you know you always think like what if like that. But um you know that wasn't in the cards for me. So this is what it is and just trying to make the best for it. And you know uh Moscow is the legacy it's the home and uh you know I gotta respect that too no matter what what's going on in the Kremlin or elsewhere and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

Yeah and even if there is that longing for a life that might have been I'm hearing a lot of gratitude for the life that you have led.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

Yeah for different opportunities uh for the support it certainly wasn't a linear path and it always wasn't the easiest path. I mean uh um and and not in a way that like oh I could have come to New York and become a you know private equity executive or something like that. It was more of um you meet people who are far from our background you know in these places. Uh people who came up in in very different kind of ways but you also find that you have a share a lot of common values. My wife and I laugh because she's from what is called like the Pittsburgh of Russia a town called Mike Dagorsk in the Ural Mountains where they love hockey and they make steel which is like Pittsburgh right and um here I am from not steel country but we had a lot of steel factories in northeast Ohio and here we are we meet you know and the the funny thing is like you know her grandfather was born maybe like 60 kilometers away from the town where my grandfather was born in what is now Belarus uh and here we meet and you know the the funny thing was uh I don't know you you met my you remember my father right so you know my father had this pretty wicked sense of humor and uh uh when I took my first job after college in New York City I I moved to Brooklyn about a year in and he grew up in Brooklyn and he was driving me up flatbush and he goes he's looking around he sees like junior's bakery and all the places he remembers from his kid and he's just like you have no idea how hard I worked to get out of Brooklyn and now you're moving back. And this is of course because before Brooklyn became the center of the world so two years later I call him I'm like uh hey dad um they're actually transferring me to Moscow because my company was sending me to the Moscow office and there was a pause on the end of the phone and he goes do you know how hard your grandfather worked to get out of Rushville? And now you're going back so you know obviously he was being humorous but there was a lot of truth in that too uh and here I am 30 years later like you know flying out of Rushville being like holy shit what's going on so um yeah it's just uh some funny stuff like that. Uh no but it it's been a great ride you know you could always find home somewhere you could always live cheaply somewhere else I don't know I could educate my girl anywhere but I don't know it's a it's a funny idea um uh given everything that's happened. Uh feel a little bit different about certain things than I used to.

SPEAKER_01 31:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:56

Uh like today we we brought our valuables with us. You know uh because like um you know you you have a lot of documents right like birth certificates deeds to apartments you know all this kind of like stuff for our daughter vaccine records or whatever and so we just keep a suitcase with all this stuff in it basically because that's how we when we left Russia we had this whole suitcase of just documents. And then of course we have some some valuables you know my wife's jewelry you know I got a couple watches that kind of thing. Yeah and you know we took it with us you know I mean yeah it but it's but it's also like wow that's it you know like I'm like looking at it like that's all I got uh I mean it it's it's uh it's funny like that as well you know I mean yeah we have a whole apartment of our mementos in Moscow but but it's just funny right now because I'm like wow I am really portable I get my take my laptop and a uh a couple of watch like a watch case and yeah that's it that's all that's all I got.

SPEAKER_01 32:55

Well I love that you're safe. I love that you've you've got your loved ones with you and that life is okay like you were saying. I'm kind of happy that I got my hair too.

SPEAKER_00 33:05

I haven't lost that yet there you go that's gotten grayer man it's gotten grayer but uh no no no but um uh it it is a uh a funny thing because one thing that has been great is that uh pretty much like from late 2000s I guess up until I was traveling a lot to New York and I would always go in early uh December I think it was and we would do these dinners with these you know my room mates from Bishop basically you know like Kipka and Cushman and Hoover and uh uh Tyler Newton Shrevel Winberg uh Walker Teal came once he was in New York on business like we kind of you know get these dinners together and um uh these guys have been fantastic like I can't uh uh you know the relationships that I've made and that I made back then that I've been able to sustain like that's been just incredible uh with us and uh um going to uh uh I went to LA once and uh it was like uh Heather Keller was out there and she saw me on Instagram and she's like hey I'm like yeah let's go grab coffee and you know and then suddenly we're having coffee together. Uh she's a Chicagoan I think um but uh she was a year ahead of us but there's just always been like you know these little random encounters with Antover people all around the world and uh um and that's been a like an amazing opportunity like uh and and something for which I'm so grateful too and that you have this kind of network of people and you can sit down you can talk about stuff you can uh chair uh especially a chair because you know it's not just something like you meet in a bar kind of a thing. Totally uh and that's been a a really cool thing. And like I said like Tipka was here a couple weeks ago and I got to see him. Tamor Hadi lives in Dubai so he was in our class so I see him now and then um and that's a that's a really special thing. Uh that's the uh uh that's like the bee's knees about yeah to have that constancy and especially when everything's changed drastically of course well but it's also I mean just in and of itself fun you know like uh you you you you get like you go to a city and you're kind of like okay it was here and then suddenly you're like wow cool you know I get to like yeah I get to see this person that I haven't seen for a long time and indeed indeed that's been a that's been a big boon as well for uh something that I never I didn't have that for my college experience not for my grad school experience either yeah that's uh for me a uniquely handover thing and uh I think it's pretty cool yeah in that respect.

SPEAKER_01 35:33

Me too.

SPEAKER_00 35:35

Well we'll be on campus uh in the summer yeah this is gonna be fun I was I'm sad we didn't get 2021.

SPEAKER_01 35:43

Yeah me too so I'm excited about that completely agree it's been great catching up absolutely we'll see each other in a few months I'm looking forward to that stay safe I'm trying I'm trying cheers alumni and loved ones join us June 5th through 7th for our 35th reunion we'll see you on campus