Episode 8: Jon Odo - Our Overlapping Perspectives

Jon Odo’s work focuses on the productive functioning of teams. In this episode, Jon and I explore how everyone on earth engages the world from their own unique subjective perspective and what that means for groups of people who hope to pull in the same direction and serve a common goal, whether that be in a corporation, a community, a nation or even a family. I caught up with Jon where he lives with his family in a quaint little Boston suburb you may have heard of.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Welcome to Andover Alumni Now, the class of 1991. I'm your classmate and host, Mike Miners. John Odo's work focuses on the productive functioning of teams. In this episode, John and I explore how everyone on Earth engages the world from their own unique subjective perspective, and what that means for groups of people who hope to pull in the same direction and serve a common goal, whether that be in a corporation, a community, a nation, or even a family. I caught up with John where he lives with his family in a quaint little Boston suburb you may have heard of.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

I have a five and an eight-year-old, and I am walking distance from Phillips right now.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

No way.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

I live in Andover. I live about eight minutes away from uh from campus.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Whoa. And you're just getting started with the parenting thing.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

Yeah, I've got a third grader and a kindergartner. So yeah, we're at we're at that end of the spectrum, and it's interesting to see just, you know, having colleagues who are 10, 20, 30 years younger who are at least in that way in a similar stage of life, and you're like, parenting really is different in in your 20s, 30s, and your 50s. It's a very different experience.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Yeah, I would imagine. What's it like at your age? Well, how would you describe it?

SPEAKER_01 1:23

There are things I worry about a lot less with my children. Like um, I don't worry so much about financial resources and paying for college. We're pretty sure we we we know we're gonna be able to give them. Um, we know we're not going to be able to give them. Um, and that's not gonna change. There's no uncertainty there. It's not like, I mean, I could win the lottery, but I don't play, so that's not likely. Um uh so that it's it's a little different from being in your 20s where you're just not really sure um what that might look like and what your career is going to look like. Um we own the house, and this is the place we're pretty comfortable knowing we're gonna be here until they at least get out of high school. So we know that there's a degree of stability that we can provide for them. Um and we also I think have a good, clear understanding of how we want to parent. I think in ways that folks that are a little bit younger, in the same way that when you're younger, it's a little harder to know how you want to do anything. Yeah, we know how we want to parent. So we're we're much more aligned on that. There, the the surprises are within the known unknown bucket and not within the unknown unknown bucket.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

Yeah, well said. And I'm just reflecting on my own uh starting in my 20s with parenting, and that checks out completely for me. And looking back from where I am now at 53, I'm going, God, that it would be nice to know what I know now back then.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

Yeah, but now think about you would also have young children, and we are about to enter the thick of um all of the you need to be in this place at this time, and you need to be in that place at that time, and I need to figure out how to get you to um this competition. And I know how important it is for you to play a sport and play a musical instrument, and um, I need to spend time with you when I'm at a point in my career where I'm leading a pretty sizable team, so that there are trade-off decisions um that are exacerbated by the fact that 53-year-old, I'm also 53, has generally speaking, and in my case, definitely, a lot less energy than a 27-year-old.

SPEAKER_00 3:40

That is absolutely true. And I'm thinking about my 22-year-old right now and how he wants to hang out and the way I want to hang out don't quite overlap. We love each other so much, but we're always like, I'm always like, can we just take it down a notch? And he's like, Can we amp it up a notch? You know, when we're hanging out.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

Yeah, it's like we're gonna go out till I I can drink now, Dad. Why don't we go out till like four in the morning or like nine? Could we go out till nine p.m.? Because like I really kind of want to be in bed by 9 30. The struggle is real. So yeah, I mean, there are there are um it's it's a lot. I think it would be harder to see the trade-offs if you were in your 20s or 30s in your 50s, but you could actually make them in real time. In your 50s, you know you can't make those trade-offs, so it's a little bit easier to be at peace with them. It's like there's no way for me to go back and have children 20 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 4:29

Totally.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Not um right. And so I uh when I course correct, I do it within within some boundaries that are are set by where we're at in life.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

Yeah. But what a blessing to be able to be raising kids with the level of wisdom and experience that you have now. That's what I'm reflecting on right now. God, that would be that would be really nice to be to have some personally to like have some do-overs, you know, to be like, I've I've learned some lessons here. I would not approach that parenting decisions the same today as I would then. And you're in a you're in that position now where you are are able to bring more experience and wisdom to what you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 5:07

Yeah, no, it's it's the sort of like um the trade-off of of uh energy and enthusiasm for experience and wisdom where I'm like, I probably should do that, but oh boy, I'm too tired. We're not like I we should be going out for a bike ride, but we're I'm I really hope you have a friend who wants to take you for a bike ride because I am not I ain't doing that. I'm too tired for that. Uh yeah. Um, but yeah, no, it's that there there are trade-offs, certainly. Um, but there are there are certainly uh significant advantages that we're taking that we're that we're appreciating.

SPEAKER_00 5:40

Yeah, that's amazing. And so what are your your kids into? I I'd miss that you said you have uh uh someone in third grade. So when I said you're at the beginning, I was mistaken. Third grade's not the beginning.

SPEAKER_01 5:50

Uh not the beginning, beginning, but also a kindergartner.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

And also a kindergarten, that's what I heard. Um, and so what's that like having that big of a spread between your kids? That's gotta be an interesting thing.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

My kids love each other so much and they love playing with each other so much. I don't know how long this is gonna last, but um, we'll take it while we have it. Yeah. Um my son, kind of a really sensitive kid. Uh it's one of the reasons why he he why he can tolerate dealing with a five-year-old for so many hours of the day, is because he really he wants her to be happy. He loves to make her laugh. Um, he and he really enjoys that. He's also very, very introverted. So he's he's perfectly happy to spend time with her. She, of course, not of course, but she does idolize her older brother, and she loves when he reads to her, and she wants to do all the things he wants to do, and he's enjoying that that, you know, I've got mastery of some of these things now, and I'm not just showing my parents who are like, hey, that's great, honey, that's awesome. I'm still on my phone, but like I'm paying attention to you. You can show his sister and she's like, This is wizardry. I don't know how you did. How did you how do you know that the the remote control can be set to Amazon Prime and we can watch the show and you do that all by yourself? Like you're you're basically an adult. Um, so those are those are really, really fun things to watch.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

Wow, what a beautiful thing to have your kids be that way and so into each other that way.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

We we got really lucky. Um, this is really wonderful and this is great. But my daughter also comes into our room every night between 1 and 3 a.m. and has been doing it for like six or seven months. So remembering that, like as terrible as that is, and as much as that makes me sleep in the spare room some nights, because I'm like, I need to get a full night's sleep, that will also pass. The good things will pass, the bad things will pass. And you kind of kind of think about and enjoy as much as you can the child you have now, because that child is not gonna be there in three months. It'll be a different child. Same same kid, you'll you'll love them, but they're gonna be a different kid.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

Absolutely true. And again, a reflection of that perspective that you have at our age, that when you're younger, you think this stuff's gonna last forever. Every little stage, the hard ones, like when is it gonna end? The good ones, it'll always be this way, and then you're right, it just keeps shifting.

SPEAKER_01 8:18

And I think that's like when I think about what does we have coming up? Our 35th reunion? 35th. 35th. So, like, that's some of the things is I I was thinking about it's like, where was I 10 years ago? Where was I 20 years ago? Where was I 25 years ago? I still have the glasses from our 10th reunion that's saying, like, you know, class of 91, 10th reunion glasses. Um, and I think about the the importance and significance of just an object, and then I think about the importance and significance of the relationships and how I don't remember most of the interactions I have with people, but I can look at someone and remember the emotion that gets evoked. And there's a lot about that that I'm looking forward to as I think about going back, um, knowing and at least hoping that the rest of us, 52 and 53-year-olds, will also be like rekindling that shared experience and kind of like dredging back up some of those some of those things as a mature adult that that I'm really looking forward to.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Yeah. What you just said reminds me of a quote I heard. I don't remember whose quote it was or where I heard it. But the quote is people don't remember what you do, people remember how you make them feel. Yeah. And yeah, that's such a great thing to remember. And that's definitely the case for me about Andover. Andover, I'm so connected to Andover because of how it made me feel. I just love being there. And the people that I met and knew and the things that I did there. It really is just like this really wonderful, warm, fuzzy feeling for me. And so you are in Andover.

SPEAKER_01 9:59

I am, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

What what why are you in Andover? Uh, did do you are you from Andover?

SPEAKER_01 10:05

No, I grew up in Hawaii.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

Grew up in Hawaii, okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:08

Um, and I uh came to Andover my upper year, so I was there for two years, uh, California for college, then lived in New York, then moved back to California for the dot-com boom, um, then moved back to New York and was there in 9-11, and then was back in San Francisco and got the opportunity to come work in Boston. So we moved back to Boston in 2010. We had a nice house in in Melrose, which is a little suburb closer. It's like just at the end of the Orange Lines, just at the end of the subway. Um, and then uh there's a a small, tiny little global pandemic that happened. I don't know if you remember this, but um yeah, yeah. And I was just I don't know if it made the news anywhere you are in Chicago, but like it's it was pretty big news here. Uh and we were pregnant with the second, and we're like, boy, okay, what are the chances I'm going to be restricted to a job where I have to be in the office? All of a sudden, the options for where we could live just exploded the kinds of things that we could do. And so we looked at a bunch of different towns. We found uh this house in this town, and we saw kids in every house, and we saw this you know, beautiful, leafy lined uh street, and it was just this amazing neighborhood that has remains a really great one for small children, um, and moved in. And the like as soon as we got there, um, our next door neighbors came over and said, We're having a backyard party tomorrow. You want to come? And we're like, we found the right neighborhood. This is exactly the right neighborhood. So that's how we got here. It wasn't an intention to move back to Andover, it was all those kinds of things, and Andover kind of ticked all those boxes for us.

SPEAKER_00 11:55

It's beautiful. And it's turned out to be the case that you don't need to go into work at maybe you go to Boston once in a while, but you're working from there.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

And uh, I think I've been into the office three or four times in the almost a year I've been here. It's a new job. So I've been here for just for about a year. Uh so yeah, it's it's absolutely worked out.

SPEAKER_00 12:12

Amazing. And what are you doing? What's the job?

SPEAKER_01 12:16

I um run product and operations for a public media fundraising outsourcer. So uh WGBH and Rocky Mountain Public Media, it's about they're about almost 60 organizations that we work with in public media, they outsource all of their fundraising tests. So if you get a you call in a plant, you do use you get an email, you get mail. That's probably from someone in my group. And my role is trying to figure out how we scale ourselves outside of public media, also to get a little bit larger. And and really thinking about um the way I like to think about it is there's a there's a gravitational force that public media has exerted, weak though it is, uh, creating a degree of consensus across the entire country. Like these are things Sesame Street, Frontline, Downton Abbey, Nova. These are things that every American, wherever you are, has something in common with. You can look at some of that stuff, this old house. You look at one of those programs, and you go, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I like that, regardless of you know, small town, big town, city, rule, right, left, whatever it is. And one of the big things that that I think is important that we're working on is this notion of what else connects us, and using our understanding of donor segmentation and donor data to figure out how do you create long lasting connections between disparate communities across the United States. And I think that's like when I think about the the public good, the mission part of what we're doing. It's a it's really nothing less than trying to figure out how we create and stitch together some new consensus for how this country can operate with some degree of civility and and some degree of being together. The short-term part of the job is raising more money for public media. But there is there's absolutely a long-term mission that to me feels like a great one to be focused on.

SPEAKER_00 14:26

I think that's uh it's wonderful that you're able to take the thing that you're doing, which is I assume it's a tech, because you said you weren't you're in California for the dot-com boom. So you're doing a you're approaching this from the tech side.

SPEAKER_01 14:40

Uh yeah, absolutely. Um so it it there it's it's um it's largely data focused and sort of uh data modeling, data conversion focused. So it's it's a lot of that. If if I think about um a lot of the stuff I did, audio engineering. Uh I worked at a company that did uh created consoles and software for recording artists to make albums. So like we worked with uh Michael Jackson's producer and DMX and Trent Reznor and uh all the Green Day, like all those folks used our use the software that that we built. What company was that? I I use audio software. Uh Digi, Digi Design. Oh, digital tools, yeah. Oh my god. Um and then I worked at Isotope for four years as well. So um uh before they merged with data instruments. Um so yeah, like um a lot of that stuff. Um if you think about uh I ran uh program management for Isotope. So uh my my job was to get all the trains to run on time. Uh and then yeah, for Digi, I was in in product marketing, and then I was in um then I was uh I set up the first automated test engineering group. But a lot of it is it's really when if you kind of like abstract it up to its highest level, it is uh using using data to create a shared consensus around the work that we should be doing, and then focusing people most effectively on that shared goal.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

And that's that's your expertise. That's my expertise. Yeah. Wow, what an incredible skill to have. Beautiful, useful skill. We need a lot more of that in the world.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

Useful, um, but not always easy for people to understand why they should pay for it.

SPEAKER_00 16:31

Oh, really? Interestingly, it's not recognized as a valuable uh thing for an organization. Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_01 16:39

Uh oftentimes people will say um it's really clear what we need to do. We want to be number one in the business. Right. Very simple. It's pretty obvious we need to do blah blah blah, right? It's it's obvious. I know where we need to go, it's in this direction. Why don't people follow me? And so the the idea that you would have some folks whose job in the organization is to make meaning and distill meaning out of numbers and conversations and and create productive discourse, that that's actually a valuable skill to have in your organization. It's it's not always apparent to everybody.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

Not recognize that it's a tremendously difficult thing to do.

SPEAKER_01 17:19

Oftentimes, and if you think about um if you think about like what somebody like a Steve Jobs did, he was able to do that, but he did it in a very directive fashion. Here's my vision, here's what we're trying to do, here's who I want to be. If you don't want to be this, get out. I don't want you in my org. Right. But he he didn't he wasn't um impervious to other people's thoughts and to uh to taking feedback, he just had a very strong vision for it, as opposed to the head of Patagonia, who actually worked in a very different way, worked much more driven by consensus, um, or the head of uh Morningstar uh tomato, who also worked in very different ways. If you look at like there are many, many different ways of doing it. Um, if you lean more towards the directive autocratic style of working and you happen to have caught a good wave, you don't really need consensus. You can just tell people do this thing. And when you distill down a leader's behavior over the course of 10 years and ask, like, what are the things you did, oftentimes they will tell you about what they did. They won't tell you about the 4,000 hours of meetings they spent just to get people to go, oh, I get it now. Yeah, right. So it's it's kind of it's hard to see the value of it because there's no it's just hard to see the value of it for some folks.

SPEAKER_00 18:34

And it's really it's really hard to um to recognize that necessarily to that but it is such a uh difficult problem with people generally, uh which is that I I may have a vision and I may be able to say words that correspond with my vision, but the words that I say to you about my vision leave my mouth with the meaning that I put into them, but they travel through the air without that meaning, and they reach your ears, and then you make meaning of those words based on your perspective and your history and what you're feeling like in that day and all the things that happened to you in your life, and it ends up being a different meaning necessarily. There's just no way for my meaning to transfer directly to yours, and that happens the same for every individual person. This is what I'm dealing with when I've I run political depolarization workshops and I'm a communication coach, and this is a principal problem that uh everyone's dealing with, whether it's in a family or in an organization or anyone that's any group of people that's trying to pull in the same direction. They deal every individual person is making different meaning. And how do you coordinate all of that meaning into something coherent? That's a tremendous skill. So the fact that you can do that is impressive to me.

SPEAKER_01 20:00

Yeah, I tend to think about the the notion of intersubjective reality, right? So this this idea that like intersubjective, I love that word. So there's like subjective reality, which is only in me, right? So if I say I'm hot, yeah, you can't know that unless I tell you, but there's no objective way for you to look at it.

SPEAKER_00 20:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

But if I say this is food, we might disagree a little bit, but basically it's food. They're mixed nuts, right? That it's it's food. That's an objective reality. Yeah, intersubjective reality is something like we live in the United States and it's the greatest country on earth. We live in the United States, which growing up in Hawaii, I could tell you there are a lot of people who would vehemently disagree. Hawaii was illegally annexed and is not part of the United States, it is de facto occupied. We don't share the same reality. It's the greatest country on earth. Many people do not share that opinion, whether you do or you don't. The important thing to know is our intersubjective reality on a schema like that is far apart. And if we can't bridge that gap, then it's really hard to have coordinated action. And that's really what we're trying to do is create shared intersubjective reality because that leads to coordinated action.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 21:14

Otherwise, I gotta tell you what to do. I'll be like, Mike, here's what I need you to do. Do this as opposed to we want to go here. How do you think you would do it? Right. If our intersubjective realities are well coordinated, we're in good shape. If they start to clock drift, we need to pull them back together. And that's like you just need to keep you need to keep that going. You need to keep feeding into that pool of meaning, that shared pool of meaning, because that's how you actually that's how you create that.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

I just love having that term. Thank you for that term, intersubjective reality. Um and that this is what I coach people, and I've just never had that term before, but that that gap is the issue is how do we speak to each other and listen to each other in ways that Favor that gap lessening.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

And that if you think about that as like abstractly, that is your goal. Then you take a look at things like um crucial conversations or nonviolent language or like all of these things are the tools that help you get there. Um, because when you, you know, if if the problem I'm facing is, you know, you believe the most important thing, like the thing that human beings should truly value is our independence and our ability to chart our own course. Whereas I believe the most important thing that humans should value is the positive impact they make on others. What we need to do is figure out what are the mechanisms that allow us to unlock coordinated action between those two things. I'm not going to get you to try and change your mind because that's a therapist's job. Yep. That's your job if you want to change your mind. What I do want to do is make sure that we create enough linkages that we share enough of an intersubjective reality that we can actually move forward on something that is meaningful for us. Yes. And if you could do that, then you you can get Republicans and Democrats and libertarians to agree that we should limit damn building on this river. You just have to figure out what the thing is that connects to all of those, creates enough of that for shared action.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

Yes. And one of the one of the tools that I coach is positioning yourself to be a viable conversational partner over time, which is to say we disagree, we don't see things the same way, but that doesn't mean you can't talk to me. That means I can listen to what it is you're saying, I can take it in, I can respect it, I can leave it in as your business, and I can share my point of view in a way that isn't hostile to you, meaning in the way that I approach you. Maybe my idea is hostile to you, but that I'm not presenting it in a way that's trying to shove it down your throat or deny your reality or the way the I would say the way you experience reality, which is very much valid no matter who you are. Yeah. Um, and that if I can speak to you even in our disagreements and maintain my status as a viable conversational partner rather than someone who's trying to oppose you or just take you down, then it creates the environment for the term again, uh inter-subjective reality.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

Intersubjective reality.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

Yeah, intersubjective reality gap to close over time. One of the things is that overtime piece is that it can be so tempting to discover that we disagree and then to end our relationship because of that disagreement or to go in different directions, which is totally reasonable when when the experience of the disagreement is so emotionally fraught. Maybe I do just need to need to care for myself by not talking to you. Absolutely. But that to if I can to stay in the game with you, uh, if we're disagreeing, uh long enough for that gap to close over time, uh, is such a crucial thing.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

There's a great um clinical psychologist, uh Keegan, who talks about kind of adult forms of mind. And uh in kind of thinking about if you think about what one way to characterize the way the human mind works is it it's it is a simulation machine. We are continually simulating reality and testing it against what we experience. And that simulation machine requires some boundaries around it. So you set a frame, and that frame for some people is has for everyone, it has some inviolable parts, but for some people there it's like impossible to see outside that box. So you think about like I am a cisgendered man, but can I can I contemplate the fact that that has colored enough of the way I think about the world that a woman or a gay man or somebody who's intergender might have a very different experience of the world. I don't necessarily know what it's like to be that person, but I can understand how that's a different frame. If I could think about that from the standpoint of somebody who went to a boarding school versus somebody who went to a public school versus somebody who grew up speaking three languages or one, like all of these different things are their boundary conditions around how you think about and simulate the world. What I need to be able to do is make space and change my frame in order to be able to move it closer to yours. And you should be able to do the same for me. And if we can do that, then we can create enough of a shared frame where the Venn diagram is large enough for action.

SPEAKER_00 26:57

Absolutely. And I get have no control over whether you make that shift.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

You may or may not, and I can decide over time if I'm going to shift enough for us to reach shared action or not.

SPEAKER_00 27:09

Yes. And my experience is that if I am willing to take the position of uh trying to move to close that gap, and I'm very present and open and listening in a way that you recognize that I'm listening. I'm able to show you through my actions by maybe reflecting back to you what I've heard and um and taking it in that it's my experience that a willingness to make a similar move to close the gap um tends to be inspired in the other person. It isn't always the case, but often is. But it's it's what is what's interesting is it doesn't come when I demand that you do it.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

Yes. Um, I mean, reciprocity has to be uh reciprocity is all humans respond to reciprocity, some less, some more. Um, but it's not the reciprocity I intend, it's the reciprocity you experience. So I gotta keep trying different things until you experience that reciprocity, and then you are likely to respond. That's why in in game theory you start with tit for tat, right? I do something, you do something, I do something, you do something. And when that fails, the next strategy is not to withdraw. The next strategy is uh two for one. I give you two instances for you to respond. And that's actually like when you when you look at the way Nash uh framed out game theory and won a Nobel Prize for it. This is some of the outcome of that work, is this notion that reciprocity and the way you actually quote unquote succeed requires uh if you want to reach that end goal, will require you to bend more than the other person in many cases.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

And that is a more successful strategy than you know, quote unquote, sticking to your guns.

SPEAKER_00 28:56

Yep. And it's funny, uh not and I don't know if it's funny, it just so happens that a lot of my clients bristle at that notion. Um I understand it, it makes perfect sense to me. Well, why do I have to bend over backwards?

SPEAKER_01 29:13

You don't. You you are free not to. Amen. The question is, what's more important to you? Do you want to reach this understanding or do you want to stand in the place where you are? Yeah, you can you can do either one, the likelihood is you can't have both.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

That's right. That's right. If I want the outcome, I I do it. And the reason I the reason I bend over backwards is because I want the outcome of bending over backwards and what that the way that supports our relationship and my sense of well-being within the relationship. I actually get a benefit from it, but it can seem uh sometimes when things are really fraught, it can seem like a zero-sum game that I don't want the other person to win uh in terms of the balance of giving.

SPEAKER_01 29:55

Um yeah, one of the ways that I I do I also do some considerable amounts of executive coaching. Um, and one of the conversations I'll have with executives is um try to think about your long-term well-being. If you are able to be happy giving more and taking more, if you are happy, if you can make yourself content and happy reaching your purpose through a whole bunch of different means, you are going to be happier and more content in your life in general when you are able to flex these muscles. So even though that person wins this transaction, you win overall in your life because you are actually going to be happier overall. Yeah. Totally. It's just you you will be happier. It will it will make you happier as a person, it will make you able to appreciate things in the moment and in the future and in ways that that, while this interaction are painful, are better for you. It's like it's like going to the gym and working out. Like, yeah, maybe you like it or maybe you don't, but like it's probably an exercise you really don't like to do. But when you do that one, your rotator cuff is stronger or your knees don't pop, or whatever it happens to be, and that that is that's the outcome you're going for. Your outcome is not even if you're even if you lose the weightlifting contest to the guy you you're in the gym with, you still win because you're stronger.

SPEAKER_00 31:22

My experience too. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 31:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

Well, John, it's been great to catch up, man. I've been talking more about this on campus.

SPEAKER_01 31:29

Absolutely. It'd be great.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

Good to see you, man. Good to see you. Alumni and loved ones, join us June 5th through 7th for our 35th reunion. We'll see you on campus.