Bonus #1: There is Music in Talking to Strangers - Mark Oomen

Musician and friend of the podcast Mark Oomen makes music. But that's not really what this episode is about.

You might know his work from the soundtrack of this podcast, but Mark's world stretches much further than that. We talk about his creative, musical and social projects. Mark makes a pretty compelling case that musicians might just be some of the most important people in the room right now. Not because music is beautiful, but because it can also be political. And connects people. It tells stories that need telling, and it has the power to start much needed conversations.

This one's a musical journey with a message for social change.  

🐚  Mark’s souvenir for you: talk to a stranger today, tomorrow and all the days after 

📚 and familiarize yourself with the work of Esther Stanford-Xosei 

Other links

• AfroGrooves 
• Arts of Resistence
• The Mystefiers
• Music Kiala & Afroblaster 

Hosted by: Daphne Frühmann
Editing: Axel Frühmann
Music: Mark Oomen
Instagram: @theartofcoexistence
An Ourcelium Publishers podcast

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Yeah, or maybe for a selective collective, like they say, ah, we're talking about us, but us is not everyone. So maybe sometimes people use words, but they do not really meet mean everyone. And yeah, I think that is um that's a big problem, and that is something that I'm not really happy with. And I think for me, coexistence has always been also in a world of hyperconnectivity.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

We humans have placed ourselves outside this way of living, but it can teach us the biggest lessons and leave us in almost what happens when we reconnect to the nature from which we arose, move in sync with it, and coexist in a symbiotic way? Will we make other decisions? Will it change the way we perceive ourselves? What and who can teach us if we are willing to listen? We invite you to be open and amazed by today's guests as they offer a glimpse into their art of coexistence. Today I am joined by a very special guest. If you've listened to this podcast before, you've encountered his work already. Our wonderful signature intro music and other soundscapes throughout the episodes are all of his work. His name is Mark Omen, and as you might expect, he's a musician, but actually, he's a bit of a jack of all trades because he's also a teacher and someone that organizes all sorts of events, projects, meetups, etc. Let's see what all of these activities have in common and how they relate to the art of coexistence. Hello, hello, Mark. How fun that we can have a chat with you today.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Hey Daphne. Hello. Thank you for having me. Also excited to talk with you, to be part of this episode.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

And you're already part of the podcast, actually, already, so we're in a perfect in a perfect double meet. Um my first question to you, because I was already mentioning that you are a bit of an all-trade personality. Can you tell me a little bit about your day? What did your day today look like?

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Um started off being with my son, uh, my one and a half year old son. Um I went visiting a friend who's about to give birth to her first child. And then um I went to the I live in Amsterdam, Netherlands, and then I went to the library to have a couple of meetings with some colleagues from a foundation which I set up myself with some other people, which is called Afro Groups, and that's uh yeah, one of my main activities is to um organize, promote West African music with a large community of West African musicians and also non-West African musicians in Amsterdam.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

Excellent. Was this the only project that you worked on today, or was there another meeting for another project? Tell me.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

So my days are always it's it's it's really scattered. So sometimes I have four or five different projects, and I need to go from A to B to C to D to B to C to A, and then I'm back home. And sometimes the day lasts 20 hours, but um, it's all exciting and it's it really fits how I spend my time and to do what I love.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

And I yeah, so so I mentioned in my uh in my introduction that I'm curious how all of these relate to each other. So many of the projects that you do have music as a as a basis, but maybe you can tell me a little bit first about Afro Groovs, what it is that you do with this foundation.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

So actually, Afro Groovs, it started off as a jam session, uh a monthly jam session in Amsterdam, uh during which people just professional musicians but also amateur musicians play, improvise new music on the spot. A lot of the stuff that I do is based on coincidence, an opportunity that came across my path, which I then just grabbed, and then I start to do something. So Afrogos, for example, started for me because I was asked to host this very jam session in the summer of 2017 in Amsterdam, and it was just me and four other people just jamming and no other people joining, just people enjoying their drink on a on the terrace, uh having a beer, and then just some couple of couple of friends just playing music. But then I was asked to do it again, and then I started thinking about hey, what can we do with this? And then fast forward five years later, it's a foundation with more than 50 events per year, and it's and a team, and we hosted festivals and workshops and resource projects, and that's just because that happened.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

Yeah, that's what you say, but I I like to I do like to argue that these things don't just happen, it might also be because you're very open to for something to happen, and um true, and with this, it also sounds like making it a foundation. Apparently, there's something that you really want to do with it, like you you you saw it as an opportunity to make an impact on a different level, maybe. Um, so maybe you could you can explain what it is that you hope to reach with this with this foundation.

SPEAKER_00 5:29

What is it that you um so that's that's a correct conclusion you just draw is that um the fact that we turned it into a foundation, with something that started off as a quite informal um gathering every Sunday after every first Sunday afternoon uh in Amsterdam. At one point, we we just noticed that there was a community that grew, the same people that came back every month, and the thing they all told us was we really enjoyed the openness, the the atmosphere, the the feeling of being welcomed, the feeling of being part of something, of something that is not you do not necessarily need to be a professional musician, you do not need to be hip. It doesn't cost money because it's free, it's on uh based on donation or just free. And um, and and the music that we play is Afrobeat, is West African music, which is music that is um pioneered by Fela Kuti, a musician who pioneered the music genre of Afrobeat in Nigeria in the 1970s, which is a musical genre that has to be played with lots of musicians, like a minimum of eight and sometimes up to 14 musicians at the same time, playing a groove in which every musician has their own part of a small part of a groove. So um it's really needed that people listen very carefully to each other, that they they do not take uh uh too much space themselves, but leave space open for other people and building something together, um improvising, giving solos, but it's also music that's really political. He was really talking also about um about colonial past, about Africa being divided into lots of crazy rectangular and and and straight borders.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

Um, yeah, I want to say before you get into the political part, I'm also actually very interested in what you mentioned just before that, um in how people enter that space of making music together. Like, um what do you see happening there when people need to uh not take too much space, they need to listen to each other. What is this what is this trait that this music gives people as well in maybe how they socialize or how they act or behave in the world? What do you see happening there?

SPEAKER_00 7:53

Yeah, um, good question. I think I think what for me made a lot of difference was that I did attend some jam sessions before that, but not that many, because all of the jam sessions I went to were not really my cup of tea, because there was a very dominant jam session leader, a lot of ego, a lot of showing off, and that's something when I was asked to do something to to host a jam session that I really did not want to do that. So I was like, okay, everyone should be able to play, even if you're not professional, if you just want to try, if you feel the music, you want to sing, please come on the stage. So I was really actively reaching out to people in the room, like, hey, do you want to play? So nice that you're here, just engaging with the people, um, and then guiding it, like, okay, maybe just helping someone who feels lost because it's like I I don't know how to improvise, what should I do? Just give them some some tips. I'll play along with that instrument, or just play this chord, and um, yeah, to guide it a little bit in a gentle, uh uh uh constructive, supportive way. And I really felt that that made a lot of difference, and that was the reason that people also kept coming back.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

And do you feel that what happens in in that musical space at that moment is that something that they or you maybe yourself, maybe you can talk about your personal experience first, that you take with you when you go home or how you show up at work, or um, yeah, I'm I'm curious because it sounds like a very very much like a social a social activity that might actually change something in other behaviors as well.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

I wish to believe. So, yes, and I do know that it's the case. I think it's a very it's a very nourishing activity because um it's it's social. You you are with among people, you're having a good time, you're making something, you're you're you're creating art, you're listening to each other, supporting each other, applauding each other. Um it's it's also a space where people are meeting each other, people who would not necessarily meet each other on a daily basis, or not at all, even people from different cultural backgrounds, socio and economical backgrounds, different ages. We've had like a selection of people or group on the stage at one point, like maybe a 14-year-old teenager with a 60-plus old person, and I think that's the beauty of it. And when you go to some other events, it's like, oh no, it's only for like hip 20, 30, 35, max, whatever, something like this.

SPEAKER_01 10:33

Is this uh is this the mission of the foundation as well, or or do you have um different type of mission? Is it to bring people together or is it to be more inclusive? I'm drawing my own conclusions now, but maybe you have a um you have a mission ready.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

That's well, what you say is really important. So uh bringing people together, so forming connections, um and then through the the West African music, therefore be that's a red thread, using that music, the the artistic aspects, but also the social political aspects of it to have a starting point, to bring people together, to learn about each other, um, and to hopefully um yeah, add something to the world.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

Do you feel that uh West African music is better equipped for that than other types of music? Is there is there a reason that you went in this direction at some point in your life?

SPEAKER_00 11:26

I think I was just drawn to the music because of the group and the the hypnotizing quality of the music, because once there's a groove which really locks and interlocks with musicians and musical parts that really complement one another, then you get in a kind of a trance. And some of the songs also they last for 15 to 20 or maybe even 25 minutes per song. It's not a classical concerto with three or four movements, it's just one piece, it's one groove, it's one chord even or two chords, but still it it it takes your attention, and then I think also because the grooves can really last long if well played, people can take the time to also dance on it, to really find their place in it, uh, not to worry too much about chord progressions or changes, and then and then have fun and experiment, play solo, sing a little bit. It just it's just the music really it offers so much for for for for the art of the jam session, really a lot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:37

How do how do people find their place in a piece of music?

SPEAKER_00 12:41

Listening, that's the most important part. So just listen where's where is it where where's the space? Is there in in what frequency, in what kind of rhythmical part is there a space? Uh also just try to copy one another sometimes. Uh, but it's a process where everyone is a little bit different. Some people really have a hard time. Um, it's something that you also I think you need to learn. Um but um yeah, there's a place for everyone.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

But I can imagine that it's also fast learning if it's in such a large group that you that you can uh look how others do it and that you can copy how others do it, maybe. Is that is that what also happens that people constantly look at each other and learn from each other?

SPEAKER_00 13:27

100%, yes, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

Um so what are the types of events that you then organize with this foundation? You have jam sessions, but there's I'm sure that there's lots more because otherwise it would just be a jam session still, but it's become more than that.

SPEAKER_00 13:43

Yeah, so one of the reasons we we turned the informal jam session into a foundation was that we did want to um develop projects that went beyond the single event per month and beyond the no strings attached jam session. So then we started to uh also do gig we all always already did gigs, but then do performances, concerts on a more serious level, also to to host workshops on specific topics, specific rhythms or regions or uh cultures, um or or his historical uh episodes, jam sessions, workshops, gigs, festivals, research.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

Yeah, we just we do a lot, we do a lot of different things, but and is this still then within West African philosophy in mind as well, or how much do is that ingrained in in what you do? Um and what is what is that philosophy, or what is your philosophy, maybe?

SPEAKER_00 14:46

I think what we with the group of people that we work, it's now a team. We are a team of six or seven people. I'm sorry, uh the kids I teach like six, seven is like six, seven. That's horrible. I'm sorry, I'm I'm a teacher as well. I teach children a lot, so this is I cannot help it. But um, so it's seven people, we're a team, and I think what we it's not per se West African philosophy because that doesn't exist as such, you know. It's also West African music is a very broad term. Uh, if I would need to it, it's just I think we we took a uh kind of the region because that's where a lot of uh groovy music originated. So so Afrobeat, which has its roots in in West African, like Mandinka music, uh traditional music, but but in a lot of different also Yoruba rhythm rhythms, uh in funk and jazz.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

Um can you do a can you do a rhythm for me?

SPEAKER_00 15:46

Well I don't know, all these different types of rhythms. Well, well, and um the thing of of Afrobeat is that it's it's very repetitive. So, for example, there would be just one person who would play on every beat, like chuck, chuck, chuck, chuk, then someone would who would play after the beat, and then two notes like chuck tuc chuck chuck chuck chuck, and that already is a gives a kind of rhythm. Then a guitar would do like chuck like and then with all these rhythms combined, there is it's a kind of a kind of I don't know, a maze or or just uh an interwoven interwoven with with in which everyone has their own place, which is crazy, and and I really love that a lot. But but to to come back to the point of African philosophy, African music. So we play Afrobeep, we play high life, we've played with musicians from Sudan, from South Africa, also from the diaspora, so Afro-Brazilian music, also music from Suriname, from Curaçao. Um, so it's quite broad, but I think when it comes to the philosophy, it's I think we do center social justice um as a very important thing to strive for for a better world, which could fall apart in topics like um yeah, something that we do what I talked about before is is is trying to uh have people from different generations, uh people from different economical backgrounds, different cultures, uh try to bring people together, um not go into the train of capitalism trying to earn because it's not about you know it's not about making profit, we're not about making profit, which is not a mission we have. So sometimes when we come to partners, a venue or whatever an organization, it's like so how so hey, you your jam sensitive are for free, but why and how and huh? And people just they like they their their brain freezes, it's like they're kind of short circuit, but you're not about making money, so huh? And and um because the music industry is also it's it's a it's a sick industry, it's really there's so much money going on uh in the music industry, and and also artists not really get paid that well unless you're a really big artist. But I think that we also try to in how we organize the events, we try to have that in our minds, but also in giving platform to musicians that have a story to tell, stories about oppression, about a fight against oppression, story about historical oppression. Uh yeah, it's it's quite broad, but it's I think everyone in our team shares more or less the same bandwidth of this philosophy.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

And yeah, so it's it's it sounds broad, but in at the same time, it's also very much about social economical situations, maybe like people from different backgrounds in in wherever they're from within the society, or maybe then intercultural as well, where they're from, wherever they're from in the world. Obviously, you're in Amsterdam, so there's a lot of different uh cultures living, which is probably super interesting for the foundation to to bring people together. Um, and I'm also thinking before you were already going a little bit political, but it sounds with these topics of suppression that you mentioned, that there is definitely also a political side to it for you. Yeah, how much how how deep do you go with that um in the music or or or in the sessions that you do, or is this for the workshops that you organize?

SPEAKER_00 19:25

This is really a good question, which I think even makes more clear what what we do and how we do it. So um it boils down to both the music we play, the choice for the musical pieces, that's one. And the second thing is the the projects we develop. So about the music. So, for example, we have a a playlist, like a repertoire. It's Fela Kuti, it's Ewa Taylor, it's Antibalas, it's Bishika 70, it's a lot of Afrobeat bands.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

Um, but I love it.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

That's that's that's no no problem. Um, so which is like artists from the 70s, 80s, so the the pioneers of the genres we play, and then the modern the modern bands that that that that take that as an inspiration and take it into a maybe a more modern version of that. A lot of the music is really political at talks, so the the the the lyrics is is literally is it's a it's against uh abuse of power, it's against capitalism, it's uh it's it's about liberation, it's about yeah, it's it's about a lot of different topics which are very political and very um social justice oriented. That's one. The other thing is okay, I told you about the different projects we do, um gigs, jam sessions workshops. So for we so one of the organizations we work with a lot is called Here to Support, which is an organization in Amsterdam which is partly led by and meant for undocumented people. Um so people that really do not fall anywhere in the system or invisible for the system, who do not have right for education, no right for health care, no rights at all. And at the moment, also I'm there's also uh the the the the the the um these ideas for new laws which criminalize the aid to undocumented people um and in the whole of Europe uh there's a there's a there's a far-right current really anti-immigration. Here it support is really an organization that tries to support people, work with them, for them, and also to to make sure that that the humanity is brought back into the discussion because we're talking about humans, which is sometimes forgotten. You know, it's like people who are being portrayed as as as as animals, as as as terrorists, as as as uh predators, whatever. These are people who who in a lot of cases are from from from From regions with conflict regions that had a really good reason to flee their country because of sexual orientation, because of war, because of famine, or whatever. Um, so the fact that we work with them, we have two projects coming up with them in the next two years. One is one is in Amsterdam, one is in Paris and Brussels and Amsterdam. Um the one in Amsterdam is also with an alliance with more organizations who work on the on the um uh intersection between art and um uh uh social justice. So, for example, the Panasian uh collective about Asian representation, uh the queer collectives. So it's yeah, we try also in the people we work with, the music we play, the way we program our events by inviting people that are really political. Um, so for example, we also we did a uh a Palestine fundraiser a while ago, and then we invited Loki, a rapper from the UK who was really outspoken, really uh uh uh a spokesperson for Pal Action, Palestine Action in the UK, who is a really a huge name, who is like a half he has a half million followers. We played four gigs with him in in the span of five years, I think, and just to work with him to give him a platform which he doesn't get all the time, even not in the UK, because he's being boycotted and blacklisted, etc.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

Okay, so yeah, I think this He definitely give yeah, you do give a voice to um uh to political injustice is is what you're what you're saying, and that's not something that you do with only your foundation, but you also have partners that you do that with.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 23:48

And um here to support, for example, what's uh I also sense that it's very much with them about connection because you were saying we're really missing the humane aspect of it. There's still people that we're talking about coming from a horrible situation in almost all cases. Um, how can we find connection again with each other from human to human and trying to understand each other? Is is this is this what music is to you? Is that that that is a way to connect?

SPEAKER_00 24:18

Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's a means. It's uh you know, you know, that connection is also something that I try to find myself without music or which I try to do in my work and just talking to people and connecting to people, yeah. But um, I just find find that music is a really good means of both um just having fun and relaxing and having a good time and to nourish your body and soul, but also uh as a means to to tell some certain stories, to bring across a message, or also even to to to reel people in to take them to uh as a fish to take them in into something more political.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

Let us believe our power.

SPEAKER_00 25:08

So, for example, Afrogroovs also is the co-founder of the platform Arts of Resistance, and then actually we founded that platform together with Aralest, another organization in Amsterdam, and we said that that goal was twofold. So we just wanted to give activists in Amsterdam and the Netherlands a break, just people who go to demonstrations, who organize a lot, just invite them for a for a party and and have a good time, but also to use music as as a way to politicize and make political make people who are not that politically aware make them more politically aware. And we it we we really found that that was a really a really good combination because we were just having a great time, we were just bouncing on epic music, and we were having the time of our lives, and it was it it it wasn't about nothing, it wasn't just like love songs or about booze or or or money or whatever. It just it was about something real, and and there is a message still, yeah. And also tribute to all the beautiful protest music and protest art and that's been made.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

Yeah, I do love how how with sharing all this, you're actually making my case for calling you a jack of all traits because you're jumping from one foundation to the other, and then there's there was this initiative and there's that idea. Um do you want to tell a bit more about arts resistance?

SPEAKER_00 26:31

What you're doing with that, because we're just bridging towards because the podcast is is also about nature and the the relationship we as humans have towards nature, and I think what I learned because I'm a learner, I love to learn, and I I know some things, but there's a lot I don't know, and I'm just really eager to learn about so it's good to realize that there's still a lot that you don't know.

SPEAKER_01 26:54

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

It's it's uh I I love I love I love to be a learner. So so I learned through all these artists we work with. I learned a lot about different practices, different art forms, different stories, different histories, different cultures, and also um the partner organization of uh arts of resistance uh RLS, they work a lot with indigenous communities from all over the world. Yeah, we gave we gave some space to to some communities and to artists were telling a story about their struggle for um for the preservation of nature, nature rights, uh guiding, protecting uh yeah, uh the Mother Earth, uh protecting the rainforest. Um so also to be aware of um when it's about climate justice, for example, people sometimes people in the west they tend to suggest that the struggle for climate justice, the fight for climate justice only started like maybe 10 or 20 years ago, or Extinction Rebellion, or they name Geta Thunberg. Um but this is in fact something that has been done always by indigenous communities all over the world, yeah. Also to fight colonialism and to preserve what they have done and still have for thousands of years, which is to have a basic, really respectful, uh reciprocal um uh connection with nature and flop philosophies about nature, and and I think that is um that is some something that I at least a perspective because I you know I I know some things about some communities, but I still not know much about it, you know, uh in terms of details, but just the general perspective of um taking into account those stories and to be able to listen to those stories because those are also the communities that are under threat the most by multinational companies like Shell and like just big oil companies or tech companies that just take away large parts of rainforest, erasing, wiping away entire communities, still just like they did three four hundred years ago.

SPEAKER_01 29:14

And how and and in what way can art resistance supports support this? Uh let's call it a fight.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

Giving a platform for people to tell their stories, um use the music to get people in and to make them aware of certain issues, challenges they might not be aware of, living their comfortable lives in the urban regions of the Netherlands, for example. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:41

Uh you mentioned um you just said a very relevant word, I think, which was uh reciprocity you mentioned, um, which means giving back, giving back to nature as well, like what we're taking, we should also give back or give back in in other ways. Um how do you see this this quality or maybe this core value of yours? How do you see that um drippling down in the work that you do, maybe maybe as a teacher?

SPEAKER_00 30:09

Yeah, yeah, that's I think that's that's that's really important because to teach is to give something, of course. So I love to learn. I still, you know, I'm still taking classes in in music, in languages, in everything that is there to be learned. If I have time, I want to learn. But um, I love to teach because you just can give something back and make sure that knowledge or ways of thinking or questions that are worth asking are being transferred to next generations.

SPEAKER_01 30:41

What do you teach? And who do you teach?

SPEAKER_00 30:43

Okay, do you have a minute? So I I teach I teach a lot. I I teach um uh music, for example, on an elementary school to toddlers and preschoolers, so really the cutie smally ones that's right from two to two, three, four-year-olds, five-year-olds, uh, and that's just that's just music, like songs and rhythms, and just having fun, enjoying music and and learning some basics.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

Do you already see with a group of of um of people that young? So, with toddlers, do you already see some similarities as you also see when you're organizing your um uh your jam evenings, for example, with the foundation? Well, like, is there the the idea of giving each other space? Is a toddler able to give another person space, or what do you see happening?

SPEAKER_00 31:36

Not at all, not at all. You already know the answer. I see it in your face, but um no, but it's I think just the joy of playing music. I think that's important because a lot of the kids I teach, they I know for a fact that they do not have a musical upbringing, there's no money for an instrument, or music has a like kind of a different or difficult status in in their upbringing. So that's that's one. Um, but also it's yeah, it's also so I I really believe in in yeah, in music to to have music around you, like music, uh, playing, singing, making music together. So that's really important. And I yeah, I just it it works for me, also, right? So I just love the energy of the groups, of the kids, all with their own characters. It's like they're so young, but there's they have so much character, it's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 32:26

I can imagine, yeah. And then there's other groups that you teach.

SPEAKER_00 32:29

Yeah, yeah. So and also I also so I the next thing I do is I give workshops in uh in the musiekgebouw aan het ei, which is a venue for classical or experimental classical music or electronic music in Amsterdam, and over there I teach all different uh groups, it's it's it's elementary schools, high schools, um, adults, uh businesses, uh companies, whatever. But there I work with a specific specific selection of uh instruments, they have uh synthesizers mainly, and there's instruments that are made specifically for the music. It's a different way of making music, it's also really creative. People do not need to have any technique to play music, just having fun and showing people that you that everyone deserves to make music, that everyone is is, I believe, people always say, uh, do you make music? Do you like music? I'm not a musician, I cannot make music. And I'm like, music is for everyone, even if you think it's not for you. I think everyone should have the possibility to make music. You really just do not like to do it. That's that's fine, of course, if you're more into sports or drawing or whatever, but I I do believe that everyone has this quality inside themselves to give something and to shape into a into musical perform and to make music together just as a group process, it's just very interesting and and a lot of fun. And it's you learn a lot from making music together.

SPEAKER_01 33:54

Is there something is there something universal in making music? So even for a person that doesn't call themselves a musician, do you think that there is something that happens to you when you actually make create music yourself that's universal, or is it different for everyone?

SPEAKER_00 34:11

I think I think like brain scientists would probably have a theory on what happens inside your brain. I really don't know, I'm not a brain scientist, but I do know that um I'm not really a big fan of trying to universalize things because also music is for a lot of people, it's also especially in specific parts of the world where music is is is is just part of their lives, period. It's just what is there and that no questions asked from a very young age, then it's just cultural, or it's religious, or it's um within certain traditions and rites and and ceremonies and ceremonies, yes, and so and so then people really do not make music because for fun, it's just because they feel as a task, or just something they they need to do, which also has a beauty in it, but it's it that's something that for me it's I I can I I can never fully grasp that because that's not my reality, for for example.

SPEAKER_01 35:11

No, no, uh, and at the same time, it's it is maybe something that it's uh engaging at all times or something. So even if it's if it's for a ceremony, then it's to engage you in that ceremony. If it's making music with your friends, you're being very engaged with your friends at that moment, so it might be something, yeah, something very different. And then there's all sorts of music, of course, but there is something that is maybe with music that it's connecting.

SPEAKER_00 35:40

Yeah, one thing is really it's just a very funny thought is that music. Some someone asked it to me recently, I think it was my wife, was like, Oh, you spend so much time in music, but actually you make music and then the sound is gone, it disappears. So wow, and for her, she's not she's not a no, she likes music, and maybe she plays a little bit from time to time or tries out some stuff. But for as someone who is not a musician in the first place, it's like I really do not understand why it's just you know, if you're a painter, you make a painting and it's a physical object.

SPEAKER_01 36:14

If you are a sculptor, uh or or um it's tangible, the painting is tangible. Yes, tangible sculpture is music, isn't something you can grasp with your hands.

SPEAKER_00 36:25

Yeah, it's just gone. It's on the moment itself, it there it is, and then it's gone. And so, yeah, you need to do it.

SPEAKER_01 36:31

How does that make you feel?

SPEAKER_00 36:32

Yeah, you need to just be present in the moment and enjoy it, and and it can make you it can make you feel so many things and do so much, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:42

Yeah, I also like that word for it. Presence is a very big word, and I I can imagine that also with the groups of people that you work with, that it's very much for them to be present at that time, yeah. Uh, when you're doing something, something with them. Uh, I'm thinking maybe this is also an interesting bridge to another project that you have, the demystifiers.

SPEAKER_00 37:03

Yeah, I I like your bridge. I like your bridges. Your bridges are good.

SPEAKER_01 37:08

Because this is a slight, it's a slightly different project, but um, but I think it's a beautiful one that also shows what music can do for people in their behaviors, but also in their social um social skills, maybe even explain what you do with the demystifiers, please.

SPEAKER_00 37:23

Yeah, so so um I was asked, I think about four years ago, to join a project to work for a foundation uh with the name The Mystifiers, um, which is a foundation that tries to bridge a lot of gaps and to contest some ideas and definitions and conceptions. I think in the root, it's about also to work with specific groups of people with psychosocial problems, people with maybe uh uh history in substance abuse or with a homeless history and anything, you know, combinations or or variations on that theme. Those people they come into the mystifiers through well-being organizations, and then what we do is that we have a couple of bands, smaller bands, and each band consists of four or five participants that came in through well-being organizations, to students from music academies, and then a band coach, and then the band coach I am one of the band coaches, and then what we do is we have uh half a year to to make a repertoire of 30 minutes, four, five, six songs, and to record a song professionally, one song in a studio, and to do a showcase in a big music hall like Paradiso or Tol Aston.

SPEAKER_01 38:48

Oh, that's amazing for for people that are not used to it to then have an actual stage.

SPEAKER_00 38:54

Yeah. Well, some people they used to be really great musicians and professional musicians, but they just had some bad luck and they took some different path than they might have imagined, and then they now try to get some grip.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

Listen to your app I think that's actually maybe this sums it up then as well is that with this with this project, you're supporting people to get the their grip back on their own own lives. Well um how how so? What does that what does that look like? How do you see something changing when they start making music or when they put themselves on stage?

SPEAKER_00 39:35

Yeah, yeah, just I can give you loads of examples, but try it um give me one, just um so but I think in general it's it's also people you know having some consistency in in having to show up every two weeks on a Friday from 11 till 2. Um, the idea to make original music, so it's like challenging creatively. It's you do you do not need to pick covers, they're making something new with a band, and the band changes every year. Some musicians stay, some leave. There are some variations between the bands. Um, and then we just jam and then we make we arrange the songs. I have a part in also trying to flash out the recordings and make uh suggestions for for um for arrangements, but also it's a very like a democratic process. People have a lot of influence in in what's it gonna sound like what's it gonna look like on the stage, who's gonna do what. But um, for example, one guy he was really had really like money problems, and he had he had a lot of debts. And then at one point he came in, he told he told me like, oh, it's that's that's that's history, and he had a job, and he was just in in a couple of you know, in in some some years he I saw him just the the development and and um and the joy, and also he he he was a rapper, but he he also wanted really to play guitar, and so I gave him the opportunity to learn some chords and to play guitar live on a stage for the first time in his life. That's amazing, and just the combination of people, the music, it's yeah, it's it's and it just feels like one big family, and and there's also backlashes as well, because I know not backlashes, but like people sometimes they drop out as well, or they have a hard time, or yeah, just it's really rough, you know. You see the rough side of life, but um, yeah, it's just it's a big family, and it's really just a beautiful. It's also for me. This is also it came on my path on a it was so clear that it was meant for me, also. There was a reason for me to be part of this because you can make music for yourself as an artist and brand yourself and try to you know uh gather followers online or sell tickets and be popular. But at one point in my life, I might I think I had that those thoughts as well. You know, I played in bands and I tried to grow a band or whatever. But at one point I was like, Oh, but music is it's so powerful, it can do so much more, and it should do so much more, and I have a role in that as well. So that felt like a calling for myself. So this just like Afrogrows, this foundation is just something like okay, it makes sense. This is it's it's art, it's music, but it's also social, and that combination of art and social is just yeah, it's just extremely powerful, it's just and fun, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:20

And this is also you being reciprocal yourself. Like, this is also then your way of uh you know the music, but then you can help others um taking a their next step in society, maybe again. And with this specific project, it also really sounds like you're uh giving them maybe accountability to show up again, not only for others, but then by showing up for others, you might also start showing up for yourself again. I can imagine that that's maybe something that happens.

SPEAKER_00 42:47

100%, yes.

SPEAKER_01 42:48

And then giving them agency again as well by even um giving them an instrument going up the stage and then having to perform, so you can't you can't bail from that. So I think that's really yeah, that's probably I can imagine that that's very strong, that you can really help people find some uh find some footing again.

SPEAKER_00 43:08

Yeah, and also just connection, just seeing each other and then supporting each other, just being there, uh just being present, and yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:16

Yeah, beautiful. Um I am aware that there's a lot more projects and uh and examples that you can give us, but I had a um a question that I'm also curious about because we are now talking on the art of coexistence. What does that mean to you? Like the the artful part I think we understand because music music is your art, but um but maybe maybe you have a maybe you have a different opinion still. But what yeah, how do you see the art of coexisting?

SPEAKER_00 43:45

What is yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah, when I have to explain it for myself, I would say that um at least in Amsterdam, the Netherlands, or in the West, quote unquote the West in general, people are very Very individualized, I think. So that's one one thing that comes to mind also if it coexists.

SPEAKER_01 44:07

And that's not a good thing. I'm hearing that.

SPEAKER_00 44:09

No, that's no, that's not a good thing. Of course not. If people put themselves in before the rest of the world, that's a recipe for disaster. Climate breakdown is a result of people thinking about themselves in the first place. Just an example, but a very important example, of course, because people are destroying the earth because they want the best from themselves and for their families and for their kin, but not for the world at large, or not for someone they don't know.

SPEAKER_01 44:39

Not for the collective.

SPEAKER_00 44:40

Yeah, or maybe for a selective collective, like they say, ah, we're talking about us, but us is not everyone. So maybe sometimes people use words, but they do not really meet mean everyone. And yeah, I think that is um that's a big problem, and that is something that I'm not really happy with. And I think for me, coexistence has always been also for me, it was never a problem because I I love to meet people and love to talk to people and to strangers, and that's what I saw my dad do as a as a when I was a boy, he just talked to everyone, so that's what I did when I grew up, is just to talk to everyone and to be interested in everyone. Coexistence is for me just to engage with people or just talk to people you don't know and learn, and then having the task for yourself, especially for me, specifically for me as a parent of two kids, for me to work on some topics regarding social justice, oppression, fighting against oppression, against discrimination, racism, um for climate justice, uh to the extent that's possible in my own life. Uh uh, you know, of course, I I also I'm also pragmatical, so I'm not I'm not uh the the best boy in class, so to say, but just to strive for a better world, which is a better world for also for my kids. And a better world for my kids does not mean that they will that only they will be able to study or buy a house or or whatever. No, I think that's a that's a really a that's that's a problem. You you should be striving for a world in which um people have will get those same opportunities and they they do not have the same opportunities. So that's just that's just false meritocratic thought that that people hey if only if you work hard enough then you'll get there. That's I I don't believe in that. Yeah.

unknown 46:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:27

Well, and also uh it's maybe not just for your kids and their jobs, but also for everything that comes after, right? So it's leaving leaving um a better world, but having a more long-term vision, maybe, and how you yeah, and what's needed for that.

SPEAKER_00 46:41

100%, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:43

Um we always uh ask our guests to give us a souvenir at the end of a conversation. So if someone listens to our conversation, what would you like to give them as a souvenir? That can be something uh that they can do, uh a practice that they can build in their routines or an activity, or maybe it's a book, or maybe it's a musician, something. What what would you give us from this journey that we just went through?

SPEAKER_00 47:11

Yeah, yeah. Can it be two two things, or should we just one?

SPEAKER_01 47:14

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 47:15

Okay, just just a thing to do is um don't say make music because that's talk to strangers. It's really it's really a lot of people are like why should I talk to someone I don't know? It's the greatest the greatest thing on earth just just to walk on on you know or in in public transport to have that mindset or worldview that everyone is worth talking to, and that you might have um uh certain thoughts of people, certain um ideas, like preconceived ideas, yeah, um, judgments like uh from for certain people, and prove you know, let yourself be proven wrong, or uh learn something, so that's something you can really just do every day.

SPEAKER_01 47:59

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Be very open to be open to others, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:03

Yeah, I think we also talked about the work of um Esther Stanford Um uh Jose, and she's uh a reparationist, uh UK based reparationist. Her work goes really too far to uh and I'm not well equipped to really summarize what she does, but she does talk about reparations, but not necessarily paying back what what uh uh what others took, and this is about colonialism. And most of the time it's it's being um that it's being defined as a financial reparation, right? Paying, for example, money to the descendants of enslaved people over the world, or specifically for for for the Netherlands, for Afro people with with Surinamese or uh background, for example, uh Afro-Surinamese people. Her conception of reparations is so much broader, it goes about restoring the earth to a kind of pre-colonial situation, uh, to the relations people had before colonialism took over and destroyed so much. There's some really good, good, great work of hers online. Um, videos, lectures, Esther Sanford. Yeah, yeah, she's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 49:13

Is there one uh one specific article or a video that you think we should start with? Or not necessarily?

SPEAKER_00 49:19

Well, the the best is just to uh to I I I I I got to be lucky to have to follow one workshop um just with her, like in person with a small group, and then uh as as the workshop uh proceeded, she started to talk louder and louder, and we got more like engaged because to be in her presence is is just already really amazing and to hear her stories. But there's a lot of really great lectures and and workshops online on YouTube, for example. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:47

Wonderful. Esther Stanford Jose.

SPEAKER_00 49:50

Check that.

SPEAKER_01 49:50

Excellent. Thank you so much. I want to thank you for sharing all these uh projects with us, and I'm super curious to see how many more you will start. Um, and I hope that you will continue everything that you do, of course. We'll um we'll put a few links in our show notes of all these amazing projects that you that you run. Uh is there anything else that you wanna wanna send a message into this world, or maybe send a rhythm into this world?

SPEAKER_00 50:20

Wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 50:22

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 50:24

Thank you, as well, for having me. It was really nice to talk.

SPEAKER_01 50:29

Thank you for listening to the Art of Coexistence, a podcast produced by our Celian publishers, editing by Axel Frumann, music by Mark Ollman, and hosted by me, Dr. Fruman. Find us on your favorite podcast app and give us a follow, like, subscribe, andor share, and we'll see you again soon.