#9: Together Alone into Together Together: Building Less Lonely Societies Through the Values We Promote - Lucas de Man

Loneliness is all around - even on governmental levels where important decisions about our future are made. A feeling of togetherness is looking to be activated. In this episode Lucas de Man pleads for love as an antidote.  

With his company New Heroes he's involved in many different societal projects. What he flags is that our behaviour and thought patterns won't change unless we really connect with each other and act collectively. 🌀

Through their creative studio Biobased Creations they not only talk about change, but actually design, show and build the possible futures.  🪄 

Lucas and his team know how: through Artistic Intelligence (yes, AI)... There’s no ignoring the wicked problems we face, but the good things is: everyone now sees and feels (also in their wallets) that things need to change. 

🐚 Lucas’ souvenir for you: hug a loved one for more than 20 seconds. It will give you and them energy and you will feel why we are here. 

https://biobasedcreations.com/ 

Hosted by: Daphne Frühmann
Editing: Axel Frühmann
Music: Mark Oomen
Instagram: @theartofcoexistence
An Ourcelium Publishers podcast

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

You're already fucked. I mean, if you didn't involve the people at first hand, they will not care. If if it's not my plant or my garden, then I will just throw trash what you see happening. But they did studies for this. If you involve people at the beginning of the co-creation of their own neighborhood, they take ownership and responsibility of their own neighborhood.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

Yeah, yeah. In a world of hyperconnectivity, we see more disconnected than ever from the living world. A world of natural wonder that has its own systems in place and masters the art of coexistence. We humans have placed ourselves outside this way of living, but it can teach us the biggest lessons and leave us in awe. What happens when we reconnect to the nature from which we arose? Move in sync with it and coexist in a symbiotic way? Will we make other decisions? Will it change the way we perceive ourselves? What and who can teach us if we are willing to listen? We invite you to be open and amazed by today's guests as they offer a glimpse into their art of coexistence. I am honored to be talking to today's guest, Lucas de Mann. The Dutch Amongst Us might know him as a TV host and presenter for cultural programming, but he is also founder of a company called New Heroes. And he is a writer, theater maker, and general creator with what seems to be a motivation to drive change. With his work, he also gives AI a whole different meaning. Ever heard of artistic intelligence? Lucas, I'm so excited you're joining me today. We have a lot to talk about.

SPEAKER_00 1:41

Yeah, yeah, thank you. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

My pleasure. Is there anything you feel like that is missing in this introduction?

SPEAKER_00 1:49

That I'm a father of two little daughters. I think that changes everything. That there's a young generation coming up and that we are I feel the responsibility through my veins every day when I look at them. So I think that changed a lot. And for the rest, it was a great introduction. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

When I say that you seem to have a motivation to drive change, is this because of your daughters? Has this motivation grown bigger? Was this always a motivation?

SPEAKER_00 2:17

I think my my biggest motivation is to have an impact. And if an impact drives change, then okay. I don't think my main uh drive is just to change things, because some things are amazing or should be respected or should be sometimes even brought back. Um but the main goal for me is to have impact and to be part of the world that is around me, and that sometimes feel like I I don't have a grasp on. And since my two daughters are there, both under two, so no sleep, um, but a lot of love and laughter, is that I realize because of my daughters, I realize that I cannot teach them how the world is because I don't know how it is, but I can teach them how to search and not be afraid to not know and search. So my impact is not about me knowing what the world should be and pushing everyone. My drive for impact is that we are connected and that we try not to lose the quality of searching because that is getting into the unknown, trying to understand what our values are and and acting upon that is my main goal.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

Beautiful. We actually hear that a lot, I have to say, in conversations I have with people that curiosity is a very important skill to have and to keep practicing. Is that what you're saying with this as well?

SPEAKER_00 3:35

I think people are just we we are just specks on the universe, right? We are just little little nobodies. Uh we are here for a very short time. We are very good at giving and destroying and taking and giving again. Um and we all need love. Um and I think if we realize that we are part of a bigger system, then we can be humble and great at the same time. Humble because it's just us, and great and active because everybody plays a part. So the impact doesn't come from taking over or ruling. The impact comes from understanding that you're part of it. So you can play a part at the same time. So I believe being humble and being cool and active is very close near each other.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

And staying staying connected and wanting to keep on learning and understanding what is going around you.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

But we have we we don't we don't understand shit. So we we will never understand. So the more you learn, the more you know that you don't know. That's a typical philosophical uh and tantrum. But I do I do like the idea that the unknown is one of our biggest uh powers that we have. So the fact that we we are constantly rediscovering and discovering things makes that the reason why we are still here. Because if we would know it all, then we can stop. And luckily, history and the future together in the present show us that we we don't know so much, um, but we can learn all the time. And and as an artist, because that's my main being, I'm I'm an artist, I create, is is searching and being curious, and the unknown is is the main drive. But the goal is to connect people, nature, to connect us, even in brief moments, to share that not knowing instead of you know trying to fix the world, which I can't and will never want to strive for, because then I will be burned out in two months or something.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

I think so too. Well, it's it's a nice thing to strive for still, um, but maybe not to think that you are the one that has all these solutions, right?

SPEAKER_00 5:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:36

Yeah, it can still be your motivation. So uh I wanted to talk about your uh company New Heroes. Um, this is a company that exists of two creative studios, it's possible futures and bio-based creations. I first want to go back to the name of the company, New Heroes, because with this new, you maybe imply that there's also a thing as classical heroes or old heroes. What is a hero to you and what makes this company or what you do with the company, what makes it a new hero?

SPEAKER_00 6:08

A new hero is he, she, or them who is not afraid to not know. That is a new hero. The old hero, like Superman, he knew I'm here, I'm a man of steel, nothing can destroy me except for kryptonite. But you know, I don't want to encounter kryptonite, and that's it. So it's like a superhero. Then you get the anti-hero, the hue grands of this world. You you stutter, you stumble, but you still get the girl and the money and the fame and everything. Neo-capitalistic hero, sort of you don't have to be really good, uh, you just have to strive for success.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

Bit of a lazy hero, maybe. So I'll just do my best and then we'll see what happens.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

You don't even have to do your best, you just have to be born in the right nest, right? So it's it's sort of establishing the status quo. Um, and if you're born in the right nest in the right circumstances, then you just do a little bit your best and you become super successful. And the rest, you know, we don't look at it too much. I mean, that that was the the actually the narrative for years was as long as you work hard, everything will be all right. You know, you'll get your house and a bigger house, then your parents and a bigger car, and you will be more successful. And and the whole economy was pushed on it. You you are amazing. You can do everything you want. The American dream idea, right? You are so amazing because you're born here. The only thing you have to do is do a job and work hard. Even the study you can drop, you know, just just work for it and go for your own success. An anti-hero is busy with themselves. A hero, traditional superhero, is still busy with the society, you know. Um the the new hero, he, she or them who doesn't know, who doesn't believe that life is equal or fair or just comes falling in your lap because you're born in the right family, is is a person that knows life is searching, life is not easy, but life has way more beautiful moments than you think of, especially if you combine it with nature or with each other. Um so, but you don't know, you don't have control over everything. I think the narrative that you control everything is something that really hurts me because so many people are uh now being told the lie of you can control everything, your own happiness, your body, you can control it, and if you control it, you will be happy and successful. I don't believe in that. I believe in you can control a little bit, and for all the rest, you have to search and talk to other people and and and bump against the wall and whatever. So a new hero is not afraid to uh face the unknown. And we use creativity and storytelling because we are a bunch of creative people to express that search.

SPEAKER_01 8:46

Sounds also like a very realistic hero, being realistic in that nothing is perfect and that you can't not you can't make everything the way that you want it.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

You are not better than another person or another piece of nature, because you're you're part of it. And the idea that you're not better is very difficult if you live in a very individualistic world where being the best is qualified as being the richest, most lonely person there is on top of a mountain that nobody can reach. I believe that being the best is someone who's uh humble and surrounded by people, by nature, who's who's not afraid to to search and to use creativity. And and if that is a new value system, then I would love it. Because then there would be less burnouts, less loneliness, and more people that instead of being striving something they will never be, can just be.

SPEAKER_01 9:37

Wonderful. We're getting so uh deeper philosophical so early in the conversation already, but I think this gives us a lot to continue, to continue on. So going back to your company, uh I just mentioned there is possible futures and biobased creations. Today we'll focus a bit more on biobased creations, but just for people to understand with possible futures, this is actually also what you're doing with that studio is that you're um exploring these societal questions about possible futures and how we live together, driving social change, uh, talking about changing existing systems.

SPEAKER_00 10:11

But these are more projects in the lines of uh workshops, presentations, films and and theater shows about new democracy, equality, uh future thinking. So the topics are more uh what you say social and societal and philosophical, but the the means on both studios, we use all disciplines. So we use filmmaking, we use uh documentary, we use podcasts, we use installations, and so on. Everything we need to involve an audience in the search or the story that we want to help them with. Great.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

And then there's biobased creations. Um and I love to talk uh about that with you. Bio-based creations turns these ideas in more practical and tangible projects, um, meaning, and I'm gonna quote this just so that I can get it right. It is a creative studio that specializes in installations, projects, and storytelling about the transition towards a regenerative and circular world.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:06

Okay, well, I'm glad you say yes because I got that from your website.

SPEAKER_00 11:09

So you agree.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

Um with bio-based creations, just so that everyone understands what we're talking about. Um, this is bio-based as opposed to fossil-based. Is that how we see it? And then what is the basis in this bio-based? What is bio in this case?

SPEAKER_00 11:30

Um the whole ecosystem that we live in. So I think we we say we focused, we started with the construction world, the agriculture world, and the um placemaking world. Like what what like like how are we gonna um organize the future of our land, right? Because we we we have not enough space and so many ideas. But um, well, for us, a regenerative ecosystem means that a man, nature, animals, uh, but also uh water, uh, soil, air, that you live in an ecosystem that you respect and that you give back to, like the ecosystem of nature is organized, by the way, uh, and we not try to um put our ego first and just destroy it for our own gains. So we really try everything we do within biobased creations, all the installations, all the work, all the research, because it's a lot of research we do, um, is always about how can we go towards that regenerative ecosystem, uh, but we make it super practical. So not just dreaming, also really um involving real big construction companies or real uh farmers, real uh policy makers, societies in thinking about that. Because otherwise, I'm just an artist that dreams and it's great for me. And then people come and say, Yeah, but now the reality hits you, and I'm like, okay, let's work with that reality towards what could be possible. And that has been a blast to do so the last few years.

SPEAKER_01 12:55

Yeah. Uh I want to talk about a few projects of yours in a little bit, but maybe you're already now talking about construction workers and builders. Can you explain to me how it is that that you work? Do you proactively start one of these tangible projects, or do you have a client that has a question and then you start working or collaborating together? Where does a project for you start?

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Um, apart from the answer everywhere, I think there are three main uh ways. Either we come up with an idea that we really want to do. For example, we wanted to build a house made of biobased materials to showcase that we can already do so much. That was 2021, where we build a house out of 100 biobased materials. We had that idea, then we found a partner that wanted to expose, I mean, to showcase it, and then we had to search for 100 partners in materials for builders and so on. So I did thousands of presentations to companies. I got a lot of no's, and luckily enough yeses. Sometimes uh organizations call us, and then we always say they come with a question, and our job is then to understand what is the question under the question, because they can say something like, Can you build us something that looks nice about the blah, blah, blah? And then, of course, we always say, maybe, maybe let's first talk what you really want to say, what is what is underlying, and then we work on the underlying question. And sometimes it's of course a combination of the two. Because uh in the past so many years that we're working, the whole company exists 18 years, buy-based creation seven years. In those seven years, we we've worked with so many different companies that we know some of them very well. Some some of them are very big, large, some of them are very family-owned, and they have future wishes. So, what we do is we bring them together once a month, we talk with them and try to understand if our vision and their wishes um are aligned, and then it's easier to start a project. So one, two, and three happen at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

And these are all uh partners that also want to work on a bio-based future when it comes to using their materials.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

They want to work on a uh regenerative, they want to work towards a regenerative world. Some of them are already super far, some of them are, I mean, very large building. We only work with companies, by the way, that don't have shareholders. So companies that are family-owned, or companies that are uh steward-owned, or companies that are uh uh reusing their profit for the good of society. So, so so but but still many of them are pretty large, right? Thousands of employees. So not all of them are already uh 100% there, which is no problem for us because by the way, we don't know what a perfect regenerative world looks like. I think we will never know. It's it's the the search for it and trying to understand what holds us back and trying to understand what we do now. I think that is the the the great thing of this search. And we work with researchers, we work with uh governments, cities, or our national governments, festivals, but also with big companies. I love that because they they strive and they can have huge impact if they change just a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

And this is the new hero mentality, right? That you don't know, and we're all making an effort to work towards something that is regenerative without knowing what that exactly is or what it can look like.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

Yeah. If I know what it is, then I will I will then I'm the imposer. Then I say this is what you have to do, otherwise you're losers, and then I'm I'm as bad as the people I I try to change.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

Yeah. But you do make examples of what it could look like. For example, this building that you that you just described, and this is the exploded view behind building, yeah. What you were talking about, right? Uh can you walk me through? I have seen it, so I know this, but for someone that doesn't know the building, what do you see when you enter this building?

SPEAKER_00 16:50

I really like Daphne when you say we show possibilities. So we don't say this is the truth, but we have a building world, for example, where we use materials that are not uh helping nature or our own health or anyone, actually, except for a few companies with shareholders. But we use them because we thought they were good. Now we realize they are not. It's okay. We learn, but we have to change, right? We have to change the materials. What can we do? And then often it stops because people cannot imagine what is possible differently. So what we thought was there's so much going on already, but it's not on people's eye. Why don't we create a house? Because people know what a house is, with all these materials as walls and as ceilings, but in frames like paintings. So you have an exhibition of materials, but together they form a house. So what you look at is a house with a roof and two floors. You come in, there's a kitchen completely made of biobased materials, there's a uh a bathroom completely made of biobased materials, there's a bedroom. So typical rooms. But the great thing is every material you can touch, you can scan, you see who made it, what is it made of, what does it do, where can I buy it? Is it already for sale now or not? We have actors, we call them storytellers, but they are trained actors that guide you through the house, let you lie on the bed, let you feel the walls and the ceilings, let you understand what it means, what do we need from farmers if we want to live differently? What do you feel health-wise if we want to live differently? They don't say it's the this you have to do, because it's 100 materials. They do say if we want to build differently today, we can already. We can build with different materials and we show what is possible. And the funny thing was that we had almost 1 million visitors in the house over the course of the existence of this house, 950,000, but let's say 1 million because it sounds cooler. And the great thing is it's not just passerbys or people that come to the festivals where it was, it was also policymakers, ministers, and building companies that came with their CEOs, uh negative, cynical, before they entered, and then just we didn't even have to say anything because standing there and feeling the energy of the house, which sounds super vague and tree hugging-wise, but it's not. It is you feel it, you can touch it. And people fell in love with the materials. And instead of saying, Oh, new things, I don't understand it, they said, like, whoa, this is sexy. Can I buy it? Where can I find it? And then we said, Yes, this is a healthier house, but it's 5% more expensive. So, what do you want? Do you want an unhealthy house and then you save 5%? Or do you want a healthy house, but that is 5% more expensive? And all the materials that you see, you can reuse after 20 or 40 years and they keep their value. What do you want? So everybody said, Yeah, I want a healthier house. Come on, the 5%, I don't care. But if you tell people you can have a new house that is good for nature and it's 5 to 10% more expensive, people say, no, no, no, no, no. That's too expensive. So we changed the way we talk about it, and we made people feel immersively, we made it feel, maybe we made them feel it. And we had the actors who could really talk them up. And somehow that had such a huge impact because then suddenly we were invited to speak everywhere and to lead brainstorms. Like, if we want to implement this, what does it mean? And um, yeah, this is for me a great example of imagine what could be possible, but please make it sexy. Don't make it pointing with your finger, don't make it say, oh, all the bad people use the bad materials because to be honest. It's now our generation has to do it differently because we cannot afford to do it in the bad way anymore. It's not because we are so amazing and had a great insight and are super morally good. We are as bad and as stupid as every generation before us. But we are living in a great time. That is that we are a crisis because we can't continue the way we did. So let's try to be collective about what we can change instead of being arrogant.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

Do you find that this crisis that you call it that that is also a chance for opportunity?

SPEAKER_00 21:06

Um the Greek word for crisis is krise, which means a time of change. So not a time of everything goes to shit. But uh yes, so yes, a lot of opportunities. The question is what way do we go to? Because we are so used to our values of uh individuality and profit, profit, profit, and we have to be efficient and risk avoidance because we have to make as much profit. This is so deep in everything we do that if we are using these new opportunities of working with nature, of being regenerative, of being circular, all these words, blah, blah, blah. I always like to say a circular economy can be as shitty as a linear, it's just in a circle. That's the difference. So a linear economy now is super excluding. The difference between rich and poor are growing against uh again. Sorry, if you're on the top, you're the good ones, and if you're on the bottom, you're Losers. So people say to me, Oh, but they're gonna be a circular economy, then nobody's on the top and nobody's on the bottom. And I say it depends on what circle you get into. So you can there are gonna be many circles. So it can be as exclusive as lean economy, but it can also be more inviting and more equal and more regenerative. So we this we we the people decide are co-creators of the unknown. So that means circular economy will be coming because it's more cheap in the future, the coming years. This is what the European Central Bank calculated. It is cheaper to go to a circular green economy than not, but to make it a fair one, a regenerative one, a nice one, we all have to do our best to do that.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

And to have maybe an overlap in these different circles that are going within their own circular systems. That it's more collaborative between circles as well. Yeah. Um I'm interested because you were talking about that people found it sexy to be in this house, uh in this living building, because it also speaks to their emotion, maybe that it's not just about the capital, but that it's also about is it good for me? Maybe that part of it's good for me still speaks to um an egocentric thing of it is healthy for me, and that is that is why I will do it. Or do you see them that they also understand it is a healthier building also for nature and not just for me as a person?

SPEAKER_00 23:32

Um good question, difficult one. I don't think people are gonna be less or more egocentric. I think it's what values that we promote is gonna change more our behavior. Um, I don't think we need to change the people because people are all kinds of emotions at the same time. I do believe that creativity, our job as artists, is bringing in the emotion and the uh possible futures and the visions to the game. So we don't do anything new because the inventors and the and the other creatives out there create. And what we do is we make sure that the story is tangible, that you feel the story and the values behind it, and not just rationally know or get the story. So if you feel it, and that's not only in emotions, it's only also in your gut, deep down in your gut, and then you help people. What could actions be? If I feel this, what could my actions be? So not just make them feel and stir them up and then say, Thank you, you're all screwed up, now we're gonna leave, but help them in what pathways are there. Then I think you can change more than if you try to change people's behavior because people are animals and we are cultured, we are altruistic and egocentric all at the same time. So don't try to change people on a rational level, but do show what possible behavior or possibilities are, are and people don't want to be lonely anymore. I don't I think that is something we talk about. A regenerative ecosystem means that you are not lonely anymore. And we are living in the loneliest society ever, and we don't talk about it. We think it's a sort of it's a sort of side effect, but it's the result of the values that we installed 250 years ago with the Enlightenment. And it brought us a lot of wealth and it brought us a lot of technological stuff that we clearly don't need, but okay, it's there, right? But at the same time, it made us lonely as hell. And that's why I'm fighting for I'm not fighting for new world order, I'm fighting for less loneliness.

SPEAKER_01 25:39

Okay. And I this is the second time I hear you talking about the loneliness. So I understand that this is a very important value for you that we collaborate more and that it's um that we're being more collective in our choices and in our actions. I I want to go back just a little bit of what you were saying just now, that we need to talk about the emotions and that you as creatives have the skill to do that. Uh, can I bridge now to what I mentioned in my uh introduction to something that you call artistic intelligence? Is that what you mean by that? Can you walk me through what this actually is? Also, because you just mentioned technology and then versus emotion, artistic intelligence, AI, and artificial intelligence. Show us the difference and why it's important.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

I will try. I will try. First of all, I'm not against uh technology or AI. I there are means that we can use to an end. The question is what is our end? What is our goal? What is our values? Um, artistic intelligence is that you use for your questions that you have, and everyone or every organization has questions, like how are we going to do this, or where do we go from here, or what is gonna happen, is that you not only try to solve it just rationally or uh with pure technological innovation like we try to do now, or more product innovation, is that you try to use it on an artistic way. That means that you're open in your search. So artistic intelligence is not only make it pretty at the end, what we have now, not just aesthetically pleasing. Voila. So artists are often asked to make it pretty at the end, aesthetically, or make a nice music moment of it, and then we feel it in our guts, and then you're gone. Artistic intelligence means that from the beginning of a wicked problem, you use creativity as a way to deal with the fact that what you don't know yet, and how are we going to involve the people that are dealing with the wicked problem, or how are we gonna make coalitions from the people that you need? So, for example, if you have a problem that you can't solve alone, you need to ask questions. How do you do that? Artistic intelligence, how do you really ask questions on a very good level? It's creativity, right? Because you need to open up your mind. Because you say normally we know how this works, but now we don't. Oh my god, how do we do this? There already it starts where creatives can help. And I can give examples later that we we do this. Our job is to help organizations or companies, even a taxpaying company from Holland. We help them with thinking differently, we help them with breaking open their own system and culture. That's part one. Part two is how are we gonna uh work together on solving or finding an answer that we don't know yet? So, how do we bring a group together? You can hire an EY consultant for 1,000 euros per hour, and he or she or them will use AI and tell you you have to just cut people and that's it. Uh, but they leave again. Creative stay and are, first of all, way cheaper, but they stay and they are involved. So it's not an outer person who just says this is what you have to do and then leave again. No, it's a a person who helps you through the search, help you how to search. So you need creativity, new work forms, you need insight in psychology, you need to feel with all the levels that you have your head, your heart, your gut. And then you can try to find solutions. When you have solutions, it will be different scenarios. Scenario writing, by the way, is a creative artistic skill. And then you have to try to find a way to translate those scenarios in forms, stories that people can understand, which is an artistic skill, whether it's drawings or film or text or speeches or movies, whatever, it's artistic. And then if you have those artistic products and you show it to people or to employees or so on, how do you get to make sure that they understand what they need to do with it? What can they do with it? Again, an artistic step. So artistic intelligence is from the moment you have the wicked problem until the moment you want to involve an audience, a way of thinking, a way of executing, a way of living. And what we noticed is that when I started as an artist, artists were seen as an independent group of crazy people that are entertaining you in a museum or a theater or on your screen on a Saturday or Friday afternoon, evening, when you have some extra time. That is what artists are. Weird and as a hobby. Maybe a hobby and some super rich, right? But but I I've noticed the past few years that in these times of super uncertainty, you have to learn to deal with uncertainty. You have to learn to deal with something you don't know. So you need creatives because they are specialists in dealing with uncertainty and knowing how to search. And that's why we are not talking anymore with the HR person or the communication person who says we still have some budget. Can you make something pretty? We are now talking with the board of CEOs and directors. Shit, we really need to find something or change something, but we don't know how. And I'm not saying only creatives can do that, but you need a creative mindset, and we call that artistic intelligence.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

Asking the unknown questions or asking the different questions.

SPEAKER_00 30:51

Yeah, and not being afraid to find forms to do this. So, how cool is it that we we got questions like, okay, we need to be more connected with people if we're going to build buildings, but how do we do that? We cannot just build a building and leave anymore. It's impossible. But how do you connect with the neighborhood, with the water, with the plants, with nature? It's so many questions at the same time. You can invite two scientists and they will give you a very scientific answer. And then another scientist will say, Maybe it's different, I don't know. And then they will leave again. And then what? You can make a technical drawing, but you cannot convince people with technical drawings. You cannot involve your own employees in doing things differently with rational texts or now we're gonna do it differently, or KPIs that are changing. People don't feel it. So how do you make people uh part of a change, part of a process? How do you make them a proprietor of it? That is by using creativity. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 31:47

With the idea behind that is that then they are also the people that can actually act on it. So not just telling them what to do, but they understand why they do it or why they should do it or why they even want to do it, and then they will be the ones spreading that message or spreading that word or actions.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

Absolutely, and in the best way they co-created. So they they they were part of the of the scenarios or solutions that they came up with. So I love the word ownership. If I don't feel, and that is for nature itself, if I don't feel ownership, then I'm not gonna care. So if I didn't help plant those trees and those, for example, people want more green in cities, which I love, right? So what you see is our cities being very, very rigorous and they're putting green everywhere. And then the budget of uh maintenance comes, right? And then they say, ooh, the maintenance budget is already very scarce, so um, we have no more money to maintain the greenery in our cities. And then they say maybe the people can do it. Yeah, the people will do it. So we leave it over to the people. Now you're already fucked. I mean, if you didn't involve the people at first hand, they will not care. If if it's not my plant or my garden, then I will just throw trash what you see happening. But they did studies for this. If you involve people at the beginning of the co-creation of their own neighborhood, they take ownership and responsibility of their own neighborhood and you give it to them, then of course they will help maintain it. Even they will make it more pretty and better. But that means that the power balance of government and inhabitants needs to change. And not just in a little project for one plant, but really needs to change. That means that your inhabitants become co-creators of their own neighborhoods and elements, and not just leave it to them and then leave as a government. That is just running away, you know? Yeah, that is what fathers used to do, but they don't do that anymore. It's really making sure that you're there for each other. So and government layer or company layer, whatever, and the people that that are dealing with the project they're talking about together.

SPEAKER_01 33:48

I feel like maybe this asks for an example of a project that you are currently working on, so that people understand that this vision that you have and these ideas that you have, that these also amount to actual projects. Um to actual changes, maybe even. Uh, can we link this to Sponge City, what you are now working on?

SPEAKER_00 34:10

Yeah. Yeah, I I I hope it does. So we have big topics that we try to do, these wicked problems. So we don't know the solutions, but we are searching for it. And one of them, of course, is water. Water is a huge issue. Water is life, and at the same time, too dry, uh too wet, uh, quality of water, you name it. Water is going to be one of the main topics the coming years everywhere in the world, especially in Europe. And in the Netherlands, we said, okay, together with the city of Denbos, and together with this, and this is what I really love. You make a coalition, so it's a city of the Bos, it's the water uh companies and organizations that deal with the water, it's the uh building companies that are active in the boss together, and it's uh civil society organizations. We put them together in one project, and we said, what is the water sponge, the water city of the future? So, how can we make a city be a landscape? Because we now see a city as a sort of stone empire, like a rock, and the water has to be uh outside of that rock, you know, in the in the lands around the city. We say, uh-uh, if you really want to do it right, you can make a city as a sort of mountain landscape that is as a sponge work working, so it has a sponge function. So, how do you do that? Now we have the scientists, they come up with all the solutions. Then we have the people from the city, they say, Oh, we can do this and this and this not. But what I love is then you get the companies who say, Okay, if you want us to do it, we can, but then we need this from you, and then we need to work together here. And then the people from the civil society say, We would like to be involved. How can we do that? So, what we do is we have sessions, we have creative sessions that we actually made together with democracy experts, psychologists, and artists.

SPEAKER_01 35:56

Yeah, sorry, can I just go back one uh one bit? Because um now I'm curious who started this project? Is this you with biobased creations or new heroes that said this is something that we want to research? Or was there a question from outside and then you started this coalition?

SPEAKER_00 36:13

Yeah, very good question. The the answer is again both. So we we we have the topic of water already uh a few years. We did work around that. People saw that. People said, hey, we like it. How could we maybe possibly work together? What would and then we said, let's try to find a causes, a case that really um uh sort of exemplifies all the problems that we have, make it a wicked problem. We found it in Denbos because Denbos is a sort of drain from a whole area, so two provinces, all the water comes together in Denbos. So it's a beautiful example of the effect that all the other lands have on one city if they don't care for their water. And the and the Bos needs to change their whole water system. Then we went to the city of Dan Bos. We said, hey, shall we work together on this? And then after a few months of negotiation, they said, okay, then then then yes, but these are our conditions, and then we we we made a coalition to make the uh concept bigger. So it's a a different, it's all steps together, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:15

Yeah, and then the the wicked problem that you see is mostly about water retention, so keeping the water where you should keep it and then managing where it should go elsewhere.

SPEAKER_00 37:27

Yeah, so flooding and draft. This is and then water quality, but that's linked to it. So this is the issue, and then for a city is how do you contain water on the right moments and let it go away on the on the other right moments? And what we now do, most cities are installed to make water go away as fast as possible. So too hot because there's no way of cooling a city, and when it floods, actually, when the extreme floods are coming and they will be coming more and more, also then the city has big problems because the sewage system is is too old. So so you get a you get all kinds of problems around the current situation, yeah, and people start to feel it, which is the best thing, of course. The moment you start to feel it, you want to change it. Otherwise, it's just scientists shouting in the dark, change it, change it.

SPEAKER_01 38:16

Exactly. Well, it's it's very much what is happening now, right? We have all these extremes coming towards us, so it's extremely important.

SPEAKER_00 38:22

And that and and and the good what I love, and it's a cynical answer, what I love is that it's cost us so much money. And so the people who who hate nature and only think about money because they were, I don't know, bullied as a child, probably, I don't know. But those people, also those people have to change because it's it's costing too much money, and people, and of course, the value of the homes go down and blah, blah, blah. I don't care why they want to change. I love the fact that it's now on the agenda. And then then how do we solve it? And this is interesting. We do these sessions, right? And on a session, we're not only gonna invite 20 scientists because they will argue for five days, and everybody has their own solution and blah, blah, blah, blah. We invite scientists, we invite people from the construction world, we invite people from the policy, neighbors, and so on. So you have a table or tables full of mixed groups of people, all with their knowledge, and we believe in common knowledge. So they share, and there's a whole system how we do these sessions, they share their knowledge, and then they learn from each other. Sometimes they discuss, but then we make different scenarios. We say, okay, these are different points. We make the different scenarios, we use visualizations, so drawers, but professional artists who draw the different visions, and then we try to create.

SPEAKER_01 39:38

I was just going to ask because I think this is the most important difference between you and then the consultant that you were talking about earlier, workshopping things in text and having um flipovers. This this we all know, but you take it a step further because you then visualize it. You work with designers, you uh yeah. Can you explain a little bit and how you how you visualize, because I feel like this is what's it, what is yeah, a very important difference.

SPEAKER_00 40:07

So the the sessions themselves are uh next to rational, also made in such a way that they push the emotion and they push the the guts. So the session itself is is with different uh layers. Um the end result of every session is artistic, so you get drawings, voiceovers, so whatever we need to make sure that the stories are shared, and then the next step is that we create it into uh installations like makete installations. Right. These dreams we build them in 3D on a on a on a level that is easy to watch and to to see, with again uh actors who tell the story, sometimes with things that you can scan, that you can feel, and we use different scales. So we say this is the big scale, this could be then one building, this could be elements of the building. How you how can you make it? This could be if it all works together. So we we call it possible landscapes, so we make different versions, but the great thing is they should be realistic. So we're not gonna do utopias that people say, Yeah, that would be amazing, but it will never happen.

SPEAKER_01 41:13

Yeah, flying cars.

SPEAKER_00 41:14

Yes, well, flying cars actually exist already, but I understand. Yeah, so that everybody loves each other and hugs each other every day, you know? Great, but it it won't happen uh unless MDMR, but but that's not legal in many places. No, but it's so what I love is that you really try to so it's called the Kimono effect. Okay, and this is a scientifically proven effect. And if you allow me, I will shortly explain it. In Japan, there was this professor who wanted to do research on the future of the city where he was working. So with his students, they went out and they did surveys. How do you want your future city and so on and so on? And they didn't like how it was because a lot of people were just thinking about themselves and complaining. The best example was there was a guy with a dog saying, There need to be more place for my dog. The next guy said, I hate dogs, please, less place for dogs. This was the level of the input that people had. So a lot of people would say, People are stupid. Don't ask for their opinions, only work with scientists and professionals. But this professor said, uh-uh-uh. What if we do a game? We invite the same people, also the guy with the dog and the guy who hates dogs. We invite them all together, and we say, now you get this kimono on. We make a ritual with a candle and a gong and everything. You now are a representant for the future. This is a title in Japan, where they take things very seriously. Yeah. You get your you get a kimono, and once you enter the next room, it's 2050. What the question was, now you are part of the community to think of the future of the city. Everybody who got the kimono on dropped their egotistic small thinking and got an open mind. Not all of them, progressive or conservative, but an open mind. So in conservative thinking, they had an open mind, in progressive thinking, an open mind. So they they could place themselves in the position of overview.

SPEAKER_01 43:05

And more thinking for the collective and not just for themselves.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

Yes. And the and this professor said, hmm, would this be now a soul effect? Or is this something that always happens if you give people a role? If you give them a different situation, if you put them out of the mundane world. And then uh seven other universities studied on this, and all seven concluded it works. It's called the kimono effect. So, what we do as artists is we create a uh situation that looks like reality, but it's not. So we take away, for example, an issue of money or politics, we give them a situation, we put them in a in a theater play, as you might say, that really looks like the reality, but with a few things left out. And people love that, they can lose their uh identity as a banker or uh guy who always Hate the government or whatever because they step into our game or world, little world that we make. I think the biggest difference between a consultant from EY, and they can be amazing people as well, but between them, which is in the world now, there's no kimono, it's just what you see is what you get, and the goal is against values of money, money, money, money. Our goal is another value, and we use the artistic intelligence to create worlds and situations where people can be more people instead of just uh their function. And it's very subtle. I think if people would be there and they hear this podcast, they say, Oh, yeah, now that you mentioned, we don't mention too much, but we create it in such a way. So visualization, drawing, uh using other ways to introduce yourselves than just your function, all these little elements help put people outside of their daily thinking and they think as people again. If you make maquettes or installations, people can think, can touch like Marklin. If you have a Marklin world, you become this child again. Right. Why? I don't know why. You look at the trains and the little stage, you go like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? If you look at a real stage, you go like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, a lot of noise and uh steel, but you're smaller. So the we make worlds that you can look at, so it's an overview, and then our actors talking with you, what can this mean? These are different scenarios, but we calculated everything as well. So when people ask rational questions, we can also answer them. And this helps as conversation changes, not as the solution, solution, but as the changing of a conversation and a way of bringing a network together that normally have emotions against each other.

SPEAKER_01 45:39

And also that they can actually imagine these possible futures that you're creating.

SPEAKER_00 45:44

If you cannot imagine it, they will never happen.

SPEAKER_01 45:47

Is this where where there is then an overlap between your two studios of possible futures and bio-based creations?

SPEAKER_00 45:54

Yes, I think the biggest overlap is existing the last two years is that the work we do in our democracy research from Studio Possible Future, so the future of democracy and involvement of citizens, we do a lot of work there. And the changing that are happening in the agricultural world, the construction world, and the landscaping world actually needs so the big changes in water and infrastructure, all these hard worlds. The biggest problem is not innovation. We have tons of innovation. We can change on a technical level every problem we can solve it. So we can change our system tomorrow and we can solve every problem because we have enough money, we have enough inventions, enough tech technology. So that's not the problem. The biggest problem is our interaction with each other and the way we build our system in silos. Like everybody does their own little thing with their own little elements, and really working together, really making new alliances, new new contact, and involving other people than usual or nature, for example, is so difficult because we are not used to it and we didn't learn. We didn't learn to think out of the box, we didn't learn to make alliances because we mistrust people that are could be competition or could we have a power difference? So what we are doing in democracy now, having a new relation between power and citizens, for example, actually is the same thing we need in the transition towards a circular regenerative world. It's how are we searching together? How can we make new forms of coalitions, alliances, contracts? It can be as boring as contracts, amazing. I love it. New contracts, how can we do that? And this is this is uh the exciting topic for the coming years is how to do things together based on new values.

SPEAKER_01 47:44

And with this, you're also maybe exploring the decision-making processes. Is that is that what I'm what I'm seeing there? So these systems and how we decide and how this is normally organized, that that is also what you're hoping to uh to shift.

SPEAKER_00 47:59

But we we have to shift because otherwise it's not sustainable. And when we talk about loneliness, I mean uh uh we we create a lot of loneliness in and for example governments. There's this one guy who has to do circular and seven other different topics, right? And then he can hire as many consultants as they want. They always leave. So you have lonely people in governments, lonely in companies, because they need to have their get their KPIs on profit. And they have there's so many great people in big companies that have these different values and they want to do good for the world and so on, but somehow they are left alone, they cannot form alliances and coalitions, and you can see that on every every level of our society is that we sort of undressed it, made it lonely and naked, and put it away. And my thing is if we put people together, together naked, first of all, then nobody's naked because you are everybody's together naked, so the dress code is naked. And the good thing is then we we can talk as people again. And what we are amazing at as people, more than more animals, is that we can easily adopt new ideas. We are so quick at taking over new ideas. So if we are not afraid to sit together and really think, okay, we can no longer do this. What is possible? Oh my god, we got like pop pop, we can do this, we can do this. Oh yes, then we need to do poop poop and we form new alliances, and we've did we've done this our whole life. We created these amazing constructions and so on. We lost our way a little bit the past hundred years, it can happen, and now there's this new possibility of rethinking how we do this together, not only as people, but with with our surrounding and our ecosystem again. That's amazing. It's not easy, it's like love, difficult, but amazing.

SPEAKER_01 49:41

And this possibility I want to reiterate, you think comes because we are in a crisis and now we have to change. And that is what gives us possibility.

SPEAKER_00 49:49

Good news for all your listeners is it's not because we think it should be different, it's because we can no longer continue the way it was. Yes. So new possibilities.

SPEAKER_01 49:58

I like that. Um, maybe we can quickly bridge this to a book you also wrote. I just I want to ask you just a simple question about this. I know I don't know if it's simple, but uh the book is called Where is It Going and What Can I Do? Or What Can I Do. Um, I don't know how you want to emphasize it.

SPEAKER_00 50:16

No, the I the I will in the book, if you read the book, the I is is not only I, it's we, it's us, it's everyone. But where's it going? What can I do? is like an expression, like, oh my God, where's it going? What can I do? So I I call the book like that. Unfortunately, only in Dutch.

SPEAKER_01 50:30

Okay. No, it is.

SPEAKER_00 50:31

But it's uh a great book.

SPEAKER_01 50:33

Um well, and I want to say that in the description it says that you give us a kick in the butt and a pat on the back. What is the kick and what is the pat?

SPEAKER_00 50:41

The kick in the butt is um uh even no action is action. So you're always involved with life and engaged. So people say no, I stay out of it. That is the choice. So not doing is a form of doing. So the kick in the butt is come on, let's make choices because this is a crisis time, let's make choices for values. The the pat on the back is that I'm showcasing so many possible ways to do this. I'm not saying there's only one way, or if you do it like this, you're the best and the rest are losers. I'm not gonna judge. And my book, I'm giving so many ways of uh what is already happening. So uh people tell me, oh, it gave me so much energy because the the change is happening on so many different levels for the good and the bad. And you can join, you can watch, you can participate, you can lead. You don't have to choose one role. There's no one good or one bad in life, it's not a Disney movie. There are thousands of colors, and whatever you whatever color you're feeling, go for it. If your color is waiting because you're anxious, then you can wait, but then please look up how much energy there's already given, you know, and then you can drink from the energy of others, no problem if you try yourself. If you have energy and you want to go, please go, don't be afraid, because there's no end goal, there's no certainty that we get somewhere, there's only searching. And I'm saying, don't do it alone. That is what I'm saying in the book. You don't have to do it alone. And I think this is the biggest thing that people have the feeling they have to do it alone, they have to be successful alone, they have to carry the whole weight of the world on their shoulders. And first of all, that's impossible. Second of all, if you do it too long, you die or you burn out. But the great thing is you don't have to because the person next to you also can't do it alone. So not don't be afraid to not know, find each other and not know together. Again, love.

SPEAKER_01 52:37

Beautiful. Um, we always end our conversations with asking our guests for a souvenir. I feel like maybe you already gave us a souvenir, but maybe you can think of another one. It could be in action, but it could also be reading a certain book or dive into a theory or love more. I don't know. I'll leave it up to you. But would be your souvenir for us?

SPEAKER_00 52:59

My souvenir is um go to someone you love and hug them for longer than 20 seconds. Okay, it will give you energy, it will give them energy, and then you feel why we are here.

SPEAKER_01 53:09

And then you also feel why we should do things together.

SPEAKER_00 53:12

Yeah, that's I mean, why would you wake up? Because you don't know, and the rest the rest also does know. That is for me the biggest insight. Nobody knows. Not the president, not your father, they don't know, they're just doing stuff. So that means that there's no impossibility. Because if we don't know, let's find it out together. That's the great thing. But hugging or kissing, don't not kiss your partner. Please don't leave your house without kissing your partner. That's the biggest impact you can make, is that you'll be nice to the people around you and that you hug the people you love and that you kiss the special people that you really, really love enough. If you want to do something good for the world, do that. That's the beginning. And the rest, who knows?

SPEAKER_01 53:52

Acknowledge each other. Yeah. Thank you. That's a wonderful souvenir. I want to thank you a lot for all these insights. Yeah. I want to invite everyone to definitely look up your website to see what both the studios do. Uh, also to look into the projects. We only spoke about Sponge City now, which is still in development. We spoke about the building, which people can, I think, still watch. We're working on the show. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:17

Look at look it up online. Look it up online, I would say, and then uh it's traveling, it's always traveling. Yeah. Excellent.

SPEAKER_01 54:23

Thank you so much, Lucas, and good luck with everything.

SPEAKER_00 54:26

Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_01 54:31

Thank you for listening to The Art of Coexistence, a podcast produced by our Cilian publishers, editing by Axel Frumann, music by Mark Omen, and hosted by me, Dr. Fruhmann. Find us on your favorite podcast app and give us a follow, like, subscribe, andor share, and we'll see you again soon.