Episode 11 Blue Stem Natives- Growing a Native Plant Nursery

Kristen Nicholson and Britt Drews are the co-founders of Blue Stem Natives, a 

woman owned native-only nursery based in Norwell, Massachusetts.                 

Since launching in 2021, they’ve been helping gardeners and land stewards 

across New England access high-quality native plants while promoting wildlife-

friendly landscapes, straight-species selections, and sustainable growing 

practices. Their work is rooted in a simple but powerful mission: making native 

plants easier to learn about, easier to buy, and easier to use in everyday 

landscapes.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Welcome to Peace Living Pollinators. The podcast is anything but your typical gardening show. We're here to transform how you see your backyard, balcony, or local park by uncovering the powerful connections between you, your plants, and the planet. From pollinator-friendly gardening hacks to creating green spaces that fight climate change. We explore more than just what to plan. We dig into why it matters. You're listening to Peace, Love, and Pollinators. Hello, everybody, and welcome to Peace, Love and Pollinators. I am your host, Trevor Smith, and I am so excited again for today's episode because we just have banging back-to-back episodes. Kristen Nicholson is our guest today of Blue Stem Natives. Kristen Nicholson and Britt Drews are the co-founder of Blue STEM Natives, a woman-owned, native-only nursery based in Norwell, Massachusetts, since launching in 2021. They have been helping gardeners, land stewards across New England to access high-quality native plants while promoting wildlife-friendly landscapes, straight species selections, and sustainable growing practices. Their work is rooted in a simple but powerful mission, making native plants easier to learn about, easier to buy, and easier to use in everyday landscapes. Why am I excited about this? Because I have been a bacon company since the GoFundMe days, and I have been trying to get them on for quite a while. They are very busy women. And finally I got Kristen to sit down with us. Welcome, Kristen. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:41

Thank you, Trevor. Yeah. Sorry about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

No, this is this is all good. So let's just um let's let's just jump right into this because you know I find what you've done fascinating for a number of different reasons. Um, but the the biggest one is it takes a lot when you just kind of have this idea. And I'd love to kind of hear about the conception between you and Britt, but when you have this idea, it takes a lot. Everybody has ideas, everybody has dreams, but to actually jump into it, to actually make it happen, to follow through and to take that risk. When people talk to me kind of like about what I, you know, what I do, I say, look, you know, being an entrepreneur is kind of like cliff jumping. You basically just need to make sure you clear the rocks and you figure your dive out on the way down. Whether you want a swan, cannonball, whatever it is, but all you have to do is make sure you clear the rocks. So just before we jump all the way into this, can you just tell me a little bit about kind of the start of Bluestem?

SPEAKER_00 2:39

Yeah, absolutely. Um so we started first, first and foremost, we we met each other through Wild Ones, starting Wild Ones. So that's uh for people who may or may not know, Wild Ones is a national native plant landscape organization. And there weren't any chapters in Massachusetts. So Britt wanted to start one. She's from the Midwest, and they have lots of them out there, but none here. And she had put a call out on a Facebook gardening group that she needed some board members to help get this plant group started. I actually knew very, very little about native plants at the time. I had gone back to school. Uh, my kids are grown, and I was trying to figure out the next part of my life. And it was one of those kind of say yes years where I'm like, yeah, sure, I'll help out a new group. And it just turned into like light switch, lifelong passion type of situation. Absolutely loved the people that I met, loved everything about learning native plants and insects and wildlife. Um and so, like, really long story short, we were working on the uh doing a plant sale or a fundraiser for the Wild Ones chapter. And this was in the middle of like the pandemic situation. So we're in Britt's backyard, like 20 feet apart from everybody else. And we were talking about how it was so difficult as a little group with some money to be able to order and source straight species native plants. And that was as an organization. So you're spending a couple thousand dollars, you should be able to, you know, find them pretty easily. And it was challenging. And we were talking about how if it was that hard as an organization with money, um, it's impossible for homeowners. So we kind of like locked eyes across the yard and we're like, huh, that's interesting. They're like, I wonder if we could fix that. It was it literally started just like that. It was like, see a problem, fix it. And I don't know if you've ever met any stubborn women in your life, but we are two stubborn women, so we don't let anything get in the way, really.

SPEAKER_01 5:02

Over stubborn.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Yeah, yeah. We don't let anything get in the way.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

That is our bad. That's just the per that's the perfect story, and that's where all great things, you know, are born. You know, what I'm loving about this episode is a number of things. You know, it's the entrepreneurial aspect, it's the woman-owned business aspect, because it's just, you know, I as I as I say to people, you know, when I'm teaching, you know, vote with your dollars. And if you can support, you know, small businesses, small and local, if you can support minority-owned and women-owned businesses, you know, it's it's what you should do if that if that's what you believe in, you know, and I I think it's important. Um, just kind of, you kind of already answered the you know, the question a little bit, you know, but you know, what was the gap? And you said it was it was kind of the you know, the availability of native plants, but it that's pretty much what made you say blue stem right now was just realizing that there's a huge gap in the native plant kind of availability market to, you know, to homeowners and you know, landscapers alike. And that was that was kind of the antithesis. So from there, what I found interesting and what I really respect is that you're committed so much to straight species rather than native ours and cultivars. Now, why does this distinction matter? And what do you wish more people understood kind of about this commitment? Because there's ton natives is like becoming a thing. Native plants are, you know, everywhere. And I have a whole section in one of my presentations with the distinctions of, you know, straight species, you know, native ours, you know, native select, etc. So why the commitment to straight species?

SPEAKER_00 6:48

Yeah, I mean, exactly what you say. You can find native cultivars pretty much everywhere. It's usually that like corner of the garden centers where like, oh, here's the native plants. So you can find some, and it's usually like the purple echinacea and uh and the you know the general well-known plants, some cardinal flower, whatever. But uh, we decided to go pretty hard on the straight species. Um mostly because it it's not something easily found. And we were told so much that it was not going to be a viable business decision. It was a terrible business decision. Um, you can't make any money selling straight species plants, and that's not true. Um, but basically it was we found a massive hole in the market, and we decided to fill it. You know, we are pretty much I feel pretty confident in saying we're the we have the largest selection of straight species native plants, at least on the um, you know, southeast Massachusetts, if not most of Massachusetts. Um and it's just it was easy for us to kind of lean into that. We find it um more beneficial uh to have straight species plants, uh, environmentally speaking. We want that genetic diversity, it's so important as far as the business side of things. Could we make more money uh selling cultivars? Yeah, there's that in horticultural world, that's where the money is made is through um cultivation. So trademarks and cultivation, but that's not why we started all this. So um, yeah, we just decided to lean in and go full in. Um we don't want to disparize.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

At least in in my world, in my community, like you're on the lips of many people because we can't find, as native plant designers, we can't find those straight species. We can't, you know, we can't find all that. So it's just the fact that you kind of took the hard road and stuck to it is just is is totally admirable. It's just it's just that's what we do. I just think it's awesome. And people say, have you heard? Have you heard? Yeah. I'm like, yeah, yeah, it's it's absolutely awesome. The other piece though, you you emphasize is using ecotypic seed whenever possible. And this is this is another big thing because when I teach, you know, especially like homeowners and even you know, new landscapers about ecotypes, they're like, Well, this is the only thing I need. Now it's it's still hard to find ecotypic seed only, but you know, you're you're emphasizing that. You know, so can you explain, I guess, you know, really what ecotypic seed is, or you know, what ecotypes are, and you know, why they matter as far as resilience, habitat value, and kind of like long-term ecological success.

SPEAKER_00 9:51

Sure. Well, so you know, eco, you start with ecoregions, and that's different from grow regions. So it's not talking about hardiness so much, it's talking about what's, oh my dog in the background. Um, it's talking about what has grown here alongside wildlife for millennia, right? Um, it it has this essential value. These plants um are so well adjusted to our climate right here. Um it could be, you know, it's close down to a county. And these plants have been here, they've survived all kinds of uh, you know, catastrophic events. It can handle the hydrology, the geology, the wildlife. Um it is insanely difficult to find ecotypic seed. And we're trying to work really hard to expand that. We do have a seed farm that we're trying to um expand so that we can provide again, see a whole fix it, um, fill that need. Um and so it's, you know, we just believe that it they grow healthier plants, more resilient plants, more resilient gardens. We're trying to help the wildlife that is here now. Uh we try not to get in the weeds, so to speak, about, you know, well, with climate change, things migrating north, we should plant things from the south. Yeah, no, that's we're all set with that. We just do what needs to be done right now.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

Yep, totally. And, you know, that's that's one of the things. I mean, like when the new hardened zone map uh came out, one of the things that I spoke about was everybody got excited. Like the designers I worked with all got excited. They're like, oh, new plant palette, this is awesome. And I was just like, hold on. Because if we get so excited that we start using this new plant palette, who's gonna starve on the other end, you know, when things come out of balance? I'm not against helping plants migrate north because climate's changing faster than plants can move. However, you know, I totally agree, you know, agree with, you know, and again, respect just you doubling down on, all right, we're gonna go with the, you know, with this ecoregion and everything else. So you you said you're starting farmers' plots or what's what's happening.

SPEAKER_00 12:08

We do. We have a seed farm uh conservation land in Norwell. And we've had that for a few years now. We've been expanding it slowly because we're really particular about the seeds that we put in there. We get um, you know, some we wild collection from a few areas that we've given been given permission from conservation commissions to collect from. Uh some private landowners have given us permission to collect on their land. So we we're keeping really close eye on the provenance of things. Um and just like that seed farm is it's it's as local as it gets. And it's uh we're really excited about it.

SPEAKER_01 12:50

That's I mean, it's it's what we need, and it's what the market, it's what the market needs. One of the other decisions that you made, again, totally respect, is your commitment to peat-free growing, because so many of the mixes, so many of the cheap mixes, you know, and everything else all contain peat. So again, like you set you set your mission, you know, and you're really living by it. But where, like, what made you make that decision and kind of how does that play into, you know, just all the values that you've been talking about?

SPEAKER_00 13:24

Yeah, so you know, our everything starts with our concern for these ecosystems. And wetlands are one of the most important ecosystems that are around. And even though, you know, we're not collecting peat from wetlands in this area, they're coming from somewhere. Most of it's from Canada.

SPEAKER_03 13:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:46

And uh mining for peat is massively degrading to wetland systems, to peat bogs. And um, and I know it's definitely gotten better over the years. I'm not saying that it's you know awfully evil and and it hasn't improved, it has, but it takes thousands of years to create like an inch of peat and we strip it and mine it, you know, outrageously. So it's just another one of those things that we it was what we wanted in our own yard. It's what we wanted for our own growing practices. So we figured if we want it, then other people probably want it, and we can't find it anywhere else. So why not provide it? Yep. And that's really been the basis of every decision we make. If that's what we want, then other people probably want the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

Totally. It's just it's it's just another one of those things, like opting out of native ours, opting out of Pete. Like you're you from a business perspective, you're stacking stacking the deck against yourself. But it's true. I but it's it's one of the things that I think is great because you're like, it's not going to be easy. We're making this harder for ourselves, but we're just going to double down and make this happen, which leads me to my next one that I totally respect. You, as a practice, avoid synthetic fertilizers, pesticides, you know, and in a nursery setting, when you're growing plants for people, aesthetics are everything. Your crop is everything. So, you know, how do you stay true to that philosophy? Like, how do you stay, you know, because again, it's just one more, you know, one more thing that you're you're putting against yourself, but it falls in line with the mission that you stated in the beginning. So, you know, how do you justify like where did that come from? Because your entire business is based on healthy plants, is based on healthy crops. So, what made you go fertilizer and pesticide free?

SPEAKER_00 15:46

Yeah, so uh right back, same answer. It's what we wanted in our own yards. Um we mitigated a little bit. We sell our plants on the smaller side. We try to most of like the great majority of our plants are in quarts. Um, you know, some gallons and woody things are in gallons, but for the most part, we sell small. And it's a lot easier to keep plants healthy when we're not pushing them to be giant, full pot too fast. Um a lot of it comes down to educating on the scene. Uh I talk my horse most days to people because you know they'll see this tiny little plant and I'll be like, okay, but put it in the ground. And I swear it's gonna be massive, really fast. So uh it does, we've built trust with our customers. Our customers trust us. Um, and if they have problems, they come and talk to us and we figure out a solution. It could be maybe it wasn't planted in quite the right conditions. Um, and so they had some trouble with it. And you know, a lot of times I'll tell people, yeah, there are aphids on that plant. But if you give it a couple of days, I bet you'll see some ladybugs and some birds come and clean them up for you. So just giving people really simple education and options helps a ton. And some of it has just mean you take a few steps back and all of a sudden you don't see those anymore.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

And it's no double marks or anything.

SPEAKER_00 17:19

You don't see it, yeah. And then if you see, you know, holes that we love holes in leaves, you know, we get excited. So that's um, I think when people it's it's contagious when people see how excited I get because I see a new caterpillar eating a leaf, they're like, oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

And so something's eating your plant. Yes, it's working.

SPEAKER_03 17:44

Yay!

SPEAKER_01 17:45

Totally, totally. That's no, that's that's awesome. And you like you like you said a couple times in the in that response, education is everything. Like we have this huge paradigm shift that has to happen with how people shop plants, how people view lawns, you know, just how people view trees, like all of it. I mean, I can jump into any any single one of those topics, but it really is, you know, just educating people that yes, you are purchasing this plant. Yes, it's an investment, but it is supposed to be a part of an ecosystem. It is supposed to be nibbled. If nothing's eating your garden, something is wrong. So correct.

SPEAKER_00 18:25

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 18:27

So a lot of people I've found, and I'm sure you have too, you know, really want to do the right thing ecologically, you know, but they all feel overwhelmed. So, what are the biggest mistakes beginners make with native plants and where should they start instead?

SPEAKER_00 18:46

I think the biggest newbie mistake is going hard in. And I get it, you know, we get excited and we want to make all the changes right now. And uh it gets overwhelming and out of control very quickly. And then, you know, you're getting all these plants, you're very excited about it. You want to see all the birds and the butterflies and everything else uh hitting your yard. Um, but then you get everything planted and that it's just not it just sits there for a couple of years while everything establishes. So uh I really recommend people start small. I like to use pallets as a good kind of almost like training wheels. Like start with a couple pallet sizes, uh do a couple like four by four or six by six plot and fill that plot to the brim. Like just fill it up and and let things grow for a couple of years and you know, poke around it and see how you like it. So I really encourage starting small and not going hardcore. I also tell people to not get too wrapped up in being perfect. We all have plants that we have connections with that you know, you I love dahlias. Man, you can pry dahlias out of my hands when I'm dead because I love them. Um there's no reason why you can't have dahlias in your yard. Um and there's plenty of plants that we can add to we can have in our yard and not feel bad about it. Um, and I tell people, you know, they're like, oh, my garden's full. I'm like, the heck it is. There's always room for more plants.

SPEAKER_01 20:34

Can you see mulch?

SPEAKER_00 20:35

It's not full. Yeah, there's there's no full, there's no such thing as full. So you can always add more. And it's just, it's one of those things like start small, learn the plants as you go, and then yeah, not get too in your head about it.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

And I to I totally agree with you. That's definitely, I would have to agree with with with like a little with a little extra. I feel like people approach native plants like they approach like a new diet or something. Like they throw out all their, they throw out hundreds of dollars of groceries because they're starting a new diet and they can't have anything, you know, and then they make themselves miserable because they really want, I don't know what that is, just like you said, Dahlia's, they might really want and they totally deny themselves and they feel it's like, and then the and then the plant shaming, like there shouldn't be any guilt. You know, I've got it on here before. I say to people all the time like the biggest win for me is to get you out in your garden and appreciate. I don't care if you have one native plant on your property, get into your garden and interact with nature. After that, we can change your plant palette and we can get you to appreciate natives. But I feel like the hardest lift for us is to get people outside and connecting with nature again. You know, but like you said, it's just like don't throw everything out. And I've known plenty of people who do that. They tear everything out that's non native and start from scratch. I'm like, that's that's a heavy lift. It's an Expensive lift, you know, and it's a lot of work. You just create a lot of maintenance for yourself. Where if you go a little bit at a time, you know, you'll get to know it. The other piece is people, I find people jump all in on natives and they just buy up natives without actually even looking at their property. So like they could have a totally, you know, dry property and they're pulling in all these like moist loving natives or vice versa. You know, but just because it says native, you know, they're they're getting it and it doesn't necessarily mean it's for your site. So that is like the other, you know, kind of newbie mistake I find people make. They just get so excited because the tag says native or because they were at Blue Stem and they're just like, oh, I'm buying everything.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

They're excited. Yeah. I cringe at, you know, a lot of the online conversations. You know, people they mean well and they get really excited about about things and passionate, and I get it. But I just when they when you go hard and you take that black and white, like that hard line, and you start shaming people or saying they're you're wrong, you're wrong. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no. Now you've just pushed them away and you've we've lost that opportunity to to grab more people. So I I my philosophy is to meet people where they are. I know what they enjoy, how they enjoy using their yard, what they want for their future, and and work in work it into that. Because I don't feel like we still need to be able to enjoy our spaces and we need to be able to use our spaces. So it's kind of like like the lawn situation. Everyone's like, no, I want no turf grass. I go, okay, but do you have kids and a dog? Yeah. Then that's not realistic.

SPEAKER_02 23:36

Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:36

Because they're like, what native plants can I put in instead of lawn? I'm like, none. Like, there's no native plant that can stand up to a dog running around in crazy, like no, or you know, or just not real feasible.

SPEAKER_01 23:51

Yeah, you know, whatever it is. I mean, turf grass has its place. It has its place. You know, yeah. And I, you know, I tell people it's a great gathering spot, it's a great playing spot. It's also a great way for you to interact with your garden without actually you know, standing.

SPEAKER_00 24:04

We just have way too much of it.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 24:07

Just too much.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

Exactly. There's just too much going on. Um just go ahead and just change like a little bit because just as far as blue stem's concerned, um you serve like everybody. You know, you have homeowners, you have landscapers, you have municipalities, you have to be.

SPEAKER_00 24:28

Yeah, that's really exciting.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

So, like, how do these audiences differ, you know, from you know what they need, and where do you see the biggest opportunity for change is? Because that's a broad audience. Like passionate homeowners, okay, passionate designers like myself, okay. Now municipalities, which is very cool, you know, are have found you and are starting to get interested, but they're all very different audiences. So, like, how are how are they different? You know, and and where are the biggest opportunities for change there?

SPEAKER_00 25:00

Yeah, so we started with the main focus has always been homeowners. That's it's always been retail homeowners because they were the ones in most need. Um, you know, just like as an organization, municipalities and landscapers could always order large quantities from the wholesalers, and they still can. So they're not our primary focus. It's 100% homeowners and retail customers. Um that's really why we focus on smaller plants too. Uh again, it goes back to that education because people want to come in and buy the already in bloom, and we're like, no, no, buy more of the small plants and you can have a bigger bang for your buck. So we have a pretty small footprint. Um, like if you look at our website, it looks like we're a huge operation, and we're not. We have like uh less than a quarter of an acre that we're on, and we have a massive greenhouse on like a third of that. So we grow really intensively. But we have to focus our growing on the plants that are best suited for smaller landscapes. We grow in quantities that you know, most municipalities and landscapers are are wanting hundreds of plants, hundreds of each species, and we just can't do that. So we focus more on the plants that they can't easily get wholesalers. So if we're seeing, you know, pinelands is growing this, this, and this, but they're not growing this, then we know that there's a hole there. So we are like, okay, we'll grow that. And a lot of it is, you know, those wholesale nurseries are like, well, maybe that's not profitable. Like, okay, but the landscapers are looking for it. So is it not profitable or is it just not something that you you're used to growing? Right. So I guess we've been really good at finding holes in the market and filling them. I think our biggest thing now is expanding our reach without expanding our footprint, is the biggest challenge that we're we're facing right now. We get a lot of calls for like, do you deliver? Yeah, and can you come to our garden club and sell plants and all those things? So we are working on that.

SPEAKER_01 27:32

It's tough to be successful, and there you go. Like, how did you you stack the deck against yourself, but then by double down on that, and you did an amazing job. And as you said, you found all the holes. The two of you really have this knack for finding holes in the market because it's absolutely true. And looking at your availability list and your grow lists, you know, it's all the things that you're not gonna find, you know, any anywhere else. Now, of course, as a designer, I would love to put in my order for thousands of plugs and and quartz with you. However, I get it. So I, you know, focus, focus on on the ones, you know, that I can't find elsewhere. And to me, that's awesome because that, you know, when I have a when I'm doing a design, there's the aesthetic part of it, but there's also the ecological ecological niche that I'm trying to fill. And I find holes in that niche. So like it's just great, you know, to be able to fill those holes and not have to kind of put up a Swiss cheese landscape, you know, that looks great, but it doesn't necessarily fill all the gaps that I'm looking to fill. So I think it's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 28:41

And eventually, you know, would we love to do both really well? Absolutely. But wholesale and retail are two very different businesses.

SPEAKER_01 28:50

Huge differences.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

And so huge, huge differences. So it's like we do we provide for landscapers and municipalities? Yes, definitely not our focus. That's like a side hustle almost because you know, they'll come to us, they'll tell us what we need what they need, and we'll be like, Well, we can give you this. So it's up to you. And it works out for for everybody.

SPEAKER_01 29:14

Well, it's certain it certainly does. And again, to be successful, and this is you know, pointing out as an entrepreneur, these are the keys to your success. To be successful, you found what you were good at, and instead of trying to be everything to everybody, you're like, we're gonna be really good at this. You know, even though it may be tempting to try to be everything to everybody else, you know, that could actually, you know, shoot you in the foot. Whereas, you know, you found what you were good at, and you're like I said, you're also really good at finding the holes, and you just kind of stuck with that, you know, and it's you know, and it's working. So when people are discussing natives and anybody listening to that, kind of thinking about natives, people will be thinking about native plants, and some people think about native plants for beauty, and some people think about native plants for like habitat choice. Why does it have to be one or the other and why can't it be both?

SPEAKER_00 30:08

Oh, it could 100% be both. Absolutely, it can be both. I think a lot of it has to do with kind of reframing what we think gardens should look like and what they have to look like. Um, we've been conditioned to have this like puritanical, you know, what was it, European weird garden situation in the New England area. We have we feel like we have to have this aesthetic certain aesthetic um to be beautiful. And I think there's this feeling that you know, we don't want our yards to be quote unquote messy uh or unkempt. And um native plants have had that rep as being too wild looking. And I think a lot of that comes back to some misinformation too. You know, people are like, oh, native plants, they're easy, no maintenance. That's a load, right? Because no garden is no maintenance. Like that's stupid. Because it's a good thing because it's a garden.

SPEAKER_01 31:14

If it's no maintenance, then it's actual wildland and not your garden.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

Yeah, exactly. So I just laugh when people say low, low maintenance. I'm like, oh, okay. Um I think uh that comes down to okay, then let's find exactly what your conditions are. Let's find exactly the plants are best suited for that, and then fill the heck out of that space. People run into, you know, not native plants looking messy because they're not putting in enough plants. They're, you know, two things are spaced out and they flop over and uh they bloom for short periods and then they go to seed, and they think that that looks messy or are out of place, and it's so the opposite. So when I do presentations, I talk about that a lot about reframing what those gardens are supposed to look like and what beauty really is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:13

They're going to flop. They've they've adapted to lean on their friends. You know, it's yeah, it's it's it's really, you know, how that goes.

SPEAKER_00 32:22

Yeah, masses, massing, massing, massing.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

It also nomenclature doesn't help because the majority of native plants end in weed.

SPEAKER_00 32:28

Weed, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

I know, you know, it's just it they it doesn't, it certainly doesn't help because you know you don't want your garden to look weedy, and yet everything that you're putting in your garden ends in weed.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

So weed, yeah. We've been trying to kind of re-change up some names. One of it's like swamp milkweed. Well, geez, nobody wants to put something called swamp milkweed in the yard, but it's one of those beautiful plants. Yeah, and we're like, how about rose milkweed? That sounds nicer. So just simple naming can definitely help. But yeah, fill your garden, keep adding more, and that helps.

SPEAKER_01 33:06

Absolutely one of my favorite plants to use, too. So I'm glad you chose that one.

SPEAKER_00 33:10

So great. It's so great. We sell a lot of it.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

So, from a business perspective, what are the biggest challenges in growing a native-only nursery when the demand is high, supply is what it is, education is what it is that we've talked about. These are basically probably all of the challenges, you know, and you know, infrastructure and everything is still catching up, you know, from peat-free, like like all of it. Like where what are the challenges and what you know, what needs to happen as far as education, as far as supply and demand, as far as the infrastructure infrastructure, and like I said, and education that support natives. Like, where do the changes, where are the biggest holes? Because you're really good at finding that, and what are the biggest changes that need to happen to to make this native plant trend, if you want to call it that, which is just unfortunate. But what is it, what needs to change to make that successful? And what are the biggest challenges you're facing?

SPEAKER_00 34:12

Again, I think the reach is something that we're we're facing down right now. I feel like we've I feel like we've saturated our area, but there's still people that come in and they're like, oh, I had no idea you were here. I had never heard of you. And I'm like, really? Seems crazy to me because we're busy. We're really busy. Um we have people like knocking down the door at the end of April. When are you opening? Like, oh, not yet. Um I think, yeah, education, 100%. The reason why we, I feel we were so successful is we really hit that wave, you know, the pandemic. We were all watching webinars, watching Doug Talamy. And, you know, that was kind of the impetus of why we started because everyone's like, this is amazing. Where do I get these plants? And we're like, ding. And that's how we started. We literally started in the middle of the pandemic. So um that was a huge, huge wave. And I think that just needs to continue. I love the state getting involved, you know. Um I always mess up the name of it, but the new um, the new commission she just started um is is so important. And I think as a state, Massachusetts has been really heading there. It's not perfect, but definitely heading in the right direction. We have a lot of towns that are going, you know, more native-only plantings. And I think the more people hear about it and tell people, build their gardens up so that their neighbors see it is really like that's the key. I think, you know, it's one thing to see plants in an in a botanical garden or like in some, you know, master gardener's exquisite landscape. And it's another one to just be in someone's yard and you're like, oh, this looks really pleasant and lovely. What are these plants? And it's like you're you're introduced to a whole new world or birders. You know, my parents love bird watching. They have all these bird feeders set up. I'm like, wow, plant, these other plants, and you don't have to go out and add the bird feeders all the time.

SPEAKER_01 36:23

Right.

SPEAKER_00 36:24

The money you save on bird seed, you can invest in put them in the plant, put the plants in the ground. So I think just finding those those different avenues to reach more people using their passions already. You know, we we do a lot of work with Mass Audubon, which has been phenomenal. Um so you know, people are passionate about birds. So let's show them how they can have more birds in their yard. And that's gonna have this whole ripple effect. So it's like each one, teach one, yeah, find out what people, what drives people, what makes them excited, and then help them, you know, build their gardens even more.

SPEAKER_01 37:08

You know, it's true. That is very true.

SPEAKER_00 37:10

You know, I love bugs. I'm a big bug girl.

SPEAKER_01 37:13

I'm a I'm a huge bug person as well. But it's just like, you know, I get a lot, I do get a lot of requests for pollinator gardens for butterflies only. And I'm like, we can put up the sign, no bees allowed, but don't think that's gonna work that way.

SPEAKER_00 37:28

So that one's always fun when the schools call. Like the the schools want to put in a butterfly garden, and we're like, okay, well, you have this, and like, oh, that will attract bees. We're like, y'all.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

Yeah, it's I mean, it is it is the education. The other piece with the education, and you know, I'd love to, I'd love to hear your insight on this really comes down to, and again, it's with that paradigm shift, but okay, yes, leave the leaves and everything else, but you know, and I and my my angle on that is, you know, you spent all this money on a pollinator garden. If you cut it to the nub and blow every leaf off, there go next year's pollinators, you know, and you got it, you're basically starting again. But like, where what do you see like as far as like we can and we can hit we can hit each one? Like, as far as municipalities are concerned, it's easier to teach homeowners, but what about the entire landscape community? Like, how are we going to, unless we just kind of keep hammering it home, you know, leave the leaves, leave things standing, et cetera, et cetera. Like, what what is your how do you how do you approach that?

SPEAKER_00 38:32

You know, I kind of uh I'm kind of going with go back to how I'm feeling. So I everything, everyone's feeling a pinch right now economically, right? And so when it comes to like big towns, um, you know, they they have this palette that they've used for years, and these are the trees that they're used to working with. This is how the mowing schedule, they're you know, it's it's very stable and and they're not willing to move, deviate from it. Yeah, they know how to do that. And so, yeah. And so I go, well, what about if we can fill these areas with very specific plants to help, you know, if you have a flooding issue, let's work on, you know, bioswales and and and everything. So then that's gonna the amount of work that labor you need to pay for to keep cleaning this area, to mow and all these things. So it's gonna save money in the long run. Or um, like urban trees, finding urban trees, everybody, I would hope everybody would understand the massive impact urban trees would have on neighborhoods. So finding trees that we can, and that's that's a tough order, you know, because trees aren't meant to grow in concrete. So it's challenging, but being, I think talking to people's pocketbooks really helps.

SPEAKER_02 39:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:59

When you're like, yeah, is it an outlay at the beginning? Absolutely, everything is. But if you look down the road and you look at the labor that could be saved while also adding ecological benefits, it's like, why wouldn't you?

SPEAKER_01 40:15

Yeah. No, absolutely. And, you know, certain towns and especially certain regions, you know, are changing, and you kind of mentioned it before, kind of are changing the bylaws, you know, et cetera, kind of requesting native plants, doubling down on wetland buffer zones and you know, everything else, just not letting things slide. You know, my my big one that I would love to see is treating street trees differently, you know, so they can live a little longer than three to five years, you know, maybe stop making the coffins. Uh, I feel like that's a huge, you know, missed opportunity, you know, with all with the, you know, people, you know, towns tear up their sidewalks and then repeat the same mistake, even when it's mentioned, hey, you know, these trees need more, you know, more soil volume, etc. You know, it's it's certainly hard. But like you said, you know, people go with what they know. They go with what works, they could they go with what's budgeted. I find the same thing that happens in stormwater. You know, people are unwilling to kind of try something new, you know, although it's, you know, as I say to people, like it's not new. This is this is actually older than what you're doing. It's it's so far not new. But no, it it's it's just such a it's such a challenge. And I find, um, you know, oftentimes, like I said, people are getting into natives, but they're still have their same land care practices. You know, you're you know, I I I I will I use like trillium and things like that as as examples, you know, like this is a plant that is used to growing in six inches of leaf duff. If you blow every single leaf off your property, don't then ask me why your$40 trillium isn't growing. You know, it's yeah, it's a total of the thing.

SPEAKER_00 42:01

I mean, I go back when my presentations, yeah, I I I always say it perplexes. I'm a I'm a pretty cheap person. I don't like spending money if I don't have to. Um, and I am uh very okay, I'm frugal, I'm not cheap. Um I always say, explain to me why you spend all this time and you break your back raking and blowing your leaves in the fall, and then go to Home Depot in the spring and you buy soil and mulch when you like, why would you do that? You already have it right there. Just like leave it alone and it's fine. And I get it, it's you know, it goes back to that. Oh, we need neat, clean, whatever. Um I have neighbors on either side of me that are very fastidious, beautiful yards, and you know, not a leaf to be found. Um, and I'm lucky I have maple trees, so I don't really worry about it too much. Touch them. And um they're very kind about it because I'm like, that's how it's gonna be. Um, but then I also have these, you know, beautiful plants that come up and they're always complimenting. You know, it's just it's you know, you see it happening in a yard and you're like, it draws the eye. And I, you know, hit them in the pocketbook. Be like, why would you spend, you know, a couple hundred dollars each spring when you don't have to? You can buy more flowers, which is great.

SPEAKER_01 43:28

Mine, mine was out of mine was really out of necessity. I knew I knew it was the right thing to do, but by October, November, I am so tired of really being in the landscape that I'm just like, you get to stay. But I also had a very similar neighbor situation, you know, where was doing my practice on my property, kind of leading by example, you know, and have a neighbor, you know, who'd look over the fence and kind of, you know, wasn't, but then wondered why I had all the humming. Birds when they had all the hummingbird feeders, you know, wondered why every everything was hanging out in my yard. So we had the conversation, they started adopting some of those practices. And then the neighbor on the other side was just like, I absolutely love looking out my window and watching all the birds in your yard. I live in a tight neighborhood, you know. So they're like, I love watching all the wildlife in your backyard. I'm like, you can do it too. So then it like, it slowly changes. And like you said before, not from shaming. You know, not saying, not telling anybody you're doing it wrong. You're not going to tell your neighbors they're doing it wrong. However, if they want to see all the cardinals and bluebirds and everything in their yard, you know, just like you have, they'll they'll more they don't see the fence line. They don't know the property line. They're more than happy to go over there as long as as long as it all matches up. So yeah, I totally agree with you there.

SPEAKER_00 44:47

Yeah, and a lot of it does come down to the very last thing I want to do after working with plants all day is come home and garden. So it's a little bit like cobbler's children has no shoes. My yard is pretty rough. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:02

Well, it's it's survival, it's survival of the illest. It's just like, you know what? Here you are. I'm gonna, I'm gonna put you right here, right plant, right place, right condition. You're good and go.

SPEAKER_00 45:10

I do have all of these plants in yeah, I have a I have a lot of plants in containers that I'm like, I swear someday you're gonna see the house.

SPEAKER_01 45:21

Just trust me, I'm gonna introduce you to your community soon enough. Not today. Mommy's tired, but yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:30

She's always like, what are we doing with these plants? I'm like, eh, eventually they're gonna go in the ground.

SPEAKER_01 45:36

Exactly. Eventually they'll get there. I know where I want them. I just I have a plan.

SPEAKER_00 45:41

I have a plan.

SPEAKER_01 45:42

Wonderful, wonderful plan. And an insatiable appetite for buying cool things and bringing them home. However, they're not gonna make it in the yard. So let me just ask you, really, just a couple final questions. But looking ahead, what would success look like for Blue STEM and for the native plant movement in New England over the next five years?

SPEAKER_00 46:04

Ooh, that's a good one. Uh, you know, we would we just we really want to reach more people. So I I think we want to be able to get native plants in as many yards as possible. I think we'd love to expand our footprint or you know, we release our property. So buying our own property would be phenomenal. And having a great, we do have some great employees, but being able to be successful enough to have a fantastic team, long-term team, would be awesome because I think the more that we're able to have employees that can work with the nursery and also, you know, outside the nursery at sales and and doing consultations and maybe installations in the future, you know, finding those holes again. I think that's really what we're looking to do.

SPEAKER_01 47:10

Awesome. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:12

I know it's a big order, it's a little stressful to think about.

SPEAKER_01 47:16

It's I and I say manifest the hell out of it.

SPEAKER_00 47:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:20

Honestly, just keep believing it's going to happen, uh, you know, and and it will certainly happen. So um before we totally just totally wrap things up, I just I'm wondering, are there any, aside from your website, which is tight as far as information is concerned, are there any books or other publications, any place that you would send a native plant enthusiast? Again, aside from your website, because I love being on there and just seeing everything you're up to and all the info you have on there, and you do great, you know, with your education and outreach, uh, which is your your portion of the business as far as I as far as I know. But where would you lead people like if as they're getting excited, you know, as they're getting ready to come to the nursery, like where would you lead people to kind of prep themselves for for their for our season of native plants and or just to learn more?

SPEAKER_00 48:15

Well, this is where I feel like the native plant industry as a whole is so different from like the typical garden center or horticulture industry, because while we're in competition a little bit, we're really we have bigger goals. So we work together so well. So we have a phenomenal network in this immediate region. And I think we're just so lucky. So there's native plant trust, which you can't go wrong. Like Go Botany is an absolutely phenomenal tool that we use on the daily. Um, the Native Plant Finder. Yeah. Grow Native Mass is an amazing, it's grownative mass.org, absolutely amazing resource. And they've put together a bunch of us. We have like a listserve of all of our little nurseries and you know includes backyard growers and you know, slightly larger nurseries. And we work together to find plants, swap seeds. We we do um hit farmers markets. So it's it's a community through and through. And it doesn't feel like I mean, I don't know what it's like to work at a big garden center. Um but I can't really imagine being like, you know, oh, call up Kennedy's and see, you know, what they're selling this for. You know, I don't really think that's how it works. Yeah, but we don't have a problem doing that. If somebody's looking for something, I'm like, oh, I'll call, you know, Katie up in Ipswich and we'll find that plant for you or I'll send you up to Walter in North Andover. So it's it's a beautiful thing. It is the one. That means we don't have to grow everything. Yeah, we don't have to grow it all. We can kind of split it up and everybody can have peace. It's really great.

SPEAKER_01 50:11

And I think I think people appreciate that because it's you're absolutely right. Within the native plant community and with and with native plant nurseries, like everybody's really just like trying to make whoever the client is, you know, successful. And that, you know, that's the piece. So like helping people, even if it's elsewhere, to find, you know, to find plants, etc., like you're making that person successful and you're setting them on a good path, you know, on their native journey, which is just, you know, which which is awesome because it's not it's not really a cutthroat.

SPEAKER_00 50:43

Yeah, business-wise, probably not a great decision, but that's not why we're in this. Do we want to make money and have you know healthy financial families? Of course. Yes. Um, the margins in the horticulture world are abysmal, but there's a bigger plan for all of this, and we really just want it's idealistic, I guess, but it's working for us and it's working for others. So that's that's how we everything.

SPEAKER_01 51:14

That's that's just awesome. So why don't you tell everybody where they can find you? And first of all, I will let you know if you email Blue STEM, you will get an auto response. They will get back to you. If you call, you will get you have to leave a message. Voicemail. These are very busy women doing amazing work. So please give them a little bit of patience, but tell them where to find you, tell them what they should be checking out, and when are you opening?

SPEAKER_00 51:46

And it is an absolutely brutal time of year. So totally, and keep in mind we do have children too. So we are busy, busy uh creatures. Uh, yes, so we are in Norwell, right off of Route 53, and um not terribly visible from the road. It's a little bitty sign. You have to kind of look for it. So, village gardens, it's a big sign with lots of little shops. It's lovely. You should totally come and see lots of women-owned little businesses in there. Um and we are all the way in the back. So if you see the village garden sign and you take a little trip towards the back, you'll see the nursery and the greenhouse and everything. And it's it's wonderful. But right off of Route 53 in Norwell. And you can find us, our website is bluestemnatives.com with an S at the end. And yep, and all of our contact information is right down the bottom. But yeah, it it is gonna take us a little bit to get back to you.

SPEAKER_01 52:44

That that's okay. It's okay because you've is what it is. In spite of it all, you've created a hell of a demand. People are hungry for what it is, you know, you are you are all doing there. You got a, you know, you got a great product, you got a great mission, and you know, it's it's definitely worth the wait. I'm just wanted to preface that because people get excited and people want answers now, right meow, and yeah, you can't always get it. And that's because this is a small, you know, owner-operated business, and they're not gonna if enough people come, we don't have a separate. Maybe they'll have somebody a phone center or something going, but we got to get those people there first. But you guys are doing amazing work. I am just so appreciative of everything you're doing, and thank you so much for showing up today.

SPEAKER_00 53:34

My pleasure. Thanks so much for having me and being patient with nailing me down.

SPEAKER_01 53:40

It is it is all good. It was worth the wait, and I'm glad we made it happen. Thank you so much for joining us. Peace welcome, pollinators. We will see you next time.