Episode 8: Healing from Life’s Deepest Hurts – Finding God in the Pain

In this deeply moving and faith-filled episode of Beautiful Chaos with Natasha, I sit down with Kimberly Haar to talk about her powerful testimony, healing journey, and unwavering trust in God through life’s darkest seasons.

Kimberly opens up about her story of pain, restoration, and redemption and how the Holy Spirit and her personal relationship with the Lord carried her through moments she never thought she would survive.

We also talk about her book, Healing from Life’s Deepest Hurts, and the heart behind its message: that true healing is possible, even after unimaginable loss and heartbreak.

What makes this episode especially meaningful is that we recorded it on the 25th anniversary of my biological mother’s passing—a sacred and emotional moment that God clearly ordained.

Together, we reflect on:

• Walking through grief and loss
• Learning how to forgive without closure
• Setting healthy boundaries while healing
• Letting go of the need for an apology
• Finding peace without validation
• Allowing God to heal what people cannot

We talk honestly about how forgiveness can feel impossible when you never receive the apology you deserve and how sometimes, freedom comes when you release that expectation and give it to God instead.

This episode is a reminder that:

Healing is a process
Grief has no timeline
Forgiveness is for your freedom
God can redeem every broken place

If you are walking through loss, heartbreak, betrayal, or unanswered pain, this conversation will meet you right where you are.

A Gentle Encouragement

If you’re carrying wounds that no one sees…
If you’re tired of waiting for closure…
If you’re struggling to forgive…

This episode is for you.

You don’t have to carry it alone. God sees you. He is near. And healing is still possible.

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Your story matters. Your healing matters.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

This episode is sponsored by LBL Land and Cattle LLC, your source for the healthiest belted Galloway beef cattle for your table. And remember, always eat beef. This episode is sponsored by Polo Grill. When you're craving a dining experience that feels timeless, refined, and truly unforgettable, there is only one place to go. At Polo Grill in Tulsa, every detail matters. From hand cut steaks and fresh seafood to an award-winning wine list and impeccable service, this is where special moments are made. Whether it's a date night, a celebration, or an evening just because Polo Grill delivers classic elegance with modern flavor. Polo Grill Exceptional Dining. This episode is sponsored by Grazy Girl Creative Luxury Catering and Boutique House, bringing luxury charcuterie, beautiful events, and unforgettable experiences. Friends, if you're looking for an amazing charcuterie and a beautiful place to celebrate, you have to check out Grazy Girl. Their boards are next level, perfect for birthdays, showers, bachelorette parties, girls' night, and special occasions. Their boutique house is stunning and every detail is designed to make your event feel special. They even offer gorgeous Airbnb for stay vacations and girls' weekends. So whether you're planning something big or just want to treat your people, Grazy Girl is the place. Go follow them, book them, and see it for yourself. Trust me, you'll love it. Welcome to the Beautiful Chaos with Natasha, the space where real life gets a voice. Here we talk about the messy, the meaningful, and the moments that shape us. I am your host, Natasha. A mom, a wife, a creator, a woman doing her best in the middle of the magnet. This podcast was born out of the moments I thought would break me. When life felt too heavy, too chaotic, and too lonely. But somewhere in the middle of the struggle, I realized I wasn't the only one. So many women are walking through their own storms, carrying stories they've never had a safe place to share. This season, I am sitting down with women who have walked through fire, rebuilt from the ashes, and found healing in places they never expected. Women who are brave enough to tell the truth, the whole truth about motherhood and everything that comes with it. Marriage, mental health, lost identity, and the beautiful mess of real life. Nothing is off limits. Nothing is filtered. This is where we are honest and where we remember we are not alone. So let's dive in and find the beauty in the chaos together. Today's episode is incredibly close to my heart. Not only because of our amazing guest, Miss Kimberly, but today also marks the 25th anniversary of my biological mom's passing. And with that anniversary comes with a lot of emotions, grief, questions, healing, and forgiveness. Some of us are carrying wounds that never got talked through. Some of us never got closure. Some of us never even got the apology. But yet God still asks us to heal. Kimberly is a survivor, licensed therapist, a woman of faith, and an author of Healing from Life's Deepest Hurts. Today she's going to share her story and help us understand how to trust God and forgive people that we can't forgive face to face. If you're hurting or if you're grieving, if you're holding on to something heavy, this episode is for you. So let's dive in. Hello, Miss Kimberly. Hello. Welcome to the beautiful chaos. Thank you for having me. I'm so grateful that you're here. You are.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

I'm honored. I really am.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

No, I'm the honored one. Oh my gosh. So, man, what a beautiful full circle moment of today. I think this is a God story. I think God is working with us today. And I am just so grateful for our church and our church family and that he brought you into my life. So let's get started. All right. So can you share a little bit with us, the listeners, a story on who is Miss Kimberly, what you come from, and all of the important little topics that you would like to hit on?

SPEAKER_00 4:59

Sure. Well, I am a uh dual licensed therapist. Yes. I'm a licensed professional counselor, also a licensed marriage and family therapist. Yes. Um, I am a mom of four. I am a stepmom of three and a grandma of three. Yes. So my roles, uh, grandma is probably one of my favorite roles. Absolutely. Um professionally, um, I have been a therapist for almost 20 years. So I've been doing this a really, really long time. And the reason I even got started in therapy as a therapist is because I got really um not effective counseling, and it was marriage counseling with my first husband. And at the time I felt like the therapist was putting more of a band-aid on my marriage than what I needed. And I was really wanting some hope. And so I decided early on in my first marriage that I was gonna go back to school someday. And I was going to learn how to be a therapist, I was gonna learn how to give hope. And when I was in my uh late 30s, early 40s is actually when I went back to school to become a therapist. Look at you. Uh I know there's no deadline. It's like you go back and do it. And I think I was 40 when I when I graduated.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

Yes, and that just showed that you always have the time and the chance to do what your heart is called to. That's right. And for you to like listen to your heart and be like, okay, maybe I'm gonna be able to go in here and change something in this industry and help other people and fill in that uh voice and that guidance is beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 6:36

So Well, I think those gifts are inside you. God puts those gifts inside you from a very early age. Yes. And I am told stories by my parents of how I was always the one that was helping others. I was always wanting to make other people feel better, and and it just it opened up and it just felt right. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

I am so impressed. You are phenomenal. So what can you please share with us what led you to write this beautiful book, Healing from Life's Deepest Hurts? Um, reclaiming your life after grief, loss, and trauma. You have one of the most, I'm gonna say gut-wrenching testimonies that I have ever heard. And the fact that the things that you have been through and that you are still standing today, and you are you trust and love God as much as you do is something that I want our listeners today to know that it is real. So, could you give us a little synopsis on what this book is about and your story if you're sure?

SPEAKER_00 7:47

Well, in 2017, I had been divorced for four years. And when I got divorced, it was really one of the hardest decisions I had ever made.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

Right.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

Because when I married, I made God a promise. This is till death do its part. Um, I made my first husband a promise. But soon into our marriage, my now ex-husband, I realized that there were patterns of pornography, chat rooms, there had been some one-night stands. But by the time I found that out, we already had four children. So I'm a mom of four kids under the age of five. And I discovered that my my husband has been involved with other women. And at that time, I was like, what do I do? I'm a young mom of four. I don't want my kids to be going from home to home. And I had heard the message so often taught in churches about you need to forgive, God restores. And at the time there wasn't a lot of talking about boundaries and about um, you know, emotional safety. And there was never any domestic violence in my marriage, and we had a lot of good years, but we also had a lot of really hard years. Right. And so in 2013, I discovered my ex-husband was actually in an affair, and I knew that I could not stay in that marriage any longer. Um, so I made the decision to divorce. Our youngest children were 15, and I decided for four years I was just gonna be mom. Right. And I didn't want my kids to have to fight for attention with anybody else. And so for four years, I just I was mom. Well, 2017 came around. Yes. And I woke up and something stirred inside me. My kids were going to college, and I just heard inside my heart the words, this is the year you're gonna be married again. And I could swear I heard the words buckle your seatbelt. I just thought that then it's gonna go fast. I love this story so much. So I started dating. You know, where does a and I was 50 years old. Yes. Where does a 50-year-old woman go to start dating again?

SPEAKER_01 9:52

Didn't you start at a at church with the singles? I did. The singles group?

SPEAKER_00 9:57

Yes. I did. I tried several church single groups. Yes. And when you're 50, it just it was it it was hard. It was sad. It seemed to me like there was a bunch of women my age and like one, you know, man in the group, and every woman was after. I mean, yeah. Poor guy, poor guy. Oh my gosh. So I thought, has my life come to this? And so I decided to go and do some online dating because I'm not, I wasn't a Barcene person. I and I had been raised in Canada at a fishing camp. And I had learned that if you want to catch a fish, you have a better chance of catching a fish if you have five lines in the water. So, or more than one line. Amen. So I thought this is gonna apply to dating as well. So I didn't just join one dating site, I joined five. And after four weeks of dating, I had had 13 first dates, I was ready to hang it up. And I was reached out by a gentleman, and I thought, well, he looks nice, he needs a friend. Right. And I decided this was gonna be my last first date. And when I went on this date, I knew almost immediately this is the man, this is the guy that um we clicked, and so for four weeks we saw each other almost every day. And he he was an engineer, and he looked at me one day and he goes, I asked Google how long you need to know somebody before you know you're in love. And that's the engineer brain, and he said, Do you know I want to marry you? And so we were planning on, we were really headed that way, even though it had just been four weeks. Yes. At the same time, my ex-husband reached out to me and he asked me to come talk to him about our adult children. We had done this a lot of times. And so I went by his home, and really what he was wanting to talk about was us reunifying and me giving him another opportunity for us to be together. So I just said, You need to move on. I've moved on, I'm dating somebody seriously. And he looked at me and he said, Maybe I'm just gonna have to go have a talk with that man. And I didn't think anything about it. I mean, I thought he's gonna be a nuisance, you know, he's gonna spread a rumor. Right. And so when I left there, I called Andrew, was the man's name, and I said, Can I come buy your house and just kind of tell you what happened, what my ex-husband said. And and when I left Andrew's house that night, I asked him, I said, Would you fight for me? And he looked at me and he said, Well, of course I would. You're worth it. And I went home that night. I was by myself because I was empty nesting. Right. I always locked my bedroom door, uh, my house door, but this time something told me lock my bedroom door. So I got up out of bed, locked my door, and I went to sleep. And at 2 30 in the morning, I woke up to my bedroom door crashing down off of its hinges. My ex-husband was intoxicated. He had a gun in his hand, and for the next four hours I was assaulted. Um, following the assault, he told me as punishment for ruining his life, he was going to kidnap me and he was gonna drive me to Andrew's house, and I would have to watch him murder Andrew. So that that kind of began a series of events where I did, I got away. Um, but as I was getting away in the vehicle, my ex-husband, I heard three gunshots. So I really didn't think Andrew was gonna survive. Um I made an escape to a super center, um, called 911, and I later learned um while I was sitting in the emergency room that Andrew had been shot 10 times.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

When I uh when I heard this story for the first time at Daughters at Church, like I I mean I had legit have goosebumps, and it's just like, how does somebody go through that and still carry on? Like I have I ugh, I just cannot even wrap my head around it.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

You know, I think in the early days, um, when I left the emergency room, and first of all, while I was in the emergency room, I got a phone call from Andrew's, one of his adult sons. Yes. And his adult son said, I'd only met him one time, but he said, I'm really sorry this happened to you guys, but we think it's better if you guys go your separate ways. And so I think I was grieving more the loss of that relationship than everything that had happened to me that morning.

SPEAKER_01 14:22

Oh wow, that just shows like how much you truly loved him and you felt that he was the one.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

I I was grieving the future I felt like was taken away from me.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

Right. The hope and the love that you deserve.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

And so partner.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

Yep, yep. So I went and I stayed for five weeks at a home that had been gifted to me for the summer. My aunt and uncle had a beautiful home. They had gone to Canada for the summer. And when they were giving me a tour of their home, I saw this beautiful pergola in the backyard. And something just again, I just keep saying it stirred inside me, but that's always the way I feel like the Lord has talked to me.

SPEAKER_01 15:02

So, how you relate to the Holy Spirit? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

And so that stirring, I just I thought of Moses when he took off his sandals at the burning bush and he said, I'm standing on holy ground. Right. And I knew that this place was gonna be a holy ground where I was gonna get to begin a healing, meet Jesus, tell him everything I was feeling. And so that really began me running to the Lord. And a lot of people, when they go through hard things, they run away from the Lord. They blame the Lord, run away from the Lord. And for me, I was raised in what I say is a greenhouse of faith. Jesus was not taught about, but I watched my family live it. Right. And so I knew I had to run to Jesus. I had to run to my Heavenly Father. And in the beginning, I didn't have words to pray. I mean, I like literally, I wrapped myself in a green bank blanket and I laid uh prostrate on the ground and I just wept. And my body is like my body wept. I didn't know my it's like sounds, I didn't know it could even come from your body. It was just, and I remember praying and saying, Lord, I have no words to pray. I am so broken. I've never felt this empty. And I remembered a scripture that says um that God rejoices over us and he sings over us, and it's in Zephaniah. And so I prayed and I asked the Lord, I said, Would you sing over me and would you breathe life back into my body? And that began listening to praise and worship music, letting it just bathe over me. And soon I was praying and singing with them. And um I think the hardest thing I had to learn during that period of time was to let go of control. Because I was saying, I was telling God what to do, when to do it, how to do it, but then I was saying, Oh, and Lord, I trust you.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

Yeah, that's not how it works. And trust me, I've had to learn the hard way. Yeah, and I think once you fully like experienced that moment with him, and he kind of like giggling at us. Like, I told you.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:13

But no, those that is so true.

SPEAKER_00 17:15

Yeah. And so I had to get to where I I've always been an honest prayer. And I prayed and I said, Lord, I don't want to trust you. I am so scared to trust you. Because what if you don't give me what I want? And that is the hard part. And that was the hard part of really surrendering because I knew what I wanted. I wanted Andrew to come back to me. I wanted everything to be okay. And um, I told the Lord, I said, I don't feel like it. And and I always, you know, when I'm sharing my story, I always talk about how it's rather than being led by our feelings, it's about actually making a decision and a choice. And so I told the Lord, I said, as a sign of my surrender to you, I put my hands up in like this waltz position. There was a song called Dance With Me. And it was by Paul Wilbur, and I would close my eyes, and it's about the Lord wooing your heart. And I would dance, I would waltz to this, you know, song with my eyes closed, and I'm not a dancer. Um, but at the end of the waltz, after that three minutes or something like that, I would always bow my head in courtesy. And it was like, Lord, this is my sacrifice of praise because I don't feel like it. And so that began really, again, the healing of going through things like grieving, having to forgive, having to walk that journey. And the good news is that after six weeks, I got a Facebook Messenger message from Andrew. His kids had taken my phone number out of his phone. And so I get this message and it says, Hey, I'm alive. So how would you respond to that?

SPEAKER_01 19:01

I don't know how I would respond to that. I mean, I'm surprised that you didn't reach out to him sooner than that. Because I mean, maybe this is like the crazy side of me, but I would have already reached out to him. I would have already stalked him. Like I would probably have gone to the hospital room. Like, your son came to me.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Yeah. No, I'd be like, um, hello. Andrew was under an assumed name because it was a crime scene. Oh my gosh, it was I didn't know what hospital he was at, and he was in and out of surgeries. By this time, he had probably had about 13 surgeries.

SPEAKER_01 19:30

Did he ever be was he ever in medical a coma? No. Okay. While he was at the hospital and you were discharged and you were at your aunt and your uncle's house, healing, processing, grieving. Did you have any update of what he was going to do?

SPEAKER_00 19:48

I had one update, and that was now Kim, I would have gone psychotic. Don't think I wasn't because I was. I was trying to, because we were taken to different hospitals. And so I was trying to think about, I was trying to think, who do I know that is like maybe a chaplain or somebody that's in hospitals that can like do my hunting for me.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

Oh no, I would be marching up in every single hospital. I mean, if it was my husband and like so I've been married before too. So if I was like in your shoes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

And this was the boyfriend at this time.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

That's what I'm saying. Like, I would be knocking on every single door. But also, I think in that moment, you were just trying to maybe just survive yourself.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

So I was calling all my friends. I was saying, put me on every prayer chain. This is what you need to pray, how you need to pray, when you need to pray. And you know, a beautiful thing is I went out for coffee with my pastor's wife at the time. And she looked at me and I was getting ready to tell her how she should pray, when she should pray. And she said, Kim, you cannot make Andrew your idol. She said, You are putting your happiness in Andrew, and that's a place that only Jesus is supposed to fill.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

And that was the point, that's actually the part that triggered me into going and telling the Lord, fine, fine, I give up. And and so that was so I did get an update from um Andrew had a woman that was his assistant, but even at this time, he wasn't at work. So I couldn't find him at work. He had moved in with his son, his adult son. I didn't know where he lived. I didn't know the name in the hospital, so I had no contact with him.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

I would have gone insane.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

So then you get the message. I get the message. Hey, I'm alive. So what did you say? Yippee. My first response was yippee. Really? But I but then I said, I went into exploration. I'm like, I love you. Please call me. I went into explaining that please know I did not lead my ex-husband there. I didn't give me your address. I had no part in this. I am so sorry. And I said, Can I come see you at the hospital? Because he was getting ready to go in for um another surgery. His wounds were infected. And he said, No, don't come. He said, I'll contact you after, you know, the surgery's done in four or five days. And that was a really long period of time to wait. And so I was on pins and needles. He contacted me and he said, A visit would be nice, but come when my adult kids aren't there. And so here I am, 50 years old, and I am sneaking around the hospital like Ocean's 11, you know, I'm the spy. And so I saw his hospital room. I slowly opened it and he was bandaged up. His arm was in a sling. And I looked at him and I said, Andrew, where does this leave us? And my heart sank when he said, I don't know. He said, I've read the felony accounts. He goes, I know what happened to you. And he said, You're really going to be messed up. He said, I know what happened to me, and I'm really going to be messed up. And something came over me in that moment, and I shook my finger in his face and I said, Andrew Har, you will never meet another woman like me.

SPEAKER_01 23:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

And I didn't even leave that hospital room. He was like, Come here. I got into the hospital bed with him. The doctors and nurses were coming, and everybody was like smiling. And four weeks later we were engaged. And four months later, we were married.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

Oh my gosh. That doesn't show you like the testimony of love and your guys' foundation. I don't know what would. I mean, the fact that you guys, when you were just talking something that came into my head, is like, let's be messed up together. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, at the end of the day, no one is going to understand the trauma that you two experience besides you two. And I think people can resonate with that when someone says, Oh, I I'm so sorry that your brother passed away. I'm so sorry that you've experienced this when they haven't walked through it. So, were you guys able to connect our bond over the situation that you guys experienced?

SPEAKER_00 24:26

I don't know that bonding over it is really the way I describe it. Okay. Um, because I've already said Andrew's an engineer. Right. And he's a fixer. Andrew's a fixer, but he's also really good at compartmentalizing things. And so in his mind, this happened, it's done, it's over. Let's move forward. Love that. And it was not, and I'm telling, you know, I'm telling you, you need to go for therapy. Yeah. You're gonna have PTSD. And and he went, got checked out. There was no PTSD. He was, I mean, it was literally, Andrew was good. But what Andrew experienced was a trauma to the body. He had never met my ex-husband. There was no relationship, there was no warning. So what he went through, the actual trauma of being shot from start to finish was probably five minutes, right? Five to ten minutes. Um, what I ended up going through was I I did have a relationship. I had four hours of not knowing if I was gonna live or I was gonna die. Um, and so there was a lot of more of the emotional healing that I had to do. Right. I mean, I had some physical healing, but it I I healed fairly quickly. Um it was the inside. But it was the inside. And right here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:36

That you had to overcome. Do you did within all of that time? I know your faith is what got you through the trauma that you have experienced and the situation that you and Andrew have gone through, but what was another tool that you were able to use to heal from your emotional trauma?

unknown 26:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:06

I think there was several. One is um I asked for help. Right. The very first thing I did is called my pastor. The second thing is I called a Christian therapist. Um, so I asked for help, not that therapy was going to heal me, but I knew that I wanted somebody walking beside me that would make sure I didn't get stuck, that I kept doing the healing work. Um he I tried to heal in community because when something hard happens, you want to pull away and isolate. And that's exactly what the enemy wants us to do. Because then he can feed us his lies that say, your life is over, nobody cares, nothing's gonna get better. And you ruminate on those. And so when you are in a good, wise community, you actually, if you say some of those things out loud, you've got people that are saying, Okay, wait a second, that's not what the word of God says. That's not, you know, let's look at this a different way. So I think that that being in community was very helpful. And it's hard when you go through something hard like that because one minute, I like if I was alone, I just wanted people around me. But then when I had people around me, I just wanted to be alone. So it was just like a hit or miss, you just didn't know what. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, so having good friends, good community was really, really important. Um, and being vulnerable in what was going on. Um, I think another one was allowing myself to grieve and feel my feelings. And I told God, I'm so angry. I felt so abandoned. Where were you? Um, I I didn't just like get over it. It was, okay, this is this is what I'm grieving. This is what I don't understand. And I named those things. And that's a part of grieving is really being able to, what have I lost? And in those instances, I felt like I lost my innocence because I lost the feeling safe in a world. Because now it felt like the world was unsafe. Now people that love you can hurt you. Um, I felt like I had to grieve the past, the present, and the future because at this point Andrew hadn't come back. Right. Um, and so grieving was a really important, I'll say it's a tool, and grief is a gift God gives us to help us heal. Right. You know, it's it's we have it's not fun.

SPEAKER_01 28:30

No, it's uncomfortable. I think a lot of people have a hard time grieving. I mean, I do. Yep. It is the most maybe like the most uncomfortable feeling. It's like grieving over something that you're never going to be able to get back. Yeah. It's painful. It's so painful.

SPEAKER_00 28:45

It's painful. Um, and with grief, it's a little bit like sometimes I I liken it to the rain. Sometimes it feels like you're caught off guard in a thunderstorm. Right. And then other times it may just be a sprinkle. You just never know what's going to come.

SPEAKER_01 29:01

And that's the scary part about grief.

SPEAKER_00 29:03

Because it can come in waves and come in and out.

SPEAKER_01 29:05

I like how you did that metaphor with that.

SPEAKER_00 29:07

Yeah. And so that's a part of when we don't allow ourselves to grieve. You know, lots of people, you can heal without walking through that grieving by compartmentalizing, by moving forward, trying to forget, but you really don't get wholeness. There's a difference between being healed and whole. And so that was a part I knew I wanted complete healing. So I went through grieving. Um, and one day I would think, hey, okay, I got this. Everything, the world's gonna be okay. Right. And then the next day I was back on my face weeping. Right. Um, because healing isn't linear, it's not like you take 10 steps forward, and the next step forward, it's it is this messy up and down, and you never know what to run.

SPEAKER_01 29:54

And every day can be different. And I think when people have experienced lost or trauma or anything in that world, it's hard as a human because in my shoes, in my experience, I have days where I don't even think about it. Yeah. And then I have days that it's like all I think about. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just trying to like not rewire your brain, but it's trying, I'm trying to always like, okay, it's okay. Just breathe. It's okay.

SPEAKER_00 30:25

You know what I like to, especially when I'm working with my clients, I like to tell them, think of grief as a visitor. Almost sometimes it's an unwelcome visitor, but it's knocking at your door. And it's like I can just ignore it, but that knocking is still there, and that visitor doesn't go anywhere. And if I open that door and I let that visitor in and I say, Come sit with me for a while. What do you want me to know? What do you want to tell me? Have a conversation with that grief. And grief will then leave. Now it will come back again, but the more you don't fight those emotions and feelings, the more you actually are present with them. It's like that visitor comes less and less.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

That's a saying when people say when someone passes or you go through something, is it it feels like everything's the world is ending right now, but you just learn how to live with it.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

You move forward.

SPEAKER_01 31:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:27

I didn't even think about that.

SPEAKER_00 31:28

That is such a And it's not, you know, when when it's living with it, I think that there's a part of what is it that I'm living with? Right. Because I'm I don't live with the pain of what happened to me anymore. Right. I've moved, I've done the healing and I've moved forward, but it doesn't mean I'm not reminded of something. Right. And it doesn't mean it doesn't come to, you know, in the form of a memory. And in those times is how do I stay with that memory? And what is it that I'm feeling? How do I allow myself to feel that? And once that's honored, okay, now I can move forward.

SPEAKER_01 32:02

That's why they always say just take in the feelings and feel everything, and then you can release and let it go. Absolutely. What would you say to the listeners today that have a hard time diving into their feelings? Like they have a wall-up and they just don't dive into it, kind of like what you said earlier, like they compromitalize, or they just put it in a box, they just shoe it away, they keep ignoring it, keep ignoring it. What would you say to that listener?

SPEAKER_00 32:32

Well, I think many times um when we've got a wall-up, we have self-defense mechanisms that keep us safe. Right. So it may be we keep ourselves busy. Um, it may be um I distract myself. And so I think that there's a part of the very first thing is begin sitting with sitting with whatever memories coming up, whatever feeling is coming up, and maybe ask yourself, what is it that I'm feeling in my body? Right. Where am I feeling it? If it's a knot in my stomach or if it's in my chest, or um, I encourage journaling because sometimes it can start out and you think I have nothing to journal, but all of a sudden you begin journaling and it's like the doors are just wide open. Yeah, yeah. So I think that if someone does have the walls up and they can't, they don't feel like they've got access to their emotions, I would say absolutely that's a good time to get in therapy and actually do some work.

SPEAKER_01 33:26

So reeling it back into your book, when was it in your healing journey that you're like, okay, I need to share my testimony, share my tools and everything that you have learned to write this beautiful book?

SPEAKER_00 33:45

Um, I think I knew even before I went through everything, I've always known I was gonna write a book. Okay. Um, just from a very early age. I knew I was gonna write a book. In fact, with my first married name, I even went to the bookstore and I bought two books with a woman whose name was the same as mine, and I put them on a bookshelf. So I would keep that in front of me is um, what would my name look like on a book? Oh my God. The interesting thing is one of them was on grieving. And stop it. It sits on the bookshelf today. It is it's on grieving. Now the other one was on decluttering. I'm working I'm working on this. We declutter on some things. She obviously had the same problems I do. Um but so I always knew. Um, and when I was married to my first husband, I thought I would write a book about trusting again, but it was going to be about trusting a partner after infidelity, um, because I know God does work through those things. Um, when all of this happened, I I didn't have any say-so on what everybody knew about my story, because it was all over the news. Um, but the story was here's a woman that's hurt, assaulted, kidnapped. And so all anybody knew was woman is hurt. And I didn't want that to be my story. I wanted the story to be, yes, here was a woman that was hurt. Those things did happen to her, but their real story is she ran to Jesus and found healing. And I wanted the story to be we can find healing when we do that work. Right. So that's when I made that decision. Because it was hard as a therapist. We don't talk about ourselves, we don't put yourself in that light. It's like my job is to hold everyone else's stories. And so me deciding to put my story out there, it would, it took some courage and so and bravery and vulnerability.

SPEAKER_01 35:35

Because I mean, nobody wants to re-talk about the the worst thing that's ever happened to you over and over and over again. But the the fact that you are so trustful and faithful to the Lord that you are like, use me, use me in whatever way you need. And if this is what I need to talk about, then I'm gonna talk about it. Yeah. And that is something when you were sharing your story at Daughters, I just looked at you and I was like, that is a woman that I want to be. Thank you. In my walk of faith. Where did, yeah, where where in your mind was like, okay, you know what? I I can leave this marriage because of your faith. Does that make sense? Yeah. This episode is sponsored by Polo Grill. When you're craving a dining experience that feels timeless, refined, and truly unforgettable, there is only one place to go. At Polo Grill in Tulsa, every detail matters. From hand cut steaks and fresh seafood to an award-winning wine list, an impeccable service, this is where special moments are made. Whether it's a date night, a celebration, or an evening just because Polo Grill delivers classic elegance with modern flavor. Polo Grill, exceptional dining.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

You know, I think when I made the decision to leave my marriage finally, I don't know that it was necessarily just my faith. Or in that moment, again, that was another moment I felt very broken.

SPEAKER_02 37:14

Right.

SPEAKER_00 37:15

I felt very broken, very wounded, but I knew, I mean, when my ex-husband was in the affair, it was an abandonment. And so at that point, it was, okay, what am I going to do? Because I had been, I had lived in in my marriage and I had forgiven and forgiven, and I had gotten really good at forgiving. Right. Um, but with forgiveness, there was a part of um it began to minimize, it began to look the other way. It began to, this is what I'm supposed to do. Um, and I would rush through it without knowing even what I was forgiving. And so I think when the actual affair happened, it was just like a knowing inside me that I'm done. Yeah. I I and and I still did forgive because this is a part of the very last words I ever spoke to my ex-husband. The morning he broke into my my bedroom, after he had assaulted me for four hours, the intoxication began wearing off of his body. And he looked down at me and he said, Tell me the truth. I've gone too far. You could never forgive me. There's no going back. And in that moment, you know, my brain was processing so fast because I'm just like, I just want to stay alive, you know, and there was a survival mode. There was a thought of, well, just say whatever you need to to placate, but I thought, I can't placate that. Yeah. And so I looked up at him, my face was, you know, bloodied, um, beyond recognition. And I called him by name and I said, You're right, you have gone too far. There's no going back. I said, but I want you to know that I will forgive you. Now, that didn't mean I forgave him that day. But that day I made a declaration over myself that I will be forgiving. I will do the work, I will heal. And that night I actually prayed for him. I knew he was in jail. I prayed, I prayed he wouldn't be scared. Now, I was I was angry at the same time. I held this anger at how could you do this to me? And a compassion of here, he's in jail. And I just prayed that the Lord would put angels around him and let him feel God's presence. And I really felt, you know, just the Lord letting me know that through the years, because he was going to be sent away for many years, it was like his God's presence was gonna go with him. But that was the beginning of in having to forgive, you know. I I wrote down in my journals, what is it that I'm forgiving? Because just to say I forgive and not know what I'm forgiving, I mean, I was forgiving for years of things and began began doing that work in naming, what am I forgiving? And then releasing that. It was like, this is what I'm forgiving. Now I'm making a choice to forgive.

SPEAKER_01 40:12

Wow. Wow. Wow. I have never done that with my mom. I've never sat down and wrote, What am I forgiving Robin for? Yeah. And I think something so I think something that I've experienced with the trauma that with my mom passing away when I was nine is that I never got to look at her in the face. Yeah. And that is something that you and I have chatted privately about. That I've never got to look at her and say, I forgive you. Yeah. But what am I forgiving her for? Yep. Yep. So now in this moment, I'm sitting here thinking about my own experience. Like, have I truly forgiven her yet?

SPEAKER_00 41:02

Well, I think that there's a part of, you know, um, writing things down, and even I encourage, I encourage my clients when I'm working with my clients with forgiveness is write a letter, write a series of letters. Dear, what you want to call her mom, Robin, but this is what I need you to know. This is what this cost me. This is how this shaped me. This is what I didn't have. This is what I lost. This is, and and it's it doesn't have to be a pretty letter. It can be, these are all my emotions. I'm angry, I'm mad. How dare you, you know. And so in writing that, and it may be when you say that you can't, you know, look, you didn't get to look at your your birth mom in her face. Um, it may be having a picture of her. Right. And when you write that, I encourage you to actually spend time and just think, Lord, show me what is it that that all needs to be released. And I will have my clients actually read that letter out loud to me because I validate that for them. Is we we need to be validated in our pain. But even in writing that letter, I then go back and especially when it's somebody that you have no contact with, right? Your mom, your birth mom is deceased. Right. Um, but I encourage people to at that point write a letter back to you from her and tell you the things you wish you would have heard. What did your heart need to hear? Oh gosh. And in that, that can actually help. Now, not everybody can get to that place, but yeah, but if you can get to that place where you can actually say, Dear Natasha. Right. And you take accountability in her words, she's taking accountability. Um, she may be making an amend, maybe expressing love, whatever that is you need to hear. Um, and then you end that, and it's one of those things of, let's say she's saying, I'm asking you to forgive me. She may say, I've done the best I could, um, but I still need to ask you to forgive me. Then I followed up with another letter. And that one's from you to her, and that's the release, saying, I'm choosing this, I am choosing to release you from that. I I am choosing to to forgive you for those things. It doesn't make it okay. It doesn't, it can't fix it, it can't undo it. Right. Um, but I feel like I've spoken what I needed to. And and you know, when the Bible talks about there's a great cloud of witnesses in heaven, right? Um, it's like in that release, I like to think of the people in heaven being able to hear that release. And it's like uh envisioning, you know what, I can envision seeing my birth mom's face as I say the words I choose to forgive. And it doesn't mean you never experience the hurt again. But when you experience the hurt again, when the memory comes up, that's when you actually come back and say, you know what? Yeah, it doesn't undo the hurt. But I've made a choice. I've made a choice to forgive. And if something new comes up, you just do the same thing. Hey, I'm I may write a PS to my letter. Or yeah, PSS. PSS, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:13

Wow. That I just never looked at it that way because my dad, he's always told me, he's like, don't give her the power. Don't give the power to the ones that have hurt us. Don't let it just forgive and move on. Yeah. But I mean, and that's just cheap forgiveness. Yes. But also I'm literally sitting here, I can't even concentrate really because I'm like, I don't think I've ever forgiven her. I don't think I've ever truly sat down and was like, what am I forgiving you for? And that is a lot to process for a second because it's like I can now I the list is just going, going, and going in my brain.

SPEAKER_00 45:00

Well, in doing that, we validate the pain we've gone through. Right. Because when I'm forgiving, if I know what I'm forgiving for, now I can feel like, okay, this is something specific that I'm forgiving for. It's not just like a blanket forgiveness. Right. And I think sometimes, honestly, in the church, we are taught you need to forgive because Jesus forgave you.

SPEAKER_01 45:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 45:22

And it's more of a command. It's more of a, and yes, God does want us to forgive, but I think it's so that we can actually experience that freedom and healing. And, you know, even when your birth mom obviously can't ask you for forgiveness. Right. Um, but we don't have to have the other person asking us to release and do the forgiveness. Right. Jesus on the cross, he said, Father, forgive them because they don't know what they're doing. And so in that moment, it's, I like to use the visual of unforgiveness as like an umbilical cord. And it's an umbilical cord between you and the person or event or institution where there's been hurt. And where an umbilical cord is meant to bring life and it's it's meant to bring nutrition and health. When we connect ourselves to the hurt, it actually pulls the nutrition out of us, it causes resentment. We ruminate and it connects us to the other person, and only we can cut that cord. But we can. We're the ones that can say, I'm choosing to release that. This is what I'm releasing, and I'm choosing to release that. And now my brain doesn't have to remember it. Right. Because with unforgiveness, our brain tries to remember it. I have to remember so I'm not hurt again. I have to remember what happened. And when we cut that cord, it's it's not that we just automatically forget, but when we remember, we do it without bitterness, without pain.

SPEAKER_01 46:54

And that is, and that is the important thing about forgiveness is when the memories do come up and you are thinking about it, it's like it doesn't have that hold on you. It's just like, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:06

Well, and when when a memory, and I'm not trying to make this a therapy session for you.

SPEAKER_01 47:10

No, I love this. This is this is the this is what it's supposed to be.

SPEAKER_00 47:13

But hopefully somebody else that's hearing this will be able to. This is what God wanted us to talk about. So you know, when a memory comes up and you feel that hurt, rather than projecting that and blaming the other person, it's actually going on the inside and it's holding yourself accountable. It no, it's it's literally, let's say you said you were nine years old when you're when your birth mom passed. Okay. So some of those moons may be an eight or a nine-year-old Natasha. Oh, yes, I can't. And in those, in those times in that hurt, it's being able to go and it's being able to give yourself what your birth mom couldn't give you.

SPEAKER_01 47:50

Yeah. Don't hug that little child.

SPEAKER_00 47:52

Whether it's holding yourself, whether it's saying, you know what, your hurt's valid. I hear you, I see you. Um, and and it's attending to that hurt because we actually get to be a part of our own healing.

SPEAKER_01 48:04

So now with us talking about forgiveness, I never looked at it the way that you've described it as figure out what you are forgiving. Yeah. Because you have to figure out what those things are to be able to heal and move forward. We don't want to just do a glaze forgiveness.

SPEAKER_00 48:26

I the way that you brought all of that together is You know, and when you say figure out what you're forgiving, I think it's it goes back even further. Okay. And it's I have to figure out what I'm grieving. Gotta go back to the grieving steps. Yeah. What is it that I am, what is it that I'm sad about? What is it that um is bothering me? What keeps coming up? Right. You know, because there are going to be opportunities. And this is where, you know, people like, hey, I wanna, I I laughed when you said I want to just heal fast. Um just let once and done, admit it and quit it. Exactly. And it's more about it's a it's a journey and it's a process, it's not a one-time event. It's not gonna be, okay, whew, I'm healed from that. That's over, that's done. Um, there are gonna be different times and moments and seasons in your life when you will be reminded of something and it's like, this is the way it should have been, and I'm grieving another layer. Right. So it's not like it's just the whole kit and caboodle all at one time.

SPEAKER_01 49:30

1000%. So I think now what I'm gonna try to do, and I hope this motivates anybody who's listening today, that if you're grieving someone and you are angry with someone, that you can just start from the first step that you have shared with us today and get on that journey. Because something that my I call my stepmom mom. So my mom, she's always told me that it's the it's just the most freeing feeling just to forgive, but also to it's so exhausting to carry hate or anger around. And that is like a brick that a lot of people carry on the back of their shoulders. Yeah. So if there's someone listening today that is going through that, yeah, what would you say to them?

SPEAKER_00 50:25

You know, I think that there's a part of when you talk about the brick people carry, it's hurt hearts can become hard hearts. And when you're feeling yourself carrying this and it feels like my heart is hardened, right, or I've numbed it. I think that there's a part of being able to go back and say, okay, what's the hurt underneath the heart? And that's the part most people don't like to deal with because it hurts. Um, but in honoring that, there's actually it's painful to go revisit it, but it's also very freeing. It's it's also very, it's like a surgery. Right. Um, you know, when we uh when you use the words, when we do like the blanket forgiveness, right? It's a little bit like I've got a wound in my arm and like the the skin has closed, but there's gangrene underneath it. It's like we want to get to the root of it and continue. We want to continue revisiting that until it no longer, it no longer has the same sting of pain. It's, you know, when I think about my story, um, I can think back to it and I can be sad. It's like I can even be angry. I can be angry that shouldn't have happened. I'm angry that happened, but I'm not like angry at a person. I'm not angry, I'm not holding that, I'm angry at the situation, but it's more I'm sad. Right. It makes me sad. And but I don't know that I want that sad to go away. Because that because that sad um honors the story. I don't walk around sad in those moments. When I allow myself to feel sad, man, I'm really, really sad that that happened. Okay. It's not days I walk around that it may be moments, but it's in saying that, yeah, that is sad.

SPEAKER_01 52:16

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 52:17

All of our feelings, it's like people try to push away from their feelings. They do. But all of our feelings are okay. Jesus had every feeling. And so it's okay to feel sad, and I don't have to fix it. Right. It's just honoring and saying, Yeah, it is sad. I wish it were different. I wish that hadn't happened. And it's sad. Yeah. And that's the end of it.

SPEAKER_01 52:38

Right. What boundaries are important during the healing process?

SPEAKER_00 52:42

I think the the first boundary I would say is be careful who you listen to. Okay, yeah. Um, especially because when you are hurting, you're going to have people come around you that empathize with you, good guy, bad guy. Yes, right, wrong. And it's one of those things that where it's well-meaning, it doesn't mean it's really helpful. Right. So really guard, guard who you share your vulnerabilities with. Do find somebody that is healthy. I always go back to begin with the licensed therapist. Yes, go to therapy. Therapy's good people. Well, well, it's somebody that can help you hold your story, but doesn't have the same emotional connection to you as friends would. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 53:28

And they're not like in your everyday circle. So it's just a more of like a safe place. Yes. Of that. So that would be boundary number one. What would be boundary number two?

SPEAKER_00 53:37

Um, I think in in healing, I think another boundary is maybe. And do you know who the biggest boundary breakers are? Who? Ourselves. We we blow through our own boundaries all the time. We don't enforce them. We are the biggest boundary breakers. Um, and the reason that made me think of that is the biggest boundary is quit trying to rush the healing. And we're the ones that break that boundary. I want to feel better right now, right today. And it's saying, you know what? One is I'm gonna give myself that space to actually feel and process and and make sure I'm still on the healing journey. But so many times people will say things like, Well, aren't you over that by now? Oh. Um, or they will hate when people say that. They will minimize things and they will say, Well, at least, well, at least this didn't or it did happen. And so I think it's just there's no cookie cutter. So don't push past, don't rush yourself to heal. Just make sure you're doing the next right step to heal. Love that.

SPEAKER_01 54:44

And do you have another, do you have a third one for us?

SPEAKER_00 54:47

Oh, you're pushing me. Yeah, I know you're pushing me. Um I think that, you know, guarding your heart is so important, but that goes back to guarding, guarding what I am listening to, what I am seeing, what guarding my heart. Your environment. Guarding my environment, but also guarding my heart and saying, what is it that my heart needs right now?

SPEAKER_01 55:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 55:15

Um, I may, especially in the beginning, parts of healing, is, you know, the very first days where I, you know, was was coming up for air, everything had happened. I didn't feel like getting out of bed. I didn't feel it's easy for depression to set in. Um, and I think it's it's I don't know that necessarily call it a boundary, but I think that there's a part of saying, um, not going just in what my feelings are, because I didn't feel like getting out of bed, didn't feel like eating, didn't feel like being around people, but those are things that weren't helpful for me. So whether it is, you know, taking the next step, going and sitting in the sunlight, right? Whether it is making sure even if I'm not hungry, I've got some healthy snacks. Um, making sure I'm getting rest, but I'm not just sleeping today to escape my feelings. I love all three of those. Those were so. I know that the last one was really as much a boundary, but I think it's more uh, you know, people are are the boundaries is like the B word now. Yes. Yes, it is. It's like don't cross my boundary. Uh yes. And people abuse it too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's really honoring is setting boundaries with yourself, what I will or won't do, um, how automatically accountable and holding boundaries because I never even thought about it.

SPEAKER_01 56:36

We are the biggest boundary breaker. Absolutely. With in every aspect. Absolutely. So I just I love that because I do think it's very important that we say that. Yeah. Because I mean, no one wants to admit their faults, but I mean, let's dig deep.

SPEAKER_00 56:54

We are our biggest and we make excuses for it. Yes. It's okay if I cross my boundary. It's just not okay if you cross my boundary.

SPEAKER_01 57:02

And that's the human side of us. How do you forgive someone who never apologized?

SPEAKER_00 57:09

Yeah. Um, I think that that's a part of, well, and going back to your story with your birth mom. Yeah. I think when somebody doesn't apologize, um, it's recognizing that I'm not bound to that. Now, sometimes our pride gets in the way. Right. Let me give you an example. I was hurt with my adult children because they didn't include me in something. And I just felt really the stirring inside me that was like, okay, am I gonna forgive them? And my initial knee-jerk reaction is, well, no, I need to be quiet for a little bit and punish them and make sure that they know what they did was wrong and bothered me. And it's it's like we get into this game playing, and it's like I want them to ask me to forgive them. But I ask you, are you upset, mom? Well, they did. They asked me if I was upset, and when I was like, Well, this is what it is, the response was kind of like, oh, oh, that's it. Oh, okay. And so I did more damage than good. Oh my god. Because your feelings weren't hurt. My feelings. My feelings were hurt. And so in that instance, there is a part of when I can forgive somebody that doesn't ask me, how freeing is that for me? I don't have to stay with that hurt. I don't have to nurse it. I don't, and and sometimes that's the healthiest thing because lots of people may not ask you. And I don't want to be held in bondage. I can't forgive you if you don't ask me. It's like now I don't have to go to you. I don't have to say, Well, I forgave you, because that can cause a problem too if you're not asking for forgiveness. But I can do that work on the inside of me.

SPEAKER_01 58:49

You don't always have to have an apology.

SPEAKER_00 58:52

You do not have to have somebody, you know what? I have never had my ex-husband has never asked me, would you forgive me? I've I have not had a conversation with him since the day he went to jail that night. You have not spoken to him or seen him. I have not spoken or seen him since that day. And I can in all honesty say I have absolutely forgiven him because it wasn't contingent on whether he was sorry or not.

unknown 59:17

Right.

SPEAKER_00 59:17

It was I wanted to release that anger. I wanted to free myself. So you do not have to wait for somebody to ask you.

SPEAKER_01 59:25

You don't. You really don't. That is that I remember you saying that when you were sharing your testimony at Daughters, but just rehearing it again and do you do you ever think back in that moment when everything happened with your ex-husband that day, that when you were in the middle of it, did you ever think, How am I going to move on from this?

SPEAKER_00 59:57

In that moment, no, because I was really just trying to survive a situation by the situation afterwards. Um I I think that um initially the questions were, how will life ever be the same again?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:14

Right. How will life ever be the same again? And I think of people that have experienced trauma, yeah, such as a death, yeah, an assault. I think that's one of the questions that we ask ourselves is how is life going to be the same? For example, earlier you said you were scared. This the world is not a safe place.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:31

It's like, well, I remember thinking, will I ever smile again? That was a that was a question that I had. And it wasn't that I was looking for an answer, but there was a thought, will I ever smile again? Will I ever be happy again? Right. Um, but I do want to clarify something because not a lot of people um comparatively have gone through those really big traumas traumas. Yeah. And there's a difference between what's called a big T trauma or a little T trauma. Okay. Kind of like the first letter teaches. Well, a big T trauma is going to be the life-threatening like hurricanes, floods, assaults, kidnappings, deaths, wars. Um, little T traumas can be the things that maybe are not life-threatening, but they're life-altering. Oh, okay. It can be, you know, hey, I've been bullied, you know, in school. It can be my parents divorced. It can be I was betrayed by a friend. Um, and some of those things that I'm saying can be on either one because trauma is not what happened to you, it's how it impacted you. Oh, amen. And so I think that we just as humans, we have to be really careful that we don't get into one upping or judging or saying, Oh, you went through that. Well, let me tell you about this terrible thing I went through that's even worse. Yes. And it's more, we don't know how something impacted somebody. Right. And so that's that's what trauma is, is when it impacts the way I view God, myself, and others.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:02

And thank you so much for clarifying that because that is so true.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:07

Yeah, yeah. My favorite, my favorite um thing to say is that there's no pain Olympics. There is no pain Olympics. Pain is pain is pain. Right. Right. It doesn't matter how big or how small. That's right. Even though what I went through was considered a big T trauma, you know what? I felt scared. You have felt scared. Right. I felt betrayed. You have felt betrayed. Yeah. So it's not saying, well, my feelings are bigger than yours. It's just saying they both are.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:36

They both are. And you just have to wow. That's right. We are in therapy today, guys. We are in therapy. Wow. Okay. I love that. I didn't even think about it like that. And I think that's so important to understand because I do feel that in today's society, people do not they try. I don't want to say they try to one up everybody. Sure. But I mean it's like, okay, this happened to me, this happened to you. Oh, okay, that happened to me too. Or let me tell you my my dog got ran over or something. Like, you know what I'm saying? So everyone's trauma.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:15

Yeah. And some of that is because of validation. Yes. We just we want to make sure that ours is validated.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:23

Why do you feel that people that have been hurt want that validation? What do you think that I mean, as as an is your therapy, therapist brain? Because for so long I wanted to feel validated for Robin or from Robin.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:41

Because if I'm validated, it means that it meant something. Oh, that is so true. It means that there was impact. It means that my feelings mattered. You know, I I distinctively remember the first time I went to the grocery store after everything had happened. And I just like wanted the world to know what had happened to me, to just justify and validate me and have everybody put their arms around me. Now I didn't do that. But there was a part of part of me wanted to not be seen. Right. And then the other part is like, I want to see. I want to be seen. Right. Right. I I this wasn't okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:23

And you just wanted to feel validated.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:25

Yeah. It's it's just saying, hey, what what happened to me mattered. So when you talk about Robin, it's like, what happened to me mattered.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:33

And you know, another thing I want to point on before we before we wrap up is that don't let your trauma define the person that you are. I feel, and I have been guilty of this. Um, I remember when I was a little girl, I would always use the excuse, oh, my mom died, my mom died, my mom died, she was a drug addict, oh, I've done this, I've I mean I've been through this, been through that. And now that I am an adult, I'm 34 years old, I'm working on my mental health, all of the things now. I look back and I say, okay, yes, you went through that, but that's not your story, and that's not going to define you. So don't let that be the anchor that holds you back. And I just hope and pray that people will be able to hear this and hear your story and hear a little bit about Robin and don't don't sit in it.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:31

Yeah, yeah. You know, right after everything happened, I would have to go down to the victim witness center because there was a crime, and I would have to check in to make statements. And I'll never forget that when I went in to check in one of the first times, there was an arrow on the paper that I was supposed to sign and it said victim sign here. And something inside me just I felt myself getting angry. And I thought. I have a name. And I thought the word victim is not going to be my defining story. This is not, this is not the only thing about me that has happened. And in that moment, I decided that that day I was a victim. I'd give myself that. But from that day forward, I had been victimized, but I wasn't going to stay in that, kind of like wearing that name badge that said, I'm a victim. Right. Because that's how we get stuck. Yes. And it's more this bad thing happened, and there's more to the story. What do I do with it? It's like, what next? What now? That's why when I said when I wrote my book, part of my story, well, the way the news had it was here's a woman that was hurt. And it was like, yes, there was a woman that was hurt. But the real story is I wanted people to know, but you know what? You do the work, you run to the Lord, and you get healing. So I like to say the real story is here's a woman who was healed.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:03

Did you ever have like a maybe like a sense of peace of knowing? Because he already knew. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:08

He knows our plan.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:09

He knows everything that we're going to go through. And you look back and be like, okay, I understand.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:15

I knew that God walked beside me. And I knew he guided you to where you are today. I knew that when I surrendered to him and said, okay, I'm coming to you. What now? I knew God would lead me and guide me. Right. And it was, I, and I remember saying, in the emergency room, I actually met with a detective on my case about a year later. And she asked me, she says, Do you remember what you told me in that emergency room? And I said, No, I don't remember that day. And she said, You looked at me and you said, I will not let this experience go to waste. I will be a better therapist because of it. That is what I am saying. Yes. And so I think that there, but even those moments, those are, those are decision moments. That when bad things happen, because the Bible promises we're going to go through hard, bad things. It says, the Bible says, you know, when you're walking through through the hard times, Psalm 23 says, Yay, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, you're, I'm, I'm with you. I'm not leaving you. And so I think that when we recognize no matter what we're walking through, um, God's there. And so when people ask me, so where was God? And we say it like it's an accusation, like God wasn't there. But you know, I say God was there the whole time because I believe the Holy Spirit nudged me that night before everything happened to get up and lock my bedroom door. Had I not done that, I don't think I would be here. Um, because my ex-husband was intoxicated. Right. And and I don't know what he would have done if I was sleeping. So when the bedroom door crashed down off the hinges, I was immediately awake. Um, God was there in the late night text messages that I got from friends. I just like two days afterwards, I got a late-night text message from a friend that had never been in my home. And she said, I just can't keep, you know, I keep getting the scripture coming to me, and I just feel like I'm supposed to give it to you. And it was the one in in um, I think it's in Deuteronomy. I could be wrong, but it says that the Lord will fight for you. All you need to do is be still. But what she didn't know is that sign was on my wall, my bedroom wall, and a bullet had hit above it, and a bullet had hit below it. And that was a scripture that I had held to ever since my divorce. And so it was a part of God was there in somebody sending me the scripture. God was there when when people would bring me food. God was there in my job giving me gracious time off. God was there. It's like every time I turned around, God's hand was working. And this is where I go back to the story where Jacob wrestles with the angel in the Bible. And in the morning, he wakes up and he says, Surely the presence of the Lord was in this place, and I didn't even know it. And I think that when we look for where is God, and we ask him, Lord, show me where you were, yeah, he will show you.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:21

I think that is so true because I do, I do feel when people are going through the dark times, or if something tragic happens, or they ask themselves, why did God let this happen? Why did God let this happen? And I think that's what I was just trying to say of like everything happens for a reason. Everything happens for a reason in God's will. And I, and if you are just still and you're just quiet, you can see those signs of the Holy Spirit and how he is with you and how he's within these walls right here, right now, while we're while we are doing this episode.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:57

Um I'd like to, I have a visual example that I like to use. Please. And that is when I took one of my daughters, um, she was getting ready to go to kindergarten. This is many years ago, 30 years ago. Um, she had to get her immunizations. And I took her to the place where they were doing the immunizations, and she looked at me with these big crocodile tears, kind of like, Mom, why are you letting this happen to me? And I looked down at her and I put her sweet little face in both my hands, and I got down into her face and I said, I want you to look into my eyes. I said, Mommy's here, and I'm not going anywhere. I said, Hold on to mommy. And I think that that's what the Lord says to us when we're going through those hard times. It is, look into my eyes, stay focused on me. I am your Abba father, which means daddy, and I am not going anywhere. And I think that that's the part of knowing, I and I think that that's why no matter what life brings, there's the confidence that says we don't walk it alone.

unknown 1:12:07

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:08

Amen. Oh my gosh. God has really put some beautiful things on your heart to share with us today. And I I just hope and pray that if someone is here listening right now and you are going through something deep, hard, heartbreaking that you are heard, you are seen, and that you will get over the hump. We just gotta walk through it. So if there was one last piece of advice to our listeners today, what would you give them?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:44

Yeah, um, I like to say that there is no story that is too far gone that God can't come in and restore and redeem it. Yeah. It is, you know, things have happened to us in life. But when we turn those over to the Lord and, you know, just really run to him, I like I like to use the phrase that when I first went through everything, I felt like Princess Cinderella in the beginning, but then I turned into Humpty Dumpty. Okay. And I felt like all the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put my heart back together again. But then I ran to the King of Kings. And when we run to the King of Kings, it is that's where we find healing. That's where we find wholeness. And so if somebody's listening and they're hurting, run to the Lord, not away from him.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:40

Run to him, please, because I'm thinking emotional. He saved my life. I would not be sitting here today with you doing this podcast if it wasn't for him and the Holy Spirit, and I I probably have mentioned this on every episode so far, but it's such the moment that I realized what the Holy Spirit was and how that and how he was working in my life and what he was doing was something that I will forever just cherish. That and I remember running out of church. I was literally running out of a service, and I ran up to Angel and I said, Oh my gosh, this is what this has been this whole time. But I knew when I saw my healing journey, I finally went to my mom, got for help, I got um asked for help, got on my medication, started my therapy, but something felt like it was missing in my healing journey. And the first time I took Rowan to the playground at church, he was just whispering. But then it was just it was a moment that I will forever be grateful for. So I just want our stories and our testimonies to motivate and hopefully put some hope out there for you that there is a God that loves you and that he is mighty and he is so powerful, and he uh wants us to be okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:33

And he's present, and he's always with us. He says, Come to me, come to me, all who are weary and heavy laden. Yeah, take my yoke upon you, learn from me, I'll give you rest.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:47

Amen. So, last thing, I ask all my guests this question in your the gist of everything that we've discussed today. What is the one thing that you can find the beautiful chaos in within all of that?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:04

I think that um what I walk away from is we all have chaos in our lives. Yes, we all have different stories, but the thread that runs through it is that God takes our chaos and he turns it into something beautiful. Oh, you're gonna make me cry. He turns it into a masterpiece and a work of art that says to you, it was chaos. To me, it's like he transforms that into beauty.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:39

I'm so grateful that you're here today with me.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:42

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:44

I uh wow, what a full circle moment all of this is. So uh thank you so much for sharing your heart and your wisdom and your faith with us today. Your story is such a reminder that healing is possible. And that is what I want our listeners to hear today, even after the deepest loss, betrayal, and heartbreak, you can have that healing. And I could speak on both of our behalf today. Anyone who's listening, who is carrying pain, grief, and forgiveness, I hope this episode can remind you that you are not alone. Healing takes time, forgiveness takes courage, and God walks with us through it all. If today's episode touched you, please share it with a friend who might need it. And also please do not forget to check out Kimberly's book, Healing from the Life as Deep as Hurts. I will have the link on all of our platforms. Kimberly, thank you so much for being with us here today. You are, I'm gonna, I am going to hold you very close to my heart. And I'm very grateful for you. Thank you. And thank you for being such a beautiful role model to all of us who look up to you. And it is an honor to be sharing this with you today. Thank you. Um, and I think I just want to say thank you to the beautiful chaos family for being here. Today's episode was emotional, it's deep, but it's something that needs to be talked about. So until next time, beautiful chaos family, please give yourself the grace, trust God with your story and keep choosing, healing. Okay. Clutter is stressful, messy garages, overflowing closets, and chaotic kitchens, moving boxes that never get unpacked. And sometimes it's not that we don't want to get organized, we just don't know where to start. And that's where sorting through it comes in. They're a local Tulsa organizing company that comes into your home and helps you create systems that actually work for your life. From garages to kitchens to closets to pantries to packing and moving help, they take the overwhelm off of your shoulders. They don't judge, they don't rush you, they just help you create a space that brings peace. If you're ready to breathe again in your own home, and if you're ready for less chaos and more calm, reach out to sort through it today because an organized home really can change everything. This episode is sponsored by Polo Grill. When you're craving a dining experience that feels timeless, refined, and truly unforgettable, there is only one place to go. At Polo Grill in Tulsa, every detail matters. From hand cut steaks and fresh seafood to an award-winning wine list and impeccable service, this is where special moments are made. Whether it's a date night, a celebration, or an evening just because Polo Grill delivers classic elegance with modern flavor. Polo Grill Exceptional Dining. This episode is sponsored by L Bell Land and Cattle LLC, your source for the healthiest belted Galloway beef cattle for your table. And remember, always eat beef. This episode is sponsored by Grazy Girl Creative Luxury Catering and Boutique House, bringing luxury charcuterie, beautiful events, and unforgettable experiences. Friends, if you're looking for an amazing charcuterie and a beautiful place to celebrate, you have to check out Grazy Girl. Their boards are next level, perfect for birthdays, showers, bachelorette parties, girls' night, and special occasions. Their boutique house is stunning and every detail is designed to make your event feel special. They even offer gorgeous Airbnb for stay vacations and girls' weekends. So whether you're planning something big or just want to treat your people, Crazy Girl is the place. Go follow them, book them, and see it for yourself. Trust me, you'll love it.