Matt Kayton - Era of Perception

Retention is often framed as a compensation issue. But in many organizations, the real problem is communication.

When what leaders say doesn’t match what employees experience, trust begins to erode. And when trust erodes, retention follows.

In this episode of the People/AI Strategy Forum, Sam Reeve sits down with Matthew Krayton, Founder of Publitics, to explore what leadership looks like in what we call the “Era of Perception.”

As artificial intelligence accelerates change and workplace transparency increases, leaders must recognize that communication is no longer just messaging—it’s a strategic leadership capability.

Sam and Matthew discuss:

• Why leadership communication has become a retention strategy
• How executive presence influences organizational culture
• The growing gap between leadership messaging and employee experience
• Why perception and narrative now shape workforce trust
• How leaders can communicate more clearly in high-change environments

In a world defined by AI, rapid transformation, and rising workforce expectations, how leaders communicate may determine whether talent stays—or leaves.

If you’re responsible for leading teams, shaping culture, or navigating change, this conversation offers practical insights into aligning leadership communication with real workforce experience.

Watch & Follow the People/AI Strategy Forum

Watch on YouTube
   / @peoplestrategyforumpowered5106 

Follow the Podcast
https://www.buzzsprout.com/2571923/fo...

Podcast Website
https://www.buzzsprout.com/2571923

Apple Podcasts
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast...

Spotify
https://open.spotify.com/show/1GUvgS9...

CompTeam Podcast Page

If you enjoyed this episode, follow the People/AI Strategy Forum on your preferred podcast platform and join the conversation! 

About the People/AI Strategy Forum
The People/AI Strategy Forum explores how leaders navigate the intersection of people strategy, leadership, and artificial intelligence. Hosted by Sam Reeve, Founder & CEO of CompTeam, the Forum features conversations with executives, practitioners, and experts shaping the future of work.

Learn more about CompTeam and the People/AI Strategy Forum at compteam.net.

Transcript

0:01

What if your employee retention isn't just about reality, it's about perception. The story your people believe on Monday morning can keep top talent or send them looking. So welcome to the People Strategy Forum. I'm Sam Reeve, your host, and CEO of comp team, where we help organizations design people-centered total rewards that attract and keep top performers. Today we're digging into a timely edge, leading in the era of perception. We will discuss how smart messaging retains top talent. And our guest today is Matt. Matt Creighton, founder of Publix, a strategic communication firm that helps leaders shape narratives, navigates, crisises, and helps build trust in those noisy environments that we have today. Your best people are evaluating every day and every single week based on the messages they hear. Informal or informal, whether they're going to stay or go in your organization. So crafting communication in a crisis is important. We'll translate com communication strategies into manager ready moves, clear frames faster rumor control. Better storytelling and also making sure that we have a way that we can measure the impact and, and engagement and retention. So let's get practical with communication. Welcome Matt Crichton. Thanks Sam for having me. Yes. So Matt, uh, so tell, tell me. I mean, the first thing that we, we, we like to dive into here, of course, is learning a little bit about. About you, about your, your story, how, how you got to where you are today. So, uh, how did you get to, to helping leaders navigate crisis? Yeah, so I'll, I'll try to give you the bridge version, uh, of, of this. But, uh, it, it was sort of a, a roundabout story, uh, in, and what I like to call sort of the quintessentially millennial kind of, uh, story about how. Uh, how I got into where, uh, where I am today. So I, uh, actually went to college. I thought I was gonna be a history teacher, so, uh, high school social studies went through the whole thing. So undergrad history, minor in political science, did a master's degree in education. Uh, student teaching. And then in 2008, uh, there was a financial crisis. So what ended up, uh, happening was there were a ton of budget cuts across the board, uh, in, in education. Uh, so there were no jobs, uh, at that point, or very few jobs as a recent graduate who I guess made the mistake of getting a master's degree at that time. I was actually a very expensive recent grad too, based on how the contracts work. So. Applied to probably like, I don't know, 150, 200 jobs, uh, nothing. You're up against, you know, teacher, very, very good teachers who had seven years experience. I was like, you know what? I have to figure out something else. So I had some familiarity and interest in politics, uh, and um. So during grad school, I had done a graduate assistantship with a public opinion polling institute that measured a public opinion on various, uh, topics like, uh, public policy, different politicians, uh, campaigns even. So it was like, oh, this is kind of interesting. That kind of took a back. Burner though, uh, because you know, out of out of school you have bills to pay, uh, suddenly, right? So real world kind of comes at you quick and I was like, you know, I better take the first job that comes my way. So I ended up taking a job with the university that I had gone to, uh, doing fundraising. Um, now the uh, interesting thing is it was fundraising. For young alum or among young alumni, right? So my job was to sit in a windowless room, making phone calls through, uh, lists of young alumni asking them for money. As you can imagine, in the wake of a financial crisis, uh, people were not all that receptive to opening up their wallets at that point and had, uh, a lot of creative things to say to me as, as they were trying to get me off the phone. So, uh, you know, appreciate it. You know, I was, I was in very much the same position as they were, so. Uh, needless to say that didn't work out. And 10 months later the board of trustees decided to lay off both of the positions that they had created to do this job. So, uh, 10 months into my first postgraduate job, I was. Laid off, right? So I'm like, uhoh, what am I gonna do? So I had this crazy idea, why don't I just become a political consultant? So get into politics. Uh, like I had originally, uh, or, or I had some, uh, some of the, you know, seeds were planted obviously in grad school and, and a little bit of undergrad. So, uh, long story short, you know, filed the paperwork, started an LLC and started reaching out to folks to see if they would hire me. Uh, and, and I was lucky at the time, uh, because social media was becoming kind of a big, big thing. Uh, so in 2008, that was really the. One of the first elections where you saw Facebook kind of becoming a thing and campaigns, the Obama campaign utilized it. So I was like, you know what, I'm young people will trust me to do social media. So I went out and sent'em to your social media to a couple of campaigns. Uh, and to my surprise, if few of them bit, they were like, yeah, you are young. You must know what you're doing. I'm like, yep, I sure, sure. So. Ended up getting into that. Um, and then, uh, you know, fast forward a bit, you know, kept doing campaigns, networking, doing larger and larger campaigns. So from Congress on up to, uh, uh, campaigns supporting, uh, folks running for governors statewide office, and then, uh, all the way up to the presidential level in, in 2020. So we've worked with leaders in a variety of spaces, uh, in, in the political sphere, which, which I like to say is sort of like starting a business. It's like a startup except, uh, you throw everything into a pressure cooker and you put a time timer on it, and if you don't accomplish those things, by the time the timer is done, you're gonna lose. Right? Yeah. So, so it's very similar to that. So, um, around 2014, uh, started to transition into doing a, uh, work in the, in the private sector as well. So, um, you know, started working on public affairs issues. So, uh, campaigns that are meant to. Uh, you know, communicate around public policy. And then that translated into doing, uh, a lot of crisis communication. So helping leaders, executives, elected officials, uh, you know, anyone in, in sort of a, in the public eye, uh, work through crisis situations, motivate their teams. Um, and so it's through that work that, um, you know, just started having conversations around. What it means to not only communicate as a leader, but also develop that presence of mind that that is required as a leader too. So, recently actually launched a second, uh, consulting firm that's focused on, on the sort of presence of leadership and the internal work that needs to be done there, uh, called M two Aspire as well. So it's sort of an outgrowth of those things. So we have the communications piece, like how do you say and what should you say? How do you say what you need to say? And then the how do you get into a head space to actually do the things that you need to do. So it's, it's been an interesting journey. So anyway, that was the abridged version. There were, there were a lot of, uh, ups and downs in between, but uh, yeah, so that's, that's my story. Yeah. So I, I imagine that, I mean, of course, and when we're thinking about, uh, politics, I mean, it's a, it's a, it's, it's a very hot area, right? And, and, and of course, as you mentioned, there's deadlines that, that, uh, you have to deal with, you know, as far as. Uh, you know, the election comes up and you have to have your message and, and everything is impacting at that particular time. Uh, and so in the, in the, uh, company environment, there can be, there can be those deadlines as soon, uh, uh, as well. There could be deadlines as well, but, but usually not as an intense, so what are the, the, the differences that you see between, uh, a political, uh, type of PR and, and versus what you see in the, uh, corporate world? Had you asked me this question a few years ago, um, really prior to 2016, I would've been able to highlight more differences for you. I think those two worlds are converging a bit. Um, so if you think about politics, again, it's, it's. An incredibly fast-paced environment. You have that, um, that sort of deadline, I think, you know, looking quarter to quarter for most businesses, uh, trying to figure out how to, um, you know, uh, hit the benchmarks that you're trying to hit. You're on a sort of similar playing field in terms of things changing, uh, as quickly as they are, right? So you have new technologies that are driving that. You have a new information that's that environment that's, that's driving that. Um, in, in addition to that, in, in the political sphere, I would've said one of the. Bigger differences is, you know, you have these issues that become. Polarized and that, again, over the last, you know, 15 to 20 years has become more, more apparent in, in our politics, but issues right off the bat where, you know you're going to have a position on something or a message on something and the, there's a real possibility that half of the population or voting public is going to either love it or hate it. Right. And. So that polarization, right? You're already dealing with that mental frame, going into it on, on some of these very, very hot button issues in the political context, right? It's like they, they, you know, the old saying never talk about religion or politics around the Thanksgiving table, right? And you see all the, the tips about like talking with, you know, your Uncle Harry about, you know, whatever, political or avoiding those conversations altogether. And, and there's a reason for that. People get very passionate around it. People have deeply held, uh, opinions that are essentially tied to identity, their identity as a human being in those spaces, in a business setting. I think there are a lot of, uh, or had been sort of a lot of nuts and bolts sort of operational things, uh, that are important, uh, that people have opinions around, but not as, as strongly held or, or polarized or as tied into identity as, as you have in. In the political sphere. I think that's changing quite a bit. Right? So now as both of those areas converge and you're talking about operational issues in a business, uh, for example, hiring practices, uh, diversity initiatives, you know, things that are meant to, uh, make, you know, your workforce more reflective of, um, you know, of, of the, the customers or, or, or clients that you serve. Um, I think those things, those worlds are in fact colliding. Where, where you have to navigate as a leader, you have to navigate those really. Hot button issues. And then, um, and, and also too, where as a, a forward facing business, you have to figure out how to communicate your values in a way, uh, that. Might not square neatly with, uh, a hostile, macro political or regulatory environment that, that you're facing. Right? Yeah. I I think there's, there's a lot less predictability in that space as well, which filters down into, into workforce. Um, so, so I would say, uh. The, you know, there still are some differences, but it's, they're becoming a lot less clear. Those lines are becoming blurred. And I'm not saying that, you know, we should seek out the, the sort of political model of things. cause I don't think in the way that our politics are structured today, and, and again, the political information environment, we're able to have. Nuanced conversations around what are complex issues. That's, that's not actually very constructive to, to not be able to have those nuanced conversations. So like, I wouldn't, I wouldn't aspire to to that necessarily, but, but it is the reality that we're living in. So the question is like, how do we, in my mind, how do you preserve some of that nuance in, in a, um. You know, a business or corporate mm-hmm. Uh, organizational setting where, you know, you don't necessarily have to buy into all of it, but, but again, I think those lines are becoming a lot more blurred than they used to be. Yeah, so and so let, let's dig into that a bit and, and so what we'll do is we'll take a, you know, um, um, a, a pre-crisis approach of how businesses compare and then, uh, um, during crisis and then post-crisis. And so let's just, uh, have a scenario. So there's, there's a, a company that is, wants to be. Proactive know, they know that they have an important reputation, they need to protect and they want to be, uh, ready for or crisis ready. And so what are the steps that an an, an employer can take to ensure that their environment is resilient and they're ready for a crisis even before it occurs? Yeah. So I think the first part to start with is getting really clear on values. Like what are your values as a company? And, and really drilling, drilling into that. Um, because you know, when you're, when you're talking to your team, your employees, your, um, even your customers, right? Like the, the idea is that they understand what those things are, right? Like you, you have communicated clearly enough to know what exactly that company stands for. Uh, and if you don't have a good sense of what those values are, or. Um, and or have having some sense of what values are pretty much non-negotiables for you as, as a brand, as a company, as a leader, then, um, then you're gonna find yourself in trouble, right? So get really clear on, on, on what those things are and what you stand for. The, the second part, and, and this sort of goes back to the mindset piece of things in, in my mind, is. As a leader, getting comfortable with the fact that you are not going to make everyone happy. So the question is, who, who do you have to try to make happy? Or what segments of your audiences do you have to try to make happy because you're not gonna make everyone happy. Yeah. And if you try to do that, that is a road to hell. Um, which we see in, in politics, right. I think there, there's a lot of, uh, this sense like in a campaign where, um, you're, you're dealing with, again, various factions of a coalition on things and. And there's a lot of splitting the baby that goes on, and that's, that's not the way to move and you're going to piss some people off that, that that is the reality of, of the situation. So I think as a leader in your leadership team. Getting very comfortable being in that mindset of, okay, we're not gonna make everyone happy, but like there are segments that we do have to make happy. Who are our customers? Who are the people who show up to work every day and, and give, you know, give it their all at work. Um, and, and how do we need to communicate with those audiences, uh, critically. And then you start layering in. So you almost do sort of like an influence map, right? So, you know, you start with your internal team, you start with your external messaging, and then you layer in audiences on top of that. So your customers, and then you go to, okay, we have regulators, we have, um, you know, uh, sort of the political environment we have. You know, overall public opinion, right? So, and then kind of ranking those things ahead of time, trying to figure out, okay, where do we need to be really good and what are the things that we're willing to just be like, you know what, we might take a little heat here for the moment, but that's, that's okay. So I would say that's, that is step one is, is just having a really strong foundation based on the values of, of the organization. Um, and I think that goes missing sometimes. Or, or, or not even missing, but taken for granted. I think, again, as a leader, someone who started a company. It's like you, you kind of internalize those things, but you forget that you have to drill it. It's an exercise. You flex the muscle. So that's, that's where I would start. So really identifying your stakeholders that are critical to the organization's success and, uh, and that you need to ensure that you're. You're controlling the narrative or, or helping that go along. And then also, once you are, have identified your, your story, your values or mission, that it's not just a one and done, it's a continual communication to ensure that's reinforced across the, uh, those stakeholders. Is that correct? Absolutely. I mean, it's not just a communication too, you have to live it every day. Yeah. Um, because if there's a disconnect, and we can get into that a little bit later, but if there's a disconnect between what you're communicating and then the lived experience of, of those stakeholders, that also is a huge problem in an organization. So not only do you have to communicate it, but you have to, you have to live the life that you're, that you're saying you're trying to live, uh mm-hmm. Within that organization. Right. So let's go into a particular scenario. So it's like, now, now crisis happens, right? So there's a list, for instance, like a, a, uh, woman to org owned organization or, or, uh, uh, pay fairness centric. cause I deal a lot in, in fair pay and wanna make sure that people are treated fairly. Uh, they get a lawsuit, uh, by, uh, a group of women saying that they've been paid unfairly. And of course, this is part of their story of the, what they stand for. Uh, so what are, during this, this crisis that, that, that comes out, what are the biggest mistakes that you see organizations do as when this crisis arise? Yeah, I mean, I think mistake number one is immediate defensiveness. So this impulse to jump in immediately and say, we didn't do it right, or, you know, this either we're, uh, you know, we, we know that we're innocent or, you know, whatever it is. Like, so this sort of tit for tat like, oh, uh, you know, the accusation, oh, fair, uh, pay is not fair. Um, and, and here, and, and jumping in immediately and be like, no, no, no, no, no, it's fine. Right. So I think that's, that's a huge. Um, issue, uh, you know, uh, denial is, is a huge issue, right? I, I think any knee jerk response generally is a mistake, right? You have to be, you have to be fast, but not in a way where you're, you're communicating in an unconstructive way. So I think, you know, the, the, the first step there would be to assess what you have to say right now and then. Look into, into the issue, right? So, and this is a conversation we've had with clients over the years of there are problem problems and then there are communications problems. So a communications problem is you're just not telling the story about something that you're already doing, right? You're doing all of the right things. You're just not telling a story in a way that's compelling. So what does that look like? How do you message that? How do you frame it? How do you distribute that message in some way? That's easy and that, and typically that's where people think they're bringing us in to help with. Um, sometimes you get in and you realize actually there are problem problems, right? Like you are not living the life that you say you're living in terms of, so if you're an organization, right, and I'm not saying that this is the case here, but it, it could be that you in fact, haven't been compensating certain segments of the workforce fairly. Um, so you have to figure that out, or it's a misunderstanding and, you know, pay is, is sort of stratified in a way that, that makes sense and, and fits the, you know, fits the, the compensation model that you have for that, that business. But you have to figure it out first, right? So you have to figure out, again, do you have a communications problem or do you have a problem? Problem? Mm-hmm. And then of course, you know, in, in that case, like the attorneys get involved very, and they're, they're very sensitive to what. You can and cannot say, or should and shouldn't say based on the fact that you very likely will be litigating. But I think also, um, you know, being prepared to, to take accountability, right? So again, perception is reality in some ways. So if you come out again and say like, no, we would never do this, that essentially, uh, discounts the, the lived experience again of these people who are, who are. Suing or taking action, and then perhaps other people in the organization who, who have felt that way, but didn't join in on that particular action. So I think, you know, you have to be sensitive to the fact that you're open to the idea that you, you might be able to improve something rather than just being like, no, no, no, no. I, I would never do that. We're infallible. Everything is fine here. Um, so, so I would say, you know, the biggest mistakes again. Knee response. Um, it, it feels like, again, our immediate environment demands immediate, um, you know, immediate responses. But, but I think. Also too, just thinking, thinking through crisis, we're very uncomfortable in uncertainty too, but like, we don't like situations where there isn't a clear answer on things. So I think in those cases too, getting comfortable with selling uncertainty or the process of, of eliminating that uncertainty. So, um, so again, just communicating around like, here's the process that we're going to go through now in order to address this issue. Right. It doesn't have to say like, I have the answer right now. It's more I have a process. Right? So I think those are, those are the mistakes of like, people just jump in, immediately, get defensive and as a leader, CEO, a public face of a brand, which is, which is again a relatively, um, I mean not new thing, but I think, you know, again, leaders in, in the corporate space are, are finding themselves in the spotlight a bit more in, in that way, uh, you know, your identity, your yourself is sort of tied up in this stuff. So if you feel like you've done a good job and someone says, no, you haven't. The, the impulse, I think is to be like, of course I've done a good job in a lot of ways. Like, ego dies hard, right? Yeah. So I think it's, it's, you know, don't, don't jump in immediately, you know, be, be, um, you know, thoughtful and then, and then be timely, right? So thoughtful, then timely. So, you know, of course. So I think that's a, a great, great advice. You know, you, you, a leader, maybe they see something on the news. They, they get a phone call two minutes later, they know that something's going on and they have to, they have to take action. So who, what are their first steps? I mean, they're, they're, they know not to jump in and be and, and just, uh, uh, defend themselves. They need to, to take some thoughtful action. Is that. Calling their, uh, legal team, you know, reaching out to an expert like you, what are, what is the sequence of events that should have, should take place? I mean, I think it's both, right? So like if, if there's some kind of, um, you know, litigation pending or, or, uh, you know, legal action, then yeah. AB absolutely. You know, you have to call your legal team in. You have to call, uh, you know, your communications people. I think that the, one of the things that people don't do often though is, is they hold off on the communications end of things, rather than viewing it as a piece of the overall sort of C-suite puzzle for how you respond to these. Sorts of thing or, or in general, in any, uh, scenario, a non-crisis scenario, right? Like you do need to have, I think, uh, folks who understand communication and leadership in that way at the table, in a, in a, um, in the sense that I think you need objective advice, or at least you know, things, advice that approaches objective, uh, in, in some of these highly volatile emotional kind of situations. So. Um, so I would say, you know, you, you definitely want to consult the attorneys. You want to, uh, have the communications folks sitting around the table and then. Um, you want to, again, roll out that, that stakeholder map and, and figure out, okay, where are our vulnerabilities in this particular scenario? And then who do we need to bring into the room in order to help address those things? Um, because I mean, you, you will be able to identify that if, if you have that stakeholder map. So again, maybe it's your, you know, COO, maybe it's, uh, some managers or VPs who are, have, uh, interface directly with. Whatever constituency you're, you're talking about in that, in that case. So, um, so those are your first calls. Right. And, and, um, and I would say again, like step back from, step back from the, the smartphone, right? Get off social media. Don't, don't get absorbed in the, in the blow by blow kind of, uh, coverage of this type of stuff, uh, because it will. Eventually blow over. But you can make it a lot worse in, in the moment, especially for yourself, right? You can, you can consume too much and then, then you end up torturing yourself essentially. So I would say that, you know, make your calls and then put the phone down and, and turn the, turn the social media off for, for the time. Let let someone else who has some emotional distance from that handle that piece of it. Mm-hmm. Like you don't have to do that as leader necessarily. Okay, but we all know that communication does have to occur, right? So, and the, and the time is, time is, uh, the clock is ticking, so to speak. I mean, people are waiting for a response. Uh, you've called your legal team, your communications team. You're bringing the right people together for, uh, to reach out to your stakeholders. Is that a, a, like a, a group meeting or, or get everybody on a call? So to ensure that you're, you're, you're speaking, uh, the, the same messaging. I mean, how does that look? Yeah, ab, absolutely. So usually it is a group meeting, and again, a best practice there is to have. Someone designated ahead of time as, as sort of the quarterback of mm-hmm. Of those meetings. Right? And, and that may not be the, the head of the company. Right. That might not be the CEO, it might not be the COO. It could be, again, your, your communications person. It could be a, a trusted advisor, uh, in, in the C-suite. But you want to have that person who is designated quarterback unless there's a subject of, of whatever issue there is, in which case you, you need a, a different quarterback, right? So you definitely need someone with some emotional distance that can kind of. Take you through the steps, uh, of, of that. So usually, and, and usually we recommend keeping that initial conversation in a relatively small circle, and that's not for any other reason than there is such a thing as too much. Information. So, um, you know, I, I mean, picture the last time you were at a, at, at a diner, right? So I'm, I'm from New Jersey and, you know, famous diners, right? And you go into the diner and you get the menu and it reads like War and Peace, right? There are like five or six pages back to back, you know, they're long, you know, foot long menu. So there are a thousand things and having a menu that, that, that is, that large creates some decision fatigue there, right? Because there are so many choices and so many of the things look good. It's hard to choose where, and I think that's what happens in situations like this where you're already feeling kind of, you know, the adrenaline is going, you're in the fight or flight, and then you're trying to assess. All of this information and advice coming at you, and, uh, really you don't, you don't need that much, right? You just need, uh, again, trusted advisors. Your, your sort of, uh, crisis quarterback can call in additional advice where needed, but I would keep it, you know, small circle. To begin with, just to assess that one next step. What, what is that? Is that issuing a statement? Is that, um, you know, taking some action on, on the legal side in, in conjunction with, um, issuing a statement. So, so I think, again, small circle, get, get your, your meeting together. You should have that team. Uh, in place prior to anything happening, right? Know exactly who's going to be in the room when these things happen, rather than trying to, you know, run it up and down the hallway. Like, you, you, you, you, it's, it's, no, we have our, our team. We're gonna put'em in a room and, um, and, and handle it that way. So, uh, typically again, you, you'd gather your, uh, sort of SWAT team, uh, and then, and then, you know, have your, have your quarterback kind of go through the, the plan that you had rehearsed, uh, in step one. I, I like that, uh, that, uh, um, the concept of a crisis quarterback, because, you know, sometimes your CEO is, you know, they're, they feel personally attacked that they, they, they're not in the right mind. They're, they're heated, and then you have, uh, but you have a designated crisis quarter attack and quarterback that is, that is levelheaded can kind of think about the, the multiple facets and can, uh, call the right shots at the right time. Is that, is that the intent? Yeah, a a hundred percent. Yeah. I mean, it, it is, it is very hard to maintain, again, that emotional distance when you are the one. Potentially in the line of fire your organization, something that you built or helped build or, or are, you know, the, the main steward of is, is under fire. So it's, it's very difficult. And then, you know, you have other people in your orbit who are going to be, uh, upset on your behalf, which, which again kind of feeds the fire. So like, if we think about, you know, political campaigns that we've had, like you'll, you know, if your candidate gets attacked, it's very likely that their spouse is going to be very obs. Hmm. Oh, we just lost you, Matthew. So you can get you back. I, I still, you know, don't have your audio. How about now? Oh, there you go. You're back. Okay. It's so strange. I don't know why that's doing that. Yeah, no problem. So you were saying that, uh, you know, so sometimes in a, in a crisis they have their, their, um, you know, their, their spouse. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and, and rightfully so, that, you know, they'll be very upset. And, and their impulse is, is to be protective, obviously.'cause you care about that person, it's like, oh, you have to punch back immediately. Well, I understand that from an emotional perspective and a family perspective, it's not necessarily the most productive crisis management solution. So you're sort of, you want to have someone with that, that separation a little bit, who can just be like, all right, deep breath, let's regain some presence here, and then figure out what that one next step is. Rather than, you know, trying to catastrophize your way through the next, you know, 20 steps. It's, um, it, it's sort of focusing on that one next thing and, and having, again, someone who has a little bit of emotional remove from that situation is, is, is very helpful. So, yeah. So great. So during the crisis, we have a situation where we've, uh, we've, we've, um, reached out to the right people, notified the, the right state stakeholders. We've grouped together our, our team, uh, for the crisis. We've identified the quarterback that's going to kind of, uh, point the shots and, and call the shots here. And, uh, what's next? I mean, is there anything else that has to happen, uh, after and during that execution of, of, uh, that during that crisis. Yeah, so I, I think, uh, then it's, it's really time for the, the deployment of the messaging, right? So making sure that you are. On message constantly, right? And, and you're repeating that message over and over and over again, whatever, whatever that is. Um, so, you know, again, reassuring your workforce, uh, making sure that they're hearing the right things from, from leadership, um, but not just hearing the right things. Also hearing them in a, in a way that's authentic from, I mean, because people can spot from a mile away if, if someone's just going through the motions, right? So a lot of, uh, inappropriate. And effective crisis response depends on the ability of the person delivering the message to do so in an authentic way, to not seem like they are just, uh, performing for a group. It's like they mean it, right? They mean that they are sorry. They mean that they are taking responsibility. They mean that they're going to do better. Uh, if, if that is necessary or in a case where you didn't actually do anything and, and, and it's just. Happens to be a little bit of a fluke or some other type of grievance, you know, working its way up. Um, talking about that in, in a way that doesn't dismiss the feeling of that grievance, but also says like, here, here's what we have in place. And, you know, my door is open to anyone who wants to talk about this, but like, here, here are the, the values. Here are the, the principles by which we operate, and we're gonna continue to do that here. Um, you know, and, and, you know, and of course continue to take responsibility for things that we could do better. Um, so I think, again, that authenticity, the, the ability to, uh, inspire confidence and trust through accountability is, is very important at that point. And, and just continuing to do that over and over and over again. Um, and then not. You know, overexplaining things too. I mean, I think transparency is good. Overexplaining not so good. Hmm. Uh, so just going down rabbit holes with, um, with, with stuff and, and, you know, kind of unfocusing your message, right? You just want, you wanna be very targeted, very transparent, but you don't need to necessarily go into like the, the, you know, really find details of things, you know, keep it high level. Um, again, narrative story. What, what does that arc look like, uh, for folks? Yeah. So I think that's it is sort of then the execution piece of it, and then adjusting as you go along, because you're going to get feedback along the way. So you're gonna be talking to your employees, your team, your, your customers. You're going to, um, you know, see numbers on market share. You're going to, um, you can do, you know, reputation monitoring, right? So, uh, through various, uh, methods. And, and you'll, you'll see how your, your response is landing and, um, and then, and then you'll be able to adjust from, from there. Okay, great. And so, and so as, uh, as things happen in, with media and so forth, they, there's a sensational story. You know, there's, it, it puts your company in a bad light. Uh, you've gone through and the, the crisis and so forth, uh, and now you're into resolution and you found that, that, that the company is in fact at, at no fault. And, uh, but nonetheless, the, the, you know, the, the news media. Is not saying, oh, they, it's, there's nothing sensational about that. So they, there's, it's all silent. So what does the company do to, to, uh, repair their reputation now that you know that they're in the clear? Yeah, I mean, that, that is the trouble, right? Where, uh, you know, the bad news disappears and then, and then, you know, you're kind of left with, with a little bit of a bruised reputation. But no one, no one wants to talk about, about the resolution to that, unfortunately, uh, because it doesn't generate clicks. Um, so, you know, I think. In, in those situations, the best, uh, the best offense is, is some prevention, right? So making sure that you have that brand equity with your core audience externally and internally to withstand those things. So, so, you know, so it's sort of as confined to just a bruise rather than, you know, a broken bone or something, right? Mm-hmm. Right. I think that's, that's number one is, is doing the work every day, uh, regardless of crisis, right? And when one pops up, you know, that you have those strong relationships with, with the folks that you need to have strong relationships with, to, to withstand the storm. Um, so that, that's very important. And then continuing that after the crisis too. So continuing to hammer home what it is, uh, you, you stand for as, as an organization. Um, I think in some cases internally you may want some more touches with your team. Uh, right. So just making sure that they know that you are there as a leader. You're listening, you are working through these issues, you're communicating and you're, you're, you know, helping to right the ship. Um, externally, uh, it's. You know, re uh, you know, kind of resetting marketing, right? So if you're gonna look at your marketing or your external communications, um, you know, you just, you kind of do a quick audit of, of those things and say, okay, where can we, you know, get our message out there, um, in a, maybe a little bit more of a, a robust way. So some of that is paid media at, at this point, because, you know, again, earned, as you noted, earned media is a very difficult space. If, if you know they're done covering you, then that's, that's sort of the end of it. And then also too. Again, being able to tap into external audiences who, again, believe in your organization or brand in a way where, where, you know, you can activate them and they can, they can talk about it. So it's, it's sort of like, you know, influencers, but also, you know, just people, your customers, your, your stakeholders who c who can speak, uh, credibly to, uh, you know, to your message and, and help, um, help that land as well. And I think that's actually very helpful to have, have those. Pieces in place ahead of time as well, so you know, where you can turn and be like, Hey, you know, we're doing this campaign on whatever it is, and, uh, would, would you help us? Uh, but then also too, uh, you know, I think it's, it's, it, there is some nuance there in that you don't necessarily want to re-litigate the issues that got you into that place to begin with. So a lot of this is just turning the page as well. So again, you don't like, if you're a, an organization that prides itself on, on pay equity. You wouldn't necessarily want to dive right back into that and be like, no, we really aren't the organization of, of pay equity. But maybe you highlight, you know, again, employee stories about the, the workplace culture overall and forgetting the compensation for a moment. Right. So, so you kind of pivot to something different that that's a little bit more of a, um, you know, it's different. It's a way into talking about pay equity, but it's not like a, you know, I, I know I'm not right. Type Yeah. Type deal. Um, we call it, actually, it's, it's funny there was, um. A situation years ago in Delaware, uh, where there was a senate race and there was a, a candidate who, um, they dredged up some old MTV footage of her talking about being a, a Wiccan or a witch or something. And, and it, so, uh, she ended up having to, well she didn't have to do this. She probably shouldn't have done this, but she did it in anyway, cut an ad that was basically like, I'm not a witch, I'm you. And it was, so we have this saying like, I'm not, it's sort of the, I'm not a witch response. Like, like have footage of you saying you're a witch, and then you're like, I'm not a witch. That doesn't really square, right? Yeah. Like people aren't gonna buy that. So, you know, you don't wanna, I'm not a wit you want to, you know, pivot and talk about how, you know, you're going to help, uh, help people, um, you know, uh, uh, in, in their daily lives rather than again, re-litigating the issue that got you there in the first place. Uh, at least right off the bat. But, um, but yeah, that's what I would suggest. All right. Makes sense. Uh, re reinforcing the message with, uh, other narratives that, uh, are strongly related that can put you back on the right track. Absolutely. Now, are there any, uh, metrics or, or any way we can really determine that we've been successful in navigating the crisis? Is there, what do we watch for? Yeah, I mean, I, I think there are a number of, of metrics we can watch for. So number one is, uh, brand equity. So, you know, you can measure that through, you know, rolling survey instruments essentially, uh, you know, with, with consumers overall. And again, really understanding where you have to measure opinions. So I think, you know, we can get wrapped up in, in trying to figure out what the, the populace at large thinks about a particular thing. Uh, the, the bigger question for me is like, who. You know, again, your core stakeholders, what do they think? So again, the overall, you know, your global sort of reputation might have taken a hit, but among your core stakeholders and your customers and your audience, you might still be okay. Right? So, so designing your instruments, uh, you know, survey instruments in a way that, that, um. That measures those pieces as well as like the, I mean, the global, you know, brand equity is important too, but, uh, but I would say, you know, just being intentional about who you, whose opinions you're measuring. So, so there are all sorts of ways to do that. Um, you know, through customer surveys and, and again, broader public opinion, uh, surveying. And then you can do that internally as well. So, uh, turn, turn those inward again. Use, um. Anecdotal evidence, uh, to, to your advantage as well. So again, having those touches as a leader in those places, you know, gathering the data as, so it's not just a, I'm talking at you situation, but it's a, I'm listening to you as well and having the, the, uh, infrastructure in place to capture that feedback, I think, I think is very helpful. Um. And again, a lot of that depends on the preparation work too. So if you have a workplace or an organization where there is not a sense of psychological safety where you can actually, uh, share that, uh, input as, as an employee, everything's always gonna be great. Right. You know, you're gonna go into the room and everything. Oh yeah, this is great. This is awesome. Um, and, and that's not very helpful. You want to have, uh, and cultivate an environment where people can say, you know. It is pretty good, but I think there are a couple of areas that, you know, you could improve here. And, and so I think, you know, again, it's, it's really thinking about culture, how you communicate culture, and then how you actually contribute to that lived experience of being able to express those opinions. So I think, you know, again, capturing that from, uh, you know, like sort of focus groups to use a political, uh, a term for, for that. But you can even focus group your, your internal team and just make sure that they feel okay. Um, okay. Uh. Sharing their actual honest opinion about stuff. And then, uh, and then of course market share. Um, and so you could take a look at, at market share. Um, and again, you know, I think it's tough because there's so much pressure to, to perform from, uh, especially for publicly traded companies. Like it's a quarter to quarter battle to beat uh, expectations across the board. And that can be very tough, uh, for privately held companies, though I think it's a little bit easier in that. You can give yourself a couple quarters to recover from something like this, as long as you're seeing it move in in the right direction. So you could look at those metrics. Sales, um, uh, again, uh, you know, so, so there are a number of, of ways to create this sort of composite of brand health and of, uh, of, you know, sort, sort of perception health among, among the stakeholders you're looking to influence. Nice. Okay. Well, so, so Matt, uh, as we think about all that we've spoken about today, uh, what are the, the core things that you want leaders to walk away from during, from this discussion? What are the key things that they should be thinking about when navigating a crisis? Absolutely. I, one of the key, and I think, I think this is sort of goes back to, um, what, what we've been talking about, uh, amongst ourselves and our internal team. About where we see the deficiencies, right? So I said, you know, we're oftentimes brought in to deal with a communications problem. And then we get into the room and we find that there's also a bit of a mindset issue as well. Um, or, you know, leaders are stuck on decisions, right? So like the way that we think about leadership is it's vision decision. Motivation. Right? Like it's, it's as simple as that, as far as I'm concerned. Mm-hmm. So what is your vision for your organization? What decisions do you have to make in order to bring that dis, that vision to to life? And then third, what do you have to do in order to motivate your teams to execute on that? And I think. People get stuck on, on each of those before. So again, we're brought in to, to say, okay, we have a crisis, we have an issue. Um, what do we say? Like what are the magic words to say in this situation that'll fix it. And, and in reality it's like we have to build a foundation first, which is what is your actual vision, right? Getting clear on those values and then where, what decisions are you stuck on? Right? Is it the fact that you think that you can make everyone happy, for instance? Well, we need to get past that from a mindset perspective, uh, because we're all human beings, right? We would love to make everyone happy. So I think getting past that is, is helpful. And then, and then what things do you have to motivate? So I would say the biggest thing for me is prepar, do the preparation work ahead of time. Always have, uh, always, uh, be looking and, and reflecting on, on your. Uh, leadership abilities, number one. Number two, the, the sort of culture of, of the workplace, you know, don't take anything for granted. So I would say preparation will alleviate like 80% of your, of your problems when it comes to a crisis. Mm-hmm. The other 20% is execution. When, when the time comes. But if you've done the mindset work, you've developed presence, you've developed a process as a leader personally, to get back to presence in, in that moment in your, in your body and your mind, right, to, to actually do the things that you need to do, then you'll be able to execute, most likely. So I would say prepare, do the drills. Really ask yourself like, what do we stand for? And then when, when the time comes, when you're faced with an issue. You should have that confidence to, to execute on those things. I mean, there's always gonna be a curve ball, right? Right. But, but you can, you can deal with that when, when the time comes, if you have the tools and the foundation underneath you. So I would say preparation is huge. Just know what you're gonna do. You may not know what the specifics are, but you do have a process in place to deal with these, these crises and, and know who you're gonna talk to know. And you may not know what you're gonna say, but you're gonna know how to move through it. So that's what I would say. Prepare, prepare, prepare. Great. And do that. Work on yourself as a leader. Yeah. So what if, uh, what, uh, so for our leaders out there that have identified that, hey, they have a brand that is worth protecting, that is, you know, something that they need to retain that strategic advantage and they want to reach out to a person like you, Matthew, that can, that can help them, uh, create a, a protection plan around this, uh, what's their best way to contact you? Yeah, absolutely. So I'll, I'll give you the easy one. Um, so M two Aspire, uh, dot com uh, is is our website where, um, we, we talk a lot about the leadership development piece and that preparation piece. Um, and, you know, you can reach us through there. And then on the communication side, obviously we can, we can help with that. Um, we're also, uh, we also have a, a substack that we've been putting out, um, m two aspire.substack.com, where we're talking about some. Um, more sort of unorthodox things that you don't necessarily, uh, lump in with the communications piece of things. But I think there are issues again that we've been, we've been talking through where leaders have these sort of mental blocks that prevent the ability to actually execute on, on some of the things that they need to execute on. So, uh, those are the two places where, where you can find us. Uh, we're always happy to have a conversation, uh, answer questions, um, and, and have a chat and, and get perspectives from folks. So, you know, we hope, uh. Hope you'll reach out if, if you found this interesting and, uh, are always happy again to have a conversation with folks. Yeah. So thank you, Matt, and I mean, this is a, an important thing to kind of, for leaders to consider because you, you wanna make sure that we're, we're ahead of a crisis and really steering the, the organization in a way for, uh, to, for success in the future. So thank you for sharing your, your wisdom around this process. Thank you, Sam. Thanks for having me. Right. And, and to all our leaders out there, if this helped you, please share this message with, with some of your, your friends that, that need to, to hear about crisis management and, and subscribe and rate and, and make sure that, uh, your, your, uh, uh, leaving stuff in the comments about your experiences and so forth. All right, so I'm Sam Reve once again, and thank you for joining the People Strategy Forum, and we'll see you next week. Right? Take care everyone.