(EN) Connection That Respects Differences with Amanda Lukof

What does real inclusion look like in everyday life? In this episode of BrightBond, Patrick Duriaux speaks with Amanda Lukof, Co-Founder and CEO of Eleplan, about autism, caregiving, and how we can create safer, more respectful human connection for everyone.

Inspired by her lived experience as a sibling caregiver and her work supporting families navigating disability, chronic illness, and aging, Amanda shares thoughtful and practical insights on communication, inclusion, and the small actions that can make a big difference. Together, they explore common misunderstandings about autism and social interaction, the importance of clarity and respect, and the unique strengths that older generations can bring to inclusive spaces.

This is a warm and eye-opening conversation about meeting people where they are, reducing pressure to “fit in,” and building connection in ways that feel easier, safer, and more human.

A powerful episode for anyone who cares about inclusion, family, caregiving, and meaningful connection across differences.

Contact: BrightBond@alto.cool

https://www.youtube.com/@BrightBondOfficial

Amanda Lukof:

www.eleplan.com

amanda@eleplan.com

IG: elepan_care

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 1:12

Hello everyone and a warm welcome to Brightband, the podcast about real human connections across generations, cultures, and everyday life, anywhere and everywhere. I'm Patrick Duriau, and here we share real conversations that leave you with practical ideas to create more connection at home, at work, or in your community. Today's podcast is a very interesting topic. The title is Connection that Respects Differences. In this episode, we explore inclusion in a simple, practical, and respectful way, with a focus on autism, everyday communication, and how we can make connection feel safer and easier for everyone. And to speak about this very important topic, I'm very, very happy to welcome Amanda Lukov from LAN. Amanda is the co-founder and CEO of LAN, an AI-powered care planning platform built to support families navigating disability, chronic illness, and aging. Inspired by her life's experience as a sibling caregiver and a background as an attorney and advocate, Amanda spent her career at the intersection of social impact and family caregiving. At LEPLAN, Amanda and her team are focused on reducing caregiving burden by turning fragmented information into a dynamic, shareable system that supports continuity of care, self-advocacy, and long-term planning. Amanda, it's a great pleasure to have you here on our podcast, and welcome to Brightband.

SPEAKER_01 3:11

Thank you for having me, Patrick.

SPEAKER_02 3:14

Wonderful. We're gonna speak, of course, about uh LAN. We're gonna speak about your experience. I'm so thrilled to have you in the podcast. You have so much uh great experience to share with us today. Uh, we'll start with warm-up questions to warm up your voice, if you may uh allow me to do so. And I would like to ask you, how old are you? And where are you based? Uh, which city and which country for our listeners.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

So I am 39 years old, almost 40 in May. So big milestone birthday coming up. And I live in uh Monmouth County, New Jersey in the US.

SPEAKER_02 3:49

Okay, wonderful. That's great. So that's uh not too far from New York. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Uh yeah, pretty close. We actually live kind of on the northernmost part of the Jersey shore. Um, and there's a ferry that goes right to Manhattan from right where we live. So we're very close to the city, about less than an hour away.

SPEAKER_02 4:06

Wow, amazing. That's fantastic. Very nice. Very lucky. That's very great. I also always like to start the podcast with a positive energy and uh close it with positive energy too. Uh, and my first questions about positive energy will be what actually gives you energy at the moment, Amanda?

SPEAKER_01 4:25

Um, my work and my kids. I think um my work is a bit like a third baby to me. So I kind of count that as one of my children. I have two boys who are seven and eight years old, high energy, um, high demand, and lots of fun. And so they give me energy. They also tire me out, but I think they're more additive in energy than taking away at this age. So they keep me on my toes and um, you know, kind of help me wake up every day with a smile on my face. And work is similar for me because I'm just so passionate about what I do and feel so lucky to do what I do.

SPEAKER_02 4:57

So it's amazing. That's great. And if if you do uh would just for us just summarize a bit what teleplan is about, that would be very useful, I think, for the rest of the conversation to understand what is your interaction with people.

SPEAKER_01 5:12

Yeah, yeah. I'll give a quick little background and kind of the why behind it too, because I think it informs how we use the product. But um, I am, like I said, 39 years old. I have a younger brother with autism who is 20 uh 28. I'm 11 years older than he is. And so my sibling experience has been a unique one. And as the much older sister, he is, you know, I will be Liam's future caregiver when our parents are gone in the hopefully for our future. And so, front of mind for me has always been how am I going to be able to take care of him the way that they do and know all of the information that they have sitting in their brains and binders and notebooks. Um, so when my partner and I, who's an engineer at Bill Della Plan a few years ago, we had the kind of future caregiving transition in mind. But when we stepped back from the product, we realized we'd actually solved for every care transfer, present and future. And when you think about caregiving and transitions, there's so many in a single day. And explaining my brother to a new job coach or a new teacher or a new therapist and seeing how much the fragmentation of information really burdened my parents. And so Ellaplan was born out of this real desire to um kind of collect all of that fragmented information into a living, breathing brain. And so the user experience today is you literally just dump all of your information into the platform, whether it's uploading PDFs, adding a voice note, texting into Ellaplan um via SMS, uh, adding school records, integrating health records, literally any way you can get information in, we accept it. And then we digest all of that information, um, extract all the individual data points sitting in all these places and build the brain. And so now you have everything, not only have everything in one place, but you can actually search it and it's all contextualized against each other. So it's kind of this really dynamic source of information and kind of that core source of truth about the person you're caring for.

SPEAKER_02 7:08

Let me tell you that I think that it's a brilliant idea. I think just the fact that uh, as you said, everything is in one place, that's sometimes just that's the challenge, right? You have uh a lot of people to look after or to care uh about, and sometimes you might have a lot of different documentation, and it's not always easy to get grasp of the documentation you need at that right moment. And I think it's a great platform and makes uh I'm sure life easier for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 7:37

That's the hope. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 7:39

Great, fantastic. I also uh you just touched uh on that uh topic, of course, that uh you have your own uh life experience, uh being yourself a caregiver. I wanted to ask you uh as well, uh, if you would uh wrote I was a manual for connection with someone we need scare. What would you write on page number one with your experience?

SPEAKER_01 8:07

Be curious. I think I think openness and connection come from curiosity first. And I think when it comes to caregiving, we think a lot about medical diagnoses and health care, and we forget about the human behind all of that. And so Ellaplan in particular was really born out of not just that fragmentation of information, but also wanting the people who care for Liam to know him the way we know him, right? Outside of autism and anxiety and OCD, but also the fact that he um loves Saturday Night Live and Weird Al and um The Muppets and Stephen King and um hates hiccups and tattoos, right? There are things that make the kind of the nuances of humans. I think that's what brings the connection. And when we're caregiving, those human nuances of our personalities are what allow a caregiver to connect with the person they're caring for and make the care recipient really feel seen and understood and not just like a patient. So I think curiosity um prevails for me.

SPEAKER_02 9:52

Okay, that's very, very interesting uh as well. I guess to some extent, um, we speak sometimes, and I'm as you know, I worked also in human resources, and uh I it's sometimes simply people might not connect because they don't think the same way, or they feel the person is uh, you know, we're all different anyway, but so that's they don't connect and they sometimes don't understand why they don't connect. And I always wonder if sometimes, as you say, curiosity could be the the bond, could be the gap, the gap for closing, closing the gap of when we don't understand uh someone else, for instance. And um I also wanted to ask you if there is there's maybe a common misunderstanding uh from neurotypical people uh that may have about autism and social interaction. What would that be, do you think?

SPEAKER_01 10:44

It's a good question. I think um I think the most common misconception probably is that the person, the neurodiverse person, wherever they might be on the spectrum, right? With autism in particular, we have um you can be, you know, non-speaking, you can be fully verbal, but still have autism. And so there's this very wide spectrum, right? And I think there's a misconception of you know cognitive understanding, right? These are human beings who understand way more than we ever give them credit for, even if they can't verbalize it, right? So there's someone inside there, right? Um, you can translate that to dementia or other kind of forms of cognitive delay, right? There are still people inside of these bodies that are sometimes unable to express themselves, but it doesn't mean that cognitively they're not understanding everything around them. Um, and so I think sort of there, there's an in our world of neurodiversity, we talk a lot about presuming competence rather than incompetence. And so you always want to, you know, lead with an assumption of confidence, of competence and confidence in that human that you're interacting with. Um, I think that's really important. And then the other thing, I don't mean to digress for a second, but on the curiosity piece, which I think is all connected to this, um, have you watched the show Ted Lasso? Yes, I didn't know.

SPEAKER_02 12:08

So it's great.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

Do you remember? Do you remember the scene? And I feel like if your listeners haven't watched Ted Lasso, if you just Google um Ted Lasso dart scene, do you remember the scene where he's in the pub with the with the mean the owner who's like the ex-husband of the right? And he said, You know how my dad always taught me to be curious. And if you'd been curious and that whole scene, that to me is like the essence of all of this, right? If if you're curious, you know way more about the person you're dealing with and you understand the differences and you get to learn from them for better or worse, but often for better, right? So I think the presuming competence also comes into that notion of curiosity.

SPEAKER_02 12:48

That's that's great. And I like your example of Ted Laslo. It's such a great show as well.

SPEAKER_01 12:55

I just think it's such a fantastic, like micro lesson in that show.

SPEAKER_02 13:00

I agree with you. And uh sometimes people think, oh, it's uh it's about sports, and maybe they don't like sport, but it's give it give you so much layers of learning and different levels on humanity. I think it's fantastic. So it's a great, great example. And you spoke about actually curiosity, which is a very uh interesting and important topic. Uh, and it goes well, I think, with learning, right? From other people. And uh my experience also is sometimes people uh have preconceived ideas, or maybe they're judging people because maybe they don't have simply the data about the other person, whatever the other person uh displays or behave like so. I I don't know from your standpoint what you think. Uh and I think that's why you spoke about curiosity, about learning about the other, right? Is there any other layers of curiosity or learning you think which are important as well?

SPEAKER_01 13:52

Yeah, I think it's you know, not just curiosity for the sake of curiosity, but really kind of digging into the layers of a human, right? There's like we are dynamic creatures and there's so many different layers. And so, you know, I think this idea too of presuming competence, not to kind of repeat myself, but I think it's there's layers to that, right? Right. What what is competent for somebody that, you know, he could be competent in this area, but needs help in this area. And if we're not, if we just stop at area A and don't kind of peel the onion back to get to the next area or layer, we're not going to understand the kind of dynamic nature of the human and um really learning what makes somebody tick in positive and negative ways, right? And sort of unpacking how to understand that person and their triggers and then meet them where they are and supporting that. And so I think it's it's learning, it's curiosity, it's asking those kinds of questions. And I talk a lot about living in the gray. So um I'm a lawyer by training, which I think a lot of people assume makes you black and white, right? There's a, you know, there's a yes, there's a right and a wrong, right? I I think that the law is actually much more about the gray, right? We, we, we litigate over the gray. That's where lawyers make their money, is is is fighting in that gray zone. Um, where we can, if we if we live in the gray where curiosity lives, right, we're not passing judgment, we're not making sort of pointed conclusions without full information. So I just think that that area of learning in the middle is the best place to be.

SPEAKER_02 15:37

Okay, that's very interesting as well, what you just say about uh the gray. It makes me think about uh another one, which is the perception, uh, which is again gray can be perceived in different layers of gray, and as you say, black and white colors. Whatever the perception is something I wanted to ask you about. Uh what do you think uh maybe people uh perception? Because we all have different perceptions. As you say, if you're a lawyer, you might say maybe it's gray, and maybe in some point you have a nice article, it's very neat, you know, that's right or that's wrong. And maybe other people might perceive that differently. So when it comes from again, autism uh on perception, can you tell us a bit your experience of how people perceive autism?

SPEAKER_01 16:24

I think it's changing for the better, but growing up, it was hard to see people's perception of my brother of our family, because there was sort of these preconceived notions of what a good parent was or what a well-behaved child was. And now there's a bit more awareness, I guess I would say a lot more awareness around autism specifically. So if you meet my brother now, it's fairly clear that he has autism or is otherwise neurodiverse. He's he's verbal, he can speak, but um, you know, he perseverates and he has some ticks and things that that are are not quote unquote normal, right? Which is I hate that word normal, but that's, I guess, you know, preconceived notions and things like that, right? That's what people use those words. So growing up though, autism, so he was diagnosed in 1999 when he was two. And autism back then was really brand new to my parents' brains, right? We thought he would never speak. We had no idea that there was this vast spectrum. I don't think really, even scientists knew that, right? And so as he grew up, you know, by the time he was 10 or 11, he was still acting much younger than his age. And we would be out in public and people would just assume that my parents didn't have a handle on him or weren't good parents because they weren't disciplining him when really it's just completely out of our control how he could respond at any given moment. I'll give you one quick example. He we, I was took my sister and my brother, I was in college, they were probably like seven and nine, I want to say. And I took them to build a bear, which is kind of this place where you can like design your own bear and stuff it. And at the end of the build-a-bear experience, you have a choice between a heart or a birth certificate. Or there's there's there's some choice, right? You can pick one of two things. You cannot have both. Once you pick one and you put it in, it's done. Liam picked option A, they sewed the bear up and he decided that he wanted option B. And they couldn't undo it. There was no way to reverse it. Even if they were nice about it, they couldn't reverse it. He threw a complete tantrum in the store, ran around the store tearing things off the shelves. And I was, you know, 19 years old holding two build-aboar, two build-a-bear boxes with my younger sister, you know, just I don't know what to do. And people are staring and, you know, just kind of wondering what the heck is going on. And I think they're in that moment, I felt a lot of judgment. And I think as a society, we need to do better at, you know, for me, I always assume something's going on. And I don't know if that's right either. Um, I don't assume that like you're quote unquote normal and you're acting unreasonably. I assume that maybe you have a sensory issue or a regulation issue or something. So I I think there's dangers on both sides of that because they both involve assumptions, right? But I think you'd rather I don't know, because then I'm not presuming competence, but yeah, I I think it's we need to do better as a society of leaning more with openness than judgment. And I think that's sort of the conception of a lot of people is if you haven't lived it, you judge it. And I think growing up with Liam, I don't, I truly don't judge people. Uh it's like you, you know, you I'll meet you exactly where you are, and however you are, wherever you are is great to me.

SPEAKER_02 19:54

No, that's also a great that you just say. Of course, uh 20 years ago it's a different place than 10 years ago, and it's a different place that where we are today. So, of course, yeah, science has evolved, learning has evolved, literature has evolved also to speak a different topic, including this one. So I totally agree with you. I think it's very important to inform ourselves and uh yeah, just uh again uh try to refrain ourselves to judge others. What I also really like is that you share a story with us, and uh really uh thank you for that. It's also a feedback we received from uh our listeners uh that they like stories. Uh and to uh to link with what you just said, uh uh if you could share maybe a story with us uh where actually instead of judgment, maybe inclusion happened because someone did a small thing in the right way. How was that if you leave that kind of story?

SPEAKER_01 20:53

Yeah, I love that question and the opportunity to share a story on the other side. And and again, it goes to this kind of uh difference in 20 years because that Build-A-Bear experience was just about 20 years ago. And flash forward to recently, I took Liam to Los Angeles on a sister-brother trip. Um, it was many years in the making, and he wanted to go to Disneyland and a few other things in California. So we made a trip of it, just the two of us. And it was my first time traveling alone with him, actually. And we had a great trip, but on the way back, um, we were flying home on a Saturday. And for Liam, Saturday Night Live is the most important night of his of his week. And he has to be in front of the TV with NBC on hours before SNL actually comes on. So we he was nervous in the beginning of flying home on Saturday as it was because of this dynamic, but we had plenty of time between getting home and SNL starting. Our flight was delayed by about an hour, but even that one hour was really building his anxiety. And at the airport, you know, when people kind of converge in the in the boarding lanes well before it's even time to board, and everyone's in sardines thinking that they're gonna miss the plane or it's gonna leave without them, and it's just this like weird human phenomenon of like it never changes, but we still all do it. Um, so we were in this kind of sardine area by the gate and it was delayed. And Liam was kind of, you know, bopping around and trying to move and really getting his anxiety was increasing. And a gate attendant noticed this and he pulled me aside and he said, Do you think he would be more comfortable with some more space? And in between and the and the plane, there was kind of like a foyer area where there was nobody else standing because it was roped off. And I said, I think that would help him a ton. And and he didn't make a big announcement of it. He didn't draw attention to Liam. He just opened the rope and let us go through. And for the next 30 minutes, Liam kind of had this free space to like, I call him kind of like a like a free-range chicken. He was just kind of like bopping around and he was so happy because he had the space and there weren't people kind of in his sensory space from a personal space perspective. And I honestly think that in those 30 minutes, if he hadn't had that offer of space by this really kind-hearted, open, inclusive human, his anxiety would have ramped up so much that I'm not sure he would have been able to board the plane. So it was just such a small, seemingly small thing that was really big in that moment. And we made it home in time for SNL and everything was okay.

SPEAKER_02 23:29

So that's beautiful. That's a beautiful example. And it's great that uh this person was able to read the situation as well. And uh, as you say, open the rope, open his heart, open his mind, and put the space uh for you and your brother. That's amazing, inspirational story, actually. We think it's uh it's nothing, it's simple, but sometimes those things. Change the experience of uh people. That's quite unbelievable and great. So fantastic, amazing. And uh, how was the show? Uh did Liam enjoy the show?

SPEAKER_01 24:01

He did. It was my husband had it waiting. He was at our house that night and he had it waiting on on NBC. So that as soon as Liam came home, three hours ahead of time still, that it was waiting for him. And he always has a pint of Ben and Jerry's with him. So we had pre-ordered the Ben and Jerry's spoon ready, and he had a he had a great night watching us and all.

SPEAKER_02 24:19

Wonderful. That's great. Fantastic. So nice. That's great. I also uh as you know, I shared with you uh I've got a passion for cross-generational or intergenerational connection or interaction between human beings. And I was uh wondering because we spoke uh about LAN, and I know that uh you also have maybe seniors or elderly people uh as clients. I wanted to uh ask you from your experience, uh how do you uh see maybe uh the behavior of seniors or maybe the strengths of seniors uh when it comes to inclusion or including people or having an inclusive space? So you just spoke about including Liam in a new space. So that's goes really well with that. So, what is your experience of the behavior of seniors to bring uh people to an inclusing, inclusing, uh inclusive space?

SPEAKER_01 25:13

Yeah, I think it stems from just their core compassion, right? I feel like at least, and maybe I've just been lucky, but a lot of the um older people that I've gotten to be close with in my life, whether it's grandparents or friends, they have this lens from their experience in life that just makes them more compassionate people because they've kind of seen it all, right? And they know that like you might think you're having a bad day today, but I live through the right depression or I live through this war. They just have so much life lived that I think it makes them better apt at prioritizing the right things. Um, which, and to me, inclusion is one of the most important things to prioritize, right? It's so obvious. And I think that um, you know, seniors have this capacity for openness. And again, like not to be a broken record, but curiosity, right? It's like they they get to just maybe it's they have more time or the things they've seen or whatever, but just I think there's a baseline compassion of there is room for all of us here, you know, like they've seen when you think about seniors now, what they have seen in their lifetime, right? The segregation they've seen, the wars they've seen fought, the the issues that seemed so insurmountable that suddenly became not an issue, right? It probably opens your mind. And I think I hope we have less of those bigger issues in future generations, but I think the gift they gave us and the seniors that teach us is this kind of this lens of it's not so bad. Let's all just get along and include everyone.

SPEAKER_02 26:59

Yeah, that's that's a great uh again, great sharing experience as well with the own life experience, as you said, the challenges they had to live and go through. Uh, that's quite interesting. Would you say that a bit more to phrase that, to some extent detached or have more of a helicopter view of things in general? What's what is your view on that?

SPEAKER_01 27:21

Yeah, I think you know, I I don't know if I would use the word detached, but maybe the helicopter view, the kind of higher yeah, I think they're easy. It's like the the like the big picture, right? They can kind of see the forest through the trees. And sometimes when we're in these moments of, you know, I see it in my own town with my young kids. You can kind of get in this realm of you're just navigating the day-to-day of your own life. So the problems of somebody next door to you don't seem relevant, but it's all relevant, right? That's your neighbor, that's your friend, and that's somebody that you should care about. And so even if inclusion doesn't seem relevant to you because you don't have a kid with autism, well, it's actually quite relevant because when we build for inclusion, we build for all people, right? And I think seniors have this kind of like that seems so obvious to them because they're coming from this higher level picture that we lose sight of in in daily life when we're younger.

SPEAKER_02 28:18

Yeah, I agree, I agree with you. Definitely the life experience is such a uh gift, as you said, to give to others. They leave so many things and they can share so many things. It's uh yeah, it's a beauty to see. So thanks for that. That's fantastic. We we spoke uh a lot of um about real things, really, uh your life and things and then you experience. I'd like to pick your brain now a bit more on uh imagination. Uh if you had a uh magic wand, um, and we spoke about things and preconceived ideas, but if there is we would be one myth you would love to delete from society, really one myth which you know people might leave or say, or yeah, one myth you would love to delete from society with your magic wand, what would that be?

SPEAKER_01 29:06

That disability is a niche issue, right? That it's a that it's that it's not an issue that affects enough people that we should all care about, right? Disability is everywhere, one in four people is affected by it. Um, this is not a microcosm that will not touch your life. It is ever-present everywhere. There's invisible disabilities, there's visible disabilities, and I think there's this notion that it's a special group of people. And when we hear special or special needs, we think small, but it's actually a very big population of people around the world. And we need to realize that this is something that affects a lot more people than we might realize.

SPEAKER_02 29:47

Yeah, I love that example. It's uh it's very true. Um, I went to uh I went to see um a comedian, female comedian in Paris. And she was absolutely brilliant. So I probably never laughed as much in my life than in that show. And she was on a spectrum, and it was really beautiful because she was explaining that at the end of the show, she was speaking more about her personal life. I would you say invisible, I would have never guessed she was on the spectrum. So talented, so gifted, hilarious, uh, really. But yeah, she was on the spectrum. And as you said, uh, there's more people than we think who uh have differences, of course. Yeah, beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 30:29

Please send me her name after. I'd love to see some of her stuff.

SPEAKER_02 30:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's very uh she has a specific humor, so it's uh can be felt as very dark kind of humor.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

But uh I like all humor. I'm very laughing after that.

SPEAKER_02 30:42

Okay, that's great. I will definitely let you know. Great. And last question uh for today, and I also like to ask that question uh to leave something with our listeners. Uh it's uh a little bit of a tip on advice. That's what we call the bright bone tip. So, Amanda, if you uh would give a tip for inclusion and connection to our listeners, what would you tell them they can do? And a simple action they can take next week, for instance.

SPEAKER_01 31:13

Ask a question that you might not normally feel comfortable asking someone, right? Be open, be curious, ask questions, and that's how you're going to learn and peel those layers back.

SPEAKER_02 31:24

Okay. That's really applicable. I like that. It's very simple, and we can all do that, absolutely. And it's a good point. And sometimes it's maybe true that we maybe fear to ask a question, maybe go because we don't know things, and uh, but that's a very good uh step. So uh it's important that people uh take the little courage, make a step forward and ask questions when they when they don't know things, and uh as you say, comes back to be curious, right? Yes, okay, fantastic. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 31:56

Sponsored by Ted Lassea.

SPEAKER_02 31:58

Exactly. I like that. That's very nice. So, Amanda, I would like to thank you so much uh for your thoughtful uh conversation, your insight, also sharing uh your personal life. You opened uh your heart to us and uh your life to us. So thank you so much for that. Uh it's a gift, I will say. So thank you for that gift to uh to us. Um, if I had to uh summarize a bit the uh, as you said, the uh podcast, it was about being curious, of course. I think um inclusion uh doesn't mean that we need to say the perfect thing. It's to maybe ask the right question, as you say, rather than say the perfect things. Uh creating safety, you mentioned this great example. It's really it touched me actually, this example at the airport with your brother, creating the space for people and treating people with respect. I think that's what uh this gentleman did with you and your brother. That was fantastic. Uh, small action matters as well. You just give us a tip, uh, that's very important. Asking questions can very much make a change, make a difference with people, and then making sure that we connect uh with people, uh, also with people who sometimes, as you say, sometimes things are invisible, so people may behave differently. And then then yeah, ask, let's ask a question, let's see uh why there's uh a feeling of maybe difference, and we're all different anyway. So let's be curious about each other. That's a very good uh summary. Uh, you mentioned this word curiosity, and I think it's a great curiosity to have. Also, I think sometimes we uh want people to change. I heard that many times uh doing coaching, uh people either in a romantic relationship at work or private life, uh, I'm trying to make that person change. And uh I'm always questioning that. I'm always thinking uh, is connection, does it demand us to ask people to change, or is it from us to maybe make a step towards the other where they are and not link with uh what you just said to ask questions and to understand the other? So I really liked uh this episode. Uh, I hope the listeners uh will also enjoy it very much. I would say, as a little challenge to uh listeners, try this small step, this small action that Amanda just recommended, this tip. Uh try to uh make it happen next week. It's an easy step and it can make a difference, as we just said. Amanda, thank you again so so much for your time and for sharing everything with us today.

SPEAKER_01 34:27

Thank you for having me, Patrick. Thank you, everyone.

SPEAKER_02 34:29

You're very welcome.

SPEAKER_01 34:31

Have a good day.

SPEAKER_02 34:32

Thank you, you too, and thank you for the listeners. Uh thank you for listening to Brightbond. If you like this episode, please do not hesitate to share it with someone else who might need it. And uh take good care of yourself. That was also part of what we are saying today. And see you next time on Brightbone. Thank you very much, and bye for now. Bye Amanda, and thank you.

SPEAKER_01 34:53

Great, thank you.