How to Design Your Backyard Around a Pool — Before You Break Ground | Trey Watford, River Pools Virginia

Most homeowners plan the pool and figure out the outdoor living space later. That's the mistake. In this episode, landscape architect Trey Watford, lead designer at River Pools Virginia, walks you through the design process from discovery to final plan, so you can approach your own project with confidence no matter who you work with.

Trey covers the questions every homeowner should ask themselves before a designer ever shows up, why site analysis is the most underrated part of the process, what a $250K–$300K backyard project actually includes, and how to bring that number down without losing what matters most.

Whether you're early in your research or already speaking with builders, this episode will give you a clearer picture of what great backyard design looks like, and what questions to ask to make sure you get it.

Topics covered:

• Where the design process actually begins (it's not where you think)
• The "dot connecting" method for deeply understanding your backyard vision
• Site analysis, elevation readings, and why skipping this step is costly
• Professional designer vs. order taker - what's the real difference?
• Live design walkthrough of a real River Pools project
• Budget reality: what drives costs up, and how to bring them down
• Where to start if you want to begin planning tomorrow

Resources mentioned: riverpoolsandspas.com — pool type selector, shape and size tool, and pool cost calculator

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I'm trying to pull as many dots as I can. And so if I have 300 dots, that's going to be a much more detailed photo, you know, when it's all said and done than not getting those things. And again, a dot could be things you hate, things that you love. And then some dots are things that you can't control.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

Hello friends, welcome to the Pool Guides Podcast. I'm Christian with River Pool, a show that helps you gather all the information so that you can make the best decisions needed long before you break ground on a swimming pool in your backyard. Here's something I see all the time. A homeowner falls in love with a pool. They select the pool type, the color, the shape, the size, the features, all of the things that they want to see in their backyard. And then somebody asks about the outdoor living space around it, and they kind of go blank because the pool was the plan. The truth is, a pool is just one piece of a much bigger picture. The outdoor living space around it, the patio, the materials, the design, the layout, how it all flows together. That's what turns a backyard into something you really truly want to spend a lot of time in. And if you don't think through the design process before construction begins, you could end up making some very expensive decisions under a lot of pressure. Today's guide has designed some of the most stunning outdoor living spaces I've come across in the industry. He's a landscape architect by trade, and he's spent the last decade designing beautiful spaces all focused on an in-ground swimming pool. His work today is exclusively through River Pools Virginia, an independent pool installation company based out of Warsaw, Virginia. He's here today to walk you through the design process. And whether you end up working with him or somebody else entirely, you're at least going to have a list of questions to ask, things to look out for, and most importantly, you're going to know how to build a backyard that's designed around your life. Meet today's guide, Trey Watford. I've said this many times. Tell us a little bit about your background, how you got into this, and how you got connected with uh you know the company you're working for today. Tell us a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

Yeah, yeah. Well, I knew from a young age that um I wanted to be um in the you know to design things. I've always liked drawing and art and you know things like that. Um went to Virginia Tech and uh studied landscape architecture and then also horticulture. Um, and then from there worked uh as a land with a landscape company uh that I had an internship with and then worked with a um a design build company uh in my local area in Williamsburg and really kind of cut my teeth there and to understand um you know uh the process and what works for me. And again, what works for me may not work for other people as they, you know, their the way their the design mind works, but kind of figured out what works for me and and um was doing a lot of high-end design build projects um you know in in the Williamsburg and Hampton Roads areas. And uh one common denominator that I always kind of uh dealt with is you know doing all of the, you know, doing all the scope of work but the pool. And so every time working with a pool company, it just it derailed the whole project because you know, either they weren't showing up or it was taking twice as long as they said. And uh, and then I designed, you know, a couple projects with fiberglass and uh didn't really know much about it. And um I was like, hey, we you know these seems like a you know a great company and let me I'll you know design with one of their shells and and I did and posted it online and and then Christian, you know, you you responded and I was like, man, this is cool. Yeah I was like, hey, let me go network with these companies um because I'm trying to find the right one to work with and uh keep getting let down. So um came here and and uh you had actually left uh for Memorial Day, and and uh I was like, all right, well there's a little lab dog in the in the in here in the lobby, so petting the dog, and and then um Jason Hughes came out and and uh gave me the tour, and I was like, man, this this guy's you know, um I just you know he was kind of talking about the the dream of uh you know this acorn flowering into a big tree, and like man, this guy's you know seems uh honest and and uh worked with him. Um the project went off great, did a few like that, and then uh you know, here I came to to work here. So yeah, that's kind of how I landed here. Um yeah, and you came in about the same time I did.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

Of course, uh a little more context at the time it was in 2017. Yeah. Yeah, 17. Um, so the River Pool's uh brand of fiberglass pools was being born at that time out of the original River Pools um pool building company. Yep. And so manufacturing was beginning in the same building that Riverpool's um Riverpools and Spa's um uh was operating out of. And they were literally manufacturing pool shells in the back. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:11

Uh and yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

The brand was beginning to take hold. Um, we were introducing lots of new shells at the time, new models, and we were really just coming to the market. Fast forward to uh 2020 and COVID years when things went bananas. Oh, yeah. Manufacturing, uh manufacturing got um sold uh to Thursday Pools. And that if you haven't had a chance to see that manufacturing facility, it's amazing. But so that's where River Pool shells were made today. But the original River Pools installation company is now known as Riverpools Virginia. Um it's a franchised um uh installation business now, just basically have the rights to use the River Pool's name, but the same ownership, same leadership. Um, and that's that's the company we work for today.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

Yeah, that's what I really believed in was that leadership.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

So yeah, uh absolutely same reasons I joined. Okay, so what is what's your role with the company?

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Yep, so I'm the design boy um as well. Um so I uh what I do is I connect the dots. Uh I get uh you know a lot of uh, you know, I used to do all the site work and everything. Now we've got a great team of people. Uh so we've got a guy who goes out and gets measurements, um, uh, gets all the elevations and pictures and drone shots and all that stuff. Um I then internalize that uh off-site and then uh prepare plans. We have a great questionnaire. So yeah, so I I uh say I'm the the design boy, but uh basically just connect those dots and then present those plans to the customer and uh and and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

So you've got a technical um a technical installation uh guy on your team goes out, he collects the the critical data you need for the design. So it's not really necessary for you to step into the backyard, right? Um uh just just the way your team has has got things set up here in Riverpools, Virginia.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

Yeah, and that's that's something we've been doing now for uh for a couple months um now. So it's kind of a new concept before I did all of that. So all the the sales, the design, the estimate, like that whole thing. Yeah. And so what we're trying to do is really focus on um someone who is very good at design, who's someone who is very uh a great communicator uh for the customer, and then also someone who has the technical skills to go out and get the information that I need in order to prepare a plan.

SPEAKER_00 7:30

Um you guys have broken broken the whole experience up and you've got you know the best working each each part of the the um sales design installation. I got it.

SPEAKER_01 7:40

Yeah, and we're developing a really cool questionnaire um so that I can really deeply understand a customer without having to spend a tremendous amount of time with uh with them um and still and still get to the end result that everyone wants um and the one that customers is uh envisioning or or dreaming about. Right. So it's it's really cool. And so we're kind of honing that a little bit, and and again, that's where you ask about the questions. I mean, there's there's so many questions, um, and and some can be twice as many as the others. Some people know kind of exactly what they want, they just can't quite figure out how to put it together, and some people have no clue. And so you you deal with so many different uh people, and uh and so kind of just meeting them where they are is really critical.

SPEAKER_00 8:25

Um and then that's the kind of experience you want to have on your side as you begin planning your outdoor living space centered around an in-ground swimming pool, whether it's Trey or someone else in your corner of the country. So, where does a great outdoor design begin? Actually, not with the pool shape, not with the pool color or materials. It actually begins with one question you should be asking yourself right now. So here's the topic of today. We want to talk about the design process. A lot of folks um look in their backyard and they're like, Want a pool? That's the first thought. But you gotta design the space. And there are few in the industry that I've come across that can design backyards um like you. I think you're I think you're one of few. I'm blushing. Yeah, well, I appreciate that. Uh I I think your um uh your your talents are unparalleled, right? And so I thought having you on the show to help explain the design process from your perspective, what are the steps you go through? How do you guide homeowners through that? What do you look for uh in hopes that uh somebody who's maybe not working with a big designer can still pull nuggets of information away and be like, oh, I should I should think about this, I should think about that, when it comes to designing my outdoor living space around a pool. Where where do you start when it comes to designing uh a pool project?

SPEAKER_01 9:59

Yeah, great question. Um, you know, I would say really with with design, it's a lot like many other things. Um when it when it comes down to you know gathering information, I really think that's the most key. Um because, for example, like you go to the doctor's office and oh my, you know, my knee is hurting or my leg's hurting. It's like, well, did you fall off the roof? Did you, you know, is it arthrite? Like, what is it? You know, and so the doctor's gonna ask questions, they're gonna, they're gonna try to understand. Um, and so really it's uh coming from a place of, you know, why do you want to pull in the first place? And then really just understand their circumstances because um, you know, every single customer is different, every every backyard is different. Um, and so the way I'm approaching a design for, say, an older retired couple, um, you know, wanting, you know, peace and tranquility is much different than you know, you or I probably in our homes with you know, kids at home. And um, you know, it's just a totally different dynamic. So really it's you know, really having to understand that customer and understand like why the pool in the first place, and then you know, deep discovery of um, you know, what it is about that space that's gonna make them, you know, fulfilled. So really at the end of the day, that's what it is, is you know, that customer's some there's a void somewhere. Um, and you know, we need to fill that, and that pool is is the place to to do that. And so it's um, you know, and so it's really it's really understanding that customer deeply and uh lit a lot of listening, a lot of uh, a lot of questions. And so um, you know, always kind of brace that customer, you know, hey, there's gonna be a lot of questions. It's not you know not meant to be annoying, but it's really just to to dig deep, you know, and and really understand, you know, you as a person, and and um, you know, and that's really step one uh for me.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

Well, so let's let's um the why behind your pool, the feeling you want to have when you walk out your back door, that's your starting point. And a great designer is gonna help you get there. But knowing what you want is only half of it. Here's the part of the design process most homeowners never see coming, and it's where the magic actually happens. Let me let me ask you this. When you get to when you get to the home, when you get to the backyard, um, what are some questions that would help the homeowner in the process? Uh, like if if they were to have a series of questions from you beforehand, right? Things for you to consider. I'd like for you to think about this. I want you to write this down, I want you to consider this. Like, what are those top three to five questions that every homeowner should ask themselves before going into designing their backyard, either with somebody of your caliber or somebody who offers um, you know, design build with a small company, or they're hiring a landscape architect separately from the pool builder. But whatever that is, whoever they're working with, what are like three to five questions they should ask themselves? Maybe it's more than five, but yeah, what's your advice there?

SPEAKER_01 13:01

Well, there's a couple things. One is that um that uh you know, that thing that a lot of people don't like to talk about, which is budget. You know, that's that's gonna be a determining factor. Um, but sometimes not as much. Sometimes it's weighing, you know, those uh, you know, budget versus usability. So a lot of questions I'm asking is um, you know, things like you know, how many people, you know, just knowing them, you know, as a family, how many people are gonna be enjoying this pool? Um, one thing that uh we we did a lot of is kind of painting that picture, like what is the perfect day back here look like? Can you can you see it in your mind? Um, and it doesn't have to be obviously the design, that's that's my job, but how do you know the feeling that you want to have back here? What um you know, how many people do you want to have out here? Um, all the different amenities outside of just the pool. Is it is it just the pool? Is it um you know, is the pool one uh specific thing uh as part of a whole backyard space? Um so you know, talking, talking budget, talking um, you know, functionality of the pool, again, why the pool in the first place? You know, you you get all kinds of answers, you know, from uh therapy to uh place for the, you know, uh a place for the kids to to want to bring all their their friends. Is it a place to just for you and someone else to enjoy for for the evening? Um, so um, you know, a lot of a lot of questions, and and sometimes that customer is gonna know a lot of those things and they just rattle them off to me, and I don't even have to kind of pry. And sometimes it's it's really pulling things out. And and I would say, um, you know, I don't I don't think I can probably pinpoint like three or five different questions um you know right off right off the top of my head. But um I would say like the biggest thing is just number one, um you know, from you know, from the beginning, it really it's really gonna just be a a part of just understanding that customer um and asking you know a lot of questions. Um and and really it just comes down to needing to know what you know what is it about this space that's gonna be you know important to you. Um, you know, simple questions, you know, do you like curved lines? Do you like um you know, do you like straight lines? Do you like you know, symmetrical, do you uh or is balanced appropriate? Uh and and I would say a lot of times it's uh it's not even like a question, but a picture, you know, a picture is worth a thousand, you know, words.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

So being able to picture in great detail the backyard that you want, uh what it looks like.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

Yeah, and having the emotion out of it, not just because that's where the if if you can draw not really what you want, but the feeling that you want to have, you know, that the feeling that you want to have is is much more impactful because again, it's it's my job to do the design part, uh, but it, you know, a lot of times people don't know where to start, you know, they have no idea. Um, and so um, you know, it's a combination of just simple questions about, you know, and and simple clues that you pick up on as well when you're talking to them. Sometimes, you know, you realize it's it's more for maybe, you know, the what the other spouse than you know the other, or yeah, or it's the family. And so just is it is it more just really getting down to the why is really the the big the big important part.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

Is it is it helpful for the homeowner to just start talking? Start talking about uh anything and everything you want to experience, feel, see, hear, smell. Yeah, and I mean just yeah, just let it go and feel feel comfortable enough to do that.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Yes, absolutely. And that's the big thing is once they they know that you're not there to um you know try to get one over on them or do something that's not right for them, um, you know, just letting them know, hey, look, I'm gonna ask a lot of questions. There may be some questions that I ask that you're asking yourself, like why would why does that matter? Yeah, um, and what it is is it's it's just a series of dot connecting for me. You know, it's um let me back up for a second though.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

Before we get to the dot connecting thing, that's a really cool um analogy you draw. But so I just want to draw uh a distinction between the the sales process and the design process, right? So at some point in the buying process, it seems like as a homeowner, you're gonna get a really good sense for who you want to work with before you sign a contract, right? And then um you're kind of gonna make your selection there, you're gonna have an idea or you should have an idea about price so that you understand this thing fits within your budget. Figure out what that ballpark price is. If that works within your budget, now it's down to um, and we've talked about this with Jason on on a few episodes here, but um getting to know the builder in such a way uh that you can have a gut check moment and decide, okay, this is the person or this is the company I I want I feel comfortable working with, right? Now you're gonna enter into the design process and begin to refine that price, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that that's uh I just wanted to talk about that because you mentioned it's not about somebody getting one over on you, right? Because you've got to you gotta feel comfortable with the builder in order to feel comfortable enough to open up to get the best design.

SPEAKER_01 18:23

Yeah, generally by the time you're at a design stage, you've already reached that point of um that comfortability with that contractor or that company that you're trusting them to you know fulfill that design. And a lot of times for me, it's it's also about asking what is it you hate or don't like? Because I think that's just as important as the the main things that you do know. And a lot of times people they don't know where to start. They they they feel like maybe I have to know every single thing before I even jump into the process. And um, you know, just letting them know it's like an evolving, this thing is not, you know, you already know exactly everything that you want, and then you know, just give me that information and I and I pull from it. It's kind of like a uh somewhat of a journey of of you know uh you know, uh as you're going through that process, really starting to catch clues and and different things. And um, and so I would say like if you don't quite know certain things, like that's per like that's okay. It's from it's my job to connect those dots that you can't quite figure out, yeah. Um, just by those clues that I'm that I'm catching just in in conversation or through um you know that overall process the design process.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

So um so just real real quick, you're you gotta feel comfortable with the person or company you want to work with. Make that decision first. Enter the design process, feel comfortable enough to open up because opening up allows the designer, whoever that is, to let's talk about that dot analogy.

SPEAKER_01 19:52

Yeah, yeah, that's that's the biggest one for me. Is uh and and I don't even know the name uh of these, it's like those dot puzzles, right? So like just connect the dots. Yeah, there's a there's a series of say a hundred nun dots, you know, labeled one through a hundred, and at the end of connecting all those dots, you know, it's gonna be you know a dinosaur or you know, or a picture of a of a beautiful landscape. A backyard pool. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Yeah, so you know, you start with a blank page, and so the more dots your designer can collect, your lifestyle, your preferences, even the things you hate, the better that final design is gonna be shaped around your life. But here's what many don't realize some of the most expensive surprises with in-ground pool projects have little to do with materials and things that you've actually decided on. Instead, they have a lot to do with what's going on in your backyard, underneath your feet. So, what's your advice to somebody who um is not gonna have the privilege of working with you? They live somewhere else in the country. Uh, what's what's your advice when they're assessing designs, giving feedback uh to their designer?

SPEAKER_01 21:04

Well, a big one is gonna be things that don't even revolve around design but uh make a huge impact, I mean, a critical uh impact in design. Um, and that's gonna be the site analysis. You know, if you're out there with a designer and they don't have some sort of tool to measure elevation or um or have any insight on that you know specific town or county that you're in, um, whether it's setbacks or restrictions, we deal a lot with um, you know, Northern Virginia and some different counties with either septic systems or um lot coverage, um you know, all kinds of different things. If they're not really understanding and really know anything about that, that could be you know a quick you know red flag.

SPEAKER_00 21:48

Um, you know, and if they you know if if the builder is not in tune with that as the homeowner, you get a sense for how come this this guy doesn't know this or this guy doesn't know this. That's a red flag.

SPEAKER_01 21:58

Yeah, yeah. Or if you're The backyard and going, like, well, do we need retaining walls, or like what goes on with the water here? Or, like, you know, if they're not doing a comprehensive site analysis, shooting elevations, getting detailed measurements, even if they have a survey, um, you know, that's critical because you know, if you're wrong or if something's not um, you know, an elevation is off, like that that is part of the design process is understanding do I need a wall? Do I need like how do I achieve that?

SPEAKER_00 22:28

What could happen? What surprises could come up if if um if we're not talking about elevation and those things early enough?

SPEAKER_01 22:35

I mean, critical. I mean, it could be a catastrophic event or or something where like describe one. Um, hey, you know, uh, I know you're at your budget, you know, you think you go into this thinking, you know, a certain budget, and then you get hit with, you know, a$40,000 retaining wall or um, you know, tens of thousands of dollars in engineering costs uh for uh land disturbance or conservation plans or um any of those things, that could derail the whole project.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

Um when do those you know, those surprises you want to know them about them up front. You've got to because you break ground and then the builder says, Oh, by the way, oh by the way, yeah, what are we doing here? Yeah, oh by the by, uh, and this is gonna cost you know, 40, 50, 60. Uh, because the retaining wall, not only is that needed now, but it's tall enough it needs an engineer's stamp. Yeah. Um, and you wanted to, you know, build your pool out this far, uh, but now you're encroaching on some sort of you know setback, an easement, a you know, a conservation, whatever, right? Um and so it can really, really derail. So that's good. Um, so you may not pick up on red flags or not, but ask the questions. What are my setbacks? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:52

What else? Have you worked in this county before? Do you understand all of the you know things that they may be requiring specific to this uh town or city or you know, wherever you are, making sure that they're really um familiar with uh working in that area. Yeah. And um, and that they're also with you uh in the yard, making sure that you're getting all those elevation readings and that, you know, when you ask, hey, you know, what you know, that looks high over there, what you know, what is that, or what is your plan for elevation or water um runoff, all those things are critical before, you know, that's kind of like the boring, you know, just data entry type of stuff. Yep. Uh, but it's just needed to analyze, kind of understand what the site's doing, and then prepare a plan specific to that. So like the way I work, and it may not be the same for everyone, but the way I work is I collect all that information, I then take it back, I get detailed photos, I get extensive grade readings, and then I'm gonna go back and analyze it. I'm not gonna sit there, usually, you know, and sometimes it it happens, but you know, more complex uh elevations and things are kind of going two different directions, and there's different things to you know be um cognizant of. Like I want to kind of have time to sit down and really understand what those elevations are doing and and and let that help me determine the the proper placement of the pool versus just putting the pool in, oh, you said you wanted it here, okay. You know, an order taker. Um, you know, a lot of times people fall into that trap of just taking orders. Hey, I wanted the pool here. Great. Well, you know, it could be that that particular location, and again, the customer doesn't understand or may not understand the implications of it being in that location, but that could mean the difference between um, you know, uh one of those big retaining wall situations, or um, maybe they hadn't thought through um the way they use the rest of the yard. And so kind of internalizing all that stuff for me is really important, but then also not being afraid to say, hey, I know you've said all these things, but I'm looking at the elevations and I'm looking at the site. Have you considered doing maybe putting the pool over here or maybe changing the size of the pool or you know, whatever it may be based on X, Y, and Z, um, and just letting them know why I'm thinking a certain way, and then just having, you know, having the permission from that customer to say, hey, are you okay with me maybe playing with that a little bit? Yeah, as long as I'm still hitting, you know, if we're talking, if you're a doctor, we're triaging the list of important things, like as long as I can hit those things, are you okay with maybe, you know, if if you put it here, we can save, you know, X amount on, you know, whatever that is, wall permitting, you know, so just um So are you are I'm not gonna ask a question.

SPEAKER_00 26:37

Well, I am sort of is it fair to say that um that a a customer is probably is not going to spend any more going with a professional designer versus an order taker? Because the risk is actually in um in bad discoveries into the project, right? Yeah. So if they were to work with a professional designer, be it um you who work directly for the pool company or a professional landscape designer who's gonna design something, a separate entity, and then provide that, you know, to the pool builder and and hardscape company. Um it sounds like it would be better to do that than to go with you know the company that's just giving you yes, yes, yes, yes, and just the order taker. Yep, we'll dig a hole, we'll put a pool in, slap some concrete on it, or whatever else, we can do anything. Is there what what's what's is that the risk?

SPEAKER_01 27:33

Yeah, and I mean at the end of the day, you're looking for someone to provide value. You know, you may or may not, I mean, you may be someone who understands construction and elevation. A lot of homeowners, they they don't, they're looking for um, they're looking for advice and you know, the they're looking for someone to help guide them instead of just you know, plop the pool, you know, where they thought it would go. And and maybe it would be a perfect, you know, placement, but then maybe, you know, maybe they're not thinking about some other things that could be a critical um thing. And you know, once the pool goes in, the project's done, you know, that's yeah, it's done. You know, you can't you can't go back.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

So um so work work with a professional.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

Uh yes, I I would yeah, definitely work with with someone who who knows and can show you, um, not just say, Oh yeah, that's elevation, like physically show uh with we use zip levels and different tools, you know, to to measure elevations and um and again to provide, you know, uh at the end of the day, it's it's provide as much value as I can, really understand the customer. And then when you, you know, that's that's what it's all about, is when you, you know, you you know, you show a design, you're like, you know, I love getting the man, I never thought about that. You know, that's but wow, that's that's per I couldn't articulate that in words. Um, and and that's what design is. It's not really, it's more of a feeling. It's not, you know, there's there's a lot of designs, like I said, that's perfect for one person, not perfect for the other. So it's um, you know, the emotion behind how you feel when you enter that space and um and how that space functions for you know the activities that you want to do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

So we've been talking about um things to do, things not to do, experience to look for. You, of course. Site analysis isn't glamorous, but asking the right questions during the design process could save you tens of thousands of dollars before a shovel ever goes in the ground. Now for the fun part. Let's look at what a professionally designed backyard actually looks like from the planning stage and what goes into every decision you see on screen. Trey, you you again, your your work is phenomenal. I'm looking around the office here in Riverpools, Virginia, and there's tons of projects just on the wall, things that you've designed. Uh, I'm looking at um two different T40s that you put in in Williamsburg. Yeah. Or designed rather. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely beautiful. But you've got back here, yeah um a project you designed for a homeowner. Yes. And why don't you grab your laptop? Sure. Give us give us a bit of a tour, like just like an overhead drone view tour, and talk through the different parts that this project in you know includes and a little bit about the design process. How are we gonna do this? Let's see.

SPEAKER_01 30:34

Yeah, so um, yeah, this is a project. If you've been on the website, you probably see this in our A series, um, the A35, um, where we're we're developing some kind of, you know, before that pool has ever gone in, you know, we need to be able to share, you know, uh iterations of that, you know, as a new model. So, you know, this is in uh the A35 model that is shown shown here. And so, yeah, this one is uh is cool. You know, it's uh you know, it was fairly fairly flat. Um and you know, things that they were wanting was that outdoor pavilion area. You know, they were wanting a lot of entertainment space. Um, they wanted that sound of water, so you can see those those deck jets. And you're connecting the dots here. These are all dots. All of these things, these are all dots. Yep, and sometimes people just spill it, spill the beans, you know, and sometimes it's like really having to pry those things out. And it's okay either way. Yeah. Um, but you know, the more the more information, like I said, whether it's something that you love or hate. I I love you know knowing what you don't like just as much as I need to know what you do like. Um, but but yeah, so some key factors here is you know, they want a tropical, a tropical vibe, they wanted um, you know, that outdoor pavilion with storage, they wanted a spot to uh incorporate uh a hot tub, which you'll see here in just a moment, like an integrated hot tub into the pool area. Um, and so you can see kind of a separate deck and how that deck gets down. So in this particular one, I wanted to avoid railings. That was one requirement. They want to see all you know, they want to see the pool. So that's a dot with me going, okay, well, your deck is this elevation, you know, there's code, you know, things that you have to account for, railings, um, things like that. So to solve that is okay, well, let's let's step, let's tier this uh in a way that we can eliminate some steps or railings and um and give you more of a view of the pool in that in that sense. So so that um they wanted a fire pit area, and a lot of times we talk about I talk about zones. So like what is a what is a year-round zone versus a non-year-round? So the pool is generally not used year-round. Maybe some some areas, you know, fortunately you can, but you know, where we are, it's not typically used all year. So when I'm thinking of that, I'm thinking, okay, hot tub, fire pit, grilling. You're talking the the outdoor living space. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

How many different areas could you use in different seasons?

SPEAKER_01 33:10

And then also, like, okay, well, if the fire pit and the hot tub are like a fall sports game, winter activity, you don't want to put those on two separate ends of the space because you're kind of using all those things at the same time. So thinking through not only how you're using this space in the summer, you know, we're talking pools, um, but in many cases, it's more than just a pool, it's uh it's year-round uh entertainment uh and functionality. And so how you know thinking thinking those things through is also you know really important. But you know, when I'm when I'm presenting to customers, we're you know, showing things in in 3D like this, we're going, okay, well, you don't like that color. We can you know, real time make changes to materials. You'll see how much detail I don't put into the house, as you see in the background. And the reason why um is because uh you know that the house is already there, it's designed. We know what that looks like. Uh, a lot of times I'll put that as just like a white, you know, a white square. So one time, you know, sometimes I I see designers, they they spend half a day making the house look exactly like the house, and then they put a design together that's okay. Um, I would rather focus my energy on, you know, that view, you know, the from the you know from the house. Yeah. Take a step out of your deck, you're walking out, or you're in your home looking out. Yeah, yeah. And so sometimes it it makes it important to kind of show some of those details. Other times it's it's just you know, wasting time. Um so yeah, this is a project that um lots of different ways to approach creativity, yeah. For sure. So just again, all kinds of different things, trying to understand that customer, tropical feel, um, full visuals of the pool, they entertain year-round.

unknown 34:56

Right.

SPEAKER_00 34:57

That's what the design process looks like when it's done right. Here's something that surprises a lot of homeowners. The cost of the outdoor living space around the pool could actually equal or exceed the cost of the pool itself. But there are smart ways to approach this conversation with your project designer. Um so let me ask you the big question. What uh what ballpark would something like this cost?

SPEAKER_01 35:28

Yeah, great question. Um, all in all, I would say this could easily be, you know, 250 to 300. Again. For the whole full outdoor living space with the pool. Yeah, and again, that's when we get into details of like, okay, I've I've hear what you're saying. You love the vibe of the pool space, but say the budget is just crept up too high. That's when you start, you know. That was my follow-up question. We can change materials real time. We can show you some different ways to condense or to um modify, you know, the whether it's you know, instead of going pavers or you know, natural stone, we could go you know, mix some concrete in there, um, which you know, I think you know, having concrete, you've got a lot of um things that you can do with concrete.

SPEAKER_00 36:09

Start us at the top of that you said 300, maybe at the top. Okay, so shave uh how could how could you shave$50,000 out of this project?

SPEAKER_01 36:16

I mean, the easiest approximately the first one is gonna be um patio. Um and so a lot of times we talk about coping, which is like the immediate edge of the pool, you know, various materials there. Then we talk about the main body of the patio, so pavers, natural stone, concrete, wood, treks, you know, whatever. Um, so that's the easiest one without changing that's the easiest one for for me, without changing anything in the like everything is as is, like, you know, patio layout, but just change the material. Maybe it's concrete, maybe you're doing half concrete and half pavers.

SPEAKER_00 36:50

Um, maintain all of the design features and outdoor living space elements, just change, just changing the materials you work.

SPEAKER_01 36:58

And I would ask that customer, you know, here's a couple things we can do. Based on that, sometimes the first thing, oh yeah, let's let's do you know textured concrete. Sometimes, like that's a non-negotiable. You know, we gotta have this paper, we love it. Okay, well, maybe we condense it and maybe still provide the function, okay, but just kind of condense it down a little bit. Yeah, yeah. Um or or we phase, we phase things um and still give you something to kind of look forward to, you know, break it down into different, you know, to different zones, if you will, of uh of phasing while still providing, you know, the the function of that space in the interim until you are able to kind of go with that full that full dream dream yard. And sometimes it's hey, this is just um, you know, we said this, but you know, it's just uh we we've kind of condensed as much as we can, we've we've uh changed as much as we can, and we're still over. And then we just maybe, okay, maybe we go to the the A30. You know, you told me it's just you and you know, you have uh your grandson comes over every now and then, like based on what you're telling me, you know, the the 30 model may be the perfect fit, and we can kind of really shrink things down and and uh just you know make suggestions to to kind of make it work for them.

SPEAKER_00 38:15

So just in this project right here, shrinking the pool size, easy, uh swapping deck material, patio materials, and maybe shrinking the patio space a little bit, right? Could drop fifty thousand dollars out of this project.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

Yeah, easily.

SPEAKER_02 38:28

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:29

I mean it it it I always tell customers it can go up very quick and it can come down very quick, right? But some things for you know, for one customer, it may be, like I said, a non-negotiable, right? You know, and then it's like, okay, well, that's another dot because I can't that checks that off the list. Right now, let's go to plan B or um you know other ways to to kind of solve that problem. Yeah. But yeah, there's there's all kinds of ways. I mean, the the big thing for me is just um helping helping people visualize that space, letting them know it's okay to make changes. You know, this is a say, you know, there's multiple ways for this to look amazing. It doesn't have to look exactly like this. It could you know invert everything, change the pool color, change the materials, um, you know, change um, you know, the the materials of the wall or how the the deck interacts, you know, there's all kinds of I think what what a lot of people um don't realize is and I and I get this from um just observations, comments I see online and the the Facebook groups, and people are comparing uh comparing budgets and asking questions and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 39:32

Um, or they're just blown away. Yeah, keep that back up there. Almost. There we go. Um people are you know sometimes blown away, like holy smokes, how could a pool cost that much? That's ridiculous, right? I see it all the time.

SPEAKER_01 39:49

And some of the things are things that I and I'm glad you pointed that out because some things aren't design related in that budget. Some things could be things like a heater or a heater chiller, yeah, or um things that don't physically you don't see them, it's just more of a function of the pool itself. Right. Um, that can maybe come later.

SPEAKER_00 40:05

But what I find, what I find most often is that what drives the total cost of the project is the outdoor living space around the pool. So even if you put a pool in with um a standard um, you know, uh filtration and sanitation system, you you throw an automatic cover on there because um safety, or you or you want to, you know, uh just have peace of mind and and easier maintenance. So pool, filter, automatic cover, maybe you do or don't get a heater. That's that's a pretty standard pool package, right? Now, what sort of outdoor living space do you want around it? And you could easily match the cost of that base pool that we just talked about. Um, that's not necessarily a base package. I don't want to confuse base package for that, but that's a very common setup for a pool. Um, but then that outdoor living space around it could easily match the cost of the pool or and a lot of times exceed it uh by far. And so that's where so much of the expense often comes in, um, is in the outdoor living space around the pool. But how often are people, you know, how much time are they spending outside? Or are they it's sort of hard to measure, but they're it it seems that they are designing a space so that they can be outside more than they are inside. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:18

Um, yeah, and that kind of um you know makes me think about like uh budget and being open and honest, you know, with us because a lot of times I'll tell a customer, like, what I don't want to do is I don't want to underachieve what your vision is, but I also don't want to go so above and beyond, you know, what your uh capacity uh or budget for this particular project is that it's unattainable. Sure. Um and so that's also again part of that dot collecting of like, okay, well, um you're saying, you know, this, this, this, and this, you know, based on that, say we're you know, it's it's slightly out of reach, and then try to provide some uh some some ways to still check the boxes or the most important things. Um it's it's be realistic.

SPEAKER_00 42:05

It's good to open up with the design team about how much, you know, what what the budget is.

SPEAKER_01 42:09

It's gonna make it a lot, it's gonna make it go a lot smoother because it'll probably be a lot less revisions. Yeah. Um and now there is the one-off, like, you know, you don't uh those those retaining walls that you don't expect, you know, you weren't factoring those things in. Again, critical reason why you need to have someone who's understanding the sites and who's doing a really good analysis of of the yard. Um but yeah, that's the the more the more I'm connected with that person and and we're on the we're kind of in the same path. And I'm yeah, we're kind of like, always playing with the same information, yes. And and you know, that's why it's super critical to just be open and honest. And obviously that that you know um requires building somewhat of a relationship with someone to feel trusting, because a lot of times, you know, people and I and I get it because I'm a consumer just like everybody else. So, you know, you you say a certain budget, and then you think that, you know, well, you know, I've heard the you know in your back of your mind you're thinking, oh well, you know, maybe I I don't want to say the budget because they're gonna maybe um inflate something or or try to spend every dollar on it. Yeah, spend every dollar versus just you know what I yeah, you know, what I can get and and what's you know real. So but at the end of the day, that's a critical thing. But we can walk through that with you real time, showing materials, showing things.

SPEAKER_00 43:24

How often how often do you get a budget number from a homeowner and then you come back with a design that is well under their number? Like, hey, I think we can achieve what you were envisioning um under that, you know, under your maximum. Does that happen often?

SPEAKER_01 43:41

I would say every now and then, um, small things. I see more of people telling me a budget and then we go through the process of what's that dream space looking like materials, um function, structure, whatever it is in that backyard, and I'm thinking. To myself, wow, that's you know, you're probably about 70 or 100,000 under maybe what is gonna be a realistic number, and then and then you explain that, and then so they just you'd be surprised how many people would actually go, you know, increase their budget based on based on that. Because some again, some people just they they don't quite know, but sure they want what they they want. So it's kind of like that fine line of gathering that information, but also taking all those clues and dots that you've you've gathered to kind of be able to go back to them, you know, you know, with real data and information and and be open and honest both ways. Like, hey, I hear what you're saying. Out of that, it may be slightly out of reach of what we talked about budget-wise, but we can either reduce that or we can change that pool or we can, you know, um modify and and create something that still works. And it sounds like a surprise. I mean, times people are like, nah, I think yeah, I want what I want.

SPEAKER_00 44:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it sounds you know, the it sounds like the homeowner really is in the driver's seat. Um, especially if you get um if you've made that gut check decision to work with a builder that you think is gonna um you know work well with you. Uh and and uh I I think it was Jeff Shabak in a previous episode says you gotta understand you're gonna sort of be married to the builder for three months. Um and you're gonna work with them a lot and make the make let that weigh in on the decision like about who you're gonna work with. But you find the right person, you know, you can work within your budget, you can expand, you're you can ultimately get what you want in the designs. Well, the costs can go up fast, they can also come down fast. The key is knowing what's non-negotiable for you, and being honest with your design team about the rest. So if you're ready to start planning, here's exactly where Trey suggests you begin. No designer required. Uh, what I want to do is uh before we close out, is I I want to have an opportunity to put a couple of your pictures, a couple of your designs, finished projects up on the screen. And while those are flashing through, um just you know, what what are the some of the takeaways from today? What is there anything else we need to cover? Uh some things that uh you just want to make sure homeowners walk away with, whether they're working with you or anybody else out there in the country?

SPEAKER_01 46:25

I would say um, like I was saying at the beginning, like a picture is worth a thousand words. Sometimes uh the more times people can't articulate what they're wanting, right? But they can gather a Pinterest board. And I can that's that's helpful too. I would say just start start the research and planning and and like I said, understanding what you don't want is just as important as knowing what you do want. Um, you know, gathering, gathering all that, the the more that customer has really defined the most important things and what it the why behind it and what it is that they're that they're after, that's gonna help me kind of get get to that end result that the customer wants even even quicker. Um and like I said, just being open and honest is the best the best you know thing you can ask for.

SPEAKER_00 47:10

Yeah. So pick picture that space ahead of time, uh be willing to be open. No, it's a process, it's gonna take a little bit of time. Creativity is messy, and um, and lean into the process and just understand uh that it's gonna take a few rounds before you land on a design that you really want. So Trey, thanks for coming. Yeah, man. Appreciate it, man. Love it. Yeah, it's been a good time. Uh I've got ideas for more episodes. We'll talk more once we wrap this one up. But um yeah, you're definitely coming back. I don't care what your schedule says, we're gonna have you back on because there's more things uh I want to pull out of your head and share with the world. Yeah. Sound good to you? Yeah, man. Thank you, bud. Thank you. Start the research. Know what you don't want as much as what you do want, and lead into the process with as much time as it deserves. The right design for you, for your family in your backyard, it's worth a few rounds. If you're beginning a pool for your backyard, head on over to Riverpoolsandspas.com and check out the self-guided tools like the shape and size tool, the pool type selector, or even the pool cost calculator, so that you can understand critical information necessary that'll help you long before you begin speaking with an independent installation company or a project designer. I'm Christian with River Pools. You've been listening or watching the Pool Guides Podcast.