How Much Patio Space Do You Need Around a Pool? With Trey Watford

Most homeowners spend more time around their pool than in it. Which means the patio, the deck, and the gathering spaces around the water carry most of the experience. So how do you plan that space well?

In this episode, Cristian sits down with Trey Watford, lead designer at River Pools Virginia, for a practical, design-driven conversation about patio square footage. They cover the realistic averages, the dimensions behind every common gathering space, and the side-by-side comparisons that show why allocation matters more than total size. If you're planning a fiberglass pool and trying to figure out how much patio you actually need, this one's for you.

In this episode

• Why patios get underestimated and how to avoid the most common regrets • The honest average patio size, and when your needs land outside it • How much room each zone really needs (conversation, dining, fire pit, hot tub, grill, outdoor kitchen) • Minimum walkway widths around the pool for safety and comfort • Practical ways to visualize your space at home before signing anything • How to phase your patio over time without ending up with a patchwork look

About Trey Watford

Trey Watford is the lead designer at River Pools Virginia. He brings a Virginia Tech background in landscape architecture and years of hands-on experience designing high-end outdoor living spaces around fiberglass pools.

Watch the video version on YouTube to see Trey's design walkthroughs on screen. Search The Pool Guides Podcast.

Start planning your pool at riverpoolsandspas.com.

Catch the wave.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

One quick note before we jump in. Today's episode is a screen share kind of day. Our guide pulls up real projects, real layouts, and walks us through every inch of them in real time. You'll be able to generally follow along by listening, but for the full visual experience and the oh wow moments, you may want to watch this episode on YouTube. Just search the Pool Guides Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

Yeah, because a lot of times they'll say, I want a bunch of lounging space, but then they say, Oh, I think, you know, maybe eight feet over here, you know, it could be a little tight for that. I hear a lot of like, you know, um, let me, you know, six feet all the way around the pool. But we could take that and kind of just move it around a little bit. That same square footage is now going to be a much, much more functional, you know, use of the square footage. So it's it's not only the square footage, but also like how it's being utilized to make the most of every every single square foot of the space.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Hello, friends. Welcome to the pool guides podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:07

I'm Christian with River Pools, and this is a show designed to help you bring all of the information together you need to make confident decisions long before you break ground on a pool for your backyard.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Now, here's something most homeowners don't realize until it's too late. About 90% of your time at the pool will be spent around it, not in it. That means the patio, the decking, the square footage, all of those spaces, the outdoor living spaces that are outside of the water, that's where most of your experience will happen. And if you get it, if you design it with the wrong size, you put it in the wrong place, or it's the wrong shape, you're gonna feel it every single day.

SPEAKER_02 1:51

Today we're sitting down with Trey Wafford. He's a repeat guest on the show, and he's also the lead project designer for Riverpools, Virginia. If you check out his last appearance, you'll quickly get a sense for how much passion Trey has for outdoor living space design.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

He just flat out thinks about it differently. In today's episode, he is gonna walk us through several different designs, and he's gonna talk real spaces, real numbers, and he's gonna have a comparison. He's gonna take the same project and create two different designs around the same project that I promise will make you think about your outdoor living space and your outdoor pool project a little bit differently.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

Trey Watford. Welcome back, my friend. I told you this wasn't gonna take too long.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

Yeah, this is exciting. I was uh it's kind of crazy. I was very nervous the first time, um, which is kind of funny because I've known you for I've known you forever. Like I've you know, it's the office, like it's nothing new, maybe I I don't know. But uh yeah, thanks for having me back. It was the lights, the camera. We made Trey nervous, everybody. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, like, oh, am I gonna do a good job? Am I gonna stutter? Or, you know, who knows?

SPEAKER_02 3:05

No, it was it was great. Actually, um I I've gotten some feedback already on that episode, which was about uh just how to approach pool design. Uh, if you haven't listened to it, go back, check it out. And pool of or uh Trey, of course, is a pool designer or project designer with River Pools, Virginia. Um and this is your and this is your life passion, man, outdoor landscape, outdoor living space design um of all kinds. And so we the previous episode was about um, or the previous episode with you was about uh your approach to it, your recommendations to homeowners um as they're considering designing a space or adding a pool to their backyard. But how do you how do you bring all of the things together, all the parts necessary to design the space that really uh meets your needs and matches your lifestyle? So it was a great episode and I got great feedback on it, and decided uh before we were done recording that I had to have you back on because I have all these ideas, all these questions running through my head that I know homeowners have as well. And so today we're talking about patio, uh patio space in particular, and you're going to help us bring some uh understanding, some vision to how uh how much space can be on a patio, like square footage, like how much space do we need for different gathering spaces? Anyway, uh I know you've got tons of ideas, and I just want to again bring this stuff out in front of people uh because I think it'll be helpful for them as they're planning a pool project.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

So yeah, yeah, it's gonna be fun. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

Yeah, I did want to start with an interesting stat. Um, I actually don't know where this comes from, uh, but if I think back to every time I've been at a pool with friends, family, I think it's pretty darn true. 90% of the time around a pool is actually spent around the pool, not in the pool. So if you were to add up all the time, you people are enjoying their pools. They're actually only in the water about 10% of the time, which makes the space around the pool that much more important and the thoughtful design around that. When you sit down with homeowners early in the design process, how often is the patio underestimated?

SPEAKER_00 5:23

Um sometimes, I mean, I would say um it's all over the place. Um, and that's where that's so important and critical to like really like figure out well, what what's the appropriate square foot specific to you? Number one. Uh, number two, um, is there limitations to how much square footage we can put in here based on lot coverage or um setbacks or all those things? So, like again, kind of going back to the last episode of like site analysis, like it's um that's all kind of part of it. But uh again, you know, it's um people are kind of all over the place. Sometimes they they think they want um, or it's not really the square footage, uh, but more or less like how it's allocated that that a lot of times that that's they're kind of way off in left field somewhere. Um and and then I help kind of guide them to like not not expanding the square footage, but simply reallocating it into a into a way that is actually more functional, you know, for specifically for what they're what they're asking for.

SPEAKER_02 6:23

So it's not like that they ever um don't give enough attention to the design of the patio space. They they they think that they need more space here or there and and don't quite understand how or what the options might be in the configuration for the patio is what I hear you saying.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

Yeah, because lots of times they'll say, I want a bunch of lounging space, but then they say, Oh, I think you know, maybe eight feet over here, um, which, you know, that's a you know, it can be done, but you know, it could be a little tight for that, or like the people, but I hear a lot of like, you know, um, let me, you know, six feet all the way around the pool kind of thing, where it's like, hey, that's a certain square footage. Um, but we could take that and kind of just move it around a little bit, that same square footage is now going to be a much, much more functional um, you know, use of of the square footage. So um, yeah, it's it's not only the square footage, but also like how it's being utilized to make the most of every every single square foot of the space.

SPEAKER_02 7:22

Do you find that homeowners, and I struggle with this, do you find that they have a hard time visualizing the square footage, like the space? Like if I were to say, oh, six feet of concrete or six feet of decking all the way around the pool, I can sort of understand what that would look like. Um, but do you find people generally hit like hit their expectation or they have a hard time visualizing what that actually will look like?

SPEAKER_00 7:45

Uh both. Um, and a lot of times people aren't really even speaking in terms of square footage, they're just speaking in terms of like, hey, I want um to do this over here, or or you know, I need uh, you know, just through those questions and understand the customer, you know, if you're someone with family needs six lounge chairs, you know, that's you got to take that into account and then uh the site. But then um I kind of instead of kind of boxing us into a certain square footage from the beginning, I you know, you try to listen and then um and then provide some things uh, you know, to to nail that in the most cost-effective uh way a lot of times, um, you know, just by by again how we arranging uh the square footage in general.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Um so the patio space around the pool matters more than most people give it credit for. So why do so many homeowners still get it wrong?

SPEAKER_02 8:48

Do you do you run into homeowners who have regret over the patio space or configuration? Have you run into that?

SPEAKER_00 8:57

Yes, um, I have, but a lot of times, a lot of times if I'm you know, if we're starting from the beginning, maybe it's not the pool that we're planning now, it's the pool maybe they had somewhere else or one that they experienced um, you know, uh at on vacation or something, and then maybe they're trying to mimic that just because that's just what they knew. But um, but then in looking at it and kind of you know, understanding more about that space that they're referring to, you go, okay, well, if we did this, this, and this, we could we could like double the amount of usable area here, or um, or you know, sometimes people are are like, yeah, that you know, that would be you know, that would be awesome.

SPEAKER_02 9:36

Um so they're coming to the table with some sort of typically they're coming to the table with an idea, something that they've experienced elsewhere. They think it'll work for them, and then or or they know it won't work for them, which is also a good starting point. I mean, back to the last episode, that's a dot for you, right? Yeah, yep. Um and then you walk them through configuration options and and land on the best concept for them.

SPEAKER_00 10:03

Yeah, like yeah, I didn't have enough space for you know for my lounge chairs, or every time I did uh want to use the space for what I thought I'd be using it for. Now I'm blocking maybe a pathway to the pool or to the house or to the grill or to wherever, the yard, you know, wherever you're going. And then it, you know, that's definitely something I see a lot of.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

All right, so we know what trips people up. Now let's get to the question everyone asks pretty early in their design process. How much patio space do I actually need?

SPEAKER_02 10:39

So let's go to the big question. How much patio space do I need? If I'm planning a pool project, how how do you even how do you even begin to answer that question?

SPEAKER_00 10:50

Yeah, I mean, again, this is uh another, it it depends, which is kind of a boring way to say it. But um, you know, we can speak averages, you know, the average pool patio is between six and nine hundred square feet just historically. Um, but as we go through it with customers, you know, uh as we're at the very beginning, like just budget uh type of uh type of talks, kind of going through that, but also at the same time, you tell them like you know, you may be a person where half of the average square footage is exactly what you need, and you may be someone who needs 2,000 square feet of uh active, you know, space um you know, in in there. So um, you know, you can we can talk about averages, but then uh really like to tailor it specific to you know to that customer, um, you know, and obviously the site too.

unknown 11:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:39

Okay, talking numbers are useful, but they really only go so far on a podcast. Let's take a look at a project Trey is in the process of designing right now, and let's talk through some of the spaces he's put together and some real numbers that you can take and implement with your project, especially if you're beginning to consider furniture.

SPEAKER_02 12:06

So I'm gonna ask you to pull up. Um, I know you've got a couple screens set up. I would like to see a visual of what six to nine hundred square feet of cong or you know, of deck looks like around a particular mool and pool. And while you're pulling that up, what is the biggest or the most square footage you've ever designed around a pool and was actually built?

SPEAKER_00 12:27

The most, um gosh, I would say somewhere in the probably 2,000 square feet. I mean, anything over 2,000 square feet, it's like, you know, um, is this a basketball court in the winter? You know, it's uh you start getting into like a very large area, but I would say a thousand to two thousand square feet is kind of more considered like a large a fairly large, you know, patio.

SPEAKER_02 12:52

Yeah, you know, patio. Yeah, that's a pretty big footprint. Yeah, pull your screen up because I want to see what what you know what the average is.

SPEAKER_00 13:00

Yeah, let's do it.

SPEAKER_02 13:02

You also hear a lot of builders um will advertise um you know in in base packages. They're trying to put promotionals together and they'll say, Oh, there'll be a pool of this size and three feet of concrete all the way around it, you know? It'd be good to get a visual on that. Why don't you go ahead and share your screen?

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Yeah, let's do it. Um, this is one um I actually did yesterday. Uh so we're we're actually meeting with this customer at uh three o'clock today just to kind of go over things and make any alterations or things like that. But um and I'll I'll break down this is gonna be one that's gonna be more you know, an average six to nine hundred square feet. You'll see that's six hundred square feet right there. Um, and so you can see this, uh, and we'll get into three D here in a second, but just to help with like the 2D visuals here, uh, we've got you know the pool area, it's an R28. Um, this particular customer, it's uh mostly just her. Um this is for her. She said on uh occasion her husband or maybe a friend. Uh so this is supposed to be kind of like a cozy, a cozy corner is the right way to kind of describe um, I guess, the vibe or like the feeling that she wanted here. Um and we were we were you know um restricted a little bit with some septic setbacks, which you'll see this big, this big red circle is like a no-go zone um just due to the septic and the distribution box. But this is a um a quick example of a 600 square foot patio area, um, and then an additional 170 square feet based on this exact walkway to kind of land in that six to nine hundred square foot range. And again, there's a lot of ways to orient this. This particular one, which we'll we'll jump into 3D really quick here, um for for everyone, and you know it'll make sense um you know when once we get it up on the screen, but but the main the main focus here was cozy corner. Uh it's like I said, it's mostly mostly her, right? So she wants you know this little tranquil area here to to again, it's mostly just her, maybe a friend, maybe her husband. Um it's uh um you know someone who's I think maybe in their 60s. Uh there's no kids, no kids here.

SPEAKER_02 15:26

Um she's just looking for a quiet place to escape.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

Yeah, and surrounded by trees and and nature, and so you know, they've got this uh this massive deck here, um, and we'll we'll be able to fly around here. But what I like to do in my designs is if she wants a cozy corner, it's tucked away. There's this other big water feature in the center of the yard that I don't want to like compete with that because it's its own little thing going on. So I wanted to create like a little nook that is um kind of screened off by using some some um you know some more conical upright street trees that don't get too too large, but do give you can see that blocked visual. Um and then also from her son room, which is this window set here, um, this is also like almost like a sneak peek into this pool space that you can catch a glimpse of from just this room. Um, but in order to get to this space, like I said, what she's gonna have to do is they're gonna have to navigate outside, and then what they're gonna need to do is you know, enter through, you know, through this area here. So uh this is what kind of it, you know, it builds up um uh like a sense of discovery of you know, you're once you pass through this this uh type of like a trellis type of environment, boom. Now now you you land at like the arrival um of the space. Um and that's just all done through just subtle, subtle things like the way the landscape beds are are kind of um hugging around the the pool area. And um, and again, this is gonna provide enough area for she just wanted enough for like uh a set of lounge chairs and maybe maybe just uh you know a set of just uh like you know chairs like you see here, something to just be able to sit there and and uh relax. But but mostly the goal here is to be um kind of immersed in in this this area and be kind of like a little destination spot while not being far from the house at all. Obviously, the house is right there.

SPEAKER_02 17:26

Well, if you could go up, well you can hear you can hear Trey in your voice and just uh how deep you went into the details of this project, how how much you enjoy uh designing these spaces for people. Pull it pull the screen back up because I want to see a top-down uh in that 3D view and get you to uh just sort of with your mouse, when I I'll ask, you know, to to highlight the the six to nine hundred square feet of space. So if you can go like like a drone view, bird's view, straight down from the top. Yeah, yeah, that's great. And so everything in that what we're looking at, if um if you're not watching this, you're just listening, uh this is a river pools R28. So the pool itself is 28 feet long and I think uh 14 feet wide, um 15 feet wide, and um and we've got he's got a concrete uh patio around it, and um it's you know not as much concrete on the far side of the pool or the deep end of the pool. All of the concrete, all the square footage is pulled towards the one long side and the shallow end. So so what you're saying right there is around the pool right now is about 600 square feet?

SPEAKER_00 18:42

Yep, it should be right at 600 for everything that we're looking at, you know, okay top down right here. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 18:48

And so there's enough room for what type of furniture in this in this setup. Just walk us through, you know, the in in this configuration where where the square footage is pulled more towards one side in the shallow end. Yeah, what what's what what kind of different furniture options would there be? Outdoor, I call them gathering spaces, right? If you're not in the water, where are you going to be hanging out in in different spaces? So describe what could be done here.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

Sure. So the two sides we've got, you can see there's an auto cover there, so that kind of throws um some of uh some things in the mix, but essentially three feet on those two backsides, you know, that three foot around the pool, you hear a lot of that a lot of like in like um you know, base packages, things like that. Uh essentially what that's gonna do is it gives you enough to walk around the pool if they need to maintain it or skip, you know, clean it and just access you know all sides of the pool. Um, the other two sides of the pool where there's not a bump out for specific furniture, uh, I have five feet. And what five feet is gonna do is that's gonna be um the minimum I would suggest for having um just more of that traffic. Say someone's going to the steps and someone's walking from the steps, just enough to give two people enough to walk freely, you know, without knocking one into the pool. Yeah, exactly. Um, and then then we break into these other areas here. And I don't know if you want me to keep the screen here or if you want me to um move it around, but um but essentially what we've got here is Yeah, feel free to move around a little bit and just give us a better, a better sense.

SPEAKER_02 20:17

I see what you're saying about five feet so you can walk past each other. Um that's you know, it would be a safety thing by a pool. Real quick, before you go into these spaces, is there a minimum you need to have by code?

SPEAKER_03 20:30

Around the pool?

SPEAKER_02 20:31

I don't you may have to check it out. For walking paths, for walking paths, maybe?

SPEAKER_00 20:36

I don't know for code. Uh, you know, and this is you know, this isn't commercial, it's you know, we're mostly dealing with residential. Um uh, you know, I've I've seen pools with as little as just a 12 or 14-inch coping, you know, set into like an open field of grass, which again um looks amazing, kind of that timeless look. So I don't think there's any like specifics like on that. Now there's some engineering stuff with regards to like how much patio and at least in fiberglass with uh auto covers and T anchors and different things like that under the ground that are going on structurally, but um nothing really like code uh here.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

So walk us through walk us through these these these gathering spaces here and and the furniture that's that's placed in this rendering and what else might work.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

Yeah, so this is uh this is an area again. This is kind of the arrival. Um, so you you come through, boom, now you're at the pool. So that's an easy set right here, just a pair of chairs. Um, this could be a spot to read a book, or uh, if you don't feel like laying down like in a lounge chair or something like that. But uh it could be, you know, this say you wanted you know a dining room set over there. I still made this deep enough, which I believe is 10 feet. I'll have to look at the 2D um really quick here. Yeah, uh 10 feet. So, yeah, with 10 feet, um, that is a multi. Functional space now where say the sun is hitting uh at a certain time of day where like it makes the most sense to have you know your chase loungers right here. Great, you can do that. Um and and say you wanted like a dining room set or something here, or maybe like a big couch uh with like a little fire pit area or um you know something like that, or just additional, you know, chase loungers. Maybe that's one of those times where you got, you know, um some girlfriends over, you know, or you know, family, and and you want more, you know, more chase lounge area. So um, so I'm kind of always thinking through a lot of those things, like how how is the space going to work uh with multiple different scenarios. Um but and what's the what's the typical what's the typical length of a Shays Lounge?

SPEAKER_02 22:51

It's seven feet, right?

SPEAKER_00 22:52

Yep, yep. So I like to do seven feet nine, ten feet, you know, you want say seven feet for the chair, you want two or three feet minimum, like between say this this view here, you know, this width. Just that way you don't have a chair. And that's why I was saying a lot of people say, I want eight feet. Well, that's yeah, we could fit the chase lounger on eight feet, but you know, if someone wants to get through there, now you're moving chairs around and you're you know, you're uh really encroaching on on just the uh the walking area to move around um space. So and again, there's a million ways to make 600 square foot, 600 square feet. There's another uh that I'll pull up here as we go through it, where I'll show you a little bit bigger patio, a little over a thousand square feet, and how you can make two of the same spaces look dramatically uh different, uh both in form and function and just uh feeling as well. So um, so yeah, those are kind of just some things I'm thinking about.

SPEAKER_02 23:52

Not everyone has a designer at their disposal, depending on where you are in the process.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

So before you sign the contract, here are a few free, surprisingly effective ways you can visualize the outdoor living space you want starting today.

SPEAKER_02 24:15

Yeah, yeah. Uh well the the 3D rendering um is uh and the and a 2D rendering is super helpful. What are some other ways that homeowners can visualize their patio space before you know they they sign the dotted line? What other what other methods can they use, maybe on their own, or if their builder doesn't have I mean, there are some builders and and project designers out there that prefer I'll say pen and paper, um they're but they're really sketching things out by hand. That's that's creatively how they how they function best. But you know, how how can a homeowner um have a you know have a conversation with themselves or a significant other and sort of visualize, you know, a walk a walkway or how much patio space, where they want the pool to go. Um what are some tips you have there?

SPEAKER_00 25:05

Uh a couple of things. Uh, I mean the simple one, you know, the old uh, you know, uh get your garden hose out and like lay out the pool and you know, try to flag uh the area in the yard. Um and then if you have you know a lot of times people maybe they have a furniture set they you know want to you know incorporate, like physically putting some stuff out there, some chairs, like uh people seeing people put cardboard boxes and places of things, but just trying to um uh trying to physically put some things in that area or like walking around the inside of your home, whether say you want an outdoor entertainment space or an outdoor living room, if you will. Well, why don't you check out your living room and kind of get a visual of how big that space is and and then envision that, you know, with uh you know the open sky uh instead of that ceiling that you have and like furniture-wise, and and just kind of think about those uh those things. Um a lot of different ways.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

Yeah, that's a good idea. So once you get a feel for the size and the overall layout of the outdoor living space you want around your pool, the next layer is to begin filling those zones. Some call them zones, I call them gathering spaces. Whatever term you choose to use, this is where the excitement builds and the magic begins to happen.

SPEAKER_02 26:30

So um I I again I call them gathering spaces. I think you were you were calling them you know different zones. Um let's let's talk about that. Let's talk about some more zone configurations. Um let's see here. So when you're when you're laying out a design, how are you what things are you considering to help decide you know where the zones are going to go, how big the zones need to be, where are you pulling all of that from and and how are you coming up with recommendations for homeowners?

SPEAKER_00 27:06

Um again, all through that big deep discovery, because again, every site's different, every person's different, the sites are all the constraints are different. So just kind of listening to how they use the space and what the um, you know, like the one the next example I'll show you, like they've got an existing deck and an existing patio, they're kind of branching off of that, kind of tucking this in a way into like the the like they're actually clearing some some woods and some forest out there to tuck tuck this in on the side. So, like thinking through how they're getting from the house to there, um, what happens outside the fence. So, and in this uh example I'll show, you know, the cooking and stuff like that is not in the pool area, but they also kind of want like an area for dining within the pool so that they can kind of just let that area blend right into the pool space um while still creating that again that sense of discovery or arrival of like, hey, you can kind of see maybe the pool area, but you don't see all of it, and like, hey, what's around the corner? And then you get there and it opens it opens up. Um, so um, yeah, I don't even remember the question that you're asking me, but yeah, I mean, just I mean, there's so many things I'm thinking about.

SPEAKER_02 28:08

Um, it was it was how how do you decide, you know, which which zone to put to put where around a pool.

SPEAKER_00 28:15

And we talked about the one I get the last episode of like um uh four season zones, uh two season zones, so like making sure they're not on opposite ends, um, thinking about like a lot of times hot tubs and things like that, you know, how far is that from the house to get into the house uh from that space?

SPEAKER_02 28:33

Um so go back to the four season zones. Um if you if you haven't listened to the to that particular episode, you're you're talking about creating spaces or zones that can work not just for the summer season, but spring, fall, maybe winter, right? And and so you're you're not just creating a pool deck, you're you're trying to help homeowners create zones that will work well beyond swim season. Um and I get I goes back to if 90% of your time out at your pool is not spent in the water, I you would want to design all of that space around it to be as functional as possible for as much time as possible. So it's not just a you know a one season, a three-month space to enjoy, right? Yeah. What is uh what what would you say is the most um is the most popular zone, like the most requested zone? Uh obviously a space to sit or lounge would be good, but beyond that, what is the most requested space that homeowners really want to incorporate? Um, and are there any that are commonly overlooked, maybe that you suggest often that people don't even think about?

SPEAKER_00 29:46

Um, yeah, that kind of answer, well, I would say fire pit is like a natural one because that kind of brings people together. It's like a I don't know, just our and our DNA to like you know enjoy just sitting around a fire. Um that's a big one. Obviously, that's a four-season thing. But also at the same time, like to answer your second question is about like how much and how important is that fire pit area. And what I mean by that is like um we're talking like uh uh are we doing a built-in fire pit? Are we doing like something that can be moved to then create um you know a multifunctional space? So a lot of times, like when people want a built-in fire pit, but that's really not even that important to them, you know, kind of letting them think about like, hey, if you build, like it's not, you know, once you build it in here, it's a solid thing that stays. Um, you know, hearing what you're you know, what you've been saying, and we're kind of trying to maximize square footages, uh, you know, then that's that's where we have like, hey, maybe a like a built-in fire pit isn't the right fit. Maybe it's like a more removable one that you can then make that space multifunctional. Um that's that's a big one uh for me, is that fire pit space if they have one.

SPEAKER_01 30:56

Now here's a part that flipped a switch in my brain. Trey took the exact same backyard, the same pool, the same square footage, and created two completely different outdoor living spaces to compare.

SPEAKER_02 31:10

You're gonna want to stick around and watch this because it's going to flip a switch and you're thinking too. Okay, all right. So why don't you bring up the the next project and let's let's look at some of those um those spaces or zones and sure talk us through why, you know, why you placed them where you did, and um maybe swap some options out. That was really cool how you could just easily move those Shays Lounge chairs in that last uh example.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

Yeah, yeah. All right, cool. This is gonna be more of what I call like a Zen um woodland kind of escape area because there's some natural woods that we're kind of putting in, you know, uh they're actually clearing some land to get it in there, and so it's like surrounded on a few sides by um, you know, uh beautiful, you know, uh woods that we have around Virginia. So um kind of tucking it in, but then kind of bringing some of that back in to the pool area. Um, not a lot of times people, you know, they talk about the sun and all that matters, but again, sometimes it's like um the sun is a could be a bad thing for someone who's trying to um, you know, not be in that uh really hot blazing sun, and they're not really interested in tanning and things like that. So again, kind of knowing that person and what they're after um is is critical. So uh, but this one that we're gonna this is gonna be the one where it just broke it. There's a lot of just clear defined areas for things. So the first one is like this dining um area, and the reason this dining area is is where it is, is because this is the entrance area um right in through here, and behind me is an area that uh they already do cooking, and there's like a little deck over there, and the house is behind us to the right, um, kind of over over here. Um, so uh this was a natural area where they still will likely use this thing a lot, even when the pool's not in use. And so, because of that, that's the first thing that we're gonna arrive at, you know, when you open the pool gate, if you will, but it technically is still separated from say the pool environment, which is going to be you know on the other side, and you'll see you've got um this is kind of a secondary entry point to this pool because it's only four feet wide, where the main, you know, where we would see most people going when they're going to the pool is going to be open that gate, straight shot, you know, path of least resistance. Um, so you've got a six foot wide opening here, and then boom, you you know, you're at this pool area. And the reason I'm doing I put the pool in sandstone because I think sandstone is a very underrated peanut butter pool that I think that we should see more of. Um, but in any case, um, you know, now we've separated these spaces. Uh, you've got this beautiful R32 pool. Um you the the house is off to the right. We're tucking it into the woods. So I'm bringing some of those big um, you know, um shade trees and things like that because sun really isn't something that's important to these people. They want kind of a woodland escape uh type of feel. And so then, you know, we've got that, you know, path of least resistance. You can have a straight shot to the Chase Loungers and then get a view out, you know, into the yard and into you know nature. Um, so um, so that, and then we've got this area over here, you'll see an a fire pit, but it's not, you know, it's not a built-in, you know, fire pit. This is gonna be one that is that can be portable.

SPEAKER_02 34:45

Yeah, yeah, it's portable.

SPEAKER_00 34:46

Because maybe they don't want a fire that day, and maybe maybe there's gonna be a dining room table here for you know for a grandkid's birthday, or you know, who who knows? There's all kinds of again, I can move things around. Um, you know, how much how much space do you have?

SPEAKER_02 35:00

Yeah, how much space do you have there allocated for that sitting area with the fire pit?

SPEAKER_00 35:05

Yeah, uh 15 uh by 14. A lot of times with fire pit areas, like a 15-foot diameter, 15 to 16-ish is uh is a good kind of a good thing to um that I aim for, uh, unless there's something like you could go a little smaller, but uh really only if there's like a seating wall or something that can take the place of a physical chair. Um so you'll see that's that's that. You'll see again 10 is a very common chase lounge uh uh depth. You'll see, and let me I'll just hide the plants just to make it a little easier to for people to see.

SPEAKER_02 35:40

This bird's eye view is very helpful to kind of see what's happening here.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

Yeah, and I can uh I don't know if it would construction mark up, yeah. Maybe a little something like that. Um, like again, areas uh you know, primary, you'll see six feet here, here, uh over here, because these again, these are areas people are coming and going each way, uh a lot of traffic areas. Um, but then again, purposely narrow that down to four on those areas where again they just want to be able to get around the pool, but it's not necessarily a place you're hanging out, and then like little tucked away, like secondary alternate paths to the dining, you know. So giving that full just ability to move around this space uh very easily. In this corner, uh again, uh there'd be a gate that kind of goes out to the the you know, natural woods and a path out that way, so kind of like a little hidden gate over here that would go out. But um, yeah, this is kind of all these different things I'm I'm thinking, uh thinking about.

SPEAKER_02 36:43

And how many square feet is this um entire patio?

SPEAKER_00 36:46

This is about um 1080, so a little under eleven hundred square feet.

SPEAKER_02 36:52

Okay. And again, you so how often do you uh design spaces where all of the patio is concentrated towards one end or or one one side of the pool? The last the last one we looked at um had the same thing. You put very little bit, very little concrete around one side and then the deep end, and really the same thing here, except you're you've got most of it concentrated around the shallow end. So it's all hanging around three sides, but more towards the shallow end of the pool. Is that a very common thing you do?

SPEAKER_00 37:26

Um, I don't think anything's. I mean, I I'll I do all kinds of things, and sometimes I don't even know why I'm doing them until I start to like you know, really internally think about those things. But I just uh it to me it just comes second nature, like bing, I gotta have more space for this. And um, you know, again, those dot connecting where I'm just like, uh uh okay, I got it. Like I, you know, I think I got something planned. But at the same time, yeah, look at look at this. This is one, but uh one here, this is that same one. This is the same square footage. And so that's one thing that I think would be cool to kind of talk about is like this is a very common, you know, thing. This is six feet on two sides, twelve feet, and ten feet, and they're within like ten square foot foot of each other, if not like closer than that, in terms of total square footage.

SPEAKER_02 38:14

Um that's crazy how how the so this is it's the exact same pool, so it's an R32, uh, which is um 15 feet wide, 32 feet long, and um uh basically 1100 square feet for both of them. And holy smokes, like the the seasonality, the zones feel completely different in both of those.

SPEAKER_00 38:39

Yeah, I mean same exact place. Um and so look, let's so let's just again let's back up really quick. So, okay, again option one, um, you know, defined, and then let's fly like a bird over this way. Um same same space, um same backyard. The pool has not moved at all. Okay, the pool is in the exact same place. Um that arrival is a little different, but um, and again, still very nice. It's just I don't, you know, what's this may be perfect for one person, where the other one may be like the best, like the most perfect like plan for for them. And so they're just showing you like how much we can like use that same square footage, and this doesn't take a whole lot of thought, it doesn't mean it's not uh a perfect plan for that particular person, but you know, six, six, twelve, ten, boom, that's very easy. That's uh a clear, easy way to you know, to show something, and this is probably more common of like what you see uh in terms of just like um quick uh patio layouts for functional spaces for people is like showing showing these different things, but uh you know, for me looking at this, um to me that these two six-foot areas are a lot of wasted square footage. Um, and because uh it's it's plenty wide to walk around back and forth, but this isn't really the primary area that people are hanging out in. It's it's over over there. Those are the two areas that people are hanging out in. So these areas, yeah, they may get um wider areas. And again, this this is maybe perfect for like someone with a lot of children, a lot of friends that are coming over, they're running around, they're um jumping on boogie boards and all. I mean, you can't boys are flying all over the place. Three boys I don't, you know, they're acting crazy. And so like this may be like the perfect thing, you know, a lot of chase lounge area, big, wide open. Um just a different thing. Um but for me, these two areas, like I would maybe shrink them down a little bit and either save square footage or like use that for uh for something else. Like so maybe instead of 12 feet, six feet, six feet, and ten feet, maybe I take take these and make them five, because you can kind of still do the same thing with five as you can with six, and then maybe that maybe that uh gives me enough square footage to give me twelve on uh you know on this instead of ten. So you have twelve, twelve, five, and five instead of ten, six, six, and twelve, like different little easy things like that. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:26

Well, now looking at this, even this the six foot side of uh concrete right there on the right. Um, I mean you can still fit some chairs. You don't you can't fit Shay's lounge chairs there. Right. But yeah, you could fit some chairs over here.

SPEAKER_00 41:39

Yep, you certainly could, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:41

Drag some over. Let's see what that looks like.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

Um that's pretty comfortable. Yeah, for sure. It's just all about how really like understanding yourself and like how do you want the space to work um is gonna really determine how do we how do we allocate that square footage and the most you know the best bang for your buck in terms of like every square foot is is uh you know a functional piece of the pie.

SPEAKER_01 42:11

Yeah. All right, you're inspired, you're sold, you've got pen and paper in hand, and you're ready to sketch. But before you begin, let's give you a quick cheat sheet so you know how much space you actually need for the gathering areas or zones you want to include in your project.

SPEAKER_02 42:36

So let's talk about let's talk about some different um uh different furniture configurations and like minimum square footage. You touched on that um a few minutes ago. You were talking about Shay's lounge chairs needing about 10 feet for them. Um so let's just talk like uh a conversation area for three to six people. How many square foot do you need?

SPEAKER_00 42:58

Three to six people?

SPEAKER_02 43:00

Um guys, I was like, no fire pit, just no fire pit, just an area for people to sit in some furniture comfortably and chat.

SPEAKER_00 43:07

Uh 10, you know, uh a smallest, a ten by ten, maybe, you know, maybe uh twelve by twelve, something like that, you know, 100 to 200 square feet.

SPEAKER_02 43:17

How about uh how about a dining area for say six to eight people?

SPEAKER_00 43:22

A dining area, yeah. I mean, square foot wise, let's see. Let me think about that. Um again, a lot of times it's gonna depend on the furniture, right? So like how much area are you using? But I would say slightly more than more than that, because what I'm thinking about is like um not only sitting and dining, but also like backing up, you know, to get out of the chair and and and pivot.

SPEAKER_02 43:48

Um I had in my notes here twelve by twelve would be good for six to eight people for a dining space. Would you agree with that?

SPEAKER_00 43:56

Yeah, probably a more like a round, a round one. Um Slightly bigger for like more of like a larger um you know eight eight person you know like stretched out type of table. Yeah. But um yeah, 12 by 12. I was gonna think, you know, I was gonna think like 10 by 14 or or um you know 12 by 12, um even even a little bit bigger potentially.

SPEAKER_02 44:20

Okay. Uh what about hot tubs? How how much space hot tubs, and I'm talking this, you know, the standalone, uh the jacuzzi type style. How much space do you, you know, or should you have around them? Because you're you're typically getting in and out of one spot where the steps are, right? To get step up and get into it. Um, but do you need to have space around that? I'd imagine you need to access the pump and the filter system on one side. But what what are your recommendations there? Because we see a lot of in-ground pools get put in. Uh, maybe they had a hot tub or they want to add a hot tub to their to their pool space. Um so what's space recommendation there for that zone?

SPEAKER_00 45:03

Yeah, well, a hot tub is, I mean, the hot tub in my home is like a seven by seven. I think it's like a six or seven seat or so. Normally seven to eight feet uh square is kind of a typical hot tub. So, you know, um, you know, a hundred square feet or less for the actual hot tub and then uh enough space to get in. A lot of times the panel is going to be on the front side that you actually get into, like where the buttons and the controls are. Um so yeah, I mean, it just to set it there, um, you know, I would say, you know, not more than 100 square feet. I don't, I don't think. Um and again, it depends on what's going on around it. But my my personally in my home, uh two sides are completely covered by a hedge. So there's enough for the hot tub to sit on. I've got a little space to kind of get around if I need to, you know, um, you know, get to something, but um, it's kind of tucked away. And a lot of our customers like to have a they want the value and the all the function of like a hot tub unit, like we're talking about, versus maybe one of our in-ground spas, um, just because there's so much that those hot tubs can do and and just hit the easy button. But they don't, the biggest thing that they are trying to achieve is like they don't like the way that it just is sitting out in the open. Um, and so kind of tucking those into places and making them look integrated and things like that are all stuff that you know I've I run across a lot.

SPEAKER_02 46:23

Um you have an example you could show us?

SPEAKER_00 46:25

I think you had a hot tub in the design from that last episode. Um Yeah, that one has they talk about that, the Levin project we did years ago. Um that's on uh there's a there's a cool video on that that shows that shows that. Um I think there's a good video, and and we've kind of tucked it into the building and and uh put uh the some of the walls are kind of wrapping around it, but then the side that you need to access has got some plants, so again, kind of visually blocking it out, uh and kind of integrating it into the space, but it's not like look at me, I'm a hot tub just sitting right out in the middle of of the area here, type of thing.

SPEAKER_02 47:01

So right, right. What about uh what about a grill? Um, how much space do you need for, you know, let's say a 36-inch grill?

SPEAKER_00 47:10

Yeah, I mean, maybe like a um gosh, maybe six by eight, maybe something like that, 50 square feet. Um not a huge area for something like that.

SPEAKER_02 47:23

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:24

What do you what do the notes say?

SPEAKER_02 47:26

Uh six by six minimum. Uh so yeah, you were you're in the ballpark, you're being a little generous. Yeah. Um and I mean nobody likes a tiny little kitchen. Uh, how many outdoor kitchens do you do you you know incorporate into your designs? Is that a popular request?

SPEAKER_00 47:43

Yeah, I mean they're they're awesome. I mean, outdoor kitchens are amazing, but I mean they're not for for everyone. And you can again you can make it very simple, or you can make it like better than the kitchen inside of your house. Um so yeah, it's kind of what what you want out of that kitchen. Um roof under roof, is it just out in the open?

SPEAKER_02 48:02

Um Is there um is there a recommendation like minimum size for a kitchen? Um, that you would say, like if you're gonna do an outdoor kitchen, what what's the minimum you would recommend? Space and just you know, what what features should you not skip on?

SPEAKER_00 48:19

Um yeah, that was gonna be my more point to drive home. Like I would say like the minimum things that I'm generally including in a kitchen, obviously the grill. Um, and then usually at a minimum, I like to have uh a trash can uh pull-out drawer, just so there's not like uh, you know, flies and all that stuff and all that. And I and when I can, I like to incorporate a a mini fridge. So uh whether you're cooking and you need to like put the steaks or something in there to chill before you're you know cooking it or beverages or condiments, things like that. And then if you can fit enough space for like at least one small storage drawer to fit utensils and things like that. So those are kind of like the four um the four kind of components. Now, how they're configured in an L, a straight line, is it you know, all that can be decided, but those are kind of the main the main kind of things that I'm I'm thinking about for a kitchen.

SPEAKER_01 49:12

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:13

That's pretty helpful.

SPEAKER_01 49:16

Now, what happens if your dream design and your budget aren't quite shaking hands yet? Trey offers some good tips on how you can phase or stage your project to achieve what you want in the long run.

SPEAKER_02 49:35

Uh so let's let's talk about uh building building things out in phases, right? Because we we talked about that last time. It's a way to uh in the in the last episode with you, it's a way if if if what your full design doesn't fit within the budget you have now, you can certainly go up to a point, you can add on to that patio later. Um maybe you can pull up an example here and just talk through how you might recommend phasing uh different zones into a project later.

SPEAKER_00 50:04

Yeah, do you want to pull up the one I that I just had here? Um we'll pull up this one. This is a new one.

SPEAKER_02 50:16

And how often how often do you run into folks? You you create a design that is the ultimate goal, um, but it needs to be designed so that it can be phased over time. How often do you work with homeowners on that?

SPEAKER_00 50:30

Um a lot. Um you know it's it's definitely normal um to phase things and to um you know to think and then a lot of times it's the design though is what's going to the design itself is what is going to help dictate uh the potential for that. Because sometimes like you can't have one without the other or else you can't do the thing that you want it to do. But um, if you know it going into it, then I can try to actively uh design it in a way that it can be like kind of um uh zone stage specific. Um let me see. Um let me just pull something up here. I'll just keep the same one. Sand one we had just to make it easy. Um and really this one is gonna just go down to like you know, do we just hold off on that whole square footage where the dining area is? Do we um uh remove that whole fire pit section that was off on that back side and and um you do something you know different, you know, there in the future? Do we just stick to that uh you know, four feet on three sides and ten feet on that deep end and then just expand the other the other parts?

SPEAKER_02 51:47

Um maybe share your screen again with like a you know top-down view so we can just re refresh our memories here of what that space looks like.

SPEAKER_00 52:06

Uh yeah. So um in this one, this is like that uh the one that's broken, broken up. So like the the simple one is like say we just did just kept it four feet, I mean at a minimum, just four feet on all four sides, and then you um maybe design the concrete to have a structured uh joint, uh like the the relief joint where the the concrete will eventually crack, but like that maybe you incorporate even that into like how you're breaking breaking it down into zones, and then when you do, you just uh you know, maybe we're thinking in you know, phases of like four-foot increments, and that way if you are really like some people are very particular about the way it looks and making sure it blends and the lines line up and and all of that, and so like that's an easy one. Um, like I was saying before, like you cut just this entire this entire section out of it. Um, and still still have the pool and still know, hey, like next year I'm gonna add this and and um you know and make it look look seamless. And and a lot of times it maybe maybe it depends on the material because concrete is a little less forgiving in a sense of like um phasing things out a little bit just because you can generally tell, like, oh, that's like a little bit lighter color, or you know, there's a slightly different thing.

SPEAKER_02 53:27

Yeah, matching the material. Matching the colors is is tough. But there are this is where I'll attempt to put my design hat on. I mean, there are ways to sort of break that up visually. So you could mitigate the risk of not matching colors, maybe with um, you know, with a line of um you know, pavers, right? Just visually, it could it would break it up just enough to uh define the separate space and keep the color, the different pores separate from each other.

SPEAKER_00 53:56

Yeah, like we could divine like this, these connector pieces can be like a like a defined like cobblestone or you know, something that just kind of makes it look intentional while breaking up those those different areas. That's definitely a great a great way to do it.

SPEAKER_02 54:11

You could also come back and and actually do pavers in those added spaces, um, which might be once the pool is built, it might actually uh be more economical than trying to figure out how to get concrete back there. Um you know, because you're you know, you're you're working with a more expensive product, but in a smaller square footage, right? So you're it's probably more manageable at that point and visually would add another another element to your project.

SPEAKER_00 54:42

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And then and we can, you know, when I'm gonna do that. Coming for your job, Trey. We can do that real. I mean, we can play with those things real time, which is always the like that's I mean, at the end of the day, like when I'm talking to people, like I'm trying to like understand you, um, and also the budget and the all the things. Right. Um, but it's like a dance. It's like you know, it's like maybe they were a little over budget, maybe we haven't hit on like maybe I misinterpreted what you've what I thought was the most important thing to you, and like that's what the fun part about like you know, collaborating and getting people's feedback and um and you know providing value.

SPEAKER_02 55:23

Yeah, just for kicks, what it if if that added uh fire pit area, um if that was you know put in after the fact and the dining area and both of those were done with pavers after the fact, what would that look like? And about how many square feet is that if we if those two spaces were um phased into the project.

SPEAKER_00 55:47

Yeah, so if I do this, what I'm doing is just outlining yeah, the space. Boom. I'll do that. And sometimes if I don't want to delete the whole thing, I'll actually just make this an inch higher. That way when I go into like materials, it's actually it's not like on the same plane and the like the graphics are going crazy. Um so let's see. We'll add the plants in, boom, you got the space. Now I can go into the materials selection and uh say we want to do um squadra by Techoblock. And we double click it and we put it in there, and then now we've got you know, maybe they want a real, you know, a much different color, like a terracotta brick or something, you know, and then I can kind of show them uh and break that down um into, you know, a lot of I mean this is just me doing it quickly on the fly, but I can quickly do that. I can quickly get in here and um sorry, um get in here and now I'm gonna take that. I'm gonna I'm gonna move it.

SPEAKER_02 56:59

Um one this is what it's fun to watch you work on the fly like this. Um, but it also gives a good represent a visual uh representation for these different spaces if if you were to uh uh phase them in. And how many square feet is that dining area?

SPEAKER_00 57:16

Uh if we're technical, it's 315.46, but like that's about 315 square feet. So then you know, okay, that's you know, I can deduct that, or you know, at least gives you the option to kind of know where each section is, you know, what what needs to be cut or what needs to be expanded on. Um and you can do the same thing for you know for the fire pit area. And you can see the plans can make things get a little bit, you know, hard to read, um, you know, from a 2D perspective. Um, but uh but yeah, we can do that with all these different different areas and change materials and yeah and all that good stuff. Um yeah, we can quickly just you know show you what it looks like somewhere else, give you the square footage based on based on those uh those things, and then you know, show real-time material colors and yeah, all that good stuff.

SPEAKER_02 58:05

So that's super cool, man. That's super cool. Um so it is possible to you know phase phase things in if thoughtfully done. Um and use you know, creative use of different materials. You don't you're not gonna you don't have to blow the budget out in order to pull this off in round one. Um and again, even in round two, you might end up with a slightly upgraded look from what you originally thought was gonna be there. And um and and and make it just make everything, make the space yours uh when it's ultimately complete. What um what what closing thoughts do you have have for folks? What recommendations do you have? Just call me and look.

SPEAKER_00 58:45

Um I don't I mean I don't um uh closing thoughts, gosh. Um, yeah, I mean, I just think it's important to know yourself as uh like what you're trying to get out of the out of the project because as you see in these examples, like the possibilities are virtually endless. So um kind of understanding what how much space you need around the pool. Uh, you know, again, averages are great, but uh like I said at the beginning, what is uh perfect for one isn't perfect for the other. You could do right 200 square feet, and it's like a very elegant pool in the middle of a meadow that looks amazing, and um, you know, it's intentionally made that way. Um, but you know, that person probably doesn't have a lot of kids running around and all that stuff. So, like again, just uh understanding you and how you plan to use that space and um and then let me figure out the rest of it.

SPEAKER_02 59:39

Yeah. Uh if you haven't listened to the first episode with Trey, uh make sure you go do that. There's some great tips in there about how to approach the design of your outdoor space, how to work with the project designer to make sure you get what you're looking for, and then come back and listen to this one again. And um, I think you're providing some great tips and thoughtful insights on um designing the spaces for the furniture or the different gathering spaces or uses that you want to have for the different zones. So, Trey, I appreciate it, man. This has been great. I've got more ideas, I've got more topics, uh, more questions. I mean, just off the top of my head, I would love to pick your brain about how to select plants, where to place plants, uh, because trees shed leaves, and uh that's maintenance on a pool. Uh some plants work in some places, they don't in others. Um, I would also love to do an episode about how to hide a pump and filter system. And um so I imagine there's a lot of creativity that um you utilize to to help homeowners accomplish accomplish that as well. So we're definitely going to have you back. Appreciate your time, buddy.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:49

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:52

We thank Trey for coming back out to the show and sharing his time and his talents with everyone again. If today's show inspired you to think a little bit differently about your project or helped you move to the next step in your project planning, well, that's what it was designed to do.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:07

And regardless of where you are in that process, you likely have more questions that need answers. So I encourage you to head on over to the website Riverpoolsandspas.com and check out anything from the hundreds of articles we have, guides, and even self-guided tools like the pricing estimator or the pool type selector.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:26

There are a number of things out there that can help you bring your project to life. I'm Christian with River Pools. You have been listening or watching the Pool Guides Podcast. We'll see you in a future episode.