What a Pool Actually Costs to Own Over 10 Years

Everybody asks what a pool costs to build. Almost nobody asks what it costs to own. This episode fixes that.

Cristian sits down with Tyler Hermon of Pools of Fun in Indianapolis, who has spent 18 years in the industry assisting with pool sales, five retail stores, and a full maintenance division. That combination is rare, and it is exactly why he can walk you through the real ten-year picture on fiberglass, vinyl liner, and concrete pools without flinching.

You will hear where the money actually goes: the liner replacement that tends to show up around year ten, the concrete resurface that costs roughly double, and the pumps, heaters, and salt cells you will swap whether you planned for them or not. Tyler is honest about insurance too, including why a diving board or slide can quietly cost you coverage, and how an automatic cover pays you back on chemicals, heat, and peace of mind.

Then comes the part you cannot put on a spreadsheet. In roughly a thousand pools sold, Tyler cannot name one family who said it was not worth it. As he puts it, the maintenance people fear and the maintenance they actually deal with are rarely the same thing.

A few things that come up along the way:
 • Which pool type is cheapest to own over a decade, and why
 • The difference between paying up front and paying later
 • What really drives insurance and property tax changes on a pool
 • When doing your own maintenance saves money, and when it just costs you a Saturday
 • Why "we will wait until the kids are older" is the regret Tyler hears most

If you are weighing a pool and trying to picture life ten years in, this is the conversation to have first.

Planning your own backyard? Head to riverpoolsandspas.com for a pricing estimator, decision-making tools, and hundreds of articles built to help you decide with confidence.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Very seldomly is that part of a regular conversation or questions from homeowners of what does 10 years down the road look like? What does annual expenses look like? The perceived maintenance and the actual maintenance are sometimes not in alignment. I had another lady who told me uh, you know, I ran into her over on the east side of Indy one time and gas station, and she said, Tyler, I want to talk to you about my pool. There's something you didn't prepare me for, and I've spent a lot of money on this. And, you know, I try to pride myself on doing a beautiful job and being as thorough as I can. And I'm taken back, and I'm I'm I'm so sorry what happened. And she said, You did not prepare me for the cost of peanut butter and jellies and beef and all these things I was gonna have to have for all these kids who want to come to my house now.

SPEAKER_02 0:51

What's up, guys? Christian here with River Pools. Welcome to the Pool Guides Podcast, a show that helps you gather all the information you might need to help you make a well-informed decision about having a pool installed in your backyard. In this particular episode, we're not talking about the cost of buying a pool. We're not talking about the cost of installing the pool. Instead, we're talking about the cost of owning the pool. I wanted to find a guide who doesn't just work in sales, doesn't just work in maintenance, but who has seen all aspects of the industry when it comes to pool ownership. Somebody who can help us understand what it might cost to own a pool over a 10-year period of time. Meet today's guide, Tyler Herman. Tyler Herman. Welcome to the show, my friend. I appreciate you spending some time jumping on as the pool guides podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

Excited to be here and uh appreciate the the the invite and the opportunity to be part of it. Absolutely. Eighteen years in the industry, is that right? It is, yeah, 18 years uh this year and been between hot tubs and pools and the retail team and a little bit of everything, but uh yeah, love every bit of it.

SPEAKER_02 2:02

All right, so just real quick, what what got you into the industry and then more importantly, what's kept you here for for that long? Uh definitely a career at this point. And uh you and I have had many conversations over the years. Um I think we both love it for similar reasons, but just how'd you get in and and what keeps you here?

SPEAKER_01 2:21

Yeah, yeah. So I I actually started at Pool of the Fun uh in one of our retail stores. They hired me to launch a hot tub business uh for them. So back 18 years ago, I came to the company, I'd always known of the company, had friends who had worked in the retail stores and um family friends that that worked there in sales and some of the management. So I'd always been aware of the company, knew of its reputation, uh, never really worked summer jobs or anything there, but uh love hot tubs, so that was an opportunity for me to really start a sales career there uh doing that. We launched uh that through one of our retail stores. We sold, I think, um, 48, 50 spas that first year. Uh so great success there. Did that with uh show floor planning them in one of our stores, but also selling them alongside of some of our new pools. Uh, but really enjoyed that and was successful at it. And from there I moved into being a new pool sales rep. And I've done that ever since. Uh managed some of our weekly pool care routes and different things like that. But really, heart and soul's been in the marketing and the new pool side of things. And what I love about it is the same thing that everybody always says. It's it's I'm not at a desk. Uh, every day is different. I'm dealing with a lot of the same things over and over again. But just to be able to help a family create something like this in their backyard is so rewarding. Um, I didn't really even figure out what I did until I actually put one in at my own house. And then I realized what actually we were creating for families, and it kind of changed everything that I did about it. But um I still get chills when I talk about my kids' first swim, and I love creating that for other families.

SPEAKER_02 3:50

Good stuff. Good stuff. Uh I I I feel I feel the same things, man. It's just a super fun industry to be in and to see the joy that people get out of the products that we sell and get installed in their backyards. Man, there's there's nothing like it. Um so pools of fun. You guys are based out of uh Indianapolis and uh out there in the Midwest. You guys have your hands in much of the industry still doing hot tub sales.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 4:19

Yep. Uh you do fiberglass and vinyl liner sales and installation, not concrete. Uh and you also have a maintenance department, right?

SPEAKER_01 4:27

Yeah, we've got a maintenance department where we uh take care of uh I think close to 150, 180 pools uh running routes, anywhere between one to two stops a week for those customers. Um we also have um five different retail locations. So all around central Indiana or central Indianapolis area, uh surrounding communities, we have uh we call them customer care centers, but parts, accessories, chemicals. Uh this year we launched our own uh private label chemical line as well. So uh we've got our hand just about in every aspect of it renovations, remodeling, everything. Well, we um we like to say we cover everything from the backyard to the fence.

SPEAKER_02 5:03

So that's the perspective Tyler brings to today's episode. The company he works for, pools of fun, sells fiberglass, they sell vinyl, and they maintain all three types of pools fiberglass, vinyl, and concrete. So he's well versed in today's topic. But I wanted to start the show off by asking him one true question about planning for having a pool installed. It's easy to focus on the cost of the pool, but do people actually inquire about the cost of owning one? Well, this actually tees up the conversation today perfectly because um I represent the manufacturer, fiber, you know, river pools, fiberglass manufacturing. So I'm I'm excited to see pools get sold and installed, uh, and people wrapping their heads around that number is often you know that that's the start of the whole adventure, right? I need to understand what this costs to put in the ground. But how often do people also go through that process thinking about the 10 years after it's installed? So you're you being in sales and working for a company that has, you know, a maintenance division, how often do people plan for that number?

SPEAKER_01 6:17

Uh very seldomly, right? I mean, I I think there's also there's obviously a perceived maintenance that comes with this, perceived cost of ownership. Um, but I I would say you're uh well-educated, the customers tend to ask some questions about what would annual expenses look like. But very seldomly is that part of a regular conversation uh or questions from homeowners of what does 10 years down the road look like, what does annual expenses look like? Uh and that's a real thing to consider. So kudos for you guys for you know covering a topic like that.

SPEAKER_02 6:50

Yeah, I I think it's important. Uh it's not only what does it take to put it in the ground, but what is it going to take for you to actually own this thing over you know, over the long haul? And for the sake of today, we'll we'll talk, we'll talk a 10-year period. How often do you guys end up in these conversations? If the homeowner doesn't bring it up, do you do you guys make a point to have this conversation with it? And I guess more importantly, when they become educated, does that begin to sway their opinion on what type of pool they should buy?

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Uh I I mean, I think so. I would say probably not. Uh I always kind of draw the equation of, you know, if you go to the Hummer dealership, they don't question you or remind you the gas mileage that the Hummer's gonna get before uh telling you that they want it, right? So we always kind of take that approach of we're not certainly gonna mislead, deceive, or avoid the subject. Uh we we we kind of approach it that everybody has a perceived understanding of it, but we will answer it head on when it comes up. Um and then yes, I mean I think obviously there are certain pools that are gonna be more efficient to own and operate long term. Like you mentioned in the opener, I mean, we do vinyl liner pools and we do fiberglass pools. We do not build, we're in the Midwest, Friesenthal, not a great gunite market. Uh there are people who build it. It's not something that we typically build or or we will take care of, but we don't do any rehab maintenance or anything for those. So uh we strictly stay with that liner fiberglass product line and uh talk about what life looks like with those.

SPEAKER_02 8:22

Yeah. And do you do you see people uh in the sales process uh their decision being swayed by that 10-year, you know, maintenance costs as they become educated, either through you guys or on their own or yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:36

I mean, I think with AI and everybody really uh um embracing that and learning from that, people are getting a lot of information from that. Um but yeah, I mean we certainly have questions of what does a five-year, 10-year period look like on cost of ownership. And for us, talking about liner versus fiberglass, there's really chemicals and equipment maintenance and things may slightly be different, but but nothing of significance. So when we're really comparing what does a 10-year cost of ownership look like on the two types of pools that we offer, it really just comes down to upfront costs versus deferred costs, right? So talking about the liner change, the time frame that that's going to happen, what leads to that happening, and what do those expenses look like is something that we would regularly conversate about when people are comparing and contrasting the type of pool that they may want.

SPEAKER_02 9:25

So that 10-year cost of ownership is very real, yet so many people walk right past it when they're planning to have a pool installed in their backyard. If that's where you are, let's now take a look from Tyler's perspective and 18 years of experience in the industry, which pool type is the most affordable over that 10-year period. So let's let's jump now into let's talk about the 10-year the 10-year costs. Um, and we'll start with fiberglass. This is traditionally thought of as having the lowest cost over 10 years. True or untrue?

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Yeah, no, I I mean I think that's that's absolutely factual. That would be things that we would share with our homeowners as well. Uh, you know, the line that I typically talk about is if you're willing to spend a little bit more money up front to offset those um additional ongoing long-term expenses, a fiberglass pool is a great fit for something like that.

SPEAKER_02 10:21

Fantastic. So, what what would you say um the average homeowner should prepare for spending over a 10-year period with a fiberglass pool?

SPEAKER_01 10:31

Yeah, I mean, I think really you're looking at your chemical chemical expenses, your utility expenses. Um that's really what you're looking at, right? I mean, in a 10-year period, there's nothing that you're gonna do to that shell of the pool as long as you're disclaimer, you're taking care of it within the measures of of what you're supposed to be doing, right? Um we're in the Midwest, so a lot of the things that we do is gonna be different than a Texas or a Florida or a California. What I mean by that is we're a seasonal location, right? So somebody who's using their pool 300, 300 plus days a year, we're using our pools 100 to 140 days, maybe a little bit more a year. Uh so life of pumps, life of heaters, if you even have a heater or not, things like that are going to be dramatically different. Uh, and then obviously in that liner, that 10-year period is really where we start to see people starting to investigate the cost of that replacement liner. Um what we tell people here locally in that 10 to 12 year, that liner is typically not at a point of failure, but it's starting to show chemical damage, UV damage, things like that, and that can be anywhere from a seven to ten or eleven thousand dollar expense. So that's the single largest piece. In that 10-year period, probably a pump, uh, probably a heater. Pumps two to three thousand dollars, heater five to six thousand dollars. Um, can you set your watch to know that that's absolutely gonna happen in ten years? No. Um, it all comes back to how well you're gonna take care of things, whether you're a DIYer, which we'll talk about, or whether you're using a professional to take care of it.

SPEAKER_02 12:00

Yeah, yeah. So uh so fiberglass, vinyl, aside from the liner itself, they're they're gonna be about equal in in maintenance. Um the liner cost has seems like it's gone up. Certainly, you know, the replacement cost for that has has gone up. And just quickly walk through, it's not just the liner. What what are all of the expenses that go into a liner replacement?

SPEAKER_01 12:22

Yeah, so when we do a liner replacement job, we're pumping down uh the existing pool. Uh, then we're gonna dispose of, haul off uh the existing liner. We're gonna spend up to an hour um trialing or refinishing the floor of the pool. Typically in a 10-year period, if we're 10 to 12 years in doing that, walls don't need a whole lot of work. They still look pretty good, but floor may need a little bit of repair. So up to an hour's worth of repairs on the floor, just uh work out any cracks or aggregate that it might have come to the surface, make that a nice clean install. That's liner back in, and then that's filling the pool completely back up. That's a morning job. Uh, I mean, four to six hours we can take you from your existing pool to having a brand new liner filled back up with water.

SPEAKER_02 13:03

Okay. And that's pr pretty common around the country, right? Standard, standard process. Um, and your costs again are coming from uh from the Midwest. They may be higher or lower, depending on where you are in the country. There's nothing set everywhere. Yep. Um so let's talk about 10-year ownership costs for concrete pools. And you have the authority to speak on this. You don't build concrete pools, you don't renovate concrete pools, but you guys maintain concrete pools. So let's let's talk through some of those expenses over a 10-year period.

SPEAKER_01 13:33

Yeah, um, I mean, here when we talk about a liner change being the price range that we discussed, uh, if you're looking to replaster or re-pebble a pool locally, that conversation starting at $20 plus thousand dollars to do that. So you're double the cost of a liner um change. You're not even thinking about that, obviously, with the fiberglass pool, anything like that. But uh you're gonna use more chemicals, you're gonna spend more of your own time cleaning um the gunite pool just because of the porous surface, um all the additional things that go into that. But the biggest kicker on that, right? Pumps, filters, heaters is gonna be about the same on the liner pool versus the fiberglass pool, but that finish is gonna be the biggest kicker. There's a lot of companies locally, well, I say a lot, a handful of companies locally who do a good job building them, uh, but very few people want to refinish and and rehab them. So uh you you may you may want to get it done this year, but you may be on a two-year wait period and you're gonna be twenty plus thousand dollars to have that work done.

SPEAKER_02 14:28

Trying to find a company who will do the work. Yeah. Right. Yep. So um component-wise, very similar. Uh the the the plaster finish itself is a major expense. Let's talk about time investment. Um, it is more on a concrete pool. How much more? How much more chemicals, or how many more chemicals do you know, would you advise somebody to plan for for you know for a concrete pool?

SPEAKER_01 14:53

Yeah, uh so the the we tell people in our retail stores that's gonna be 15 to 20 percent more on chemicals. The the methodology behind that is those surfaces are rough, it gives algae and things like that more of a surface to adhere to and grow on when you're looking at the smooth surface of the gel coat or of the liner, they can certainly still grow in that, but it's harder for them to adhere to anything in that pool. So uh that's probably the high-end measurement, but I would say that's typically what we see through our retail stores of people who have gunite pools are spending double digit more in a percentage versus liner and fiberglass customers.

SPEAKER_02 15:30

Yeah. So 15% more is what you guys advise. That's a great, that's a great you know, number to have in your back pocket as you're doing your research, thinking about what type of pool you may want, or understanding what your time or or personal investment is gonna be after the fact. And I can attest to to the idea that brushing algae off a concrete pool is not always an easy feat. Uh I've worked I've worked at a lot of outdoor pools in my younger days. And man, when an algae bloom happens, it's not if, when, uh you're you're gonna work hard to get that to get that out of there. And the same on a fiberglass pool or vinyl, it does, it just pops right off, and now your chemicals and filter system just pick it up and and help you finish the job off. Uh, but you can do a lot of brushing on a concrete pool when that algae bloom happens, and it will for sure.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

Yeah, and I think you know you mentioned it, right? But it's it it's just a brushing, um, knocking it off of the liner and the fiberglass, but it's it's a lot more of a rigorous process to get that off of the plaster finish or of the pebble finish. I mean, if you don't get it completely off, but you think you did, it comes right back. Yeah, it's got something to really hold on to. So definitely the the the vinyl and the fiberglass significantly outperform in that that category for sure.

SPEAKER_02 16:44

So fiberglass and vinyl liner pools are pretty close for ownership cost over a 10-year period, except for the potential to have to replace that liner. That's when there's a bit of separation and a clear winner rises to the top. Of course, concrete will always be more expensive to own and maintain over that period of time, and if you have to resurface it in that 10-year period, that puts the cost in a whole nother category. But what about all the other equipment needed to operate a pool, regardless of its type? Let's ask Tyler what you might expect to have to replace and the associated costs in that time frame. Uh so let's so we talked 10 years for each type of pool. Um, let's you've you've mentioned a couple of the components there um that you can expect to have to replace. This is gonna be pretty much the same for all three types of pools. Um just quick yes or no, expect to replace it within 10 years. Pumps? Yes. Uh salt cells. Yes. Chlorinators, just traditional chlorinator, like an erosion feeder?

SPEAKER_01 17:50

Yeah, I think an erosion feeder you're gonna get you're gonna get 10 plus years out of that.

SPEAKER_02 17:54

Okay. Um heaters, chillers?

SPEAKER_01 17:58

Yeah, uh I would say gas heaters because they're not titanium heat exchangers, things you know that are gonna be a little bit of a softer metal, probably not gonna get 10 years out of. Um heat pumps, chillers with that titanium. If you're getting a unit with a titanium heat exchanger, you should get through that 10-year period with that piece of equipment.

SPEAKER_02 18:15

Okay, and at what point would you know are you guys seeing those having to be replaced if they can go beyond 10?

SPEAKER_01 18:21

Yeah, I think it's such a hard question to answer, Kristen, as you know, it's all water chemistry based, right? Are you keeping things with pen? But I mean, I would say 12 uh 12 years, 15 years on a on a heat exchanger or on something that you've taken care of would be good on a on a heat on a good quality heat pump.

SPEAKER_02 18:38

Yeah, yeah. Um, so let's let's so let's back up to those major components. I mean, there there's some outliers in there. There's like UV, and there's all there's a combination of there's I don't know, there's a lot of products out there, but those are those are the main ones. Your pump, um your your filter, which is really depending on what that is, you're just swapping out a small portion of that. You're not having to replace the whole thing. But your pump, your sanitation device, and then your heater or chiller. So how much is a pump uh gonna run these days? Because they're all variable speed now. There are no you know one you know single single stage uh pumps anymore. So what's a pump run these days?

SPEAKER_01 19:15

Yeah, I mean I think the entry point conversation that's about a $2,000 expense, right? So uh I think with the labor and installs and everything, you're really looking probably $2,500 to maybe three, slightly over $3,000 in our market to replace a variable speed pump.

SPEAKER_02 19:31

Yeah. And are people having to replace control panels for those pumps? Um, you know, should that would that include that?

SPEAKER_01 19:39

Yeah, yeah, I think that would be the top end there. If you're model for model and you can keep uh the controller, yes, if you're getting a new variation of something that needs a new controller, that's where we're getting into that three three plus um to replace all the components, uh, you know, then it really snowballs, as you as you already know, right? If that's hooked into an automation system, does that new pump talk to the automation system and all the things that happen with it? But most of the time with the big three, right, you're you're getting a pump that can plug and play with something that you had if you were already into a variable speed pump.

SPEAKER_02 20:10

Okay, cool. Um so salt cells or you know, an erosion chlorinator is really just plastic degrading over time. It's not an expensive component, um, but it can break down. More likely the salt cell is going to break down um in that 10-year period. So talk about costs. What should they plan to have squirreled away for when the time comes?

SPEAKER_01 20:28

Yeah, a lot of people when they talk to you about salt, they want salt because oh, it's so much cheaper to own and so much easier to operate. And we, you know, we could go completely on a tangent of that, right? But uh my message is always when you when you elect to have salt, go ahead and put that money in an envelope and keep it in the drawer because we are coming back for it, right? The money that you're saving and buying manufactured chlorine. Right. Most people are not gonna put the maintenance into acid washing the salt cell and doing the maintenance a couple times a year that really needs to help the extent of that life. Uh we're seeing salt cells two to three years as early as that needing to be replaced. Those are the people who aren't taking care of them get a little bit longer out of that if you are gonna do your matic acid baths and and keep the plates clean. Um but you know, same type of thing, we're two to twenty five hundred dollars to replace the salt system. Um, you know, in a 10-year period, if you're not somebody who's gonna take care of things, you could realistically think about doing that a couple times in that 10-year period.

SPEAKER_02 21:24

Yeah, yeah, easily, easily. Uh the other thing with salt is everyone um it is a nice swim experience. Um, it is uh much easier to deal with salt than it is with those you know caustic chemicals uh when you're maintaining the pool. But man, it is not a set it and forget it system, and you can do a lot of damage very quickly with a salt cell beyond the cell itself. So uh be very mindful um when you're making that call for your pool, your project. Um because you know, a lot of bad things can happen. Uh and you don't even see it. So um Okay, so heaters, chillers, did we cover the cost on those?

SPEAKER_01 22:02

Um you just give me talked about it very briefly. In our market, what we're seeing is anywhere from uh entry-level heaters, smaller BTUs for $4,500 up to five, five and a half thousand dollars to replace uh a good gas unit, and then um a little bit above that price point in into the heat pumps, but uh we just talked about we're probably not into a 10-year period on those at this point.

SPEAKER_02 22:25

So with regard to the heater uh or the heater chiller you know combo, uh how what what is the what is the lifespan of that depending on usage? I mean if it's if you're not using it a lot, you you got it because you thought maybe you were going to use it, and you really only turn it on a couple times a year, right? Umly when you've got guests coming in early in the season or late or whatever. Can you can you get more life out of it? Or can bad chemistry one time derail it and and lead to an early, you know, earl early death.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Yeah. No, I mean I think bad chemistry can absolutely uh uh lead to an early death. Now, is it bad chemistry for one week? Uh I mean that's certainly gonna have an impact on it, but it I don't think they're that fragile, I don't think they're that temperamental. Um but you know, uh you can certainly damage it very quickly with uh water that becomes very acidic and it can eat right through some of those internal heater parts. Um so yeah, I mean I I think it can be a very quick death. One of the things that I would say when you think about having a heater, and if it's not going to be something that you're using regularly, is it installed correctly? What I mean by that, does it have a bypass valve on it? Are we just valving it off? We've seen pool builders in our uh in our area literally just valve a heater off and you see dry rot more than anything of um you know, without it having a bypass valve where it just sits there with no water running through it, and that can be just as damaging of having you know acidic water running through it. So there's multiple things that can lead to the early demise of a heater, but with the assumption that you're gonna have good water care and someone who's spending the money to purchase a pool, they're gonna take care of it, uh, you're gonna get four, five, six years probably out of the out of a normal heater before you're gonna start to think about replacing that or need to replace that.

SPEAKER_02 24:07

Alright, so you have a clear picture now of the components that might need to be replaced within a 10-year period, and you have an idea of what today's costs are to replace those parts. But what about the other expenses that you can't really see, can't really touch, and you're definitely not gonna be able to avoid? We're talking insurance and property taxes. All right, let's let's jump into a bigger topic here. Um you you're not uh you're not an insurance guy, you're not a tax guy, but but how you know how do you answer that question? Is my insurance gonna go up? Are my taxes gonna go up? What how that question surely comes up in the sales conversation as people purchasing a pool. What do you how do you answer it?

SPEAKER_01 24:56

Yeah, um the the easier answer is everybody's different, every territory is different. Uh what I have come to find in my 18 years of doing this is most of your large insurance carriers are writing this into an umbrella liability policy on a property. Um your premiums do not significantly change with that. I think some factors that lead to what would result in increases would be things of that are going to add risk to the project. Are you installing a diving board? Are you installing a slide? Are you installing an automatic safety cover? Uh I think a lot of those things may affect what you're gonna see from from an insurance uh quote in a rate. Uh we have a couple uh insurance companies here locally that if you are putting on a diving board, they will not insure it at all. Uh so we've been in a couple situations where we've actually had to take slides off of contracts for them to even be able to have homeowners insurance on their pool.

SPEAKER_02 25:47

I was gonna ask if you guys are seeing more of that lately. Uh my neighborhood just went through a situation. We tried to get a diving board repaired, um, just those you know, rusty bolts over time, and uh the service company wouldn't touch it. And uh then the insurance company said, anything you have done to it, uh, we'll drop coverage, right? Basically, we're gonna the grandfather clause is void. Um, and then building, you know, led to the construction of a new pool, and again, plan for a diving board, no coverage. Um, and you know, this is in Virginia, and I'm also seeing homeowners report that they are losing coverage over slides now. So are you guys, you know, are you selling still selling slides, still selling diving boards? There are companies out there that will cover it.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

Yeah, I mean, we do very, very little of it. Uh, my normal answer is if my income was derived out of selling slides and diving boards, I wouldn't be talking to you today because I'd be be finding something else to do. I I think there's been a massive turn in the industry in the last four to five years for these pools to become enjoyment playment pool play pools, tanning ledges, common depths, things like that, where uh you know if we're building 100 plus pools a year, we're probably doing less than 10% with boards and or slides.

SPEAKER_02 27:05

Right, right. And uh automatic covers uh help or hurt the case, I imagine. Help?

SPEAKER_01 27:10

Yeah, significantly help. Yep. So uh in our our local state law, and I know other states are adopting this, in Indiana specifically, you either have to have a five-foot fence with lockable gates or an automatic cover. Uh here, if you do the automatic cover, you do not have to have a fence. Um totally crazy for some people who come from other states who aren't familiar with that to see pools and backyards without fences around them. But an insurance company is 100% gonna prefer an automatic cover over a fence for sure.

SPEAKER_02 27:39

Yeah, and let's just stick on that uh the automatic cover real quick for a second because it's um it's not just for the sake of insurance. I'm gonna give a safety plug here. Um, it really does add a lot of peace of mind when you've got little ones running around or you might have little ones running around, whether you know families in town visiting, or just the neighbor has little ones. Uh and those little rascals wander. And um holy smokes, uh, the the cost of the cover versus you know, it's it's it's a great thing to have. Plus, on the maintenance side, um, what what does that add to your uh your ease of maintenance, regardless of the pool type you have, if you have an automatic cover, what can you expect the benefit beyond safety to be? You know?

SPEAKER_01 28:22

Yeah, I mean safety safety, there's absolutely no price to put on that. I know that's not your question, right? But to echo what you said is uh it doesn't take a very big or or uh old kid to get over a five-foot fence anymore, but when they do, they have access to the pool. That fence does not protect your own people already in that house from getting out the back door and then finding the water. So from a safety aspect, you're absolutely right. Uh what we see locally is you could save 15-20% on chemicals by having an automatic cover. That keeps the sun, the UV rays off of the pool, uh, helps extend the life of the finish of the liner, uh, helps reduce the evaporation uh on the pool. So we don't do a whole lot of auto fills here, but the constant top-off from evaporation and usage. Uh, there are definitely scenarios where beyond safety, the cover has an immaculate benefit to pool ownership. Heat retention uh this year. I haven't turned my heater on one time. My pool's almost 90 degrees already. Uh I literally have not used my heater one time. So heat retention is another significant benefit of having an automatic cover.

SPEAKER_02 29:26

Yeah. Let's go back to that 15% in chemical savings here because it it happens a couple different ways. But let's let's go a little bit deeper and explain specifically, you know, what's happening. Because you just said you're protecting your water from the sun. You're like, well, that's the whole point of the pool is to enjoy it when the sun's out, right? Um, but but what what happens? Let's tell tell the folks what happens when sunlight hits your pool water. How does that affect the chemistry?

SPEAKER_01 29:49

Yeah, so I mean, I I think inevitably, talking through my own use case, right? Cover or no cover, we get into the sunny in the hot months, that's gonna bake a lot of those chemicals straight out of the pool when they're exposed to the sunlight uh all the time. If you're a liquid chlorine user, that's an unstabilized chlorine. If you're putting that in in the light, it's literally doing nothing for you, right? So you need everybody always talks about putting that in after sundown, things like that. But um, yeah, if you're not in the pool, you essentially have a lid protectant cover over the top of it. Um let's also look at the other side of it. If you are trapping all of that under the cover and not opening the cover regularly, you can do just as much damage to the pool by not opening it. You're tracking, trapping those harmful off gases and not allowing the pool to vent. So we tell people we really want you to open your cover at least an hour, two hours a day to let the off-gassing and get fresh air to it and things like that. But uh yeah, I mean, what that cover is benefiting is it's protecting those chemicals that you spent money on to be in the pool and keeping that sun and warm temperatures from literally just lifting them straight out of that water.

SPEAKER_02 30:51

Yeah, yeah. Uh and just quickly a term you use there, stabilize chlorine, what what you're referring to is uh the presence or not of cyanurec acid, and that we're not gonna get into the nitty-gritty here of chemicals. That's that's uh at least uh an hour-long episode at some point in the future. It could be a whole 10-part series, probably. Um but but stabilizing it, and cyaneuric acid is uh the short version of explaining this, it's basically a sunscreen for your chlorine. That's right. And um it prevents the sunlight from from just freely eating it up and um leading to usage. But not having automatic cover, you can plan on you know 15% higher uh chemical usage throughout throughout your season. So that's a good number to absolute real number. Yeah, fantastic. That's good. So your insurance is most likely going to ride along with the existing policy you have, unless you're having a slider diving board installed, and then you run the risk of losing coverage altogether. Having a cover, an automatic cover installed on your pool might actually be more of a requirement than it would be to help prevent any increase in insurance. And of course, the benefit of an automatic cover would actually more likely to help with your operational costs than it would in lowering your insurance. As for the hands-on work for the pool, what might it cost to DIY it versus hire it out? So let's talk about uh DIY versus uh hiring service out. What what is uh what are the costs of service right now? And you can speak directly to prices that you guys offer by week or by job or but in general, how are these services offered? What can people expect to uh to purchase? Um I guess different types of plans.

SPEAKER_01 32:38

Yeah, in our market, we've really seen this this program and this type of cervix explode. A lot of companies offering it, very competitive price, but typically, depending on the level of service, including the chemicals that we're using, I see anywhere from about $100 a week up to your premium white glove total D or total hands-off type of package in that $170 to $200 a week uh range here locally in the Midwest to take care of the pool. And again, that's all of your physical maintenance, that's the the brushing, the backwashing, the filter cleanings, that's all of your chemicals. Um if you're a DIYer, I would tell you that that plan that you need to have is at least two hours a week, probably for your pool. Um and then it just becomes a factor of what is your time worth, right? So I think most people would say somewhere in that $80 to $120, $150 an hour is what their time's worth, depending on what they do. Um so then it just comes down to is your time worth putting that into your pool or is that time better spent with your family at at the park in the pool, anywhere else, and and you know, you're essentially at a break-even to just hire somebody else to take care of it for you.

SPEAKER_02 33:48

Yeah, do you find people taking the lower or the higher end of the spectrum?

SPEAKER_01 33:52

We we actually are seeing the the more growth on our higher end program. Uh we we own all the liability with that. So if you get ammonia, we treat it. Uh if you get algae, we treat it. If you need a draininfill, we cover it. Um it's only fair, right? You're paying us, the professionals, to take care of it. We should be able to treat that pool and keep any of that from happening. But uh those can also be super expensive uh things to treat, right? You get a big algae bloom, you're spending a bunch of money to do that, drain and fills aren't cheap. Um talking about draining a fiberglass pool or draining a liner pool, it isn't a really easy uh thing to do, right? No. So we cover all of that on that higher end here. All that liability sits completely with us.

SPEAKER_02 34:31

Okay. And what about little little parts and pieces? O-rings, uh gaskets, uh baskets. You know, the even your skimmer basket is going to break down over time, needs to be replaced. The same basket inside of the uh the strainer pot on your pump, the the filters, you've got a cartridge filter or you've got to replace the sand. Do you guys see still see a lot of sand filters or or are we shifting mostly to cartridge these days for residential pools?

SPEAKER_01 34:56

Yeah, for our new construction, we're we're really shifting almost exclusively to cartridge. Uh we do still have quite a bit of sand out in the market that's been installed on previous pools uh that we're treating um and we're taking care of. So we do still do sand changes and backwashing for for customers. Um I think those are facing out similar to that single speed pump, right? It's uh just something that backwashing and sand changes are less and less every year, but uh definitely doing more cartridge filters.

SPEAKER_02 35:24

Yep. And that and that weekly cost you were just referencing, that includes those little pieces, o-rings, and those sorts of things?

SPEAKER_01 35:30

Yeah, on the higher end, we would definitely um you know it's a discretionary thing. If those were in bad shape before we took over the pool, those may be things that we would recommend replacing in order for us to take over the pool. Fair enough. It we we really take each case by case, but if someone's you know paying you to do that level of service for them uh throughout the summer, oh rings and valves and things by discretion, but they they become pretty easy fixes uh to maintain customer relationships. Just do the right thing for people.

SPEAKER_02 36:00

Yeah, absolutely. Uh so we've got the pool opened and we're maintaining it now. Um, but let's talk about the cost to open it, cost to close it. Do you see people opt uh more DIY or hire that out? And you know, even if um they're DIYing it, what would the cost be to hire that out?

SPEAKER_01 36:19

Yeah. So we open and close over a thousand pools a year. We close uh more than we open. I would say if you're a DIYer, uh there's probably less things that you could mess up in an opening uh than you could mess up with a closing, right? I forgot a 10 cent gasket in this return line and now my plumbing's cracked and I've got to dig up my concrete over a 10 cent O-ring, right? Um people who are looking for the liability to rest on someone else, they don't like that uh from the DIY standpoint. And we open and close, like I said, over a thousand pools a year. Rough cost of a standard opening for us uh is about $350. Closing's $450, $480, depending on what level of service you're having us do. Um but that's a blowout service. We would go to the manifold, blow all the lines out. Um we would have different fees for multi-pump systems versus single pump systems, but the the standard opening and closing is roughly $350 and $450.

SPEAKER_02 37:16

Yep. Um very good. Um any other like DIY versus hire it out things? Um I mean, should should you should you replace your own pump? Should you replace your own salt cell? Should you let's let's talk through some of those components.

SPEAKER_01 37:32

Yeah, uh, I mean, I'm never gonna tell anybody not to do it if they're technically inclined and feel like they can do that. Um we have retail stores, we will sell you the pump to take home and put on. We don't warranty anything that we don't install. Homeowners certainly understand that if we don't install it, I can't really guarantee that it was put in right, wired right, anything like that. Um we're here to support both, right? We have a lot of customers who are more than happy to grab a pump and take it home and we're happy to supply them with them. We have customers who get you know nervous with a screwdriver in their hand and they're not even gonna think about that. We have a seven or eight truck service department that we have out every day replacing pumps, replacing filters, things like that. Um so we we would cater to both sides of that. Other programs that we've offer, um, going back to your cartridge filter conversation that we just talked about, um, the number one service call we get throughout the season is low flow on heaters. Nine out of ten times it's not a heater problem at all. It's a it's a filter problem. Uh so we've really gained a lot of traction with the filter exchange program where we would just have like a script the subscription service where we would come out every other month, um, depending on where the pool's at, and just change cartridges. We show up, take the old ones out, take them back to our shop, clean them, put the new ones in. Um, and that's been a great program for us because you know a lot of people want to own a pool, uh, and then when they find out the cartridge cleaning and what's required with that, and it's not a glorious job. Uh it's a tedious job. So we have you know gained a lot of ground with that type of program where we're just doing cartridge swaps for people um to eliminate that maintenance for them.

SPEAKER_02 39:09

What's the average lifespan on a cartridge uh cartridge these days?

SPEAKER_01 39:14

Yeah, um, well, I mean, I guess that depends on on what quality of cartridge you get, right? I mean, I think you get what you pay for across the board with that, but uh we're seeing, I mean, we recommend at least every two years changing cartridges, and that means like literally replacing them with a brand new unit. How you know you can keep your eyes on the bands to see if the bands are still intact, if the pleats are becoming separated. Um, you know, but there's ways to clean them that are the right ways, and there's people who just take them out on the driveway and beat the heck out of them with a pressure washer and call it good, right? So um, but yeah, I mean we recommend if that filter is roughly two years old, unless you've got two or three sets that you're regularly rotating through, uh, it's probably time to just replace that with a new unit.

SPEAKER_02 39:56

Yeah, I would agree. Keep an eye on your flow rate, and uh that's probably one of the hardest things on your on your entire system is not getting enough water, the pump being able to do what it needs to do to filter things properly. And if you just watch that little gauge and you know what normal is for your pool, uh, you know, keep that sucker clean for sure. So when deciding to DIY or hire out the maintenance of your pool, it really comes down to a math problem for you and your personal preference. Are you a hands-on person and can you take on those tasks? Or do you simply not have the time and you only want to enjoy the pool? You do the math and make the right choice for you. But there's another value to owning a pool, and putting a number to it is virtually impossible. I asked Tyler, in his 18 years of experience, has he ever had anyone indicate they regretted owning a pool? His answer surprised me. Alright, man, let's go back to the fun side of this thing. Uh just, you know, you you're in it, you you talked about your own pool in the backyard and and how much fun your family gets out of it. Um, you know, the you got any other fun stories? Just customers that were more rewarded than they than they thought they were gonna be when they bought a pool from you guys.

SPEAKER_01 41:15

Yeah, um one of my other favorite stories is um I live in Zionsville. I didn't know this family. Um it's a north side suburb of of um of Indianapolis. Sold a pool uh to another couple uh on the other side of town, and uh this was right after I had done my pool, and I just talked to them about the experience that kids have and and how fun it is. Uh and they had, I'm guessing this this young gal was probably about five or six years old, and I was still in the pool, and uh they had told her that they were gonna write a check uh for the pool, and they were so she was so excited that she actually drew her own check and wrote me a check to help pay for the pool for her parents because she was so excited about it. Um, just fun things like that, man. Just you know, getting to know families, getting to know their kids, knowing that they're gonna enjoy it, running into them at the restaurant. Um I had another lady who told me uh, you know, I ran into her over on the east side of Indy one time and the gas station, and she said, Tyler, I want to talk to you about my pool. There's something you didn't prepare me for, and I've spent a lot of money on this. And and you know, I try to pride myself on doing a beautiful job and being as thorough as I can. And I'm taking back and I'm I'm I'm so sorry what happened. And she said, You did not prepare me for the cost of peanut butter and jellies and all these things that I was gonna have to have for all these kids who want to come to my house now. And I said, Well, what a great problem to have, right? And obviously, joking, but that's I tell that story, right? What's the cost of ownership for a pool look like? And I start to talk about the peanut butter jellies and hot dogs and the bottles of water and all that, because you will be the place to be now, and you're gonna be hosting some hosting some fun get-togethers.

SPEAKER_02 42:49

Oh man, that is a that is a fantastic. I wish there was a stat for that. How much your peanut butter and jelly bill is going to going to go up. And what it is, what is it about? Because uh uh, you know, we hate we hit the boys had their friends over this past weekend, and we did all the things. We were out on the river, we went fishing, uh, they were they were out in the woods, they were slingshots, they were squirrel hunting, they were doing all the little boy things, right? Uh, and then and then they were in the pool, and you ask them, what's your favorite thing from the whole weekend? It's the pool. Every single time. The pool, the pool is always the winner. Um, which really brings brings this whole conversation together. Have you ever had somebody go through the maintenance of the pool and compare that to the time they've gotten to spend together outside and thought, man, this was not worth it?

SPEAKER_01 43:36

Um, no. I I mean I I can't even think of a single person. I've done this for 18 years. I've probably sold maybe close to a thousand pools myself, and I I cannot come up with a single family who told me that this was this was not worth it. They regretted doing it.

SPEAKER_00 43:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:55

Um I I go back to people ask me that question in a sales meeting like, hey, do you have people who Who say this didn't work out or things. Um, I don't remember what year it was, but there was a Pew internet data study that was done, and it was to prospective pool owners, and the number one reason that people stated they wouldn't get a pool was the maintenance, um, the perceived maintenance, right? And then um they asked pool owners the number one reason they wouldn't get a pool again, and the expectation was maintenance was the number one. I don't remember what the answer number one was, but it was uh an astounding percentage that it wasn't they wouldn't get another pool because of the maintenance. So I what I always like to know or remember from that is the perceived maintenance and the actual maintenance are sometimes not in alignment. Uh I've got families that I've built pool four pools for. Uh I've got families that we built three pools for. Um I think it's just one of those things that once you have and you get to experience with your family, one of my favorite things about it is the tablets, the phones, all of that stuff stays in the house, and we get uninterrupted fun and family time and connection, and they're here. I know who they're with, I know what they're doing. Uh another family that I'll never forget told me they weren't buying a pool, they were buying a grandkid magnet. Um purpose for the pool. And, you know, that was the reason the kids wanted to come over to grandma and grandpa's house is they had the pool, right? So it's just a it's a focal point of gathering and fun and relaxation, and that's what's kept them in it for 18 years. It's just a fun, fun thing to have and uh to share with others.

SPEAKER_02 45:24

Yeah, there's there is a cost to put it in the ground, there is a cost to maintain it, but those memories you build around it, though you cannot put a price tag on those. So the perceived maintenance is the thing that might scare some folks away from buying a pool. But from those who own, the actual ownership is something they indicate they would never trade back. Before we parted ways, I wanted to ask Tyler if he had any parting advice for anybody who might be in your shoes considering having a pool installed. And I wanted to ask specifically what he would say if somebody was trying to decide whether now is the time to buy or should they wait. Tyler, anything else we need to cover for the folks? Anything of of any words of wisdom after all your time in the industry so far?

SPEAKER_01 46:14

Yeah, you know, I mean, I don't I don't know that it's anything different and above what we've talked about. I would just tell you my perspective on all of this change. Like I said in our opener, right, once I had a pool versus selling these and designing these before having one, my perspective changed significantly on it. And I would just say the biggest thing for me when we talk about it's a little bit off topic of tenure overall cost, but when we're talking about project design and implementing a pool, things that would be important to consider. Um it's not as much about how much of the water you're getting, and it it's more about what you're creating around it. Because when you have people over and you host parties, everyone's in and out of the pool, but very rarely are everybody in the pool. So I would say my biggest takeaway and and aha moment I've had by doing this is learning that it's just as important to think about creating an entire space around it as it is to just being laser focused on the actual pool itself.

SPEAKER_02 47:11

Yeah, good advice, good advice. And we just did a couple episodes on that. How do you design all of that outdoor living space around it so that you get as much enjoyment out of it as possible throughout as much of the year as possible? Um because yeah, m most of your time is actually not in the water, it's it's around the water. And um, man, that's so good advice there. Good advice. Well, Tyler.

SPEAKER_01 47:33

I guess my last my last piece of advice would be it's it's always going to be easy to say we're gonna put it off for another year, but nine out of ten clients who I see who say we're gonna put it off or we want the kids to be older end up regretting that. And this sounds like a salesman's answer, but it's you know, you're deferring those memories with your family, you're def you're deferring costs, nothing's getting cheaper anymore at the grocery store, at the gas pump, at the pool store. Um, there's no better time than now to do this. And I would tell you, if you want to do it, you you'll have a couple extra years of memories and enjoyment, no matter what the age of the kids are. I would just encourage you to pull that trigger and get the thing in. You'll never ever regret the time you're gonna have around it.

SPEAKER_02 48:11

I I agree 100%. And I think everybody who has children, uh, you know, regardless of how you ended up in your parental situation, everyone has been told the phrase or heard the phrase, it will go faster than you think. And man, that is 100% true. The clock does not stop. Uh, they do not stop growing up. And uh and and as many different ways as you can make memories with them, go do it. And um, if you're thinking about a pool because you want to have family time around it, go do it. 100%. You got it. Good stuff. Tyler, thanks for your time today. We appreciate your expertise. And uh next time I'm up in Indy, we'll uh we'll have to get together.

SPEAKER_01 48:53

I'll look forward to it. I appreciate the opportunity to be here and appreciate everything you guys do for for river pools and for the industry. You guys do a great job.

SPEAKER_02 49:00

Thank you, Biden. All right, we'll see you soon.

SPEAKER_01 49:02

All right, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 49:03

So here's what I would take from Tyler today. The cost of owning a pool over a 10-year period is pretty real. You should plan for the number, you should be prepared, and you should go in not having any surprises. However, over those 18 years, Tyler has never heard anybody indicate regret for having the pool. If anything, the value of handing out countless PBJs and watching first swims or moments that just cannot be replayed any other way except in our memories, become the invaluable parts of owning a pool. If you're still in the planning stages for having a pool installed in your backyard and you've got more questions, head on over to Riverpoolsandspas.com. You can find countless resources over there and self-guided tools to help you make decisions and gather information along the way. The website can also help connect you with a pool builder who services your area. I hope you found this episode helpful. I'm Christian with River Pools, and you've been listening or watching the Pool Guides Podcast.