Disrupting HR: Lessons in Curiosity, Influence, and Building a Global Movement | Jennifer McClure

Jennifer McClure, founder of Disrupt HR, explains why curiosity, not authority, is what earns leaders influence.

Topics Covered:

•       How Jennifer went from corporate HR to founding a global movement

•       Why a “seat at the table” isn’t the same as having influence

•       The difference between giving advice and real coaching

•       What it means to lead as a “strategic” HR leader

After nearly two decades in corporate HR, Jennifer McClure kept running into the same wall: being in the room wasn’t the same as being heard. What she learned instead changed how she leads and eventually launched a global movement.

Jennifer believes HR is the most important job in any company, not because of rank, but because it’s the one role that touches every employee. That conviction led her to found Disrupt HR in 2013, now 170+ communities strong in 28 countries.

Her biggest shift came from blunt feedback: people didn’t want her in meetings because she only pointed out what couldn’t be done. Her fix was simple; ask “tell me more” before reacting, even when she disagreed. That one habit turned her from a roadblock into someone people actively wanted in the room.

Takeaways:

•       Curiosity beats advice

•       A seat at the table means nothing without influence

•       Every business goal, from revenue to quality, is really a people problem

“Curiosity is an amazing thing to have in your toolkit — to build relationships, grow your influence, build trust, and get to the best solution. Always lead with curiosity.”

— Jennifer McClure

Connect with Jennifer McClure:

Website: https://jennifermcclure.net/

DisruptHR: https://disrupthr.co/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennifermcclure/

https://www.auris.io/

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Transcript

Chris Allen 0:20

Welcome to the Entrepreneur Studio Podcast brought to you by RIS. Today's episode begins our series of conversations recorded live at Sterm 26 in Orlando, Florida. Sterm is the world's largest professional association dedicated to human resource management and creating better workplace environments for everyone. As a part of the event, I had the opportunity to sit down with leading voices who are shaping the future of entrepreneurship, culture, and workplace dynamics. And if you're hungry to learn what it takes to build a successful business, these conversations are tailored to help you win. Thanks for tuning in, and let's get on to the show.

SPEAKER_03 0:57

I have always believed that human resources is the most important job in every organization. It's the only job in every organization that has the opportunity to influence and impact every single employee.

Chris Allen 1:15

What if an overlooked function in business could actually be the most important one? Disrupt HR started at a Cincinnati brewery in 2013 and has grown to over 170 communities across 28 countries. This global movement exists to energize, inform, and empower people in the HR field, giving a platform to those who have something worth saying but haven't had a stakes to say it from. I had a chance to sit down with HR strategist and founder of Disrupt HR, Jennifer McClure, to discuss why she spent four decades proving one simple idea that the human resources function in an organization isn't merely a support role. It's the most important seat in any company and the only one with the power to touch every single employee. I'm Chris Allen, and if you're leading people or building a team, this conversation will challenge how you think about people and what becomes possible when you treat them as your greatest ass. Thank you. Well, you spent nearly two decades inside corporate HR before walking away to shake this whole thing up. What was the moment you realized playing by the rules wasn't going to accomplish the change that you wanted to see happen?

SPEAKER_03 2:34

Oh. You're coming out hard, Harold. I think that I mean that happened in corporate as well. I don't know that I always played by the rules. I mean, I wouldn't have called myself a disruptor, but I think there's always opportunity to look at work differently, and there's always opportunity to shake things up. And I have been a fan of that. You know, I've I give myself a little bit of creativity for some of the things I did in HR. Um, you know, to be frank, I started my career in HR four decades ago, and it was called Personnel Then. And I was 23 years old when I started my first job as the personnel manager slash shipping and receiving manager. So that's how much they thought of HR. It had to be two jobs.

Chris Allen 3:22

Part-time job.

SPEAKER_03 3:23

That's right. But I was the youngest person in the company and the only female on the leadership team. And I always say I give young Jennifer a lot of grace. She was just trying to be heard. Um, you know, so I might have been a little bull in the china chop in some ways of you will listen to me and we're gonna do this. And I also did my fair share of we can't do that because it's again our against our policy and uh or we'll get sued. And I learned that that wasn't the way to get anybody to listen to you. So I learned that I needed to be more a part of helping solve the issues rather than being the one that was always putting barriers in front of people, which I think a lot of, especially early HR career people do. Um we are responsible for managing risk and we are responsible for enforcing policies. So when we show up in the meetings, we think that's the lens that we need to have. But the real lens is the business focus. How do we enable people to deliver on the business objectives? And that involves a lot of conversation. Here's what I think about what you just said. Tell me more why you disagree with what I'm saying. I'd like to understand your point of view. You know, we're working towards the same goal. And I had to learn a lot of those lessons the hard way. So long answer. I guess I was disruptive by, especially early in my career, doing a lot of HR wrong and having the bruises for that.

SPEAKER_02 4:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:52

But also being a person who doesn't like to fail, uh, so kind of in real time, figuring some of it out. Well, that certainly didn't work, so maybe we should try again.

Chris Allen 5:03

I love it. You know, uh founder, speaker, disruptor, it's like you were designed to challenge the system you came from, right? If you were to look back at where it all started and where you are today, what's something that has sort of stayed true? What's the the connection that you're like this is still me?

SPEAKER_03 5:22

Sure. For me, I have always believed that human resources or personnel, when I started, is the most important job in every organization. 10,000-person company, 100-person company. I think the HR people are the most important. Now, uh, ChatGPT told me recently that I should, you know, I if I'm talking about being business focused, that maybe that's not the right way to look at it. And I was like, shut up, Chat GPT. Um I believe HR is the most important in the sense that it's the only job in every organization that has the opportunity to influence and impact every single employee. The work product that we put out impacts the people in the organization, and we are also, you know, but it's maybe a little bit too high of a title, but kind of the guardian of the people's side of the business. You know, people will always tag HR with being untrustworthy because they are there to protect the business. And I've always said that is one of my hats. I'm there to protect the business, but I'm also there to advocate for the employees, but I'm there as a whole to, again, how do we work together to move the business forward? So that's been my through line. It is the reason why I chose personnel with no having never met anyone who worked in HR when I was asked by my advisor in college to pick a major and figure out what I wanted to be when I grew up. I said, I want to be in personnel. And he said, why? And I said, because I think it's the most important job in every company. And I always say I was a millennial before millennials were a thing. I wanted, I wanted the most influence and impact I could get. And I thought that was the path to get it. I can't own the company from day one, but I can work in a job where what I do allows me to, especially in a small company where I started, know everybody. Um the work I do impacts everybody, and it's important. You know, fast forward through a few career moves in corporate and then fast forward through, you know, to disrupt HR and what I do today as a speaker and coach, I still believe we, you know, it's cliche maybe uh to say people are our biggest asset. And usually when someone says that, you can kind of give them the side eye because they're probably just repeating what's on the dusty plaque on the wall. But people really, I think COVID, if nothing else, proved to us that all of the amazing innovation that came out of COVID, if we now can look at it six years later and call it innovation and not pain, was because of people. People are creative, people are intelligent, people figure out how to work in different conditions and they find ways to create things that are more successful. So the fact that I get to be responsible for that asset, I think it's still exciting today. So I will I will always advocate. Maybe it'll be on my tombstone someday if I have one. HR is the most important job in every organization.

Chris Allen 8:16

There you go. Well, tell us a little bit about how Disrupt HR came to life for you.

SPEAKER_03 8:21

Sure. Well, I was about three years into, so I said I about 20 years in HR in the corporate world, four years or so in executive search. And while I was in executive search, I was helping a lot of senior executives in transition, which then resulted in them asking me to come in and speak to their leadership teams. And I realized I liked being a speaker. So I stepped out on my own in 2010 to do this full-time. And part of that was speaking at a lot of conferences and events, you know, going out and, you know, doing breakout sessions in the beginning to just get my name out there and hopefully get on the keynote stage eventually. And because I was going to, at the time, maybe 50 or 60 conferences, events in the year, a lot of them certainly in the HR recruiting space, because I had a message for those people, but I was also talking at entrepreneur conferences and small business conferences. I saw a lot of the same people and I heard a lot of the same topics. And so going to all these events, I'm kind of like, I think some of the people out in the audience also have something to say, but they either never want to be up on this big stage or they don't have all of the accoutrements to get selected. And so I was thinking, well, maybe someday I could create an event where people who have need to have a voice could have an opportunity to speak. So just in a meeting with an entrepreneur that's in the Cincinnati startup community, I was on the advisory board for his HR Tech startup at the time, and we were having lunch. And he said, you know, you've been doing this speaking thing for about three years. You know, are you seeing anything different? What's on your mind? And I told him my idea. And being an entrepreneur, he literally whipped a notebook out of his back pocket and started writing down. He's like, tell me more. You know, I love this idea. This is great. And I'm like, slow down. I'm an idea person, I don't know about execution. Um, so he called maybe a week or so later and said, I just I can't stop thinking about this, and I think we could do it, and my team will help. Um, and I think we should call it disrupt because he was at the start at the time, there was a conference called TechCrunch Disrupt. It was the big thing for startup people, I guess. He said, We can call it Disrupt HR. Uh, and he was the community organizer for Ignite events, which are community-driven events where people from the community talk about their idea about you know going green or whatever it is. And the Ignite format is five minutes with 20 slides that advance automatically every 15 seconds. So, Chris Ostrich is my business partner with Disrupt HR. Um, he was the one that had that idea. Use that Ignite format, make it fun. Uh, the first event we had was in December of 2013 in Cincinnati, and you know, we held it at a historic brewery downtown, and they had cornhole games and ping pong tables, and you know, we gave free beer, and people were able to come and listen to myself and some other people give fun talks, and they laughed and they had a good time. And afterwards, a friend of mine had attended the event who lived in Denver, and she said, I'd like to do this in Denver. And so we said, Sure, we'll help you. And then we put the videos online, I guess, from those two events, and somebody reached out to me from Toronto, and somebody reached out to Chris from Vancouver, and so it really was never more in my head of I just want to give people an opportunity to share their ideas. Thankfully, Chris helped put some structure around that. And I think what it's become now, you know, it'll be 13 years in December, I guess. It's more, I mean, even we're here at the Sherm conference, and people are coming up to me if they see my name tag and they're like, oh, I spoke at my disrupt HR event, you know, or I've spoken at five of them, or and I just really love Disrupt HR because it's fun and it's, you know, we get to have fun and we get to learn and to meet people who think like us. And when I sit in the audience, I always 100% of the time feel a sense of pride in what Disrupt HR has done. I kind of separate myself for it in some way, because I hear people that talk, and then I come, they come off the stage, and afterwards I might go up to them and be like, your idea was amazing. And they're like, that's the first time I've ever spoken. Wow. And every time somebody says that, I'm like, this is why we created it. Now it's becoming more like a TEDx talk, I think, for some people. So people want to get on the stage, they want the video, so more professional types are applying. But I I discontinue to tell our organizer, I don't tell them who they have to pick, but I say the original idea was there are people in your community that have ideas that need to be heard. And I'm proudest. Well, I'm proud of everybody. We have over 11,000 disrupt HR talk videos out there online now. I'm proud of everybody who's done it. So I think Disrupt HR became more than just people being able to share their ideas. It became an opportunity for people to challenge themselves, to prove to themselves that they could do it, again, to meet like-minded people and have fun. So that wasn't my big vision, but I think that's what a lot of uh things that turn out really well are when you let them, you let people own it and make it what they want, and it becomes something great.

Chris Allen 13:34

That's awesome. Yeah. I think I think one of the best parts about that is there's something happening beyond and it's kind of movement oriented, but you're the giving people a voice that have ideas. That's such a powerful thing. What do you think is unexpected about what's happened with this disrupt HR? Something you didn't you didn't really see.

SPEAKER_03 13:52

Well, I didn't see it becoming, you know, 170 licensed communities in 28 countries and 11,000 talks. So that's surprising. Again, I think it's it's become more than my vision of just giving people a voice. It's become a place to test ideas, it's become a place where people can, you know, the learning format, we were ahead of the curve back when, you know, and I still do keynotes that sometimes are an hour and a half. And I can stand up there and talk for an hour and a half. The question is whether or not the audience is paying attention for that long because our attention spans are getting shorter. So five-minute talks, I think, are a good way for people to just get a little, you know, seasoning of an idea and then maybe follow up with the speaker or go back to their team and share the video or something. So it's it's I do think it is kind of interesting. I I gave a talk at the 10-year anniversary event we gave in Cincinnati for it, and I called it what I've learned after 10 years of disruption. And I just used a lot of memes to, you know, kind of make fun of disrupt HR. One of them was the gladiator, where he says, Are you not entertained? And I said, I hear all the time from people who go, I went to a disrupt HR event and I wasn't disrupted.

SPEAKER_02 15:03

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03 15:04

And I'm like, what were you looking for when you went to the event? Space lasers or you know, something that's never been done before. If you went to a disrupt HR event, you met somebody that you've never met before, you had a great conversation, you had someone pique your interest and make you think a little differently, or it confirmed an idea that you already had, I think you've been disrupted. And that part, I think I'm I hear more and more when I'm out and about and people recognize my company name or maybe they recognize me. They want to tell me those stories. They want to tell me how they spoke for the first time and now they're a professional speaker who gets five figures for speaking at events. They want to tell me about they met their business partner at the event and now they have a successful, you know, whatever marketing agency. They want to tell me about how it helped them to have more competence to grow in their career. That's the unexpected, I think. And that's what makes me proud to be associated with.

Chris Allen 16:02

Well, there are other people that come up to you and tell you things like, uh, you know, I don't want to do this job anymore because uh I'm not able to be strategic. And you've definitely talked about this before. And I wanted to see if there was an opportunity for you to share a little bit of that version of the story where, from your point of view, you re-encountered people like that later and this idea that not being able to be strategic uh may only be in our minds.

SPEAKER_03 16:27

Yeah, I mean, I can I can obviously talk from the HR lens because I've I've lived it and certainly orbited that space for my whole career. But there was a period of time, you know, when I started it was personnel, HR was very administrative, that's just what it was. And then I think in the 80s, HR became more than just personnel in many companies and obviously changed their name. Now we're even continuing to be like people in culture and people's success, and we've just come up with all the names now. But there was a period of time, especially, and it was right around the time I started my speaking business, so 2000. So you go to a conference and every speaker was talking about seat at the table, and every HR person was like, I want that seat at the table, or I have the seat at the table. Or, you know, LinkedIn profile headlines being, you know, I'm a strategic HR leader, and it was always amusing to me. I have a lot of questions, you know, if somebody comes up to me and they say they want to work for a small or mid-sized company, I always say, Well, what does that mean for you? Because it's different for everybody. So when someone would introduce themselves to me as a strategic HR leader, um, my fun fact is to say, Well, tell me what that means to you. And almost always it was some version of where I sit on the organization chart or what meetings I either attend or don't. And sometimes I'd hit people maybe harder than they expected, uh, but I certainly was in my talk talk about it is having a strategic focus means you're focused on the business. That means you understand the business. It's not just the Sherm capability of business acumen. It's I truly understand our business, and I am in the room at the table because I have a perspective to share on the business. And as the HR person, I'm not there just to say we can't do this because we'll get sued. I'm there to have that lens, and I'm there to have the lens of, you know, we've got conversations going on in boardrooms all over about AI and what companies are going to do. And we see companies every day laying off, you know, tens of thousands of people, but yet they're profitable. That tells me that someone wasn't in the room or representing the fact that, well, if we free up people to do different work because now some of the you know routine work is being handled by AI, which is true. Let's get creative and think about what they could do instead to continue to grow our business, to make it bigger instead of saying we're chasing efficiency. Um, so that strategic focus, I like to make sure, especially again for HR people, that it's rightly placed. That I am there to make sure the talent strategy aligns to the business strategy. Not just aligns, actually, but the talent strategy drives the business strategy. Back to we're the most important employees in the organization. We are driving the business if we are doing the right things, because every business objective, and I mean, they are always typically quality, safety, productivity, customer satisfaction, rev top line revenue growth. You know, you could probably name six typical strategic objectives. Every single one of those involves a people strategy. If we need to have high quality products, our people need to love their work, they need to be proud of their work, they need to be fully trained and capable to do the work. If we want to grow top line revenue, we have to have high quality products we're proud of. But our salespeople need to be able to go out and really convince people they need to buy it. Every one of those has a people lens, and the best strategic HR leaders are focused on whatever my lane is in the business, how do I drive business results? Too many HR people want to claim that strategic HR leader title, but then if you, you know, I if I were consulting with the company, I'd be like, let me see your goals and objectives. Well, implement new HRS software, increase open enrollment efficiency. These are HR goals. What I need to know is what are your goals that if our goal is to increase top line revenue, how does HR drive that? How does HR drive quality? How does HR drive productivity? HR being the people strategy.

Chris Allen 20:25

I love it. One of the things that I have appreciated is uh when I've seen great HR leaders is they're not always trying to lead from the front. They're definitely understanding the business and then figuring out a way to help drive the thing that helps move the business. Not necessarily I have a strategic seat at the table and I'm I'm leading from the front all the time. And so sometimes you can lead from other positions, could be lead from the behind and helping things go. So, like, what are some of the things that you've seen as it relates to people getting themselves into good positions to really help the business?

SPEAKER_03 20:56

Well, again, Jennifer, who learned a lot of things by doing it wrong. Um, I was that HR leader for many years who would show up and I like to participate. I certainly was active in the discussions, but I'd also throw a lot of roadblocks. People, you can't do that. Our people won't let us do that. You know, that's against our policy. We'll get sued. And one day my boss pulled me aside and he said, Jennifer, nobody wants you in those meetings. I had the seat at the table. Uh he said, nobody wants you in these meetings because you're always telling us what we can't do. I highly recommend you start to think about how you can help us do that. So, what I think works really well, and again, what I learned over time is even if, first of all, I have to control my poker face, which I don't have. So I also got some advice about that. We know exactly what you're feeling in the meeting. I'm like, okay, I gotta do better. Um, train myself to listen, tell me, tell me more. You know, that's always a good question when you're shocked, appalled, or otherwise disgusted. Tell me more. Why do you feel that way? And how do you think this is going to work out? So the more I can ask questions, the more I can engage with your idea instead of just dismissing it. But I really, you know, again, what I learned, and hopefully, you know, a year later, maybe my boss gave me better feedback is you want people to want you in the room. Again, having the seat at the table is just attendance. What you want is that people look around the room and it's not an executive meeting. But maybe it's a strategy meeting for a new product launch, and they look around the room and they're like, HR's not here, Jennifer is not here. She always has great ideas and good input. We need to make sure she's here. I want to be the person that you want in the room because I make ideas better with a business lens, that I'm not just there to tell you what's wrong or to keep you out of trouble. I'm there to help the best ideas come to light. So learning how to ask questions, learning how to uh a really smart piece of advice for any leader is I'd like to go think about this. Again, don't just it's not, it's not a no. I'd like to go think about this and gather some data. I have maybe a different idea about how we could do this. Could you give me two days and we could get back together and talk about maybe some other options? Um, so being really thoughtful, again, I was also known as I'm I'm a driver. I want, let's do it, execute, make it happen. People come in to the HR office, they have a question, I'd be like, no. Um, I'd be like, no, no, no. Again, same boss said, Jennifer, people come to you, you give them an answer right away, and they know that your answer is probably correct, but they don't feel like they've been heard. And so my approach was then, even if they came in and I knew the answer was no, I'd say, let me think about that. Maybe I, you know, didn't really think I needed to think about it, but after I did, or maybe I went and talked to some other people about it, I was able to come back, and even if the answer was still no, to tell them why I was saying no instead of just no, to tell them what I thought differently about. You know, so being more thoughtful is good leadership advice for any leader to listen first. You know, I have an executive coaching certification, which when I went through that training, I'll never forget I learned the hard way again very quickly. The difference between advice giving and coaching. I was that was after I left my corporate HR career, and I thought I had always been a good coach. You know, people come to me all the time, they ask my ideas. I got ideas for you, I give it very quickly. But I learned I was giving a lot of advice. And when you give advice, that means about half the time people will be like, oh wow, thank you for giving me the answer. I'm gonna go do that. About the other half of the time, maybe even more, they leave and they go, I don't think she even listened to me. Coaching is again good advice for any leader is I need to not be thinking about the answer. I need to be thinking about the next question I need to ask you. I need to understand more why you're struggling with this. I need to understand more why you're so excited about this idea. I don't just need to either dismiss it out of hand or accept it. I will be better, we will be better. Back to that, I want to be the person that helps come to the best decisions if I just focus on asking the next question. Again, tell me more. Even if I'm appalled, tell me more. Yeah. Um, so that's I think again, good advice for any leader.

Chris Allen 25:19

Well, I there's uh two really cool things in there. One is the practice of curiosity, right? Just be more curious. And that helps people have a sense of connection, right? And you know, they're answering these questions. But the other thing that I like about your stepping away is this kind of skill of perspective taking where you're like, you know what, I'm gonna try and see it from their side, right? And that that's a very useful and humbling thing that can happen is that even if you're appalled, being able to take their perspective and see how they're there, you're like, okay, makes sense. And when when I tend to do that, I can connect with them in a way that would hopefully help them see why this thing that we're having to say no to, or this yes and or no but kind of approach can be really, really helpful for people.

SPEAKER_03 26:05

Yeah, I listened to a podcast with Adam Grant, uh it's probably been a couple of years ago now, where he was talking about, you know, how do we have conversations with people that have different political beliefs than us, which is obviously the world we live in. And he always brings research and studies, and you know, but he was research shows that if you sit across from a table, a person with someone who has a different perspective, you will get zero place if you just start telling them all the ways they're wrong, and they will probably get zero uh traction with you if they do the same. The best way to maybe even convince somebody to come over to the other side is to understand why they believe what they do, to ask good questions about why they support this or they don't. Not only will that broaden out your own perspective, but to your point about curiosity, when I get asked, you know, what's the most important quality that you know I can have if I want to be a leader, it is curiosity. That's always been my answer. And that that's what's saved young Jennifer who did all these things wrong. You know, boss tells you that nobody wants to end the meeting, get curious about why that is instead of denying that this feedback exists. You know, um, when something's working or not working, get curious about how we could fix it. But even more important, get curious when something is working if we can do it better. So the curiosity is just an amazing thing to have in your toolkit, both to build relationships, to grow your influence, to build trust, to get to the best solution. Always lead with curiosity.

Chris Allen 27:34

Well, if HR is gonna sort of, let's say, major on the majors, if you're, let's say, a small business operator and you're on the HR team or leading the HR team, what's one way that you can really lead with HR in a small business?

SPEAKER_03 27:49

Well, it may again may sound a little counterintuitive, but lead with HR by truly understanding the business and focusing on the business goals. Back to, I think, you know, John Maxwell is one of my favorite quotes from him is you know, leadership is influence, nothing more, nothing less. I want to be influential. So young Jennifer wanted the seat at the table. More seasoned Jennifer wants to have influence. I want people to come to me again because I help make decisions better. I want people to involve me because I can help them grow. So that influence, I think, is what if you're in a small company, whether you're an HR or you're the marketing leader, how do I get influence? Well, how do you get influence? Let's turn to another seasoned speaker. Zig Ziggler says, if you want to get what you want, help other people get what they want.

SPEAKER_02 28:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:39

So back to how do I figure out to get my colleagues to trust me? How do I get them to see that I have influence? I do that by helping them achieve their goals. So how can I, again, sit down with my peers or colleagues and say, what are you struggling with? What's your team, you know, need in order to hit our business goals? And especially, again, back to HR, most important role. Uh, if you're an HR, when you ask those questions, there are always going to be people problems. Always, you know, I don't have enough people. I don't have the right people. My people don't have the right training. They don't have the right tools. There's so many avenues you can take when you just sit down and ask somebody, what's the biggest challenge you're facing with your team right now?

Chris Allen 29:17

Well, I think it takes a lot of creativity to take the answers that you get from those questions and actually help, right? And I think that's a that's another facet, right, of the curiosity is being able to be creative enough to do that. And I think that's another thing that makes people influential, right? Is being creative. People come to you for that creativity.

SPEAKER_03 29:34

Yeah, to your point on curiosity, you know, when I give HR leaders that advice and they say, you know, I went to my sales leader, you told me that it would be a people problem. And I went to my sales leader and he said, Well, the biggest problem facing me right now is our pricing strategy. And I didn't know what to do with that. And I'm like, what you do with that is to get curious. How do the people solve that problem? Again, is it a training issue? Is it that our incentive structure is wrong? Is it that the communication of the new strategy was handled the wrong way? Get curious to find the angle that you can use.

Chris Allen 30:07

Everybody, let's give Jennifer a round of applause. Thank you so much for coming here.

Narrator 30:12

Thank you for listening to the Entrepreneur Studio Podcast. Check the show notes for resources and links from today's episode, and follow us on Instagram at the entrepreneurs.studio. See you next time.