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The Topher Brown Show
Church Hurt
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This week we throw scripture at all of your “church” hurt problems. Believe us when we say, His Word does not lie.
Church hurt. Now some of you were triggered as I said those words just now. There's a lot of us out there who have experienced this type of hurt, but we need to define exactly what that is. For example, did the church hurt you, or did someone within a church body hurt you? Let's discuss that. This is the Topher Brown Show. Hey everybody, welcome back to the Topher Brown Show. Appreciate you tuning in and watching wherever you're watching from and listening wherever you're listening from. We always appreciate everybody that tunes in and supports the show in that way. Today we're going to be talking about something called church hurt, as you heard in the intro there. And I know that that's a touchy subject for a lot of folks listening right now. There's a lot of us who have experienced something like that. But as I said in the intro, like we really need to, and in order to understand what we've experienced, we need to we need to be able to define church hurt and exactly what that is. So we're going to talk about all that today. And uh to help me do that is uh my my co-host in there, Mr. Nick Smith. How's it going, brother?
SPEAKER_01Oh, pretty good. Howdy, howdy America.
SPEAKER_00So did you get a little bit triggered whenever I mentioned the word church hurt?
SPEAKER_01Oh uh memories flooded back in.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Uh it's something that that like the vast majority of the vast majority of us have have dealt with, um, but probably all in in extremely unique ways, which I think is really important as as to why how we define this, you know what I mean? Yeah. Um, because everybody's experiences vary, and there are some who would like to just lump all of those experiences in together, and I think that's uh I think that's inappropriate.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. I mean, uh I I know that I've talked about church hurt with many people, uh, because you'd be surprised at how many people have actually gone through it. Um, but my experience has been very unique from most.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, mine too. Um and as a matter of fact, this this subject matter is uh was suggested to us by one of our Patreon members. So to that Patreon member, thank you so much for your support. You know who you are. And um uh for those of you listening who would like to be able to weigh in on these conversations, you can also support us at Patreon. I'll do that plug right here. How about that? I'll do that plug here instead of at the end. Um you can you can follow us on patreon.com slash tofer brown uh and we kind of keep the conversation going there. Uh and so this this subject was brought uh to us by one of our patrons, and uh I think it's something that everybody in some way, shape, or form can resonate with. Uh because those of us who have been in the church for a long time, um, at some point or another we're going to experience, if not already experienced, some type of conflict uh within the church. Um there's so many examples out there of the different types of quote unquote church hurt. But Nick, I mean, in your in your opinion, like I don't like that word. I don't like that that term church hurt.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean me either, because who's actually hurting us? I mean, are we talking about the biblical church or are we talking about people within church?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and and it's it's people, right? Right. Um unless a an entire unless the first of all, it's it's important to differentiate uh between what the biblical church is and what our church body is, right? Right. So we have these two different the same word, two different meanings. Church, um, as it is referenced in the Bible, uh, we capitalize, Big C church. That means all of us who believe, right? All of us who are followers of Christ, we are all the church. Um that's the Big C church, Capital Church. Lowercase C church is your local church body. It's the place that you attend, it's the um the fellowship that you belong to. Um and so the terminology of church hurt to me is a little bit of a misnomer because uh usually it's definitely not big C church that is hurting you, and usually it's not little C church that is hurting you either. It's usually somebody or some people within that little C church that are that you're in conflict with. Um and there are so many examples we could get into. Um, you know, we kind of talked in our fake prophets um episode, we kind of talked about the abuse, some of the abuses from church leadership, and we'll get into that uh here a little here a little bit later. But that's one of the that's probably the um I would say that that that is one of the biggest examples um church leaders not taking their leadership responsibly. And then you also have um just squabbles within within the congregation that can also happen and also lead to some some hurt and some disappointment. Um and I want to be I just want to be up front and say, look, I've dealt with this. Um I have been in ministry for shoot over 20 years at this point. Yeah, a long time. Um and I've I've I've seen it all. I mean, I I have seen every everything that can happen in church, I've I've pretty much experienced it. But I've also experienced my own uh kind of hurt um from some of those experiences as well. And some of them have have dealt with uh leadership, and some of them have dealt with congregation members. I think we've all experienced this. Uh Nick, have you experienced this in in your past kind of growing up in church and some of that?
SPEAKER_01Oh, absolutely. I mean, uh to share some of my experiences um as a kid, probably I'd say 15, um, my whole family was kicked out of a church. Oh, wow. Um, which I mean, that that came from leadership down. And you know, like you said, uh I feel like that's very common, but it's it's also feels like the most egregious because it feels like a misuse of power.
SPEAKER_00Sure.
SPEAKER_01Um, and it especially when it happens to you at a young age. And now I don't know the full ins and outs. I don't think that as kids we were privy to that knowledge as to what actually happened and how it all went down.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But it definitely left a void in me and uh a fear of wanting to go into ministry and wanting to participate in my local church and be a part of that gathering of the saints because it leaves a stain on you and this fear of oh, well, what if I were to be kicked out again?
SPEAKER_00Wow, yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01You know?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Absolutely. I think that's a that's absolutely a real experience and a real fear. And I think that that you're you're not alone in that either. Um there there is certainly, there has certainly, and unfortunately will always be, in some cases, hopefully rare, um, misuse of authority. Um but I think we also need to be honest about the fact that God does uh grant authority to the leadership within the church.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00And we will reference some scripture uh to back that up and to um kind of look more clearly about what what God says about the leadership and authority. Um that kind of leads me to to this thought, and that is it's a double-sided coin. Um we have church leadership abusing or abusing their power. Um, but then there's another side of this coin uh that I've experienced as well. I've also experienced people coming into the church as lay people with an agenda and trying to upheave um the mission or the vision of that local church. Absolutely. Yeah, definitely seen that. Yeah, uh both of those things happen all the time. And so I think that when we're talking about church hurt, I think that you kind of you kind of gotta decide where you fall on the spectrum. Uh because if you if you've experienced zero church hurt, and we're using we're throwing this term around at this point, but if you've experienced zero of that, it probably means you haven't been in church for very long. Yeah. Because we've all kind of experienced it to some degree. Um, and more some more severe than others. Uh, but I think it's really important to figure out kind of where you land on the spectrum of this and what we can do to fix it. Um I think it's really important though, before we get into like the meat and potatoes of this discussion, the importance of church. Um now, growing up in the South, growing up in the Bible Belt, like most of us go to church when when whenever we're I say that it's the the statistics are actually pretty staggering, and I don't have them off the top of my head, so I won't say it. But um a lot of us, I should say, grew up in church. We grew up, our parents um were faithful in bringing us to church and and so on and so forth. But what is the importance um of the of the church? Um and I think that I have this issue. I think that I have an issue, I have a grievance to air out here. Air it out, baby. I I think I have an issue with folks who uh let me know if you if you've experienced this at all, who basically say, I don't need church, it's just me and Jesus. I got Jesus and that's all I need. Um I have an issue with that um because the scripture is pretty clear that we are we are the church and we are to meet specifically meet with one another. Right. Don't forsake the gathering of the saints. Exactly. And so I think in order to understand this, we need to understand the importance of church. So let's look at some scripture real quick. Um and you uh Nick, feel free to interject with some of the scripture that you have. I know you've been looking at some of it, but sure. Uh Hebrews 10, 24, and 25 uh reads, and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another and all the more as you see the day drawing near. And then we also have Acts 242. They div uh and this is this is the early church, this is the what you hear people reference to the Acts, the church in Acts. Um they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and fellowship and to the breaking of bread and the prayers. And then over in uh Acts 20, verse 7, on the first day of the week when we were gathered together to break bread. So it's clear to me in the scripture um that meeting together as the church is very important. Right.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the the Hebrews 10 24 is is one of them that I had on my list as well. Um, because we do need that edification from each other. Right. We we need that building up and that encouragement from other Christians to uh to strengthen our relationships. Um because that that helps us build as a whole. I love the old saying of uh when the water rises, all the ships go with it. Yeah, um or I'm I'm summarizing, it's something like that.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01Um, but when we all gather together and we're all learning the same thing and we're all going through the walk together, that edification, I don't know about you, but it definitely brings me closer to God and closes that void.
SPEAKER_00No doubt, because it's so important to have the perspective of other people. Um, you know, we we recently had Stephanie Bullock on our podcast to talk about some of the struggles that women go through. And it was very enlightening to me and eye-opening to me because that's a perspective that I just don't have. And it's a perspective that I needed to hear in order to fully understand what my my sister, my brothers and sisters are going through out there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So it's so important to have more than one perspective, and the only way to have more than one perspective is to shocker, have more than one person. You know, I mean, come on, guys. Uh so I don't like this, um I don't like this whole idea of I don't need the church. It's just me and Jesus. I, you know, I have I have uh it's great. That's great. I'm glad that you have Jesus. Uh I'm glad that you communicate regularly with the Lord. And you're right to some degree. Like he is, at the end of the day, he's going to be the one that stands alone, right? We're all going to pass away from this earth. But he gave us one another, right? That's an example of God's grace, is that he gave us community. Community exists because God gave that to us. And I don't think that he meant for us to do this Christian thing alone.
SPEAKER_01And uh, I'm not gonna discount that because I mean we definitely need a personal relationship with him, but I also look at it as your way back to the church. If you've been hurt by the church or you feel like you've been hurt by people in the church and you've taken a break, yeah, uh finding your way back is having that personal relationship with him because having that conviction of the Holy Spirit and that guiding will help you find the place that's right for you. That's exactly right.
SPEAKER_00And look, I mean, yes, we are the body of Christ, right? The big C church. Um let's look at it real quick. First Corinthians um twelve, twelve through fourteen. For just as the body is one and has many parts, it has many members, so it is with Christ, right? First Corinthians twelve, twenty-seven. Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And also Romans twelve, four through five. So we, though many, are one body in Christ and individually members uh one of another. So there exists this thing called the church, big C church, and we are those of us who follow Christ are all members of it. Does that mean that we all believe the exact same theology? Uh no. Absolutely not.
SPEAKER_01No, and I mean, as a great example, I mean, the church that we attend, uh, there's a lot of different theologies within that church.
SPEAKER_00Man, so so many people come from so many different backgrounds. We got Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians, we've got charismatics, Pentecostals. I mean, the whole spectrum we kind of make up at our church. Um, why is that important? Well, like you it it what it means is you don't have to agree theologically with everything that everybody in your church agrees with.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00It's about prioritizing and finding the common ground. So, what is the common ground? Well, hopefully it's Jesus.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_00Hopefully that's the unifier right there. Um, Stephanie made a great point uh in the um before we actually started recording the podcast. She said uh we were talking about this very thing, and she said, undoubtedly there are things that you and I disagree with uh with each other on theology, but we work so well together because we love Jesus the same. That's it, man. Yeah, that's what we're talking about.
SPEAKER_01And that core principle of love, that's that's what brings us together.
SPEAKER_00That's exactly right. And so what I've experienced, and um and maybe you have too, but uh Nick and the people listening, what I've experienced is man, people will will will take a theological disagreement, and they will either leave the church because of it, or they'll try and blow the blow the thing up on the way out. Yeah. You know. I mean, this this this happens so often, um, which I think is unfortunately indicative of people coming to church with an agenda. I've experienced this so much that you know, you'll have you'll have folks come in and they will um they'll be big givers, right? They'll they'll tithe a lot of money. Maybe they're maybe they're wealthy and and finite financially well off, and so they'll their tithes are greater in uh quantity, but they they think that that allows them a bigger say, right, right, uh in what happens. And unfortunately, that happens from time to time. Um and I've also seen uh on the flip side a you know, I've I've been in ministry before where the leadership is also um domineering and kind of being authoritarian uh rather than authoritative, right? If that makes sense. It does. Um so there's all levels of of church conflict. Uh and all that to say, like you kind of you kind of hit on it earlier, Nick. I was trying to get back around to your point of uh this is where discernment comes in. Uh like you don't have to be there, right? Like if you have a theological difference with some with your leadership, here's a good example. Theological difference with you're you're a lay person, you're just a congregate, and you come and and the pastor says something, you go, Oh boy, I really don't agree with that. And it's gonna it's an issue for me. Um there's a few ways to go about it. Uh there's a few healthy ways to go about that, and none of them include causing a scene and trying to divide the church over. Agreed. None of them are cause for that. Um, if that's you, I would suggest uh go first of all go to that pastor or that leader and say, look, man, I got an issue here. We need to dig into the scripture and we need to we need to see if we can come to a resolution here. Um, because it may just be that you it's a misunderstanding. And it may be something that you just uh theologically cannot um reconcile, and then you have to decide is this place for me or not.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think too, you also have to uh dig into your own heart and say, Am I just convicted? Sure. Did I get my feelings hurt because I've been convicted? And the pastor said something that hurt my feelings because I'm not living right.
SPEAKER_00Man, that that's that's a good word right there because I feel like a lot of this comes from that, right? Um, I feel like a lot of this comes from uh people just getting their feelings hurt. And what does the scripture say about our emotions? It says that they lie to us. Yep, right? It says our heart is deceitful, uh, aka our emotions. Our heart's gonna lie to us, man, because our flesh wants to rebel against the Father. Uh unfortunately, we're born into sin. And unfortunately, we're born, as Brother Bruce likes to say, we're born uh little wolf pups, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Uh and we're we're born kind of wanting to sin. And so um, a lot of times the truth of the scripture, the truth of the word, uh, it hurts because what it is is actually conviction. You hit you hit on that. A lot of times we don't like that, and so uh we want to cause a scene, we want to cause a divide. And I really think that that's just kind of indicative of a closed mind. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, just and and not to say that you need to be open-minded. We need to be open-minded uh about everything except for uh the common truth that that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and that nobody comes to the Father except through him. Um and I what do I mean by that? I don't mean like we need to be open-minded to the point to where that is uh compromised. Uh, but we need to be open to allowing the scripture to to teach us what we need to be taught rather than just going based off of the things that we've been taught by other human beings.
SPEAKER_01I mean, that's uh that's something that never really hit me until I got older. Um you know, as a kid, it's weird. You you you're driving down the road uh on your way to church, right? And you pass another church and it's not your denomination. Do you remember this feeling of like that's the enemy? They're right.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01Our church is right. Uh but when I got to experience going to uh walk to a Maus, uh, one of the first things, I think it was Carl Smith that said this. Um there's a lot of you that are all different denominations and have all different belief systems, but we're not worried about that. We're not gonna focus on that because the center of all of this is Jesus. We have one common ground, and that's Jesus Christ.
SPEAKER_00That's exactly that's it. Um and look, that's not that's not to say that if the pastor steps uh is on stage and he says something uh heretical, yeah, that's a different story. Like that's not to say that uh you can't question that. You can. Uh there's a there's a right way and a wrong way to go about it. Um and that that pastor needs to be held accountable for that, but it needs to be done with gentleness and respect. That's another conversation. Um But we need to understand two things. We need to understand that that God loves the church, um, that the church is very, very important to him, that Jesus actually gave himself up for the church, uh, it says in the scriptures, tells us plainly. Uh, and it's also important to know, number two, that he places leadership within the those church bodies. Yeah. That is absolutely scriptural. That's my biggest issue that I have with um, I think another part of the issue that I have with the people that say, well, it's just me and Jesus. Well, you also need that leadership. Right. You need uh fellowship with fellow believers, and you also need that leadership and guidance because there are people that God has equipped and put in those leadership positions to guide you. And scripture for that, because I know you're gonna ask, scripture for that, Ephesians 4, 11 through 13, Christ gave leaders to the church to equip the saints until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God. Leadership is of God.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And you know that that that goes in all different directions, too. Um, I remember when I was studying to be an elder, I saw a video clip of a guy saying that every elder needs an elder. Oh, yeah, your pastor needs an elder, and that's kind of how we operate at Center Point as well. Like, uh there's nobody that's just the end-all be-all at the top. Uh, you're answering to somebody and you're always seeking advice from somebody.
SPEAKER_00That's right.
SPEAKER_01And as an elder, if I have a question, I have somebody that I can go to and say, Hey, like, I I kind of don't know what I'm doing here. Like, yeah, what what can I do? What's what's biblical? How should I handle this situation?
SPEAKER_00Exactly right, man. Um that and that's accountability, right? So that's another thing. And I think that's another reason that people get mad and leave church is when um other believers attempt to hold them accountable to something that they are doing wrong. You you hit on it earlier. Oh, I got my I got my feelings hurt. So now I'm gonna I not only not only am I gonna leave, I'm gonna cause a s a panic as I do. Yeah. Um that's your flesh rebelling against you. Again, that's that's your flesh rebelling against God.
SPEAKER_01And that's such a sad thing to see, too. Uh I I've seen a a ton of churches just completely split 50-50.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Over just the smallest of things. And usually it's just somebody that got mad and uh spread rumors, what whatever they did to just completely split a church apart.
SPEAKER_00Oh, absolutely. I mean, let's be clear, dissension is not of God. The scriptures speak pretty plainly about that, about the dissenters, and that's not of God. If if you are in a church where you're in adamant disagreement, like week in and week out with what's being taught, dude, just find another church. Yeah, that's fine. That's completely fine. You can do that, but you don't have to blow the thing up on your way out. Um, but the church provides uh one of the advantages of church is that it it provides that accountability. And we got Colossians 3 16. It says, Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing, admonishing one another. Galatians 6, 1 and 2, bear one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ. James 5.16, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. That's that's good. That's a good little list of scriptures right there.
SPEAKER_00Man, I'm telling you, you you you've got to have that community. And if you're just uh I think there's there's two things you need to consider. If you are constantly running up against your community, you need to consider maybe there's something in your life that's not correct. Maybe there's something about your walk with God that needs to be tweaked. Or on the flip side, maybe you need to find a community that suits you a little bit better than the one that you're in. But again, we don't blow the doors off the building as we're as we're leaving.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think a good practice to uh to get used to that, because I mean there is a bit of a learning curve, especially if you're somebody not like us who didn't grow up in church. Right. It's kind of hard to accept that leadership. Find a one-on-one accountability partner.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's absolutely that's a great word, man, because you know, like like you and I are close in that way, you know, we kind of bear each other's burdens. We we can talk about things that maybe we wouldn't talk to a congregation about.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00So it's really important to have that one or two people or three people that you can just be absolutely real and open and honest about. No fear of judgment, you know. Uh, and bear one another's burdens. I mean, the the the scriptures tell us right there, bear one another's burdens by how? By confessing your sins to one another and being open to encouragement and admonishment. That's a big one right there. You gotta be willing to get called out if you're doing something wrong.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Uh and you can't just like defensiveness. I can speak to this because I'm a very defensive person, right? And my wife would tell you all the stories. Oh, here we go. My wife would tell you all the stories, right? Uh about my defensive nature. I have a defensive nature, and it's a rebellious nature, right? When I'm called to the carpet uh and I'm doing something wrong, and somebody comes to me and says, Hey, you're wrong, the first thing I want to do is fight. Fight back. That flesh in me wants to fight. No, I'm not wrong. You're wrong, and here's why. And look, brothers and sisters out there, let me just go ahead and tell you that if that is your reaction, your first reaction, you have a pride issue. You have a pride issue. Uh, if your first reaction is not introspection, then you have a pride issue.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I can say this because I have a pride issue, right? Um, but we got to get over it. The uh that it's a sin. Pride is a sin. Yeah, go read some Paul, kill that ego. Amen. Um, more scripture. Let's get to more scripture because we got to talk about abuse of leadership here with our last 10-15 minutes. More scripture. First Timothy 3 15, the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth. Man, that's so rich right there. Ephesians 2 19 and 22. You are no longer strangers, but fellow citizens, members of the household of God. Man, Jesus loves his church. Amen. Absolutely. He absolutely loves his church. Now, another thing that we run up against from time to time is um, well, the church, the church is people, it's not a building. Right? We run up uh I've I've been in so many conversations about this very specific thing right here, and and it's people who have experienced church hurt, and they just decide I don't, I don't, I'm not gonna do church the way that everybody else does church because that's not church. Going to a building is not church. And I've got a bit of a controversial take on this. Are you ready for this? You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. Church is not a building, it is a people. The question I have is what do you got against meeting in a building?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um I I don't really understand this argument. There's things that can be said for you know megachurches and things like that, the money and all of that, all that stuff. That's a that's another podcast. Um But we meet in a building because it's convenient, period. The early church the early church met in each other's homes. Now back then they were meeting in each other's homes uh because they were in fear of persecution. Right. Um, and it was just a they couldn't meet out in the open. They had to meet in private. Well, let me hit you with a zinger real quick. How do you feel about house churches? Yeah, I'm totally I'm totally fine with house churches. I I'm I'm okay with meeting in any way, shape, or form. I'm okay if you choose to have church outdoors somewhere. That's completely fine with me as long as you are uh encouraged, as long as you're not forsaking meeting with the saints, and as long as you are doing it in a community and encouraging and admonishing one another.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. What about the uh the lack of authority in a in a house church?
SPEAKER_00Well, I think you gotta have authority. Yeah. I think you gotta have uh spiritual leadership because he absolutely, Jesus absolutely appoints leaders to equip the church. That is scriptural. And there's a lot of people that rail against this because they've been hurt by their leadership, right? And we need to talk about that with our few remaining minutes, but I want to give you just yet another scripture because if we if we're gonna lean on anything, it's gonna be scripture on this podcast. But Jesus absolutely appoints leaders to the church, Ephesians 4, 11, and 12. He gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds, and teachers to equip the saints for the work of ministry for building up the bodies, for building up the body of Christ. Leaders absolutely leadership is absolutely designed by God, and they exist to equip and grow the believers. Um, and then of course we have all the qualifications for elders and pastors in in Timothy 3, 1 through 5. That's that's um further evidence and proof. But also, elders are meant to shepherd a flock. That's the whole design. First Peter 5, 1 through 3. Shepherd the flock of God that is among you, being examples to the flock. So if the question is, is it okay to have a house church? Yes, absolutely. Is it okay to not have a teacher or leadership? It is not okay, according to the scriptures. You need that. You're gonna have to have that in order to grow.
SPEAKER_01And you know, if if you want to have house church uh and there's no leadership there, uh maybe consider that God is calling you to be a leader.
SPEAKER_00Very, very possible. Very possible that God is calling you to ministry. Um, but be but be forewarned uh when you take on that calling, if that is you, if God is calling you to ministry, just understand that 99% chance he's not gonna call you to pastor a mega church. He's not gonna call you to make $120,000 a year. Uh in fact, he's gonna probably gonna call you to live below the poverty line, as a bunch of us do.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I was gonna say that's that's a lot of ministers.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. That's most ministers. Yeah. Let's let's be real, that's most ministers. Um, ministry is is uh it's dirty work. It's dirty work. Why? Because we're ministering to people and we're we're constantly having to deal and sift around and wait around in other people's stuff, and it's not pretty, but you know what it is? Um it is beneficial to the saints, aka you and me. It is beneficial to us as the church. We have to have that practical leadership in order to grow. We can't just be out there in the wind. Um, Jesus is our ultimate leader, God the Father, our ultimate leader, or He's our our cornerstone, but he has absolutely placed uh leadership within the church. But, and that brings us to our kind of our final deal, and and kind of the kind of the the core of what we're talking about here, those leaders that we're talking about, they must. And if you're out there and you are feeling called to ministry, hear this. You must preach sound doctrine. Absolutely. You must teach and preach sound doctrine, otherwise you're in danger of leading people astray.
SPEAKER_01And what does the Bible say about leading people astray?
SPEAKER_00It's not good. Yeah. What does Jesus say about that?
SPEAKER_01I think he says, uh, it'd be better for you to have a millstone tied around your neck and thrown into the sea. Right. Which means dead.
SPEAKER_00That's exactly right. And for the uh I know a little bit about the story of the person who suggested this episode, and that person uh experienced an abuse of leadership, and that's a real thing that happens. Um we we have so many. It's important to know that that's not the majority. That's not the majority of church leadership, but that is a thing that happens. There are there are leaders out there and and pastors and elders and ministers that the only reason that they're in ministry and in a position of uh of leadership is to dominate.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And to abuse sometimes. I mean, we we went over that in the uh the false prophets episode.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_01Where I mean, there's clearly people out there that are trying to be in ministry leadership in order to take advantage of people uh monetarily, sexually. Yep uh it's it's a world of abuse for them.
SPEAKER_00And for a lot of these uh these guys that commit these these atrocities, it's uh evidence of narcissism. You have a a ton of uh a ton of this stuff that we're talking about. Um if people have been hurt by church, have legitimately been hurt by church leadership, it is because of a narcissist in the pulpit, like nine times out of ten. And that narcissist is capable of all of those other atrocities that you just listed out. You know what I'm saying? They're only they're after money. Honestly, what they're after is power.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um those those people are leaders that are not appointed by God, but rather have been appointed by man, whether it be themselves or somebody else, that they have deceived in order to get that leadership uh for their own personal gain. And that's and that's what that is. And there are leaders out there that are like that, and they have absolutely hurt people. Uh, and I know, gosh, man, we could sit here for another hour and talk about all the people I know who this has happened to directly.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, there are so many people who have left the church and they will claim this that they got hurt by leadership. Really, all it was was that they got called out and they didn't like it. So they left and threw a hissy fit. On the flip side, there are people who have legitimately been hurt by pastors, leaders, elders, people in leadership positions who have legitimately hurt people. Um, and that's a real problem. I am of the personal belief, uh, and I don't have the scripture pulled up um right off the top of my head, but that it's in there somewhere, that those leaders are going to be held to a higher account. Um I have no, man, it's hard for me. It's hard for me to have a lot of grace for people in leadership that abuse their leadership. Uh, it's hard for me to have a lot of grace there because if you're somebody who's saying that you are called by God to do the work of ministry and you abuse that calling, then um you are guilty of leading these little children astray.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I think that's uh James 3:1. Uh it warns that uh not many should become teachers because they will be judged more strictly.
SPEAKER_00There it is. Exactly. That's exactly the one I was thinking of, Nick. Uh they will be judged more harshly. So you better take that look. If you if you are considering going into church leadership as a as a means of personal gain, you better adhere pretty closely to that scripture right there. Um, first of all, if that's your motivations, stop. Don't do that. Uh, because what awaits you in judgment is something you don't want to experience.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, just like Paul talks about in Romans uh one and two, right? Um knowing the truth and rejecting it, you don't want to be there. Um and then the scripture in James, you abuse that leadership, the the judgment is going to be more harsh on you. Um and there are there are guys right now, as as the words are coming out of my mouth right now who are abusing their leadership, and they are abusing their congregation in more ways than one. And um look, I have I have grace in my heart for all of God's creation. But you better repent. You better repent, you better turn to the true God. Uh you better you it it is of my opinion that these of course I don't know the hearts of men, but I cannot fathom someone abusing their some uh some pastor abusing their congregation and having a right relationship with Christ.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I don't think the truth of Christ is within them. And um if that's you, if you're if you're in uh a position of leadership in ministry and you are abusing your congregation, you need to get your heart right with Christ and you need to leave ministry forever and don't come back.
SPEAKER_01And what would you suggest to those that uh that are being hurt? Uh should they get out? Should they seek uh I mean not only get out, but maybe seek some help.
SPEAKER_00Oh, absolutely, man. First of all, remove yourself from the danger. If you are um if you're a part of a church or a ministry or something like that, and your leadership is is abusive, whether that be and there there's so many different types of abuse, right? You listed some. It could be sexual, it could be emotional, it could be um um occupational even. Like you you could have the threat of being fired over your head all the time, right? Yeah, that's abuse. You you don't have to be there. What I would suggest for you is to first, first and foremost, remove yourself from the danger. Get away from that. Um and then absolutely you need to you need to um seek spirit most cases mental, uh definitely spiritual. You need to seek spiritual help, spiritual counsel from some people that you can trust. And if you don't know who to trust, man, find a contact us. Heck. You know, email us. We'd be happy to point you in the direction um of somebody who can help you. There are people that we know uh that that have a close personal relationship with Jesus that are in leadership positions that would love nothing more than to um point you towards the hope that they have and show you how to get there. Um that would love nothing more than to wrap their arms around you and say, look, um whoever did that to you, that was not Jesus, and that was not the church, that was a man or a woman of flesh and blood who have who are deceived. Uh let's let's call it what it is, deceived.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Both of those things are real, in my opinion. I I believe that church hurt is the wrong word. I believe it's um it's people hurt, people being hurt by people. What's that old saying, Nick? Uh hurt people, hurt people. That's the one. I think that's that's more true of what's going on here. Um hurt people, hurt people, deceived people hurt people. Um look, the enemy is out to to blow up all the things of God. He's out to he wants to divide the church. And he sometimes he uses this as an excuse to do that. Um and sometimes he'll use us. To divide the church because we can't get over our own flesh and blood. And then sometimes he uses false leaders to abuse God's creation. Both of those are equally as tragic, and they do nothing to uh push forward the cause of Christ in in unity and fellowship. They do nothing to help those situations.
SPEAKER_01That's right. The the enemy comes to steal, kill, and destroy, and he's not just trying to do that to you. He's trying to do that to the church as a whole.
SPEAKER_00That's right, because the church is what's going to push this gospel message forward. Well, like we're the ones who have to carry this banner. Yeah, you can carry it alone. Um, and you can be the light of Christ personally. We're all called to do that. We're all called to be disciples and carry out the Great Commission. But whenever you get your rear end handed to you out there, which is gonna happen sometimes, you need somebody to encourage you and help you along the way. Um, we don't have to shoulder these things alone. We can do it together. And that's why the church exists, man. That's that's why we meet together. Um, we're supposed to encourage one another.
SPEAKER_01And I'm I'm glad you brought up the Great Commission because I mean, being part of a church is a great way to get plugged into discipleship programs. There's so many lost people that are coming to church to try to find something and they don't know what they're looking for. And guess what? You're there to stand in that gap to introduce them to Jesus.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely correct. Absolutely right, man. Uh, if we we are we are called to be disciples and disciple makers, period. And that's what we're trying to do. If you're out there and you're saying to yourself, or you're saying to me, uh, but Topher, you don't understand my circumstances. Uh you don't understand what I went through. You're absolutely right. But let me encourage you that not all churches are that church. Not all churches are the not all churches are the same. Not all little see churches are the same. And there's there's a congregation, there's a fellowship out there that is for you. And you need to do your due diligence to find that fellowship because it's very important. It's very important that we fellowship with one another, that we don't forsake meeting together. Uh, because when we're out there, if we're alone out there, something happens to us, there's nobody to answer the call. Yeah. You need your brothers and you need your sisters in Christ. We are designed to live in community.
SPEAKER_01And don't give up the search so easy. Just because you go to a church and uh immediately you're offended, maybe that's not the right church for you. Right. Keep looking. There's, I mean, especially if you're in the Bible belt like we are, there's one on every corner with a different demographic and people who can connect to your situation. Keep looking. Don't give up on the first one.
SPEAKER_00And here's another thing I just I just thought of. If uh if if you keep going to churches and all you can do is think to raise concerns, and the all the churches that you go to keep blowing up, maybe consider that you're the problem.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Maybe look inside. Look inward.
SPEAKER_00Look inward and uh maybe see if the if the Lord's trying to correct you a little bit. Um, you know, you don't need to we don't have to always have conflict in order to exist. Uh God wants us to exist in harmony with one another, especially those of us who are uh the bride of Christ, which is the church.
SPEAKER_01And I can say that from experience. I've I've definitely left some churches and uh left with a stink and probably bad mouth quite a few people in the church on my way out. None of us are uh are free from that. No, we're all capable of it. We just have to check ourselves.
SPEAKER_00I've done the same thing, man. You know, uh, and it's just our fallen nature. We just uh we want to be right all the time, and um and sometimes we are legitimately done wrong. But what are we supposed to what is what does Jesus want us to do, man? Does he want us to um wallow in that? He wants us to love and forgive. Come on, man, preach. He wants us to turn it on the cheek, you know. That's right. Um that that doesn't mean to st that you need to stay in a place where you're being abused, that's not what that means. Um that means that we are still to love and forgive and reconcile when we can. Um But the main thing is um find that community because that community does exist. And I know that the the the the patron member, the Patreon member who brought this um this topic to us today, they belong to a uh a healthy church congregation now, and that's so cool to me that they they could experience all the things that they experience, but yet still um know and trust that their relationship with Jesus is is intact, and then go find a community of like-minded believers. And that's that's what we're encouraging for today, I think. Absolutely. Um but again, I want to say that if if you if you're out there and you have legitimately been hurt um by your experiences with leadership or other congregational members, um, we're not diminishing that in any way. Um what you experienced was real, and uh we we just encourage you to um first seek the Lord. Uh He will give you the guidance through his word to get through what you're going through, and then seek um the fellowship of like-minded believers who can help you through that that process. And um, you just might find that you you just possibly could find that at Center Point Church if you ever find yourself in Brookhaven, Mississippi. Amen. We'd love to take you, we'd love to minister to you and help you along your way. We'd love to love on you. That's right. Well, I think that's a pretty good place to stop off. I feel like we could talk about this all day long. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I got I got thoughts rolling around all over my brain. Yeah, man. There's so many instances of this um that take place all over the place all the time. So maybe we'll come back with a part two um because I'm sure that plenty of people will have plenty to say about what we just said.
SPEAKER_01I mean, it'd be fun to find a guest that's uh and maybe that would be that Patreon member to come in and speak on their experience.
SPEAKER_00Maybe so. Maybe so. We'll have to see if they're if they're willing to do so. But um, but I'm sure that there'll be comments. Uh I'm sure there'll be people that disagree with us wholeheartedly with fervor and vigor. Uh, and I'm sure there are people who will agree with us, but I just want to say that both of those things are fine. We're we're not perfect and we're not the authority on these matters. We're just speaking from our own personal experience here. Right. And so we all have our experiences. Uh, but well, here's one thing I know for sure: the Lord is good. Jesus saves. Amen. He saves us not only from an eternity uh separated from him, but he saves us from those circumstances. Uh, it's called sanctification. And so that's my encouragement for all of you guys out there. And I just want to thank you uh for listening and being part of this podcast. And uh want to thank my co-host in there, Mr. Nick Smith. Love you, bro.
SPEAKER_01Love you too, brother. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00And we will see you guys next time. God bless you. Take care of one another, and uh thank you for your support. See ya.