The Topher Brown Show
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The Topher Brown Show
Bridging The Gap
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This week we speak with Cameron Tate about Bridging The Gap and the churches responsibility in these trying times.
It's clear to me that society is divided now more than probably ever before. And even within the church, there are forces that seek to pull us apart and separate us and divide us. But I wonder what our role is as the church right now in the midst of all of this uncertainty and chaos. Let's discuss that. This is the Topher Brown Show. We appreciate you tuning in and listening wherever you're listening from, watching wherever you're watching from. It's going to be a great show today. We've got an excellent guest on the on the program today, and we'll get to that in just a second. We're going to talk about some stuff that's insanely relevant to what's going on in our world right now, especially us as believers, especially us as the church, the struggles that we face, what our role is supposed to be in all of this that's going on around us. And we're going to talk about all that today and probably even a lot more than that. But before we do that, got to send it over to my co-host, Mr. Nick Smith. What's going on, brother?
SPEAKER_00Oh, nothing much, brother. Blessed and highly favored.
SPEAKER_01Amen to that. No howdy howdy America. I mean, I like the blessed and highly favored, but I mean, come on, dude. Howdy, howdy America. I knew. I knew you had to you had to do it. Even though some of these uh viewers and listeners might not be American, we should probably acknowledge that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I've noticed that we've got some from Germany, a few others around the world. Welcome, welcome world.
SPEAKER_01There you go. Welcome, welcome, world. I like that even better. What's been going on in your world, brother? It's been a few days since we recorded our last show.
SPEAKER_00Oh man, it's it's springtime. We're cutting grass, we're fishing. Uh dude, that's that's about it.
SPEAKER_01That's like all all it takes up our entire time these days. I was half expecting you say hunting, fishing, and loving every day.
SPEAKER_00But uh well, I used it up last week. Oh, yeah. Well, we I got I gotta switch it up from time to time.
SPEAKER_01We'll let it slide. We'll let it slide. Well, as we kind of brought up in our intro, um, you know, things are nuts in the world right now. Absolutely nuts. Uh somebody I heard somebody say the other day, like a whole year's worth of news cycle uh happens in a week now. So we get a year's worth of news in a week from week to week. It's kind of it's kind of insane. No doubt, no doubt. And you know, if it's if it's not stuff here within we got enough going on in the in the states, and then I don't know if y'all know this, there's a war going on. So so there's stuff happening all over the world. It just kind of like is further proof to me that the that the the Lord's on his way back soon, and we can actually only pray for that and hope for that, you know. We say, you know, eve even so come, Jesus. But uh today I think we gotta I think we gotta get into something um that needs to be talked about, quite honestly, and that is what is the the church's role in the midst of all this? Because even in all of this division in society, you know, we're divided along political lines and ideological lines and all that stuff. That's what this that's what the world wants us to do. They want us to be divided in that way. But those things are even trying to creep into the church. Nick, wouldn't you agree with that that we've seen things even try and creep into the church and split us apart?
SPEAKER_00Oh, absolutely. I mean the court of public opinion has even moved into the church.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly, man. And that's uh that's a huge thing right there. Like we we immediately draw upon our own conclusions, draw upon our own wisdom and our own make our own assumptions even within the church.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. It's hard to tell the difference between uh uh discernment and distraction. How do you navigate the two?
SPEAKER_01Well, that's what that's what we're gonna talk about today, right? How do we navigate all that stuff? What are we supposed to be doing? Uh to help us do that, we've got a guest in the studio today. This is my very good friend, this is Cameron Tate. Hey, brother, welcome to the Primary. Hey, glad to be here, guys. Thanks for having me. Thank you so much for making the drive. I know you came down from Jackson to to come hang out with us out here in the sticks, and we appreciate that. Um, before we jump into it, just tell me a little bit about yourself. Like what do you do? What's what's your ministry all about? What you know, tell us a little bit about yourself.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, like I said, honored to be here, brother. Thanks for asking me to be part. So yeah, uh, so the ministry I do is called Bridging the Gap Outreach Ministries, uh, which is so amazing. You talk about the role of the church. That's kind of what our ministry focuses on is uh bringing the church together through coalitions. Um we now have we're working on an eighth one, and so uh just these are pastors and and leaders around our city working together. We've got a coalition over in Brandon, and so we just call these churches together and just say, hey, let's be the bride of Christ and let's go be evangelistic in our neighborhood. Um so bridging the gap will be eight in September. I can't believe it. That's awesome. Um and we just look forward to 80 more years if the Lord don't return. That's right. And uh, but as you said, we got a role and we're trying to fulfill that through the ministry.
SPEAKER_01Amen, man. It's it's it's uh, you know, not spoiler alert, it's the whole reason I called you to be on the on this particular uh topic because I I figured, you know, your your perspective from what you've gleaned from those years of ministry doing exactly what we're talking about today, your perspective would be very valuable. Um, man, it's it's so funny that we're talking about this because I just taught a lesson last night on Ephesians 4, 1 through 6. And Paul is is talking all about unity within the church. Yeah. Um, and not to give everything away right at the outset of this deal, but I mean that's kind of where we're going with this. Like if if we can't unify as the church, we're not gonna be effective. Yeah. Um, and I think that that that's probably at at its core, that's the answer, but you know, kind of how do we get there? So uh you guys work together with different churches, is that right? I mean, you you you kind of spent you've come and and preached several times at our church down in Brookhaven, and it's always like a the a packed attended event whenever whenever you come down. You got you got tons of of uh fans down in Brookhaven, Mississippi. I love it, which is awesome, and we love it every time you come. So, what's your perspective um uh on this particular topic? I mean, we got people, uh you can't get on social media these days without trying without trying to be indoctrinated into one side or the other, or this side or that side. Yeah. And what I'm what I'm um discovering recently is that Christianity is trending now. Yeah. Um, which is a good thing and a bad thing, right? I can remember the days when Christianity was not cool. Right. Right? That's no doubt.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, kind of the gold the golden age of youth ministry and all that stuff where, you know, crit Christians were cheesy and uh, you know, all the all the stuff we were doing. It just wasn't cool to be a Christian because it was so counter-cultural. Yeah, right. But now there's this there's been this giant resurgence uh with with people who are coming to the faith, which I think could be a which obviously is a very good thing if it's true, if it's real.
SPEAKER_02That's yeah, that's key.
SPEAKER_01If if it's an actual revival, which I think we're on the press precipice of it. Think so. I think we're on the cusp of it. But yeah, what I'm seeing in the culture right now is um people who just a short just a just a minute ago weren't Christians, uh influencers weren't Christians. Now they are, yeah, and now they're influencing us again, but from a different place in a different perspective. Yeah, and it gets really confusing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, I'm not trying to to call anybody the carper or anything like that, but I mean you got your Tucker Carlsons and your uh Nick Fuentes types, and we've talked about them on the podcast before, about how you know they're kind of it seems to me, seems to me, this is my this is the my uh the opinion according to Tover Brown. It seems to me that these these guys are all of a sudden coming out and they're Christian now, and they are trying to pull you over into their ideals and their opinions, but now they're coming after the Christian culture in that way. Now, again, I I want to say that like I don't know the hearts of men. Right. I I I hope and pray that these guys really are sure followers of Christ, but how you just don't know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um so anyway, all that's say uh that Christianity is like trending at this point. Yeah. Um, but how do you separate like truth from just like people trying to pull you in?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. Well, you know, I think Nick said something at the beginning of this, and I thought it was so profound, and it made me think um he said um discernment of distraction. I believe that's what he said. And the truth of the matter is this um anytime there's a move of God happening, you mentioned we're on the we're on the presp of a revival. We see it, it's happening all over this country. There there is a pour out of the spirit of God, which told for he promised that would happen as we get close to the end. He said, In the last day I'm gonna pour out my spirit on all flesh. So that's it's a good thing. That's what God is doing. What you also have at the same time is this uh the enemy comes to mimic things, right? And can make things that are of God seem real. And so that Jesus tells us in scripture, he says, you watch out for the wolves in cheap clothing. So the problem we have today is everybody looks the same. But I believe there's a level of discernment that has to happen to you test the spirit. You don't just look at what a person says. Right. For instance, I'm a Christian, I'm a well, prove it, right? And and the way you prove it is by your fruit. So I would say, even for, and I mean this in love, I would say even for people who are claiming it now, let's just wait a while, right, and see what a true fruit is because you know you can't fake it only for so long. And and and I think where we are in the world today is, I mean, if you're not really saved, I think there's such a a pressure that's going to come that it's going to reveal where our anchor really is. Um, but you're right, it is trendy. And I think because God is moving, and it's easy for people to hop on the Christian bandwagon because it's popular right now. I mean, we're seeing it. So I think there's a there's another piece of, okay, people are seeing, well, there's a resurgence, God is being talked about, so they feel like I can just jump on that bandwagon. But it in this season, it's gonna take a high level of discernment to know. And and again, Jesus doesn't tell us to test what people say. Right. He said, test the spirit. And I think the church has to begin to walk in a greater discernment, and the spirit of God will show you that, will show me the motive behind a person. So I'm looking at, I'm looking at life, so I'm looking at fruit. I'm looking at what happens when the cameras are off. To me, that's the true indication of whether or not a person is truly following Jesus. So that's that's my answer in short.
SPEAKER_01Amen, man. I mean, uh, what's fit what is uh old Philip Anthony Mitchell? What's he saying? We we check it for fruit. That's right. Uh man, it's like uh all of a sudden, you know, obviously that's scriptural, but all of a sudden we all got permission to go. Oh yeah, we are. That's right. We are checking for fruit. Absolutely. Uh Tucker Mato, uh, of course, you know, the the the big controversy on Easter was the president tweeted out a deal about Iran, and you know, I'm not gonna repeat anything, anything you said because it's inappropriate, but um, you know, which I didn't didn't like that. Like that's that was an immoral thing to do uh to say on Easter. Um but you know, then then our our good friend Tucker Carlson goes on the internet and says, you know, rails against that, pushes back against that real hard, uh drops a lot of things like, you know, who do you think you are, and so on and so forth, and says, now we as Christians, we can't support that. And that that flips something for me. I was like, well, hold on now. Now you're identifying with us. You're trying to, you're trying to, you're trying to uh now obviously like we as Christians aren't gonna support something that's immoral. Right. We should not. Right. Uh but don't be so quick to throw the we word in there, Tucker.
SPEAKER_03You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um, because it seems to me that these these social media influencers, these podcasters and things like that, who are now on the Christian bandwagon, yeah, are using Christianity as a way to bring people over into the ideological thinking.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, I I think I think you're exactly right. And this is why we have to have discernment because it uh again, it's just like the enemy who will lure you in, right? And and and here's the truth, Tolfer. The enemy doesn't necessarily come looking like the enemy.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02If he came looking like the enemy, we could begin. Angel of light. You understand what I'm saying? So, like, you know, think about our own temptations in life. That the devil's not tempting us with things that we don't struggle with, right? You know, so he's dangling things in front of us that look like gold, all to pull us in. Samson knows all about this, right? And and so, of course, reading the Bible. We all know Delilah ain't she ain't no good, right? But he's so distracted by what is appealing to his flesh, he can't let go. And and so what happens? She finds the secret, she cuts his hair, oh okay, well, that's just your strength is there. And and ultimately, she's not in it for his good. But again, he doesn't, he's not paying attention to that because he's just looking at, and I think that's what the world is today. They're not really the people get excited, all they're they're professing Christ. Right. But you're not, but hey, look, you're not really having discernment to know are they really or are they drawing you in? And so again, where the spirit of God is trying to draw people, so is the enemy. But but but he'll but he'll do it in a way that looks like they're a part of us. Yes, you know what I'm saying? And so that's why we have to be so careful and have discernment to say, okay, Spirit of God, beyond the surface, beyond the hype or the emotion, show me the reality in the heart. And I'm I'm confident the Spirit of God will do that. But there is a great deception, right? And so the enemy's not coming at us with with with horns, right? Uh he's he's coming at us with things that seem good, masquerades himself as angel light, things that seem because he he knows what it took of people's emotions right now. And and truth of the matter is, Topher, people people are looking for the truth right now. No doubt about it. They are hungry because they they know there's they they they know they need an anchor, and they see it's not the things of the world because things are fading. Their money's fading, they see politics ain't the answer. They, I mean, they see their jobs. I mean, everything's uncertain because the truth of the matter is your bank account can be full today and empty tomorrow. Gas prices are up, inflation's happening, gas, I mean, all kinds of things are happening. So people are people are wanting truth. And so, and even when you you think about I'm not against AI, but you think about artificial intelligence, right? And so here's the enemy again bringing things that are artificial that look real. So I think these are the days that the church needs to have more discernment and don't just follow people and hop behind it because of what people are saying. No, follow them because you know they have a personal, intimate relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. Tova, that's one thing I love about you is that you're the same man on this podcast as you are with your family and on church on Sundays. I've I've watched you, you know, and I think that's that's a big part of it. So let us not be deceived in this hour and just go for things because it's popular. The world's always trendy, right? I mean, there's always a trend, and we have to be careful that we don't hop on the the the trend of Christianity without actually looking to see is it Jesus?
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Because I mean, if we look back at the early church, it's all countercultural, right? Yeah, it's all against the grain.
SPEAKER_02That's right.
SPEAKER_01I mean, these folks were meeting in their homes because they were in fear of being murdered for their faith. Uh and please you two don't ban us for me saying that. Sorry. Uh not sorry, not sorry. Uh, but that's what was happening. Yeah. And we have this can't this uh Christianity is meant to be countercultural. I don't think that that I don't think that that means that we need to go out and like um you know dress in sackclaws and you know pour ashes on our head all the time. Uh we're not in those days anymore. But um we are meant to be different with the scripture says that we are a set-aside people, set apart people. That's right. We're uh peculiar people, is what it says. Right. Um, and so the minute that Christianity is like the trend, when Christianity or Jesus is trending on Twitter, I'm like, uh-oh, something's yeah, something's weird.
SPEAKER_02That's exactly right. Something's going on.
SPEAKER_01Either something's amazing is about to happen, which I I do believe that. Right. Or as we know from Scripture that the enemy will use Scripture to twist and deceive. He'll twist.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01He'll use it in the way by in the way of twisting and to deceive. Yeah. Um, and so I think there's a ton of that going on. But I also you you said that you know there's a there's a a move of God happening right now. That's true. Absolutely, absolutely true. And what what gives me some hope, um, aside from the hope that I have in Jesus Christ, obviously, but what gives me some hope for our society is that Gen Z, it's happening in Gen Z. No doubt. It's happening in Gen Z. Now what what I in my experience and in talking with Gen Z folks and just kind of seeing where the culture's moving, Gen Z is tired of the show.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh we in in the church we've made it about uh you know lights, camera action, right? Right. It's it's a show. Right. It's a variety show sometimes. Um and we're guilty of that. Yeah. And Gen Z sees right through that. They do.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01They see right through it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And they've decided we don't want that anymore. That's right.
SPEAKER_02That's right.
SPEAKER_01Uh we're interested in the unapologetic truth. Yeah. Unfiltered. Yeah. Don't beat around the bush. Don't candy coat it. We want truth. And I think that's why we're seeing an uptick in a lot of um people that are running to the Catholic Church. Yeah. People that are running to a lot of um institutionalized Christianity that has a lot of structure. Yeah. Because Gen Z is missing that structure. Yeah. Somebody asked me the other day, um, well, what about all the issues with the Catholic Church? And I'm like, well, I'd rather them go to the Catholic Church than, you know, you name it other place for structure and order. Yeah. Um, I've got my own issues with the Catholic Church, but I mean, I think at the end of the day, there are a lot of people in the Catholic faith that are absolute born-again believers. Yeah. So there's a lot going on right now around us, people trying to infiltrate the church, people trying to divide the church. There's dissension like never before within the church. Um, and then of course we got wars going on. We got stuff going on all all across our country, we got stuff going on across the world. What is the stance? I guess we need to take a look back and say, what has the stance been? Uh, what has the church's stance been in the past on this kind of stuff? Wow. What where should where should we be standing right now? Um my opinion, you know, you you touched on it a little bit a second ago. Um, you've got people, people, people, people trying to tell you, trying to pull you, trying to manipulate you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But where do we derive our source of truth from?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh, because we're talking about discernment, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So if we can't discern, if if we are confused, yeah, where should we be headed? Wow. Yeah. In that in that way. Absolutely. Um I think the truth of the word of God is the answer. But let's let's expand on that a little bit.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. No, I love that. You you know, I I'm I'm sitting here thinking about um and what you've said, it's just so loaded, and I think my. I didn't mean to put you on the spot. No, no, no. It's it's it's all good. I mean, and I want to start off by saying this that in an hour where there is so much deception, as you've said it, as so much of the world getting darker, and and we see the enemy getting bold in his attempt to divide the body of Christ. I think, I think even something greater than division, what we're seeing is confusion. We are seeing division, no doubt. We're seeing even the body of Christ, a lot of them not knowing what side they fall on. Right. And so trying to figure out uh questioning the truth of scripture, being being deceived by what culture's teaching us. You'd be amazed at how many churches, Tophir, and you know this, are not even preaching the authentic word of God anymore. Right. And that's dangerous. So we do have an issue of division we've been having, and I'm gonna try to answer all those questions because I want to go back to that, but I do want to I want to go down this rabbit trail. Go ahead. Is what is happening now is we do have division, but there's there's even a sense of of the word of God, you know, not even seeing this just morally right anymore. That's right. That is that it's almost like, okay, we we we don't believe in this in the teachings of scripture and people are not even preaching it. And I think and I think that's becomes dangerous. So um, so I think that it it is an we have a need for the true church of the Lord Jesus Christ to rise up in this hour. Like and you mentioned the Gen Z generation. We we need that truth. They're searching for that because there is so much fake out there, and I think anytime we see the enemy raising up with things that are not true, to me, it ought to provoke the church. I mean, I think that's one stance we ought to be having right now is to say, and it and like you said, it doesn't mean that I'm I'm I'm hating people and I'm beating people up. What it does mean is I'm proclaiming the truth of the word of God because Jesus said you should know the truth and truth to set you free. And we need truth today. Um, and so you know, where the church has been, man, we I I I honestly think a part of what's happening in the world is our fault. And we ought to take ownership of that. You know, we we we we haven't we haven't stood in the word of God ourselves, we haven't prayed, but we haven't even done the simplest the simple thing that Jesus asked us to do, which is to come down. Together and unite. And so a part of the issues of the world, really, I think, honestly, is the breakdown of the church. And I think what what the church needs to do honestly and and and from a genuine place is repent and say, Father, forgive us for dropping the ball. We talk about the church and and over the years how there's been such a decline. And you mentioned it, Top for one, is because we we really moved away from kingdom into being our own kingdom. We got into celebrity Christianity and we got into all this stuff. And and but we miss an authentic move of the Spirit of God. And I see God trying to bring that back. And my question is right now to the church, are we gonna miss this hour of visitation that God has given us? Um, you know, I mean, he he's he I he's in our midst right now, and I think he's saying to the church, hey, let's get realigned, because obviously people are hungry. I mean, we Gen Z's in it, they're hungry for the truth. And I'm thinking, this is a wide open door to the harvest, man. Let's not miss this.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02But again, the the issue is, and the devil's job is to keep us divided and to keep us asleep, right? To not preach the truth, to stay against one another. And I always say this the church is the hope of the world. I'll believe that to the day I die, Tophir. I would die believing that truth. Uh, and I don't believe that the world can see any real healing without the church first being healed. It is our job to come together and unify, and unity is not uniformity. The problem with that comes with unity, Tophir, is the reason why it's so hard for us to do it, because we all got a flesh.
SPEAKER_03That's right.
SPEAKER_02We have preferences, we have things we like and don't like, and and that's all fine and dandy, but my preference should never be the reason I can't walk with a brother or sister in Christ. I ought to be able to lay that down. I mean, the truth of the matter is we all don't like the same food, right? But I'm not beating you up because you go to one restaurant over what I go to. It the the the matter it the truth of the matter is this is that man, we're all eating the same word. We're dining on the same savior. And I'm going, hey, uh, and and and here's here's another truth, Tover. Until we get that right, our witness can't even be as effective in the earth. And so, hey, Jesus doesn't say in John 17, he doesn't say, hey, your preaching is gonna win the world, even though we need preachers, your conferences, your your whatever you got, books, podcasts, all that, and it's all great, and we need it all. But Jesus said, if you really want to reach the world, he said, if if if they're gonna believe that my father sent me, it's gonna be by your love for one another. And and here's what the devil wants He would love for us to keep having great conferences and good sermons and good this and that. He loves all that stuff. But what he's gonna fight the most is our unity. That's exactly because there's a blessing on that unity that happens in the world that we can own that the world can only know Christ through that. And so that's the mess to the church. It's like, hey man, like keep preaching, yes, you know, keep proclaiming the gospel, keep having great Sunday morning service, do all of that. But man, like let's be intentional with the thing that Jesus asked us to do because in John 17, 22, he said, I've given them my glory. I mean, there's a glory on the bride that we have to be won. And I just think it's time for us to operate in that.
SPEAKER_01Man, you nailed every question that I had. You nailed them all. That I I could not agree more with what you said, and I I think that, you know, and Nick, you you can attest to this. Uh chime in a little bit here on this because I know you got some experience with it. I heard uh somebody say the other day, we got a running joke on this podcast that we never know who to attribute quotes and stuff to, and I still don't. But uh I heard somebody say the other day that they feel in their spirit, and I agree with it, that that there is a genuine move of God happening right now to call his children back to him.
SPEAKER_02No doubt.
SPEAKER_01To refocus and re uh reprioritize ourselves back around and that's a genuine thing that I've been feeling. I know my brother in there has been feeling. Yeah. Um that that the Lord is is calling his church back to him.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Absolutely. Well, there's there's such an uptick in Christian content online, and I think that people are digging into that a lot. But I think that one of the problems that we're seeing with that, and and you're right, people are getting pushed and pulled uh from each direction, but I feel like getting back into your local church is one of the answers. We're leaning so much on podcasts, and call me the hypocrite, we're on a podcast right now, but we're seeing so much, so many people deserting the church to go out on their own. Yep. And all they're doing is trading a higher authority for their own. Wow. They're relying on themselves. And when we get away from ourselves and get back into that church and let iron sharpen iron, I believe that's where we start to get back on track.
SPEAKER_01We could just go ahead and preach it in there, bro. That's all right that's profound. I love that. All right, Nick out. I'm I'm gone. I love it, man. You're out, you you hit you hit it on the head. That's exactly what it is, man. And we're living in a time, what a time to be alive, right? Yeah. We're living in a time right now where um our our attention spans are so short. And we need, you know, we we instead of a an hour-long podcast or a 30-minute sermon or whatever it is, we need a 30-second reel or a 30-second TikTok or a short to tell us what we what to to clue us in as to what theology we even believe. It's so silly, man.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and I agree with my brother in there 100%. Like we've we've gotten away from all the scriptures that tell us not to forsake meeting with the saints. No doubt. Because he's absolutely right, that iron does sharpen iron. Absolutely. I can't tell you in the 10 years that I've been at our local church the leaps and bounds that I have grown in the Lord just because I got godly brothers and sisters that are willing to hold my feet to the fire.
SPEAKER_02That's good, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And saying, look, uh hey, you asked for accountability. You're gonna get it.
SPEAKER_02Wow, that's good.
SPEAKER_01And we and we have to have that accountability as church. I I agree with you because we have dropped the ball.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I think that we have decided somewhere along the way, probably in the 90s, that the church, that coming to church was our our our greatest evangelical tool. Absolutely incorrect, man. Wow. Jesus says in Matthew and the Great Commission, he says, you go to the four. Yeah. Not the church.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_01You are the church, right? You go. You go and baptize all nations in the uh in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh and by the way, I'll be with you even to the end of the age. Uh I want to take a second, quick second, to read, just let's just read Ephesians 4, 1 through 6, because it's so absolutely profound as to what we're talking about right here. So check this out. This is Paul writing his letter to the Ephesians. I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the spirit and the bond of peace. There is one body, there is one spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who was over all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. Um I went a little bit further. I went on down into seven. I love that. That's fine. But that's what we're talking about, man. Uh, what is what is gonna what is gonna unify us the most? Peace. Yeah. Wow. The bond of peace. That's it. Uh it says right there, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit, the Holy Spirit. So we have we already have unity within the Holy Spirit. That's it. That's it. But the thing that bonds us together is peace. Peace. I love that. And what what I think is so impactful about that scripture is nowhere in there does he say that you're never gonna have disagreements. That's right. You're never gonna have conflicts. That's right. Uh you're never gonna have dissension. Unfortunately, it's there. Unfortunately, it happens from time to time. But peace does not mean no conflict. That's right. Uh peace does not mean no disagreements. Yeah, it means being able to handle those disagreements, to love one another despite those disagreements. Oh, I love that. That's what the that's what that that bond of peace, that's the glue that's gonna hold the church together right now.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no doubt about it. I believe in that in that passage too, and you may have read it, so forgive me if I missed it, but I think he says, Paul says, to make every effort. Um, and I think the reality of it is is that unity is something we have to work at. It's not automatic. Yes. And and and and first of all, I think people have to realize it is an expectation for us because we have the Holy Spirit. Right. So if that's the only reason, then that ought to be another reason. Exactly. Sometimes I think we need another reason. It's like, hey, the spirit of God is reason enough, right? You know what I'm saying? It's like we don't have to do all this extra stuff. I mean, Tover, let's be honest, man. Sometimes I feel like here's another conference on unity. I mean, come on now. Like, how many do we need? I I I'm hey, I'm for hey man, I love conference, don't get me wrong. But I'm like, golly, how many times are we gonna talk about it when Paul said you make an effort? So that means go out of your way to do it. Exactly. Right? Because we keep hearing about it. We can sit through a three-day conference and talk about it and still leave there and have a whoop to do time and slap hands and then do nothing. And so the reality of it is there has to be an intentionality when it comes to unity. Because here's the truth, Topher. We have conferences all the time, and you can bring churches and pastors together, and they'll still walk out and have nothing to do with each other. Absolutely right. And I'm going, so we've wasted our time and we've wasted the Holy Spirit's time, right? Let's be honest about that. And so I'm just going, hey, I tell people, look, this what the reason I unite with a person, I don't unite with them because of the church they go to. I don't unite with them because of who they vote for. I don't unite for with them because of what they eat, where they live. I unite with them because of the Lord Jesus Christ. And in my uniting with people, guess what? They might vote different than I do, they may think different, they may eat different. None of that, that's all secondary as it comes to the cross. And that's what the church has to understand that all that other stuff is secondary. That's right. And we have had a major issue with majoring over the minor. I get so weary and tired when it's just like, well, we don't like that church because they have a worse team in this church over here where it's quiet robes. So what? Listen, it skinny jeans and quad robes ain't gonna be in heaven no way. I mean, we I mean, we talk about stuff that does it really matter to God.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02I mean, really, if you think like, but you know what does matter to God? Souls matter to God. Oh, man, and and we ought to be able to come together for that reason. I'm just, and this is what I tell churches, even with Bridging, I'm like, you know why we ought to come together? Because what matters is the word of God and souls. And we all can agree of this purpose is that souls need to be one to Christ. I think every born-again true believer can acknowledge that. And I'm going, hey man, so that's enough reason for me to say, and then here's another part of it. I say, man, look, Topher, you have gifts and anointing and calling I don't have. And it and it's so it's it's foolish for me not to embrace that. And Paul says it like this in scripture. He said, We know in part, we prophesy in part. The danger for the church has been that we get prideful, right? We think we know it all. And we think we're the whole collective of the body, and we're just not. Like, God has not put all of his anointing on one person to know all of it. What does that mean? So that forces me to know I need other parts of the body, right? You think about your physical body, right? The round of it is I I got here today because all the parts of my body was functioning. If my leg decided, you know what? And I typically, I I mean, I I hit the gas with my right leg. All right. If that leg decided, you know what? I don't want to be connected to your body. Brother, I would have had a hard time getting there because I can't drive with this left leg. You understand what I'm saying? So we we have to realize that in the body is, hey man, you might be a left leg, you can't do without the right hand. And so I think in in in instead of us being critical of one another and sometimes Toph, our problem is we go into different churches and we're already critical. We don't like the why they do what they do. Right. And I say this you are not the shepherd of that church, right? They are hearing from God. And if they are in error, your job is to repent. Excuse me, your job is to pray for them to repent, right?
SPEAKER_01Not to be like Not to walk in with a sign going, Oh, you know, you're bound for hell.
SPEAKER_02No, exactly. And and even preachers on Sundays, I'm like, hey man, the pulpit is for the preaching of the gospel, not to give your opinion on what you think about another church. Amen. I mean, what do I look like attacking another family? I don't get to choose the family I'm part of Topher. Exactly. Right? And and and we all got some family members that can be pretty challenging. Right. But I don't disown them because of that. I love them through it. And we have to realize that. Despite that. And we and I think that's that bond of peace, that's that coming together. And I I go into the situation knowing, hey, some parts of my family's gonna think different, they're gonna look different, act different, but they're still my family, and I should be able to love them because of that.
SPEAKER_01Amen. Man, you hit on it uh perfectly when you talked about you know, we we cannot conjure up unity. We can't we can't even create it. No, God is the author of unity. That's right. What does Paul say right here in this um in this scripture? He says, eager to maintain, yeah, not manufacture, maintain. So the the unity has been given to us by the Holy Spirit. Chris talks about all the time. Uh he took his family, uh, and if you don't know who Chris is, sorry. Don't have time. But he took his family to uh to Disney World. Wow. And uh and met a guy who was there with his family. I think they stood together or stood side by side as they were watching the fireworks. And for some reason the Lord started prodding Chris. That's a brother, that's a brother, that's a brother. And immediately Chris just said he felt turn he felt prompted to turn around and go, Hey man, are you a Christian? And the guy was like, Yeah, are you? And they immediately connected, they wound up praying for one another's family right there in Disney. That's that unity that we're talking about. That can only be birthed by the Holy Spirit, and but it has to be maintained by us. Like if we if we start, if we start as the church drawing these lines in the sand, like society does and culture does, yeah, if we start drawing these lines in the sand and saying, uh, no, our common ground is not the priority here. It's this theological idea or it's this church father's idea, or whatever. I'm a Calvinist, you're an Armenian, I'm a Pentecostal, you're a you know, whatever Presbyterian.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You name the differences, but if we start drawing those lines in the sand within the church, how effective are we are we going to be in the world? Ineffective.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Completely ineffective. Absolutely. And the world only changes, in my opinion, in my humble yet accurate opinion, as Chris says all the time. Um the world only changes is uh if the church prioritizes Jesus above everything. That's right. And that doesn't just mean like in in lip service. That's just and it doesn't just mean, you know, what what um we've got some guys who just went through a walk to a mayus, uh, which is an incredible time to hear from the Lord. And what that tends to do and what it did for me, and what it did for Nick in there is it realigned our priorities. And I'm doing my just like you know, if we break this down to the family, I'm doing my wife a disservice if I prioritize her over the Holy Spirit. Wow. I'm doing my kids a disservice. I can't effectively parent my children if I prioritize them over God. It doesn't happen. So my opinion is that the church, our priorities have been lost. And the only way that we're going to be the light in this world is if we unify and place our priority back on the Father.
SPEAKER_02You know, you're exactly right. And and you mentioned it early in the podcast, and we all feel it. I think it's the people who are genuinely walking with God. Yeah. There's a spiritual resurgence happening in our hearts, and God's trying to refocus us into that because it's not too late, right? And I think God is trying to tell us, you know, hey, if you just get back in alignment with me, all these things that and and you mention it, you know, the reality of it is we pray so much for God, would you touch the world, would you save the world? But the reality of it is that that doesn't happen unless the church is aligned to the will of God. And sometimes I think we want God to do things, uh, but we don't want to align ourselves to Him. So it's like we want God to work around our disobedience, I think, in a lot of ways. Right? And and so I mean, when when God tells us to be united, when 2 Chronicles 7.14 tells us to humble ourselves and pray and to seek God, if he says, if my people. And and so that's born-again people. And so I do think there's such a call to the church to say, hey man, like if we can get back in alignment, perhaps this could be the very answer to the prayer we're praying. I think God's trying to give us that wind of opportunity. And where I'm encouraged is I feel like there's a remnant of people who understand that. I'm I'm seeing more and more churches who are trying to, I think, get back to Jesus Christ. Because what what we're realizing, Topher, is this. And here's here's the just the truth as we're talking today. If we don't get back to that, things are only gonna get worse. I mean, they're gonna get worse regardless, just because Jesus is coming back and we know the times are gonna get difficult. Paul says this already, Timothy, a thousand years ago, that the closer you get to the end, the more difficult days will be. But I but and so those some of that is just natural, but some of this stuff is not natural, right? Some of these things happening today are a response to the lack of where the church has been aligned to God. And I've I've I just really feel if we can grab a hold to the teachings of Jesus Christ and church, like you said, get back to Jesus over everything, man, because you know it's it's no different than temple. Jesus said, My house should be called the house of prayer. And they got misaligned from that. And Jesus said, You vaccinated then of thieves. And so he came over there and flipped over every table, right? Whipped them. Yeah, exactly. Right, exactly right. So I I just I just feel like, man, if if we'll be sensitive to the Spirit of God, I feel like healing can happen in our nation. Yeah, and it's going to come through the church because we're the only answer, right? Healing, healing can only come by us being aligned to the Spirit of God. And I think the church at large, if we can get that right now, man, I just I just feel like the souls it'll ch it'll change everything.
SPEAKER_01It'll change the world. And you know, if we look back throughout history, I'm a history nerd, so forgive me on this. No, I love it. If we look back throughout history, you know, the anything worth note that has happened in 2,000 years since uh, you know, Jesus ascended, yeah, uh anything worth note that has happened has happened because uh of the bride of Christ. That's right. Uh I mean the renaissance. You I mean you name it. Absolutely. That all happens because God inspires his followers to to make something happen. That's right. Um, I think one of our issues that we've that we've run up against here, especially in America, is complacency. We've gotten so complacent with uh our and don't get me wrong, like the local church, the local body is so important. Yeah, it's so important for you to be plugged in. Yeah, but we've gotten so complacent in catering to our local body that we forgot that there are other local bodies. And then we forgot that those other local bodies are part of the same body. Come on, and uh we we neglected in some ways, like you know, we we use that scripture a lot, don't forsake the gathering of the saints. But in a lot of ways, we're constantly forsaking it because we're not meeting with the other saints. That's right, you know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_02That's right, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I'm not I'm not saying that local church is a bad thing. I absolutely, you know, love my local church. Right. Um, and it's uh it's of God, and the spirit of God is there, but uh we are doing ourselves as the body, as the bride, no doubt, as Jesus' prize possession, we're doing ourselves a disservice when we do not collaborate with one another in the spirit. I think it's so important.
SPEAKER_02It is, and you know, told for not only are we doing ourselves a disservice, we're doing the people who are lost at disservice, right? And so we have to constantly be reminded of that, that that our idea of unity isn't just for us. Now we're a big part, we're we're a beneficiary of that, I guess if that's a word, right? We benefit from that, truth be told, because we get to function as the body.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_02But who gets the real lost are the souls that are waiting on us. And and Topher, let's be honest, the problem, man, is uh one of the reasons why I think uh over the years we've had what they call a church decline. Um, you know, which we know the church ain't never on decline, even though the buildings may be empty out, church's still alive and well, but historically the buildings have been on decline as far as people coming. Part of that is because I think the world's looked at us and said, Why you invite me into something that you don't even you can't even get together? Yeah, right. It's so it's it's one of those issues where it's like, okay, if I'm I'm seeing y'all fussing fight against one another, I mean, why would I come? And you know, in the same tofu, it seems to me, and I I I don't claim to be the smartest guy in this room, I don't, but it it seems to me the world gets this. Yeah, right? Gangs get this, right? Gangs are made up of different members. But I tell you what, when they have a common goal, which is to destruct, yeah, which is we know that's of the enemy, because the enemy comes to get to destroy. But when when a gang is formed, right, the thing you have to give it credit to, it might be bad, but its idea, purpose, or what it's coming together for, they're they're in on that, right? And so much so. And it gets done, doesn't it? And it gets done, and guess what? And if you try to get out of it, they'll beat you up and kill you. You know, and like you can't you can't just get out and denounce it just because you want to. There's a pro. And so it's like, if the world can, if the devil can make that happen, how much more do the people of God, I mean, I I I wish that we took some of those principles and said, we're not making it hard for you to get out.
SPEAKER_01We're too comfortable.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly. But I but again, I think there's an adversary here that we're up against that that, and you mentioned it at the very beginning. There's there's a force, and we know that force is the enemy trying to constantly pull us apart, get us to say, Well, hey, like, I don't like the way they teach over here. So let me come form something. I don't nothing to do with them we push them we isolate yeah and that's wrong because it's just like man look at the end of the day as long as we're preaching the Bible now if we ever stop preaching the Bible we got a problem right but if we're in the word of God and we're claiming truth then in my mind it's like man listen that's that's enough reason and told for it's the truth I learn from other parts of the body man because I don't know it all right and you mentioned your local church man I I grow through the body of Christ it's like I part of where to shape my walk with God is the different people that God's brought in my life in different seasons that I've been able to glean from tell me your expression and how you express to God and how God speaks to you. I can learn from that. Not that I can ever mimic somebody else's relationship because I can't but what I can do though is I can glean just like Paul says follow me as I follow Christ Timothy was able to glean from Paul. Timothy was not to have the same relationship that Paul had but Paul was able to mentor him and be a spiritual father and guide him through that. And so I so there's such a a blessing and a beauty in our coming together. I mean Psalm 133 says it's it's precious right it's how pleasant and beautiful the Bible describes unity as and as pleasant and beautiful and we know anything Tophy you're a big music guy but harmony right you play guitar you know man when all those strings come together it makes a beautiful harmony yeah and that's what we make in the body of Christ when we come together I this church over here man together we make a beautiful harmony I just think we're missing some notes and guess what because we're missing notes we sound bad to the world I agree we don't have we're out of tune right and I I spiritually speaking I think the church for so long we've been out of tune because again like you said we got focused on thinking well this is my church I got it all but it's like hey man you're still out of tune because you're not playing the notes with the other churches over here in the other parts of the body so we got to get back in tune.
SPEAKER_01Exactly and just to we're we're running short on time here but I want to throw this in there. So going back to this uh this scripture in Ephesians what is Paul trying to accomplish uh by writing the church in Ephesus Ephesus as we know was a big giant huge town yeah and you had people from all cultures coming and and trading here in this town and the first church is now made up of Jews and Gentiles. Yeah yeah and so Paul is trying to bring two completely polar opposite cultures together is what he's attempting to do right here in in this just in Ephesians. Now you know look at the whole scope of calls Paul's ministry that's exactly what he's trying to do the whole time he's like that gummit y'all can't get this right you know it's like uh got sent a meme one time it was Paul writing a letter and to the Ephesians or or somebody and said uh my dearest church in Ephesians you better hope this letter finds you before I love it sometimes I feel like that's what Paul's doing he's like he's like pulling his hair no doubt but um what he was doing he's trying to blend it's not necessarily blending cultures it's creating a new one and that's what we're supposed to be doing as the church yeah that's we're you know we're not I'm I I can't be a part of your culture that I didn't grow up in. You can't be a part of mine that you didn't grow up in. Right. But we can create a new one together. It's called the Bride of Christ. Come on it's the church man it's powerful um I think it's a good place to wrap up Cameron please come back man I will will you come back I man I hey I anytime thank you brother we'll talk about I I just appreciate your wisdom and um and your discernment on these things uh and we'll we'll get with you and link all of your uh info in the description of all of this but I just want to say thanks man thanks for coming and I appreciate you this uh this talk is right on time and uh I think we need to keep the conversation going absolutely thanks for your friendship brother yes sir you too uh Nick Smith love you brother love you too brother thank you for all you do in there thank you and to you guys watching uh thank you so much for your support it absolutely means the world um if you'd like to support us financially you can find us on patreon.com slash tofer brown uh ain't nobody trying to get rich we're just trying to keep this thing going and uh reach more reach as many people as we possibly can so uh but more than that your prayers um we we appreciate that support more than anything and we just want to come around one another if you're out there right now and you're like what the heck are these guys talking about I have no idea what any of this Jesus stuff is we're talking about the hope that we have is found in Jesus Christ that can that hope can be yours today. All you gotta do is confess with your mouth believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord. Come on that can be you today and we'd love to to introduce you to him aside from that I just want to say love you guys. Take care of one another we'll see you next time