NEW YORK TIMES KNOWS MUSIC

 TODAY WE GET BACK TO OUR ROOTS AND ACTUALLY DISCUSS SOME MUSIC. WE ARE TAKING A LOOK AT THE NYT 30 GREATEST LIVING AMERICAN SONGWRITERS. SPOILER ALERT, THEY'RE WRONG ABOUT A LOT. NONETHELESS, LET'S DISCUSS THAT!

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

New York Times magazine puts out an article entitled The 30 Greatest Living American Songwriters. Now, being that the two of us are living American songwriters, let's discuss that. This is the Topher Brown Show. Hey everybody, welcome back to the Topher Brown Show. Appreciate you watching wherever you're watching from, listening wherever you're listening from, and tuning in in general. We always appreciate your support. Very interesting article comes out not too long ago from the New York Times magazine. It's kind of been all over the internet. A lot of uh music influencers like Rick Beato and several others have reacted to this. And believe it or not, uh, myself and my producer, who I who I will introduce in a second, we're actually musicians. We're not actual political pundits, believe it, believe it or not. Uh our day job is uh is is music. So we're gonna get into all that. We're gonna see today how the New York Times and their quote-unquote music critics did on their 30 greatest living American songwriters. But before we get into that, gonna introduce my musician buddy, songwriting buddy, producer, co-host, and all around good old friend, Mr. Nick Smith in there. What's up, bud? All pretty good.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

Howdy howdy America.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

Speaking of America, have you checked out the 30 greatest living American songwriters?

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Oh, I did. And I uh I read all through it with the highest discrepancy.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure we have thoughts. Um these lists, okay. Rolling Stone always puts out these kind of lists, like you know, the hundred greatest guitar players of all time. Both of us are guitar players, both of us are musicians. That's our day job, right? Believe it or not, our day job is not to sit on a a microphone and talk about all the things that are going wrong with the world.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

Thank God.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

Uh thank thank the good Lord above because we we don't make any money doing this yet. Yet. It's a labor of love, ladies and gentlemen.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Patreon.com slash Topher Brown.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Hey, a good plug. Good place to plug that. Um we always appreciate your support. But today I thought, you know, let's lighten the mood a little bit. Let's let's actually dive into one of these silly articles because, you know, this is all subjective, right? I mean, no, none of this is it's all opinion-based. And they have, you know, some music critics, and it says here, just in a little tagline, more than 250 music insiders and six New York Times critics weighed in on who defines the new American songbook. Here in an unranked list are the artists they chose. I'm skeptical, right?

SPEAKER_00 3:05

Uh absolutely same.

SPEAKER_01 3:07

Right out of the gate, I'm skeptical. First of all, I'm skeptical because the New York Times, right? Um, when's the last time you know you picked up a New York Times article and read anything that that you uh considered to be credible?

SPEAKER_00 3:23

Yeah, and uh not to mention, you know, why not have some critics from the great state of Mississippi where we invented modern day music?

SPEAKER_01 3:33

Well, the so-called critics put out a podcast episode after this came out.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

And they're all like Harvard grads and Prince, they're Ivy League school grads, and ain't ain't a one of them got a degree in music, which is so funny to me. But then then again, this is all uh this is all subjective. So this is all opinion-based. So you can, you know, we can we can bash on them all day long, but it at the end of the day, it's just their opinion, right? Yeah, absolutely. In the spirit of that, we've got our own doggone opinions about this list, so we're gonna get it right into it. So let's let's just kick it off, shall we? All right, so jumping right in, number one on their list. Now these are supposedly unranked, but we have Nile Rogers. I I'm uh I might disappoint some people here. I don't know who Niall Rogers is.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

You've disappointed me.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 4:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Uh now looking at some of the some of the songs, I I do recognize some of the songs, but I just didn't know who Niall Rogers was like right off the top of my head.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

Well, you know, when we play gigs, you play Nile Rogers songs uh from the stage. Did you know that? Uh tell me which ones we do that uh if you play Uptown Funk, that guitar lick, bamp, bam, yeah, okay. All right, that's Nile Rogers. Okay, gotcha. Uh probably one of the greatest funk rhythm guitarists in history.

SPEAKER_01 5:03

What's your take on him being uh one of the 30 greatest American songwriters?

SPEAKER_00 5:08

Uh 60 greatest, I would put him in.

SPEAKER_01 5:12

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:12

Not not quite the 30th, but a lot of respect for the guy. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

So we're not just like way out of the ballpark here with him.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

Yeah, and I mean, as far as songwriting goes, um, it's kind of a strange pick to me because I wouldn't say I wouldn't really put him in the great songwriter realm as much as I would great guitar player, great producer realm.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

Yeah. Which I I think kind of cuts to the heart of the philosophical matter that they're that they're trying to get to in this article. Like, what is a songwriter?

SPEAKER_00 5:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:44

Is it a lyricist? Is it a composer? Is it um an arranger? Is it just a musician? Like what constitutes being a songwriter?

SPEAKER_00 5:53

Well, you know, philosophically you could go all over the place with that, and the lines have blurred as years have gone on.

SPEAKER_02 5:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

Uh, but by law, if we're going by the US copyright law, you ain't writing lyrics, you ain't writing songs.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

Okay, so that's a really interesting point. I had not considered that, but this has kind of always been my just kind of like where I'm where I live, like in my mind, like a songwriter is the person who wrote the lyrics, right? But now there is something to be said for the person that writes the music. Sometimes those are separate people, right?

SPEAKER_00 6:27

Oh, for sure. And I mean, that's I think living in this space as a producer myself, like I've always wondered why they categorize it as just lyrics and melody. Um, because I mean a lot of the songs that I grew up on, dude, I couldn't tell you the words. Right. I mean, uh if you can recite all the Radiohead lyrics because you understand what he's saying, uh, you're a genius. You're a linguist for sure. Right. But I fell in love with Radiohead because of the music.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

I I read somewhere where Radiohead's lyrics are nonsensical.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

I mean, I would believe that.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

If you if you listen to things, you know, like Karma Police and things like this, you you can kind of see where that might be the case.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

Yeah. And I mean, uh, Nirvana is another great uh example of that.

SPEAKER_01 7:15

Very much so.

SPEAKER_00 7:15

I mean, a lot of those words I had no idea. I thought he was thinking about El Caminos and Teen Spirit, you know.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

Mosquitoes. Mosquitoes, El Caminos, the whole deal. All right, so I'm deferring to your uh expertise on Niall Rogers. Um, but let's jump to the second one, Lucinda Williams. Huge Lucinda Williams fan. So give me your kind of give me your take on Lucinda where she where she falls in this this list.

SPEAKER_00 7:46

Well, she's an all-American type songwriter. Um, really, really paints beautiful pictures about the South, yeah, uh, about everyday life. Um, Car Wheels on a Gravel Road is probably her best record, but every single one of them have had thousands of spins by me.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

In your opinion, Lucinda, she belong on this list.

SPEAKER_00 8:10

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

I got no problems with that. Also, don't have a problem with number three right here, Stevie Wonder.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

Uh, both on the lyric and music side, he's kind of an all-around package to me.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Yeah, a hundred percent. Like, I think he meets the standard when it comes to um a lyricist and a composer. Because I know on some of those songs, some of those his most famous hits, he's playing all the instruments.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

Every single one of them.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

And writing all of the lyrics. I don't think there's anybody out there in the music world who would dispute Stevie Wonder being one of the greatest songwriters of all time. Not just living American, just one of the greatest songwriters of all time.

SPEAKER_00 8:53

For sure. Yeah, he he definitely he definitely belongs on this list, not only on the list, but in the top of the list. I agree with that 100%.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

Here's where we kind of start to get a little start to get a little tricky. The first three, okay, we'll we'll we'll we'll leave them in the list. Here's the fourth, Jay-Z. All right, so this is where as big a fan as I was of Jay-Z back in the day. All right, early 2000s, dude, I was rocking some Jay-Z. Absolutely sane. But when I think about Jay-Z, first of all, I'm thinking about a lyricist, right? Primarily, Jay-Z is a lyricist. If you'd like to call him that. I I call him that. He's a lyricist. But I'm thinking back to those days when I used to jam Jay-Z in my 1989 Mazda MX6. Oh, wow. Two-door, four-cylinder riding down the road. Uh, and I'm thinking about the lyrics that I was singing along to, rapping along to. Not of the best substance, I would say. Uh, bounce with me, bounce with me, with me, with me, with me, bounce with me, bounce with me. You sure about that?

SPEAKER_00 10:11

That's pretty genius. I mean, I mean, yeah, that makes me so introspective.

SPEAKER_01 10:17

Makes me really think about my life and where it's headed, is what is what that makes me think about. While I will say, like, Jay-Z obviously very instrumental in paving the way for like modern hip-hop. Greatest, 30 greatest living American songwriters.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

Yeah, and when we're talking about lyricists slash rappers, um, man, I can just think of so many others that are better when it comes to substance. And you know, it this is not a secret. This is out there on the internet, and he says it himself. Uh, most of the time he doesn't even write anything down. Right. He walks into the booth and just starts spitting spitting fire, as they say.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

Right. Um, which sometimes look which is a pretty a pretty amazing skill, but how much time did you put into that before you went into the booth? Like, what constitutes being a songwriter? Again, like we we're gonna come back to that question. Like, what constitutes being a songwriter if you didn't write a song?

SPEAKER_00 11:23

Right. And you know, I I always look too at at songwriters as um somebody who's melodic as well, and uh, you know, seeing that I don't think that Jay-Z has ever made a beat himself. Uh, I'm gonna call them beats for uh for this this situation, yeah. But he's worked with so many great producers and people who've written the actual composition of music for him, right? Um that that kind of automatically takes him down a few notches for me.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

Right. Um for the most part, he's just stepping into the studio, putting down his tracks to an already completed song. Um, so I'm gonna jettison Jay-Z from the 30, the top 30. Yeah, boop. Um I don't know. Um, sorry, Jay-Z fans. And I am a Jay-Z fan to some degree, uh, not so much anymore, but I used to be, buddy. I used to be. 99 problems. Ooh, that's a jam.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

Um don't listen to that song, kids.

SPEAKER_00 12:27

Uh this is an 18 and up situation, guys. Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

If that. All right, moving on to the next one. Uh, and I will agree with this one, Paul Simon. Oh, for sure. I think we definitely agree with Paul Simon being on the list.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

Not not only his solo material, but Simon and Garfunkel as well. Yeah. Um, the boxer. What what a beautiful song.

SPEAKER_01 12:51

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

Uh Sound of silence. I wonder, did he write um Bridge Under Troubled Waters?

SPEAKER_01 12:58

For some reason I was thinking that was Carol King.

SPEAKER_00 13:00

Maybe it was.

SPEAKER_01 13:01

But I think she's on this list, so we'll get to that. Okay. But I mean, do you include Paul Simon without Art Garfunkel?

SPEAKER_00 13:10

Absolutely, because you know, if you look at I I look at Paul Simon the way that I look at um Paul McCartney. You know, he had a career, a short-lived career with the Beatles, which it's amazing that they have such a huge catalog because if you look at their their history, they were not together for all that long. But he's still Paul McCartney still had this huge catalog and career past the Beatles. And same with Paul Simon. Yep. Uh Garfunkel, like they they kind of had their day in the sun.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

And then when Paul took off, he had a whole nother career that just kind of shadowed over Simon and Garfunkel.

SPEAKER_01 13:51

No, I'd agree with you 100%. Uh, not to mention one of the most iconic music videos of all time with him and Chevy Chase. Oh, yeah. And one of the greatest soloed out bass licks in a song ever on that uh You Can Call Me Betty song.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

Yeah, and uh not to mention the drums uh Steve Gadd.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

Yes, wow. We're leaving Paul Simon on the list, but we definitely need to talk about the next person, and that's Taylor Swift. She's on the list.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

Yeah. Yeah, gather your thoughts about this one. We don't want to disparage anyone, but I'm I have mixed thoughts about this one.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

I really do. Because I am in no way, shape, or form a Taylor Swift fan. I'm sorry. I know that you could take one look at me and and and uh think, well, that guy really loves him some T Swift.

SPEAKER_00 14:42

Absolutely. Um I don't he's no Swifty, nor am I.

SPEAKER_01 14:47

I'm not a Swifty.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

Uh sorry, Reagan.

SPEAKER_01 14:49

Contrary to to what it may seem. Um, however, I have to give credit where credit is due. I I do think that Taylor Swift probably has one of the most solid work ethics when it comes to music that I've ever seen or heard of. Yeah. But it gets into a deeper question like, is is she actually top 30 American songwriters? I don't know, man. That's a that's a hard one for me.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

Well, you know, there's there's so many. I I'm I'm gonna lean on the conspiracy theory side of myself. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:24

Uh I can't wait for this.

SPEAKER_00 15:26

When I lived in Nashville, because you know, Nashville is just a treasure trove of rumors and information. Sure. Uh we all know her bar her parents bought her way into the music business. Um and in so many situations, there's a massive amount of ghostwriters on this stuff. Yeah. And um, you know, I I would argue that the the older stuff is the better stuff.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

Agree.

SPEAKER_00 15:52

Um, as you go through her catalog, it just feels like, oh, let's let's throw this spitball at the wall and see if it'll stick.

SPEAKER_01 15:59

Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

Um, there's a lot of B filler stuff where the the older stuff was more solid. Yeah. And maybe that's the country side of me.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

Yeah. And and you know, there are people who will live and die by those two kind of different worlds, like the country Taylor Swift versus the pop era. But here's here's here's my opinion, and this is gonna upset some people. I respect her work ethic a lot, but I think that maybe her work ethic is to make up for a little bit of lack of talent.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:32

And and I don't mean talent, I I I specifically I am talking about vocal talent.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

I'm simply not a fan. All right. Again, subjective. I'm not a fan of her of her singing, and I have also seen way too many clips of a lot of sharps and flats uh during live performances and things. Um that's not to disparage her songwriting. I think that she has some decent songwriting. I also think that she has some not so decent songwriting. There's some stuff out there I'm like, huh? That's the best you could come up with.

SPEAKER_02 17:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

My personal opinion, uh, and I'm gonna get hung out to dry for this, but my personal opinion is that she does not belong in the top 30.

SPEAKER_00 17:15

Yeah. But you know, let me give her her flowers as well, because there's something in the simplicity. If you're not a songwriter, yeah, you're you're gonna connect to her stuff a little bit more. It's just not deep.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

It's it might be very palatable and relatable, but it's not very deep.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

Yeah, and I mean you can only write so many uh disparaging on your boyfriend songs before it starts to get old.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

Yeah, and that kind of takes me out of the ballgame. Yeah. T Swift. Sorry, Swifties. You uh you've met your nemesis. Uh all right, moving on. Brian and Eddie Holland. All right, so these guys are some of the the architects behind a lot of our Motown songs. And uh I am a huge Motown fan, by the way. I think I think that some of the best material um came out of the Motown era and can't be replicated. That that type of vibe, that type of sound is so hard to replicate, and so many people have tried to do it, but there's something about it that unless you were living back then, you're not gonna get that same vibe right these days. And these guys were responsible for some some monster songs, throw out some titles here. Baby Love, come see about me, stop in the name of love. Uh I Hear a Symphony, You Keep Me Hanging On, Reach Out, and I'll be there.

SPEAKER_00 18:41

Yeah. I mean, this this was the soundtrack of a lot of my youth. My mom was such a huge Motown fan.

SPEAKER_02 18:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

Uh we had 45 and 8 tracks out of the wazoo of this kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 18:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

Uh so maybe I'm a little bit biased, but I mean, these guys definitely belong there because they built the foundation for what a lot of what songwriting is now.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

I think that so far my my my top two on this list are Stevie Wonder and Brian and Eddie Holland.

SPEAKER_02 19:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

Because uh Stevie Wonder sound, and of course, Stevie Wonder was kind of also in that Motown era. And then Brian and Eddie Holland, the Motown sound, that is like definitively American music to me. Absolutely. You know, and and of course that it's it's it's a spectrum. You have Americana, you have, you know, blues, there's there are many forms of just you know iconically American songs, but Motown is definitely one of those things.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

And that spun right out of right out of these guys, and um they definitely belong on the list. The next person I'm not sure about, and it's Missy Elliott. Um here again, we're you know, we're back into this, we're back into the hip-hop world. Here's my thing. I I have have seen interviews and listened to other hip hop artists and producers talk about how influential and instrumental Missy Elliott has been in, you know, pushing the the uh success of hip-hop along. My issue is I don't know enough of her material to have an opinion on that.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

Does that make sense? Of course, I I I know her hits that came out. Um the of course, uh it's sure in the mid the flying yet or whatever. Whatever.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

Yeah, whatever it is, yeah. Whatever that says. Are you sure that uh the lyric put my thing down, flip it and reverse it, does not hit you in the soul?

SPEAKER_01 20:42

It doesn't uh doesn't necessarily speak to me, uh, but that's just me. That could be, you know, that could have pulled somebody out of the pit uh at some point in their lives. But um my personal opinion, and I'll let you speak to my personal opinion, is I don't I don't know about Missy Elliott on the list.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

Yeah, I wouldn't put her on the list. A ton of respect, um, because I am a Missy Elliott fan. Um she she kind of broke a lot of boundary lines, like you were saying. Uh she she really pushed the genre forward.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

Uh, but at the same time, you know, if you wrote her lyrics down in a poem book, I would probably close it within the first chapter.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

Right. That's a good way to say that. That's a good way to that's actually a good standard to apply to a lot of these artists. Let's go on to the next one, uh, because I'm a big fan of this guy, Lionel Ritchie. Absolutely. We don't need to explain the kind of impact that he's had on uh the world, in and even in some of that Motown era, as we were going back to the Commodores. Right. Um, you know, because those guys were right in that same vein. And then, of course, you have his unbelievable solo career uh post the Commodores, where you have Hello, isn't me you're looking for a beautiful. Beautiful song. Endless Love. Endless Love, man.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

That's a great one, man.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

Gosh. Um now you might know a little bit better than I do, but is he is he pretty uh hands-on in his songwriting?

SPEAKER_00 22:14

I believe so. Yeah. Okay. I I would have to go back and do some research, but I'm I'm pretty sure that the majority of the Commodore stuff he had a big hand in, and especially his his solo career.

SPEAKER_01 22:27

Yeah, I think Lionel belongs on the list.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

Yeah, I I would say so. Not to mention um Amazing Voice. Um and you know, there's there's some people that love American Idol, there's some people that hate it. I'm kind of somewhere in the middle, but the clips that I have watched of his critique of people and talking about music, some of the interviews that he's done, he's so very knowledgeable about music. And there's just a lot of respect there. And then when you put the songwriting on top of it, yeah, uh, just an amazing artist.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

Seems to be a genuinely nice human being, too. Yeah, which doesn't do anything for this list, but it's just a nice fact.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

Yeah, he he definitely uh shines over Simon Cow when it comes to compliments, no doubt about it.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

Or Randy Jackson. All right, next on the list, Dolly Parton. All right, I'm a huge Dolly Parton fan. Uh, not only her music, but just like her as a person. What I don't know uh is kind of the same question about Lionel. How how hands-on is she in her songwriting? I know that she does write a lot.

SPEAKER_00 23:39

Very much. Yeah, very much. Uh, she has a huge catalog of songs that she's written, not only for herself, but for other people.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

Um, if you're anywhere near our age, you probably remember the movie Bodyguard.

SPEAKER_01 23:52

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:53

I Will Always Love You.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

That was probably most of people our age. That was their first introduction to Dolly Parton, even though it was Whitney Houston singing it.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

Yeah, I th I think a lot of people were probably surprised to discover that Dolly Parton wrote that song.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

And and let's not forget about Jolene. Oh, yeah. Who everybody under the sun has done a cover of that song.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

You can't walk into a restaurant that has an acoustic solo act and they don't play that song.

SPEAKER_01 24:23

Exactly correct. Uh so Dolly, you get to stay. All right, moving on. Young Thug. No. Who?

SPEAKER_00 24:34

No, I'm I'm familiar with Young Thug, but uh I put him I put him in the Jay-Z category for sure.

SPEAKER_01 24:39

Yeah, I'm gonna go no on Young Thug. I just nope.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

Well, you know, there's there's something to say too, and maybe we're just getting old, but uh definitely there's something to say. And uh let's face it, uh, Young Thug is reaching a lot of the youth. Sure. Uh rather than uh your 30s and up. What's the message? Uh oh man, can I say those words on this podcast? Yeah, I don't think so.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

Yeah. Uh here's my um very, very biased opinion. If you have face tattoos, you can't be in the top 30 uh American songwriters. So jelly roll can't be in there either. Oh man, forgot about jelly roll. He's gotta be in there, right? Surely he's on this list.

unknown 25:29

He's not.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

All right. All right. Next on the list is Diane Warren.

SPEAKER_00 25:34

Now they did write up a nice little thing about her, but looking at the list of songs that they chose to recognize her for, um, it was a little disappointing because she's got way bigger hits than these.

SPEAKER_01 25:49

All right, we're talking about uh the songs that they listed here. What do we have?

SPEAKER_00 25:53

I don't want to live without your love, Chicago. Okay. Hey, great song, but definitely not one that just jumps to the top of your mind. Rhythm of the night.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

Is this this is the rhythm of the night song?

SPEAKER_00 26:08

I read that and thought the same thing, and I I think that's correct. But that that kind of shows the the depth of her songwriting as well. Sure. You go from a song like that to a Chicago song to an Aerosmith song, like that's that's huge depth. That's talent.

SPEAKER_01 26:25

Absolutely. I'm looking here at uh if I could turn back time, share.

SPEAKER_00 26:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:30

Uh Unbreak My Heart, Tony Braxton. That's a big thing.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

If you ask me to, Patty LaBelle.

SPEAKER_01 26:36

If you ask me to, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:37

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 26:38

And then you you reference Aerosmith, I don't want to miss a thing. I mean, that's an iconic song.

SPEAKER_00 26:43

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 26:44

You know, I'm I'm neutral on Diane Warren. I think she could probably stay. Top 30 for you.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

I mean, it would definitely be like high 20s, maybe. But I think that maybe that's my that's my bias talking.

SPEAKER_01 26:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

You know, that's fine. Because if you look at the size of her catalog, right how many hits she's had.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

Right.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

Um, if you were to take a vote around America for everybody that was familiar with all music catalogs, she would probably make it.

SPEAKER_01 27:11

Whereas they might not be familiar with her name. Yeah. But they're definitely familiar with her music. Yeah. Absolutely. I'm with you on that. The next one is a three-package deal. Uh, and you might know a little bit more about these folks than I do, considering your Nashville roots. Uh, but we got Josh Osborne, Brandy Clark, and Shane McInally.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

Which is is kind of strange to me that they decided to package them up. Um because, yeah, I mean, they're a writing team, but when you get down to Brass Tax, uh, they've they've written plenty of stuff on their own and with other songwriters.

SPEAKER_02 27:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

Plus, I didn't really appreciate the article that they wrote about them. It it felt backhanded. It's uh they kind of spoke of Nashville songwriters as if I think they used the term uh a phrase similar to um if you write enough, you'll eventually hit one, which to me that's a bit of an insult to me. Yeah. Whereas uh, you know, Nashville songwriting really is a craft, yeah, and it's a well-old machine, is what it is.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

Yeah, and there's a formula for sure, but uh I I'm with you on that.

SPEAKER_00 28:25

I I also would have liked to have seen a couple more country writers in here. Sure. Um because I can think of a lot more um than than just this trio.

SPEAKER_02 28:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:38

Um man, the there's there's so many I can't even name them all, but uh one comes to mind that's very I mean, if we're gonna throw young thug and a lot of these newer writers into the mix, somebody like Hardy, yeah, he's written for everybody. Uh, what's the baby? You're a song you make what's that group? Uh Florida, Georgia Line. Florida, Georgia Line. I think he's written the majority of their hits. Uh a lot of Morgan Wallen hits. Yep. Um, my new favorite record at the moment. I think he wrote one uh on Ella Langley's new record. Yeah. If you hadn't listened to that one, oh my gosh. She's awesome. She's the new Casey Musgraves for me.

SPEAKER_01 29:18

Yeah, agree with you 100%. All right, here's one I hadn't heard uh that I have not thought about in a long time.

SPEAKER_00 29:25

Yeah, since my youth.

SPEAKER_01 29:27

And that is Fiona Apple. I'm torn on this one because she is an incredible songwriter, no doubt about it. But she hasn't been on the radar for so long. Right. Um, and I and I haven't heard anything that she's written in so long. Um that that doesn't, I don't know that that necessarily means you can't be on the list, but um also she's a very Fiona Apple's a very acquired taste.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

Right. She's not for everybody, very genre uh specific. Yeah. Um yeah, I mean, I I'm with you. She hadn't been on the radar in years. Um, you know, the really the the only catalog that she has is her own catalog. Yes. You know, things that she's recorded for herself.

SPEAKER_02 30:16

Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:17

Um, I really expected them to fill that gap with somebody who's not only been an artist and a songwriter, but somebody who's written for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

Talking about 30 people, uh they need to be icons. Yeah. You know what I mean? Only 30. Like the next person on the list is an icon, right? Yeah. And that's babyface. Oh my gosh. I mean, babyface undoubtedly deserves to be on this list because just like what we're talking about, like not only does he have like a solo career in which he writes all his material, but how many artists has he written their material, produced their music? I mean, he's one of the most iconic figures in music, period.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

Uh, also as a uh a wide range of genres, too. Yes. You you go from babyface's own stuff to boys to men to Eric Clapton.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

Eric Clapton. And that's a fantastic Eric Clapton song, too.

SPEAKER_00 31:15

Absolutely. Change the world was a was a huge hit for me when I was a teenager.

SPEAKER_01 31:20

He's an incredible singer, Babyface is. Got a beautiful, like sultry, smooth voice. Uh, I think Babyface uh definitely belongs on this list.

SPEAKER_00 31:32

And I mean, uh one of them that really surprised me that I didn't even know that he wrote was I'm your baby tonight, Whitney Houston.

SPEAKER_01 31:41

I did not know that either.

SPEAKER_00 31:42

That's a that's one of my f I think that might be my favorite Whitney Houston song, to be honest with you.

SPEAKER_01 31:47

That groove that that song has. Yeah, I don't I don't know what that groove is called. I know that's called something specific, you probably know, but that is that one of the grooviest songs that there is.

SPEAKER_00 31:58

Absolutely. And you know, I think there's two versions of that song. Yeah, there's one that's like it doesn't have that groove at all. It's very straight, bland, straightforward. And then you go listen to the other one with the groove. Yeah, oh my gosh, it's changing the song completely. That's one of the few uh songs I actually know how to play drums to because I was so intrigued by it.

SPEAKER_01 32:21

Ooh, I can't I can't even come close to that groove. All right, moving on. All right, here's somebody that I do not know. Same. And this is Stephen Merritt. Anything to say about Stephen Merritt? I don't know who he is.

SPEAKER_00 32:35

Well, you know, I I looked at his list of songs. I'm looking at it right now. Uh-huh. Um, I don't even know who the magnetic fields are.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:43

Um, I'm I'm familiar with Olivia Rodrigo, which I I'm a bit of a fan. Uh I'm a fanboy. She she's awesome. Um but and the sixth? No, never heard of it.

SPEAKER_01 32:57

Third we're we're only we only have 30 people here. They need to be icons, they need to be iconic. Like the the stuff that they are the reason that they should be included on this list is because we all know who they are. Now, granted, there's been a couple that I that I'm uh you know less familiar with, but you start throwing their songs out at me, and I'm like, oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. This guy, huh? Well, you know, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 33:23

I just don't know. In a very slight way, very slight way, I kind of disagree with you. I I don't think it has to be somebody that we know because there's a lot of songwriters that we have no idea what their names are, true, but they've written a massive collection of hits.

SPEAKER_01 33:38

Yes, and that and that to me should be the standard. Like, even though I don't know, I didn't know initially who Niall Rogers was, boy, I know those songs. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_00 33:48

Yeah, because I mean rolling back to the country thing, like why why was Mac McInally not considered somebody for the agree.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

Agree a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_00 33:56

Of course, nobody knows who Mac McInally is, but they they chose to recognize was it Steven McInally?

SPEAKER_01 34:04

Yeah, or Shane.

SPEAKER_00 34:05

Shane. Shane, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:07

That's that's that's just kind of strange to me. I agree, agree with you 100%. All right, so Stephen Merritt. Sorry, bud, you're off. Uh much like probably the next one, Romeo Santos. Again, who? And American? Yeah, is he?

SPEAKER_00 34:25

Dominican American. And do we count that?

SPEAKER_01 34:29

I understand. I'm just playing.

SPEAKER_00 34:32

I mean, you know don't come for me, Internet.

SPEAKER_01 34:34

It's it's it's the New York Times, but 30, 30 people. Romeo Santos is one of the greatest living. I don't know who Romeo Santos is. Sorry. I mean, he doesn't belong to the list. I don't know what's I don't know what else to say.

SPEAKER_00 34:50

I mean, if if we want to kind of go down that path, uh, I'd have I'd have put little john in here way before this guy.

SPEAKER_01 34:56

Oh, a hundred percent. And I don't like little John.

SPEAKER_00 35:00

I mean, I love it when he says it, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

All right. The next one definitely belongs on the list. That's Carol King. Absolutely. Uh can't stand her politics. Love her songs. And yes, I can differentiate the two.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:15

Just one of the most iconic singers, piano players, songwriters of all time. Not to mention her ties with uh James Taylor and all the stuff that they wrote together. Which, how did he not make the list? Your guess is as good as mine.

SPEAKER_00 35:30

I mean, that's when I think of great songwriters. I mean, there's a genre named after his style of writing. It's called singer songwriter.

unknown 35:40

Right.

SPEAKER_00 35:41

You know what I mean? Like songwriter is in the name of the genre.

SPEAKER_01 35:45

And that's a spoiler alert for you guys, but also another one. I'm gonna drop another spoiler alert on you guys. Billy Joel is not on this list. Hey, yeah, yeah, yeah. What? How is that possible? Oh, one of the greatest of all time. One of the greatest of all time, not just American, I was about worldwide, one of the greatest songwriters of all time.

SPEAKER_00 36:07

And man, you talk about relatable. The uh the way that he spins a lyric um is it it's one of those styles of writing that by the end of the song you go, oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Like all of a sudden, like it starts to click inside of your brain and go, this song means so much more than just how good the music is. Absolutely. And the music is amazing.

SPEAKER_01 36:30

Absolutely 100%. Um, but yeah, uh, we're we're gonna leave Carol King in. She's obviously definitely makes this list. I'm gonna go out on a limb, actually, and on this next one, I'm gonna say they also deserve to stay, and that's Outcast.

SPEAKER_00 36:46

Yeah, I'm uh I'm 50% there.

SPEAKER_01 36:48

Gotcha. I will say this. Um, not all of their catalog is um maybe up to this standard, but if you were to break down some of their songs, remove the music, and take a look at the the the lyrics, I think it would astound you.

SPEAKER_00 37:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:05

Uh the the depths of the the level of the songwriting here, especially something like Hey I. Oh, yeah, you know, which is one of their biggest hits.

SPEAKER_00 37:12

And that's why I'm 50% there. Um Big Boy kind of leans to me more into the the Jay-Z realm. Um, but Andre 3000. He's a genius, he's a deep guy. Yeah. Uh, and you know, if you haven't, go look up an acoustic version of Hey Yah, yeah, where somebody has slowed it down and put a little more emphasis on the the emotion of the leak.

SPEAKER_01 37:38

Sleep token has a fantastic cover of Hey I really. Yep, yep. It's one of the very first things that they kind of went viral for. I might need to look that up. It's really good. But yeah, I I agree with you. Like, you know, big boy is big boy. I mean, he's a great, great rapper, great hip-hop artist. Uh, but Andre, Andre is um to me stands out in this group as the prolific songwriter of the group. Absolutely. Um, composer, arranger, musician.

SPEAKER_00 38:11

And I mean, you know, uh a lot of people are gonna go, really, like roses really smell like boo-boo. Uh, but hey, listen to that song too.

SPEAKER_01 38:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:20

Listen to those lyrics, and you'll go, oh yeah. I mean, it's a creative way of saying it, but yeah, it means something a lot. I agree with you.

SPEAKER_01 38:29

Moving on, Mariah Carey is on the list. No idea she wrote songs. Uh me either. And and she just kind of falls into this, into that genre of that time where you're just kind of like, oh, well, she's just she's just a good singer. She's looking at a catalog of material and picking the ones that she wants to put on her albums.

SPEAKER_00 38:49

And not boo-booing on her at all because her vocal talent is unbelievable. Oh my gosh. I mean, I I remember when the bodyguard soundtrack came out and I fell in love with Whitney Houston, and then music box was in the same Columbia House records box uh that I ordered the city.

SPEAKER_01 39:06

Well, you're taking it back right there, bud.

SPEAKER_00 39:08

Oh yeah. I was I was definitely in the Columbia House fan group. Uh there was constant CDs coming to my house. Yeah. But like hearing her sing for the first time, I remember like laying on the floor with my boom box on the floor, with my my head in between the speakers going, This is not real.

SPEAKER_01 39:29

But it was her, it's all her.

SPEAKER_00 39:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:31

Um I did not know that she wrote her material, but if she did, I'd say leave her on the list. She's an icon.

SPEAKER_00 39:40

And you know, I don't know that she did write a lot of her own material. Um looking at this list, well, yeah, I guess there are some that are her own material, but none that I I look at that are hits except for We Belong Together. Yeah. None that were just like massive box office success.

SPEAKER_01 39:59

So what do you think? You leave her on the list or no? Nah. You boot her from the list.

SPEAKER_00 40:05

I think I'm booting her.

SPEAKER_01 40:06

All right.

SPEAKER_00 40:06

Top 100, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 40:07

Sorry, MC. All right, moving on. Willie Nelson is on the list.

SPEAKER_00 40:12

Well deserved.

SPEAKER_01 40:13

Well deserved to be on the list. No doubt about it. I mean, uh you cross all kinds of cultural boundaries when you when we talk about Willie Nelson. Like everybody knows Willie Nelson's songs. And um, yeah, he he belongs on the list.

SPEAKER_00 40:31

I mean, uh the guy hangs out with Snoop Dogg. Right. And maybe music is not their common denominator. Probably not. But I mean, the the guy that they hang out, they're they're friends, you know. There's definitely genre lines crossing one way or another.

SPEAKER_01 40:49

But man, I mean, you think about it, like Whiskey River, come on, man, that's a fantastic song.

SPEAKER_00 40:55

I mean, probably the most iconic that everybody knows on the road again. And you know, I've I've been on the road with guys. Uh when I lived in Nashville, I played with a lot of like soul and RB neo soul groups.

SPEAKER_02 41:07

Right.

SPEAKER_00 41:08

And when we would jump back in the truck from being at a truck stop, like the first thing a lot of them would say was on the road again. Like everybody just knows that song. It's iconic.

SPEAKER_01 41:18

All right, congrats, Willie. You get to stay. Moving on, Kendrick Lamar. All right, so Kendrick hasn't been on the scene for too terribly long, but obviously, like Kendrick Lamar has made a lot of uh impact in the hip hop world. A lot. And I have listened to um some of his stuff, and I'm not the biggest fan, but I can certainly understand why people feel the way they feel about Kendrick Lamar.

SPEAKER_00 41:45

Yeah, especially a younger generation, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 41:49

I'm may I'm way more willing to put him on this list than I am, you know, some of these other ones that we've talked about. The Romeo Santos guy, especially. Yeah. Uh I may even be more apt to put him on here than like a Jay-Z, because even though Jay-Z has done more for the genre, I feel like Kendrick Lamar's lyrical content is way deeper and way more thought out. Um and from a songwriter perspective, uh now the question remains: does he belong in the top 30 American living of all time? I I think probably not.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

Well, you know, um, I I have to kind of go back and say, okay, there's a great record. Uh, we all know which one I'm talking about. I can't say the the name of it. Yeah. Um, but really the resurgence of this guy is, you know, his beef with Drake. True. And uh I wasn't I I wasn't impressed.

SPEAKER_01 42:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:49

Everybody kind of went crazy over that. And I was like, man, what what what is this? Right. Like this is yeah. And especially like when I think of guys that are kind of in the realm of Kendrick Lamar, like, why not Lupe Fiasco? Sure.

SPEAKER_01 43:04

Sure, absolutely. Why not? I agree with that 100%. Sorry, Kendrick. You're a talented dude, but not top 30. All right, next, Bob Dylan. This is my personal opinion. No matter how I feel about Bob D Bob Dylan, I'm not a huge, I don't just put on Bob Dylan and chill out. But I will say this does he belong in the top 30 songwriters of all time? 100% yes.

SPEAKER_00 43:26

Ding ding ding.

SPEAKER_01 43:27

He definitely belongs on this list. He's one of the most influential songwriters of all time, much less uh just American.

SPEAKER_00 43:35

Yeah, and I mean there's there's so many songs that the of people that have covered his music, yeah, that is uh outrageous. Uh it it goes all the way from uh Jimi Hendrix to Kelly Clarkson to it, you name it.

SPEAKER_01 43:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 43:50

There's just a massive amount of covers because his songs are so great. Leanne Rhimes.

SPEAKER_01 43:55

I don't think anybody would disagree with us on that one. Bob Dylan. Now, what about in the next one? Lana Dev.

SPEAKER_00 44:00

Gotta say, uh definitely not on this list, but I'm a huge fan.

SPEAKER_01 44:06

I'm not as big of a fan. I I do I have heard I have listened to some of her stuff and I do like some of it. Um but top 30, not for me. Yeah, not for me. Definitely not talented, very talented. Absolutely. All right, next one, The Dream. Uh nope.

SPEAKER_00 44:25

Don't get me wrong. Uh Umbrella is one of my favorite songs.

SPEAKER_01 44:29

Yeah, we're talking about Rihanna's Umbrella. Yeah, fantastic song. Love that song, but uh just not on the list. No, top not anywhere close. Okay, single ladies, I get it, I get it. Top 30 songwriters, American songwriters.

SPEAKER_00 44:44

I mean I I went through and read the lyrics to Single Ladies.

SPEAKER_01 44:50

I did you now?

SPEAKER_00 44:51

I did. Uh, because I I wanted to find some way to give this guy some credibility.

SPEAKER_02 44:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:57

Uh because I am such a huge Rihanna fan and uh a Rihanna fan, and I love Umbrella's just such a great song. Yeah. But for me, uh a song like Single Ladies is all about production. Yeah, there's something about when that bass line finally hits that you're like, oh my gosh, this is where it the the one actually is, the record one actually is in the song.

SPEAKER_01 45:19

I agree.

SPEAKER_00 45:19

Um it's it's an amazing song, but does it does it relate to good songwriting? I just I just don't think so. I don't think so either.

SPEAKER_01 45:26

We we're in agreement. Next, moving through Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis. Uh these two guys are kind of kind of like one of those, kind of like what we're talking about earlier. Some some people that their their names might not jump off the page at you. They didn't jump off the page of me, but the people that they've worked with and the songs that they've worked on, we all know them. Yeah. Uh with Janet Jackson. Um these guys are apparently very influential in the RB world.

SPEAKER_00 45:57

Yeah, that that 80s RB world, uh, may maybe even early 90s um kings of it. I I I I believe they they have a spot.

SPEAKER_01 46:07

Yeah, I I I wouldn't disagree with that at all. Um, I think they they belong. However, I do not believe that the next one belongs, and that's Bad Bunny. Oh, we're we're stepping into some territory here now. We talked about we had an episode about him.

SPEAKER_00 46:23

Howdy, howdy America don't come for us.

SPEAKER_01 46:25

Right, please. Uh but Bad Bunny definitely does not belong on this list. Um for me, it's not because maybe it probably probably should be because his songs are primarily in Spanish, but that's not even the main reason for me. The main reason for me is because the songs aren't good.

SPEAKER_00 46:46

Yeah. And there's just not enough time. There's there's not a long enough span of proving a career in songwriting for me.

SPEAKER_01 46:55

Right.

SPEAKER_00 46:56

Even if I did understand the the lyrics in Spanish, I I still don't think that I would go there just because there's not a big enough catalog and there's not a test and trial through fire for him like there is some of the others I would put on the list.

SPEAKER_01 47:09

There's no doubt that he's a talented guy.

SPEAKER_00 47:13

Oh, I mean he's he's the highest grossing concert sales, right?

SPEAKER_01 47:17

Yeah. There's no doubt about it. People absolutely love the guy, but we're not talking about talent uh when it comes to performing, rapping, singing. We're talking about songwriting. And Bad Bunny, I'm sorry, does not belong on this list.

SPEAKER_00 47:34

Boop.

SPEAKER_01 47:35

Big bud. You gone. The next one uh is Bruce Springsteen. Again, can't stand his politics. Wish he wouldn't talk about it so much, but he definitely belongs on this list. And I'm not even a huge Bruce Springsteen fan when it comes to his music, but his songs are so iconic, there's not a soul on the on the planet that don't know Born in the USA. Yeah. Um and a a hundred other hundred of his other songs as well.

SPEAKER_00 48:04

And if you disagree, uh go listen to the least popular stuff. Go go grab a copy of Nebraska.

SPEAKER_02 48:10

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 48:11

Oh my gosh. I mean, amazing songwriting on there. Absolutely. Born in the USA, a lot of his hits are my least favorites. True.

SPEAKER_01 48:19

Bruce stays. I mean, there's no there's no denying it. He's just again, he's icon status when it comes to comes to songwriting. Uh in my opinion, so is the next guy, Smokey Robinson.

SPEAKER_00 48:31

Uh Smokey Robinson might be top five.

SPEAKER_01 48:34

Very, very possible. And uh he's actually the last on the list. So there we go. But Smokey Robinson, man, um, you know, Motown is one of my favorite genres, and Smokey Robinson is maybe my favorite Motown artist. Yeah. Very quite possibly. Um I put him up there with Stevie Wonder and um and and Lionel and some of these other guys. Marvin Gay. I put I put him up there with Marvin Gaye, for sure for me. Tracks of My Tears is uh one of my favorite, just one of my favorite songs. And look look at the look at the lyrical content. My smile is the makeup I wear since my breakup with you.

SPEAKER_02 49:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:14

He's talking about putting on a a face, putting it on a front.

SPEAKER_00 49:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:18

And uh the songwriting man is just excellent.

SPEAKER_00 49:21

And I he stays. Not to mention he was uh instrumental in so many of these songs. Uh when you when we're talking about Motown, he was instrumental in these people actually being heard.

SPEAKER_02 49:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:35

And not only is it uh a credit to him for being a good songwriter, but also for being able to recognize a good song. 100%.

SPEAKER_01 49:44

So Smokey, congratulations, brother. You stay. That does it. That is the 30 New York Times, 30 greatest living American songwriters. Take it or leave it, whatever you believe. Um, you know, I think I think our our takes on that was we probably we probably followed the majority of the people.

SPEAKER_00 50:07

Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_01 50:08

And you guys are probably going to disagree vehemently with us, and feel free to do so right there in the comment section. It's right below. Feel free to weigh in on this as much as you want or as little as you want. Uh, again, all that is subjective, so this is just our opinions, but uh it is what it is. But my one of the greatest living American songwriters to me is sitting in the next room over there. It's Mr. Nick Smith, brother.

SPEAKER_00 50:32

Oh, come on.

SPEAKER_01 50:33

Thank you for uh for being on the show and doing all that you do on the show.

SPEAKER_00 50:36

Well, before we end this show, let's let's talk about one of the best uh books of songs. Uh it there's no doubt that y'all all know this as a Christian-centric uh podcast. Yeah. Uh go read you some Song of Solomon.

SPEAKER_01 50:51

Oh man. And not only that, the Psalms.

SPEAKER_00 50:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:55

Read read Psalms. Uh, you're talking about beautiful songs. David. David, one of the greatest songwriters, not living or American, but one of the greatest songwriters of all time. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 51:08

Some would disagree with you about that. Yeah, you're probably right. Uh we're we're gonna discount their opinion, but yeah, we don't care.

SPEAKER_01 51:15

Whatever. This is our show. We can say what we want, do what we want. Hey, uh, we uh so appreciate you guys tuning in and and um supporting the show. Again, Nick threw it out there if you want to uh financially support the show, uh patreon.com slash tofer brown, and you can become a member and get access to early shows. We release uh the audio versions of these shows early on Patreon so you can get access to all those. Merch is in the works. I believe we're gonna work up some merch for our Patreon members. So um five dollars might get you a couple of t-shirts.

SPEAKER_00 51:50

Hey, so just think about that.

SPEAKER_01 51:53

Just think about that.

SPEAKER_00 51:53

Or a koozie for your diet coke. Yes, yeah, not sponsored.

SPEAKER_01 51:58

Um so anyway, appreciate you guys and your support and everything that you do. Thanks for uh for watching and listening to our take on the 30 greatest living American songwriters, quote unquote. We'll see you next time. God bless you. Take care of one another. See ya.