ESCAPING ABUSIVE LEADERSHIP

TODAY WE SIT DOWN WITH OUR FRIEND ANNA. ANNA GREW UP IN A CHURCH WITH A LEADER WHO SAW FIT TO ABUSE THE PLATFORM AND AUTHORITY THAT THE LORD HAS GIVEN THEM. THEY ARE IN FACT STILL ON THAT PLATFORM TODAY. LET'S DISCUSS THAT.

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:05

Since our second episode called Ex Evangelicals and Fake Prophets, we've had a few people come to us to communicate their stories and experiences with those very things. We're going to hear one of those stories today. So let's discuss that. This is the Topher Brown Show. Hey everybody, welcome back to the Topher Brown Show. We appreciate you tuning in. Wherever you're listening from, wherever you're watching from, it's a lovely day here in the studio, and uh we're gonna talk about some not so lovely things, but it's a lovely day nonetheless because it is a day that the Lord has made. Amen, church. Amen. We're not in church. Okay. But we're talking to the church. Um so we're gonna talk about some heavy stuff today, but we're gonna we're gonna do it in the light of what the Lord has done in our lives. Does that make sense? That's what we're gonna do. Uh before we do that, before we get into all of that stuff, uh, I'm gonna introduce to you one of my dearest friends, Mr. Nick Smith. Hello, friend. I should be the dearest friend, right? The dearest friend. Not not D-E-A-R, D-E-E-R, dearest friends.

SPEAKER_04 1:24

Ah, there you go. I like that. I could ever have. I'll take that.

SPEAKER_05 1:27

What's happening, bud?

SPEAKER_04 1:28

Oh man, uh nothing much. Uh busy weekends, all kinds of stuff. I did a whole lot of fishing yesterday and uh didn't even get a I think I had one fish take the crappie nibble off of my hook for like three hours, four hours of fishing.

SPEAKER_05 1:46

It was it's kind of a weird uh time to fish because of all the rain, I guess.

SPEAKER_04 1:50

Well, and uh the full moon just passed. Gotcha. That that has a lot to do with it. It's weird that God has created this whole nature system of yeah, you know, uh a full moon can just affect everything in the woods.

SPEAKER_05 2:06

Right. That's pretty that's pretty wild. Well, I've got some some family in town from up north from the from the Illinois area, and I've heard that they want to come fishing at your pond, so get ready.

SPEAKER_04 2:17

Uh tell them no go. No, I'm just kidding. No, they they've already asked, and they are definitely coming. And I'm probably gonna try to sneak out there and fish with them and make friends. Uh I plan on going and buying a whole bunch of worms for them today. It's gonna be a good time.

SPEAKER_05 2:33

That's gonna be awesome, man. Um, so we're gonna talk about some stuff, man. I we had a lot of comments on that episode that we're talking about, the ex-evangelical episode. More than ex-evangelicals, I feel like we we we've delved into the uh kind of false teacher, fake profit line of conversation more so than we did the ex-evangelical stuff. Right. Turns out a lot of people have a lot of experiences with that type thing, which as we know, like all the Mike Winger videos and all that kind of stuff, the discernment ministry guys are doing a really good job of exposing a lot of those people. But for the little town that we live in, there's a surprising number of that. There's a surpr there's a surprising amount of that going on, even in our little place.

SPEAKER_04 3:19

You know, it it is wild. I mean, it seems like for such a small community, we have so much of it. And I don't know if it's like that everywhere else. Maybe it is, but uh, it does feel strange to have so much of it going on in one little spot.

SPEAKER_05 3:34

And I think it's probably important because we're gonna hear about one of those stories today, but I but I feel like it's probably important to also differentiate a little bit because you have um false teachers, false prophets who are teaching false doctrine, and that is of course an abuse of leadership, but you also have kind of in the case that we're gonna hear today, somebody who might actually be preaching sound doctrine, but is actually abusing their congregation. Uh they're abusing the authority that God has given them and kind of lording it over their congregation. That's more so the story that we're gonna hear today. But I think both of those things are equally as bad.

SPEAKER_04 4:11

Absolutely. Do you agree? It's like uh last like I I don't even know if we said it on the podcast, but we were talking about two things being true at the same time. Yeah. Uh, and yeah, this can definitely fall into one of those categories.

SPEAKER_05 4:23

God's got um some pretty direct wording in his word uh when it comes to abuse of leadership, and and I'm sure that we'll get there. So we've got a guest in the studio today, and uh, she's a dear friend of ours, and she's going to tell you her story today. So I'm gonna introduce to you my friend Anna Kuhn. Anna, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

Thank you for having me. Honored to be here.

SPEAKER_05 4:45

Thank you for coming. Now, okay, so let's let's do a little backstory here. Uh, Anna, for those of you who don't know, is one of the first supporters that we had for this show. She's uh she's actually a Patreon member, she's here today. So if you are not a Patreon member, just hey, if you become one, you could be in that that seat right there. Could be one day. You never know. Uh but Anna's been a supporter of this show since the very beginning, so thank you for that. Absolutely, appreciate that. Um, but you as soon as we came out with that episode, you were one of the ones who came to me and was like, hey, I've got an interesting story about this uh that I'd be willing to share.

SPEAKER_03 5:25

Definitely.

SPEAKER_05 5:26

And um, so I thought, well, now's the time. Like this, the the stars have aligned and uh we're we're able to get you on the show. And uh so we appreciate doing that. I understand that you had to organize some babysitting uh responsibilities this morning for us. So thank you for doing that. Of course. But tell us a little bit, just kind of uh first of all, who you are. Uh I have we have gotten to know you and your husband Devin over the past several months. Oh yeah. Um just from coming to to shows and stuff. And Anna sings a little bit with us every now and again. Tell us a little bit about uh you know who you are, where you where you come from, all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

Well, I'm Anna Kuhn, as he said, and um I'm originally from the Brookhaven area and um grown up there all my life and um moved to JS about four years ago, met my husband Devin.

SPEAKER_05 6:20

The huge town of JSON.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Humongous town of JS.

SPEAKER_04 6:23

Metropolis of JS.

SPEAKER_00 6:25

You know what? We've got two dollar generals and a family dollar. We're growing up.

SPEAKER_04 6:28

Come on, hey, come on. When you got two dollar stores, that's something right there.

SPEAKER_05 6:32

Yeah, I mean combine those bad boys and make a Walmart. That's all I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00 6:37

Exactly. That's what we need, a Walmart and JS. We don't even have a red light, but if we can have a Walmart, we're great.

SPEAKER_05 6:43

Which is which is kind of crazy because um, you know, you've sent me a you guys are involved in a in a church out there in JS. And uh not the church we're gonna talk about today.

SPEAKER_00 6:53

No, let's preface that real quick.

SPEAKER_05 6:55

Not that church, you they're they're in a healthy church now. Um, but you guys have got it going on. I've watched a few of y'all's services uh and just out there in little old J.S. Mississippi, y'all got a thriving church out there. It's pretty awesome.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

God has definitely blessed us. Um I would say we have probably around 400 maybe more now in little bitty JS.

SPEAKER_05 7:21

It's like the whole town. It's gotta be really gotta be the whole town.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

But you know, people are actually moving here from all over the place, you know, to be there.

SPEAKER_05 7:31

Probably a lot of people coming from the surrounding areas just to come to y'all's church. That's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_04 7:35

They are in the words of uh Blake Shelton, it's God's country. God's country, that's right.

SPEAKER_05 7:42

That is how they feel, and we we kind of experience that too at Center Point. Like, there's a lot of people, even our pastor lives in Weston. You know, Nick lives in Weston. I live pretty much in Weston. I'm like on right on the line, right? But uh so we come from all around, you know. God God leads us and moves us around in different directions. Oh yeah, pretty cool. But you guys are part of a thriving church out there now. Y'all have one child, is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 8:06

I have one child. He is nine months old.

SPEAKER_05 8:09

Nine months old.

SPEAKER_00 8:10

Little rascal.

SPEAKER_05 8:12

That's awesome. Uh we have a six-month-old at the house. We were comparing notes earlier. Yes. So uh, but you sing, you are on the worship team there at your church, is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 8:24

I'm on the worship team. I sing, I uh play organ, oh yeah, uh main keys occasionally when our uh music director is out of town or something.

SPEAKER_05 8:35

Yeah, I got you. But yeah. All right, so you you and Marvin, Marvin's a good friend of ours who's a in our band, he's our keyboard player. Did Am I mistaken in thinking that you he you took lessons from him at one point? Did you really?

SPEAKER_00 8:49

Um, I think we figured it up. I think I was like 16, yeah, 15, 16 years old when I started taking lessons. Yeah. And um did that for a while, and then we kind of lost contact and then uh ran into you guys about two years ago at Gibbs one night. And I told my husband, I was like, I believe that's my piano teacher. And I was like, he probably does not remember me. And then like I think he had gone to speak to someone or something, and I was like, I'm gonna say something. Yeah and here we are.

SPEAKER_05 9:21

I love it, I love it. Uh since then, you guys have have come to a bunch of our stuff that we play for, and you sang with us a bunch. Anna's an incredible singer. Oh, thank you. We're gonna steal her from her church, uh, bring her on to our worship team one day. Right.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

Uh but not sure they will let me go, but yeah.

SPEAKER_05 9:41

They that no, they're gonna they're gonna hold on to you. Uh but we I I wanted to talk about this because it's a um like this is a a very prevalent thing that's going on right now, just in culture. Um because you um I don't know if you're familiar with Mike Winger, but we're we're Mike Winger fans. Um I think he's I think he's doing the Lord's work um in a real in a reluctant type of way. Um I know that um it can't be easy to you know bring into light a lot of these things that that have happened to people and to and for him to kind of be the the the in-between um for that. But uh so it is a problem, right? It it's a problem. Um and let's be real though, it's always been a problem.

SPEAKER_00 10:30

Oh, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_05 10:32

Even back, even if you go back to the early church.

SPEAKER_00 10:34

For sure.

SPEAKER_05 10:35

Uh Paul was dealing with it, yes, you know, false teachers coming in, um, and not even just false teachers, but abusive leadership. Yeah. Um we've been dealing with this since we've been a church.

SPEAKER_03 10:48

Right.

SPEAKER_05 10:48

Which has been, you know, since Christ crucified.

SPEAKER_03 10:51

That's right.

SPEAKER_05 10:51

Um I think back to uh this is a doctrinal issue, but I think back to the Council of Nicaea. I was doing a lot of research on this, and the whole reason the Council of Nicaea came about in the 300s A.D. was because there was a false or there was a there was a a bishop out there, um, Arius, if I remember correctly, who was teaching a false doctrine to his congregation, and he was teaching that um that Jesus was not one with God, but that he was created by God, that he was uh created by God and anointed basically, um, which went against at that point 300 years of scripture. Um so they called the council of Nicaea together to talk about that and to squash it once and for all. So this has been going on since the the dawn of the church, since the beginning of the church. Um, and it's no different now, it's just packaged a little bit differently, right? Um, so I I want to get into your story a little bit here. So we were talking earlier, and we're not necessarily a doctrinal issue that you experienced, but definitely kind of an abuse of authority that you experience.

SPEAKER_03 12:03

For sure.

SPEAKER_05 12:03

So we won't we're not gonna name any names, we're not gonna name the name of the church or anything like that, but um tell us at the you know, did you were you born into this church? Were you did you okay?

SPEAKER_00 12:13

So your parents were I was born and raised there. Um my parents um I believe they started going there, I don't know, four or five years before I was born maybe. And um, yeah, born and raised there. Um that was the only thing I had ever known. And you know, to start off with, you know, growing up as a kid, things weren't necessarily like they are now. Um I wanna say maybe by the time I turned like eight or nine years old is kind of when things started going sideways. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:56

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

Um so it wasn't always like that. Growing up there as a child was actually a very a good experience for me. So gotcha.

SPEAKER_05 13:06

Yeah. Um so what what is kind of the is there a uh is there a denomination tied to this church, or would you say it's just how would you label it? Charismatic, Pentecostal, how would you label it?

SPEAKER_00 13:17

Um I believe they well they say they're non-denominational.

SPEAKER_05 13:24

Gotcha. Gotcha. We'll leave it at that.

SPEAKER_00 13:26

I'm gonna leave it there.

SPEAKER_05 13:27

There you go. Um so did you I you were eight and nine when the shift started to happen. You probably weren't cognitively aware of what was going on.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

Not really at the time. You know, I could just I'll I'll I'll put it like this. There were things going on before then, but it was never, you know, in the open. But not in the opening. Right.

SPEAKER_03 13:50

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 13:51

Um, there were things m my grandparents were going to church with us at the time. There were things that they saw and experienced there.

SPEAKER_02 13:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

Pretty much called the leadership out on it and was like, hey, this is not right. Yeah. And from then on, not only my grandparents, but my family as well kind of became targeted. Because your grandparents had the courage to step up and because they, you know, they said, you know, called out things that were not right and were not going on. And they they actually um they left the church there when I was probably two or three years old. Uh-huh. And which I know you know this from being in the area, they kind of like to separate families.

SPEAKER_02 14:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:37

So that was kind of an issue there with them since we went to church there and they didn't. It was kind of a strained relationship. Not because we wanted it to be. Right. But you're trying to, you know, follow the leadership that you're under and be submitted.

SPEAKER_05 14:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

But at the same time, you know, it's it's very hard.

SPEAKER_05 14:54

Do you feel like the the leadership at that time kind of directed your f your family to to say, hey, you need to keep them at an arm's distance. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

For sure. 100%.

SPEAKER_05 15:06

Or what indirectly or directly. I mean, directly. Oh, they just came out directly. Directly. Yeah. Yeah. Which that's that's like a common theme amongst um experiences like this.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_05 15:19

Um, even if like I'm not likening this to um the Church of Scientology, but that's the way that they do it. Right. You know, if you if you break away from the Church of Scientology, you are cut. Yes. Your ties are cut. You could be mother and son, husband and wife, you know, it it that's that's how that happens. It is. That's kind of like an epidemic within that culture.

SPEAKER_00 15:44

I mean, I've seen that for years there, you know, with multiple people and families. I mean that's just how how it is.

SPEAKER_05 15:54

Wow, that's that's tough. So um your your grandparents stepped up was there something specific that they saw that they were like, this is not right?

SPEAKER_00 16:04

Or was it just kind of like um I think it was a combination of of things.

SPEAKER_05 16:08

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:10

Um things that were going on within the church, or even I I I've seen this myself, you know, things would be preached to everyone as a sin or something, you know, to say. And then but when it comes to the leadership children or family, it was okay.

SPEAKER_05 16:29

In other words, rules for thee, none for me. Yeah. Um so okay, let's back up. So the leadership when when you were born into the church, is that the leadership that's currently there now? Yes. Okay, so they've been there for a long time.

SPEAKER_00 16:46

They've been there for 30 plus years.

SPEAKER_05 16:49

Talking about pastor, wife, kids, all that.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 16:52

Okay, gotcha. So your grandparents saw something fishy going on, um, potentially an abusive leadership. Yes. Um, and they spoke up and they were told get out.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

Well, I think they made this. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_05 17:10

But then your family your parents were told, hey, you need to you need to distance yourself from that.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

You gotta you gotta separate.

SPEAKER_05 17:16

Wow. That's so what does that do to your relationship with your grandparents growing up?

SPEAKER_00 17:20

It was very hard.

SPEAKER_05 17:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

Very, very hard. Didn't really get to be around them much or have a relationship with them much, you know.

SPEAKER_01 17:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:31

I we would, you know, occasionally or at least try to talk to them on the phone or you know, FaceTime or whatever, once that came about. But um, you know, occasionally try to go see them and pray you don't hear about it later, you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_05 17:47

Yeah. Um It's like you're hiding it from it. You're having to hide it.

unknown 17:51

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

And then you and then you're like, when okay, when you're in when you're in these situations, and of course I haven't seen I didn't see any of this really until right before I left, and certainly now that I'm out of it.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

But the way I've described this to people is like people are like, How could you sit in that? How could you do this? When that is the only thing that you have ever known, and you've never been allowed to go anywhere else, right? You know, to to witness anything else or to see how other places and churches are, like you don't know. Yeah, you don't understand, you don't fully understand what is going on. So in your mind, you're just trying to be submissive to the authority that God has placed over you, you know, or what you believe that God has placed in your life as the time, as far as you know.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

And, you know, you're just trying to be submissive. So you're like, well, you know, I don't want to do something wrong. I don't want to, you know, go to hell for being in rebellion, you know what I'm saying? So you try to follow that as much as sure you possibly can.

SPEAKER_05 18:52

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

No matter how much that hurts, you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_05 18:55

Right. Oh, absolutely. Uh, and I think even, you know, even in my experiences, I I haven't experienced anything like that, but I have certainly been um I'm guilty of of having had the wool pulled over my eyes before. Um and somebody be a very effective communicator in the pulpit and convince me of something.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 19:15

And then only later later on to find out, oh my gosh, I was wrong.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 19:21

I was wrong to follow this. So I I totally get that. When you grow up in it and that's all you know, I can't imagine how how hard it was to break out of that. We'll get there.

SPEAKER_03 19:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 19:32

Um, okay, so growing up in the church, you you and your parents are there. Do you have siblings?

SPEAKER_00 19:37

I have one brother, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 19:38

Okay, so he's younger than me. He was involved in in this as well. Okay. Um, so growing up in in in this atmosphere, um what what age were you kind of like aware that something's not I I'm feeling a certain way about this.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

Well, I guess probably in my younger teenage years, I kind of started questioning things. But then I was like, well, maybe shouldn't I shouldn't question it because like this is, you know, in my mind what God is this is the the place that He is He has me and the leadership that He has in my life. So if this is what He has for me, I I probably shouldn't question it because I don't, you know, I don't want to question God, you know what I'm saying? Yeah But then the older I got the the more things that started happening to me and the more experienced negative experiences that I started happening. And um I had reached out at one point to some some family of mine, some cousins of mine who I wasn't supposed to be in contact with. But you know, I'd reached out to them and I was like, hey, this is this is what is going on. Like, what what do you think about this? Which they're in they're in church as well. So, you know, I mean they were they and they had been praying for years, you know, along with my my grandmother, my grandfather, that we would, you know, be able to come out of that. But I was like, Well, what do you think about you know this situation that's going on? Like, this is what I'm dealing with. And they were like, 100% wrong. Like, this is not not right. You you need to you need to get out of this. And also, and they were they were talking to me about my grandparents. They were like, Do you really think that this is right the way that you're treating them? And I was like, Well, yeah, I mean, but that's what I was being told. I mean, like, yeah, that's that's that's what I'm supposed to be doing. That's that's the way it is.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:29

And um, we actually kind of got into a big argument uh uh about it because I you know, I've always been one of those people, and this is the way it should be, in my opinion. You don't talk about my church, you don't talk about my pastor, you don't talk about no like I'm a hundred percent there, I'm in it, I'm I'm behind you, you know.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

I was always loyal to that. And then so when, you know, my family member was saying something the contrary, I was like, Oh, well, I don't I don't I don't like that. I don't I don't think that's right, you know.

unknown 22:00

Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

But I got to thinking about it. There was a few more things that happened between the time that I talked to them and then me leaving, and and I just got to thinking about it more. And I was like, you know what? They might actually be right.

SPEAKER_05 22:13

So give me some examples of um what was actually taking place that was kind of turning your your thoughts towards something else. Um if you can, if you can, if you can, if you can go into specifics, you don't have to name any names or anything like that, but give me some examples of how the pastor and his family were kind of abusing the the authority that the Lord had given them.

SPEAKER_00 22:36

I'm gonna say this if you're in spiritual authority and you think that it's okay to continue to beat somebody down after they have fallen or make a mistake, then you are absolutely wrong. When you can't reach out in love and help that person and you want to make publicly known things that people have made a mistake and done to embarrass them or you know make them become an example of what you shouldn't do, then you are wrong. And that is some of the things that have been done. I have seen people, including myself, yeah, that have made mistakes and been publicly just humiliated and embarrassed in front of the entire church. That is wrong.

SPEAKER_05 23:26

Absolutely, that's wrong.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

You should not do that.

SPEAKER_05 23:29

So they publicize your failures or whatever or your perceived mistakes or failures. And then what how are you treated in the con because you're coming you're coming back to church, right? Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

How are you treated?

SPEAKER_05 23:42

Are you ostracized within your own church family?

SPEAKER_00 23:45

Pretty much, yeah. Wow, I can't even imagine just you know, a handful of people, and and to this day, there are still probably a handful of people that I can say genuinely love and care about my family. People that I really do miss, you know. Yeah, but I can't have a relationship with them now because I'm gone. You know what I'm saying? Right. They can't they can't really they'll speak and you know, talk to us in town and things like that, but you really can't have a friendship with them anymore because you know they're told not to. Right. But in in that time, there were people who genuinely cared, yeah, and you know, would you know would try to reach out and you know, spend time talk to me, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 24:26

Right.

SPEAKER_00 24:27

But for the majority, you know, they were told, you know, oh how terrible.

SPEAKER_05 24:32

And this you know, I wasn't happening to just you. I'm just people that would have these experiences.

SPEAKER_00 24:37

Yeah, several, several people that had these experiences. And you know, you just kind of get shunned basically, or you know, sat back and sat down from everything and everybody. You basically just come sit on the pew. You can't really get involved in anything.

SPEAKER_05 24:52

We had um we're talking to someone who had a similar experience, you and I, and they um they were made to sit there and be ignored by everybody. They were uh like the the the congregation was was directly told to ignore this person. Yeah, don't talk to them while they're in the room.

SPEAKER_00 25:12

Yeah, yeah. They were I I was actually there that day, and they were told, you don't have anything to do with them. I mean, they're basically just and they're in the room.

SPEAKER_05 25:23

They're in the room with this being said. I can't imagine like what that does to the human psyche to know that you the thing that you've grown up in, the family that you've grown up with, the church family that you've grown up with, is now being told you're a scum of the earth, don't interact with them. And there's and you're still in their midst. That's horrible.

SPEAKER_00 25:43

It's um I I really don't even know how to describe how that feels. I really don't. It's one of the most hurtful and painful things that you can feel, you know. Those are the people that are supposed to love you and care about you. And when you do make a mistake or you sin or whatever, those are the people that are supposed to be there to lift you up and and help you get back on your feet and and you know, help you get back to where you need to be in God.

SPEAKER_05 26:09

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

When you when you when somebody makes a mistake and you continue to beat them down, that's not right.

SPEAKER_05 26:15

That's crazy. As a matter of fact, Jesus uh tells us how to deal with uh a brother that um that sins against you, not that you were sinning against anybody, yeah, but um Jesus tells us exactly how to deal with disagreements. And by the way, none of that is scriptural that you just described, but it says in Matthew 18, 15, if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother, but if he does not listen to you, take one or two others along with you.

SPEAKER_03 26:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 26:55

One or two, one or two others. Yes. Okay. That every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Um, basically dismiss them.

SPEAKER_03 27:16

All right.

SPEAKER_05 27:17

So what he's saying there is, hey, if there's an issue, you pull that person aside.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

Right.

SPEAKER_05 27:22

In private. Yes. You say, Hey, hey, here's what I'm having an issue with. Yeah. If that person does not listen, does not take any correction, then you bring some backup.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 27:34

One or two.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

Right.

SPEAKER_05 27:36

And if they still don't listen to the correction, then you bring it before the church. Yes. And but it that's not to ostracize those people, it's to ask the church to help them. Right. And then if they still refuse, then you need to find another place. That's right. I'm assuming that's not what happened with you and with and with these other people.

SPEAKER_00 27:53

No. And I'm not gonna, I'm not, I'm not trying to can compare churches or pastors, but yeah, one thing that I appreciate about my current pastor is that if there is something going on in the church, yeah, whether somebody makes a mistake or, you know, I mean, there's just outright sin going on, you're not gonna know about it. I mean, nine times out of ten, we rarely know what is going on because he handles it in private. He just goes to them and is like, hey, we need to talk about something, you know. And he is not doing it to try to hurt these people. When I tell you that he loves people and he cares about people, yeah, like it's so genuine and like his heart for people is just incredible.

SPEAKER_05 28:39

I've actually heard wonderful things about your pastor. I I've yet to meet him, but I I look forward to to doing that. Absolutely. Uh, but that's exactly right. I mean, that's because that's Jesus' model.

SPEAKER_00 28:48

That's the way it should be.

SPEAKER_05 28:49

That's Jesus' model. He tells us to do that. Um, so that's not happening at at this at that church. Uh you're you're let me ask you this are there instances where the congregation was led to believe that you made a mistake, but you actually were completely innocent.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 29:06

So what so what goes on in that scenario?

SPEAKER_00 29:10

I I d I still have family members that attend church there. Yeah. But um we haven't gotten along in quite some time.

SPEAKER_02 29:18

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 29:18

But there's always been kind of a issue of some jealousy there because of different reasons. For years, even when we were still going to church there, you know, together, um, it's always been kind of a try to get back at you kind of situation. And there were a couple of instances where things were actually, and I'm I'm being completely honest, actually made up wild story out of thin air of things that I was supposedly doing. And they were taken to the pastor.

SPEAKER_02 29:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

And um, you know, they they told them these things. The pastor comes to me, no questions asked, not my side of the story, not what what what actually happened here. Yeah. It was just chastisement for what they had been told.

SPEAKER_02 30:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:13

And then it's told to, you know, people in the church, like, hey, she did this, this, this, and this. Stay away.

SPEAKER_05 30:20

How old are you at that time?

SPEAKER_00 30:22

I was oh my gosh, 23, 24.

SPEAKER_05 30:27

Gotcha. So you're a young, young lady, and uh and here are all these accusations being hurled against you that you didn't do. Wha what do you do? Like what where does your mind go? Where does your heart go?

SPEAKER_00 30:40

And that's just broken.

unknown 30:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:43

You know, I mean, all I could do was just cry because I I would try to explain myself, or you know, not even really explain myself, but just like, hey, wait a minute. Like, this is not what went on. And then I'm being told that I'm not being truthful. At that point, you just take it. Because I d I didn't really know what else to do. I just took it and then just Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:06

So let's let's go to a spiritual place here. So what's your relationship like with the father at that time? Like, is he is he like the really the only thing you got?

SPEAKER_00 31:16

The only thing I had.

SPEAKER_05 31:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:18

The only thing I had because I had someone that I was really close to, thought I was close to at the time, thought I a best friend of mine that had been for years, yeah, really thought I could count on. And I was like, well, if nobody else will be here for me, they will.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:36

Well, that turned out not to be the case either. So when it came down to it, and they started asking them questions about things that had gone on, and mind you, I was with them the majority of the time. Like we hung out together all the time.

SPEAKER_01 31:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:51

You know, I would go over to their house, you know, be with them, their parents, every and you know, that we were just together all the time.

SPEAKER_01 31:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:58

So if anybody knew me or what I would be, you know, have been doing, it would have been them.

SPEAKER_02 32:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

And um, so when it came for time for them to be asked questions about things that I was supposedly doing, they just completely turned on me. The one person I thought I had, yeah, I didn't have that anymore.

SPEAKER_02 32:18

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

So it was literally just my relation, me and my relationship with God. Yeah. And I would, I would there were so many times, so many nights, days, even on my job, I would just cry and I would pray and I would be like, God, I don't understand what is going on. Like, I'm not trying to question, you know, what you're doing, but I don't understand what is happening. Like, I feel like I'm trying my best to serve you.

SPEAKER_02 32:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:46

But then all this is just coming against me. Yeah. And I would go home at night and I would cry and I would pray and I'll be like, God, I want to, you know, I want to have a relationship with you. I want to live for you. I want to serve you. You know, I I want to I want to do what's right.

unknown 33:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

But if this is what it is, I'm done.

SPEAKER_02 33:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:05

I can't take this anymore.

SPEAKER_02 33:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:08

I mean, I had I had gotten to the place mentally, I didn't, I didn't even know this at the time, but right before I left, my my grandfather was talking to my my grandmother, and he told her, I don't know, probably a month or so before I left there. He said, if she doesn't get out of there, she will end up in a mental institution, or she's gonna commit suicide. And I had not told anybody that.

SPEAKER_02 33:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:38

This is his surprise, this is public now, you know. But yeah, and I have I honestly felt like that, you know, God let him see that and and let him know that. But that's the place that I was in.

SPEAKER_02 33:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:51

I was like, it because like I told you before, I had never known anything else, never visited anywhere else, never, you know, was never able to go and do anything else.

SPEAKER_03 34:01

Right.

SPEAKER_00 34:01

So that's the only thing I knew. I was like, if this is what what living for God is about, I can't, I can't do it anymore. I want to. I want to live for God so bad.

SPEAKER_01 34:12

Right.

SPEAKER_00 34:12

And I would just cry and I would pray. I'd be like, God, I don't want to go to hell.

SPEAKER_05 34:15

Like, you know. And you were being told that you you are unless you, you know.

SPEAKER_00 34:20

Yes. Well, here's here's the thing. I I told God, I said, if I stay at the church, I'm going to hell. If I leave the church, I'm going to hell. If I go out in the world and just party it up, live it up, I'm going to hell. So why does it matter anymore?

SPEAKER_05 34:37

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

Why do I try?

SPEAKER_05 34:38

So you're you're in danger here now of jeopardizing your relationship with God.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

Yes.

unknown 34:43

Gosh.

SPEAKER_00 34:43

I just I didn't want anything to do. I dreaded going to church because I was so scared of what was gonna happen to me whenever I, you know, we go in the doors every week.

SPEAKER_02 34:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

You know, I mean, I was I was faithful. I was there for everything, for Sunday, for midweek, for prayer meetings, for whatever. I was there. I got to the point, and I love church. Like church is my life. I mean, if you if you know me now, you know church is my life. Right. But I didn't want to be, I didn't want anything to do with it anymore. I would go to church and I would sit in the car when I pulled in the parking lot and just be like, Do I really have to go? Do I really have to go in here? Is somebody gonna say something to me today? Is somebody gonna accuse me of something today? Is somebody gonna yell at me about something today? Like I would go and I would sit on the back pew and I would worship and I would pray and then I would immediately leave and go home as soon as it was over.

SPEAKER_01 35:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:39

Not even try to talk to anyone or anything because I didn't feel like I had anyone to talk to, first of all.

SPEAKER_05 35:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:45

But you know, I just didn't I didn't want anything to do with it anymore.

SPEAKER_05 35:48

So you you at this point you're just going to church uh out of your faithfulness to God. Yes. Um, but you've got no sense of fellowship or so your family still is your uh parents still plugged in here?

SPEAKER_00 35:59

They were yes, they were still there. My parents and my brother were still there at the time.

SPEAKER_05 36:03

What was your relationship like with them? Was it strained because of all of that stuff?

SPEAKER_00 36:07

No, no, my relationship, you know, with my my household, you know, was fine.

SPEAKER_05 36:12

Yeah. Were were other were they looking at your family differently because of the things that you had supposedly done? Or were they were they compartmentalizing a little bit?

SPEAKER_00 36:23

I would say yes and no. Um, I think they just had issues with my family just out of the gate. Because well, because of that, and because my my dad, you know, would question things or would stand up about things, you know. He would he would say, you know, why is this being being preached against? But all of a sudden, when someone else that's close to you wants to do it, it's okay. I'm not saying that it's not okay. I'm just genuinely asking, why is it not okay one minute and then it's totally fine the next? And because that was one of the reasons, you know, why they'd never you know cared for him, because he would just call things out as he saw it.

SPEAKER_05 37:03

Yeah. In other words, that's an abuse of authority. That's abuse of authority that you've been given. It's no different from um, you know, uh a president keeping his son out of prison.

SPEAKER_00 37:15

Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 37:15

Just because he's the president's son.

SPEAKER_00 37:17

Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 37:17

No different.

SPEAKER_00 37:18

Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 37:18

But but worse, yeah, potentially, because this is we're not talking about the president of the United States, we're talking about uh a minister of of the father, somebody who has given uh in his grace has given a human being a platform and authority, and you're you're abusing it.

SPEAKER_00 37:36

Somebody, you know, that's supposed to be the the watchman for your soul. And you know, there there were even times when, you know, I was going through a really, really rough time, probably 18, 20 years old. I went to my leadership at the time and truly confided in them about some things. And I was like, you know, I I normally and I I normally you didn't do that. I wasn't one to just go and talk to people about anything that I was going through. I kind of held it all in, you know, but I I I really needed some some guidance. And I went and talked to them in confidence that nothing was ever gonna be said. Yeah, and then literally a week later, I hear from people things that I had talked to them about, and I was like, Where did you hear this? Like, how do you know this? Like, I talked to them in confidence about this.

SPEAKER_02 38:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:32

At that point, I lost all trust in everybody so specifically ministry.

SPEAKER_05 38:40

Uh but uh uh pastor congregate confidentiality is a real thing and should be respected as well.

SPEAKER_00 38:47

So I completely lost trust there. I guess that was that was one of the the main points where I was like, okay, yeah, I really don't have anybody here.

SPEAKER_05 38:56

So let's talk about how you got out of it. Uh let's talk about your exit from all of that. How did that come about?

SPEAKER_00 39:05

It was kind of just abrupt and all of a sudden. Well, I say all of a sudden, but like obviously all these things have been leading up to it. But I was literally at at work one night. It was a slow night at work, so obviously all these things were just reeling in my mind.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

And I had all night to think about it. I just literally made up my mind sitting in the desk at work. Okay, I'm done. I'm not going back. Wow. This was a Friday night, I believe. Yeah. And uh I called my parents the next morning after I got off of work and I said, I'm done. I'm not going back. I don't know what this means. I don't know if I'm gonna still be able to, you know, even have anything to do with y'all. I don't I don't know if I'm gonna have to move out. I don't know what I'm gonna have to do. I don't know what this means. Yeah, but I'm done. I can't take it anymore. My dad my dad called the pastor and he said, Me and my wife and my daughter won't be back. He said, I'm not gonna make my son quit going. Yeah. You know, because at the time it I say it really didn't have anything to do with him, but I mean, you know what I'm saying? It wasn't really just affecting him at the time. He's like, I'm not gonna make my son quit going. If that's where he wants to go to church, that's fine. I'm not gonna go so he's old enough to decide basically.

SPEAKER_05 40:26

I trust my kid.

unknown 40:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:29

But he had he had already kind of slacked up on going himself because of just the stuff that was going on. But he never made us stop going. He was like, if that's what you want to do, if that's where you want to go to church, that's fine. And I'm here for it. But if you decide that you're done, then let me know. And he did, and I I left when I was 25.

SPEAKER_05 40:55

So uh how did the pastor take that news when you're dead? Very well. I can imagine.

SPEAKER_00 41:01

Not very well.

SPEAKER_05 41:02

I I already sense an ego issue uh and an arrogance and pride issue. Uh so I can't imagine that having another grown man tell him, hey, we don't trust your authority anymore.

SPEAKER_00 41:14

So this this is what he when he told him that we were not we were not coming back. He said, I'll give you my word on this. I'm not we are not going to talk horribly about the church or you know, you or anybody else and just slander you all over town and everywhere else, which we have not done. I have spoken about my experiences, but I've tried to be careful with what I say.

SPEAKER_01 41:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:40

But he said, We're not we're not gonna be those people that just go and just run the job, destroy somebody. Yeah. Matter of fact, like I believe he said in in one of the other episodes, you can leave, but you don't have to blow the place up whenever you leave. You know what I'm saying? Sure. And and we were just not gonna do that. And obviously my brother was still there at the time. Right.

SPEAKER_05 41:59

So he was trying to wanna create a hostile environment.

SPEAKER_00 42:01

Exactly. Yeah, trying to be careful with that as well. Absolutely. Um God protected us and and and looking out for us. But my grandmother, you know, that we were speaking about earlier, she's actually passed now, but um that was one praying lady, and she had been praying for years for us to be able to come out of that.

SPEAKER_02 42:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:24

And um, I believe I got a year and a half with her before she passed away to try to have a relationship with her. And then, you know, whenever whenever she passed, yeah, thank the Lord, but whenever she passed, it was kind of she had been sick, but also we had we had kind of thought she was getting better, and when she passed, it was just kind of a sudden thing, unexpected. That was probably one of the hardest things in the world for me because I felt so much guilt for nothing. I mean, I'm 25 years old and I just now really spent a year and a half with my grandmother. Yeah. But I felt so guilty, and I had it it took me a long time to try to get through that and to deal with that. Yeah because I just kept blaming myself for everything. Like, why did you do this? Why did you and and me and her had talked and you know we had we had discussed all the things that were going on, and I had told her that. Yeah, you know, how how guilty I felt. And you know, of course she told me, you know, she never felt that way about me or anything toward me. Yeah, and she was like, you know, you didn't know any better. You were doing what you were told to do.

SPEAKER_05 43:41

Grandma was right, and and you'll see her again. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:46

And that that's you know, that's what I have to to tell myself at that, you know, yeah to try to to try to get through it, you know. But that was one of the hardest things ever. But uh my brother, he was He still went to church there for so he was there three years without us. He eventually did leave and Well, he kinda got made to leave, so there you go.

SPEAKER_05 44:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:09

Yeah. It was another one of those things where some accusations were placed on him and I'm not gonna go anywhere that 'cause it was pretty it was bad.

SPEAKER_01 44:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:18

But my brother is the type of person where he is extremely loyal, extremely faithful. He when I tell you that he is just he is one of the most on fire for the Lord young people that I know. And I'm telling you, he has a wonderful relationship with God. But unfortunately, I knew that it would take something like that for him to come out of there just because he was so faithful and so loyal and just in it a hundred percent. Yeah, you know. And of course, that's all he had ever known either. You know, he was born and raised there too. So I knew it would take something really negative to bring him out. But I I mean now he's just thriving. Praise the Lord. You know, he's doing wonderful. And I mean, you know, there's still hiccups, you know, that we're having to get over. And and you know, even coming into another church that's completely different from what you've ever known. I mean, you can imagine the the mental struggles and things that I had to go through. Yeah. Coming to somewhere new, trying to put trust in another leadership. Matter of fact, whenever I first came there, the first time, I wouldn't, I probably wouldn't do this ever again in my life. But the very first night that I met my pastor and his wife, I just flat out told him, Hope you don't expect me to trust you anytime soon because that's not happening. Wow. I did. And um it didn't take long for that to change.

SPEAKER_05 45:50

Well, good on him for for accepting that.

SPEAKER_00 45:53

Oh, yeah, he did. He was like, Hey, I'm fine with that. He was like, But I hope you at least give me the chance to you know when in doubt, trust the Lord. Oh my goodness, yes.

SPEAKER_05 46:02

You know, as as and I I can say this, you know, as hav having been in ministry for, let me think, twenty almost twenty-five years, you know, as as ministers, we're we're fallible because we're human beings. And the authority that got that's why it's so important that we um we nurture and care for the authority that God has given us because we are fallible. Yes. But at the end of the day, if we're not pointing people uh towards trusting Jesus more than they trust us, then we're not doing our job as ministers. So good on him for for accepting that and doing that.

SPEAKER_00 46:37

And that is that is one of the things, you know, that I I experienced there. It's just it's you don't you don't question anything that they say, like what they say goes, and then this is because I said it, this is how it goes.

SPEAKER_05 46:51

Which we know is you know counterscriptural because we we actually have an example and I'm blanking on the the book, but it's a it's a writing of Paul where the church leadership that the church that Paul established in this place, the church leadership starts uh actually running Paul's teachings up against the scripture. Paul now, you know, and uh and Paul says, No, no, no, no, that's a good thing. Yeah, you need to do that. Yeah. Well take my word for it, take this word for it.

SPEAKER_00 47:25

Yeah. And and then that's exactly, you know, my current pastor now. He'll say, you know, if you think that I'm I'm not in the word, it or you know, that I'm I'm teaching something contrary to the word of God, let's get in it. Yeah, let's pull it out, let's get in the word. And if I am, yeah, then I'm gonna fix it. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? You know humility.

SPEAKER_05 47:46

I mean, he he calls us to humility.

SPEAKER_00 47:48

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 47:49

Um all right, so with our last remaining minutes here, yeah, let's let's jump to some scripture about these very things. Nick, you've got I think you got Matthew seven pulled up.

SPEAKER_04 47:59

It was Matthew seven, fifteen through twenty. And it reads, Beware of the false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree must bear good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Yep. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

SPEAKER_05 48:40

So we're all going to bear some type of fruit.

SPEAKER_00 48:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 48:43

Whether it's good or bad.

SPEAKER_00 48:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 48:45

I don't know about you, Nick. I hear a warning in that message. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 48:49

Absolutely, yes.

SPEAKER_05 48:50

I hear a warning that if we are bearing bad fruit, our tree gets cut down. Which goes right along with uh the scripture that I had pulled up, which was um James 3:1. Gosh, this is the importance of this of this scripture, especially though for those of us who are in leadership. And I hope and pray that somehow this reaches the ears of that particular pastor because it is scripture. It should be, it should shake your foundations a little bit. Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness. So we're already going to be judged with greater strictness if we're in leadership. Now imagine that you are abusing your leadership.

SPEAKER_03 49:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 49:37

What that tells me is that you don't have respect for eternity. You're living out your authority on an earthly plane.

SPEAKER_01 49:44

Right.

SPEAKER_05 49:45

But this is not our home.

SPEAKER_01 49:47

Right.

SPEAKER_05 49:47

So you're gonna have to answer for all of the things that you did here in this place if you were leading uh people astray, which uh Jesus also talks about Matthew 18 and 6.

SPEAKER_04 49:58

But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin is better for him that a heavy millstone hung around his neck and that he be drowned in the depths of the sea.

SPEAKER_05 50:10

Yeah. That's heavy. That's coming straight from Jesus. That's not so meek and mild.

SPEAKER_00 50:15

Oh no, no, and you know, that's kind of one of the things we talked about before. Um, you know, there's been so many people like myself who unfortunately never made it to another, you know, church or gave up on having a really a relationship with God and will never, you know, go in the doors of another church ever again.

SPEAKER_02 50:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:37

And it it breaks my heart because like I'm so concerned for their for their soul, but the people that cause this are gonna have to answer for them.

SPEAKER_05 50:49

A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_00 50:50

Their their blood is gonna be on their hands, one hundred percent.

SPEAKER_05 50:53

And I think that's that's an important thing to to remember as we kind of wrap up here. There are genuine brothers and sisters right now in that church, but also in churches just like it, all across the world, that are experiencing abuse by their their leadership. And I um it's important to know that you can preach the Bible all day long, you can preach the word of God all day long. Your doctrine can be sound, yeah, right? Your theology can be a-okay, but if you are abusing the people that God has put under your care, I immediately question your relationship with Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 51:32

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 51:33

I I and I'm so you know, if you if you're out there listening, I'm sorry. I question your relationship with Jesus because Jesus teaches the exact opposite of what you are carrying out in your life. And I would also issue this statement, and I'll I'll do it boldly. If that pastor is watching or listening and he knows that I'm talking about him, or if you are a pastor like that, step down from ministry, please. Step down from ministry, repent, and don't come back to ministry. Join a local church somewhere and be minister to, but do not come back to ministry um because you aren't fit for it.

SPEAKER_00 52:08

God called you know pastors and people in ministry to to be shepherds of his people. Whenever you start thinking that, you know, it's all about you and what you say goes and and you you're leaving God out of it. I I heard a pastor that's that's really good friends of uh mine and my husband's one time say, God called me to be the shepherd over his congregation. If somebody feels like not, you know, not any kind of drama or nothing going on, but they feel like God's leading them somewhere else. He said, Who in the world am I to stand in the way of that? He's like, These are not my people.

SPEAKER_05 52:43

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 52:44

These are God's people.

SPEAKER_05 52:45

They belong to God. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 52:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 52:47

And you don't beat the if you're a shepherd, you don't beat the stew out of your flock. No, you don't. It's just counterproductive. As a matter of fact, Jesus talks about the shepherd who left the flock. Yeah. Left the 99 to go after the one.

SPEAKER_00 52:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 53:00

Because he cared about them that much.

SPEAKER_00 53:01

Yeah. He didn't run them off, you know. He went to to find them and pull them back in. Yes. And to try to restore them.

SPEAKER_05 53:08

Absolutely. And you know, there is such a thing as righteous indignation. I mean, Jesus, Jesus um showed us that in the temple when he's flipping over tables and stuff like that. That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about absolute abuse of the platform that God has given you. And so here's what I'm thankful for, though. I'm thankful that you came out of that. I'm thankful that you met your husband and that y'all have a family. I'm thankful that your family came out of that as well. I'm thankful that you got to spend some time with your grandmother.

SPEAKER_00 53:36

Yes. And um I'll give a quick little testimony about, you know, me and my husband, real quick.

SPEAKER_05 53:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:41

Obviously, if I'd have stayed there, I wouldn't have uh met him, but I I wouldn't have had a marriage anyway because it that was another thing, you know, kind of a they kind of tell you what what to do. And I had already been told that that wasn't happening. So yeah. So being being at the church where I am now, actually we didn't I had been going to church there probably a month or so before like I ever even seen my husband. You know, we got a big church. Yeah. And um, but I I was talking to my pat my current pastor's wife now, kind of about that situation. And she said, if you will go on a fast, I believe that God will send you your husband. And I don't know if you've ever heard of it, but um there's a there's a fast, it's it's called a 52-day fast, but it's not fasting like food, water, you know, whatever. It can be anything. Like it can be just fast from something that's reading the newspaper, it could be social media, it could be whatever. And so she's like, I want you to pray. I want you to ask God to to lead you to something, you know, that you need to fast. Whenever you decide that you're ready, let me know I'm gonna do it with you.

SPEAKER_02 54:54

Wow. That's cool.

SPEAKER_00 54:56

I'll I'll I will pray and I will see, you know, I will seek guidance about what the Lord wants me to fast and I will do it with you. And she said, I believe God will send you your husband. Wow. Day two of my fast, Devin texted me. I didn't even finish. Day two, he he texted me. Um a cousin of his that goes to church with us had sent him my number. I didn't know it until after the fast was over, but he was on one as well for the same thing. And look at the look at the getting emotional here. Look at God. He was on one for the same thing, and um August will be married three years. Oh, and now we have a miracle child. I've had so many issues over the years and sicknesses, I wasn't supposed to have any children, but God completely healed me, and now we have a miracle baby.

SPEAKER_05 55:49

The Lord is good.

SPEAKER_00 55:50

The Lord is good, he's been very good to us, and he's sovereign.

SPEAKER_05 55:53

You know, he's he's got your interests at heart even when um those that are in leadership don't. He's got you.

SPEAKER_00 56:01

Yeah. And I and you know, I will say this, I want to say it for everybody to hear, but I mean I've said it before, I want to make sure everybody hears it. I don't have any ill will towards any of those people at the at the church that I came from. Yes, I was hurt and done extremely wrong, but I had to learn to to just let it go, to forgive. Just because I forgive does not mean you have to continue to sit at the same table. But I want it to be known that I I forgive those people. I don't want any anything bad to happen with them. In fact, I I genuinely pray for those people now. Yeah. Because I want God to open their eyes and to see what they're doing is wrong. And I I I pray that, you know, yeah, He has mercy on them.

SPEAKER_05 56:51

Amen to that. Because God won't be mocked, right?

SPEAKER_00 56:53

No.

SPEAKER_05 56:54

Um Anna, I think that's a good place to wrap up. Thanks so much for being on the show.

SPEAKER_00 56:58

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_05 56:58

Thank you for uh I know that a lot of this is probably painful to walk back through, but I but I also think, you know, we we heard from our brother Glenn last week and his struggles with addiction and stuff like that. It's tough to talk about, but it is just such a testament to God's grace. It is and the fact that he's sovereign and that he looks after his kids. Yeah, he cares about us. He wants us to walk in the light that is Christ's.

SPEAKER_00 57:21

I'm so so thankful. God has definitely blessed and been merciful, and I'm so glad that, you know, he kept me in between times from leaving one church and going to another and trying to figure everything out. And I'm just glad that he led me in the right direction.

SPEAKER_05 57:38

It's almost like his hand was on you.

SPEAKER_00 57:39

Almost.

SPEAKER_05 57:41

Hey, uh well, thank you for sharing that. Thank you for being on the show. Thank you so much. We'll have you back. We'll talk about some other stuff later on. But um, hey, if you got if any of you guys are out there and you're sitting under a cert uh a similar situation, just know that there is hope. There's a way out. There are people out there who have had those experiences that are willing to walk with you through it uh and and to see your way out of it. But ultimately know that the the way out of any of this stuff is is through the hope that is found in Christ. That is the whole reason that we we talk about these things, the whole reason we even do this podcast. Uh that Jesus Christ offers hope. He offers a plan of redemption and salvation, and that can be yours today. And so we want you to think about that. I want you to pray about that. All right. Nick Smith, love you, brother. Thank you for all you do. Love you too, brother. And for all you watching out there and supporting us. Thank you for that. Thank you for supporting us. If you want to financially support us, you can at patreon.com slash tofer brown. Uh, and every cent that you spend goes towards making this show happen. So thank you for that. And until next time, see ya.