The Topher Brown Show

BABIES DESERVE TO LIVE. PERIOD.

• Topher Brown - Nick Smith • Episode 21

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TODAY WE SIT DOWN WITH A COUPLE OF VERY SPECIAL GUESTS TO TALK ABOUT THE RECENT TERMINATION OF A PREGNANCY BY A YOUTUBER AND HIS WIFE. IS DOWN SYNDROME REALLY A GOOD ENOUGH REASON TO ROB THE WORLD OF A CHILD? IS ANY REASON? LET'S DISCUSS THAT.

SPEAKER_01

A famous YouTube couple just announced that they terminated their pregnancy after 20 weeks due to the baby being diagnosed with Down syndrome. As Christians and parents, we have thoughts, so let's discuss that. This is the Topher Brown Show. Hey everybody, welcome back to the Topher Brown show. Appreciate you listening wherever you're listening from, watching, wherever you're watching from. It's a beautiful day in the studio today. It's a little bit hot outside, but that's okay. We're going to survive. If anybody knows anything about summers in Mississippi, they're schizophrenic. So we'll be all right. We've got some uh deep stuff, deep theological, philosophical, and cultural things to talk about today. But before we get into any of that, gonna throw it over to my co-host and my real good friend, Mr. Nick Smith. Hey, bud. Hey, bud. Howdy, howdy, America.

SPEAKER_00

What's happening in there? How you doing? Oh, just fat and sassy, baby. Fat and sassy. Uh that's what I'm talking about. Now, just a uh a normal week, a lot of studio work, some gigs. Yeah. Uh late today. Uh that was uh unfortunate.

SPEAKER_01

Luckily, you have a uh a co-host that's real good at setting up gear and cameras and lights and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, he's a little late sometimes too, America.

SPEAKER_01

That's true. America.

SPEAKER_00

Uh any fishing, any fishing being done lately? Uh man, absolutely. Uh that's the Smitty way.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Uh catching some massive copper nose brim.

SPEAKER_01

Oh my gosh, dude. The picture that you showed me of that one specifically, uh it doesn't even look like a brim to me.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and I was catching those by the droves. I I was throwing them back because that's man, that's the genetics you want in the pond. That's exactly what you want. So they went right back in. I kept a couple of big ones, a couple of females, just because they were nowhere near beds and they're good to eat. Yeah. Um, but now speaking of big fish, I hear that somebody caught a pretty big fish out of Yopond.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I was literally pulling it up on my phone to show everybody because our really good friend Nathan, who we've talked about uh before on the show, and we've also uh are gauging his interest about coming on the show and talking about hunting and fishing. We're gonna do a hunting and fishing episode one of these days.

SPEAKER_00

That'd be awesome.

SPEAKER_01

If we can ever get past all this cultural rot. Um, he came out to the house yesterday and fished our little pond out there in the country and caught this guy. I don't know how how well you can see that, but that's about a three and a half pound fish that came out of my, I don't know how how big would you say my pond is, Nick?

SPEAKER_00

A half acre? A little closer to an acre, I think, actually.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Uh we so we knew that fish was in there. Um, it broke a line of mine and it got off of his hook one time. And yesterday after church, he said, Topher, I don't know if you're aware of this, but I plan on staying after church and coming over to your house and catching that fish.

SPEAKER_00

Well, you know, I'm he did. I I didn't realize that we could just pull out our phones and show people fish on the camera. So here's mine, America.

SPEAKER_01

Hey.

SPEAKER_00

Uh put put in the comments below whose fish is best. Uh well, two different species.

SPEAKER_01

Come on.

SPEAKER_00

There's a 100 cent prize for whoever gets the best one.

SPEAKER_01

100 cent. Wow, that's amazing. All right. So uh enough of that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, we we have some serious topics to talk about today.

SPEAKER_01

This isn't actually the hunting and fishing podcast, uh, as we've said many times. Uh, we're gonna talk about some some somewhat serious stuff, not somewhat serious stuff, very serious stuff today. And um, that is, I don't know, Nick, have you seen uh what's been going on in the latest news? There's a YouTube couple, I believe the guy's name is Jesse Ridgeway, I don't know his wife's name, but they they announced on YouTube, uh, and they're very popular. They got that uh hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of subscribers. Millions, I'm being told by the person sitting across from me, um, that uh they they went on YouTube and they announced that they were pregnant. Uh they were gonna, you know, take take YouTube along for the ride.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I'm I'm familiar with what you're talking with. Um, you know, I I kind of make it my goal and my position on this podcast to be the unbiased one. So I chose not to. But I've heard a lot of uh water coolers speak about it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And so just to kind of give you a little, you know, 10,000 foot view of what happened, uh they they went ahead and ran the test to see if there would be if there were any genetic markers for any abnormalities in the baby, came back that the baby likely uh was going to have Down syndrome, and the couple made the unfortunate decision to terminate the pregnancy um based on that diagnosis. And um I know that you have a special needs child, and I and I really am interested in your perspective on stuff like this.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01

Um so we'll we'll get there, but man, I don't I don't know. When I when I heard about this for the first time, it just it struck a chord with me, uh, struck a nerve. Uh, not not just as a Christian, because I have lots of uh opinions about that based on scripture, but as a parent, as a father, absolutely, yeah. Um it just breaks your heart, man, because I know uh we have a we have a good friend, Mr. Charles Derrick, who has a uh a child with Down syndrome. Yeah, and that's one of the most loving children I've ever encountered in my life.

SPEAKER_00

The best boss hog I've ever seen.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. Um, and so you know, I I also would be interested in his perspective on this. I think he would probably have a pretty genuine um perspective. But uh anyway, we're gonna talk about all of that today. And in order to do that kind of more clearly and uh with as much detail as we possibly can, we've actually invited two guests to be on the show today. And uh one of them is uh my best friend, sorry, Nick. So sorry. Uh the other one's a real good friend, no offense. Um and uh, well, here they are. This is my wife Lake right here in the white.

SPEAKER_02

Hi.

SPEAKER_01

And this is our very good friend, Miss Skylar James, over here in the black. Did you guys coordinate the black and white today?

SPEAKER_03

We didn't. I actually had white on first. Oh, did you? I should have stuck with that.

SPEAKER_01

So if you're wondering why my wife's uh arm is extended and off frame, it's because we have a third guest over there uh just out of shot, and I'll insert that footage right here. This is Miss Mariah, and she's on the podcast today too, whether she wanted to be or not. So this is the this is the what you do when you're when you're parents and of a six-month-old, you just they're they're with you everywhere you go.

SPEAKER_04

Yep. Correct.

SPEAKER_01

If you hear some uh some some screaming and crying and whining, and and if my wife all of a sudden runs off a frame, uh you'll know why.

SPEAKER_00

Uh it's gonna be mostly sweet cooing. Come on. Yes, I was gonna say cooing. She's the most well-mannered baby I've ever seen in my life.

SPEAKER_02

Well see.

SPEAKER_00

That's because you don't live at our house.

SPEAKER_01

Well, that's true. Uh, but you don't live at our house, so uh you may change your mind. Might change your mind. Uh but anyway, this is my wife, Lake Brown, Virginia Lake Brown, as she's known on Facebook. And uh she is an LPN, and so she's got some um, she has got a medical professional exp uh perspective to share with us. And then this is Skylar James, she is uh a dear friend of ours, performs with us at church uh and in other places. Great singer. She's also the wife of our uh pastor and friend of the show, friend of the podcast, Mr. Chris James. Um, and but I've actually known you longer than no, I'll take that back. I've known Chris, I I've known Chris longer than you, but uh so interestingly, the way that God brought y'all together.

SPEAKER_03

But I've known Lake longer than you.

SPEAKER_01

That's true, that is true.

SPEAKER_03

How weird.

SPEAKER_01

Boy, that's really weird. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00

And I knew who Chris was longer, but I I've known Skylar longer. Yes, yeah, just because of music and all that. Right.

SPEAKER_02

And also Skylar is an RN. That's right. Sorry, I forgot to mention that.

SPEAKER_01

You are an RN.

SPEAKER_00

Medical professional people.

SPEAKER_01

Two medical professionals and two uh masters of none on the show. Uh and me and Nick. But speak for yourself, brother. Uh the reason that we wanted to have you two on the show is because um this is an area that both of you I know are passionate in uh lake because you and I are passionate about this and we talk about it all often. And then Skylar, uh, we've also had our conversations about this. Um we're all very passionate about this uh this particular subject because it deals with children, and children are the most vulnerable and the most innocent among us. And so whenever something like this happens, um it causes a stir in the culture, and what which is really interesting, uh, and we'll talk about that, we'll get into that more, but it's causing a stir in the culture right now. Surprisingly, it's also drawing lines between some people who are pro-choice because of the nature of this particular abortion. Uh, of course, we know where we stand on the pro-life side of these arguments, but we're gonna get into a little bit of the of the meat of it today. So um it's probably no secret to anybody listening to the show what our stance is on abortion, but we're gonna talk about it from a uh a perspective of grace today, because we don't know uh who listening right now may have had experience with this. And we also want you to know that if you have had an abortion or been part of someone having an abortion, that um look, there's there's grace and forgiveness for you that is found in Jesus Christ, and and hopefully um, you know, you've already taken advantage of that grace and hope, but and if and forgiveness. But if not, just know that we're not coming at this at a place of condemnation. Uh we are simply speaking on behalf of the children. Amen.

SPEAKER_03

And you are loved and your babies loved, yes, and try to find a local church that will help you.

SPEAKER_02

A lot of women carry wounds from that that they often never speak about. Um and it's important to know there's there's healing and forgiveness in Jesus.

SPEAKER_03

And the the church is there for people that are considering and maybe end up pregnant that are in crisis. There are crisis pregnancy centers all around the state. I volunteered at one for nursing school and they're just amazing. If you go through their program, you get like points instead of money, and then you get the points that you get, you get to go downstairs, and they have clothes and diapers and car seats and breast pumps and and all sorts of stuff that and they they will try to connect you with a doctor that can help you through the pregnancy. And they'll try to help you if you want to do adoption. They've done adoption. There's so many crisis pregnant crisis pregnancy around the state. And then I just call out for the church to be more step up. Yeah, we have to step up and be involved and not shun women that that get pregnant, that aren't married, yes, that are young, that I mean you everybody I don't always say I tell people I don't use the word mistakes. I think mistake is an accident. Um it's decisions. We all make decisions and choices in our lives, and we're gonna make wrong decisions and right decisions. And just because you made maybe the wrong decision doesn't mean that you're condemned. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02

And church or you don't deserve help.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, and good churches that that don't that won't sit there and condemn you will help you. Yeah, they will help.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03

And including our church. Yes, including ours. Definitely.

SPEAKER_01

And so one of the uh because of all the backlash, and we'll talk about, I guess we'll talk a little bit about this the specific instance that we're referring to, the whole reason we're having this conversation. What and for those of you uh listening, we've actually been talking about having this conversation for a long time now, but this seems to be um a moment in time in the culture that you know kind of expedited this this conversation. And so I think we should at least talk a little bit about the the couple um who you know this is all kind of built around. Um they went on YouTube and announced that they were pregnant, they're gonna take the viewers along with them on the journey. Uh they sent away for the tests to check for the markers, and uh it was a possibility they kind of said uh there's a possibility it might come back positive.

SPEAKER_03

Which those tests are not always they're not super reliable, as we know. Yeah, so many couples have gotten that false positive.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. What what what kind of markers exactly are we using?

SPEAKER_03

Trisomy 21 is um down the down syndrome marker.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so on the ultrasound, there is um the NT is what they look for, and they're soft markers for Down syndrome, and there's the NT, which is nucle translucence something, um something along that line. But anyway, those are the soft markers, and then if that is um positive, if those markers are found, then they can do um a blood test and they can also do amniocentesis, which is where they take a sample of the amniotic fluid. Right. Which is pretty much dangerous. They they don't like to do it. Yeah, they don't like to do that. That's the final step because it's kind of it can be risky.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and sometimes necessary though.

SPEAKER_02

But that's kind of the the most definitive way that we have to determine if um if those markers can be like how they can be confirmed as the amniosentesis.

SPEAKER_00

So the first markers are basically for Down syndrome, um, and then if something comes back as a positive marker, then they dive deeper with a blood test.

SPEAKER_02

That's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_03

And then they do the amniocentesis to take that if the couple doesn't if they want to.

SPEAKER_02

Well, if the couple wants to, and if they don't just already choose to abort to abort after and a lot of times they are encouraged to after the first test.

SPEAKER_01

And so what was this couple um did they go fur after they found out that it was positive, they did they do the further blood test?

SPEAKER_02

They did the blood test and they did the amniosynthesis. So they were pretty much confirmed that this baby was gonna have Down syndrome.

SPEAKER_01

Gotcha. Uh but we've also seen examples of uh I saw a comment on their, you know, kind of pushback to the pushback video of a lady who said that she went through the whole process and the doctors told her that her child was gonna have Down syndrome, and that child was perfectly normal.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Yeah. And that is not uncommon. It's not uncommon. I mean, you have I I can't what was it that Tim Tebow, his mother was taught she was she was told to abort that he was gonna die, he wouldn't, he wouldn't make it. And I mean, look at him now.

SPEAKER_02

So I have read countless testimonies of women who got uh, you know, a guaranteed diagnosis and then chose to have the baby anyway, and baby was born perfectly healthy.

SPEAKER_03

In medicine, I think we can both say nurses, doctors, uh hospital administration, in medicine just in general, it can only go so far. It can only go so far, but then they they think that it it gets to a point where they're like, well, no, this is a hundred percent, this is a hundred percent. It's like you're in in our view, it's like you're not God. You don't you don't know what God can do. And it they get too confident, too confident in things. And um when you're a believer, you can't be confident. I don't think I think we we talked about this yesterday, or Christopher talked about this yesterday. You don't trust in your own understanding, right? And medicine a lot of times will trust too much in its own understanding. Now, I'm not saying medicine's not reliable, medicine is has made it to where we can save babies at a very um early stage where um many years ago we couldn't.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, but it's the most reliable resource that we have, yes, it is.

SPEAKER_03

But it's not fail-proof. No, it's not, and but the most reliable resource that we have, I can't say resource, sorry, is is our Lord. So that is I agree.

SPEAKER_01

Amen to that. So, Nick, you had you are the father of a special needs child. Correct. Did you guys go through that process as well of checking for genetic markers and all that? What was your experience in that?

SPEAKER_00

No, there were there were no checks for genetic markers, you know, and I'm not sure that that was even a thing 17 years ago. Um, we found out through uh sonograms.

SPEAKER_01

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00

Um uh we went in for a sonogram, everything was fine the first first time through. Um we went back. Michelle was she was massive. Uh her stomach. So we're you're about to get me away. Michelle, oh my god, okay, yeah. Her abdomen was massive.

SPEAKER_03

Like her It was she was measuring pregnant belly. She was measuring too far. Like it was it was abnormal. Right. Would you say?

SPEAKER_00

Um so then we go in to do another sonogram. There's no they can't even hardly see the baby. There's so much amniotic fluid. Oh, okay, yeah. So then we do a um what was the word you used earlier? Amniocentesis. Amniocentesis. We did that um to drain some fluid so they could actually get a better look. Um so we did that, and that's when they notified us like, hey, something's not right. They didn't get serious with us, uh, which kind of really disappointed me because we kind of had to find out some hard facts later. We'd have had a lot better chance of preparing for this. But they did tell us that he had a a back set jaw. His jaw was like basically in his throat. Um so we kind of go through that whole process of, you know, well, this is this is gonna be okay. We're we're gonna figure this out. Um nothing really pops up um other than hey, it's it's time to have the baby and it's a little early. You know, we we were we were pretty early. I can't tell you exactly how many weeks it's been so long. Um but we wind up going to the hospital um to McComb. And McComb is not equipped for life or death situations when it comes to to prenatal care. I and you know, maybe that might have changed now. Uh, but they told us, hey, you you need to go to UMC. So they ship us up to UMC super fast.

SPEAKER_03

Um she was still pregnant at this point? Correct.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. Um we I mean, we saw so many people that gave us absolutely zero hope. Wow. It was um It's kind of hard to hold back the emotion for this. Go ahead. Um we we were made to feel hopeless. Wow and that there was not much of a chance, and there was no positive news. There was no, hey, like this is something you can actually handle. It was this is gonna be a life-altering, your life will never be the same conversations. Um and we were we were given opportunity after opportunity. Um and and definitely nobody ever outright came out and said, Hey, you you should abort this, you you should change this situation for the better. Nobody ever out just outright said that, but you felt it in every conversation.

SPEAKER_04

Wow.

SPEAKER_00

Would that have been an a even a possibility at that late stage? You know, I don't know. And that's that's that's uh because I don't know what the abortion laws were for.

SPEAKER_03

I don't think so in Mississippi. Um you could in uh in in other states, but I don't think even 17 years ago, she was already in her I mean she was third trimester definitely. I don't take it.

SPEAKER_00

But with him being that early, um I think we were like just barely in third trimester. Okay. Because we were we were in the NQ for a good three months. Um he was he was born premature, a lot of stuff. You know, he was born with no ears, he has no ear canal, um, jawset, far back. Um what is the condition called? It's called treachery collin syndrome. And it's it's a wide array, you know. I mean, you have a a wide spectrum for uh Down syndrome as well, but um not as wide. There's kids that are born with I mean zero facial structure, and then there's some that are born that have pretty much everything, but like cheekbones are set back. It can be a wide array of things, and there are some there's some mental aspects that go with it too, but nothing that I believe is considered like delayed cognitively, right? Um, it's more emotionally. Gotcha. They they have a different state of mind.

SPEAKER_02

And how how rare, isn't it very rare?

SPEAKER_00

It was at one point, but I think that after research, we're finding out that it's um more common than we thought. Yeah, because we were told like this is like getting. Struck by lightning twice.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

That's what we were told. And then as we kind of fall into a community of people on Facebook who are also going through the same thing, it's a completely different situation. Like I I think it's like you would you you would hear like one in a million being like a big number, but I think it's actually like closer to something around the park of one in a hundred thousand. It's I would have to do the research on that, but that's just an example.

SPEAKER_02

It's still pretty dang rare. Yes, it is.

SPEAKER_01

And so um I'm sure that you guys were were panicking a little bit, but let's just for the sake of the time sake of time, let's just kind of push forward a little bit. So uh your son's your son is now 17 years old, is that correct? Correct. And and thriving. And thriving. Uh he's a he's a creative m mind, he's a musician, he's all these things. So, okay, juxtapose your position with the position that this couple is in right now, if you had opportunities to abort, you you had people that were not so subtly encouraging you to do so. I'm sure these people did too. The difference is is that you guys chose to to push through, and and here you are today. So what what is your um whenever you look at this situation with this couple going on? Um what do you think how how do you think your life would have been different had you guys chosen not to have your baby?

SPEAKER_00

Um misery, regret, um, always wondering what might have been. And here's the thing, it you use the term your baby. Um, I I I don't adhere to that. He's he's not my child, he's God's child. Amen. Amen. Um, and he deserved every right to fight for his own life. Yeah, and he deserved every right for his parents to fight for his life. Amen. And had we not done that, the joy that we would have missed out on, yeah, having such a smart kid and and talented kid and sweet kid and all the things, yeah, um, getting to experience his salvation.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, yep.

SPEAKER_00

Um, we we would have missed out on all of that. And you know, there were extremely hard times. Sure, we skipped forward, but there were years of just surgeries and hospital visits. I mean, anguish for all sides, but mostly for him. Yeah, but it's tough on parents too, y'all. But the thing is, is I I wouldn't trade a single bit of that. There are so many people in my life that I've been able to take our situation and use that as a witness tool.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And and just a therapy tool in general to help other people through hard times. And had I not been able to experience that and learn from that and gain that knowledge and receive that grace from God, then I wouldn't be able to pass it on to anybody else. I would just be just a ball of regret.

SPEAKER_01

And we all uh, you know, our our little community all would have been um robbed of the chance to to have your your kid in our lives. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? He's got a little community built around him. You know, he's a he's a little songwriter composer, and I've gotten to work on a couple of his songs, and it's just like it's just so cool to watch the br his brain and the way that it works when it comes to his creative abilities.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

It's so neat. Um, we would have been robbed of that. You guys would have been robbed of that had you decided to to go the other way. And um that brings up kind of the the the other half of this conversation, which is and I'll defer to y'all, y'all are the the medical professionals. What are the statistics? Uh let's break down a little bit the statistics of people uh in the US, I guess just within a year that that have abortions, and then let's talk about the amount of people who abort uh potentially Down syndrome babies or babies with abnormalities.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. Um so there is at least a million abortions that happen every year.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, in the US. I think I think it was like uh 2600 a day. Oh wow. I think that was what it was all about. Something roughly like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_03

A huge, huge number. And when you calculate it, we talked about this. If you calculate um in I said millennials because we're part of the millennial. Um that if you calculate the number of abortions that were within the millennial years and how many millennials there are, the rough numbers, um, roughly about one-third of the population was aborted. Yes.

SPEAKER_01

That's like genocidal type numbers. Absolutely is.

SPEAKER_03

And we talked about how um uh Mother Teresa went to the she was at the White House back when uh Clinton was in uh was the president, and Hillary Clinton looked at her and said, Um, why do you think we've never had a woman president? And Mother Teresa said, We probably aborted her. We probably aborted her.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Too shame, Mother Teresa. Yeah, come on. Um, so is there a differentiation now? Or do I do we have the numbers in terms of people who have aborted children who were potentially uh genetically deficient? Do we know those numbers?

SPEAKER_02

So approximately 1.2% of abortions are due to fetal abnormality, which would be any kind of malformation or diagnosis, pre prenatal diagnosis.

SPEAKER_01

And so the justification here on on their part, on Jesse Ridgway and his wife's part, was and I believe I I'm I'm paraphrasing here because I don't have it pulled up, but they said something to the to the degree of uh, you know, we made the best we made the best decision we could faced with an impossible decision. We made the best decision that we could.

SPEAKER_02

For our family.

SPEAKER_01

For our family. Which is like the most ironic statement in the world. You just killed part of your family.

SPEAKER_03

Um He used like um when it was the pushback, he used that that um Down syndrome children, you know, have they got heart defects and cognitive delay. Yeah, cognitive delays, emotional, emotional, behavioral problems, and that's all the things we could. And he said they have an S-word. It's not it's not a blessing, it's an S-word existence. Existence. He said it's objectively. Yeah, an S-word existence. And that's where a lot of Down syndrome families and down, especially Down syndrome mamas, yeah, came in and were like, my child is not doesn't have an S-word existence.

SPEAKER_01

You're what what I've noticed, and y'all might have too, is you're drawing a line straight down the middle of pro-choice people now. Like you're not, it's not, it's now not just pro-life against pro-choice, because there are a ton of pro-choice people out there who have Down syndrome kids or kids with abnormalities who that guy just alienated by saying that. And so there's a the backlash is real and it's warranted because not just because he had an abortion, but because of the type of abortion they had, because of the information.

SPEAKER_02

And how far along.

SPEAKER_01

How far along. So the child was halfway there. 21 weeks.

SPEAKER_03

21 weeks. Well, it's it's practicing eugenics.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, it's it's eugenics. You're 100%. You're uh you think that you need to eliminate part basically he was saying this is an S-word existence. If you think that, then obviously you think that this I mean, I shouldn't say what I think he thinks, but in that statement, it seems like you are pretty much saying that these people shouldn't exist. Their existence is crappy. And so they just shouldn't exist. So this whole percentage of the population or this whole, this whole these whole people should not exist. Yeah, because they might have challenges. Yeah, because they might have challenges, or the ones that do, obviously, he's saying that's an S-word existence. And so I'm he's not saying I'm I mean, he didn't preface it by saying I'm not talking about ones that are just unborn or ones that are born. He just said it's an S-word existence. So I'm like, okay, well, obviously you're talking about everyone. Yeah. So you think none of them should exist. No, nobody with Down syndrome should exist, or nobody with these problems should exist. And I'm like, that's that's the definition of eugenics.

SPEAKER_01

At the very uh most generous I could be to him, it was an incredibly boneheaded thing to say. Of course, yes. Like, Nick, you could probably attest to this uh more than more so than I know, but uh people that have special needs kids, they eat, sleep, live, and breathe their special needs kids because they've had to alter their lives around the uh for the betterment of their child. And so when you start talking about people's kids like that, yeah, yeah, oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03

A problem I have with the pro-abortion side is is that it's all about you. It's all about what you want, I want, I it's what I want, I feel. And as parents, you know, I have five kids. I gave birth to three of them, not to two of them, but they're mine. Y'all have you've three, Nick, you're a parent. It it it becomes you become it becomes more than just yourself. Yes, your life isn't just about you anymore, and that might not be for everyone. Right. That might not be for everyone. If you don't want to be a parent, okay, that's fine, but you can't deny that when you have children, special needs or not, that it becomes more yes, life becomes more than just you.

SPEAKER_02

And I think that you know, that's by God's design because it gets us outside of ourself, of course, um, and reflects Christ's love directly. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Well that that statement, that S-word statement, that is the definition of self. Because this man doesn't know that. He doesn't know what it's like to be in the mind of a Down syndrome person. What that statement is, is an excuse to not take responsibility. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

He didn't want a S-word existence for himself. He didn't want the inconvenience. Again, I'm not trying to project what I think he thinks.

SPEAKER_00

Um, because either side of that fence of what he thinks, it's still extremely selfish. Yeah. And he made it pretty clear in his post.

SPEAKER_03

Like, we don't want to deal with this, we're gonna try again for a for a better one. Well, like I said earlier, having a baby is not build-a-bear. You can't that's right. This is not build-a bear.

SPEAKER_01

You don't get to decide that analogy. If you are a an online personality who's out front in the public eye, and you make definitive statements like this, you open yourself up to scrutiny.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, you know, Nick and I have, you know, we've been very, very um communicative with each other about this with our little platform that when you get out there, when you put your opinions and your life and all that stuff out there, you open yourself up to potential criticism. And we've had very little of that, but we have had some, and it's and it was kind of a uh an eye-opener for us. Um, but when you put definitive statements out there like that, you are now opening yourself up for the backlash, and the response to the backlas from them has been handled very, very poorly. Very poorly. Yeah. How has it been handled? Um, they they're in shock and disbelief that anybody would disagree with what they did.

SPEAKER_03

They made a statement, uh, he made a statement, he was like, I've never seen, and he's talking about a lot of you know, religious people. He's uh because I and I'm sure a lot of religious people made um, and non-religious people made a lot of hurtful comments that were not like with grace and everything. And because what we're saying here is not trying to be yeah, it's not helpful. But he was like, I've never seen so many um people basically attacking two people that are grieving the loss of their unborn child, yeah. And everybody was like, You're not grieving a loss, you're you chose, you did it. Like you chose an abortion. You this she was 21 weeks pregnant, so that means that they had to um rip the baby apart, basically, yeah, to to get every piece of the baby out of her. They um I I'm not sure they didn't go into what process was used, but usually, you know, in a second trimester abortion, they you don't you're not taking a pill and just having the baby. No, they have to they have to do needle remove it. They oh stop the baby's heart, yeah. Stop the baby's heart, so kill them, and then go in and rip the baby apart with um tongs, yeah, pull legs, pull arms. Yep. Sometimes if the head won't come out, crush the head and pull the head out. I know that's very difficult.

SPEAKER_01

If you think this is gruesome, this is what takes place.

SPEAKER_03

It is what takes place.

SPEAKER_01

It's very important to understand how they go, but they don't they don't like to talk about that stuff. No. But that's the reality of what it is.

SPEAKER_03

If you watch, if you watch one, they uh I'm and I don't watch them, I don't want to, but if you if you you can look up so many different um former abortionists that will talk about a second trimester abortion and pulling legs out and pulling arms out and then having to crush the skull.

SPEAKER_01

And at twenty weeks, is this baby fully formed baby. So physically, yeah, they're still working on the body. Those nerve endings can feel what is happening. Yes, that's that is breaking. That should that should cause that should shake everyone's foundation who hears it.

SPEAKER_02

It's it's not um it's very violent. It's very violent, yes. And it's not uh the baby is not m fully mature like a newborn baby, but it has all of its organs, um, all of its organ systems functioning, it can feel, it can, it has brainwaves, dreams, it can suck it suck its thumb, yawn, like it's a it's very baby.

SPEAKER_03

I can't remember when it was that a female baby has all her eggs. Yeah, it's it's really soon. It's in the first trimester. It's in the first trimester. So not only do you have that baby, but the female has all her eggs. All of her eggs that she will have her eggs. Yes. Because a female is born with all of her eggs that she will ever have. You carry basically your the egg of your grandchildren.

SPEAKER_04

Wow.

SPEAKER_02

And our our daughters now are carrying the eggs that will hopefully someday be our grandchildren.

SPEAKER_00

Divine in nature. That's that's fascinating. I've never even heard that me either.

SPEAKER_03

And they're born with all your eggs. Yep.

SPEAKER_01

So I think we would be remiss though if we didn't at least talk about a little bit of what scripture says. Uh, because, you know, the um pro pro-choice people and you know, this couple made the the comments that you know they're receiving death threats and things like that. First of all, let me just say stop that.

SPEAKER_03

That's horrible. Like you like, it's not helpful in any capacity. That's evil. That's evil.

SPEAKER_01

That does not change or make better the situation in any way, shape, or form. And if you are a Christian, you know better.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Stop making death threats. This is this is ridiculous, especially if you're a pro-life person.

SPEAKER_02

We're supposed to pray that the Holy Spirit comes to them and I also think that, you know, even though it was their choice and everything, I I do think that they're probably experience a experiencing a level of grief. Of course. Because they they did just lose a child, whether it was by their hand or not.

SPEAKER_00

It it was their, you know, well the fact of the matter is, is it it sounds like the way that y'all talked about this, that even before they knew that they were having a Down syndrome child, that they were already putting this public and and sharing this journey. So that tells me that that yes, that they did want a child and they were excited about that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, they they did their gender reveal online. I mean, they were ecstatic. Yeah. And that's that's part of the reason it's been so shocking, is because um they've done it, they did everything so openly. They even read their test results um in front of a camera and you know, posted it, uh, their their live reaction or whatever.

SPEAKER_00

And I I grieve for them because I mean they've they've made a decision that is irreversible.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_00

This this is something that will, you know, no matter how good they feel about making the right decision, this will always be a point of pain for them in their life and a struggle. And if they're not Christ followers, when they do become a Christ follower, that is gonna be a hard thing to let control of and give to God.

SPEAKER_01

That's exactly right. And if they never come to know the hope that's found in Christ before they leave this earth, they'll still have to stand before him. Right. And that's that's what breaks my heart is the um that's one of the things that breaks my heart in this terrible situation is that you make this decision, you never repent, you never uh receive forgiveness, you never s receive salvation from Christ, and then you have to stand before him at the great white throne of judgment and account for those things without having the blood of Christ that covers you, without having your name written in the Lamb's book of life. It's it's an eternity separated from God for you. At the end of the day, you could say that that is the most heartbreaking part of this because that baby is with the Lord.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

That baby is with the Lord now. Um, the moment that baby was taken out of his mother's womb and and terminated, his the moment that little baby's life was terminated, it was present before the Lord. Down syndrome or not, that baby is with the Lord right now, and we can rejoice in that, but we have to we have to pray that God's kindness would lead his parents to repentance before before their life is up on this earth. But pro-choice people will make the argument all the time. Well, the Bible never explicitly says abortion is wrong. Uh, but this is a this is a silly argument, and and for pro-choice people out there, please don't make this argument because it is so immediately dismantled that it's it's ridiculous. There's so many things that Jesus was silent about, but but it doesn't mean that Jesus that God did not have an opinion on these things.

SPEAKER_03

There's a difference between description and prescription in the Bible. Just because something is in the Bible or is not doesn't mean that it's good and holy. We see that with so many things like polygamy. Yes. Uh I mean mu uh I Ali Beth Stecky was the one that says she's like mo wives, mo problems. We see that in the Bible. Right. Because God did not, he that is not just because it's in there does not mean that he's condoning it.

SPEAKER_00

Correct. So yeah, I mean, there's nothing in the Bible about insider trading. But uh Nancy Pelosi, uh, you're stealing QR theme. Thou shalt not steal. Correct.

SPEAKER_02

But there is tons of pro-life scripture that we can represent.

SPEAKER_03

But the biggest thing is what we were talking about before the show. The savior of the world came as in the womb, in the woman.

SPEAKER_02

It is a sacred and should be a protected God used the womb to bring forth the savior of the world, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02

And there's really nothing else as far as Christians um that we need to know other than that, that Jesus came in the womb of a woman.

SPEAKER_01

That's correct. But even though the Bible doesn't explicitly say anything about abortion, it talks about the sanctity of life.

SPEAKER_04

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

And how fought how God feels about children in the womb. Of course. And it also talks about how God feels about murder. And if you are taking someone's life taking Unjustly, of course. Unjust. If you are taking the life of a child in the womb intentionally, it's murder.

SPEAKER_02

Isn't there scripture that says that when it's listing things that God hates, the hands that shed innocent blood is one? I can't remember where that is, but that's that's in there too. And that kind of covers who is more innocent who so innocent that is that sounds to me like people who perform abortions, that it couldn't be any more direct there.

SPEAKER_00

That's that's a life that cannot defend itself. No, correct.

SPEAKER_01

Of course, we know that God created us in his own image. Genesis 127 says it. God created us in his own image, and women are the bearer of the image bearers of God. And to rip that image bearer of God from the womb is an egregious act. Um, you know, God uh the scriptures also talk about Jeremiah uh in Psalms, Jeremiah and on several times, yeah, that God knew us in the womb. In the womb. Romans goes on goes even further to say that before you were in your mother's womb, God knew you.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Um Jeremiah 1 5 says, Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Before you were born, I set you apart.

SPEAKER_01

There you go. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02

What more do we need to know?

SPEAKER_01

Pre-Romans. Yeah, way pre-Romans.

SPEAKER_03

The pro abortion side uses my body, my choice.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And it's it's basically it's a perversion of the scriptures where um Jesus says, This is this is my body broken for you. Yes. This is my blood spilt for you.

SPEAKER_02

Well, the language is the same. It's like it's hard to believe that it's not purposefully a perversion of that. Yeah, saying my body, my choice about it. My body, my choice about me. My body broken for you. Yes.

SPEAKER_03

And and people, and not saying every person that has an abortion says this, but when you think about abortion, it would be like, You must die so I can live my life. But Christ said, I will die so that you can live. Right.

SPEAKER_01

And what did John the Baptist say? He said, I must decrease so that he can increase. Um, my my wonderful, beautiful wife actually wrote the scripture out right here for me. I didn't have to look it up, but Luke uh 1, 41 through 44. Here we have the depiction of uh John the Baptist in the womb and Jesus in the womb. Mary pregnant with Jesus visits Elizabeth pregnant with John the Baptist and he leaps for joy in Elizabeth's womb upon hearing Mary's voice.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And I think that it talks about, doesn't it say that um Jesus was a first trimester fetus and John the Baptist was a second trimester fetus at the time? Yes. Yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_03

So how cool is that the first person to rejoice, besides you would say Mary, I guess, because you knew she was pregnant. No, the the the first per person to rejoice at our Savior was another fetus. I say baby. But baby, yeah, fetus only means um offspring, so you know.

SPEAKER_01

While scripture doesn't explicitly say, hey, abortion is wrong, it absolutely points toward how important life is in the womb specifically. We we see this, and what non-Christians will say is, well, that's the Bible, I don't care what the scriptures say. Uh but unfortunately for you, non-Christian who who has that opinion, um, it doesn't make it any less true whether you believe it or not. The fact of the matter is the morality that we all have ingrained within us to not murder and not steal and not so on and so forth, is given to us by our creator. It is indwelt within us upon creation. Yeah. Whether you believe that or not is of no consequence. It is still true.

SPEAKER_02

It says it's written on the hearts of men.

SPEAKER_03

So speaking, you know, I I like to, like I told, like, I like to come at things more of like a scientific um point of view because a lot of people will be like, well, I don't care what the Bible says, I don't believe the Bible. And um, you know, so if you come at it from from more of a science, you know, they'll say, Well, it's not a human being. Well, first of all, that's that's not true. Every embryology textbook will tell you that it's a human, just like if two giraffes are if a giraffe is pregnant, she's uh automatically pregnant with giraffes. It's a human. It's a human. Your your argument's not a person yet deserving of rights. And I'm like, why? What's the difference? Right. Well, they they can't they can't serve location and and development. So that's the only difference. It's fully developed. They'll say, um Mariah can't survive without children.

SPEAKER_02

A baby two-year-old can't survive without children. Yes, a two-year-old's not fully developed, you know. A teenager is not fully developed. So the development is not what make us makes us human or worthy of protection.

SPEAKER_03

No, it doesn't. And and to be excited, like we talked about, excited for one person that has a baby celebrating somebody that's having an abortion is just so philosophically inconsistent to me. Right. Or somebody that's having a miscarriage, oh, I'm so sorry you lost your baby. Yes. Oh, well, you're having abortion. Well, it's not a baby, it's just a clump of sales. And then this I'm like, well, is it a baby or just a clump of sales? You can't just say you can't just define life and what's worthy by what you want.

SPEAKER_01

So let's that's right.

SPEAKER_03

Wantedness is not what makes us human either.

SPEAKER_01

So let's boil it down to the heart of the issue as we're wrapping up here. At the end of the day, um I I I believe that the decision that this couple made was based not upon, as they claim, what was best for their family, but what what was convenient for their family. What was convenient for their lives. So at the end of the day, um, it is my belief that most abortions, the vast majority of of abortions, are done for this very reason.

SPEAKER_02

96% are elective, yes, um, and not for any specific reasons.

SPEAKER_01

So at the at the heart of this issue is pride uh and selfishness are at the heart of this issue. Children are the most vulnerable among us, they have to be protected. Children with developmental issues are even more vulnerable than those and need even more protection. Whether you're a believer, whether you're pro-choice or pro-life, this should shake your foundations and it should get you to have these deep philosophical debates within your own mind about what is moral in this situation and what is not. Is it moral to remove a the potential of life from this earth because uh it's quote unquote better for your family? Or is it worse for that potential life to be removed from this earth? I would argue that because you are not God, you don't get to make these decisions, whether or not a government tells you it's legal or not. Yeah. That is my my personal opinion, and I'll say that boldly.

SPEAKER_02

They kind of came at the Jesse and his wife, they kind of came at it from a a perspective of, well, this is this is for this is mercy for our child. We didn't want our child to suffer. Like Nick was saying earlier, nobody can nobody has the right to make a claim like that, because we know that Down syndrome people are some of the happiest, um, warmest people that that exists. And everyone And nobody has nobody can make that call but a Down syndrome person as to whether they they believe their life is worth living.

SPEAKER_03

And everyone with disability or no disability will suffer at some point in this world because we live in a fallen world. That that doesn't mean that we eliminate people the ones we think might suffer. Yes. Yeah. And it it just is heartbreaking.

SPEAKER_00

Well, you know, to to kind of build on that a little bit, um, not only do we not have the right to make that decision for them, we don't have the right to make that decision for ourselves. We are not our own.

SPEAKER_01

And we're called to be servants anyway. So we're we're called to to die to ourselves, take up our cross and follow Christ. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Also, disabilities can happen at any time. You could so it's it's like your child could be fine. You could your child could be born fine, you could be fine. I could leave here today, get in a god forbid, get in a car crash and and be disabled.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, does that make my life worthless?

SPEAKER_03

Right. I mean, your child can be born fine and then something can happen and they become disabled. Does that make them worthless? No, right. It's not, you're not worthless.

SPEAKER_01

It's a philosophical argument that I think um, you know, even the early church uh was doing a little research on this, even the early church, first and second century, called abortion an abomination.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

We're talking about 1900 years ago, the early church was stood firmly against this. Here's the thing though, to wrap to wrap this up. If you're out there right now and and you're struggling with this philosophical debate, because it that's what it is, it's a philosophical debate that we're having right now in the culture of whether or not these things should be allowed or or prohibited or whatever, whether they're moral or not. Um what you can't deny is that a life or at least the potential of life was removed from the planet. And if we can just remove children from this planet because they're gonna be an inconvenience for us, um, there's a deeper moral issue here. And it's a heart issue. Um, and at the end of the day, Jesus wants your heart. Um, and I promise you, for those of you who are struggling out there with this, if you open the scriptures and read the heart of God, it's gonna be a lot clearer to you as to where we should land on this issue.

SPEAKER_03

And I think that Lake and I would both like to say to all the as being women, yeah, to all the women out there, if you have had an abortion, if you're considering an abortion, um, you are loved, your baby's loved. Um, like I said at the beginning of this, find a church, find help. There are yes, come to me. I love there are there are resources. You don't have to you don't have to go down that road. Um, it's not a great thing. It's not this wonderful thing that should be celebrated and just get help. You are loved, you will not be judged. There is help, and and definitely, even if you don't want anything to do with the church, the church still can help you. They can.

SPEAKER_02

Uh and if you can't care for a child, if you're financially strained or disabled or whatever the case may be, there there is help. You adoption is always an option.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, just find there are resources out there, find help. If you have a child now, you have a baby, you know, there's been babies that have been putting dumpsters and everything, and it's just horrible. And people have been like, Well, that's what happens when there's not abortion available. And it's like, that's not the answer. This there's a deeper problem here. Like this, there's a deeper issue here, but your loved, your baby's loved. Yeah, get help. There is help out there. Yes.

SPEAKER_02

Um, there's an unseen weight that women who have had abortions carry um and often never talk about that grief stays with you. Yeah, yeah. It stays with you, and it's not something that you can just forget about.

SPEAKER_00

You know, there's there's a lot of selfish terms that run around with all this about being good to yourself, uh, help yourself out. Um, I want you to flip that perspective on yourself and say, Yeah, I'm I am gonna do this for me. I'm gonna keep this baby for me because you don't realize the richness and the great things that that become of your life because of the fact that you made that decision.

SPEAKER_04

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Um, and I also want to throw out because we we had a lot of statistics going down here. I made a little fact checklist. Um so we've got um Mariah agrees with you, Mr.

SPEAKER_02

Nick.

SPEAKER_00

She does love some Mr. Nick. Um so we've got for Down syndrome cases, it's one in 700 to 775 babies. That's that's a massive amount. And uh that's a lot more than I was expecting.

SPEAKER_02

You may have been about to say this, but approximately 75%, I think, of people who get the diagnosis terminate because they are they are pressured pressured to. And um another random fact in Iceland, 99% of Down syndrome diagnoses the babies are terminated.

SPEAKER_00

Wow.

SPEAKER_02

99%, so almost all of them. Yes.

SPEAKER_00

That's crazy. All right, and we have a statistic for abortion statistic births. It is 1.12 million abortions performed annually. Wow. It says in the United States, which equates to a rate of 16.7 abortions per 1,000 women of reproductive age. Uh treacher common statistic was one in 25,000 to 50,000 live births. I I had it way off. We we were told, you know, the the whole lightning strike analogy, and I told you one in a hundred thousand. It turns out it's it's a lot greater than that. Wow. But but still not nearly as close as uh down syndrome births. I didn't realize it was that many. One in 700 to 750, that's that's a lot.

SPEAKER_03

1,120,000 a year, if you buy divide that by 365, 3,068 a day.

SPEAKER_01

Wow.

SPEAKER_03

A day.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's wild. Look, if you're out there and you are you're confused about this, because it is confusing, all these numbers and stuff like that, and all all this talk of morality and things like that, just go go to the source. Go to the source of morality, seek the scripture, seek the word. And look, if you're on the pro-choice side of this argument, and even further than that, you're completely okay with what this couple has done. This is my plea for you. My plea, I'm begging you to stop and search your heart. Lean not on your own understanding. Pretend for one second that God is real and ask him what his heart is on this issue.

SPEAKER_03

But know that you're still loved.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you are. I think that's gonna do it right there. Ladies, thank y'all for being on the show. Yeah, thanks for watching. Appreciate your insight and your knowledge as not only medical professionals, but as women and mothers. And uh, Nick Smith, I love you, brother. Love you too, bro. Thanks for um bringing that that baby boy into the world and into all of our lives. Definitely.

SPEAKER_04

He's a joy.

SPEAKER_00

I wouldn't take it back for anything. He's my boy.

SPEAKER_04

Amen to that.

SPEAKER_01

Uh, for all you watching, we love you. Christ loves you more. Seek him, seek him out. Uh, we'll see you next time.