The Win Column Podcast
The Win Column Podcast is the official Calgary Flames outlet of The Win Column (thewincolumn.ca).
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It has been an INSANE time to be a Flames fan recently. From the surprising Nemec trade, to the draft, and the Coleman trade, there is plenty going on!
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I don't feel as bad about this pre anymore. But sitting on it like a couple weeks later, I'm totally good with the move. I mean, you look at the picks that they gave up, you know, the Colorado and Vegas picks, you have to assume they're gonna be late. You know, I don't see Vegas nor Colorado falling off a cliff anytime soon, and they have an injury plague season. Can't envision, you know, those picks being very good. And they're both top 10 protected. So if they are in the top 10, then you know the flames are fine, you know, with those picks.
SPEAKER_01Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of the Win Call Calgary Flames podcast. Uh, it's been a while since we last spoke. A lot has happened. Some trades, some draft picks, some offer sheets, not flames related, but uh some fun stuff around the league. Um, obviously the big news that the biggest move by the Flames has been uh in the past couple weeks, the Simon Nemitz trade. Uh probably Conroy's biggest trade to date, definitely his biggest swing to date. Had the draft, made some questionable picks, made some good picks, and then also moved Blake Coleman actually a couple days ago. So lots to talk about. We'll kick it off with the Nemich deal. I think that was probably the most controversial move that Conroy has done, at least in the last year, I would say. I see a lot of a lot of lovers of that move, a lot of haters, a lot of people waiting to see. So I don't know about you guys, but yeah, for me, I think that's it's definitely the his biggest swing yet. And I think it's probably a case of you're gonna have to wait here, you know, two or three years until we actually find out whether this was a good move. But credit words do, it was a big risk. I just don't know yet if it's gonna be a good risk to take. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, I I mean, on initial reaction, uh you know, we're all sitting there and Ellie Friedman just goes hearing Simon Emicch to Calgary. I think we were all like, okay, that's interesting. Like, I wonder if it's gonna be like the three seconds they got from Utah. Is he gonna be a prospect, like whoever it is? You know, I think we were just kind of waiting and then trade comes out and it's two firsts, uhtien Moran, the Rangers second rounder this year for Nemich and uh Maxim Seplikov, who is kind of like a forgotten guy in this trade. Because I I every time I think of a trade, I totally thought that they got him too. I think initial reaction to all of us were like, Whoa, that's a lot of you know, that's a lot to give up for a guy who's relatively unproven. But as the days went on, and when we saw what Bowen Byrum went for to Chicago and what Chicago gave up, I was like, you know what? I don't feel as bad about this trade anymore. But sitting on it like a couple weeks later, I'm totally good with the move. I mean, you look at the picks that they gave up, you know, the Colorado and Vegas picks, you have to assume they're gonna be late. You know, I don't see Vegas nor Colorado falling off a cliff anytime soon unless something weird happens there. They have an injury plague season. Can't envision, you know, those picks being very good. And they're both top 10 protected. So if they are in the top 10, then you know, the flames are fine, you know, with those picks. Etienne Moran wasn't, I don't really think was ever gonna be anything. The Ranger second rounder, yeah. Well, you know, you would have liked to keep, but you already had four, it's fine. And then when you look at Nemich, you know, I still think there's a lot more to this guy than we've seen. And I think I'm gonna talk about it later with Conroy, but I think he's earned the benefit of the doubt at this point with what he's done over the last couple of years. And if there's something he sees in Nemich, then you know what? I'm inclined to believe him. He's a young guy, like what is he? He's 22 years old, he was a second overall pick just four years ago. There's very clearly something there with him. There's hopefully something that they New Jersey wasn't able to unlock with him. There's skill, there's pedigree, there's something there with Nemich. They just have to fully get it out of him. He wasn't necessarily put in the best situation in Jersey either. You look at the depth chart and who he had to play behind his entire time there. Dougie Hamilton's there, Brett Pesci is now there. They signed Jonathan Kovasevich, they signed Kovasevich to that ridiculous deal. You had all these guys playing above him. He wasn't really getting power play reps because you had, you know, Hamilton and Luke Hughes there. I think it's a worthwhile swing. I think it's a worthwhile bet on a guy that is very young and has the potential to be a top four, maybe even a top two. When he was drafted, I remember people being this is a great pick for New Jersey. You know, I think there's I think this is a good move. And like if he ends up panning out in your right side in the future is Perek, Nemich, and Brustevich, or maybe even Henry Mews. I mean, that could, you know, you could potentially have two top right-handed shooting defensemen in Perek and Nemich. It's not even getting into Carson Carls who they drafted, and that's just a huge addition to add to the left side, hopefully. I think it's a worthwhile swing. We'll see what the contract is. I have no idea what it's going to be. If I was Conroy, I'd probably try and bridge him. You know, I know we've seen bridges and Calgary not go the best here, but I think he's probably a guy worth bridging. There is some familiarity with Tim and Ball. I don't know how much they actually played together in New Jersey. I don't know if they did at all, but having ball as a safety net, I think is a really good thing. You know, obviously, I think Rasmus Anderson played some of his better hockey when he was paired up with Kevin Ball. And I I think he's a really good safety net to have beside a younger guy that's still trying to gain his footing. The good thing about Nemich, he's gonna get a lot of reps on a team where there's not gonna be a ton of pressure. So he can just go out there and play, play his game. You know, I and I don't think Sheldon Keefe liked him very much in Jersey from what I was raising, from what I was reading from New Jersey fans. So I I like the swing. You know, you're you're betting on a guy with real upside, and if it doesn't work out, you know what? You gave up three picks out at the end of the day, are probably just all magic beans. You know, at the end of the day, he'll probably at the very minimum be a four to six guy in your lineup and he'll be serviceable. If it works, great. If it doesn't, oh well, I think it's worth a swing because I don't think you're gonna get a Simon Nemitch with any of those picks. Maybe you do, maybe you don't. I don't know. So I like the deal. I think it it will depend on the contracts. We'll see what the contract's like. But I I like the deal. I I like the bet. I th I hope it works out.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. To your point, Alex. Those two picks, those two first, obviously, in the moment you're kind of like, okay, this seems like a lot. And I think we all of us kind of said, Okay, this seems like a lot, this seems like an overpay. But like the more you think about it, the more you sit on it, and it's like those are gonna be later picks. And the flames, like we saw over the course of the season, they accumulated so many draft picks that you're like, okay, a lot of it was for we'll see what they can do if they can swing for a younger guy. And Amic is 22, he's a right shot defenseman. Ideally, I see him in the top four, probably on the second pair, alongside Kevin Ball, as you said, Alex. So I would really like the deal. The more it's grown on me the more I've sat with it. And obviously, like you said, it's the deal's technically still not done. We still gotta see what his contract is. And I know people there was been out there that oh he might make nine or whatever from nine mil. But obviously, we're still yet to see maybe what he's asking for in Calgary. Because I mean, I've from the looks of it, it didn't seem like he can really play in New Jersey. So maybe if he wants to stay in Calgary, that can differ his offer. But I mean, it that's gonna we're gonna have to wait and see on that, but I really like the deal.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think I think it's a deal that you kind of look at, uh at least for myself. I go back and forth depending on what I look at. I I see clips of him at the the the Olympics for Slovakia. I'm like, damn, this guy's a stud. And then I look at his underlying numbers from the last two years, I'm like, damn, this guy sucks. So it's like it's definitely one of those cases where you're you're you're definitely paying for the the potential, like the pedigree of the guy second overall pick coming into the draft. Like he was viewed as like, yeah, like you you pick this guy, he's gonna be your franchise number one defenseman. Obviously, he hasn't been that so far, but like you said, he's only 22. Like, this isn't a case where Rachel Living's trading for a 28-year-old Travis Hamonick, and everyone is like, yeah, this is gonna work out very poorly. Like it at least you see the merit behind it. Where it's like he fits the age range of the team and kind of the the rebuild and what they're trying to build. And you know, he has you know, he he's still a developing player, like he's only played two full seasons in the league, he's only 22. Like, this is not a player who's I I wouldn't call him a reclamation project. You know, he's not like 25 and you know has five years under his belt, hasn't proven anything. Like he's still so young and so raw. And yeah, like you said, he's not exactly in a good situation in Jersey for just a like I think one of the messiest franchises in the league over the past couple years. He was blocked by players, obviously didn't get along with the coach. Like, I don't know how many young defensemen like him would have succeeded in that situation. So you definitely see a lot of the the potential in the deal. I think it's just for me, definitely the gamble is something that I'm like, is this worth taking at this stage of the repo? Like, could you have waited? You know, those picks weren't coming up until 27, 28. Could you maybe wait it, used them on a center instead? I don't know, but you definitely understand where Connor is coming from. He's he's a 22-year-old second overall pick defenseman with like elite elite potential and pedigree. You're not finding that type of player late in the first round or even in the middle of the first round. So, like those picks at the end of the day, none of those picks are going to turn into Nemich or a player like Nemich, and the odds of that happening are like 0.1%. So I understand the swing that Conroy wants to make. And I honestly think it's it's nice to see a general manager that's willing to take these type of swings. Like, how many years do we sit here and watch Brad Juliving sit on his hands and dip his toes into everything? But you know, always the runner up, you know, but never actually in on anything. He's just, you know, circling around and he's like, well, he was in on this, he was in on this, and he never does anything. So Conroy saw this guy, he wanted him, he had the capital to get it done, and he's like, you know what, I'm gonna go and do this. I think this guy can be a difference maker for us, and I'm gonna I'm gonna take the risk. So even if you don't even like the risk, I think you have to respect Conroy for having the balls to do something like this. Because again, we sat through nine years of Brad Twimming, virtually doing absolutely nothing for how many years, completely wasting Johnny Goodrill's prime because he just was unwilling to pull the trigger on anything. And then when he did, he would make trades like Travis Hamonick. So even if you don't like the trade, which I'm like 50-50 on it, I 100%, like you said, you trust Conra. Like he's made a lot of good decisions. So if this is Jay Feaster making this deal, I'm like, I'm a little concerned. But I I trust Conra. I trust the his his management team, the scouting staff. So I'm like, I'm I I'll just sit and I'll I'll wait and see. And like, yeah, hopefully two years from now we're looking back on this, and that Mitch is a you know top pairing defenseman and we're like, wow, we just gave up two picks in the 20s for a number one defenser, and like that's an absolute fleece. So yeah, I think it's yeah, even if you don't like it, you have to understand the merit behind it and and respect what Conroy's trying to do. And I think now it shifts to okay, now the defense is set. Like you've you've drafted two pick defensemen, the top 10, you've traded for Simon Nemich. Now what are you gonna do at forward? So I think that's gonna be the next kind of thing to watch out for here. I know Shane Wright is recently came out that he's pretty much available, he's being traded. That's probably a guy Conroy looks at. He's you know, so I think now it's interesting to see he's made his moves, he's built the defense. Now what's the what's the play up forward? And I think obviously it probably starts with the 2027 draft in their top pick. But yeah, I think you can't credit Conroy for for taking the risk. I think it's it's nice to see a general manager that's willing to go out and try to make his team better and find players that fit with the rebuild timeline, not guys who are entering their 30s like Brad Tri Living did.
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah, it's like would you rather him take spend his draft capital on a 22-year-old who's relatively unproven, or like Josh, we said a 27, 28-year-old Travis Hamonick, who is more just name value at the point of when they pet when they got him, right? And it reminds me a little bit of, you know, I think like one of the better moves Trey Living made when he was here was the Dougie Hamilton trade, like the first one, you know, when they got Dougie. And Dougie was a like was a lot more proven, and he was a he was a known commodity when the Flames got him. He's this 23-year-old, you know, top pairing defenseman that for whatever reason Boston just didn't want. I mean, there was, I think we all know why Dougie got moved so many times, but it reminds me a little bit of that where, you know, there was this young guy that there might be some holes in his game that we gotta figure out, but you know, obviously the Dougie trade was a lot different because, like I said, he was already like a 40-point elite two-way defenseman when they you know when they got him. So I like I said, I I like the move, and if it pans out great, if it doesn't, you know what? It's it's a worthwhile swing. Like you said, Josh, I Brad probably would have been here and Coleman's probably re-signed, and they probably pick, they probably would have taken Ethan Belchez at sixth overall, or you know, maybe you know, we don't know, right?
SPEAKER_01So Brad would have signed I was gonna say Brad would have signed Jacob Truba this summer to a four by eight or something like that. Yeah, that's exactly what the player Brad would have brought in.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So I think Conroy he's he's earned the trust of us, right? And no matter what you think of the move, I think you just have to be like, all right, like we're along for the ride. And you know, like you're not gonna hit on all these picks. Like, like, what are you gonna wait around for 2028 and 2029? You know, at that point, you're hoping that the flames are gonna be on the upswing and you're not gonna be needing those picks. You know, if they if they get a top pick next year and they find their center and what's play out a scenario in which they get Shane Wright this summer and and he ends up developing into a top six guy, you're not even worried about those picks because then you're hoping you've got you draft Alexi Joseph next year, you draft uh Provalov, whatever his name is, you got those two guys down the middle, and you're laughing at that point, right? So I'm happy with it. You know, we'll we'll see how he plays. I'm excited to watch him. Like that top four should be between Zane and uh Nemish next year. Like it's giving me something to look forward to, you know. But speaking of draft picks, let's let's talk about Carson Carls. Flames take him at six overall. I feel like the fan base was generally happy about the pick. There were some people that really wanted the forward, but I'll get your guys' take on it because I love the pick. So um I'll let you guys kind of take it away here. But I really like the pick.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, he's probably best player available there. I mean, obviously, some might say Chase Reed was best player available there, but then also you don't want to take that right shot defense in when you have Nemitch, you have Perak, and then you have those other guys that grew Stevich in the pipeline. So in my my eyes for the Flames, he's best fit, probably available or best player available for them. And then if you just look at him play, like the way he skates with Prince George this past year, he was like just elite on the ice. And his all-around game, like I think a lot has been saying about him being on that top pair with Perek in the future, and I think they just complement each other's games really well. They already had that connection from the world juniors, and then also with Carl's, I think if he does play alongside Perk, I think he could help maybe lessen the burden of Parek having to like his responsibility on the defensive end, because a lot of flaws I think are in his defensive game, and so Carl can maybe help mitigate that, and they complement each other's games very nicely. And I think that's like your top pair for the future, and it's like that's could be an elite top pair. Like that I would almost think of it as Tays McCarr if it all works out.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, like you said, I think with Carl's the biggest thing is he he's pretty much, I would say, like an A plus fit for the Flames. Like he I don't I think of any team in the top six, seven, eight, like he he's probably the best landing spot, or the Flames are the best landing spot for for Carls because I just think I think his offensive game might be a tad overrated. I feel like at the next level he doesn't have that dynamic offense that you would hope for from a top six pick. But the thing is the Flames don't need him to have a dynamic offense because they have Perek, Nemic, Berstevich, Muse. Like they need him to be that sturdy, two-way, transitional, you know, more kind of stay-at-home type of defenseman. And that's that's what he's best at. That's what he excels at. Like he is he's a dog out there. He's just, you know, he's what 6'2, he's probably got size decay, like he's he's not afraid to muck it up. Like, I think if you were to go in a lab and build a perfect partner for Zayn Perek, like a player like Carson Carls would probably be pretty close to it. So I think I you know, personally, I was voting, I I would have liked them to take Vigo Bruk. I think he was the best player available. But if they had you know doubts about his size, whatever, Carl would have been my number two option at that spot. So I have no complaints about the pick. And like I said, I think if it would have gone to a different team, I think there's maybe some question marks about can this guy be a true, you know, offensive number one guy. But for the Flames, the the fit is just so perfect in in every way that I think you don't really care as much if his game offensive game is doesn't develop as much as some people think it will outside of junior, just because yeah, you have Zayn Breck, you have uh Nemich now, you have Bruce Tevich. Like you just need Carl to be that guy who can be that yeah, that Devontae's beside Kale McCarr. Like that's a perfect example of I think in a perfect world, though that's what these two guys are in the next few years. So yeah, I love the pick. I think after Bjork, he was my guy at six. I think he would probably would have been after McKenna Stenberg, I would have gone probably Bjork, and then Carol Carl would have been my fourth option. So I think to get him at six, obviously we're disappointed to slip that far, but you got a picture perfect fit for the organization. And I know, yeah, like you said, people complain about oh, another defenseman, but the reality was the left side of that fence was pretty pretty bleak. There's nothing there. There's nothing like they have nothing to do. Let's be honest, like Etienne Moran was considered last year the top left shot defenseman prospect in the system. And he just spent the year in the ECHL. Yeah, he spent the year in the ECHL and was traded as essentially a throw-in. So like that kind of shows you, you know, because Netov is in there, but he's never gonna be more than like a third-band guy. So to add Carl, it kind of just completely changes the outlook for that left side over the next decade and gives you, you know, ball, Carl, Carls, Kreck, Nemich, like your your defense is should be set, assuming those guys hit close to the ceiling. So yeah, I I think I I love the pick. I and I think you can you can't go wrong taking a player like that given the organizational needs. Uh going past Carl's, if looking at the rest of the draft class, I think there were some good picks, some questionable ones, Joe Ginla, but I think like the pick at 30 Hexall, given where the pick was, and like yeah, you can't help hope for much better out of 30th overall. That's a guy who I think has very real, like middle six kind of you know, similar to the pick of Potter the year before, where like you're you're you're you're getting really good value for for where you're picking in the draft. It also helps, you know, he's an American guy, but he has his dad's from Saskatchewan, and I think he said he has family in Alberta, so like that's another bonus because obviously anytime you're taking Americans now in the first round, you're a little concerned, but I feel like with him it's not a concern because he has family in Canada. And yeah, I think 30th overall, that's a that's a really good bet.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Past that, I I think the only two picks I didn't like were Harrington and and Aginla, which was just a ridiculous pick pretty much for the memes and because he's Aginla's son, so whatever. But that that was pretty crazy that they took him that high. But otherwise, I thought they had a really good draft.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I was very happy with the Carl's pick. I mean, we sp I we've spent the last couple of years talking about we need to find McKenzie Uyghur a partner. You know, we need to find McKenzie Uyghur a guy because he was playing with like Hanley and Miramanov, and you know, and then he gets traded and it's like, okay, because that was the guy I envisioned Preck playing with, like long term, right? Because Weiger was happy playing the left side, and it just seemed like those two were super close and like they could complement each other. Then Weigger gets traded, and now it's like, okay, now we need to find a partner for Zayn. And they I they found it. I think Deshaun, like you said it, they they I think they found that guy. And I remember when the season ended and the Flames were they finished fourth last before the lottery had even happened. I remember sitting there going, okay, you're not getting McKenna or Stenberg. This isn't the year you're getting your forward. This isn't the year you're getting a franchise change your forward. I love Vigil Bjork. I think he's gonna be a fantastic player. I don't know if he would have pushed the needle that much for Calgary. You know, like they already have a lot of guys that profile like a Viggle Bjork. I think Koreshny is like a perfect example, you know. I think Bjork may have a little bit of a higher of a ceiling than Reshne, if we're being completely honest. But does Vigor Bjork project to be a top line franchise defining player? Probably not, especially in this draft where it was so weak on the centers and just forwards in general. Maybe any other draft he doesn't go as high as he did. When we were talking about Carl's, he projects as a top pairing left-handed shooting defenseman, which they don't have in their system. And I remember at the time, even before they dropped a six, I'm like, that's the guy. You know, like that, that's the guy I think they take. I remember seeing a clip in April before the lottery of they're playing Victoria in the playoffs and defensive zone draw. Puck goes back to the point, Carl just takes a shot, blocks it right in the knee, keeps going, battles off a guy, settles the puck down behind the net, sends a sends a you know, a stretch pass halfway down the ice to, you know, springs his guy to breakaway. He misses, but Carl follows up the play and just demolishes some poor kid. Just sends him to the shadow realm. And then he gets back, makes another defensive play, and that was it. And it was late in the game. I think it was a tie game. The Flames don't have that player. Zane's gonna do some special things offensively with the puck. He's not gonna do a Carl's Ken where he's gonna lay his body on the line, he's gonna be dummying kids. Like, this is a player that the Flames absolutely needed in their system. He br he was born to be a Calgary Flame. He's on like if Daryl Sutter was the coach, he would have taken him first overall, you know, if they had the chance to. But he, I think, is gonna be so damn good. I mean, I've been watching more and more of him, and you know, I the pick was I feel like he was best player available at that point. Chase Reed never really moved me, and you know, they have a ton of right-handed shooting defensemen already. And again, Josh, like you said about the American factor, you're not taking an American that high, unless it's gonna be first overall. But he fits the flames everything they need stylistically from a team fit. And again, I do think he ended up being, you know, best player available. I think it's a great pick. I think he's gonna be one and done at no deck. I think he's gonna go to North Dakota, play out the year, which is gonna be great for his development. We'll see how he can really handle things defensively. Um, and Josh, like you said, I do think he's gonna be more of a two-way guy. I think Josh, I think Jake Sanderson is a perfect comp for Carl in terms of their styles. And Jake Sanderson's turned into a pretty damn good player for Ottawa. He's gonna go to Nodak, he gets to play with Reshne. I think the cool thing from a Flames perspective is you're gonna have two guys playing for Canada at the World Juniors this year that are gonna be like integral parts of the team. Like they're gonna be key cogs in that, on that team this year in Reshne and uh in Carl's, right? So, but I think he's gonna be one and done, and he's gonna probably play out, you know, he'll probably get in some games at the NHL level at the end of the season. And then when that new arena opens next year, he's gonna be right there in that lineup, I think. So love the pick. You know, he seems like a guy that is gonna want to be here, and I'm I couldn't have been happier. Year. And I like I said, I think Josh, like you said with the rest of the draft, I think Hexall was a good pick for where he was. And I like I said earlier with Conroy, I think he's earned the benefit of the doubt. Is this the weakest of the last? Like, I don't really count 2023 as a Conroy draft because I don't really think he held too many cards in that draft. But if we're talking 24, 25, and 26, probably the weakest crop in general. Like I think Carl is probably the best player that they've gotten, but probably the weakest crop. But you know what? I think he's earned the benefit of the doubt. I'm watching clips from Dev Camp and it's like, damn, like they've got some skilled kids that I don't know if they're all gonna make it. I don't know if Wittenbach's gonna make it. He looked great. I don't even know if like Massao Phillips is gonna make it, but like he looked like I was like, okay, this guy's a lot better than I originally thought he was, like in terms of what I've seen from him. So I think, like I said, I think Conroy's earned the benefit of the doubt. And I thought he had a good draft. Not great, it was good. It's definitely better than any of the tree living or the feast years, right? Like, I don't know, there's a certain someone that said this was the worst draft in Flames history, and I think it was far from it because there was, you know, the 2014 draft was awful. You know, 2021 or no, 2022 was yeah, I know they had limited picks, but really bad draft. Like, there's been some really, really bad drafts. And you know, they've Conroy's been taking swings on guys, and you know, I I've loved what they've done. So next year, you know, looking at their roster, they're they're gonna be bad again next year. You have to get the forward, you have to. I I think that's a non-negotiable.
SPEAKER_00So I did draft grades for each pick the Flames made. And so, like you get both said, I think the draft that they had was like really, really solid. And even the picks that you know some people might be a little concerned as to maybe why they made that, I don't think it's as bad as you think it is right now. Harrington, obviously, it's people are divided, it's 50-50. But I mean, he's kind maybe he was picked a little early, but he can be a really solid net front guy, and he's a pest on the ice. And I think obviously we see with the flames, they have a lot of skilled players, right? But you don't have like a guy who's gonna annoy the crap out of their other team. You don't have someone who's gonna get under their skin, who's gonna rattle them. And I think Harrington does that. He might have been picked a little early, but it's not necessarily a bad pick. And then same with Aginla, a lot of his a lot of the reason why he fell is because of he played injured. And even before that, he was developing pretty nicely. And I do think that if an injury didn't hamper him in his draft year, he could have been maybe a fourth round, third round guy. So do I think do I think they could have gone him later? Probably, but necessarily, I don't think it's a bad pick. I just think they could have maybe gone someone else there and maybe stolen again la later in the draft. And then I think one of my favorite picks that they made, I think, is Igor Barabanov. He was an overager in the OHL, but he was extremely solid. 91 points in 68 games for Saginaw. And obviously, people maybe get turned away by the fact that he's an overager, but like those numbers in the OHL is still extremely solid, and he's a skilled guy. Who knows if he ever makes the NHL, right? He was picked 100th overall, but I think it's a very good gamble that they took on him there with this pure skill and screen.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you guys, I think you guys know a little bit more about the uh the prospects than I do. So yeah, um, I don't really know much else outside of like first round guys. So but yeah, no, like I thought, like I said, I thought they had an okay draft. I think it's better than people are giving them credit for. So we'll talk about Coleman now because that was uh that one kind of came out of left field. I didn't expect them to move him as early in the summer as they did. It was like a day after the Anderson and Marksham retention slots come off the books. It's okay, let's get Coleman right back on there. So the trade goes as follow. Flames sent Blake Coleman and Oli Matta to the Minnesota Wild in exchange for Jake Middleton. 2029 second round pick. Uh, was it a 2028 third and a 2027 fourth? Uh, let me just 2027 third and a 2028 fourth. So, right off the bat, I just want to say this is a good trade. I don't want to hear anybody saying, oh my god, the Flames are fleece. They didn't. Coleman has one year left on his contract. He's 35, he's gonna be 35, and he's a UFA. I did say one year left on his deal, UFA at the end of the year. And he's a winger. I don't know what people were expecting they'd get for him. I the talk about getting a first-round pick would have been crazy. Yeah, I mean, I would have liked the second to be sooner than 2029, but look, it's more ammunition you can use in other trades if you know if there's somebody who comes along and and whatnot. But I think the Coleman, you know, the deal itself is good. The Flames held uh retain 50%, which is fine. They have so much cap space. But you look at Coleman's time in Calgary over five years, like Coleman, very good player. Like I thought he lived up to his billing, you know, that contract he signed. But like you look at his last like the five years in Calgary, he only eclipsed the 40-point mark once. He was a 30-point guy in his time here: 33, 38, 54, 39, 35. He's a pretty consistent 30 to 40-ish point guy outside of that 154-point year where he scored 30. You weren't getting a first-rounder for him, you weren't getting a tall prospect for him. The fact that they just move off of Coleman, they get some picks in return, it makes your team worse, which is good. The flames are aiming to be bad. Jake Middleton will help them be bad. Defensemen like Jake Middleton, for whatever reason, teams love, I guarantee at some point down the line, they're gonna be able to flip him. Maybe you would have liked an extra pick in there because you also sent them Olimata, and you obviously had a I thought he played extremely well down the stretch with the Flames, but again, it's Oli Mata and he's been like a third-pairing defenseman most of his career. I don't think you were adding that much on top of him. But I think Conroy did well. He moved him off sooner rather than later. Because maybe by deadline time, maybe he's having a bad year, or maybe even worse, maybe he gets hurt. You don't move him at all. You take the picks, you're fine with it. The teams are worse for next year. There's only one player remaining from that ever so fun 21-21, 21-22 team in Michael Backlund, who is apparently never gonna leave. So that's kind of sad when you think about it. But I thought the deal was fine. It's not oh it's not great, but it's not bad. It's a good trade. The Flames did find.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. As you said, they they kind of squeezed all the value they could out of Goleman there. I mean, like you said, he's a winger with only one year left. And if you look at you know, other trades involving wingers, Connor Garland, he was had six years left when uh a contract extension he was traded, kicking in when he was traded. He got what was it, a six, a second and a third, right? And then the only winger I can think of recently that I believe got a first was Artemis Panarin. And Blake Coleman is a yeah, and well while Blake Coleman is a phenomenal player, he is not Artemis Panarin. Yeah, he uh he's not Artemis Panarin, and so I think they squeezed all they could, all the value they could out of Blake Coleman. And I don't really think they could have done much else. And as you said, you got rid of him as soon as they could. You know, who knows if he has a bad year or if he gets hurt, then you lose all value there, and then you let him walk for nothing. And so I think they did what they could, and then the Mara Middleton, that's kind of inconsequential flipping of defensemen. I don't really that's really yeah, like I said, that's pretty inconsequential. It's more so getting those three picks for Coleman, which I think, as you said, could be used for ammunition, or who knows if they make those picks later down in the line.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like you said, I was shocked that there were so many people who thought it was a bad deal for the Flames. Like like Flames fans, other people, like I saw Jay Fresh say, like, oh well, this is a terrible return for Blake Coleman. And like, do you like you said, like, do people realize who Blake Coleman is? Like, yeah, he's a great player. He's he's gonna be 35 in November, he's a pending UFA, he's a winger. What f find me a player with that mold that's gone for more than a second round pick in the past 10-15 years. I think actually, I think I I saw someone mention it was like the last kind of similar case of that age was Marion Hosa in like 2008. So, like, like it yeah, I don't understand the the thought process. Like, I get again, I get I get Coleman's a great player, and he was kind of a fan favorite in Calgary. Like he's just a guy who really bought in and was a leader. So I get it's tough to see him go, but yeah, I think that the Flames did great on this trade. I if you consider Mada and Middleton basically a one-for-one swap, you got three draft picks, a second, a third, and a fourth for for 30 soon-to be 35-year-old UF pending UFA, who it didn't make sense to bring him back, even if he wanted to. Like, it just doesn't make sense for this team. And yeah, like you said, the most important thing is yeah, he mentioned that Coleman was like, I'm I'm down to come back, but I need a a multi-year deal. And Conroy pretty much said, like, no, we're not we're not doing that. You're not doesn't fit the age range, like we're gonna trade you. So again, they also have a million forwards. Yeah, like it just didn't make any sense for him to come back past this season. And yeah, like you said, Coleman leaving makes this team much, much worse next year, which is again, in my mind, like the most important goal for this team is being as bad as possible in 26-27. And you look at Coleman's on ice impacts, like he was the guy in Calgary, like he was Huska's boy, and he would play penalty kill, he played second power play, he played every single tough even strength minute minute alongside Michael Backlund. Like, and his numbers were like sparkling. Like he's he's a great player. So taking him out of the Flames lineup and plugging in, you know, people say I see people saying, you know, Joel Fairby kind of slides into that spot, like that is a gigantic downgrade. No offense to Joel Fairby, but I think that the biggest thing from this deal for me is just this makes the flames so much worse. And when you're out there trying to defend a lead or you're trying to shut down the other team's top line and Coleman's not an option anymore, that's gonna be really bad for the Flames, which is good for us because we want them to be bad. So I think getting draft picks for Coleman before he potentially, like you said, you know, gets injured or something and you get nothing, and also removing them from day one of the season to make this team worse is like a win-win. I think this the fact that Conroy pulled the trigger so fast, like you said, like literally the day after those retention slots open. He's like, all right, see ya. Again, is like, damn, it's nice to have a GM who's actually like proactive. I know we were kind of critical of yeah, we were kind of critical of Conrad at his start of his tenure of like, oh, he's he's more, you know, reactive. He's a little too nice to the players, he lets them control things. But I feel like in the past I feel like in the past 12 months, now I'm starting to think, is that just ownership kind of breathing down his neck? And and maybe in the last year he's kind of pulled some of that control, convinced them, like, just let me do my thing. And that's why we're seeing these more cutthroat moves like trading Coleman like this, trading Uyghur, like even look at all the head of everything, but even look at all the RFAs they didn't qualify.
SPEAKER_02Like, I get like there were so many RFAs that they didn't need to bring back, but like look at someone like Grushnikov, he traded for him two years ago. He was the main return in the Crest Taniff trade, and he wasn't living up to whatever. And Conroy went, okay, I'm cutting ties. Like, there were a lot of guys from that tree-living era where yeah, Conway was around, like Parker Bell, Lucas Siona, all these guys that they drafted and try to develop, and he's like, Yeah, I just don't need you guys anymore. And we like Josh, I think we talked about it before the end of the season of how the Wranglers needed like a complete revamp. And it looks like Conroy is getting ahead of that. Like, you look at all the guys that they they didn't qualify and let go, and their AHL team is gonna be completely different next year. Like they brought back Ben Jones, uh, you're gonna have Othman, Basha's gonna be up there, Stromgren's gonna be there, uh, you know, Jonathan Castania is gonna be there, like Sunia's gonna get another full year, Tyson Gross is gonna have a full year, and then they brought in some guys like Englin, Benning, Livingstone, like they brought in some guys that are, and then you're gonna add Chase Weeb to that as well. Chase Weeb, right? That's his name. Chase? Abram, Abram Weeb. I was like, not Chase. They are gonna have a different AHL look, and he's been more cutthroat than probably we expected, which is great. You know, they're letting him finally do his thing, and like you said, with Coleman, just him not being there is gonna make them worse. And you like I still think the roster has a lot of work to do because I'm looking at their I'm looking at their depth chart right now, and it's like they still have so many guys on this team. Like, I don't know, like like their fourth line projected right now in Puck Pedia is Hansik, Plasbaso, and Klapka. Sempelkov is the 13th. Like, there's still a lot of work to be done because I think you need to get if assuming Zeri's still here, like Zeri needs more minutes. I would love for Gridden to get a ton of minutes, but like their top line center as according to Puckpedia is Michael Backlund. And you know what? They gotta make a decision on Frost, like sooner rather than later. Are you keeping him or are you moving them? I would probably move considering contracts. Well, some somebody considering somebody's considering somebody's contracts being given out, I'd move them.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, frost is a guy I'm wondering about in like a potential Shane Wright deal. Like that seems like a guy. We know Seattle is obsessed with middle six forwards. They collect them all like infinity stones. And you know, move if they do move right out, they're gonna need another center. Frost is obviously right now a better NHL center. Like, could you do something like Frost plus a pick or Frost plus picks for right? And then you're moving out frost, you're bringing in a younger player with more potential. Seattle gets the center that they want right now, you know, if right's not staying. So I do wonder about that as a potential, just because you know Eric Francis had mentioned that the Flames were pushing very, very hard for Mason McTavish, which I don't know if I agree with. I don't I he's kind of scares me, and I think I'm glad that they were like, yeah, that's way too much to pay, and that they let St. Louis pay with two two first round picks. But just the fact that they were pushing for that makes me kind of think like I feel like Connery, he made his big splash on defense. I feel like he wants to pick up a young center before the offseason's done. He knows he needs it, right? Yeah, and Shane Wright just seems like the most obvious fit at this point. Like it's just wing on him. Yeah, like so. I do wonder. Yeah, depending on the price, like same thing with Nebetch. Like, yeah, this guy was picked very high. He hasn't lived up to his potential. He's still super, super young. He was, you know, right hasn't exactly had the best. Yeah, like he just two picks later. Oh, is he? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He hasn't had a good situation in Seattle. Like, Seattle is just a no dumpster fire of just middle six players.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, see Seattle, a lot of prospects that go to pretty much every prospect that goes to Seattle, like, you know, even Beneers, they just kind of ruined him a little bit. Yeah, they have they handled their development horribly. Like, when you look at a guy like Berkeley Catton, same year as Breck, I'm worried about him. Like, he I don't I thought he was gonna be amazing, but like I just hope Seattle doesn't ruin his development as well, because they have a track record of doing that. They don't develop their gas properly.
SPEAKER_02I'm even looking at right, like two seasons ago, so the 20 24-25, he had 40 he had 44 points in 79 games. That was like his first that was his first real run in in the NHL. Like he the that that first year after the like so his draft plus one, he played eight games, his draft plus two, he played eight games, and then his draft plus three, he comes in, he is he plays all he plays 79 games, 44 points, 19 goals. This year 74 games, 27 points. So it didn't help that they signed Chandler Stevenson. He's taken away all of his minutes. But yeah, I think that's like Nemich, I think that's a guy taking a worthwhile swing on. I don't believe you have to sign him to a contract. No, you don't. I think that's a guy definitely worth, you know. I would Seattle train him in division. I don't, I don't necessarily know. But he's got one year left and then he's RFA in 2027, so next summer. I don't know. I it it's a it's a swing. Like again, if you're gonna take a swing on a guy, might as well take on a guy who got exceptional status but fourth overall. Guy who was pretty much penned all year to be the first overall pick.
SPEAKER_00Until like the week of the draft.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's a no the night of, I think people thought he was gonna go first.
SPEAKER_01And yeah, you know, Montreal was flaff, right? Shane Wright kind of had that buzz, like not the McDavid level, but like remember when he's playing the Don Mills Flyers, like he was like, Oh shit, this is like this is the next big thing. Like, and then he went up into the O and he has that like 30 or whatever goal season. Like he beat McDavid's goal total as a 15-year-old.
SPEAKER_02I remember his rookie year, this is like 2019, this is right before COVID. Uh, they were playing Mississauga, and me and a couple friends went to go watch him, and it was like Kingston, they were bad. Like they were probably the worst team in the league, and he's 15, and he's the best player on the ice by a mile. And I'm like, this kid's gonna be unbelievable. And then COVID happens, he doesn't play hockey for a year. That's it. Him and Bedard went to yeah, him and Bedard went to that U18 tournament. Both of them were unbelievable. Right, and then I want to say right had like a 95-point year, his draft year. And you know, there's there's a lot of skill there, you know, and there's pedigree, right? I don't know how much you have to pay for a player like that. I wonder if Seattle's probably looking at that going, well, you paid what you did for Nemich. So, but I wonder, yeah, Josh, I do wonder about a potential like do you dangle Frost? What about Zeri? Like, is it Zeri plus? Is it Zeri and Frost? I don't know. I would I think I would move both Zeri and Frost to get a good look at Shane, right? You know, it's it's an interesting player.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. The thing with Frost though, he's 27, so uh Yeah, he's not young.
SPEAKER_02Like his yeah, his butt.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, his value's kind of like dwindling soon. And so it's well, I mean, you're taking a if you're a team taking on Frost, right? You're looking at a guy who's not really gonna grow from the player he is right now.
unknownRight?
SPEAKER_02So you guys coming off he's coming off of like a pretty decent year, like for his standards. Yeah, for he had 22 goals, 43 points. I think teams would be I don't know. Maybe he's got six by six.
SPEAKER_00That is true. But then he's all he's also reaching 30 years old, right? So maybe you wanna you don't want to wait until he's old, even older than he is right now. Like obviously 27's still young, but like you don't want to keep waiting until he's 30, 31, and then all of a sudden you get you're gonna get less than what you could have gotten now. And obviously, like we said, Shane Right, I think Seattle screwed up his development. I think he could be a really good even midseason when there was talk about oh do the flames maybe look at a guy like Shane Wright. I think he's a very good target for them. And I think it's it's worthwhile swing, right? You took a swing on damage, take a swing on right, and I mean it could I do think it could really pay off for them. And then even for trading in division, I mean, I think Seattle's with how what with how it's gone down, and basically I believe it was Wright's agent that's basically also said that they agreed, both parties agreed to like move on. I think Seattle is willing to send him anywhere that they get the best return. And then no, I don't think anyone's really gonna be going close to that Nemich offer that Calgary got traded for ne uh Nemish. And so I don't think it's gonna be even it probably won't be as close to that. If you maybe dangle a second and maybe Zary or Frost, that might get it done. Who knows? Maybe that's too much. But I mean, I do think Ray is worthwhile.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, for sure. Yeah, if it costs you a couple seconds, I think that's something I would do all day. I he he has the pedigree, and like like you said, if you know, if if you make that deal next year you land a top three pick, and now your center gym is you know, Alexis Joseph, you got Shane Wright, Cole Rejny, like Theostilus, isn't it? Like now you're like, oh man, we actually have yeah, you Hexal, yeah. Like it was like, wow, our center jept will come. We're screwed to we maybe actually stacked it, so we might have to move a guy out. Like, so I think taking those type of gambles on a guy like Wright, just like with Nemich, maybe it's paying for pedigree, but I think at that age it's it's worth the gamble. Like he he had 47 points in 59 AHL games when he was like 19, which is like very, very rare for that player. Like, and yeah, he he had a good rookie year.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's just this past season that he wasn't great, but like if you watched even one game of the Seattle rocking, you would realize why it's not really a good place for a young twelve.
SPEAKER_0212 to 13 minutes a night. It's like yeah, yeah. Every coach they've had the same. Yeah, they're every coach they've had, they've just buried him. And yeah, I don't like again, I don't watch I don't watch a ton of Seattle games to be completely honest. But when you have when you're running Beneers as your 1C, which I mean you probably should be, but then you're trotting out Chandler Stevenson as much as they do. Doesn't you know it's he's kind of put in the same position as Nemich was just on forward, where Nemich is playing behind all these guys, and now Wright's playing behind all these guys. Not getting the opportunities where he Wright would come to Calgary and immediately be like their first line center. Like I would play him right beside Gridden and Hubertot and be like, have a time, pal. Or maybe not Hubertot, but like maybe maybe you know, him, Coronado, and Gridden, go, go have fun. Like, just you're gonna get all offensive zone starts and you're just gonna play, you know. Given I don't know if Huska would do that. Huska's the wild card in all this, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But I think towards the end of the year, I think Huska was starting to get it. Where it's like, you know, Zayn and Gridden were playing a lot more. But I don't know. I I think if there's a deal to be made, I think Cowardy should be all over it. I think Connie should be all over it. Why not?
SPEAKER_00Like we said earlier, like the Flames have how many draft picks? Like they have so many, like how many uh how many of those how what's the chance that one of those players turns into a guy that has the potential and skill of it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and the the reward if it hits, oh my god, you're talking about hopefully a guy that's you know a top six center, maybe turns into that franchise center he was supposed to be. Sometimes it takes a guy like that. Yeah, like I don't know. I'm not gonna try and compare him to I'm not gonna compare him to Tage Thompson, but like Thompson gets brought into a situation gets brought into a situation in Buffalo. It's a little bit of a different situation because they didn't trade him like when he broke out, but he finally got like that opportunity to play, and then all of a sudden, oh my god, he's unbelievable. Not saying he's gonna be Tage by any means, but you know, I think he'd come to Calgary and uh automatically be given you know a top six center role, top power play unit roles. Like, you know, there's a couple of pretty talented guys on the flames. Like Graydon's pretty talented, Coronado can shoot, they're gonna have some talent on the back end, you know. They're it wouldn't be the worst situation for him to be put into. So even like or just you know what, offer sheepard. Let's do it, let's get fun.
SPEAKER_00And then Leo Carlson won, that would do it. Yeah, he's like an RF, what you said right's an RFA after this season, right? Yeah, he's an RFA at the end of the year. And so it's like the Flames have so much cap space that like you don't even have to worry about that. Like you don't have to worry about oh, he only has one year left on his contract. Like, you have so much cap space that you can take the gamble.
SPEAKER_02And the cap's rising too, right? Like, we're yeah, like where's it going next year? 100, I think it goes to 113 next year or something, they're not gonna have issues. And they got money coming off the books too. Like, frost comes off the books, Strom's five million comes off the books, Seppikov's 2.2, you know, they got money coming off, and then like like Josh, like you've said it a million times. They're in such a good area. They're in as long as they don't sign any dumb deals, they're in a really good spot cap-wise. Yeah, you've said it a million times.
SPEAKER_00Like at the time, at the time we're recording this, what is it? It's July 4th, Saturday. I think just yesterday I tweeted out like the top five AEVs on the flame, so then it's it's Hubertot at 10.5, it's Wolf at 7.5, then it's Coronado 6.5, then Sharon Govich 5.75, and Ball at 5.35. Like your fifth your fifth and fourth, your fourth and fifth highest paid players are making five high years.
SPEAKER_02But you give you an arm going forward for those type of guys anyway.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and it's like if those are your highest paid contracts, like obviously the Hubert O one, but I mean, like, you kind of need that to get to the cat floor now with how things are going.
SPEAKER_02The Hubert O contract went from being the worst in the league, which still is by the way, but it's actually being a huge help to the Flames because he's helping them get to the floor.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like they they they basically it went from being like, okay, how do we try to maybe get out of this contract to we cannot move this contract, we need to hit the cat floor. And it's so who knows if he goes on LTIR. Obviously, his injury is not one that many players are able to success successfully come back from. But then next to you, he's also gonna have to get a second hip surgery.
SPEAKER_02I hope everyone knows that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, which and then your second highest paid player is Dustin the Wolf. You franchise goalie at 7.5 mil, and it's like you're you're rolling, and then it's like I think we also have to account for the fact Namich is probably gonna maybe surpass Wolf and A V at when his contract gets signed. And it's like, yeah, we might grimace at it right now, but I mean, who knows that could turn out, but like we gotta remember the cap's rising. Every contract is gonna seem absurd because we've just been so used to a flat cap for so long now that like we said, like contracts are gonna seem absurd. Like, like you said, Charlie Quo about six by six, and I mean Darren Rash is making eight years, eight mil, and so it's yeah, the contracts are just gonna be so inflated that it's gonna take some time getting used to. But Namich making more than Wolf probably won't even be that bad. Hopefully it's not the case.
SPEAKER_01All right, thanks everybody for listening to another episode of the Wind Column Cogger Flames podcast. As always, make sure to follow along and like, subscribe on your podcast platform of choice, and we'll catch you later.