Divorce

In this heartfelt episode of The Invisible Loss Podcast, we explore divorce through the lens of non-death loss—the kind of grief that isn’t always recognized, but deeply felt. Joined by Cortney and Kent, we engage in an open, honest, and vulnerable conversation about what it means to lose a marriage while both people are still living.

Together, we unpack the layered losses that come with divorce: the loss of identity, shared dreams, family structure, and the future once imagined. We also talk about the emotional complexity of grieving someone who is still present, and how that ambiguity can make healing even more challenging.

By sharing our stories and reflections, this episode creates space to acknowledge and validate the often invisible grief of divorce. If you’ve experienced this kind of loss—or are supporting someone who has—this conversation offers understanding, connection, and a reminder that your grief is real, even if others don’t always see it.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:11

Welcome to the Invisible Loss Podcast, where your hosts Jen and Barbara. If you've ever found yourself grieving something that doesn't seem to count in the eyes of the world, if you've ever wondered why a loss that isn't about death can still hurt so deeply, you're in the right place. We're really glad you're here.

SPEAKER_02 0:30

This podcast is for the grief that doesn't always come with funerals, casseroles, or clear permission to mourn. The kind of grief that's quiet, confusing, and even often carried alone.

SPEAKER_03 0:44

Invisible loss exists because not all grief looks the same, and not all losses are recognized, named, or supported. Yet they still shape us.

SPEAKER_02 0:56

Welcome back to the Invisible Loss Podcast. Our discussion is educational and reflective. It is not a substitute for therapy. Please honor your own well-being while listening.

SPEAKER_03 1:05

Today we're talking about one of the most common but often misunderstood forms of invisible loss. Divorce. Divorce is usually talked about as a legal process or relationship conflict. But from a thanatology perspective, divorce can also be understood as a grief experience. When a marriage ends, people may lose not just a partner, but a shared future, family traditions, social roles, and sometimes even their sense of identity.

SPEAKER_02 1:33

And from a therapeutic perspective, divorce can involve many of the same emotional responses that we see in other forms of grief, like sadness, anger, identity loss, and loneliness. But because the other person is still alive, people are often expected to move forward quickly.

SPEAKER_03 1:50

So today we're exploring divorce as a non-death loss and talking about the grief that it can accompany the end of a marriage.

SPEAKER_02 1:58

To help us explore this topic today, we've invited two guests who have lived through divorce and are willing to share some of their experiences with us.

SPEAKER_03 2:06

We're really grateful that you're both here and willing to talk about something that can be very personal. So we're going to start with you, Courtney. Tell us a little bit briefly about your background and how long you were married.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

Um, we were together for 25 years and married 20 years exactly to the day. Wow. Where did you two meet? Uh, working at Walmart, actually.

SPEAKER_03 2:27

So you didn't go to school together or anything like that? Nope. Kent, you're our other guest.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

Uh thank you.

unknown 2:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:34

Give a little brief background on yourself and how long you had been married prior to divorce.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

Uh was married for 17 years together for 19 or 20. We met in high school.

SPEAKER_03 2:46

Okay. Um, I guess for both of you, did you have children with your your ex-spouse? I've got one.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

We had one before we were married and one born after we were married.

SPEAKER_02 2:56

All right. Can you describe your divorce in one word?

SPEAKER_00 3:00

Relief.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

I agree. Relief was?

SPEAKER_03 3:02

Yes. So for some it is relief. However, for others, divorce can feel sudden and other times it unfolds gradually. So would either of you be willing to share what the moment looked like when you realized the marriage was truly ending? So this is a hard question, right? Because when I'm asking you to talk about that moment, it's that idea of I don't want to be an asshole and say things about my ex-spouse that, you know, we're airing this. So they come back to them. But at the same time, you have to be honest. Correct.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

So we had separated before.

SPEAKER_03 3:38

How far into the marriage were you when you separated the first time?

SPEAKER_01 3:41

Um, 15, 16 years, something like that. And he had actually kicked me out of the house at that time, moved in with my parents with my son, and then we had decided to work on it, just felt like there was unfinished business. And then my dad died 2019. So it was about 2017 when we separated. Okay. And then all of a sudden, just there was no communication, super lack of communication. And we didn't do anything together at all. I believe it was 2022-ish, beginning in 2023, that we just both were like, it's done. It's just done.

SPEAKER_03 4:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:24

Because it was January 22nd, 24th, January 24th, that we sat down with our son and said, Hey, this ain't gonna work. We're filing for divorce.

SPEAKER_03 4:33

What did your son say?

SPEAKER_01 4:34

He knew. I already told him, I said, Hey, it's it's coming. I don't know when it's coming, but it's coming. And he's like, you know what? If that's what makes you both happy, he had just turned 18 or was going to be turning 18. He's like, it is what it is at this point. He's like, but I'm staying here with you because this is my home. So I it was more a relief though. I was just done fighting it. Kent, what about you?

SPEAKER_00 5:01

I could say which time because I think the first time we separated was maybe for three or four days, but it was five years into the marriage. And things were would patch up and get good for a while, and then it'd fall apart again. I think we separated in there probably three or four times before we finally decided to call it done.

SPEAKER_03 5:28

What would cause those separations? Like what what was it that would fall apart?

SPEAKER_00 5:34

Any of a number of things. Uh lack of communication, infidelity, you name it. Any any of the top five reasons people get divorced is we were right in there.

SPEAKER_03 5:46

Part of me, you know, sitting here and listening and having also been divorced myself, you know, mine was one of those where it was kind of a almost like an aha moment where you realize that the way we've been interacting isn't functioning in a healthy way. But for the two of you, it was this idea of kind of going back and forth and seeing if you could make it work and then realizing you couldn't. Um was there any other piece to that that kept you from divorcing after the first separation?

SPEAKER_01 6:21

Mine was Mason the first time and being raised how I was, of course, that you were supposed to be in it for life. Like, and this was not how my future was supposed to be. Like you were supposed to stay married. This is what your idea was. Right. That you had to stay together forever. Yeah. And then when it just kept getting worse and worse, I was like, no, I need I deserve to be happy too. He deserves to be happy. And it's not fair to the kid.

SPEAKER_03 6:54

That's very true. What about you, Kat? What kept you from realizing after the first time that you you know you're not just gonna get divorced, you're gonna keep it going.

SPEAKER_00 7:03

Kids, definitely. And um, somewhere along the way, I got some advice from a happily divorced co-worker who told me kids are tough. If they see you happy, they'll be happy, whether you're married or not.

SPEAKER_02 7:19

That is true. Kids are very resilient.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

Yeah. And it got to the point where I her and I both were so unhappy, we're like, we we gotta change something.

SPEAKER_02 7:30

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

Because it's not getting better.

SPEAKER_02 7:32

And in my practice, I even see families that are struggling with, you know, they're contemplating on do I get divorced, do I separate, what do I do? And then their children are involved, and the children notice that, they feel that, they see that, and that's that's really hard on the kids when they see their parents fighting all the time.

unknown 7:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

When we told the kids that we were finally going through with it, both of them were in agreement and said it's about time.

SPEAKER_01 7:58

Yeah, Mason was like, Yeah, I knew it was coming. What's the big deal? All right, moving on.

SPEAKER_03 8:03

It's funny how we make these things a bigger deal because we think that it's going to hurt them. But having seen what's happened with you, Kent, and your relationship with your kids and how they get to see what a bad relationship was looking like, and then a good relationship, it actually gave them quite a bit of perspective and the ability to choose what they wanted for themselves.

SPEAKER_02 8:29

So just reflecting on your divorces and everything, do you guys have like one strong type of emotion towards the divorce?

SPEAKER_03 8:38

Other than relief.

SPEAKER_02 8:40

Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:41

Um, it was a lot of grief, anger. There was fear because was I gonna be able to do it on my own? And in the end, I there was a lot of proof that hey, look it, I am able to stand on my own. But it was it wasn't even anger at him or myself, it was anger at the situation.

SPEAKER_03 9:00

Why at the situation?

SPEAKER_01 9:01

That like again, this was not how I pictured it to be. It was not supposed to be like this. If it felt like I did something wrong, like and don't get me wrong, yes, I take accountability, I was not the perfect wife, the perfect person, whatever. But it was just the whole situation, and of course, again, like the grief. Like, how did I let this fall apart? And it wasn't supposed to end like this. And then embarrassment, embarrassment was huge. When we first decided to do this, I didn't tell anybody but my immediate family, and I was just embarrassed by it. Like, I have some family that is all divorced. I have other family that is like you can't get divorced. That's just it it doesn't work that way, and it's you have to stick it out no matter what. What was the embarrassing aspect of it for you? Because I couldn't do it. Okay. Like I couldn't hold I couldn't hold my family together. What about you, Kent?

SPEAKER_00 10:05

Besides relief, one of the other emotions going through was fear.

SPEAKER_03 10:11

Why fear?

SPEAKER_00 10:12

Fear that she would take the kids. And even though they were old enough where custody wasn't really a thing, it was fear that she would get into their heads and make me the to be the devil. Those were relationships I didn't want to give up on.

SPEAKER_03 10:31

Right. And I think that's important why we have you and Courtney here. We have both male and female perspective because that is a legitimate fear. And I know for a lot of men that's a fear that they're gonna lose that relationship with their children.

SPEAKER_02 10:45

And also in therapy, um, we often see the end of a relationship can trigger many emotional responses similar to grief, like what you guys were talking about. Individuals may experience many different emotions from disbelief, feeling emotionally overwhelmed, or a sense that their world has suddenly shifted.

SPEAKER_03 11:03

In thanatology, we often talk about grief as the process of adapting to loss. So with divorce, the loss isn't just the partner. It's also, as you said, Courtney, like this isn't what I imagined. This isn't the future that I imagined. And that's a big one. You're losing that future that you had imagined with that person. And even times, sometimes the relationships that um came with that person, whether it was their family, things like that, that maybe you are no longer allowed to have. I'm curious for both of you, when you think back to that time, what did you feel like you lost besides the relationship with your ex?

SPEAKER_00 11:41

Uh, half a family. Uh, because I while the relationship with my wife was not all that great and coming apart at the seams, I still got along really well with the rest of her family.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

What about you, Courtney? I feel like I can't say I lost anything. If anything, I gained because I had a lot more friends come back. And uh, his family I still talk to, they still reach out to me. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_03 12:12

For me, when I went through divorce, I completely lost my ex's family, which I actually really do miss his mother and his brothers because they were very nice to me and they were really fun people to be around. Um, the moment we got divorced, it it was like poof, they were gone.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

I mean, I miss like getting together with them and everything, like we used to and stuff like that. We don't have that, but they still reach out and like, hey, how's it going? Stuff like that. I still talk to one quite frequently, but still have connections with them. I do miss like, you know, the holiday stuff like that. But like I said, I feel like I gained more. I have friends that were like, hey, you know, I miss us, I miss this. And the friends that I did lose, I don't think were friends in the first place.

SPEAKER_03 13:00

Yeah. So in grief studies, we sometimes refer to these as secondary losses. It's that ripple effect that follow a major life change. So a divorce, this often involves many of layered losses, things that we don't even realize we're gonna lose until you're in the midst of it. So there's a concept in grief studies that we call disenfranchised grief. And it was developed by Kenneth Doika, and it describes losses that society doesn't always recognize or validate. For example, people going through divorce might hear things like, Well, you're better off now, you'll find someone else, or hey, at least no one died.

SPEAKER_01 13:37

Wow.

unknown 13:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:39

So to either of you, did you feel like people around you understood the grief or the relief that you were experiencing?

SPEAKER_00 13:47

In my case, I can say yes, because I had other family and friends who'd gone through divorces much more dangerous and complicated than what mine was.

SPEAKER_02 13:58

So you probably lost a lot of friendships, a lot of relationships.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

Yeah. What about you, Court?

SPEAKER_02 14:04

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

I had a huge support system. It was yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:08

You're pretty lucky though.

SPEAKER_03 14:09

You both are actually. Yeah. Because for a lot of people, that that oftentimes isn't the case, especially if you're in a very religious family. Right. Where divorce is seen as something you just don't do, period. Too bad. Suck it up.

SPEAKER_01 14:22

Yeah, I did have a few people that said I needed to pray about it some more and continue therapy. And I was like, I'm nope, done. It's done.

SPEAKER_03 14:31

I had a I had a family member tell me that I had I had to find Jesus again when I was going through divorce. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:38

In therapy, we often see that when grief is minimized, people may feel like they have to hide their pain. When grief is hidden, healing can become much harder.

SPEAKER_03 14:49

So we talked about at the very beginning for both of you that relief was one of the strong emotions that you felt. And so we're gonna circle back to that right now. We know that not everyone experiences divorce primarily as grief. And as you two pointed out, one of the strongest emotions that you felt was actually relief. And thanatology, we understand that loss can bring many different emotions all at the same time.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

This has come up in some of my sessions recently. If someone has like been in a high conflict relationship or in an emotional exhausting relationship, the end of that relationship can feel like a release for them. And when people feel relief, they sometimes worry that something is wrong with them and that they should maybe even feel sad instead. But emotional responses to divorce can vary from person to person.

SPEAKER_03 15:38

And sometimes you can feel both relief and sadness at the same time. And in grief research, we sometimes talk about ambivalence in relationships where love and pain coexists. So when a marriage ends and someone might feel grief for what was hoped for, then there's relief from what was difficult and uncertainty about what comes next. So grief isn't always about missing the person. Sometimes it's just about mourning the life we thought we were going to have.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

I'm curious for both of you. Did relief come right away or later?

SPEAKER_01 16:08

Both. Why both? Because it was just a relief that, okay, we finally made a decision.

SPEAKER_04 16:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:14

And later because I wasn't having to walk on eggshells daily, constantly. There was no fights all the time. And it was just there was no constant battles all the time. That had to be right. Kid and I could live without having to, oh well, there's a fight again, or just it was just relief. What about you, Kat?

SPEAKER_00 16:37

I will agree with both.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

How so for you?

SPEAKER_00 16:40

Um, the initial relief of yes, we're finally gonna go through with this and end this marriage, and then um then there was a bundle of nerves while it was ending, and um, because of all the what ifs and and then once it was finally done, like walking out of that courthouse was it felt like a thousand pounds came off my shoulders.

SPEAKER_02 17:04

So did you feel conflicted about this really feeling, Kent?

SPEAKER_00 17:07

No. Maybe I was supposed to, but no, I didn't.

SPEAKER_03 17:11

I don't think you're supposed to. I think that's an honest response. I agree, I agree. What about you, Courtney?

SPEAKER_01 17:17

I don't think so. Just once because ours was over Zoom that it was still having COVID rules, and and it was on our anniversary date, so it was like a perfect circle. It felt like it was just meant to be.

SPEAKER_02 17:32

You know, speaking of COVID and how divorce was proceeding was like that way. Was yours wasn't that way, was it, Kent? When you when you got divorced, you were in a courthouse? So when you were in the courthouse, I mean, you can feel other people's emotions or feelings, right? You could feel the the tension from others. Did you experience any of that?

SPEAKER_00 17:52

During proceedings from my own divorce, I'd say no.

SPEAKER_02 17:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:56

But there were other couples there who came in before us who had none of their stuff together, nothing ready to go. And I kind of felt bad for them because they wanted their marriage to be done, but they didn't do any of the work for it. Uh like showing up to school without your homework.

SPEAKER_03 18:15

Right. I thought your ex though didn't have everything finished either.

SPEAKER_00 18:18

That's right, she didn't. We got pushed back an hour so that we could finish filling out her copies of the paperwork.

SPEAKER_02 18:27

So when you were going through your divorce through the COVID, you know, you had Zoom meetings. Well, how was that experience for you? Because that had to been different, right?

SPEAKER_01 18:36

Oh, absolutely. It was super weird. I was like, oh, so we don't have to go. And yet it wasn't because then I didn't have to sit there with him. Like you don't have to take on his feelings, I felt like. Right. I bet it was was it a little easier for you, you think? A little bit. Yeah. Because like I said, then I don't have to take on, I'm very empathetic. Right. And so I don't have to like, yeah, you can still pick up his feelings, but you don't have to you don't have to look at his personal space.

SPEAKER_03 19:05

Right, right. When I went through my own divorce in 2014, I was the one who asked for the divorce. I kind of blindsided my ex-husband with it. And when we were at the courthouse, we were both getting along perfectly fine. But the whole reason we were getting along perfectly fine is because I pretty much gave in and took on all the things he didn't want to, aka our debt. And I remember being in front of the judge, and the judge knew my knows my family well. Um, he's been actually, I guess, a friend of my grandparents. And he looked at me and said to me very point-blankly in that courtroom, Are you sure this is what you want to do with that debt? He has every right to have to take on half of it. I said, No, no, I'll I'll take it because I was feeling guilty for asking for that divorce. And I thought, well, if I'm the one who's asking for this, I should have to be the one who takes on the most consequences. And as hard as that was, I look back at it now because I did end up having to go through bankruptcy because of that. And that was, I think, more humiliating to me than my actual divorce was. But looking at it now, that actually moved me in the direction of where I am currently. So without having to go through that, I don't know if I would have ended up working in the financial world, working with people all the time, and then also working in thanatology.

SPEAKER_02 20:44

That makes sense. Yeah. So I have a question to all three of you actually. So, how do you think others responded to the way that your emotions were about the divorce?

SPEAKER_03 20:54

So honestly, for me, a lot of people didn't even recognize like divorce was a deal for me. Because I was the one who had asked for the divorce, they figured that there was no grief. There was nothing for emotions. So I remember sitting home the first Christmas Eve after my divorce. Um, actually, it was the first Christmas Eve after my separation. I wasn't divorced yet. And nobody, not a single person in my family asked how I was doing that night. They didn't invite me to anything. They like it was like it was no big deal. Because traditionally, in the past, I would have gone to my ex's family's house for Christmas Eve. Okay. But this time around, obviously, I'm not gonna go to his family's house for Christmas Eve. And none of my family picked up on that. And that was probably one of the hardest things I went through at that time. I felt like an absolute Absolute island and that nobody cared, which was not the case, but at the same time, I still get a little feisty about it. So it's like, what the hell?

unknown 22:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:12

Why didn't you figure I was not I was gonna be alone? You should have known this. But when it's not us in it, we don't always see that. Right. That's true. What about you, Kent?

SPEAKER_00 22:21

Um, most of the people that knew what my situation was were supportive of it no matter how I was feeling that day. Because yeah, as you're going through it, you've got good days, you've got bad days.

SPEAKER_04 22:34

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

And um, I didn't really have any problems. I didn't have any people who were judgmental about it. If I was having a bad day, they'd usually do something to poke me in the butt and cheer me up.

SPEAKER_03 22:46

So, Courtney, did you feel like others recognized the emotions that you were feeling during your divorce?

SPEAKER_01 22:51

My support group did, but I mean, I kept my grief to myself for the most part, but I also had a glow-up. Oh, explain that.

SPEAKER_00 23:00

Yeah, what's that?

SPEAKER_01 23:03

I just was in a better head space. I was better. I got off my depression meds. Wow. I got off a lot of my meds. I no longer needed them. Everybody was like, I have not seen you this good in years.

SPEAKER_04 23:20

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

Like I was almost depressed that my dad missed this. I was more depressed about that than the divorce.

SPEAKER_04 23:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:28

Like I was in so much better headspace.

SPEAKER_03 23:31

Wow. And that's the interesting thing about divorce is that there was grief and there's good. And sometimes one of those emotions can kind of take over. So for some people, when it's unexpected and they don't realize that it's, you know, someone's gonna ask their spouse is gonna ask them for a divorce, grief is usually what overcomes them.

SPEAKER_01 23:53

But I also think between the time that we separated and the divorce, I also was grieving and mourning in that time that by the time the divorce actually hit, right? It was like, yes, I was I had that embarrassment and all that stuff, but I was already like done and over. I was like, you know what? Fine. Yeah, you're done. You accepted it by then.

SPEAKER_00 24:12

Yeah, I'll agree to that same kind of time frame about the last year that I was married before we went through with the divorce that her and I lived separately. And it was during that time where you run through all the different emotions and come to terms with it, really.

SPEAKER_02 24:32

Yeah, yeah, you process through them.

SPEAKER_03 24:34

Yep. And this is the big thing in phenatology, too, is that when we talk about non-death losses, we want to recognize the fact that, you know, in grief research, it shows that loss rarely just produces one emotion. And that sometimes you run through some of the grief emotions before the end and not just at the end. So it's a mixture of feelings that often shift over time.

SPEAKER_02 24:59

And one of the biggest changes after divorce can be the identity. So people may have spent like years seeing themselves as a partnership. I'm curious for the both of you, or all three of you, did divorce change how you saw yourself?

SPEAKER_03 25:13

Absolutely. Yeah. I kind of went through the same thing as Courtney did. I realized that I had lived a life full of fear when I was married. And part of the reason that that life was full of fear is I got married not long after my mother passed away unexpectedly. So I almost used my marriage as a way of coping with that loss. And when I got divorced, I was scared of being alone, but at the same time, it was giving me that opportunity to confront that. And I took it as that. And it changed who I became. Because prior to that, I felt like I had to be somebody else for everybody else.

SPEAKER_01 26:02

How about you, Courtney? It was weird because we were together longer than we were apart. I was with them for 25 years. So I was with them since I was 16, 17. So then you have grown. You've grown in different stages of your life. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. To then all of a sudden be single again in your 40s, it is totally different. Yeah, it is. Yeah. It is really weird. But you know what? I'm enjoying this time right now. But like my sister said, I didn't get this time when I was younger. And I get what that's like, I didn't either.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

Same.

SPEAKER_03 26:39

It's so it's kind of liberating in some ways. Like it's kind of like going from being a kid to suddenly you now you're an adult. Yeah. Like you we we were all married pretty young, and you just it's like I'm a kid, and now I've got adult responsibilities, and I have to start acting like an adult. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

There was nobody in my bridal party that was old enough to drink.

SPEAKER_03 27:02

How old were you when you got married, Ken?

SPEAKER_00 27:04

Uh 20.

SPEAKER_03 27:06

I was 22, but engaged at 19. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

Yep. I was engaged at 20. We got married at 22, had Mason at 23. Wow, you really you guys were all very young.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

We're all checking the boxes real quick. Yeah, you guys got it.

SPEAKER_02 27:23

I mean, that's what you do in a small town. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 27:27

I think that's also why I encourage younger people not to rush things so quickly. And not even just marriage, but like getting into having kids and all of that. It's almost like as a society, we have these boxes, like you said, that have to be checked. And okay, I gotta get this checked and this checked. And we're not asking ourselves whether or not we really want that. And I never took the time to ask myself, did I really want to be married to this person? It just seemed like it was the right thing to do.

SPEAKER_02 27:56

Because that's what society tells us.

SPEAKER_03 27:58

Right. And it's terrible because when I look at my ex-husband as a person, he's a very nice person. He's very considerate. We get along better divorced than we did as married. Like we can be friends, but I don't think we ever should have gotten married.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

That's the thing, is that we were together for four years, three, four years, and people were telling him, You need to make a decision because you need to get become engaged, get married. Yes. And it was like, I don't think he would have proposed, and I would have been all for that. And then it was like, oh, well, now you need to get married now. I'm like, no, we can wait. No, your your time's up. You've been together for too long. You need and it was like, we should have taken a lot more time and thought about it. And I don't regret what I did because we do have the kid now, but other people have said no matter what, you would have still ended up with the kid you have. And I was like, oh, that's a good point. But you know, we did have good years, we did have good times. Yeah. Yep. We did too. But I don't think we should have done what we did because listening to other people.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:04

What about you, Ken?

SPEAKER_00 29:05

Well, we started off by checking box number three and then went back to work on box number one and two. Because while you've got a kid together, you really should get married and be a proper family. So then we went back and we got married and bought a house and then had another kid and without ever actually standing back and saying, Is this the right person for you to be with?

SPEAKER_02 29:34

So I'm just curious, what helped you and to begin to rebuild your sense of self?

SPEAKER_00 29:40

Work.

SPEAKER_02 29:41

Your work. Why work? I was just gonna ask that.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

Because throughout my adult life, work has been the one constant for me. So I've had the same job since I was 21.

SPEAKER_04 29:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 29:53

And you know, I spent more time with the coworkers than I did with my own family some weeks. Well, that's good. So in other words, it was your co-workers. You weren't ignoring your feelings. Um, not really ignoring them, but my co-workers were part of my support group. Good.

SPEAKER_01 30:09

How about you, Courtney? I would say my support group and my kid were huge. The kid was always like, Oh, you got this, you have to get this. And my family stepped up. You have no choice. You pretty much get this. You have to. And I did, I really did. I had to step up, and it was like, you have no choice. You have to. And you know what? That was what really got me through. Is like, hey, he always put doubt in my head that I couldn't do it. Yeah. And that's more of look at me. I am doing it and I am getting through it.

SPEAKER_03 30:41

And I don't need you.

SPEAKER_01 30:42

And I don't need to do it. No, I don't need anybody. Yeah. Once in a while, I'll need the kid, like, hey, you need to pay your phone bill. But no, and I my family and my friends, they are amazing.

SPEAKER_02 30:55

I bet you that empowerment felt so good.

SPEAKER_01 30:57

It does. After especially after years of saying that you are nothing, you don't, you need me, you I am the support and all this other stuff. Like, no, look at me. I've got this, I can do this. Yes, you can. I don't need anybody.

SPEAKER_03 31:14

That's right. What about you, Jen? That's a hard one for me because I don't think I knew who I was to begin with. So it was more like discovering my sense of self because growing up the youngest and always trying to be a people pleaser, and then my mom passing away when I was 20 and losing that person that I felt like understood me, and then trying to find that same thing in my ex and thinking I had, but realizing I really hadn't. It was it was shattering when it hit me that it all seemed like I was putting on a show the whole time. So I had to figure out who I was, and that was through a lot of mistakes. And there's things that I did during my single years that I look back and go, holy shit, how did you not die?

SPEAKER_02 32:11

I think we all can say that. Yeah, but they're so fun.

SPEAKER_03 32:15

I know, but it was like, whoa, that was dangerous behavior. Um, and yet it allowed me to try things out that I was too afraid to do prior and go, yeah, I can do this. Or no, that's not really a good idea. Um, that's very dangerous to do. And honestly, it was weirdly enough for me meeting somebody who's sitting across the table from me now that I married Courtney. Uh yes, when I married Courtney. When I married Kent, um, no, when I met Kent. And just seeing him going through his divorce too. Because you know, we were going through our divorces at the same time. We were both separated, um, but our divorces weren't quite finalized yet. And that actually helped me become a lot stronger. And I, as hard as it was with his ex-wife and how little she liked me at the time, um, I have to credit her because in some ways she made me a fighter and made me somebody who became a lot more willing to hang in there and uh hold on to my convictions. It empowered you more too. It did in a really weird roundabout way, it did. And at the time I was so angry with her, and now I think about well, clearly I needed that. I don't ever want to have to go through it again, don't get me wrong. Right, right. Like we can just leave that in the past, but at the same time, I I am thankful that I went through it.

SPEAKER_02 33:43

So, what was that like for both of you that you guys were going through the divorce together, and you guys were both as a like a support person for each other, also?

SPEAKER_00 33:51

Tough. Yeah, it wasn't easy. Um, her divorce was arguably simpler than mine because of uh no children involved there. But in the end, as far as us having a relationship, the the kids at my house seemed really good with it because they got to see me with somebody that made me happy, and it worked out really good in the end.

SPEAKER_03 34:13

There was bits and pieces in the middle that were really difficult. I think honestly, your divorce with your ex made you a better person.

SPEAKER_00 34:21

I agree. Because you had It made both of us better people.

SPEAKER_03 34:24

It did because you had to learn how to stand up for yourself. I feel like she kind of would railroad you at times um into thinking one way and that was the way it was gonna be, and you had to say no.

SPEAKER_02 34:36

Um and had to place that healthy boundary, and had to put a boundary in place.

SPEAKER_03 34:40

And there were times where that was really difficult for you, and I can see that. And and it also challenged me in the sense of, you know, having lost a parent and feeling like I had lost a a tight connection with my family because of that and because of my divorce, I you know, I was going through and was experiencing like codependency issues. So this idea of him coming at me at times and saying, Well, you know, my ex and I, we met and talk about the kids and I I can't be with you because she's threatening to, you know, take the kids away from me if I do. And as a person who's experienced codependency, that's like you feel like your world just got ripped from you, and you're going, Oh my god, what am I gonna do? Which I hated that and I knew that was going on, and I hated every moment of it. Like I hated myself in that moment. But um, that back and forth, and that happened several times. We'll we'll honor that. Happened several times. And um wow, yeah, it really challenged me. And but it needed to.

SPEAKER_02 35:39

Uh-huh. So yeah, that's how you guys grew in your relationship too.

SPEAKER_03 35:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:44

Look where you guys are now.

SPEAKER_03 35:45

So one thing we hear often in grief conversations is that certain moments can unexpectedly bring back a loss. And for people who've gone through divorce, those moments could be holidays, anniversaries, children's milestones, or even family gatherings. And I I shared with you the fact of like having to go through that first uh Christmas Eve by myself. And actually, you know, every time we come around that time of year, I remember what that felt like. I don't often talk about it, but I do remember it and how lonely it felt for myself. So for the two of you, were there moments that brought emotions back unexpectedly?

SPEAKER_01 36:23

So I it I don't know if it's really grief, but I know holiday times where the kid is like, hey, well, what time is this or where is this? When is this? Because he's gotta then split his time, which I knew was gonna happen because I again from families of divorce where you've got 10 Christmases and that was always a fight.

SPEAKER_04 36:42

Right.

SPEAKER_01 36:43

And I understand. And when the kid gets older and has a significant other, it's only gonna get worse because then he's gotta do that with his significant other. And I understand it's like then you need to split up time. Okay, only a couple hours here, a couple hours there, but it still kind of hurts because it's like, well, I gotta do this and I gotta do that.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

Yeah, it's gonna be more of a challenge if his significant other comes from a divorced family, too.

SPEAKER_01 37:08

Yep. And I tried explaining that to him because he did have a girlfriend for a while and he's like, I'm so sick of her family. I said, It's only gonna get worse, you know, if once you have kids and all this other stuff. And then you've got other times where his birthday came up and he wants both of us there, and it still is like I don't care, but it's still kind of uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_04 37:30

Right.

SPEAKER_01 37:31

Like I don't know if it's ever going to be comfortable where he still wants to be part of the family. I just I'm still trying to set my boundaries. Yeah, yeah. And that's valid.

SPEAKER_00 37:43

Still I mean that fence isn't staked into the ground real far, is it?

SPEAKER_01 37:47

No.

SPEAKER_00 37:48

It's something that has to be flexible.

SPEAKER_01 37:50

Yeah, and so it hasn't even been three years yet, and I there's just still a lot of hurt. And I just I mean, like I said, I don't hate him, but there's still a lot of hurt. So I'm but because of the kid, yes, I will do this for him, but I also don't want to be best friends with him either.

SPEAKER_03 38:15

Right.

SPEAKER_01 38:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:16

What about you, Kent?

SPEAKER_00 38:17

Um, I'll agree with you ladies as far as the holidays being a little more of a challenge. In my case, though, it really opened up my schedule because all of a sudden I didn't have to go to two more Christmases. Um, my kids still did, and thankfully they're old enough to make their own decisions as to which Christmases and where they want to be and what they want to attend, but they do pretty good about splitting up their time between where it needs to go.

SPEAKER_03 38:45

And I think we also have a little bit more time behind us now because Kent and I have both, you know, got divorced in 2014, and it's been almost 12 years since our our divorces are only a couple weeks apart. And once you've had enough like going to the kids' um gatherings and the ex is there, or I think about like christenings that we've been to, baptisms, those kinds of things, where they're taking family pictures and it's like we joke about it now, which switch out the Jennifer, okay, get the other one. We're at that point where we can start to joke about it again and and laugh about how we're a blended family, but that was not always the case.

SPEAKER_02 39:30

And I bet you the children are doing so much better for that, also.

SPEAKER_03 39:35

Yes, because there's one thing that I made sure I never did when he was going through his divorce, and that was speak poorly about their mother. Um, I encouraged them to have a really good relationship with her, even though that was hard for me because of what had happened between us, but I did not want them to lose her because I had lost a parent. Right. And I didn't want them to purposefully lose a parent when they don't have to.

SPEAKER_02 40:04

For someone listening to this podcast right now who might be going through a divorce themselves, what helped you the most during the healing process?

SPEAKER_01 40:11

I feel like I'm reiterating this a lot, but your support system. I had a lot of my friends had already gone through divorce and they kind of were like, Well, this is what's gonna happen. This is what's gonna be coming up. And I, like I said, had an amazing support system.

SPEAKER_02 40:29

How about you, Ken?

SPEAKER_00 40:30

Knowing that whatever comes of it is gonna be better than where you were at.

SPEAKER_03 40:35

Yes, that too. I think that's what got me through mine because unlike the two of you, I actually didn't really have a support system going through divorce. Nobody wanted to talk to me about it. Nobody I that I knew had gone through divorce other than my siblings. And for some reason, it was almost like, we don't want to talk about this with you. Um, my one sister was probably the one I could lean on the most, and she's my eldest sister, and she did the best she could, but at the same time, you know, you can't just lean on one person constantly. So for me, the best thing that I could do was take the time to figure out who I am. Whether I I did journaling, I did a lot of different things, tried new things. Um, but I had to figure out who I was then.

SPEAKER_01 41:24

Oh, that just gave me a memory. I did shadow work right before I went through the divorce. That might have helped a lot.

SPEAKER_02 41:31

Oh, yeah. That makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 41:33

What's shadow work?

SPEAKER_01 41:34

Oh, I will give you Jen's information. She'll help you.

SPEAKER_00 41:37

I don't know about that.

SPEAKER_01 41:39

He might be at Beyond Help. Ouch. She loves you too.

SPEAKER_03 41:46

Yeah, I know the fat lip tells me so. What do you wish people had understood about your experience during that time? I know for me, I wish people would have realized that even though I asked for the divorce, it was still a really difficult experience for me. That I wasn't just perfectly fine. I was lonely, I was scared. And I wish people would have reached out to me more because I was too afraid to reach out to them. And I felt like I was trying to do this all alone. And it was it was tough. I bet. What about you, Kent? What do you wish people had understood about your experience during that time?

SPEAKER_00 42:28

I don't really have a good comment for this because I had enough people to fall back on that uh everyone knew what was happening. It wasn't taking anyone by surprise.

SPEAKER_01 42:39

Okay. What about you, Courtney? My biggest issue with that at that time was everyone was trying to push their religion on me. Like, oh, you need to pray more. Oh, maybe if you found God or Jesus. Like that was my biggest issue at that time. Like, no, thank you. Please just I'm good. I got what I need, thank you.

unknown 43:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:03

So when we look at divorce, it just reminds us that grief isn't limited to death. We grieve whenever something meaningful in our life ends. And sometimes that grief does also involve relief. The end of a marriage can represent the loss of a shared story, a future that once felt certain, and sometimes even a version of ourselves.

SPEAKER_02 43:25

And people may experience the loss in many different ways. For some, it may feel like grief. For others, it may feel like relief, and for many, it may be a mixture of both.

SPEAKER_03 43:36

But what matters is recognizing that these emotional experiences, they're real and they're worthy of acknowledgement. So to Kent and Courtney, I thank you all a ton for sharing your stories with us today.

SPEAKER_02 43:48

And to everyone listening, if you are experiencing an invisible loss, please know that your grief and your relief or whatever you're feeling deserves space and compassion.

SPEAKER_03 44:03

As we close today, we want to leave you with this reminder. Contrary to what has often been taught, grief does not happen in stages. It ebbs and flows like a tide. When you are grieving, you may find yourself capable of handling daily tasks and re-entering life, only to be suddenly halted by waves of pain that take your breath away. If this is where you are, nothing's wrong with you. Your grief is not a failure to move on, it is a reflection of love, meaning, and the losses that often go unseen. Thank you for joining us today on the Invisible Loss Podcast.

SPEAKER_02 44:41

Where the losses that are often unseen are finally given a voice. May you offer yourself the same gentleness you so freely give to others, especially where your loss goes unseen.