Military Life & Deployment

 Military deployment is often framed around service, sacrifice, and reunion, but what’s talked about far less is the quiet, ongoing loss that lives in between those moments; in this episode, Barbara and Jenn are joined by guest Claudia, a military spouse with 30 plus years of experience, to explore the invisible grief that can come with deployment—the missing everyday moments, the shifting roles at home, and the emotional distance that can grow even when love remains steady. Together, they talk about what it means to live in that “in-between” space where someone is both here and not here, how that ambiguity impacts identity and connection for both families and service members, and how we can begin to name and navigate this experience with more awareness, language, and compassion. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:11

Welcome to the Invisible Loss Podcast, where your hosts Jen and Barbara. If you've ever found yourself grieving something that doesn't seem to count in the eyes of the world, if you've ever wondered why a loss that isn't about death can still hurt so deeply, you're in the right place. We're really glad you're here.

SPEAKER_04 0:30

This podcast is for the grief that doesn't always come with funerals, casseroles, or clear permission to mourn. The kind of grief that's quiet, confusing, and even often carried alone.

SPEAKER_05 0:44

Invisible loss exists because not all grief looks the same. And not all losses are recognized, named, or supported. Yet they still shape us.

SPEAKER_04 0:58

Our discussion is educational and reflective. It is not a substitute for therapy. Please honor your own well-being while listening.

SPEAKER_05 1:08

Today's episode is one that I think a lot of people recognize but don't always name as grief. We're talking about military deployment today and what it means for the families who stay behind.

SPEAKER_04 1:19

Yeah, and especially the emotional experience of that. Because on the outside, it can look like they'll be back, but on the inside, it can feel like a loss that happens over and over again.

SPEAKER_05 1:31

Exactly. And that's really where this fits into what we're talking about here: non-death loss. Because nothing has ended, but everything has changed. And we're really lucky today to be joined by Claudia, who brings lived experience as a military spouse. Claudia, we're so glad that you're here.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

Hi, thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_05 1:52

Claudia, can you give us a little background information on yourself?

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Yes, I'd love to. I was an active duty army spouse for over 30 years. And during that time, we moved around 11 times.

SPEAKER_05 2:06

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Might sound like a lot, but in actuality, I had friends who moved 20 plus moves. So 11 times isn't too bad, but when you have kids, it can take its toll. Now, my husband was in the military in the army for over 36 years, and he held every position imaginable as an enlisted soldier. We retired in 2018, and he decided to get what he calls a hobby job now. So, which is fine. And he needed something else to get his fix, so to speak. And that happens with a lot of military than when they retire, a lot of soldiers, a lot of airmen. So I'm glad he has a hobby job to keep him occupied.

SPEAKER_05 3:12

So that you still can stay married.

SPEAKER_01 3:15

Well, yeah, exactly. So you can still come home. That's very true. Um, not only am I a spouse, but I was also a dependent daughter. Uh, when my stepdad married my mom. And that moving around became very unnormal the first couple of times. It was exciting at first, and then it became like, oh no, not again. Because you just make friendships and you don't know if you're ever gonna see them again.

SPEAKER_04 3:46

And just a fun fact, um, everybody, Claudia is my sister. So I Barbara taught that I do have a little bit of experience with her also by moving a lot.

SPEAKER_05 3:55

So wow, yeah. Yeah, we did move a lot. How many times did you two move together with your father, your stepfather?

SPEAKER_04 4:05

So that was I was born in Germany, and that was I was like five, wasn't I, Claudia? When I when we moved, was I five or six?

SPEAKER_01 4:13

No, you were uh barely two. You had your second birthday at Fort Knox.

SPEAKER_04 4:18

Oh, wait, I thought we moved to Texas when I was two.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

We m we did. We moved to Texas, that was one move, and then eight months later we moved to Fort Knox, that's two, and then we moved back to Germany, so that's three. We moved back to the states, that's four.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

Then you were like six or seven, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:40

Wow. Yep. Wow. Yeah. And that's after, you know, Claudia was she's she's older than me. So then, you know, she got to move out of the house and do her thing. And then I still my dad was still in the military, so then I continued to go back and forth with them too.

SPEAKER_05 4:54

So what's interesting is, you know, we're focusing on deployment today, but let's take a second just to talk about this part of it, which is the moving. Yeah. Even when your spouse isn't deployed away from you or your your parent isn't deployed away from you, you're still having losses because you're moving all the time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:12

We've had a we've lost a lot of friends just because we didn't have Facebook back then, right?

SPEAKER_05 5:17

Right.

SPEAKER_04 5:18

So it wasn't supposed to be what's called the notes you passed in class, or like a stamp, like a letter, and what is gonna be written a letter and no, not I don't think any of us did.

SPEAKER_05 5:31

So did you find both of you or either of you? Did you find it like I know Claudia said you it was hard to make friends because you didn't know if you were gonna be able to keep them for very long. Did you feel that same way, Barbara?

SPEAKER_04 5:42

I did, but I feel like Claudia had it a lot harder than I did because I grew up in America and Claudia was she was German, so she was 12. Am I right? 12 years old when you entered the American school district?

SPEAKER_01 5:56

I was 10.

SPEAKER_04 5:57

10. Okay. Yeah. So she had to learn a whole new language. She didn't even know the whole new culture. Oh, you didn't even know any English at that time. No. Oh.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:08

Oh wow. Yeah. So she she had to learn everything. And that that would have had I I could only imagine the the grief that you were going through there, though that loss of from your own friends in in the German schools and then moving it over to the American schools.

SPEAKER_05 6:23

I mean, we could really even touch in on culture too, because there's there's big cultural differences and losing that culture or being out of it and not having that as you know part of your life at the moment is really difficult. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:37

Yeah. And then moving and moving to a different country. I can only imagine how how my sister felt with that, or any of my siblings felt like that, because I I grew up that way. I was born into this, so it didn't affect me. I I'm not as hard as what it would my siblings.

SPEAKER_05 6:54

So who's the oldest in the family? Claudia. Okay. Okay. So you were the one that really had both lives. You had your life in Germany and then your life here in the US. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

Yes. I I know our other sister, Marion, she remembers tidbits of it, but um, I don't think she was as immersed as I was. I went to school. I, you know, I I was totally German.

SPEAKER_05 7:22

Wow. So wow.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

Yeah. Yeah. And our brother, my brother was two when uh my mom and dad got married, my stepdad got married. So it uh he was totally immersed as well. Uh he doesn't remember, you know, speaking German. Uh our sister Marian, she does, but um now they're they're have more of an accent when they talk German because it's very broken.

SPEAKER_04 7:53

You have an accent.

SPEAKER_01 7:55

It's not in their life every day.

SPEAKER_05 7:57

You have an accent, lady. What are you talking about? When she speaks German or English.

SPEAKER_04 8:01

No, when she speaks English, can't you hear it?

SPEAKER_05 8:03

I can hear it, but it's okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:05

I know.

SPEAKER_05 8:07

You sound like our mom, but that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

You can even hear it more because my allergies are acting up. So my my I'm I'm a little congested. So you can hear it. Yeah, you are. Yeah. Yep.

SPEAKER_05 8:20

Yeah. Well, I'm gonna steer us back to the the episode topic. So we're gonna start kind of at the beginning for you here, Claudia. We'd love to just, you know, have you tell us about what you remember, what it felt like the first time deployment became real for you, like that first deployment that your your husband had.

SPEAKER_01 8:39

Well, I I have to give a little bit of a backstory to that before I go into it, because when my husband and I married, he was he was in the 82nd airborne. That meant at that time, this was in the 80s and 90s, where um it it was very different than it is now due to a lot of different factors. But back then, um they were always ready to go at a moment's notice. They are still that way now, but they have a different kind of heads up than they do back then in the 90s. And so our first deployment was in 1994. Uh, we had an eight-year-old, which was my stepdaughter, a seven-year-old, which was our daughter, and an eight-month-old. And so he had just been gone for four months after our daughter was born to a school down in Florida. When he came back, within a month, we were told there could be a possible deployment.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

I had no idea what was coming at me. And give kudos to my husband who, you know, always told me, if you see me worrying, then you can worry. But we're gonna, you know, make everything smooth riding for you. We'll make sure the bills are caught up. Um, did you know, you know, where everything is at, uh, we have passports, I mean, just everything was set. So when he left, which could have been at, you know, the next day, three weeks, three days, we just never knew. Wow. And so when that call did come, um, and with the 82nd, you know, they they jump. He would even though he was a tanker, they would load up the tank and that would also drop. Wow. And then the guys would come out. So the first deployment was to Haiti. Now, I didn't know that was it was going to be Haiti until about I want to say two weeks before he got the alert, which was through a beeper. Really, really old.

SPEAKER_05 11:00

But uh I remember those days.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

So, and you know, we didn't have cell phones. We had a I did have a brick phone, but it was not like it is nowadays where you could call to different countries, or heck, I even occurred a a a big bill because I was I would call my mom or the house phone or whatever. So it was only used for emergencies back then. Well, he didn't have any kind of phone with him. So when he deployed when he left, uh there was anxiety on my part, fear, um, emotional upheaval because I was going to be a single parent I don't and I don't know for how long, or if it was gonna be forever. So there was all these emotions as you're you know saying goodbye to your spouse and you're trying to keep a brave face because of your kids. So the anxiousness when he would say his last goodbye is that we would try to keep it very light, and of course, thank goodness our kids were young enough to think that they were that he was going to a um field exercise because we really didn't know how long he was going to be gone. And another great thing was back then the news was not 24-7. Right. So there was no one embedded with them like they can be after 9-11. Um so those emotions I had to keep in check. So what we did was I kept them occupied, you know, school activities, and we would draw pictures, we would do letters, and I would have to take them to his company complex and drop them off, and they would take it into a big mailbag and ship it to Haiti. And I remember we were sitting at home and all of a sudden our landline phone rang and I didn't recognize the number. Well, it was a Mars, which is a military army resource or something. And as he goes, Claudia, it's Dave, over. And I said, Hi, over. So we were able to talk for 10 minutes. Wow. Just so I knew that he was safe. When he came back, which was only I think like 40 days, maybe he was gone. When he came back, none of the letters that we had written to him made it to him. Wow. He got it all when he got back to the company.

SPEAKER_04 14:00

Oh wow. That almost sounds like daddy. Like when we would send packages to him when he was in in desert storm, like he didn't get a lot of the stuff either. And like a lot of the packages that he sent to us, he got well, we got them after he was already home. It was like, what in the world?

SPEAKER_01 14:19

Yeah. Yep. So so that was our first deployment, and it opened my eyes. The the good thing was we lived on the installation. So some of the other spouses in my neighborhood were going through the same thing because they were either. I had a couple of girlfriends that were Delta Force spouses.

SPEAKER_04 14:43

You might have to explain forces to them what installation means.

SPEAKER_01 14:47

Oh, the installation is the base. Okay. So, like Fort Bragg, Fort Hood. I know they have different names now. Don't ask me what they are.

SPEAKER_04 14:56

I can't keep up. It's just the different bases that you were on base. And uh was there like a lot of the military wives that lived off base?

SPEAKER_01 15:07

Yes. Most dis decide to live off base so they could have a more civilian kind of life that doesn't involve the military installation. Um, it's a little bit more private. The spouse can usually come home and relax. He doesn't have to worry about any kind of military uh neighbors, you know, kids, you name it. So it's like being that happens.

SPEAKER_04 15:35

So it's like being in the in like our civilization that we are currently in right now. The base life is not like that, though. It's more, what would you call that? Like more, you're you're just stuck in the military like the whole time, right? You're go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 15:49

Yeah, it it the military installation has its own community. We have the schools, libraries, grocery stores, uh, like a small department store called the Post Exchange. The grocery store is called the Commissary. Um, so it it really sustains its community. And most people get really surprised by that. And uh another thing that happens during deployments is a lot of spouses do not leave the installation. Yeah. So they stay in their own little bubble, and that can be a little detrimental because you are keeping yourself away from any kind of contact or support system. And I I've seen I've seen that happen over the 30 years of where spouses just are not very happy that their spouse is in the military. Yeah. So and that's why you get a few that want to totally have nothing to do with the military, and they buy a house off the installation in the civilian side. And then when their spouses get orders, when their soldier gets orders, they sometimes opt to stay there because their kids are in school, they have a set life, they're integrated into that civilian community. And so sometimes the soldier uh just goes goes and does his military thing, two years in Korea, you know, two years in Germany, or at another installation in um in Europe or in the states. And the family has their base wherever that was. So I've seen that happen too. It's it's a big hidden side that most don't understand or ever seen.

SPEAKER_05 17:42

So kind of the opposite of that is what you guys did and what you did, Claudia, which is you know, if you're at the installation or the base, if your spouse is being moved, you're moving with them.

SPEAKER_04 17:54

Right. That's what we did. We did that.

SPEAKER_05 17:56

Yeah, versus if um you are in civilian life, there's less chance of you wanting to pick up and just move everything. You're gonna stay put, and then your spouse is gonna be overseas or gone for those two years and you don't see them.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 18:11

Okay. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

Yeah, we we we decided to make that uh uh that decision. We just we both decided that decision would be we would all move as a unit. Um, we would never voluntarily separate to where he goes somewhere for a couple years and comes back. Now, when he had to go to Korea, that was totally different because there were no families allowed at that time in the 80s and 90s. Now that has changed because they have a whole huge community. They have uh elementary, middle, and high school there now where families even with housing. So that has totally changed. Um but back then, when he went, there was no option for uh family to go with him. And uh so that made it a little harder. But we decided we would never be apart when the uh military offers us an opportunity to move, even in the States. We would go and explore that part of the US.

SPEAKER_05 19:16

So as somebody who's never had to deal with this, whether as a child or even as an adult, I you know it's fascinating to me because I think I often know it as people are staying behind because they're being forced to, but that's not really the case. They chose that civilian life and they're choosing to stay put versus choosing to be deployed um or go overseas with their spouse. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

It's it's a it I always saw it as a sacrifice. Um, and when I spoke to spouses, when they would say, Yeah, we're not moving. I don't care what he does, where he goes, that's his job. I will support him, but I'm keeping my nucleus family is gonna stay here, uh, be it, you know, Fort Pope, Louisiana, be it Fort Hood, be it San Antonio, wherever that is, they're they're gonna stay there and he will just go out and do his job and come back home. Does it did it work for them? I'm sure it did. Would it have worked for us? I'm sure it could have, but I didn't want to put my family, my kids through that where they would not have the other parent.

SPEAKER_05 20:37

I even think about the others, you know, the the the soldier, like what that must feel like to have to walk a almost like walk away for two years. Yeah, because your family is, you know, this is where we're gonna be, and this is we're gonna stay put here and you're coming back here. Right. Almost must feel like life moves on without them.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

Yeah. It it it really does. And it's hard. I always thought it was hard to plug back in when you're the other parent being gone for four months, and then you have to come home for you know a week. Right. You give you have to take leave to come home. It's not like you can come home for the weekend if your family's in North Carolina, but you're now in Texas. You can't drive 20 hours with your family for the weekend. Right. So you you're putting you know, med um money hardship on your family, emotional hardship on your family, and you have that unconnected with your kids, I think. There's no can a real deep connection, I think. But yeah, I'm I'm sure they made it work somehow. I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 21:47

Either way, you're sacrificing.

SPEAKER_01 21:48

Yeah, yeah.

unknown 21:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 21:50

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 21:51

So every everyone chooses differently, and the same thing with deployments. Um, you know, you you choose to what you're going to do during the Those hard times.

SPEAKER_04 22:01

Yep. I'm just wondering, Claudia, what felt like the biggest loss for you during the deployment, even if it was something people wouldn't immediately recognize as a loss?

SPEAKER_01 22:12

It's it's hard to really pinpoint one thing or a certain thing because each deployment was different. He he did three deployments where our kids were at different stages in ages. Um but for me personally, there was a couple of things. Um the second deployment I noticed that that he would use a deflective tactic, which was leading up to the time where he was getting ready to uh deploy, meaning everything was done militarily, um, settling everything at home with me and the kids. There was time in between from where he where we were at and the time that he was leaving. So if it was a week or two before he was actually leaving, he would um be nitpicking certain things and it would cause a little bit of a friction. Uh-huh. But I but I always I the first time this happened, I thought that he was not happy with what was going on at home. But when he was gone, I realized that this deflective matter was him trying to deal with him saying goodbye to us. The kids were older, me, you know, and and him having to say goodbye. Is it forever? Or is it, you know, whenever they're coming back, which sometimes we didn't have an end day to that. Right. So that tension would always get me because it would make me feel even more anxious. And then I would get angry because because he made me feel that way. Right. And and then I would get fearsome because I could see his fear, and I was like, oh no, you know. Yeah. Um and then when he when he was gone, it was the evenings not having your spouse at home.

SPEAKER_00 24:31

Right.

SPEAKER_01 24:33

Those silent minutes and hours before your body goes, okay, you need to get some sleep because you have work the next day. You have kids you have to take care of. So it was that that quiet time that you had by yourself with your intrusive thoughts. That was the hardest time because I had nobody to talk to. There was nobody that could ease my fears and anxiety that was creeping into my head. Because again, it's quiet. So you have all these thoughts rolling through your through your mind going, Well, what if this happens? Oh, you know, we can deal with that. But what if this happens? I have to pack up the house, I have to move back to the states, I'll be a single parent, I'd be a widow. How am I gonna make ends meet? I mean, it was just one of those rolling emotional spirals that kept coming that sometimes you just didn't know how to deal with. And so when you finally did go to sleep and you woke up the next day, you're like, well, you know, those five hours, whoo, let me let me get up and get the kids ready for school and let me get to work. And and you started all over again. So it was days and waves like that.

SPEAKER_05 25:54

Yeah, that's tough. That is really tough. What's interesting that you brought up was this idea of feeling a loss before your spouse is even gone. Like losing that connection because he's getting anxious and like preparing to go, and you're getting anxious from him being anxious. And so it's that relationship gets a little wonky even before the deployment because you both know something's gonna happen. You just don't know when. I don't think I could handle that, honestly. Like I am so I I hate that feeling. So it would drive me crazy to to be in that constant state.

SPEAKER_04 26:35

Yeah. And yes, and just to speak, like on from my experience of when my dad went to Desert Storm, that was pretty tough because we didn't have communication either. We were in Germany at the time and our base was shut down. Like we we weren't allowed to leave. And there was one time that my I have family over from Germany. I'm at my sister's German, my mom's German, but uh one time my mom was very ill and my aunt was trying to come get me out of because there was nobody at home. So I nobody was there to watch me. My aunt and my uncle could not come into the base. And I had to have like a military police officer come up to me and say, Hey, just to let you know, your mom's not doing good. And there's some people here that we don't know if we could let them go with if you can go with them or not. And it's my aunt and my uncle. And I'm I'm running up to the front gate there, and I saw my aunt and uncle, and I don't know if the police should have let me leave with them or not. They didn't even ask me. But back in the good old days. Back in the good old days, you know. And they let me leave with them. But yeah, my it was, it was very, it was a different, it was different. It but it was normal for me, if that makes any sense. Like, yeah, that was my normal. Like, if you talk to anybody that's outside in the civilian world and you tell them like the experiences that I've had, they're like, What? That is crazy. Like you went to three different schools in one year. And I'm like, Yeah, I did. That's typical. Wow. And when you're in the military, yeah. But you know, I also do have my son is he went to the Afghan war. So this is a different experience. And I but when I saw my son, he went to the Afghan war. That was a different, that was, that was different experience than I had with my than my dad going to Desert Storm. That was like another level that I am so grateful that I had Claudia because she, I was able to talk with her. And, you know, she she didn't really, like she said earlier, that she didn't really have somebody that she can talk to. So I am very grateful that I had my sister to lean on and to have her help me with that process because I was scared as hell. I was deathly scared that my kid, who knows what's gonna happen. You know, he just joined the military and then guess what? Here we go, Afghan war, here we go. You know, and it was so scary that I'm so glad that I had my sister there that went through a similar experience was there for me.

SPEAKER_05 29:04

And I yeah, I'm just I felt so blessed to have her. Well, as a parent, I would imagine, you know, it is a different level because you're looking at it going, how the hell do I protect my kid? Yeah. Yeah you know, and then I gotta trust the military to protect him. Right.

SPEAKER_04 29:19

Yeah, exactly. And he's just a kid. Yeah, yeah. He's like 18. Yeah. You know, he's still a baby.

SPEAKER_05 29:24

Like I don't, I I I think of it like, I don't know you, I don't trust you yet. Right.

SPEAKER_04 29:29

Right. Exactly. Yeah, a hundred percent. It it was it was tough. As a parent, it was tough. But I'm I'm thankful that you know, my sister was there to to help with a lot of different things.

SPEAKER_05 29:43

So, what does that help look like? I guess is the question. Like, what did it look like for you? Did you have to talk her off the ledge? Like, I know she gets pretty feisty when she's upset. At least I've heard.

SPEAKER_01 29:55

She can't be pretty feisty, yes. Um yeah. There's there's quite a few times where Barbara was on that edge of teetering. And like she said, it's different when it's a parent going to deployment because you as a child, you're like, well, he's an adult, he can take care of himself.

SPEAKER_05 30:15

Right.

SPEAKER_01 30:16

You know, and he was he was trained for this. He knows what he's doing, and he knows that he his soldiers know what they're doing. When you're a parent, you're like, I don't know his superiors, right? I don't know his sergeant. Yep. Is he gonna look out for my kid? He has, you know, 12 other kids to look after. Right. Um it's almost not it's not quite like that, but it's when you first send them off to school, yeah, and you're like, oh my gosh, you know, I'm not there to protect them. I the anxiety is very similar. Yeah. The anxiety was real. Yeah. Than going to kindergarten. But the stress uh and the anxiety and the fear is always looming in the back of your mind. And I know Barbara, uh I'm sure Jason did too. Yeah. Uh it's just such a different feeling to have your child go into a war than even your spouse, you know, or your your parent. It it it's something animalistic, is the only way I can put it.

SPEAKER_05 31:32

I can see that with you.

SPEAKER_04 31:33

Yeah. Yeah. But there was one thing that was different than what you experienced, Claudia, or even what uh like dad and mom experienced. Like they were able to like write letters, right? You guys were you guys got to say, have the little cell, the little cell phone talk of over, I'm here, over, I'm good, I'm over. You know, that's you guys had that part. And with dad, it was more like we had letters that we could write to him. But with with Jordan, though, I was pretty blessed that we were able to have like video conversations. Like we were able to do that, and we weren't able to do that in the in the past. Right. So when I did get to see him, I was so excited. I'm like, let me see your whole body. I gotta make sure that everything is okay. I there's nothing like you have all 10 ting fingers and all 10 toes, like, I gotta see this, you know. And he's like showing, he's like, this is really awkward. I'm like, I don't care. You know, and your mother like, show me what you got going on here. Let me see what's going on. You know, so those those were some of the things that um that I was really blessed to have. And I I don't know if they can they're able to continue to do that kind of electronics type of thing. But yeah, that was one thing that it's so different now. It is, right? It's totally different now. And yeah, it was a lot easier for me when I got to see him, but it still, I still had anxiety. And then one time that we were talking, our computer went totally black. And that's because their no Claudio was serious. It was like they they got bombed or something like that. And that scared the living shit out of me. I was like, holy crap! So then I called Claudia, of course. You know, it's it's whatever time of the day it was. I didn't care, Claudia. She she was like, oh, excuse me, it's 4 a.m. Exactly. Yeah, Claudia's used to that with me. But I'd call her, I'm like, oh my God, what's going on? Is you know, like I'm freaking out here. And I'm like I said before, I'm I'm totally thankful to have Claudia because Claudia did talk me off the edge. And I can't imagine, like, if there was somebody else out in the civilian world that like their son is going off to war, right? Like what we're going through right now with those people don't have like my sister. And and that's that's hard for them, and I feel bad for them. And I'm I am thankful to have my sister to be there for me. And I'm hoping that there are others out there that can be like my sister, you know. Yeah. I do have a question for both of you.

SPEAKER_05 33:56

Yeah. So we're talking about, you know, you have um Barbara, you have Claudia to be able to kind of rely on when it comes to your son. Um, Claudia, you were living in the installation or the base at the time, so there were other spouses going through similar things. My question becomes what about the outside world, the non-military world? Like, did they get what you were going through? Did you feel like you needed something more from the rest of society?

SPEAKER_01 34:27

Um, I never thought I needed anything from the outside world when it came to support me. Um, you know, when big things happen and the military gets activated, you know, all these stores, all these grocery stores, fast food restaurants, um, they throw everything at the families and the soldiers. And they're like, oh, you know, eat here 10% off and la-di da di da. I never went in anywhere and said, I am a family member, I'm here for my 10% discount. I never, none of us ever did that. Right. That, but I think that's the only way the civilian side would know how to support is giving you something at a discount or for free, or and it really isn't. I know there was a timeline that started, I want to say at least 25 years ago, uh, with um the Iraq war nine after 9-11, and it was civilians coming up to anyone in a uniform going, Thank you for your service. Thank you for your service. Oh, thank you for your service. And it became, to be honest with you, just quite a few soldiers and family members that laugh at that because they feel like it's a hollow meaning. There is there is no meaning behind it. Um you know, like my husband always goes, Oh, thank you, and and he moves on and he just shakes his head, like, you know, for real, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 36:19

Right.

SPEAKER_01 36:19

Um the biggest thing that the civilian side could ever do is just to say, you know, I'm sorry you're having to go through this, but we do have your back. Yeah. You know, we are so grateful that your spouse decided to sign on that dotted line and join the military. It's it's for my freedom, it's for my family's freedom. You know, that's the that's really the biggest thing that someone can say and show besides saying, oh, thank you for your service. I mean, it just becomes so blase, you know, everybody says it just because you're in uniform, but when you're out of uniform, how do they even know you served or are serving? You know. So sometimes just to just to take time to speak to someone is is support enough. But having the installation, like I s like I mentioned earlier, some of the spouses, when we were stationed overseas in Germany, and that's where he did his two other deployments, the Germans had no idea what we were going through. Nor did it nor did most of them have any empathy. Their thinking was, well, he knew what he signed up for, he's an American soldier. They're trained to kill anyway, so that's just second nature to them. And then the family, well, pfft, you know who you married. And it's like, wow. And and be honest with you, I have been told that to my face before.

SPEAKER_00 38:02

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 38:04

Yeah. You know, I I mean, I would never say, Oh, I'm married to a soldier. Ah, look at me. No, I am very proud of what he did, but I never used it to gain anything or make myself be better than anyone else. But there have been in the States where they go, Well, you knew what they were getting into, and then when you married him, you knew what his job was. So you knew he was gonna die sooner or later.

SPEAKER_05 38:31

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 38:32

It's like, okay, thank you.

SPEAKER_05 38:35

That is terrible. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:37

Yeah. Yeah. So so most crap. Can you imagine what I got was from other spouses in wherever we were at?

SPEAKER_04 38:47

Can you imagine in today's world, like you go tell a cop, like a cop's wife that, or a firefighter's wife that? Right. Can you imagine? That would be such an upheaval. Yeah. Like, oh my gosh, you would be on the news and you would be that Karen, you know?

SPEAKER_05 39:03

There's a new name now. It's Jessica, I guess.

SPEAKER_04 39:05

Was it Jessica? Okay, you'd be that Jessica.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

Yeah. And and then since we were stationed in Germany, um when um 911, well, we got there right after 911 happened, uh, a year later, everything was locked down more so than it ever was before. Yeah. And it made it even more difficult for some of the spouses to want to leave the installation because they were afraid of any retribution that they might have.

SPEAKER_04 39:38

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 39:39

Uh you know, growing up in the 80s with our stepdad, I don't think Barbara remembers this because she was, you know, just happy go lucky playing with the kids next door. Um Ignorance is bliss. That's right. Living the life with the German candy.

SPEAKER_04 39:56

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 39:58

But before we would get into our cars, this was in the 80s, we had to check underneath to make sure there were no bombs.

SPEAKER_04 40:04

Wow, I do not remember that. Holy man.

SPEAKER_01 40:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:06

Thank God I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 40:07

So before we went anywhere, Barbara, you you don't remember.

SPEAKER_05 40:09

I had to go check that before. Thank you for your service. Did they did they give you a mirror or anything to use?

unknown 40:18

Nope.

SPEAKER_01 40:19

I had to I had to kneel down and hit me understand. I have no idea what it would even look like, but who made you do that, mom or dad? Both.

SPEAKER_03 40:32

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 40:35

You know, dad dad would do it because when he was home, he would check it. But uh he was the one that told me, hey, if you guys go anywhere, you better be checking underneath the car of my toe. Okay. And I said, uh, he goes, we have to check for bombs. I was like, excuse me. Wow. Yeah. So yeah. So before you know, mom would take us anywhere, I had to get down on my floors and check under the undercarriage.

SPEAKER_04 40:59

You had no clue what the underneath of a car was, anyways. It looks good, mom.

SPEAKER_01 41:04

Yeah. I was like, okay. So um, but that has always been ingrained in me. Yeah. You're, you know, you watching your surroundings, watching people. We still do this to this day. I ingrained that in our kids, unfortunately. God gosh, they're probably messed up for the rest of their lives. But but I mean, it was just something I wanted them to be able to know where an exit is. Yeah. We would always I would always tell them, okay, we will meet up. Remember that fountain that was outside? We will meet up there if we get separated, run out the door. And I guess they have taken that to heart uh to always watch their surroundings. Um but yeah, being an on an installation in Germany, there were spouses that wouldn't even leave it, even during peacetime. So uh during the deployments, most spouses they went back to the States.

SPEAKER_00 42:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:04

They they packed up a suitcase and went back to the States, and that was it. They waited for their spouse to come back. But um it it it it is different for a civilian to understand what it's like to watch your spouse leave for war and have that fear of is this a forever goodbye? So and and and I know all of our first responders, ENTs, because you know they get attacked as well. The firefighters, the police officers, I mean, anyone in that kind of high visibility job, um, even doctors and nurses nowadays. I mean it's it's true. It definitely is a stressful kind of place to be. And if you've never been in that realm, it's hard to empathize or even relate to it. So yeah.

SPEAKER_05 43:09

I do have another question, and actually this is for both of you. Um, because you've both had somebody deployed and then come back. Um, so when deployment ends, I'm wondering what what is that transition like? Because you know, most people think that the moment, you know, if they come back, everything just goes back to normal. So I'm kind of curious, like, what was it like, you know, when you're when your father came back from you know Desert Storm? Yep. Um, and what was it like when your husband comes back from deployment?

SPEAKER_04 43:41

So with mine, um there was my mom had made, gosh, I don't even know what it's called. Remember what she did? She made like that congregation not congregation, but she made that group. Family support group. Yep. Thank you. So my mom made a family support group. And this was like the first one. There was none that was. Happening. There was nothing in the yeah, I know, right? It's kind of crazy. Sorry, you can't see my face, but it was like, what? Yeah. So my mom and one of another lady created this group and it was like a family support group. So it helped the women out. So they when my dad was coming home, they said, Hey, we're getting together. All of the families got together and we made like all of our welcome home signs. Because my mom said during the Vietnam War, nobody did that. Right. So my mom said, We are going to do that. That's one thing we're going to do. And I said, Okay. So we did all that. We had our welcome home sign. So when our dad came off the plane, you know, he saw the welcome home sign. For me, it was just like, okay, my dad's back. But it wasn't. It wasn't my dad. That was not my dad. My dad is still not the same as when he when he left. That was my dad.

unknown 44:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:55

Yeah. So and it's it's tough because I witnessed a lot of things as my my dad has PTSD, like severe PTSD. Yeah. And I've witnessed a lot of things with him that has helped has helped me to get into the therapy field.

SPEAKER_05 45:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 45:12

Because I I've witnessed it and I experienced those those traumatic events that happened. And watching my dad go through those, that PTSD, that really, I was like, I have to help. And my my whole goal was I'm going to help soldiers. I can't help soldiers. I get too invested in that. And I'm just like, my own emotions get just too wrapped up. And I I know that that's not the the field I need to be in. Right. But that's that's my experience with my dad coming home. He was not the same. And he was, I don't believe he's still the same. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What about Jordan? Oh gosh. Yeah. So when Jordan came back, he was a total different person too.

SPEAKER_05 45:50

Like that's your son.

SPEAKER_04 45:51

That's my son. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 45:52

I just want to make sure we clarify that.

SPEAKER_04 45:53

Oh, yeah. I should probably clarify that. Sorry. So yeah, when he came back, he came back a total different kid. Like not even kid.

SPEAKER_05 46:01

I was gonna say, was he a kid anymore?

SPEAKER_04 46:03

No, he wasn't. He wasn't a kid, but he had P he has PTSD also.

SPEAKER_05 46:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 46:07

So he experienced um a firefight. Yeah. So it was him and a couple other people that were had to lay down in a field for a couple of hours. And I did not know any of this. He did not display disclose any of this stuff to me when he was there because he knows that I would have he knows I would have freaked out. I probably wouldn't have gone to Afghanistan myself and was like, Mom would have been in the plane. I'm like, let's go, bitches. You know, I would have been that person. Like, I'll take you all out one by one. But I'm I'm glad that he didn't do that because I probably would have done it. But um when he came home, he did I don't know why he did this, but he did save like the pair of pants that has a hole that he got shot at. Oh, and it was less than like two inches away from his leg. And then he had like one of his other buddies got hurt. Yeah. Um so that was pretty traumatic for him. He struggled with that for a long time. He still is struggling with that. Um, so it it's pretty hard.

SPEAKER_05 47:04

It's how many years has it been since his deployment?

SPEAKER_04 47:06

Oh my gosh, Claudia, do you remember how long it's been? It was oh good gosh. Over 10 years, 12 years, 12, 13, 13, 15. Wow. That sounds about right. Yeah. Something like that. Over 10 years ago, I'll just say.

SPEAKER_01 47:21

Yeah, 20. When did you go? 2013?

SPEAKER_04 47:23

I think so.

SPEAKER_01 47:26

Yeah, so about 12 years.

SPEAKER_04 47:27

Yeah. No more than 15, yeah. Yeah. So that was and it's still hard. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 47:32

You know, it's interesting because you know, I'm I'm listening to you to talk, and I, you know, through the phenotology lens, I'm going layered loss, layered loss, layered loss. Like it's like one, this is like phylodough in an apocalypse. Like we've got so many different losses going on. And yet when I listen to this, I'm going, holy crap, he has just lost that sense of peace within himself. Anybody with PTSD has.

SPEAKER_04 47:58

Right. You know, we didn't even look at it through the lens of like the therapy world. Like it's not just, you know, just through my lens, but Claudia. Claudia, that was her nephew.

SPEAKER_05 48:08

Right.

SPEAKER_04 48:09

You know, we never even explored that. Like, how did that affect Claudia when she had to deal with her baby sister? Because I am the baby, and then she had to deal with her nephew going into war too. That's like another layer, too.

SPEAKER_01 48:21

Yeah. It is. It's almost like the bloom and onion. Yeah. Everybody loves the bloom and onion, especially when it's a fried and it's so open. But when it's before you fry it and it's still closed, all the layers are together. But once you start peeling back, and it's like, oh my goodness, there is more and more and more. And some people can't compartmentalize it. I I'm one of those. I I can't put nothing away. It all has to, it's almost like a Rolodex. It's it's always there, you know. Um but yeah, it's there are a lot of layers when it comes to deployment that these military uh members deal with and can't put away. Some deal with it differently than others, and that's why you have the the suicides, the alcoholism, the drug addiction, the I want to say bipolar, but you know, I think that manifests itself later on that it even if they had it before they joined the military, because they check for everything now, but still there there are all these neurological issues that come out after such a traumatic deployment. And the beginning, I want to say 2001 to 2006, I think were the were one of the worst ones that um that the military had experienced.

SPEAKER_00 50:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:04

So the the losses then were very, very heavy.

SPEAKER_00 50:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:08

So but yeah, it's um yeah, it's it's just layers upon layers. And I know Dave has always had PTSD because you know, before Dave is your husband, correct? Dave is my husband. Okay. But when uh when hubby did um before it was cool deployments, he was already going on deployments. And um there were quite a few times where well I I still get woken up every now and then, um where it still affects his dreams and his dreams. So and uh so I I I I sleep with a gap between us because I have gotten hit before. And oh, you know, I am getting older, I have to keep as much of my beauty as I can.

SPEAKER_05 51:02

But um we all do.

SPEAKER_01 51:06

It it it can be very physical. It can be very, very physical. So um, yeah, it it affects there is layers to everything. Yeah. And I think it and if you have a damaged childhood, it's just another layer on top of that. Yeah. So you know, you just pile it on and it all comes out after such a uh a deployment.

SPEAKER_05 51:32

So I'm gonna bring the question back to you now again, Claudia, because you know, when I think about not having had any military family, you know, experience. The last time my family was in the military, by the way, was the Civil War. Okay.

unknown 51:44

Wow.

SPEAKER_05 51:46

So um, and they got out of that one alive, surprisingly. So, needless to say, um, you know, when I think about uh deployed soldiers coming back, I'm thinking back to like World War II and how you know women had to take over and do a lot of the jobs men were doing, things like that. And then the men are coming back, and now they're having to regress back into their domesticated lives. Obviously, that's probably very different than what happened for you, but what was it like having them come back?

SPEAKER_01 52:17

You hit it spot on. Um whenever they leave, you take on the masculine side of the house as well. And you and your feminine side, I just learned this last year that I had a very prominent uh masculine side. Uh and that never let my feminine side come out more. And that happens because of deployments. And during deployments, you know, there's such a thing called Murphy's Law. What's going to happen is going to happen, especially more so when the guys are gone. So, for instance, uh when on one of his deployments, our daughter was hit in the face with a baseball bat because we were playing a game and uh in our backyard, and the person that was swinging it swung all the way around and hit my daughter on her in her face. Oh no. Well, of course, you know, everybody's panicking. We're like, okay, watch this one, watch that one. I'm going to the ER. And it's just things happen when the guys are gone, more so than when they're home. So you're having to take on that extra responsibility. Responsibility, there you go. I didn't want to say stress because it's really not. You have stress anyway. Right. But it is the responsibility of being the dad and mom. Not only that, but then you're the head of the house. You're having to make big decisions sometimes without them because you can't get a hold of them. You can't call them up and go, hey, I know you're in the middle of a fight, but um is it okay if I if I buy brand new tires, you know. Right. I need to spend $500. Um, so little things like that. And and so when they come back, we call it the honeymoon phase. Everything is honky dory for the first week, too. And then everything gets revealed, you know, even with your spouse, they're coming back to oh, this is the new normal. Um, I don't have to be on edge, or I am on edge because now the the euphoria of being back with my family is gone. Um, oh my gosh, I didn't realize my wife charged $10,000 on a study card.

SPEAKER_02 54:41

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01 54:42

Right, yeah. You know, um, what do you mean you left to go to the States and you let the German house lease lapse and didn't pay any of the bills? I mean, there's just so much crashing in on some of these spouses. When you don't have a good foundation as it is in your marriage, it will crumble in any deployment when they come back. So the two weeks, that's why we call it honeymoon, because everything's like, woo, you know, champagne and roses and caviar, and then it's like crash. And in our case, we did this early on in our marriage before we had more kids. And that was when he comes home from work, he gets 10 minutes to dump whatever happened at work, whatever, you know, was what was going on. He takes off his uniform, does his you know, boots, and and I'll have like a iced tea there for him, and a little bit of a snack before dinner, and he just dumps, dumps, dumps, dumps. And I I try to occupy the older kids for like 10 minutes, say, hey, be in your room for a little bit, daddy needs to get undressed, you know, and then I'll call you. Once he did that, he was able to be him as a dad and as a spouse again. So going on to deployments, when he came home from deployments, you know, of course, the first thing they want to do, I I'm sure uh Barbara can attest to that, especially with Jordan and and our dad, is they want to get out of those clothes that have smelled the same for however long they were gone. Right. They want to smell fresh, they want to smell like bounce and tide and washed hair.

SPEAKER_04 56:32

All that comfort smells that they had.

SPEAKER_01 56:34

Yeah. Yes. It's just ingrained in their nostrils. Uh the sand is everywhere. Yeah. I mean, we still have uh bags of the desert storm, I mean the Iraqi uh sand still uncovered. So when he came home, you know, he he hugged, or he's like, Okay, let me get out of these dirty clothes. I don't want to get you guys sick. And he would take a shower, I would sit in there with him and we would chat, and then he would get dressed and have uh uh something to drink and eat, and then you know, the kids would bombard him. But he needed that extra time to unload. And it wasn't telling me what happened in uh during the deployment, but he would tell me, you know, oh my gosh, you're not gonna believe this container, that container, blah blah blah. And it was just, you know, getting back into the habit of us, him and I as a couple, and then him and I and the family. So that has always helped us. And then me having to give up certain responsibilities, roles was harder for me than it was for him to fall right back into being the head of the house and um having to take over that spot again. And I'll be like, I already took care of that. He goes, Oh, okay. Oh, I already did that. Oh, oh, okay. And you know, the saying would be like, Oh, can I be the man of the house, Claudia? Oh, I'm so sorry, I forgot. You know, so there were there were roller coaster rides every now and then. Yeah, you know, but nothing major than some others, which I have witnessed over and over, as my as our mom used to say, it's the same crap, yeah, but with the different people. Yep. So what what my mom saw in the beginning of her marriage to my dad were young girls were newly married at age 18, 19. Their spouse took away their ID card and they couldn't link.

SPEAKER_00 58:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:39

I experienced that with you know, 19-year-old spouses with a two-year-old coming to Germany, have nothing. So it it's it's the same crap, different generations. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 58:51

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 58:51

Yeah. And I'm sure it's still going on.

SPEAKER_05 58:53

Oh, probably, yeah. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 58:55

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 58:57

Well, I I I have one last question for you, if that's okay. For for both of you, honestly, I guess you could say. And that would be for those who are listening, if you have a spouse, a parent, or even a um child that is being deployed into the military currently, what advice would you give them?

SPEAKER_01 59:17

I would say find the support system that fits you. There is support out there for the parents. There is who have children that are deploying or deployed. There is support out there for the spouses and for the children now. Um, they have so many different things available that wasn't available to my sister when my dad, when our dad deployed.

SPEAKER_00 59:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:45

Even to our kids when the the first deployment happened. So there's so many different uh centers and activities that they can be involved in. Uh if you live near installation, seek those out. You know, help your family get back onto a better place, a but a better emotional place, even. And it's out there. The support is out there. Surround yourself with people that love you, that know you, and support you and your family and your children that are might be deployed. Um the fear never goes away, but you learn to deal with it in different ways. Yeah. And um, you know, just try to make the best out of each and every day, and don't let the gloom and doom get you down because you can only control what you can control.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:44

What about you, Barbara? As a parent, what would you say?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:48

I would definitely say reach out to support groups, right? That's that's the first one that I would reach out to. I would also reach out to a therapist, a counselor. Make sure that you have a good support system. Natural supports are really important. Um I think that's my number one thing that helped me when I was going through all those things. Um I think that if I would have got a therapist during that time, I think I would have utilized that therapist a little bit more. But I I don't know if there's a lot of therapists out there that can relate to how that is. Yeah. You know, you can you could always you can find them. They're they're out there. Yeah. And of course, you know, utilizing the the military, they have a lot of things online right now for the military uh support group. So you just go to even the Red Cross, you know, reaching out to the Red Cross, they they can help you out there also.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:40

Um Military One Source is another great one. I believe they include the parents now too. Military One Source. If they Google that, it'll come up.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:50

Okay. Perfect. Thank you for that. Um, but yeah, those those are the number one things that I would encourage individuals to go do.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:58

Excellent. Claudia, is there anything else? I know your time is valuable today. So is there anything else you wanted to include before we say goodbye to you?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:07

Yeah, just know you're not alone going through this. There's many, many others that are going through the same thing or similar things that you are going through. You're not alone. And like my sister said, if I would have had a little bit more trust in myself, I think I would have sought counseling as well. Because I know I was a mean dragon lady to my kids because uh the fear that I had sometimes I was a little short with them. And I and if you ask them, I'm sure I beat them somewhere down the line too.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:39

So I mean I mean, that was the norm though. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:44

But I'm but I mean, having a counselor or therapist would definitely have helped me more to get my own thoughts out of my own head instead of thinking I was alone. Yeah. So yeah, get the support. There's nothing wrong with it. Uh I I'm all about support.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:00

So well, we thank you for joining us today. We do really appreciate the time that you've given us and especially all the insight. This has been eye-opening for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:09

Nice. Thank you, thank you.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:11

So, Barbara, now that it's just you and I again. Um, and I have no experience, like I said, in having somebody in the military. I kind of wanted to come circle back for our listeners and talk about what are really these losses that we see, not just in deployment, but as we heard, also just being in a military family.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:34

Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of losses, aren't there? Yeah, we just discussed earlier. Yeah, there's losses that you lose friends. You know, that's that was one of the things that I experienced when I was younger. I lost a lot of friends because we didn't have Facebook, we didn't have technology that we can get back and forth, and it costs like an arm and a leg to even call them.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:52

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:53

So there's that loss for me. Um, the loss I also experienced when I had my father go to Iraq and Kuwait, you know, that that was a pretty big loss. It was scary. It was very scary for me because I didn't know if my dad was gonna be there or not. You know, is he gonna die? Is he not gonna die? And then watching my mom and my brother, you know, that that was pretty tough too. You know, all of us are changing and very quickly. And it wasn't like a it wasn't like a gradual thing. It was like, bam, there it is.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:24

What was that change that you saw? Can you name it?

SPEAKER_04 1:04:27

I could. I could change like the change of me. Like I felt like I grew up like faster. Like I had to grow up faster because my dad wasn't there. So my brother was there, but my brother's not my dad, you know?

SPEAKER_05 1:04:41

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:41

So I saw that. Then I also saw like my dad or my brother maturing faster, also.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:48

Because he's having to take on more of that role.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:50

Yeah, he had to take on more of the role of like, okay, I'm I'm the man of the house, so to speak. And let's just frame this a second.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:59

How old were you two?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:00

Oh my gosh. I was 12, maybe 11. 11, 11 or 12.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:06

Okay. How old was your brother then?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:08

He is five years older than me. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:10

So he's in his teens. Yeah. Now he's the man of the house. Yeah. You're I'm a baby. You're a baby. You're not even in your tweens yet. No. And yet you're growing up quickly. And so we're talking loss, you know, non-death losses. There's a loss of childhood in this.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:27

Yes. Oh, yes. Oh, I totally agree with that. Like I did when we were living in Germany at the time, when we had soldiers that were patrolling around, that's like another level, like Claudia said, the onion ring trauma, you know, like that drama was there when you didn't know if there was somebody gonna try to come into the base. And you there is, you know, they're talking about this in schools, like, hey, make sure that your head's on a swivel, you know, because you don't know what's because we live in a base, and outside of that base, we're in the civilian world and who's protecting us. Nobody is. We we have the soldiers that are inside the base where we lived, but there's nobody on the outside. So if we had to go and where we lived in Nuremberg, um there was only like um a YMCA, a softball field. Um I think that was it. I can't really remember like what was all there, but I I know that there was no grocery stores. We had to go off post. I mean that's like out in the civilian world. So we did have to do that, but there was there was you still had to watch what you were doing.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:32

It's like a loss of innocence.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:34

Because you're no longer looking, you know, you think about being a kid, right? And how you kind of treat everybody. And I you and I grew up at the same time. And you know, granted, we were at the time of uh in the US at least where there was kids on milk cartons.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:51

Yes, yes, there was.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:52

So you are you are kind of wondering, like, is somebody gonna pull me out of the the department store and and kidnap me? Yeah. I mean, that's that was our loss of innocence, but yours is a lot higher because you're not just looking at, you know, if I'm in one place or another where it's common for somebody to get kidnapped, you're constantly looking. Yes, yes, like is somebody gonna hurt me? Is somebody gonna take me? Is something gonna happen to my family?

SPEAKER_04 1:07:18

Yes, yep.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:19

That's awful.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:20

Yeah, yeah. We had to like memorize our social security number because just in case if something happens to us, yeah, yeah. It was it, I I still remember my memorize my social security number. It's like a lot, like you have to remember your dad's social security number too. Wow. Yeah, so there was there was a lot. I don't remember his anymore, just to let you know.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:38

Well, and then you know, you talked about the fact that you get through that loss of like, am I gonna lose my dad? Yeah, and then he comes back. And then he comes back, and then he's not the same dad.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:51

He's not the same guy anymore. It's it was he was he he was snappier. He wouldn't give it was different, you know, it was just a different type of dad. Like, if I would have dropped something, he would have been like, What no, you know, like just snapped.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:05

Because he was on such high alert.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:08

So I one time when my dad was over there, he told me a story. He was sleeping in his Humvee, and he woke up and he opened up his door and it went tung. And he was like, What the heck is that? So he looked out and it was a ammunition. Oh my god. Yeah, that was not detonated. Yep, and it landed right by his Humvee. He didn't know, he was sleeping, and that's where it was. And he opened up his door and and yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:38

He could have blown himself up right there.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:40

It was somebody that they somebody from Iraq or one of the enemies, let's just put it that way.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:48

One of their missiles literally hit next to his Humvee. Humvee and not on it.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:54

Yeah, yeah. Oh my god. I know. And and then you know, he tells us all this stuff when he comes back. Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:00

You know, because they can't no, they're not supposed to tell during right, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:04

Can't tell at all. So it was yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:06

Wow. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:08

So that was another level of like trauma for me. Like, oh my gosh, my dad could have died, you know. So that that's when I was 13. You know, I was 13 years old during that time.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:17

Did he get deployed at all after that point?

SPEAKER_04 1:09:19

Mm-mm. No, we came back to Kentucky then.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:22

Could you imagine had he had to get deployed again?

SPEAKER_04 1:09:24

Yeah, that would have been bad.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:26

Knowing what you knew that happened while he was deployed the last time.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:29

Yeah. Can you imagine the multiple like there there were people multiple, multiple times that they had to go? Yeah. Oh my god. I know.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:37

You know, and so when we think about grief and we think about loss, you know, we always think about death. But hopefully today, this discussion has just added a whole nother layer onto non-death losses and how we're grieving with our military personnel. Um, you know, it's not necessarily just their death that brings grief, it's the grief of losing a life that is peaceful um for a lot of people, especially not even just once they get deployed, but even after they might come back from deployment. And that piece has kind of been shattered and things have changed. Yeah. And you're adjusting to that change and adjusting to sometimes a whole new person who has come back to you.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:22

Yeah. And we moved. So after my dad was out of the military, he wasn't even out of the military then. I want to say maybe six years, maybe six years, maybe seven years, but we moved back to Kentucky, and my parents were like, Yep, he's he's done. He's done with the military, he's retiring. So then we moved up to Wisconsin. And um, yeah, that was a change because my dad was still down in Kentucky, and me and my mom lived in Wisconsin.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:48

So we were so was he kind of like working his way out retirement, so to speak. Right. It's not like I'm retiring and tomorrow I'm done.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:56

Right, exactly. It wasn't like that. Yeah. So then he was like going on the weekends, he'd come over. So it was just it was like a deployment. So I just was like, oh, this is normal. This is what happens in the military. You know, you just you're here one week and then you're not here, and you're, you know, it was just so normal for me. But then when he was actually here and he was retired, you've seen more levels of that PTSD that I now looking at it at a therapeutic lens, it's like, whoa, that was like PTSD screaming. And I just I felt like I wish I could have helped him, but I I didn't have any skills. And as a daughter at 18, 19 years old, and you can't help your father, yeah. It feels hard, you know, it really does. It was hard for me.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:42

Yeah. You know, it's interesting, Claudia brought up the the saying that we hear so many people use, which is thank you for your service. And it's a hollow saying to a lot of military personnel. Yeah, they understand why people are doing it, but at the same time, you're not understanding what that service really is about. So I was kind of thinking about this this whole time as we're talking, and I'm like, maybe we need to switch what we say. Yeah. And instead be like, you have given so many, you've had so many sacrifices that I don't even fully all understand. But I can tell you that I am so grateful that you have done that. Yeah. Because that seems a little bit more genuine than thank you for your service.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:23

Right, exactly. Thank you for your sacrifice because yeah, that's the sacrifice that they go through, like not just them, you know, their families. Their families, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:33

It is layered, it is difficult, um, and yet we still have people who sign up. And so that is incredible that we do.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:42

Well, now that's gonna be mandatory. I know that hurts my heart.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:47

I think it hurts everybody's heart, honestly, at this point. Uh, but that's why we're doing this episode because there are gonna be more individuals and families who are experiencing non-death loss, and hopefully it stays non-death loss. Correct. Um, as hard as that is to have a non-death loss, to have a death loss on top of it is just even worse. So well, we thank you for joining us today on this discussion about military deployment and the non-death losses that happen. As we close today, we want to leave you with this reminder. Contrary to what has often been taught, grief does not happen in stages, it ebbs and flows like a tide. When you are grieving, you may find yourself capable of handling daily tasks and re-entering life, only to be suddenly halted by waves of pain that take your breath away. If this is where you are, nothing's wrong with you. Your grief is not a failure to move on, it is a reflection of love, meaning, and the losses that often go unseen. Thank you for joining us today on the Invisible Loss Podcast.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:58

Where the losses that are often unseen are finally given a voice. May you offer yourself the same gentleness you so freely give to others, especially where your loss goes unseen.