LGBTQ+ Seen, Heard, Loved

Every person's story matters, yet many LGBTQ+ experiences of loss go unseen.  In this episode, Jenn and Barbara welcome guests Desi and Gina to share their personal journeys of identity, acceptance, relationships, belonging, and resilience.  Together they discuss the invisible losses that can accompany living authentically - from family rejection and societal expectations to discovering community and self-acceptance.  It's an honest, hopeful conversation about what it means to be seen, heard, loved and empowered to live authentically.  

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:11

Welcome to the Invisible Loss Podcast, where your hosts Jen and Barbara. If you've ever found yourself grieving something that doesn't seem to count in the eyes of the world, if you've ever wondered why a loss that isn't about death can still hurt so deeply, you're in the right place. We're really glad you're here.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

This podcast is for the grief that doesn't always come with funerals, casseroles, or clear permission to mourn. The kind of grief that's quiet, confusing, and even often carried alone.

SPEAKER_04 0:44

Invisible loss exists because not all grief looks the same, and not all losses are recognized, named, or supported. Yet they still shape us.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Our discussion is educational and reflective. It is not a substitute for therapy. Please honor your own well-being while listening.

SPEAKER_04 1:08

Welcome back to the Invisible Loss Podcast, where we talk about the losses that are real and life-changing, but are not always seen, understood, or openly acknowledged by others. I'm Jen.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

And I am Barbara. Today's episode is an important one because we are talking about the LGBTQ plus experiences through the lenses of the invisible loss, identity, belonging, grief, healing, and authenticity.

SPEAKER_04 1:33

Many LGBTQ plus individuals experience losses that are rarely talked about openly. Sometimes those losses involve relationships, family dynamics, community, safety, expectations, identity, or even the loss of feeling fully accepted for who they are. These experiences can deeply impact a person's sense of self and belonging, yet they're often minimized or overlooked.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Today we are honored to be joined by two guests, Desi and Gina. Thank you so much for being here and for being willing to share your story and perspective with us.

SPEAKER_04 2:04

To start off, would each of you be willing to tell listeners a little bit about yourself? Gina, what can you tell us about you?

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Well, let me see. I'm 48 years old. I'm from Minneapolis, Minnesota originally, but I live in the UP of Michigan at this point in time. Um I'm a professional dog mom. I'm married and I have a family of dogs that I love very much. And I don't know. That's about it for now.

SPEAKER_04 2:36

You have three dogs, is it?

SPEAKER_02 2:38

I do. What kind of dogs do you have? I have one uh pit bull that I got from the uh Detroit Animal Control about 10 years ago. I have a blackmouth cur who is a maniac, and I have a Springer Spaniel pit bull mix who was like a backyard situation that got yeah. My neighbor kind of hucked her over the fence at me and was like, You want a puppy? And I was like, sure.

SPEAKER_04 3:05

Oh wow. So I want people to hock puppies over fences at me, right? Damn. Heads up. What about you, Desi?

SPEAKER_00 3:19

Yeah, so uh I am 30. I am married. I live in a very small town. Um and I have two dogs, three cats, how we ended up with three. I I don't really want to get into that. Um and I would say like I'm just one of those people that love to be outdoors and just do what makes me happy.

SPEAKER_01 3:42

When did you first realize that your identity might be different from what others expected? And what was that experience like for you, Desi?

SPEAKER_00 3:51

Yeah. So I would say when I was in middle school, I started to realize that.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

So what was that experience like for you being in middle school?

SPEAKER_00 4:01

I feel like that's such a loaded question because there was so much behind it. Because you want to look at everyone else, right? That in the in these moments they're starting to kind of figure out who they are. And everyone's liking boys, right? All the females are liking boys, and then you have yourself who's liking females, and you realize that, and then you're like, oh my gosh, I'm in a small town, I'm different. What do I do now?

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

So I would say it was scary.

SPEAKER_01 4:29

Yeah, I bet it was. What about you, Gina?

SPEAKER_02 4:32

I was weird straight out of the womb, honestly.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 4:38

Um I I honestly I never felt like I even belonged on this planet ever since I was a little kid, like three years old, I can remember. Um, I mean, I had a lot of, and I know this kind of uh overlaps with your other with your other podcasts, but I had a ton of uh like paranormal uh sort of um imaginary friends and all sorts of like kind of fairy sort of encounters when I was really, really little, and would tell my mom about this stuff, and she would just be like, No, you're dreaming, no, you're imagining, no, no, you're wrong, you're wrong. And so yeah, I just I always had this sense of otherness of being on the outside. And man, I remember being in like third grade and hiding in the bathroom in school because I was terrified of my of the teachers, of the other kids. I just felt so different. So I think when I actually realized that I wasn't, you know, a heteronormal sort of person, was I want to say maybe like eight, nine, ten. And um we we would go to the the the movie store, Mr. Boobies in in Minnesota, you know, you'd go rent the movies. Yep. And I would find these, I would find these like, I don't know, these like kind of lesbian themed movies when I was really young, like less than 12. I would rent the movies and then try to keep them at home, like just keep them, not rewind them, not anything, just keep them. So I you know, swirl them away and like go to the library and steal all the books about you know, uh, so you think you're gay or something like that. And eventually my mom caught on. And uh, fortunately, I have two uh gay uncles, and so one of them kind of got with me and helped me out a bit, but man, I did not even come out consciously to my mom until I was 28.

SPEAKER_04 6:34

Wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:35

It was we had we just had a really repressed family, very dynamics, very religious, I will say.

SPEAKER_04 6:43

Okay. So Desi, am I okay to ask? Did you come out at a certain point to your parents?

SPEAKER_00 6:49

Yeah, I would say when I was 14, and when I came out, my mom's like, oh honey, I know. My dad, on the other hand, was a completely opposite experience. He was not accepting of it at all. But as time has gone, he is accepting.

SPEAKER_04 7:02

You know, when we kind of look at this in terms of thanatology, a lot of what can lead to grief is like that worry, that fear of rejection, things like that. And so, like for you, Gina, it sounded like that might have actually been something that could have been very real was the fear of rejection.

SPEAKER_02 7:19

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:20

It's been a big theme throughout my life. And with my kind of spiritual awakening in the past few years, I realized that that's definitely just a major life lesson that I'm currently, you know, still going through.

SPEAKER_04 7:34

A big focus of this podcast is the idea of invisible loss. So when you hear that phrase, what does it mean to you personally?

SPEAKER_00 7:42

So when I think of the invisible loss around it, I would think of family, community, and supports that once were a support until they found out and then it was gone. Friends.

SPEAKER_04 7:57

Did you end up losing a lot of friends when you came out?

SPEAKER_00 8:00

I did. I lost nearly all my friends. Oh wow. And some of that is out of fear of uh being associated with someone that's different.

SPEAKER_01 8:10

Uh especially in a small town I bet.

SPEAKER_00 8:12

Yes, yes, and a very religious town too.

SPEAKER_04 8:17

So wow. Gina, are you comfortable sharing with us any of the your thoughts on what you come to mind with invisible laws?

SPEAKER_02 8:25

Um regarding the subject, I mean it's almost like grieving something you never had.

SPEAKER_04 8:34

That's a great way.

SPEAKER_02 8:35

Like grieving what could have been, I guess. Um I mean, I'm kind of going through that. My mom passed away in April, and kind of a lot of the same feelings coming up uh with that because we we had such a tumultuous relationship. And so I did go through, I mean, I'm still going through it, this this kind of stage of like grieving what could have been like a really great relationship with my mom. But unfortunately, that's not what happened. But in the long run, I understand it was for my growth, and she had her own process, and so but yeah, it does it translates over into like maybe it was a maybe it's a life lesson for me to figure out who I am without having that sense of community first, you know, in the early stages of life. I think that's kind of part of the one of the pieces of the puzzle. But yeah, and I mean just this feeling of like really wanting to fit in, but not wanting to fit in at all. And so when I was a teenager, I was looking really weird because I felt really weird on the inside. Yep. But then I would get really upset when people would look at me or be like, why why do you have a big septum ring? Or why why is your hair green? And I'd be like, shut up, you know, because I didn't want that. I don't know. I think I just felt a lot of inner conflict, um, yeah, with everything.

SPEAKER_04 9:58

Did you grow up in Minneapolis or did you I did?

SPEAKER_02 10:01

Okay, I had a really great group of friends. We're, you know, we're all artists and musicians, and my high school was super supportive, honestly. It was really um, it was really great. I had this really good uh guidance counselor who helped me set up, and this was gosh, back in '92, I was gonna say, helped me set up a uh support group for gay kids, or you know, LGBTQ, just the whole umbrella, mainly so that I could get out of class because you know, I didn't want to be in class and school stopped and everything. So I'm so my guidance counselor was like, here's a great way for you to still earn some credits and stay in school. And so we did that, and I had, I don't know, it must have been like 15 people at some point. It was really cool. And so we were able to kind of form our own community, and I'm still friends with some of these people. It's really that's awesome. Yeah, it's really incredible. So, like I had this, I somehow I felt like I was living a double life for uh a large part of my growing up because I had this religious uh family that we never really talked about. It was it was so uh just don't talk about it. Just you can do whatever you want, just don't tell me about it.

SPEAKER_04 11:22

So I would, you know, I was like sounds like mine.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

Were they Catholic by chance? Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:28

Okay, okay, yes, okay, gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 11:31

So so yeah, I just I felt like I had a double life, but I had like my friends who I considered my real family, and then I had my family, and this is an interesting dynamic that we have.

SPEAKER_04 11:41

Yeah, that I don't even think we realized we were gonna get, which is you growing up in a much larger city and you growing up in a small town, Desi. I was just gonna say that and how that dynamic plays in. So, Desi, listening to Gina, what are your thoughts when you hear her story?

SPEAKER_00 11:58

So I guess one of the things that really stood out was just having that support even in school. Um, because I remember, you know, in school being told I couldn't even change in the locker room. Wow. Because I liked females. So I had to get changed in a separate bathroom.

SPEAKER_04 12:14

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 12:15

Yeah, and that was by the staff at the school.

SPEAKER_04 12:17

Oh my God.

unknown 12:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:20

That's horrible. So to have that support in school, I think is huge.

SPEAKER_02 12:24

Well, and how interesting is it that when I was in high school, this was like 91, 92, 93. You weren't even born then. Right. That there would be this like linear progression in society and culture, but no, it's like the opposite.

SPEAKER_04 12:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:43

So fear does some pretty crazy things. Yeah. And it drives people in directions we don't like to see. Absolutely. What's fascinating though, really, is that like with Eugene, you're talking about having different types of family. And that is very true. Anytime we start being outliers, we're outside the norm. We often have to find a sense of family because what we have as family doesn't always meet our needs. Did you find your sense of family outside the traditional?

SPEAKER_00 13:20

Yeah. So I would say that I'm currently now finding it.

SPEAKER_04 13:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

Yeah. Good. Outside of like my mom's support and or like my sisters, my siblings. Yeah. Um, I would say the support outside of that I'm just now finding.

SPEAKER_04 13:35

Okay. Yeah. But you also had support within your family too.

SPEAKER_00 13:39

I did.

SPEAKER_04 13:40

And that was a big and that's another big difference.

SPEAKER_01 13:42

Yeah. There's a lot of differences, right? So even like when you're you were brought into the world.

SPEAKER_04 13:50

When you were birthed into this world.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

When you were birthed into this world in a small town, you know, that's that's it's different compared to how Minnesota is, right? Minnesota, Minneapolis, that's like big blue bubble. Right. It is very big blue. And where you are, it's very red. Very red. Very red. And that has to be difficult for for you when you were growing up. We're not having that that support. And and I know where you grew up. And there's still some stigma around that in that area. And it's still really hard. And I work with clients in that area. And it's hard for our clients to still feel un, they still feel unseen. They don't feel supported. They don't feel affirmed by any anybody that's in the school system or in that community.

SPEAKER_04 14:41

My question then becomes do you feel safe in that community? When you have these people who aren't understanding, does it feel safe for you, does it?

SPEAKER_00 14:51

No.

SPEAKER_04 14:52

Okay. That that would be that like hurts me because that is the one thing that everybody should have is that feeling of, especially because it's your hometown. You should have the ability to feel safe in your own hometown.

SPEAKER_01 15:08

Yeah. That's very important for the your sense of self. You know, having that if you go home, you don't have that safety if you're at home. You don't know if who knows what's going to happen? A rock's going to get thrown in your window, you know, hate words are going to be smeared on your car. I mean, that's that's a big thing.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

That has happened.

SPEAKER_04 15:26

I was just gonna ask you, have you had anything happen to you?

SPEAKER_00 15:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:31

Are you would you be willing to share that with us? What it what happened?

SPEAKER_00 15:34

Yeah. So I uh we would have my wife and I, we would put up our pride flag, that would get torn down. We've had people egg our houses, say faggots, interest, knowing that our windows are open and we can hear them.

SPEAKER_04 15:47

Oh my God. Gina, you moved up to Upper Michigan. How was that with your wife?

unknown 15:56

Man.

SPEAKER_02 15:57

Well, I'll give a little bit of background. So um we met in 2012 in Seattle, where both of us were living at the time. And I had been, at that point, I had been on the Pacific Northwest for I don't know, at least 10 years. And she had been there about the same amount of time. So we met when we were both 35, and we both lived together for I don't remember maybe like eight years. And then we decided to eventually move uh to Detroit, and Detroit's a great town. It's a very complex, uh complicated city, but it's a great town. We lived there for about five years, and then something kind of nudged us both into wanting to move more into nature, and so we went up to Marquette to have a vacation, and we just both knew we were like, we have to live here, we just have to. And we ended up getting this house that wasn't even on the market for like $20,000 less than they were asking for. Oh my god. Wow, damn. It's like everything was so synchronistic, and it's like we were supposed to be up there, and it was so easy, and we just we get up there, and um it was definitely culture shock. It's very like libertarian, kind of don't turn on me, a lot of fries, and like pull yourself up by your bootstraps and everybody. I live in a mining town, yep, and it's a lot of like hyper masculine, toxic uh sort of stuff. But then at the same time, there's like we moved in next door to a gay couple who has like the pride flag out down the street. There's like somebody who has the trans flag out, and it's like I don't know, it was su it's such a different dynamic. I expected it to be more just like everyone hates us. Yeah, it's not like that. Um I ended up, you know, because I'm I made the conscious decision to create community in my neighborhood because I need friends, I'm a human being, I like to socialize, and there are people here that seem like they could be cool. So I started reaching out, like, you know, uh, I have a bunch of raspberry bushes in my backyard. I would pick raspberries or apples an apple tree and bring them to my neighbors, and I would go to the people who had like the don't try on me flags or the Trump flags or whatever, and I would offer them here this is from my backyard. And they're, you know, mainly older, very older people uh who don't have a lot of money and don't you know what I mean? They're just they're just living their lives. Right. They and they would sit on their porch with me and like eat raspberries and talk about ourselves, and I would be like, Yeah, me and my wife, we live right down here, and they they nod and they're like, oh, okay, all right. And they're super nice to my face. And so I don't know if they shut their door and talk crap about me afterwards, but like I was really surprised at how just nice and seemingly accepting people are. I don't know, it's a different experience.

SPEAKER_04 19:06

It's okay that it's a different experience. I'm glad you're having that experience, honestly.

SPEAKER_02 19:10

Yeah, I mean, I feel like I don't know, just putting myself out there and and kind of leading by example, maybe that helps. Maybe it helps to put a face to things. I don't know, but it's been it's been really surprisingly cool.

SPEAKER_04 19:26

So Desi, did you stay in your hometown?

SPEAKER_00 19:30

I did. I left for about a year and I came back.

SPEAKER_04 19:33

What made you decide to come back?

SPEAKER_00 19:35

Um, my grandmother's passing. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 19:38

Where did you meet your wife?

SPEAKER_00 19:40

High school.

SPEAKER_04 19:41

Oh my god, that is awesome.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:45

Did you start dating in high school or did you just know each other and then date later?

SPEAKER_00 19:49

Yeah, no, we did start dating in high school.

SPEAKER_01 19:52

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

Yeah. That is too cute.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

Do you have that sense of loneliness when you guys did come out? I see you both just shaking your heads like yes. Do you want to share anything about that?

SPEAKER_00 20:03

It was hard. Um, I would say the loneliness came from feeling like you lost everybody that you thought was part of your life in the matter of days. And just the the immense, I'm gonna say pain. Feeling the pain.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

As a therapist, you know, speaking from the therapist lens, that that can really like shape your identity and even like I don't know how to say this.

SPEAKER_04 20:27

It's grief.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

It is, it is grief, and it can, it can, it can shape your identity, though, you know, through the depression and everything, and where you're gonna be more. I know you, Desi, right? So when you walk into a room, you are observing, you are watching everything. And I feel like that has something to do, and you can tell me if I'm wrong or not, but I feel like that has something to do with part of coming out. Am I right or no?

SPEAKER_00 20:54

Some of it does, yeah, because you just have to watch your surroundings, you have to know who you're around. Are they gonna say something? And essentially, even now, when my wife and I we leave the house, like we're very careful if we're giving each other a kiss outside.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

Right. And that sucks because I can go outside and give my husband a kiss anytime. Like I can go mac up on him whenever I want. Nobody but do you? No. But that's the thing. I mean, I and that's socially acceptable. Like if I was in a bar with my husband and I was kissing him, that would be okay. Now, if Gina or Desi goes to a bar with their wife and it's a let's say a small little town bar, how is that going to be? How is that gonna look? You know, that's gonna look totally different. And that's where we it's just not it's called disenfranchised. Yes, disenfranchised for sure.

SPEAKER_04 21:47

So you have what's called, you know, any time that you have something that's not supported publicly, um, it's a disenfranchised grief, um, is what we call it in Panatology, because you're not. Allowed to be fully you without people questioning it.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

Right.

SPEAKER_04 22:04

And and allowing it to be valid. Right. You know, the idea of being able to go outside and give your wife a kiss without somebody looking at it or um being offended, heaven forbid, by it. Um whereas they could just validate it as love and let it be.

SPEAKER_01 22:21

Right. And even when you're suppressing those emotions, like when you guys were younger and you're middle school, elementary school age, when you're suppressing those emotions, that can turn into bigger things, right? That's there's anxiety, there's depression. I see you both shaking your heads and you're like, uh-huh. And there's a lot of other mental health things that can that can happen. And did you guys experience any of those? Uh yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

I mean, um, well, I think I mean there's a there's a bigger picture to to to that. It's not just like the sexual orientation, like my family got divorced and uh my parents got divorced really young. There was a lot of family uh early life trauma going on. So I feel like there were like different levels and layers to like a blooming onion. But uh, I mean I've been doing chatter work for a few years, and I I yeah, I went to therapy when I was a kid for a while, and um I've been working on myself for a while. So I realized that I had kind of the anxious attachment stuff going on, and you know, hypervigilance and kind of just always feeling uh just so much protection, you know what I mean? Like the feeling like you have to keep yourself protected because, like you said, you you you just grow up with this inherent sense that you cannot be yourself, yeah. It's just not acceptable. So, I mean, it's just a different, it's a different experience.

SPEAKER_04 23:50

I have a question, and either of you can answer this one. Do you feel yourself ever masking up? Like prepare, like okay, I'm going out into this scenario, and I I know I'm gonna have to be a certain version of myself. I can't be too what me, so to speak. Does that happen?

SPEAKER_00 24:07

Almost daily. Yeah. Really? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:10

Tell me what that's like. I mean, I know what it's like on my end because I do it too, but like, what is it like for you? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

It's rough, and I would say it's almost like sometimes you lose the sense of who you actually are until you're in a situation where you feel or an environment, I should say, where you feel at peace and then you come back to realize this is actually who you are.

SPEAKER_01 24:31

That has to be exhausting to mask all day long.

SPEAKER_00 24:34

It is. Because even in the profession that we do, I have to mask it.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

Yes, you do. I and I know that you do. And that's it, it hurts my heart that you have to mask for individuals that are not accepting and are bigots. I mean, let's just call it what it is, honestly. It's hurtful for me when I I work with Desi. I'm very close with Desi. Like it hurts my heart when I see certain individuals say something in a in a non-direct way. Because then as I have to remember, I have to keep my therapist hat on when I'm working with these people. And not your bitch slapping hat. Exactly. And not my throat punching hat. Because I have to step back and then I have to like go at it in a different angle where I have to educate them. And then I still have to remember that I can't hurt you. Right. Yeah. And it's it's difficult. So it's it's a masking for me too. So I don't I don't hurt someone.

SPEAKER_04 25:32

Barbara has to mask rage and violence.

SPEAKER_00 25:36

Right. Oftentimes it just comes from the lack of knowledge I feel. Yeah. It's just what they were told they needed to be or how to feel.

SPEAKER_04 25:44

So what does masking look like then for you? Like how do you mask?

SPEAKER_00 25:48

That's challenging. That's very challenging to ask that. Um, I would say it's mainly putting on that face of I can conquer anything. And just trying to act like nothing bothers bothers me.

SPEAKER_04 26:05

Gina, have you ever felt the need to mask?

SPEAKER_02 26:07

Oh, my whole life. Um, up until pretty recently, where now I'm kind of in that process of consciously unmasking and being my squishy, vulnerable self. I mean, fortunately, I don't live in an area where I have um, I don't know, like physical threats or anything like that. And I and I do feel safe in my community. But for me, it's part of the bigger picture of uh figuring out who I am and what authenticity is, what sovereignty is, what uh self-respect is, what empowerment is. And who the F am I? You know, I feel like everybody goes through this process. Or they don't, I don't know. But um for me, it's I do feel like I would I would walk around in a little walnut shell all the time, even the tattoos and the weird hair piercings and listening to the aggressive music, and just kind of like put like creating this personality that I realized some years back was completely not me at all. Just kind of like stripping the layers away, and yeah, I mean it's kind of like deconditioning yourself. Yeah, that's a good getting out there and just reminding yourself, hey, be it's safe to be yourself. Yeah, it really is.

SPEAKER_00 27:32

Yeah. I can relate on that with uh sense of style, and that's part of the masking. Like, do I look feminine enough? Or do I look do I look like I would be queer when I'm walking down the street? Are they gonna think she likes men? Are they gonna think, oh, she likes women?

SPEAKER_02 27:48

I remember when I was in high school, and this must have been 94, I want to say, and I got I had one ear that had two earrings in it, and one ear that only had one, and I just gotten my nose pierced, and one of the kids, this was after one of my old friends kind of outed me to the rest of the school, and it was just embarrassment. But one of the most popular girls came up to me and she was like, What does that mean when you have your nose pierced like that? Like, and I was like, I don't know what it means, but like after that, I was just very super conscious because I was a super tomboy, and it kind of just made me even more self-conscious about the way I looked. It's like, well, I don't want to be, I don't want to be a bulldike, but I don't, I don't feel like I'm a femme either. And I, you know, it it makes you just up in your head and overthink everything.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

It really does. And also the phrase of dress more like a lady or those those kinds of things. It really makes you sit back and think, what does the person I'm with approve of?

SPEAKER_02 28:51

Or like, what does your mom approve of? What does your family approve of? It's never it's never about like what makes you feel comfortable. It's like you're always bending over backwards for the other person, and you just turn into this people-pleasing, just like don't rock the boat, be as quiet and small as possible, and that way that is no way to live.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

It's not, and like for years I felt to myself like in my internal, I always felt more of like in that male role. So I wanted to cut my hair, and I was always told I was not allowed to. Oh, so then when I was finally of age to do it, I chopped it all off.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

I went bigger, go bigger, go home, right?

SPEAKER_00 29:33

I did, and I felt so much, it's like almost like my hair was holding that grief. And I chopped it off, and I felt like I could breathe.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

Wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:45

Being able to be yourself helps you to breathe. Yeah, really.

SPEAKER_04 29:49

Exactly. Yeah, I love this conversation, by the way. I'm just like sitting back listening to y'all talk and I love it because it's honest. And that's that's the point of this is to recognize the fact of how much we give up when we're trying to fit into what everybody thinks we should fit into. And to understand that there's grief in doing that because we lose ourselves. We don't even know who we are. Um, and it it's frustrating because nobody recognizes it as what it really is, which is grief. It's grief that I don't have the relationships I wanted to have because I'm not who they wanted me to be. And I'm not the traditional um heterosexual person that society wants me to be. But I can still be a girl if I want to be a girl. I can still be really feminine if I want to be feminine, or I can be masculine if I want to be masculine. And to be perfectly honest, in my marriage to my first husband, I was more masculine than he was. Like I was the one who did a lot of the traditional masculine rules. So, what does it even mean then to be heterosexual?

SPEAKER_01 30:59

Who the fuck cares? Right, right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:02

Drives me nuts. Sorry. That's my that's my little soapbox there as a heterosexual.

SPEAKER_01 31:09

Sorry. So I do have a question for you guys. Do you feel that there are losses within the LGBTQ experience that people outside the community often like don't recognize or fully understand?

SPEAKER_02 31:22

Um, well, let me see. So the first thing that comes to mind is with different elections and different uh political parties that come in, it's like, uh is our marriage being threatened? Like, are they gonna try to take away our marriage license? Um, also, you know, my wife is trans and we're dealing with like there's no there's no flights or travel in our future because she could potentially have her passport taken away, you know, stuff like this is really it really impacts uh both of us. Um just this like background kind of uh low-grade stress all the time of like what's gonna happen next. Is there gonna be something that's gonna happen next? Like, is our marriage gonna be valid? Um you know, stuff like this. It's really stressful.

SPEAKER_04 32:19

Yeah. Um I mean, that's really stressful.

SPEAKER_02 32:22

Yeah, that's pretty stressful. That can be.

SPEAKER_04 32:24

I'm sitting here like, holy shit, nobody understands that concept.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

Right.

SPEAKER_04 32:30

That isn't, you know, within the community. It's you know, these people who feel like they need to make decisions that threaten the fact that you want to be married. Come on.

SPEAKER_01 32:40

Yeah, that has to be like a very anxiety-producing, anticipatory anxiety, a lot of that too, watching just watching the news. Just I bet.

SPEAKER_02 32:50

Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you I guess I'm gonna sound corny, but like I guess if you let it, you know what I mean? Like I know that I I've been with my partner since 2012, and I know that even if something crazy happens and all of a sudden our marriage is invalidated, uh in the eyes of the law, we'll still be together. I won't have my health insurance, but you know, uh in the end we'll be okay, but it's just like it just feels really shitty.

SPEAKER_01 33:20

Yeah, it it does.

SPEAKER_02 33:22

That sucks. And like, who cares what bathroom people use? Like done. It's none of your business.

SPEAKER_00 33:28

Why do you care?

SPEAKER_04 33:29

Dessie, what about you?

SPEAKER_00 33:30

Uh the one I think I did think of was the marriage and not knowing if you're gonna be able to stay married to your partner or not. And just that that gut, that gut feeling that you get, it's it sucks, if I'm being honest. Please. And then to wake up and then you see, oh yeah, and you're just like, oh man. Is this it? Are we not gonna be married anymore? But back to what China said, it's one of those things where you're with your partner, the marriage is it's a marriage, right? Yeah, but if anything's taken away, that's still your person, still your human.

SPEAKER_04 34:03

You shouldn't have to lose the validity though, of who you are and the fact that you want to be married to this person legally, and there's grief in that too. It's like, why can't society just leave me the fuck alone? Like, why do I have to worry about who I love and how I want to be in a relationship? And I shouldn't have to worry about my safety or the fact that I can't fucking travel because I'm trans and my sex on my passport might not match the sex that I'm displaying. And like, oh, it just it makes me pissed off to no end.

SPEAKER_01 34:44

I I turn to this side of the table and you guys are like so calm and you're just like, yeah, that's yep, this is well, that's because it's been this has been our experience the whole time. Right.

SPEAKER_02 34:55

So it's it I don't feel like it's like, oh, woe is me. I'm giving up all my favorite to the Republicans or you know, whatever. But it's you learn to adapt.

SPEAKER_04 35:05

There's a really good message though in that understanding is learning to adapt. Because, you know, we get fired up even when it doesn't directly relate to us in a you know, in a one-on-one personal way, but you've experienced this for so long, you've adapted. And part of me is like, but you shouldn't have to. Like, why are we making you adapt? Yeah. And I get adaptation is part of life. You know, we all adapt to certain things. But there's also I'm gonna bring it up again, the G word. What's the grief in adapting? You know, what are we giving up to adapt? And I don't know the answer to that right now.

SPEAKER_01 35:45

Yeah, me neither.

SPEAKER_04 35:46

You know, are we having to give up a little bit of ourselves? Are we having to give up a little bit of our sense of being human? I don't know. It just it's frustrating to me. I agree. Nobody should have to adapt to that level. Uh-uh. Here's my question. This is super personal. So if you do not want to answer this one, please by all means say so. Do either of you have children? Did either of you want to have children at any point?

SPEAKER_00 36:13

My wife and I did. Um we went through a process, but it did not work.

SPEAKER_04 36:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 36:19

So we actually became foster parents.

SPEAKER_04 36:22

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00 36:24

And we fostered for a while. We took a pause from fostering and we hosted a foreign exchange student. And she's become our daughter across the world.

SPEAKER_04 36:33

Gina, am I okay to ask you that question?

SPEAKER_02 36:35

I am the proud mother of three canines.

SPEAKER_04 36:39

Excellent.

SPEAKER_02 36:41

No, I never I just never really wanted kids. My wife definitely does not want kids. And I mean, I have a lot of kids. They're great. But yeah, just no, no, not for me, not in the cards. My brothers, too. We're just none of us have kids. I think part of it was growing up with a mentally unstable mom and dad and just having a lot of trauma and just kind of being like, nope, do not want to continue on with that family line. Don't want to pass the trauma train down.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

Yeah, what end that generational trauma. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So for family relationships, it could be incredibly layered and emotional. How has your identity impacted relationships with your family? It could be either positive or painful.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

Yeah, so you saying that just brings up um hide your tattoos, hide your piercings, and make sure no one knows that you are married to a female going to my grandparents' place. And the famous thing if she finds out, you'll put her in her grave.

SPEAKER_04 37:47

Wow. Did you also grow up Catholic?

SPEAKER_00 37:50

Lutheran.

SPEAKER_04 37:51

Oh, okay. Which synod?

SPEAKER_00 37:55

I got kicked out of church. I couldn't tell you. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_04 37:58

Gotcha. I know one's more strict than the other. So have you ever been able to bring your wife to anything family related?

SPEAKER_00 38:05

Family related, yes and no. Okay. Anything dealing with grandparents or of that age range? No. I did once, and the introduction was this is my roommate. We look back on it and we just kind of giggle. My my wife loves to tell the story because my grandma, uh raging German.

SPEAKER_03 38:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:27

No, but that's Barbara. Full-blooded. Um I panicked because my grandmother, she's never been to any of the places I've lived. So how would she have known how many bedrooms I have or anything like that? Said, Well, where does she sleep? That's what she asked you? Yes. Oh wow. And I said, on the couch. And grandma's like, okay. She just, yeah, she did. She just kind of rolled with it and didn't ask any more questions. I think deep down my grandmother knew. Yeah. I really do. But it was one of those things we just don't talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 39:04

That had to have felt hard, with especially with your grandma. You know, like that's my grandma. Did you have a close relationship with her?

SPEAKER_00 39:12

Yes. I did with all my grandparents. And I would say that maybe it's not as hard as you guys would expect. Really? Because it was just an expectation growing up. So it became very normal.

SPEAKER_01 39:23

Okay. What about you, Gina?

SPEAKER_02 39:25

Well, so I was a really, really rebellious teenager. I started doing uh drugs and going to raves and you know, dressing really weird and getting tattoos and stuff. And I moved out of the house when I was 17. And so I mean, we didn't really talk about whether, you know, who who I didn't even start dating until I was probably 20. I had my first girlfriend when I was 20. So I was just kind of this like angry loud kid who moved out, and then I didn't have contact with my mom or my dad for about 20 years. And my dad, I never got the chance to tell him. Um, we had a conversation on the phone, and then this was after like 20 some years, and we he got my number and just kind of we had this really bizarre conversation. He's telling me all this stuff about what he did in Vietnam and like getting like really uncomfortably personal. And I'm like, Dad, are you okay? What's going on? You know, he's like, Oh yeah, everything's good. He had pancreatic cancer, and he passed away like I want to say a month or two after that conversation. So I didn't have the chance to really talk to him about any of that. Although I totally know that he knew I was a lesbian. I used to stay the summers with him. He lived in uh Arkansas. And when I was about 12, uh, we were driving around one day in his type up truck, and we were talking about his neighbors, and he said something about them being two women, and then he said, Don't ever go over there.

SPEAKER_01 41:02

You're like, Oh.

SPEAKER_02 41:03

Okay, that was code for like, we're not gonna talk about this, but don't you ever go over there because you know, I don't want anything to happen. So that was about as close as I got with him. But with my mom, she like I said earlier, she passed away in uh April, and we had recently reconnected, and um, we went back to Minneapolis uh when she was in hospice and she got to meet my wife, and it was it was really cool. She was like, I'm just glad you're happy, and I and I think your wife is great, and so it was it was really touching, and so I think that the kind of bring brings me back to like grieving what could have been, you know. But I honestly I feel like things had to kind of play out the way that they did.

SPEAKER_04 41:52

So it takes time to see that though, because so you'll see this in my my my bathroom upstairs. I laugh because I put this up there because it makes me see it every day. Um, going through a really difficult time in my life. I found this quote and I have it in my bathroom, and it says, Life can only be understood backwards, but you have to live it forwards. And I feel like you're illustrating that perfectly for us, Gina. It's like I at the time you're grieving because you're like, I want to have this relationship. It would be nice to have this relationship. And sometimes you're not even grouped, you don't think you're grieving. I'm gonna phrase it that way, because you're there's anger or sadness mixed in, and you're going, why the fuck can't this person just understand who I am? But that's also a form of grief.

SPEAKER_01 42:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:40

Because you're like, why won't they give me the opportunity to have a relationship with them?

SPEAKER_01 42:45

Well, that's like the the grief or the anger iceberg, right? So everybody sees the anger and that's it. And underneath there, that's where you see like the loneliness, the distrust, you know, or you have the different emotions that are underneath that are underneath the water, so to speak, for the iceberg. It probably was pretty much like that for you guys when you guys were trying to talk with your families and they just weren't, as for you, Gina, where your family just kind of just didn't talk to them for 20 minutes. Right.

SPEAKER_02 43:17

Neither of us were ready for it. And like you said, I I really did kind of feel like a big iceberg, like just it's all frozen and just unrecognized, unlooked at. I'm fine, I can do this myself, and you know, like I'm an island and uh I can do it all by myself, hyper-vigilant, lone wolf sort of way of life. And it's um that shit does not work.

SPEAKER_01 43:44

No, no, I bet not. No, but you have all those different emotions, right? Uh, that are underneath that's that iceberg that you said, and all those different emotions are not being validated, which turn into things like.

SPEAKER_02 44:00

Like arthritis or tunnel or rage or alcoholism or mental illness or cancer, like all sorts of stuff from all this junk in the trunk. You know, I love that. I love that. Junk in the trunk. Seriously. And so, yeah, like I said, I was a cook for a very long time. I was a chef and I was the most angry chef in the world. And had to get carpal tunnel surgery and like uh elbow surgery and like chiropractic and just it migraines all the time. This is all from like anger and uh frustration and loneliness and all this stuff. And so I feel like what really kind of opened me up was in 2019 I quit my job and then for the last time. And my wife was like, girl, go to school or do something, don't go back to another cook job because you hate this. Yeah, like you hate it, you hate your miserable. And so I know we had you know a year and a half of sitting in the house and trying to, you know, figure it out, right?

SPEAKER_01 45:04

Yeah, yeah, you're trying to figure that out.

SPEAKER_02 45:06

Just figuring it out, so yeah. But honestly, that was a gift for me.

SPEAKER_04 45:10

Oh, I bet.

SPEAKER_02 45:11

Yeah, it was.

SPEAKER_04 45:12

Yeah, those COVID years were definitely a gift in in weird ways for everybody. We'll say it that way.

unknown 45:20

Right.

SPEAKER_01 45:20

And you did say something about like how when we suppress our emotions, right? There are cancers that can come up. We can get like the stomach issues, we can get headaches, migraines. So I'm glad that you were able to recognize that that can happen. And I and I want our listeners to hear that too. That when you do have when you're suppressing a lot of your emotions, that can end up into bigger things, more medical, more physical.

SPEAKER_04 45:46

I'm just looking at the book that I have sitting on the my bookshelf behind you, The Metaphysical Anatomy. And that's only volume one. Wow. And it talks about the fact of, you know, a lot of times when we're getting physical pain, it's related to emotional or things that have been repressed, things like that. You know, what are what do we actually need to deal with? Because sometimes cancer isn't just cancer.

SPEAKER_01 46:12

Right.

SPEAKER_04 46:13

Right. Or lock jaw isn't just a locked jaw. It's what got us to that point that the body had to respond this way. There's there's a lot more going on. And so when we're part of the reason we're looking at all these invisible losses is how can we open this up, start talking about this so we can get this infection of quiet grief out and start acknowledging that these this shit's real and that you know we shouldn't be going through it, and yet we are, and how do we deal? How do we move forward from there?

SPEAKER_02 46:46

So I just want to interject a little bit. I just realized while you were speaking that one thing that has totally changed my life on so many levels is this the paranormal sort of spiritual awakening, encrypted sort of stuff. And like I'm kind of laughing because I feel a little silly, but um, you were talking about hiding parts of yourself, and man, one of the big ones for me the past few years has been these interactions that I'm having and uh you know, opening up to different energies and like getting my clairs and all this stuff, and that's a whole different type of closet that I'm coming out of right now. It's like talking to my family consciously about this stuff and being like, I don't care if you think I'm weird. This is what's happening to me. Talking to my wife about it, even and just I was so scared. I thought she was gonna divorce me or like think I was totally nuts or something. And she's like, girl, you've always been crazy. It's fine. I'm just glad you found a hobby. So yeah, there's so many different parts of your life that you can kind of keep closeted, but yeah, it's yeah, it's funny. I've I've talked about it before, like feeling like I'm like in a different sort of closet with this stuff, especially living in a small town. Yes, I feel like it's harder to talk about Saswatch than it is about be being gay in my town.

unknown 48:16

It's weird.

SPEAKER_04 48:19

It it is funny though, because when we look at ourselves as a human species, we do. We have all these different proverbial closets that we hide in and parts of ourselves that we keep hidden from people because of the perceived societal um perception of who would we be once we allow that closet to open up?

SPEAKER_01 48:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:40

And so, you know, we're talking about one very, very important one today, but there's so many more. Like there, and there's so many more as part of us, like who are we in all these different compartments? And is that compartment um recognized by society as being okay? Acceptable, acceptable, yeah, right. And the paranormal is definitely one of them.

SPEAKER_03 49:03

True, very true.

SPEAKER_04 49:04

And I have joked a little bit saying, like, you know, I came out of the paranormal closet to my family as a medium and you know, all these things. But it is true. It's the idea of are you gonna be seen as crazy? Are people gonna want to interact with you? Who are gonna be your friends, who's who is no longer gonna be your friends? Um, and it isn't the same in terms of safety by any means, but there's always that level of where's the acceptance? And am I am I allowed to be who I want to be? Yeah, I agree with you 100% on that one. Desi, are you joining us in the paranormal closet at all?

SPEAKER_00 49:42

I would say a little yes. Um, a lot of the people, my mother, she she is also in the same realm, um, but is very closed off to it, or that's scary.

SPEAKER_03 49:54

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 49:54

So we're gonna back off of any of the these kinds of topics. So I myself have kind of until Barbara opened up to me, actually. Barbara. Oh, but even at that, Barbara, you were you were like, uh, I don't, I'm afraid I'm afraid of this judgment, right?

SPEAKER_01 50:11

Yes, I did. When I when I came and told you, like, hey, this is what I I go to paranormal coffee hour, and you know, and I and I do like the the ghost hunting. And I did think that, oh my gosh, what is Desi gonna think? What is Desi going to say? Is she gonna judge me for maybe oh my god? And then then my whole next thing was, is she gonna judge my my professionalism?

SPEAKER_04 50:37

Right.

SPEAKER_01 50:38

Because that's another added layer in in this, like even coming out now, talking in this out with this in the podcast, it's not right paranormal related. Exactly. Now coming out like this, it there's people that listen to this. Are they gonna judge me with my professionalism? Are they gonna judge me as, you know, like a personal? How how is everybody gonna judge me? And you know what? I don't care. Good. I don't care because this is who I am. And if you don't like who I am, you know what? There's a door. You can walk right up, and that's okay. Because I do have people that do care about me and that do accept me for who I am, and I will not have somebody say, I, you know, whatever. I don't know what they're gonna say to me, but I really don't care. You're crazy, Barbara. Oh, I am crazy, and I really don't care what they say because it doesn't matter. I accept me for who I am, but this took me a long time to get to where I'm at. I did not just this did not come overnight. This took a long time for me to be like pulling this onion for a while in the right.

unknown 51:44

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 51:46

It's it takes a long time to to be accepting of yourself. It does, it takes a while. So thank you guys for you know, like sharing your guys' stuff with everybody too. So if you guys can go back and speak to your younger self, what would you want them to hear?

SPEAKER_00 52:04

You're gonna live.

SPEAKER_01 52:05

Oh.

SPEAKER_04 52:06

Was there a point where you worried that you weren't?

SPEAKER_00 52:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 52:10

By your own hand or by others?

SPEAKER_00 52:12

My own. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 52:14

That's a very real thing. The number of people who have ended their own lives because of not feeling like they could be who they who they are. Yeah. How about yourself, Jayna?

SPEAKER_02 52:24

I don't know. There's a couple different ways I could answer that. I mean, I do I do a lot of inner work, and so I literally do speak to my inner child uh on a daily basis. And it's boy, it's like a lot of it is um, I love you. That's what it boils down to. That's really what it boils down to. It's all self-love for me. Because yeah, I felt God, I had just the lowest self-esteem when I was a kid. I hated myself. I hated myself, I hated the way I looked. Uh just I didn't eat. I didn't, there was nothing that matched up with how I felt on the inside, with how I looked on the outside. And I think I had a lot of body dysmorphia issues. And yeah, I mean, I I thought about it several times where it's just like, I don't want to fucking be here anymore. This sucks. Like this is heavy and hard, and I don't feel like I don't even know. Like, I can't see a future for myself at all. Like I remember being a little kid and just being like, I will never be married. I will probably, you know, like you read or you see the old, the old like tragic homosexual movies from like the 50s or 60s, and you're just like, that's me, that's what I'm gonna be. And no one will ever love me. I will not ever get married, I will lie alone in some shitty hotel room. It was like so completely unless I'm so weird what we tell ourselves. And I mean, so I guess if I literally had to talk to my teenage self, I would be like, you are gonna be so happy. You're gonna be happy and you're gonna be loved, and it's gonna work out.

SPEAKER_01 54:05

And there is research that suggests that the LGBTQ plus communities have a higher risk of suicidal thoughts, attempts, and self-harm compared to people who aren't in the LGBTQ plus communities.

SPEAKER_02 54:17

Makes sense.

SPEAKER_04 54:18

Yeah, it absolutely makes sense. Yeah. Where is the fear that cisgender individuals have with the LGBTQ? Like what is really the fear there? Is it they're gonna convert me? Is it it's just something that they don't understand? I know for some it's religious, but if you had to pick a spot, where would you say the fear tends to be held within the cisgender community?

SPEAKER_00 54:45

When I came out to my dad, he ended up throwing a chair at me and telling me I was going to hell. I was very confused by this because my godmother, who was his best friend, was a lesbian.

SPEAKER_01 54:56

Wow, my God.

SPEAKER_00 54:58

Yes. So I as a teenager, I was very confused, very hurt. I actually didn't have a great relationship with my dad until even after my marriage. I'd say about a couple years ago. And that came from that you're gonna go to hell. But that also came from what is everybody else gonna think because my child is a lesbian.

SPEAKER_01 55:19

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:21

Other people can be who they want, right? But my child, I want them to live up to this expectation of who I raised. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 55:29

Do you think it's because people were thinking like you did something wrong as a parent?

SPEAKER_00 55:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 55:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 55:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 55:36

Gina, is there anything you want to throw in that mix?

SPEAKER_02 55:38

God, there's so many layers to this. It's like there's fear of being uh rejected from the tribe. And you're like, that's a primal fear. That goes back to like Neanderthal days, you know. So this is like kind of hardwired into our psyches to conform and to be a part of the group because we had we there was a time where we had to work together in order to survive. And I think a lot of people who are kind of easily manipulated by you know, there's all there's there's cult, there's media that's telling you stuff, there's religion that's telling you stuff, there's your family, there's your community and your friends who all have these views, and so you have a tendency to just conform and just believe what you've always been told. And yeah, there is that aspect of like, well, I'm I must be a bad parent if I have this like weirdo kid, you know. Um, but yeah, I I think it's just people have so there's so much unlooked at pain and fear and uh rejection and just all this stuff that's inside of them. And if they see someone else who's different and who is happy and trying, you know, like having a great different existence, sometimes it just pisses them off. And they're like, this can't happen. No, you can't have these trans people using these bathrooms, or you can have same-sex marriage because I don't know why, but it just makes me very angry, and yeah, and it could just be that they're insecure too. They are insecure because they are in self-denial, yeah, and so they project it onto other people, and it's just yeah, I don't know. Like I said, there's just so much.

SPEAKER_01 57:23

That's like a blooming onion. Damn onions.

SPEAKER_03 57:27

Oh, another blooming onion.

SPEAKER_00 57:28

And I would say another experience that I've often um heard of and have been personally told more than I would like to admit, is that they've had a negative experience in the past with the same sex, and it has caused this fear around it that it can be so wrong and that you need to stay away because of it. Wow.

SPEAKER_04 57:53

Wow, yeah, that is a wow.

SPEAKER_00 57:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 57:55

I mean, where do I go from there? You said you had a question. I do, and this is the last question. Um, if someone is listening right now who's struggling with their identity, belonging, rejection, or just feeling unseen, what would you want them to know?

SPEAKER_02 58:10

Take your time, take your time with it. You know, you don't have to make any sudden moves, you don't have to just get comfortable with yourself first. Try to just do some inner inner introspection and reach out to some people in your community that you can feel safe with and just start small, you know, like talk to just talk to a friend, talk to your sibling, talk to your partner.

SPEAKER_00 58:33

The loneliness doesn't last forever.

SPEAKER_04 58:35

That's a big one. And having compassion for yourself. Yes. And understanding that if you are feeling, you know, struggling with identity, belonging, that it is temporary. And that you will find yourself, it just sometimes takes longer than any of us would like. And it's okay to be upset and to struggle with it and to grieve it, and to grieve what you thought would happen and what is happening, you know, because for some people coming out is you know, they're they're supported and everybody's like, Yep, I knew. And for others, it's not that way. Funny enough, sometimes you anticipate the worst and you get the best, and you're almost surprised by that. And sometimes you anticipate the best and you get the worst, and that's that's a surprise too. Life is gonna throw you a few curveballs in this process. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:34

And to everyone listening, we want to remind you that invisible losses are still real losses. Your experiences matter, your grief matters, and you deserve spaces where you can fully be seen, affirmed, and supported. I want to thank you for joining us for this conversation. We hope today's discussion offered insight, reflection, and validation for those navigating identity, grief, and healing. Remember that healing is not always linear and that seeking support is a sign of strength. Take care of yourselves and each other, and we look forward to having you with us again next time. Until then, be well.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:14

And I want to thank both Desi and Gina for sharing your stories and your honesty today. This is exactly what we need. So thank you. Thank you, guys. As we close today, we want to leave you with this reminder. Contrary to what has often been taught, grief does not happen in stages. It ebbs and flows like a tide. When you are grieving, you may find yourself capable of handling daily tasks and re-entering life, only to be suddenly halted by waves of pain that take your breath away. If this is where you are, nothing's wrong with you. Your grief is not a failure to move on, it is a reflection of love, meaning, and the losses that often go unseen. Thank you for joining us today on the Invisible Loss Podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:12

Where the losses that are often unseen are finally given a voice. May you offer yourself the same gentleness you so freely give to others, especially where your loss goes unseen.