Solutions in Schools: The Solis Study; An Interview with Rose McCabe, Fiona Robinson & Ben Starkey

In this episode, we interview an amazing group of individuals who have been facilitating and researching a whole-school approach to improving communication, behaviour, & school culture. The study is called SOLIS – Solutions in Schools. Professor Rose McCabe (City St. George's, University of London, UK) is a psychologist specialising in professional-patient communication in mental health care. She has expertise in developing and implementing solution focused interventions to improve wellbeing for young people. rose.mccabe@citystgeorges.ac.uk . Dr Fiona Robinson (City St. George's, University of London, UK) is a mental health Research Fellow specialising in research with children, young people and parents. Her current work focuses on brief solution focused interventions to promote wellbeing in school students and staff. fiona.robinson@citystgeorges.ac.uk.  Mr. Ben Starkey is Assistant Principal at a mixed comprehensive all through school lin London, UK, where he oversees behaviour.  We’re so thankful to this great team for joining us to share their story. 

Learn more about the SOLIS Study at: www.solutiontalkinschools.co.uk.

THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS:

Work Collaborative, a not-for-profit movement restoring confidence in schools worldwide. Based on the best-selling book Change Starts Here by Shane Leaning and Efraim Lerner, Work Collaborative helps schools lead change from within instead of relying on external solutions. The collaborative’s approach trusts that teachers, leaders, parents and students have the capability to solve their own challenges when given the right support. If you're interested in solution-focused approaches that build internal capacity, join this global movement of educators at workcollaborative.com.

Instructional Coaching Group is the global destination for coaching in education, including instructional coaching and leadership coaching. Led by Dr. Jim Knight, ICG’s work is grounded in more than 25 years of research focused on improving teaching and strengthening leadership, with the ultimate goal of increasing student success. Through research-based learning and consulting, the Instructional Coaching Group partners with schools and systems worldwide to build sustainable coaching practices and programs that support schools. www.instructionalcoaching.com 

The Canadian Centre for Brief Coaching (CCBC) - Founded by Dr. Haesun Moon, is a company based in Toronto, Ontario, Canada.  The CCBC provides competency-based workplace training programs as well as coaching and consulting services to organizations across sectors, both in Canada and across the globe. Since its inception as a research body and think tank comprised of graduate students, subject-matter experts and community partners, the CCBC has evolved to provide programs and services designed  with Solution Focused Coaching as the fundamental framework. Go to: www.pracademia.com 

 Family Based Solutions is a charitable organization based in the UK and founded by Ayse Adil and Joe Lettieri. They offer counselling services, support groups, solution focused training, online support and global leadership. They work collaboratively to end the cycle of abuse in families and to repair relationships.  Using Solution Focused Brief Therapy (SFBT), FBS gives families full control of their healing, alowing families to take small and manageable steps toward their bests hopes. Go to https://familybasedsolutions.org.uk/

Transcript

Sponsors, Welcome, And Guests

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Thanks to Family Based Solutions, a charitable organization that aims to end the cycle of abuse in families and to repair relationships using the solution-focused brief therapy method. They offer counseling services, support groups, solution-focused training, online support, and global leadership to those who need it most. Learn more at FamilyBasedSolutions.org. The CCBC provides workplace training programs, coaching, and consulting to organizations across various sectors worldwide, all with solution-focused coaching as the fundamental educational framework. For more, visit prakademia.com. That's pracademia.com.

SPEAKER_03 0:51

Hi everyone. Welcome to School Solutions Talk. This is Vicky Essebag, and hi Tara. Hi, Vicki. Good to see you. And uh we're very excited to have uh three special guests with us today. And I uh it's my pleasure and honor to introduce them to you. Uh, Professor Rose McCabe from City St. George's University of London is a psychologist specializing in professional patient communication in mental health care. She has expertise in developing and implementing solution-focused interventions to improve well-being for young people. Dr. Fiona Robinson, also from City St. George's University of London, is a mental health research fellow specializing in research with children, young people, and parents. Her current work focuses on brief solution-focused interventions to promote well-being in school students and staff. Mr. Ben Starkey is assistant principal with oversight of behavior in a mixed, comprehensive, all-through school in London, UK. Welcome all of you.

SPEAKER_05 2:02

Yes, welcome everybody. We've been really looking forward to this conversation and obviously been following the work that you've been doing in London. And we feel really privileged to have an opportunity to ask you lots of questions about it and to be able to kind of share it with our listeners. So initially, just to kind of get us started, I think it would be really useful just to hear a little bit about maybe from yourself, Ben, about the school, so we get a sense of where it is and the demographic and um and also from yourselves, Rosa and Fiona, about uh the university and you know, maybe about how the study started, how it came about. Um, and yeah, then we'll ask some more questions after that.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Sure, sounds good. So uh the school is based in East London near the Olympic Park, so we've got the Olympic legacy. Um we are an all-through school, so uh that means we have students from nursery all the way up to um sick form to year 13, um, of uh just over 2,000 students. Uh I'm I'm based in the secondary part. Um, so uh look after the the year seven to thirteen

School Context And Study Origins

SPEAKER_00 3:18

uh from uh part of my remit is is the behaviour side of things. We're just shy of 50% pupil premium, so um a high number of of students from uh uh what's defined as a disadvantaged background, um, which um brings its own funding but obviously brings its own own challenges as well.

SPEAKER_05 3:40

Okay, yeah, thank you. Thanks, thanks, Ben. And Rose and Fiona, um, can you tell us a little bit about how the project, how the study started?

SPEAKER_04 3:50

And about Yeah, so um Rose and I are based in the School of Health and Medical Sciences at City St. George's University. Um, so we got some funding from um a local charity called the BART Charity uh to run a research study. Um, so it's called the Solutions in School Study or SOLIS study for short. Um and the study is about it involves training school staff to use solution focused practice in their everyday conversations with students and staff colleagues and with parents. Um we're very fortunate that we're piloting it over one school year with the school that Ben works at. Um the study came about, it was sort of developed over quite a long period of um co-design work that we did with the school. So we spoke with a lot of students, with staff and with parents about what their priorities were. Initially, it started out as a kind of um how can we embed mental health support in the school? And then over this development work, we sort of decided together that a key priority really fundamentally was about improving communication at school. Um, staff and student communication, staff and parent communication. Um, and then potentially if we can improve communication and relationships, this then may have a knock-on effect on student behaviour, um, other factors like attendance, well-being, you know, concentration and motivation to attend school. Um, so really, you know, students and staff spoke to us about how sometimes they perceive that conversations focused on, you know, when things are going wrong, um, and how that could lead to sanctions and time out of the classroom. Um and they were really open to this idea of how students could work on being better and moving towards the future that they want. Um so you know, staff also spoke about how time that's spent on behaviour management, you know, is can distract them from enjoyment of work, you know, satisfaction, distract them from their teaching responsibilities. So they were quite open to the idea of sort of having different ways of conversations with students. Um, and we in our department at the university, so um Rose is uh leading on to um other trials where they're trialling um using solution-focused approaches for adults and young people um who are in crisis, so in mental health care settings. Um, and or maybe Rose want to speak about this, but I think in those studies, um, you know, practitioners have reported that it's a much more enjoyable way of working. So we were quite keen to think about how could we bring this to the school environment.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

Yeah, so um absolutely, and I think another point to add on that would be the when you see the kind of um young people presenting to or being referred to mental health services needing perhaps more input, I was really interested in the potential impact of introducing these approaches on the school level around supporting well-being and mental health, because certainly in the UK, anyway, the waiting list for mental health services, particularly child and adolescent mental health services, are very, very long. And young people, particularly when they're kind of developing and you know, a school year, many children will will make will wait months and months, even for just an initial triage. And then once they're triaged, they'll in mental health services, they'll wait for months and months more for any kind of

Early Intervention And Long Waiting Lists

SPEAKER_01 7:20

support or treatment or intervention. So I was very interested in the kind of possibility of just a supporting young people much earlier, plus their teachers, plus their families, and also then hopefully diverting um further kind of deterioration, maybe in mental health for some people. If you can intervene early, I think that's just such an exciting thing to do, and do that at the school level with teachers who are there every day with children, who see them, you know, and you're not relying also on children going for support elsewhere, that there's a lot of embedded support then for well-being in school is is really exciting.

SPEAKER_03 7:58

Yeah, yeah, it's very, very exciting work. And um, and I'm just wondering since introducing solution-focused practice uh in in the schools, what has it actually looked like in a day-to-day school life with students, staff, classrooms, and families?

SPEAKER_00 8:15

Yeah, um, it's it was about this time last year we we came together and looked at how we could roll it out. Um and

Rolling Out Solution-Focused Conversations

SPEAKER_00 8:24

it it was quite we were quite reflective on what would be the best strategy in ensuring it's embedded within the school as quickly as possible, also as effectively as possible. And we recruited around 10 of us who could drive it from different different departments, initially, some of the bigger departments, English, math, and science in particular, and then from a leadership point of view. And then slowly as the years gone on, we've we've scaled it down the school. So we wanted to um to you know take take our time, walk before we could run, but also ensure that we were driving it from different angles within the school. Um and once we got to that point where we were able to start rolling it out to staff at this academic year, we put in some training each half term um for staff to help see how it can be how it can be used. Um initially we focused on the heads of years and the pastoral team to enable a lot of those conversations that need the solution-focused conversations need uh took place from the head of years in particular and people who work from a pastoral perspective. That was our first port of call. And then as the years gone on, we've tried to roll it out into the classroom, and we've come up with a few um challenges as the years gone on about how we can make that effective in the classroom, especially when you've got 30 other students in front of you. What do those conversations look like? But um yeah, it's it it's it's been it's been rolled out as the years gone on, uh drip fed into the classrooms, so that staff feel empowered to use it when the situation is right to use it. And uh Fiona and Rose both mentioned a far more positive environment, and I definitely think that's the the key thing that you know it's around the school, the conversations between staff and students, the the interactions that you see taking place day to day are far more positive than they were uh a year or so ago for sure.

SPEAKER_05 10:21

Yeah. Wow, that's that's really wonderful to hear. And you kind of just sort of partly answered a question I was about to ask you, actually, Ben. But I mean, and picking up on some really key things that were said um around the sort of description of the work together with the school around that co-development. I absolutely love that, how you developed it together and that really focusing on improving communication and relationships, which you know, things that are really, really uh Vicky and I are particularly passionate about relationships within the school environment. Then I'm really curious to know when I mean I don't know whether you knew about solution focused before this sort of this study started, but I'm just really keen to know how what was the response when people were sort of initially when teaching staff and school communities, how did they respond to it?

SPEAKER_00 11:16

Look, no, I didn't um 18 months ago I was told told about this because that we were doing some work, some solution focused work in primary. Um look, I'm from a PE teaching background, and generally speaking, I'm very lucky in the sense that if I tell a kid to do something, they're gonna do it. Um, you know, head of behaviour, they're gonna react. But you know, I I recognise that isn't the same for for everyone. And

Staff Buy-In And Behaviour Routines

SPEAKER_00 11:38

we had to come up with um some solutions to empower staff to be able to want to rectify this and and and come up with solutions themselves and and build relationships themselves. But it it was difficult, it has been difficult to try and change people's ways and the way they do things, especially for staff who have been doing it a long time. You know, as I say, this is over 20 years of doing it. So from my point of view, it was it was hard to come away from what I know and what's always worked for me to try to do something differently. But then the moment you're doing it, and the moment you see it working, and the moment you see the students are making those decisions for themselves, which can only have a positive, more positive effect down the line, then me making that decision for them and taking that autonomy away from for them is the moment you go, right, actually, yeah, well, this this is a no-brainer, this is this works, and we need to drive this forward. And um, yeah, we've we've made it happen. So um we use this alongside another strategy called uh Chobram Expec. So we we pick up uh an area which we want to improve. So our very first Chobram XP, our school's called Childham, I think we can use our school name. Um, but it um we the students went through a phase of not wanting to wear their blazers. So what we wanted to do is train the students to understand why they needed to wear their blazers, why it was important, why we had that rule in place. So there was a period of training, and then after the period of training came the sanction. But during that period of training, it was important that staff had the solution-focused conversation around why that blazer wasn't being worn, what was expected of them, and how that's going to change future behaviours. And within a week of that training, the students were wearing their blazers, and as the years gone on, one of the most recent ones we've done is uh is around um a positive start to lessons. So as the year's gone on, it was outside of lessons initially, so we're not wearing their coats inside a building, wearing blazers as I've mentioned, being on time to lessons. But as the year's gone on, it's gone into the classroom. Um a recent one is a positive start to lessons. So students are expect to have a positive last start to lessons, is a set of rules that they need to follow when they come into the classroom, how we want them to start. Um teaching them why we want that, but then when they're getting it wrong, it's having that solution-focused conversation as to how they're going to rectify that going forward. And that's what's been powerful, and that's what's brought staff on board, I think.

SPEAKER_03 14:09

Wonderful. Um I'm really interested in what you said about sometimes it's difficult to get through to the staff, and you know, you want to make changes and you're really positive about it, but you're not always getting the response from the staff that you would like to be getting. And I guess my question is, and and maybe to Rose to ask how can you give us an idea of how the staff training took place and who might have been involved in that and and how it was laid out for them.

SPEAKER_01 14:45

Yeah. And I guess that's something. Well, first of all, as Ben mentioned, we started out with a group. Was it 10 of us, Ben? This week.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

Yeah, around 10, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

It was very exciting because you all get to come out of school for two whole days. Do you remember that? That was a very good thing. I did enjoy that. Yeah. Um so being being able to also give teachers the room to do some like proper training off

Training For 60-Second Interactions

SPEAKER_01 15:07

off-site was really important, but it's also logistically really different, difficult. And that's why kind of where Ben's skills came in then as a kind of a master of logistics, because looking at then how we were going to roll out the training and what that would look like with to all the staff in the secondary school, how many staff are there then in in secondary around?

SPEAKER_00 15:27

Uh teaching-wise around 80, 80 to 90. Teaching-wise in the course of 150, give or tell you.

SPEAKER_04 15:35

So we toured it up recently. We've trained 240 staff in total across primary and school. Yeah. Incredible.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

So there you go. So that's the first kind of conf kind of first issue. So we spent some time then planning with Ben, as Ben mentioned, there was some kind of senior leadership team, some departmental kind of heads, or so thinking about the different angles we would think about how we would train people. So we did first of all in-depth training with those group of 10-ish staff. And then we did all then we looked at the what are called inset days, which are like training days in schools, or you'll do other things in them as well, but that's partly for training. So they're protected time. And you have those how many times a year, Bendy?

SPEAKER_00 16:20

Um, we have five.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

Five. So we're very, very precious inset days. So we managed to get some training on the first inset day in school year. And then we planned to have um, we had then we had um further training sessions throughout the year, about every half time. So every six weeks or so. So where we then followed up with um further training sessions, and it was very responsive to what the staff wanted to focus on in those sessions, isn't that right, Fiona?

SPEAKER_04 16:55

So Yeah, I was gonna say that I think that's maybe been the key to keeping the the training going and and helping it being when you know where if there's been any kind of pushback from staff is is making sure that it's responsive to what they've told us they want. And also we've spoken to a lot of students, so you know, what students have told us they want, and then feeding that back to staff. Um, so a kind of example of how of that is that um one thing that the staff have really liked is they've really wanted sort of practical um tick tips, you know. Tara, we've spoken before about quick wins for staff. So um so we came, they wanted some conversation stems that they could use in classrooms or in quick conversations with individual students. Um so we came up with this one around um instead of why try, um, which they seem to like. So, you know, instead of saying, why are you late for school today? Why have you not done your homework? Why are you not wearing your blazer? Um, we gave them conversation stems that were, you know, using what questions or how questions, or even though, you know, it's tricky to focus right now, what could we do differently to have a better end to this uh lesson? Um and so we translated them into a further training for staff, and then we also made some posters that have been displayed in in staff areas. Um and I've just been doing some additional training for some staff who didn't receive that initial intensive training. And it was really nice because this training was this training I've just done was made up of um wider staff like uh the reception staff, the administrators, the library staff, um, the heads of sixth form who I haven't met before. And it was they really sort of um got on board with this concept of not asking why questions and trying out a different way. Um, you know, and I had some feedback from them that they they've tried that in the morning, the reception staff and the heads of sixth form. When students have come in late, instead of saying, Why are you late today? They've asked them a different question. Um, and the feedback is that actually they could see how powerful that was in sort of helping the, you know, bringing the student's guard down, making them more open, more responsive, um, letting them get on with their day in a better way. But also for the staff members, staff have told me that, you know, their day was more calm, more peaceful. Um, and they felt better as they went about their day. So I think if they're able to do something, a small little change, that can have a big ripple effect. And that's maybe the power of it, that they can they can then you know take that forward in their work.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

Yeah, you mentioned the connection phase there as well. Um you can't underestimate how important it is to start with a a a nice hello, how are you today, before going straight in why you late? Um, and uh that that connection is is so so important.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

Yeah. Yeah, we talked, yeah, we talked a lot about connection before correction, which obviously in wider literature as well, but that was quite an important element. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 20:00

Yeah. Well, that's yeah, wonderful to hear. And I think you you said ripple effect, Fiona, and as you were talking, I was kind of visualizing that uh that ripple effect effect, you know, across the whole school. And Ben, I think you you sort of alluded to that as well, the difference over the year, the momentum, and and that noticing, you know, we're obsessed with um interactions in the solution-focused approach and the importance of the tiny everyday interactions and the difference, the cumulative effect that that can make and create um the difference it can create in terms of a climate within a school environment. So it would be really lovely to hear about some particular moments or examples. You've shared some with us already, but any more that really highlight the difference on a big thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:51

Yeah, definitely. The the the penny drop moment for me was that it then this will stand out for me forever as a a young boy. He didn't want to go to his math lesson. Um, he he was struggling, he he he was like, I don't want to go to math, I just know I'm gonna get get removed from the lesson, get kicked out of the lesson. And and straight away, this this is like a month after the training, if that a week or so after the training. And um, straight away the conversation went

Stories Showing The Ripple Effect

SPEAKER_00 21:14

to right, so tell me about yourself on a good day in maths. And he starts to tell me all the things that you're doing on a good day in maths. And we we got we go through the the the process. We we haven't got time to talk about that whole process, but we go through the process and he and he takes himself off into the math lesson. Um the challenge was to get a a values point at a positive point, and and he goes into that lesson and he gets a positive point. Now, the old version of me, if it was me 18 months, two years ago, and I told that boy to go into the classroom, he would have done it because he would have listened to me, but he wouldn't have had a positive lesson. He may well have could uh have got kicked out, he would have just done what he was told to do because it was me. But as it happened, he stayed in that lesson, had a really positive lesson. I then saw him um a a day later and asked him about his math lesson. He said, Yes, but it went really Really well. He said I um I felt the same with my English lesson um uh earlier on today, but I just remembered the conversation we had and I tried to focus on the positive and I took myself into the English lesson, had a really good English lesson. And that's the the what that's the standout one for me because that was as I say that the the penny drop moment where I thought, wow, this this could change. If these conversations are taking place everywhere around the school, um it this could this could change a lot. And more recently, not so much from a behaviour perspective, it was a a girl um with exams, and I I caught her uh w a round the corridors after her speaking exam and she was in tears and she came up to my office and explained what was going on. Um and and rather than it's okay, it's okay, it'll be fine, it's kind of like we looked at what she had done well in the build-up to exams, um, what went well with the presentation, what how can she affect the next 75% because the exam was only worth 25%. So it was more again, it was it was just a more of a looking forward conversation, um, which helped her. And again, I saw her just before she was going into her exam the other day, her English exam, and she said things have been good. And you know, so there's a couple of examples there, and then in from a parent's perspective, it's I'm hearing it from my head of years that we're in um head-of-year meetings, and generally speaking, if a parent's coming in to meet a head of year is generally not for a good thing. And the that the language they're now using is look, it is look, I appreciate things are tricky now. I I completely understand this is a difficult time for this. Or um I heard you mention on your on your first episode of your podcast about how um just getting a per uh the the the guard down for the parents, letting their guard down, like what would you like to see happen? Um, and that's the language they're using now, so it's it's good. And um we're even at a point where if it's not a solution focused conversation, we're we we're calling each other out on it around the school. And that well, that wasn't very solution-focused, was it? So we're we're we're definitely getting there.

SPEAKER_05 23:59

Yeah. Oh wow, those are just incredible examples. I just want to pick up on one tiny thing. Sorry, okay. Excited about all the things that you're sharing. But I think that's that story, all of them wonderful. But that the one about the young person where you kind of put it back to her and asked her what she'd done in the past. I mean, if if we're having conversations with students about enabling them to notice themselves, what they've done in the past, what they can do for them, rather than us trying to fix it, even though well intended, telling them that everything will be okay, that the potential for their futures at leaving school, that they're going to be equipped with their own ways of managing uh in the complexities of life is just yeah, very exciting. Yeah, wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 24:47

Yeah, and I know Fiona and Rose and uh Tara, who's um not this Tara, another Tara who uh get around doing a lot of lesson observation. So Fiona, you might be able to feed back on some of the things you're seeing day to day because that these are longer conversations, but in the classroom, they can't be as long as they want them to be because it there's a there's a lesson going on, so you know it's creating that positive environment um in the classroom. So um, Fiona Rose, I don't know if there's anything that stands out for you.

SPEAKER_01 25:17

Yeah, yeah. Um go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 25:20

Yeah, my standout moments actually not from the the classroom. Mine is um so as part of this work, Rose and I have been running um group coaching sessions with um well it started out with some some girls who are in the secondary phase um who um the the they've been referred to us because the the teachers' best hopes were that their attendance would um improve at school. Um and so we have been running some solution focused sessions with them. And uh as part of one of them, I did the um folded paper exercise that you that I learned from you, Tara, that I think that you learnt from Ursula Bullman, um, where you where you fold the piece of paper over four times and you invite the person to notice what their hopes are, like moving forwards and what they're already doing that works. Um, and I did this as a silent exercise with um the girls. And then I there were times during these coaching sessions where I was maybe questioning myself, you know, perhaps had it been how useful were they for them. Um but then when we had our last session with the girls, I had a couple of the girls come up to me voluntarily and and mention that exercise to me and saying that they kept that piece of paper, you know, in their blazer or in their pencil case, um, as like a reminder of what they want to achieve in future and you know, as a reminder that they can do good things and that there are things that are going well in their life. So I think for me that was like it was really touching to know that you know, perhaps we had sowed some seeds that they they can then come back to in future. Um, and a reminder that even if you know things aren't necessarily you're feeling maybe a bit stuck at the time that there are things that may come to fruition for them in the future. So that was my stand-up moment.

SPEAKER_03 27:13

Yeah, that's that is uh I love that activity. And I think what it points to is that it's it is so much about the conversation that we have, the solution-focused conversation that we have, but it's also about how we walk away from it and how we process that conversation over time and the impact and the difference that it makes. And so these girls, by putting that in their pocket, keeping it, thinking about it over time, after that interaction with you, I think that that makes a huge difference. And what a message that is as well to teachers, that you know, sometimes we think we're not making a difference in the conversations that we're having or in in the lessons uh that we're putting forth. But students walk away and they process and it stays with them. So I I just love that, Fiona. Um, I'm wondering if there are any other examples that you might have. Rose.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

Um I mean, one of the things that Ben was quite clear with us about was because when we went in to do the training, first of all, we were very focused on individual conversations that maybe we we were thinking I'd have more time. But Ben was very clear that we really need to think about whole classes, 60-second, 30-second interactions, you know, very brief interactions. So um I guess that was

Classroom Moves That Keep Learning

SPEAKER_01 28:38

a real um so thinking about the classroom situation and thinking about relationships was was really interesting. So the way that we ran the training was um using a solution-focused approach, that we did a lot of scaling with the staff. So they're the experts on the being in the classroom, doing what they do. We we're not teachers. So um one of the really nice um suggestions that came up from the um dealing with the whole class situation in terms of maintaining the relationship was if a child is um not staying on task or needs to in in the whole class in lesson, often then that might lead to an on-call, which is either somebody somebody else like a year ahead or somebody like Ben might have to come along and try and deal with that situation. So immediately kind of you're escalating the situation to another member of staff, a more senior member of staff in in the system. So one of the suggestions that came up and I've seen um happening quite a lot is you ask the person who comes on call to go into the classroom, and the teacher steps outside with the student to talk about what happened and get them back on track and reset and go back in and maintain that kind of relationship with them and kind of keep and that they are the one who deals with the situation rather than escalating to somebody else. So the person who's who comes on call like Ben would go into the classroom for a few minutes or 60 seconds, two minutes, whatever. Teacher steps out with the student and and tries to help them get back on track. But you need to get back on track in the classroom to come back in, have a good rest of the lesson rather than focusing on what you did wrong. So I've seen that happening quite a lot, Ben Lam. I don't know if that you've seen that.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

Yeah, well, the moment you said that, I was delighted. Again, that's one of my favourite things to happen out of this because it's empowering the teachers to take responsibility for their classroom and they're doing that, and they want to do that as well. Um, to walk along to a classroom and say, Sir, would you mind standing in here while I go and speak to this student outside? It's great, and it's exactly what we want. And it's the language used in the classroom uh as well. Yeah, we we double underline in red, and rather than um uh picking a student saying, What why haven't you underlined that in red? You walk around the room and you say, Um, you tap on their book, and I love how you've double lined the under underlined that in red. They haven't yet done that, but it's using that positive language to do that rather than why haven't you done it? Yeah, you know, and it's just changing those mindsets, those small those small um tweaks to behaviours in the classroom all add up. It's those marginal gains that we we hear a lot about, and they all they all really do add up to create a more more positive uh atmospheric period in the classroom. Look, it's not perfect, there's still a lot of a lot of them, as I say, when when you're 50% um pupil premium, it brings a it does bring a lot of the challenges. But um, you know, if I if I look at you know, from a statistical point of view, we we're down around 75% in terms of suspensions for persistent disruptive behaviour year on year. Um and so that you know that's a it a huge decrease. And that's through the combination of the solution-focused um uh uh work that we're doing, the combination with the use of um uh class charts and the uh the Chop and X Backs that I mentioned earlier all form part of this triangulation and and help contribute to that calmer environment. And um ultimately um coming out of that circle that you know Rose just mentioned. Once the student is removed from lessons and I go and collect them and I take them away, and that's more learning missed, and they go back into the classroom the next lesson and they don't know what they've missed out on, and then it's kind of like, well, I don't know what's going on here, I'm gonna misbehave, so you get removed again. And eventually, you know, as we go through, if that's happening less and less, which it is, then that in turn will improve outcomes for students further down the line.

SPEAKER_02 32:32

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SPEAKER_05 32:53

Just kind of connecting to what you're saying, I kind of really curious to hear about, and this I think was kind of mentioned in the beginning about that actually for practitioners, I know for solution-focused practitioners, working in a solution-focused way makes a real difference to them as a practitioner and and actually their well-being. And so I'm really curious to hear, have you noticed anything about the sort of difference solution-focused practice makes to staff and their experience of uh teaching and and their well-being?

SPEAKER_00 33:31

Yeah, I mean, look, we do a staff survey regularly, and um

Staff Well-being And Parent Meetings

SPEAKER_00 33:36

when staff surveys talk about behaviour, that they're asked a question, what do you think about behaviour in a school? And it was resoundingly positive. I think there was only one teacher that said otherwise, I think maybe not even that, which again is an improvement year on year. And uh, I mean, we see in the news that uh that teacher well-being, most of the teacher well being is down to student behaviour, and if student behaviour's in a positive direction that uh has an effect on their well-being. Um one of my remates in the school is overseeing cover as well, and again, year on year, I don't have any statistics on that, but the uh the ITE says year on year um that there has been less staff absence for um for illness year on year, um, which which again points towards what what you're suggesting there. Um Rose Fiona, I don't know if any of your conversations with staff have have pointed towards that.

SPEAKER_04 34:28

So um I was just gonna mention that because this is a research study, so we're also running a research evaluation as part of that. Um, and because we've run it over one school year, and obviously we're in the end of May now, um, so we're coming up to the sort of end of the school year. So um we're gonna be doing uh sort of end-of-year interviews with staff. So that's something we're you know, we should hopefully have some more findings on. Um and we we've been doing questionnaires with staff um as well as students over this pan academic year. Um because we were really keen to not just look at student outcomes. So we're getting staff to complete, um, we've asked them to complete questionnaires about you know their job satisfaction, um, their sense of efficacy in and outside the classroom, and their capacity for solution building. Um, we don't have the results in yet, but you know, hopefully by the end of this year we will have something positive to say and then sort of topped up with the um interviews that we're going to be doing with staff over the summer term. I think that's something we'll definitely explore.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

Very exciting. Yeah, from individual conversations, I would also say, and I don't think this necessarily comes up in a group conversation in school, Ben, but a lot of the teachers have mentioned taking it outside of school into their lives more generally. Um so for things like at home or if they're many of them are parents, and obviously it's really interesting from a parents' point of perspective as well. Um, so I think that's something that staff have mentioned more kind of on in one-to-one conversations rather than in the the the whole because obviously when we do training, there's 80 staff in a big room, and there's very different levels of seniority, you know, the most junior staff to the you know, the executive principal and the senior leadership team. And what people, you know, there'll be different dynamics in the room around what people will share in those settings. Um so I think that's and and interestingly, we did one session, one solution focused session with staff on well-being, didn't we? So we just used a scaling approach saying if 10 was the best this school could be around supporting teacher well-being and zero was the you know, is the opposite, where are we now? And the usual why and why not lower and how can we go one point up? And that that's something that generated a lot of some discussions as well, then internally around teacher well-being, didn't it?

SPEAKER_00 36:46

Yeah, it did, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:47

Yeah. So yeah, such a versatile approach, I guess, in terms of yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:52

It's definitely improved my well-being, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_03 36:56

Can you tell us a little bit about uh your communication with parents and any training that you may have done with them?

SPEAKER_04 37:03

Every stuff um on parent communication last week. Um and they gave me a lot of scenarios of of things that come up, um, you know, around sort of how to like de-escalate um parent conversations and meetings with parents, um, you know, potentially when when you know there's an issue, a specific issue in mind. Um, and so I had I, you know, every week when I come back for more training, I say, have you tried out any of the solution focused techniques this week? And and how have you got on? And again, I had some feedback from um their heads of years that they've been trying, starting out their parent meetings with um, so sort of setting the intention before they went to the meeting and you know, come bringing to mind something positive about the student, even if there's an issue they need to talk about. Um something they like about the student, something that the the student's good at, and bringing that to start the meeting with that, and how they've just found that as a really simple but effective way of opening the conversation. And um, you know, they were saying that before some of the conversations with parents could be perhaps defensive. Um, and this just starting with something positive can really just sort of de-escalate that and just open up a whole different type of conversation where you're thinking more sort of collaboratively about, you know, we both want what's best for the child and how can we work towards the outcome that everyone wants. Um, so yeah, just something simple like that, and how and again the ripple effect that has.

SPEAKER_01 38:38

Yeah, I'm probably just to add to that around um the context of maybe parental complaints as well. So taking this approach where you know a parent has escalated a complaint maybe against the school, um, and obviously things are kind of getting a little bit more you know the stakes are higher. So thinking about so I've seen I've been involved in a couple of meetings where taking this approach has really helped the conversation move forward rather than getting into a kind of like a defensive conversation about what went wrong and why and whose fault it was. It's like how can you move on from this and what difference would it make and what will be the first signs of that? And who would notice and and what difference would it make? So it's it just brings the brings the whole toll into a very different space, I would say, in in that context with parents. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:27

Well, and I think that it it definitely empowers parents to not to be thinking about the problem, but to be thinking about the absence of the problem and what is working and you know, all of the wonderful attributes that their children have. Because it's very easy for parents to become immersed in that problem talk, isn't it? Yeah, because they're living these challenges every day and they struggle. Um that's wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 39:54

And also if you use, I mean, using the scale, so saying, like, well, if 10 is the best, it could be zero is the worst. Where is it now at the school for you and your child? And they they might surprise you and say, well, it's five or it's a six, and you say, Well, so what is going well? Why is it not lower? And then immediately then that reframes the parental perspective as well, around you know, things that are actually the school is doing well, but otherwise would never come out in the conversation. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:21

And it's mad, isn't it? Our instinct, our kind of norm is to think we go into these things, assuming that we must talk about the problem and we need to ask the why. Solution focused is such a wonderful paradigm shift, isn't it? Writing. And it's not until, as you describe, as you ask those questions, and people are like, There are some things that are going well here.

SPEAKER_01 40:45

But it'd be quite surprising to them as well, as well to everybody in the room. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:49

Yeah, which is just wonderful. Yeah. It's about some hope, isn't it? Yeah. There's uh yeah, we're kind of moving towards the end of our questions, and yet there's so I feel like we can have a part two, a part three.

SPEAKER_03 41:02

Yes. Um there is so much to this.

SPEAKER_05 41:05

I think you know, what you're sharing is is so wonderful to hear and really exciting. And you know, I we'd love to kind of know about looking ahead and

Hopes, Evidence, And Sharing Resources

SPEAKER_05 41:16

and what your hopes are from this work and um and you know, within your own school, but actually outside of that as well. What's possible? Um, and perhaps alongside that, you know, what you would want to kind of end our uh conversation on today, what would be your key kind of reflection or something that you would want to share with our listeners that would be really important for them to take away from this conversation today?

SPEAKER_00 41:48

Absolutely question. Yeah, I think for me, for me, it's about being open-minded. Um the more we've gone on, the more we've gone on, the the longer we've gone on, the more I've realized how flexible it can be. I've gone from thinking that this is a one-to-one, you need 20 minutes one-to-one, to to doing it with two uh doing a scaling exercise with 210 students in an assembly. Um and it is is really flexible. It it gives students so much ownership when they're talking about what they're gonna do. Not what I'm telling them to do, not what I'm telling what they should be doing, it's what they're gonna do. And when you say you're going to do something yourself, it's more likely to happen than if someone tells you you need to do something. Um that's the standout thing for me, and that's what I want to keep uh keep driving forward. Obviously, that uh I've mentioned this earlier, there there is a we still do need to embed it. I still there's still pockets where it doesn't happen frequently enough where there are opportunities for for it to happen. Um but that will that will take time and it and and we've got to continue driving it through and eventually we can get to a point where we're branching out into other schools, either in the local community or within the federation, and that would be that would be great as well.

SPEAKER_01 43:11

Yeah. I mean, I think you're right. I think that's for us the kind of well, the challenge and the opportunity is the further embedding, I would say, in the school. And a lot, I mean, I think we've achieved a lot more than we thought we would achieve within one. 100%. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:26

100%.

SPEAKER_01 43:27

Um, yeah. And for me, I think Fiona might have something different, but I'm really excited about the idea of like and what we hear, because we do so much talking to the students about the kind of power of restorative conversations and resetting. Because what students kind of tell us again and again is something just small, one small thing goes wrong with a teacher, and they think that teacher hates them and it's kind of holding it against them. The relationship never gets back to a good start, and then it just has this interactional kind of ripple effect through every single interaction with. Teacher, then interactions with other teeth in other classes as well. So I think that's something that we're kind of really kind of interested in. That's going to be the focus of our um next training session. And Linda Metcalf is over from the state. So she's coming into school with us to do um to look at restorative conversations. And we're going to take um students who are in reflection, aren't we, Ben? I'm going to take them over and do some live. We're going to take 30 students over, I think, and do some live SF conversations around how things can be different. So yeah, I'm really excited about that. And Fianna, I don't know what you're particularly excited about.

SPEAKER_04 44:37

Yeah, yeah, I guess I guess it's sort of building on what you're saying, but um I guess what feels most exciting for me about the future of this work is the potential of it to sort of reshape those everyday interactions. So it's like the small changes and how, you know, we can see over this year how that can then impact in a much bigger way on a culture change, even though that can take some time to embed. But um, you know, particularly when we're thinking about schools as really, really busy places and how we don't want to make this a burden for staff. So but if we think of it as really kind of simple but powerful tools that they can, the schools can integrate into their existing structures. Um, you know, and they can use it, adapt it to however what the school needs, um, whatever works for them, um, if we think about them as the experts on this. Um, so therefore, I'm quite excited about the potential of how how we can fit it into those existing school structures um and giving both students and staff the kind of ownership and the agency to to take it where they want that suits their their own school.

SPEAKER_01 45:44

And of course, we're really, I mean, what we really like to do is produce the evidence around that so then you can we can roll it out to more schools. I mean, if we get the evidence behind it, that will be really helpful in terms of thinking like policy chip policy and then you know, money flowing for this kind of work, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 46:02

And yeah, that's and I believe your plan is to develop uh manual resources and so on that so it where where are we in that stage of development? And can our listeners um purchase these materials? Can they access them?

SPEAKER_01 46:21

So Fiona, I guess that's a that is a question for us. I know it's on our it's on our to-do list. The manual is I would say currently still um in development, but every time we do and we go into the school, we kind of refine it and update it. And um, so I think that's a conversation we need to we need to probably come back to you on if that would be something, Vicky. But we're happy to share resources. People please get in touch with us um, you know, as far as possible. Um yeah, I mean the the solution folks community is very generous in that respect. So I think sharing the resources widely is always a good thing.

SPEAKER_04 46:55

Wonderful. And um mentioned we have a website which is um www.solution talkinschools.co.uk. Um so we do have a link to sort of uh research publications on there and other resources, so yeah, please visit.

SPEAKER_03 47:10

Thank you. And and we do have one last little question, and that is what would you hope that our listeners can take away from today? Just maybe in a few words.

SPEAKER_00 47:28

I think I said it. Yeah, I still stand, but be open-minded. Be quiet. What could go wrong?

SPEAKER_01 47:36

For me, it's the power of a single conversation and the ripple effect that has on that person's then interactions with everybody else, both inside school and outside school, family, life, friends, everything.

SPEAKER_04 47:49

Yeah, I guess mine would be very, very, very similar to what Raj just said. But um also I guess I I'm really keen on the sort of the hope that this gives um students and staff in school. So, yeah, the power of like a simple conversation and how that can change the course of maybe you know a student's experience in school. And ultimately, this is you know, this project has been about sort of um well-being, so you know, about sort of promoting happiness in school and the potential of this to make schools happier places.

SPEAKER_05 48:22

Oh, well, that's wonderful. Thank you so much for joining us today. I've absolutely loved that conversation and looking forward to sharing it with everybody. So that's goodbye.

SPEAKER_03 48:33

Thank you so much, all of you. Thanks.

SPEAKER_00 48:35

Thanks for having us.

SPEAKER_05 48:37

Take care. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 48:41

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Key Takeaways And Goodbye

SPEAKER_02 48:44

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