'Less of You' Leadership; An Interview with Jason Pascoe

A school can have the right plans and still feel exhausted in practice. Productive change can best be measured by the quality of our conversations, what we listen for, and how much space we give other people to think. In our inspiring interview with Jason Pascoe, he explains why solution focus is simple but not easy, and how it helps leaders to stop defaulting to “fixing” and to start listening for strengths, resources, and the exceptions that already work. We explored the “more of you” versus “less of you” continuum in leadership conversations, including how staying too directive can quietly create learned helplessness across a team.

Jason Pascoe is a leadership consultant, coach, former teacher and school leader with over 20 years’ experience across education and organisational development. Beginning his career in schools, Jason understands firsthand the complexity, pressure, and relational demands of working with people every day. As the Founder of The Enactive Solution and Vice-President of the Australasian Solution-Focused Association, Jason specialises in translating Solution-Focused practice and related research into practical conversations that help people move forward, strengthen relationships, and reduce burnout.

Jason’s work spans education systems across Australia and internationally, where he has supported thousands of educators and leaders. He also co-hosts the Towards Solutions Podcast, where he engages global Solution-Focused practitioners to share their work and promote Solution-Focused practice. Thank you Jason for a great conversation!

For more information, go to: The Enactive Solution, Toward Solutions Podcast, Dialogic Orientation Quadrant, Collective Best Hopes Doc: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WwO51NWbJGqQ1uA6TSonJ_0ZVHintlgu/view?usp=sharing, Jason’s Café 

THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS:

Work Collaborative, a not-for-profit movement restoring confidence in schools worldwide. Based on the best-selling book Change Starts Here by Shane Leaning and Efraim Lerner, Work Collaborative helps schools lead change from within instead of relying on external solutions. The collaborative’s approach trusts that teachers, leaders, parents and students have the capability to solve their own challenges when given the right support. If you're interested in solution-focused approaches that build internal capacity, join this global movement of educators at workcollaborative.com.

Instructional Coaching Group is the global destination for coaching in education, including instructional coaching and leadership coaching. Led by Dr. Jim Knight, ICG’s work is grounded in more than 25 years of research focused on improving teaching and strengthening leadership, with the ultimate goal of increasing student success. Through research-based learning and consulting, the Instructional Coaching Group partners with schools and systems worldwide to build sustainable coaching practices and programs that support schools. www.instructionalcoaching.com 

The Canadian Centre for Brief Coaching (CCBC) - Founded by Dr. Haesun Moon, is a company based in Toronto, Ontario, Canada.  The CCBC provides competency-based workplace training programs as well as coaching and consulting services to organizations across sectors, both in Canada and across the globe. Since its inception as a research body and think tank comprised of graduate students, subject-matter experts and community partners, the CCBC has evolved to provide programs and services designed  with Solution Focused Coaching as the fundamental framework. Go to: www.pracademia.com 

 Family Based Solutions is a charitable organization based in the UK and founded by Ayse Adil and Joe Lettieri. They offer counselling services, support groups, solution focused training, online support and global leadership. They work collaboratively to end the cycle of abuse in families and to repair relationships.  Using Solution Focused Brief Therapy (SFBT), FBS gives families full control of their healing, alowing families to take small and manageable steps toward their bests hopes. Go to https://familybasedsolutions.org.uk/

Transcript

Welcome And Sponsor Thanks

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Thanks to our sponsor, Work Collaborative, a not-for-profit movement that helps schools lead change from within. They trust that teachers, leaders, parents, and students have the capability to solve their own challenges when given the right support. Join this global movement of educators at workcollaborative.com.

SPEAKER_03 0:22

Good morning, everyone, and uh thank you for listening today. Uh, welcome to School Solutions Talk. I'm Vicky Essebag. Uh, Tara Gretten is here. Hi, Tara. Hi, Vicki. And we've got Jason Pasco. Hi, Jason.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Hello.

SPEAKER_03 0:38

Hi, Jason. And uh, we're so fortunate to be interviewing Jason today. Um, uh, we've been waiting for this uh lovely opportunity, and I just want to say a few words about Jason. Um, he is a leadership consultant, coach, and former teacher and school leader with over 20 years' experience across education and organizational development. Beginning his career in schools, um, he understands firsthand the complexity, pressure, and relational demands of working with people every day. He's the founder of the Inactive Solution and vice president of the Australasian Solution Focused Association. Jason specializes in translating solution-focused practice and related research into practical conversations that help people move forward, strengthen relationships, and reduce burnout. His work spans education systems across Australia and internationally, where he has supported thousands of educators and leaders. Jason also co-hosts the Towards Solutions podcast, where he engages global solution-focused practitioners to share their work and promote solution-focused practice. Welcome, Jason.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

Thank you. Well, when you hear it read out like that.

SPEAKER_03 1:58

Sounds a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

Thank you very much. It's great to be here.

SPEAKER_03 2:06

It's great to have you.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

Yeah, we're really looking forward to this conversation with you, Jason, and yeah, really enjoyed a little bit of conversation that we've already had before we started the podcast. Um, so I I think I was saying to you that I was listening to your wonderful podcast, Towards Solutions, um, that you have with Dion Singh. And um, I love the way, well, we love the way that you open up your podcast. So we thought maybe we'd steal your opening question and um ask you. Um, what do you love about the solution-focused approach?

SPEAKER_00 2:46

Great question. Um I'm not sure I've answered that before. I've asked it lots of times. Um, what do I love? I think I think what

Falling For The Simplicity

SPEAKER_00 3:00

I really fell in love with was the simplicity. And that doesn't mean it's easy, but the simplicity and um the way it opens up a space for me to be impressed with the person that I'm listening to. And it saved me 25% of my conversation time as a coach when I first discovered it. So an hour session would finish in 45 minutes, and it was easier just to wrap it up because people were happy. But it was so it was efficient. It was really efficient. As soon as people could describe what they wanted.

SPEAKER_04 3:45

Yeah. Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Impressed with the people um that yeah, that you're having the conversations with. I really love that and the simplicity. And could you just share a little bit with our listeners about because like you said, it's not easy. Um but but it's the simplicity. How would you just describe the simplicity as a solution-focused approach?

SPEAKER_00 4:17

Oh, long pause. Um, let me think. I suppose now I would say it all happens in the listening. And one of the things I emphasize the most now when I work with leaders is um, what are you listening for? So when you understand that you're listening for strengths and resources and skills and strategies that people are using in context, and it's often a context that you might not be in. And you can feed those things back into a conversation.

Listening For Strengths Not Fixes

SPEAKER_00 5:01

People get traction on what they want very, very quickly. But being disciplined enough to listen explicitly for those things and then use them in the conversation isn't that easy. Because sometimes, especially as educators, we can be well-intentioned fixers. We live in relational environments where there's something going on all the time, and it seems like it's easier just to give people an answer, go away and do this, try that, then then hold a space for them to navigate that relational complexity.

SPEAKER_03 5:45

Yeah. Yes. Yeah, and I guess it as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking, wow, I'm really fascinated by uh Jason's background in education as an educator and an administrator. And how what was it for you, what was it like for you then having those conversations with folks in schools?

SPEAKER_00 6:14

Well, I discovered solution focus uh after I'd finished my education career. I actually am the third, a third generation teacher. Uh, mum and dad are both high school teachers. Mum's mum was a primary school teacher, and to be honest, I vowed never to be one because

From Teacher To System Coach

SPEAKER_00 6:30

I was that kid they came home to at the end of the day. I had great parents, don't get me wrong. But I I I so my undergrad qualifications are in exercise, physiology, and biomechanics. Um, then I went on to study epidemiology. No one knew what it was back then. They thought it was something to do with the skin. We all know what it is now, uh, and population medicine. And then I met my lovely wife and thought I'd better get a real job. So I wrote to the Department of Education and they said be a PE teacher. So I progressed to being head of faculty, and I got to that point in my career where I could progress into senior leadership. And a lot of the senior leaders that I worked with didn't seem terribly happy. Um, and my sister, who's a child and adolescent psychologist, said, I've found your dream job. I thought, well, that sounds good to me. So I left uh education at that point and I went to manage uh a project called School Link. So I worked on a child and adolescent mental health team and I worked with 53 secondary schools, over 120,000 square kilometers, me, a laptop, and a car. And I was responsible for mental health promotion, prevention, early intervention, and pathways to care. Um, which also meant I had no line management leveraging conversations anymore. And I was working on the edge of education, so some conversations went better than others. Uh, and I had no idea why until I found the solution-focused approach and went, oh that's why those conversations went well, and that's why others didn't go so well. And that's when I could be more intentional about what I was doing in conversations and get better at it. So I think the big key was I lost line management leverage. It wasn't an option in a conversation anymore. And that's the challenge I see, and I work with a lot of leaders, they're used to being, there's used to having a lot of them in the conversation and not a lot of the other person. And there's a whole bunch of reasons for that, and it's neither I'm not saying that's right or wrong. Sometimes you need to be quite directive and say, go and do this and this, come back and let me know how it's gone. But if you stay there, if you live in that more of you, then you are breeding learned helplessness in your team because they will learn to come back to you and say, What do you want me to do next? And what do you want me to do next? And that's a rod for your back. Whereas you might be quite directive in some conversations, but then you've got to open up a space where people can reflect and think through what it is that they wanted to achieve and what's working and

More Of You Less Of Them

SPEAKER_00 9:30

what might be next for them. So you move up and down this more of you, less of you space in a conversation.

SPEAKER_03 9:41

I love that that the way that you frame that, you know, that it's either more of us in the conversation or less of us in the conversation, and that in the solution focus focused conversation, there is in fact less of us in the conversation. And I I can really see the value of that in schools. Can you talk to us a little bit more about that in schools and school systems and how you support them in bringing less of themselves to the conversation?

SPEAKER_00 10:18

Yeah, look, I back in, I think it was about 2013, 2014, I was working with um quite a large school. We ended up training over 200 staff uh in uh a coaching style of conversation. And I'd been working with the senior leadership team. They had um, we were about six weeks

Mapping School Conversation Spaces

SPEAKER_00 10:40

post a two-day training. And I was back there to do a follow-up. And uh, you know, I said, Oh, what's better? And they said, nothing. We haven't had any time to do any of this stuff. It was great training, but you know, we're just too busy. So we started to look at where have you been spending your time in conversations? Uh, has it been those more directive, more of you conversations, or what are the what are the moments that you've held space for someone else? And we went back through some of the pieces of the training and they started to place moments on this continuum. And in that moment, I thought, you know, conversations happen all over the place in schools. And sometimes we think too much about the formal ones and not enough about the informal ones, the corridor, the car park, the playground. So I drew a vertical line on the horizontal line, and the top of the vertical line was formal and the bottom was informal. And they went back and they got their post-it notes for these little moments, those sparkling moments that they'd had, and they started to place them into different quadrants. And that became an article that a guy called John Campbell and I wrote for Rachel Lofthouse in the UK. And it was, we called it the Leadership Conversations Map. And fast forwarding to now, I was at the Australian Council of Educational Leaders, New South Wales coaching conference a couple of weeks ago, and we were talking about conversations are the work of leadership. That is your tool, that is your greatest tool. Um, so what are the hot topics in your school? And where formally you're leading the conversation, the more of you formal stuff, or the less of you formal stuff, where there are spaces for others to step forward and have a voice and maybe lead? Or what about the what about the informal pieces where you see someone maybe and you say, Oh, have you can can I ask you a question about such and such? So you're still leading the conversation, there's still you in there, and you're introducing the topic. Or what are the conversations where people come to you, you know, and they say, Have you got a minute? Or I've been thinking about so I realized back then that there are these four kinds of spaces that all of these conversations in schools happen. And some of those conversations as leaders were not invited to. And that's where I started to dive into some of Sean O'Connor's research from the University of Sydney. He did uh his PhD around the ripple effect of coaching conversations and how they ripple out from one. So he put um social networking algorithms on uh coaching conversations as nodes in an organization. And um then he kind of measured the ripple of that, and there was a well positive well-being ripple that came from good quality coaching conversations with leaders. So the leaders were being coached, and I started to think about what are the conversations in this kind of leadership conversation map that happens in schools, these spaces that we're in all the time. How do they ripple into the conversations that we're not invited to? So that's that's how I've been stuck. That's how it kind of started. And now I'm more and more talking to people about what is it that you're listening for? Where are the conversations happening? What are the hot topics in your context? Uh, good or bad, you know, uh, and what are you hoping for in terms of each of those topics? And we you can actually map where people are having these conversations, where the opportunities are. It it makes me think of um Professor Jane Dutton's research around high-quality um connections in workplaces. And she does talk about a smile in a corridor, doesn't even have to be a conversation. They can make someone's day, you know. Um, making sure you make them a cup of coffee when you boil the jug because they're standing there waiting to make it. Something as simple as that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:24

Yes. I mean, yeah, Vicky, this is something we talk about a lot, and something that I am particularly um yeah, obsessed with actually. And in particular in um one school that I work in here in in the UK, Beatrich Cliff, it's something that that we have noticed so much of what you're speaking about when we first introduced solutions focused into the school. And it was um, you know, training the school staff, and it was it was conversations with leaders, and it was all, you know, it was all good, and then it started to kind of ripple out. And actually, what we noticed, what was actually so powerful, so much more meaningful, was the everyday interactions, and that we could utilise solution-focused assumptions and ways of being and ways of interacting and that intentionality around how we can use it that that what was in the corridor in those tiny, tiny moments, and and then really breaking down some barriers between um the leaders because schools are fascinating, like that, isn't it? That sort of, you know, that closed door almost. This is a leadership conversation, and you're not part of that. And and that can build some divide between staff and and and leaders. So I love what you're saying about, you know, how do we, you know, I'm really curious to know more about that, sort of bringing the conversations that are happening, the good ones and the bad ones, in the corridors, in the staff room, and amongst the teams into the leadership and and how that kind of goes across. Um and yeah, and I think you kind of referred to sort of thinking about well-being, and I and I'm wondering what a difference it makes to to the well-being of of school communities when we're um having more of these kind of open conversations and where we're focusing more on the everyday and the importance of um everybody being part of some of the bigger conversations, too.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

What a great question. Um Well, there's something there's one thing, Tara, I'd like to pick up on, because you said yes, as leaders, sometimes we can have these conversations behind closed doors, but we've got to realize that there are conversations we're not invited to as leaders as well. You know, the meeting after the meeting where the real meeting happens?

Ripples Allies And What’s Called For

SPEAKER_04 18:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

And that's where that's where the idea of the um the conversational ripples start to happen. That there that there are people who will go with a conversation, right? That you start as a leader. And um what I mean by that is you will there will be people who are your allies as you introduce new things. And this is one of the things that that I learned in in the work that I was um was doing with Mark McCurgo around host leadership is in a in a more coach-like conversation, you're listening for what's wanted. But in a leadership conversation, as a and seeing it, thinking about yourself as a host of multiple conversations, you're not just listening for what's wanted, you're listening for what's being called for. Because you're listening to multiple conversations. And as you interact with those conversations, um, there are people who will go with you, some quicker than others, and they're the ones in the meeting after the meeting that start to champion the narrative and the conversation and the change that's being called for. And without knowing this is this ripple effect idea that I got from um um from Sean O'Connor is that if you're if you can understand what's being called for and you know what that preferred future looks like, and you're engaging multiple relational perspectives in that. So it's not just what I think should be happening and what difference I think that will make. It's what is it that we think should be happening? It's what it's one of the reasons I really love, and this I'll get to the well-being bit, I promise, right? But it's um it's one of the reasons that I love working with um leadership teams because there's this idea of a collective best hope. And in that one-to-one conversation, we'll often talk about what are your best hopes from our conversation or how we know this has been useful and things. But when you're asking, um, and I'll do this is often the way I'll do it, everyone will end up with a, you know, I'm a consultant, so I give everyone a post-it note. If you don't give everyone a post-it note, you're not a proper

Building A Collective Best Hope

SPEAKER_00 20:30

consultant, right? So you and they get to think about what are what are our best hopes for this school in the next whatever the time frame is. One school I worked with a few um a few years ago look at um three years out. You know, what are our best hopes for this school over the next three years? And then on the back of the post-it note, they had to write individually um what difference that would make for students, what it would difference it would make for parents, what difference it would make for them in their role. And then they got together with a partner and they had to share their best hopes and the differences that it would make. And then they had to uh then they got a little card and they had to write, find they had to listen for the common ground and then write a best hope with their partner that captured both. And then the groups of two got together, and so groups of four now writing a best hope, and then groups of four became groups of eight. And then all of a sudden you've got two groups in the room, and they've got these big flip charts with their best hopes on, and they can each articulate what difference it would make for their colleagues as individuals, and what difference it would make for students and parents. Now, without students and parents in the room, we've still got people, we've still got students and parents in the room. Because people are at least imagining what those best hopes would be like for them. And then once they've come up with, and this is not said in concrete, it can change over the workshop time, it can change over. The days and the weeks, but there becomes this collective best hopes statement. If you can do that with a team, we're starting to think from the individual level to the collective level, and then this was this was this is always fun because you do this before you look at your data. A lot of schools will say, come, we've just done our you know our student surveys and our parent surveys, and um, but if you can look at your data through the lens of your collective best hopes, then you're on a treasure hunt. And you can then talk about what's working and how do we do that? And you can also talk about what's not working, and then you ask the solution focused question. So out of what's not working, what would you like to be happening instead? And there are themes that start to fit, and some of it will be practice things, some of it will be process things, some of it will be partnership things, and if you can listen for those themes across those lists, you get a really clear idea of where we might need to start working next.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

You're giving me lots of ideas. I yes, I I'm thinking about Hey, this is the inset day activity that I should be doing with that.

SPEAKER_03 23:33

Well, uh you know what? I'm I'm really, really uh curious about the the collective best hopes.

SPEAKER_01 23:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:43

The collective best hopes and how you've broken it down or how you've built it up, essentially, to say, okay, these are the best hopes, these are my best hopes, but then what are our best hopes, and then the larger group and then the larger group until we get to that place where we're really talking about the group's best hopes. And I I love that, Jason, because in schools we don't usually talk about the group's best hopes.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

I think what's really important is asking about the differences. So, what what difference would that make for you in your role? What difference would that make for our students? What difference would that make? Because then you can head into um what would we be noticing? What would they be noticing about us? And that's the detail because as soon as you um you start to build a collective best hope, people start to abstract the conversation. So to use Mark and uh Mark McKergho and Paul Jackson's words, you know, they start to use $5,000 terms, not $5 terms. But if you're asking the other questions and those relational, interactional ones, you've got all these $5 notes, if you like, hanging around the room. And there's a big collective best hope. But you can describe what would be different, what would be the signs of progress, what's happening now.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

Yeah. And that makes it tangible, doesn't it? You know, within that, I'm really kind of visual and I'm kind of seeing all these post-its, all these sort of all these. So you've got this massive thing, and and within that, you've got these tiny things that everybody can, it's it's really accessible, isn't it? It's really doable. Uh people can kind of step back into school life and instantly be able to to put that into practice, whatever that might be. Because that's so often, you know, it's like, oh, I've just got caught up in the school of back into term, and I just like forgot about all of that. And and actually that difference and the detail of what that would look like, that tiny, tiny small step, it feels really doable. Yeah. Wow, yes, I literally have you just designed my activity.

SPEAKER_00 26:15

That's see, that's the for me, that's the fun stuff. And I think it's the it's that epidemiology, population medicine background where where I got to step back and look at the big picture stuff. What are the patterns here? What's um, what are we noticing? But to make it concrete and actionable and doable was very, very important in those. Well, it is very important when you're working on strategy because how many times have people written a school plan and they know there's like some sort of here we call it external validation, you know, the by the panel comes in and you've got to have um a whole range of stuff, and you get rated at different um, you know, different levels. Um and I did this with one school only a year ago. They were just heading into their external validation. I worked with them for six months, and we got them to think about um, because we'd also use some of the concept of host leadership, so we got them to think about they were hosting the panel.

Making Strategy Concrete And Fast

SPEAKER_00 27:21

And what were they actually inviting the panel to? Let's suppose it was a dinner, and what would be on the menu? So, based on the key things they had to present, they had to they came up with um a three or four course menu. And they had all of their ingredients, their data there. And we spent four hours, four hours, half a day. Um, and I was coming back a couple of weeks later for another half a day, and after four hours, they said, you know what, we've got it, we've nailed it. So that everything was so actionable and concrete that they put their external validation process together in four hours and in two weeks and delivered on it ready to go.

SPEAKER_03 28:05

It's that actionable stance, yeah, right. We're not going to sit in discussing the issues or we're not going to be thinking about all of that. We're just moving into that actionable stance. And um it's it's very empowering from the get-go, isn't it? To be able to say, you know, let's really think about how the how we want to do this and what comes out of that. Um yeah. Sorry, sorry, yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 28:41

Sorry. Uh, and I kind of it brings me back to that question around well-being, you know, because you describe solution focused as as conversation as protection against burnout, you know, and I think through our work in in schools, you know, that's so often, you know, it's it it well-being feels sometimes that it's something that feels neglected or it's kind of you know, or um it's discussed, but it's not there aren't many actions. And and so I'm yeah, curious to what difference does this make to we've seen the difference that it can make, you know, to to to staff well-being and um, as you say, can protect people against burnout. But yeah, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_00 29:35

Um, I suppose again, my interest there came out of my background. Once I'd finished working on that project I mentioned before across 53 schools, I was actually asked to work on a a national project that was part of our youth suicide prevention initiative in Australia. It was called Mind Matters and it was in secondary schools. Um, so I found myself

Wellbeing Ripples Against Burnout

SPEAKER_00 30:00

coordinating uh a state component of that. So I in I went from 53 schools to 907. And um part of my role was to help schools set up um data-informed mental health and well-being plans through a mental health promotion lens rather than an illness lens. And it got to 2011, and I was running that project, and I'd learned I'd had a huge amount of fun, I'd worked with some amazing schools, uh, and that's when I met um Mark McCugo and Jenny Clark in Sydney, and we went out for dinner after a workshop, and um uh I started to put solution focus into the practice of those workshops. And what I what I found was that yes, at an individual level, this is this is amazing. And you can look at um Dr. Adam Froa's research with Bolivian child protection workers, you can look at the research that happened in the Tenerife, um, that people who know how to have a solution-focused conversation um end up better off than people who don't. So, what got me thinking about the ability for leaders to have a solution-focused conversation was only a year and a half, maybe two years ago, um, there was some research done in Australia by um Dr. Adam Fraser, and it was looking at secondary traumatic stress in educators. And he found, it's one of the largest studies that's been done, he found that educators have higher levels of vicarious trauma or secondary traumatic stress than paramedics and psychologists. So I I had a couple of conversations with Adam about his research, and it it's kind of like um teachers are in this highly relational space where they're picking up the little bits of everything from colleagues, from families, from kids. And if we're that well-intentioned fixer, because we love people and we love what we do and we want to help, we take on more and more and more. And it takes its toll. But Adam Froer's research was very interesting because he used a vicarious resilience measure. And he was able to show that after three days of training in having solution-focused conversations, child protection workers in Bolivia actually got a bounce in their own resilience from listening to their clients really well, asking them solution-focused questions, and being impressed with the way they were navigating their complexity. So I think it's really important that these things work on this level and the ripples that they have, if we notice the patterns, some of the some of the schools that I've seen that have done this really well, they align their practice. Often we'll go in and we'll talk about this is the practice we need to see from teachers, and this is the things we need to see kids doing, and it's all in the doing. But you'll hit policies, procedures, and processes that block the practice at some level. And we learnt this on the National Mind Matters project because a lovely, lovely man called Trevor Hazel, who ran the Hunter Institute of Mental Health here, um, won the contract to do the national evaluation. And one of the things that they did in the evaluation is they looked through the lens of the health promoting schools framework, which was around curriculum teaching and learning, organization ethos and environment and partnerships. And we realized a few things that yes, it was about curriculum teaching and learning, but it was bigger, it was about professional practice. It was about how we showed up in the classroom, out of the classroom, with parents, all of that sort of stuff. But if there were things in the policy process, ethos, and even the physical environment of the school, and in those days, for example, the school counselor might have been, you know, in the only office over in that section of the yard. And if kid was seen walking in that direction, they were stigmatized straight away. Yeah. So the physical environment plays a role. And then the recognition of partnerships that schools were never ever set up to do at all, even though we're being asked to do more and more. So, what were the partnerships that would support the professional practice that we wanted to see? But there was a nuance to that. It was what were the internal partnerships and what were the external partnerships that were needed? And Trevor, in his evaluation, came up with I don't think this is the best terms, but a type A, a type B, and a type C school, right? And it was really just around those three areas. Um, where might the school need to start? And sometimes it's not with more professional learning. Sometimes it's sitting down and looking at the structures and the processes that are in place and how that's playing out in the classroom or the staff room or yeah. Hold off on the professional learning until we start to restructure that. Other schools, it was yes, do the professional learning, and they would the practice would bounce off those things, and they'd then go, okay, now we're gonna have to work on the policies and making sure this is sustainable. And if the leadership team leaves, it's still there in the structures and the processes of what's happening, and we can explain why that's happening. So there's a there's the individual well-being ripple that we get from having these conversations, and there's the organizational strategies that we can put in place to grow them, sustain them, and pass them on.

SPEAKER_02 36:19

Thanks to Family-Based Solutions, a charitable organization that aims to end the cycle of abuse in families and to repair relationships using the solution-focused brief therapy method. They offer counseling services, support groups, solution-focused training, online support, and global leadership to those who need it most. Learn more at FamilyBasedSolutions.org. Thanks to our sponsor, the Canadian Center for Brief Coaching, the CCBC provides workplace training programs, coaching and consulting to organizations across various sectors worldwide, all with solution-focused coaching as a fundamental educational framework. For more, visit academia.com. That's PRacademia.com.

SPEAKER_01 37:15

And again, it kind of something that we've noticed at Beach and was, and this is something that's kind of evolved over the years of solution folks being there, but it is actually kind of myself and the other solution folks practitioners that making us really visible and being very becoming the norm that um that students kind of walk towards that room, you know, that to the point that it's like, oh, can I bring my mate? You know, I think he'd benefit from a solution focused conversation. And that that's because it's kind of rippled out across. Um and and yeah, that partnership because I'm but I'm external. I mean, I don't, you know, I don't work for I work, but I'm very much part of the school community. So it is it's a partnership. Um and I think actually it's really you know so interesting listening to what you're saying because I feel like actually it's those small sort of tweaks around the physical and the partnerships that's actually probably made even more difference than than the professional development, the training, you know. I mean they come together, but it's yeah. And and you know, I another question is where's a place to start for school leaders? You know, there's so much in what you've shared, you know, and obviously for Vicky and I, this is just like, you know, make some well, I'm speaking for you here, Vicky, but it's definitely making my heart sing, you know, and and really inspiring in the things that you're sharing with us. Um, but yeah, what would for our our school leaders or anybody from educational kind of communities, where is a good place to start, Jason?

SPEAKER_03 39:08

Where are you at? And if I can just add, Tara, if I can just add, you know, you spoke, Jason, so beautifully about resilience. How do we tap into that resilience?

SPEAKER_00 39:26

Okay, well, let's start with the first part of the question. You

Start Where You Are Listening

SPEAKER_00 39:30

start where you're at, you start where you're at and you start listening where you're at. Um so one of the activities I'll often suggest for leaders is to take Hey Sun Moon's dialogic orientation quadrants, yeah. And um sit in some meetings. Just sit in some meetings and map where the conversation's happening. Is this a preferred future piece? Is this a resourceful past piece? Is this a troubled past or problem past conversation, or is this a dreaded future conversation? And they will bounce around, but you'll notice where people are getting stuck and which agenda items they're getting stuck on. And they become the hot topics. And you've got choices then. You can work with what's working and the topics that are flowing, or you can start to ask, so what would we like to be happening instead? And just watch one once you've I call I call um the dialogic orientation quadrants the listening compass. Because I imagine that big map that I explained to you before is kind of the map, and you need a compass to navigate what's there. And actually, we just um uh there'll be another one of our podcasts go up shortly with um a lovely guy who uses solution focus in adventure therapy, and he talks about low visibility environments and getting a triangulation, and your compass is absolutely key, and your map's really key on that. So um thinking about thinking about or listening really closely to where conversations are headed, whether it's with individuals or with groups, and that's part of listening for what's not just what's wanted, but what's being called for. Yeah. And when you've done that, then you might get an idea of what the next step might be. Don't put too much pressure on yourself to change too much too soon. Now, what was the resilience piece?

SPEAKER_03 41:38

How do we tap into the the resilience? So, you know, here we have staff members who, you know, many of whom at one time or another are experiencing burnout. And yet we know that they have resilience. We know that there is a lot that is working for them, and that they're accessing this resilience on a daily basis, otherwise, they would not be able to manage so they're managing. So, how do we tap into that? How do we celebrate that with them?

SPEAKER_05 42:22

I think that's a really good question.

SPEAKER_00 42:25

Um for me, it was helping to see schools as um people talk about complex adaptive systems. I don't I call I I talk about complex relational systems. There's just relationships within relationships within relationships. And I love what you said there about they are managing. It's just that sometimes they can't see themselves managing. And this is where a solution-focused conversation is so important because the future hasn't happened yet. And even just asking someone, so what would you like to be happening instead? To answer that question, they have to draw on their resourceful past. Because the future hasn't happened yet, you don't have the language for what's out in the future yet. You've got to use the language that you have, and they start to talk about things that they'd like to see in the future, which must exist somewhere. And I think this is the magic of a solution-focused conversation. It's that um I'll often get people to look around the room and I'll give them 15 seconds, you know, and I'll give them a countdown. You've got to spot as many red things as possible. And we'll get down to 10, you know, and then I'll go five, four, three, and I'll say, okay, if you've got a number in mind, and they're all ready to tell you how many red things they saw, and then you say, How many green things did you see? Don't look now. And that is the your reticular activating system. That is what a solution focused conversation does so well. If you can describe a preferred future from multiple relational perspectives in detail. You have to draw on your resourceful past. Or what's working, even just a little bit, those exceptions to the problem to describe that situation, which means you get to walk out of that conversation without noticing more of the preferred future already happening. It's like I'll say in training, you know, I've got four kids, and whenever my wife Victoria told me she was pregnant, what did I see? Strollers, baby on board signs, you know, pregnant women. They were always in my world, but now they were front and center of my world. And if we can help people articulate a preferred future, and it doesn't have to be a distant one, three years, you know, it would what what would you like to be telling me next week when we get together? And what difference would it make if you were telling me those sorts of things?

SPEAKER_05 44:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:57

Um, I'm just trying to think. I think it was Aisha uh from Family Based Solutions that wrote an article on miracle moments. Yeah. Just those micro moments and helping people think about or see themselves in their story differently. On Anton Stellman said, like I've done so many podcasts now that I've got all these people in mind. So if I'm dropping now, I'm not dropping names for the sake of dropping names, it's people like Anton said at the end of the podcast we did with him, he said, it's an absolute privilege to be in a room, and people who have worked with each other for 25 years come in and you're asking them different questions, solution-focused ones, and they meet each other anew. They meet a version of each other that they've never met before in 25 years of working with each other. These are the things, these are the bits that stick.

SPEAKER_03 45:57

Yeah. Yes. Yeah, I love that, Jason. Just changing changing the narrative in the moment. That's effectively what's happening there.

SPEAKER_00 46:09

Yeah, yeah. That's a great way to describe it. Thank you. That was a lot shorter than what I said.

SPEAKER_01 46:19

Wow. Thank you so much for such a uh wonderful, um, inspiring and thought-provoking uh conversation. Can't get my words out, conversation, J. There's so much. Um, yeah, really, really, really looking forward to to sharing

Tools Links And Farewell

SPEAKER_01 46:40

this. I think there's just so much that people can take from it. And I know we definitely have. And um yeah, is there anything else that you would want to say or share as your final comments before we bring our conversation to a close?

SPEAKER_00 46:57

Um thank you very, very much for the invitation. It's been an absolute joy, and uh, my encouragement for people would be um listen for what's working and start there. Yeah, brilliant.

SPEAKER_03 47:16

Thank you, Jason. Thank thank you for a brilliant conversation today, um, a wonderful time, and uh your generosity to join us and to share your experience with us and your expertise. Um, and we would like to uh post any links or resources that you might have that we could post on the podcast episode. Is there anything in particular that you would like to highlight right now?

SPEAKER_00 47:46

Umbe we can put um, and I'm assuming Hayesun will say yes to this, maybe we can put uh just a little PDF that I use of the dialogic orientation quarters, it's the compass, so that people would download it and go and sit in a meeting and actually listen to where the conversation's happening.

SPEAKER_03 48:04

That's great. That'd be wonderful. Um, and we will certainly um we could have a link to uh your business, the inactive solution, and so uh and we can also uh include um a link to the um Toward Solutions podcast, your podcast. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 48:26

That would be wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 48:26

Maybe your cafe as well. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 48:31

Hey, if anyone finds themselves in New Lambton, Australia, come and go.

SPEAKER_05 48:38

Thanks, Jason. Yes, all right, thanks so much, guys.

SPEAKER_01 48:42

And thank you to our listeners as well. Take care.

SPEAKER_02 48:48

Our sponsor, the Instructional Coaching Group, is the global destination for coaching and education, grounded in more than 25 years of research, focused on improving teaching, strengthening leadership, and increasing student success. The Instructional Coaching Group partners with schools and systems worldwide to build sustainable coaching practices, to support educators, and improve outcomes for students. Learn more at instructionalcoaching.com.