Solution Focused Schools: An Interview with Cynthia Franklin

In this episode, we are joined by Dr. Cynthia Franklin, an internationally recognized leader and one of the 100 Most Influential Contemporary Social Work Faculty worldwide. Highly regarded as a premier authority on Solution-Focused Brief Therapy (SFBT), Cynthia has spent over three decades shaping evidence-based mental health practice, authoring 16+ books and 200+ publications, and serving as Editor-in-Chief of Oxford University Press’s Encyclopedia of Social Work. She currently serves as the Stiernberg/Spencer Family Professor in Mental Health at UT Austin’s Steve Hicks School of Social Work, with a courtesy appointment in the Department of Psychiatry at Dell Medical School. In this great conversation, Cynthia shares how SFBT in schools works and becomes sustainable when young peoples' needs and wants are prioritized and when leaders support a whole-school approach.

https://socialwork.utexas.edu/directory/cynthia-g-s-franklin/

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Work Collaborative, a not-for-profit movement restoring confidence in schools worldwide. Based on the best-selling book Change Starts Here by Shane Leaning and Efraim Lerner, Work Collaborative helps schools lead change from within instead of relying on external solutions. The collaborative’s approach trusts that teachers, leaders, parents and students have the capability to solve their own challenges when given the right support. If you're interested in solution-focused approaches that build internal capacity, join this global movement of educators at workcollaborative.com.

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The Canadian Centre for Brief Coaching (CCBC) - Founded by Dr. Haesun Moon, is a company based in Toronto, Ontario, Canada.  The CCBC provides competency-based workplace training programs as well as coaching and consulting services to organizations across sectors, both in Canada and across the globe. Since its inception as a research body and think tank comprised of graduate students, subject-matter experts and community partners, the CCBC has evolved to provide programs and services designed  with Solution Focused Coaching as the fundamental framework. Go to: www.pracademia.com 

 Family Based Solutions is a charitable organization based in the UK and founded by Ayse Adil and Joe Lettieri. They offer counselling services, support groups, solution focused training, online support and global leadership. They work collaboratively to end the cycle of abuse in families and to repair relationships.  Using Solution Focused Brief Therapy (SFBT), FBS gives families full control of their healing, alowing families to take small and manageable steps toward their bests hopes. Go to https://familybasedsolutions.org.uk/

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:24

Our sponsor, the Instructional Coaching Group, is the global destination for coaching and educators, grounded in more than 25 years of research focused on improving teaching, strengthening leadership, and increasing student success. The Instructional Coaching Group partners with schools and systems worldwide to build sustainable coaching practices that support educators

Sponsor And Opening Welcome

SPEAKER_02 0:46

and improve outcomes for students. Learn more at instructionalcoaching.com.

SPEAKER_03 0:54

Hi everyone, uh, this is Vicky Esabag, and here we are with Tara Gretten and Cynthia Franklin today on this hot summer's day. And um I just want to um uh welcome Cynthia. Thank you so much for coming and joining us here today, Cynthia, on the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

My pleasure, you know, to be here, you know, and watch you a lot in the social media and very impressed with the with the podcast.

SPEAKER_04 1:22

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:24

Thank you. Well, you know, we usually start um by reading out the bio, and um I I just um Cynthia said, Vicki, feel free to pare down the bio. And I did pare it down a bit, but honestly, um I just felt it was so important to uh to include the elements, um, many of the elements in the bio because truly, Cynthia, um you have been doing

Cynthia Franklin’s Work In Context

SPEAKER_03 1:53

some incredible work over the years in the field of social work and solution focus, and and uh as a prolific researcher and writer, and uh honestly, it is our honor and and our privilege to have you join us today. Um I'm going to read the bio out. So, Dr. Cynthia Franklin is an internationally recognized scholar, educator, trainer, and clinician. Among many awards and recognitions, she was named among the hundred most influential contemporary social work faculty worldwide. Dr. Franklin's groundbreaking contributions have shaped the global development of solution-focused brief therapy, social work, and evidence-based mental health practice. Widely regarded as one of the foremost authorities on SFBT, she has devoted more than three decades to advancing research, teaching, and implementation of strengths-based interventions across educational, clinical, and community settings. Throughout her distinguished academic career, she has worked to expand access to effective care for children, adolescents, families, and underserved populations, including individuals with developmental challenges and autism spectrum disorders. Dr. Franklin serves as the Sternberg-Spencer Family Professor in Mental Health and Director of External Relations at the University of Texas at Austin, Steve Hicks School of Social Work, and holds a courtesy appointment in the Department of Psychiatry at Dell Medical School. Dr. Franklin has authored more than 200 scholarly publications, including over 16 books, which have influenced scholarship, policy, and professional practice. She is a highly sought-after international speaker, trainer, and consultant, and holds many additional leadership positions, including as editor-in-chief of the Encyclopedia of Social Work, published by Oxford University Press. And let's not forget her continued dedication to promote evidence-based research as a legacy member of the Solution Focused Brief Therapy Association's Research Committee. Welcome, Cynthia.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

Thank you very much, uh, Vicki and Tara. It's really my privilege to be able to speak to you today about something that's near and dear to my heart, and that's solution-focused brief therapy in schools.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Yeah, Cynthia, it really is such an honor for us to have you here and really grateful that you accepted the invitation. And you know, I it's hard not to be, you know, a bit sort of starstruck, really.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

Being known for both of us and which means I've been in the field a long time.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

Well, you in the time that you've been in the field, you've done some incredible work that we're really excited to have the opportunity to talk to you about, you know, and I know for both Vicky and I, your work in schools um has, you know, made a real difference to our work. And and you know, coming from a social work background as well, I know for me as a social worker, you know, it's again a real privilege to be able to speak to you about that too. So our first question is, um, yeah, we're just kind of really curious to hear about your journey with solution-focused practice in schools and what first drew you to bringing this approach into educational settings and what has kept you passionate about it.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

Well, thanks for the question, Tara and Vicky.

Why Education Is Personal

SPEAKER_00 5:33

And I do want to say it's, you know, I'm so glad to have you guys in the field. Y'all are really the the the forward voice uh of this, the work that I've been been doing. And, you know, you know, what what really drew me, you know, to uh to the work in the in the schools, you know, like any uh I think social worker, you know, clinician, practitioner, helping professional, you know, your work is usually personal and professional. You know, it goes you know both ways with that. And so I had a really deep conviction that the best way I could ever help young people was be to help them get their education. And that really started in my family because my dad was uh, you know, came from the Native American communities, and uh he was a uh cotton farmer in um in Oklahoma. And you know, actually my family um, you know, were had um doctors in it and people like that, but they lost all of that during the Great Depression in the 1930s in the United States. And so, you know, he preached to me all the time, you know, that get your education. That's the best way, because he was totally illiterate, illiterate. He could not read or write, you know, having you know worked on the farm, you know, his whole life. And so he had a deep conviction about what education meant. And I lived that out of my own experience, you know. I had a lot of influential teachers, people that really, you know, helped me um, you know, see that education was important and getting my education was really meaningful. So I did really believe that helping young people in school, you know, was very important. And when I worked with students in schools, I could see that they did not get that kind of positive message all the time when they were in the schools. They really struggled. It was like, you know, uh, it wasn't that the young people left the schools, the schools left the young people. And that we really needed to create different kinds of schools. And um, I did that early on in my career, and that was even my dissertation research, and I was trained as a family therapist and was drawn to solution-focused breed therapy, and was you know, trained in it, you know, at the Milwaukee clinic with Enzu Kimberg and Steve Schaezer. And so I just really got on that path uh to help uh young people and help develop school programs that had a solution-focused, more you know, resource-based orientation to help young people, you know, develop their um their preferred features, their outcomes they wanted, and you know, to create a different kind of environment around young people so that they could succeed and take advantage of what I believe was the path to success, and that is getting your education. And that meant a lot to me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:26

Yeah. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 8:29

No, you could you can just you know, I I loved what you said, where you said the schools left the young people. The young people didn't leave the schools, but the schools left the young people. Can you elaborate a little bit on that?

SPEAKER_00 8:45

Yeah, um, just in my work with young people in schools, you know, what I saw is a lot of young people that really they had difficulties, you know, and they struggled in school programs. Um, they maybe these issues they had though that were related to their

When Schools Leave Young People

SPEAKER_00 9:00

family or related to mental health challenges they had, or related to even, you know, coming from more impoverished backgrounds or different cultural backgrounds than than their teachers in schools uh really offered to them. And so the school was not flexible. It was not, it did not draw on the strengths of these young people. It did not understand these young people, it didn't really know how to provide the right kind of environment where they they could really excel and succeed and where their where they their strengths could be realized. You know, I believe that they all have strengths, gifts, resources in which we can draw on as part of the solution-focused practices, and they didn't really tune in on this. Instead, they, you know, just uh kept doing their practices that often were quite rigid and authoritarian, and they didn't really include uh the voices of young people. Of course, this is not every school, but it was many schools, and so young people would drop out of these schools there or they would, you know, leave the schools and not get their education, and that compromised their uh independent living, their success is certainly in our society in the United States, you know, it's important to have a good education. People that have good education make more money, you know, they do better in life overall, and so you know, I just noticed that, you know, working working with them. And um I really believed that we could create a better school system. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:27

Yes. I mean, Cynthia, so much that you say speaks to so much of what we're really, really passionate about and really couldn't agree more with you. And I suppose that um, you know, through um uh my own experience over the years, you know, it seems to be getting easier, but sort of in the beginning for me, which wasn't really, it was sort of 2010, um, it seemed quite it was it took some time for people to to sort of understand and to see the usefulness of an approach like solution focused and thinking about how do we have these types of uh conversations with young people, how do we do this in the school environment? Um, and so I'm really curious about how did you do it in the beginning?

SPEAKER_00 11:13

Well, that's a good question. Of course, in the beginning I worked more like in like in the counseling practice in schools, you know, where we were, you know, uh, you know, pulling kids out of the classrooms. We did research on it too, and um, you know, and would do the solution-focused practices with the counselors and um it it as social workers in

Starting Small With Interested Teachers

SPEAKER_00 11:31

schools and and mental health professionals in schools, but I quickly saw that you know that that wasn't going to have the greatest impact, you know, on young young people. I'd worked a lot um, you know, in different settings and youth services, you know, as a therapist, you know, like I worked in residential treatment centers and I worked with psychiatry practices and things like in hospitals and things like that. And I knew you had to have some kind of, you know, uh, you know, therapeutic type of environment around young people. It couldn't just be some talking in the session and then you would just send them back uh to the same environment. I mean, that would be true in the the family too, in working with the family to help the family uh when you're working with a young person. So I began to see that if we pulled some teachers into it, for example, you know, like and got teachers involved in the practices. And we started, you know, not with Garza, but with other schools and, you know, just getting them involved, just a pod of teachers in a school, you know, that would be willing to learn and do some professional development on it. And then I I could see that that really made a big difference in when the uh social workers that were delivering the mental health counseling in schools, if they involved the teacher more, if they were collaborative with them uh and helped them also, you know, get in the conversation. So it was really like a one-on-one by interested people that and teachers that because teachers really do care, many teachers. That's why they get in the field. I I remember um Enzu Kimberg even talking about to teachers about why did you become a teacher? You know, what caused you to be a teacher when she was, you know, working with me in schools and and you know, and they would, you know, she would get them talking about their story, you know, about how they really wanted to make a difference in young people's lives. And so we would get grab teachers, you know, out of a high school that, you know, that had that kind of passion and help them remember and teach them and the skills of solution-focused conversations. They're not therapists, but we could use the language solution-focused conversations, and we would teach them how how to do that. So I started there and then finally I got an opportunity to um to you know actually do a whole school, uh, Garza High School in Austin, Texas, that was really looking to implement the solution-focused approach. It was the principal that wanted to do it. And to make a long story short, she saw the school social workers doing

Building A Whole-School Approach At Garza

SPEAKER_00 14:00

it and making such a huge difference. And she just said, I want that, whatever that is you're doing, talking to those students. I want that and I want everyone to have it. And they that this one school social worker said, Well, if you really want it, then you should get Cynthia Franklin at UT Austin, at the University of Texas at Austin School of Social Work, because she uh, you know, is an expert in it and working in schools. And so they called me and I got a chance to, you know, then do a larger training, got a grant from the Hogg Foundation for Middleton Health to give the grantor, you know, um, you know, credit, you know, and they uh made it possible for us to train everyone, you know, on it then. And so that's the way we first had a model school then, you know, that we we could do. But it just starts, you know, Tara and Vicky, just just you know, you gotta start in a school where the people are, where their needs are, you know, and to start a one-on-one, just anyone that's interested, you know, in learning and um, you know, try to, you know, bridge with uh the principal to support the work. And you know, when you do that, then you can get more and more people. It's just like a team, you know, like getting a team and uh, you know, around it. And then that's that's how we started getting it into the school. So we would teach them, you know, the the solution focused, you know, we teach them how to ask the miracle question, how to, you know, focus on the preferred future, how to, you know, draw out the strengths and competencies of this of a student, and and we teach them to to speak that way. So it's it's amazing, really. You know, it's it sounds so simple, you know, what words can do. You know, um Steve DeShazer said words are originally magic, but I kind of think that words are very powerful and creative. You know, words are very powerful and creative, and they can just do a do amazing things.

SPEAKER_03 15:54

Um can you give us an example, something that stands out for you as uh work that they were doing in Garza uh that was solution focused and that was uh being applied into the classroom?

SPEAKER_00 16:10

Yeah, there, yeah, there are so many, you know, different examples. But um, you know, one of the things they did at Garza is they adopted, um, this is very programmatic, yeah, but they adopted the SMART goals and then they had a competency-based curriculum so that students could, you know, actually move toward their goals.

Classroom Tools That Make It Practical

SPEAKER_00 16:32

And so then they would have teachers meet with the students and have these solution-focused conversations that would, you know, talk about their goals, you know, where they were on their goals. And use the scaling questions and, you know, all kinds of you know, solution-focused techniques with it. So that's one of the things that they did that was, you know, very programmatic. I think it made a made a made a big difference. And uh, you know, they would uh they would really approach students differently in the classroom. I mean, there's so many case good cases of it and in the whole school environment. Um, we wrote a book about Garza and this program, it has a lot of cases in it, solution focused breathed therapy and alternative schools. And we wrote a second one that just came out from Garza that has these cases in it too, but it uh it's called Solution Focused Breed Therapy Toolkit for Schools, and it has a lot of the uh things that they do. But one of the one of the things I noticed just you know, working with them in the in the classroom is they just knew how to, you know, allow students to um do their work and support them. And when they would even have like meltdowns and things like that, they would support them, they would help them, you know, through that type of process. They would, you know, ask them questions like, you know, well, you know, if they said they couldn't do math or something, well, you know, tell me a tie time that you had did a little bit better math. You know, they would just talk like that to the to the students and um and just use the talking in the classroom. Just it's actually in the classroom. In the early days, we actually had them keep the questions on cards in the classroom and you know, before they knew it really well, and they would have these little cards, you know, they're so they could look at the cards and remember uh the questions. They put them in a group and you know, they would ask the miracle question, you know, and then they'd have them go around and do like round robin and you know, answer the answer the question um in in the group like that. They would do things, things like that. And they worked as a team. That's the other thing they had uh that's really was really powerful. Um, early in the um work, we actually had almost like reflecting teams in there where one student was struggling, but they would have an advocate appointed to them. Uh, you know, uh that could be a teacher or anyone that they related to, they had a relationship with, and they'd bring them in and they'd just process it using the solution-focused conversations and to work through the issues. Later, they developed a whole team where they would bring the students, you know, that were struggling and put them on the screen, and then they would think of, you know, ways to approach them and you use and they would talk about them and in the team meeting in a solution-focused conversation too. That's important because that's at another level, you know, so that they would be saying things like, you know, you know, tell me um, you know, some uh strengths or resources that he's brought to the classroom, and they would be talking about, you know, things that they had done that worked, you know, already with the student. And they would, you know, they would just be chatting about, you know, uh what the students' goals are and what they really want, you know, what they want to be different in their lives and um things like that. And then they would bring it back, you know, into the into their classrooms and into the into the counseling, you know, with the students. So, you know, you see how this works. It's just like a um I called it a um transdisciplinary team because we really took the language of uh solution focused therapy, which was in social work and counseling, and you know, gave it in the hands of everyone that you worked with students in that school. Yeah, so those are a few examples, and they're just amazing.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

There are others if you you know a few examples of doing the the how they did the program and how they how they did uh the the solution focused conversations I can't remember where who this this quote comes from, but it's just come to mind as you were talking and talking about language as well and about conversation and it's like change the conversation and you begin to change what becomes possible.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

Yes, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, um, you know, it's uh it's like I said, the words are originally magic, like Steve said, and they're I think they're very powerful and creative, and it's it's collab, it's in that collaborative conversation. We call that co-construction, of course, and in solution focus brief therapy. But being able to do that and know how to do that is is really how

Language, Trust And Co-Construction

SPEAKER_00 21:16

to use language in a purposeful way that's helpful to people, and that's exactly what they do. They they had the language as a tool, and you know, there's a lot of evidence-based mental health interventions in schools, and they're usually curriculums, you know, the like the tier one interventions and curriculums and stuff. But the really beauty of solution-focused therapy is that you know, you don't need a curriculum, you just need to know how to do the languaging with the students, and you can do it anywhere. That can be in the hall when they're having a problem, that can be on the phone if you need to talk to their parent. It can be, you know, when they first come in in the morning. And um the one of the principal of Garza High School used to say, one of the most powerful things you can do in the morning if a student comes late and they are appear to the attendance officer, you know, basically we have to check in with the tendons and everything. They say to that student, I'm really glad to see you today. Instead of, you know, berating them or, you know, you know, uh correcting them for being late.

SPEAKER_04 22:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:21

Yeah. Makes me think of Dan Siegel's Connect Before You Correct. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

So, you know, that that's right. You know, SFBT, you know, is a very um, I think the co-construction process is extremely relational model. You know, it's really about getting agreement with the clients, getting cooperation with the clients. That's what NZU taught me and when I learned, you know, that's very powerful, you know, you know, because uh if you don't can't get the cooperation, the agreement with your client, then, you know, or your student in our situations of working in schools, you know, you're not going to be able to, you know, um, you know, guide or influence or you know, do interventions that are helpful, that they're gonna cooperate with with you. So it's because we also believe that, as you know, um, you know, that really the the um the solution is in the client. It's uh client-deriven, it's client-directed, and you know, and that's what we taught those teachers. And they uh found that to be very powerful. And they would say, they would say, I do this with my family, I do this in my own life, you know, this has changed my my life. It works with my son, or you know, or something like that. You know, it was kind of inspiring to hear them say that. And uh what I hear a lot of uh social workers or counselors or teachers say too is it takes a lot of pressure off of you because people think they have to solve the problems. And we, you know, we're helpers or you know, or you know, professionals that are supposed to solve problems of people. And when you take that type of problem-solving lens like that, there's a lot of pressure on you to come up with something that's gonna work. And also to blame the client, you know, blame the person, you know, blame the student, you know, if it doesn't, if they don't change or it doesn't work, you know, where when you take this client-driven, you know, comes from the client, comes from the person, you know, kind of um viewpoint, then you know that really the solution is in this conversation and it's really inside this this student. And um I my experience, young people are amazing, you know, they're amazing in coming up with their own solution.

SPEAKER_03 24:33

Yeah. And of course, what a beautiful training for teachers to understand that not knowing stance. Yes to right and to to back off from having to be the all-knowing, the fixer, and and all of that, which is so ingrained uh in the teacher's role. And so um, yeah, the beauty of just saying, hey, I I don't have to know, I I don't have to know the answer, and I don't have to solve the problem, um, is I I think uh very liberating for a teacher.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

I've been told that many times. And you know, what we have taught them at uh taught them in the schools is that you don't have to know the answer, you just have to know the question. You know, you just have to, you know, know how to, you know, listen, you know, uh, you know, well to the student and you know the and no question, no the questions to ask. And um one of the things that sometimes teachers ask or different people ask, say, well, what if the student says, I don't know, and so we just ask another question, just or just let them have that space to think and you know process that you don't have to know because that would make people very anxious. Well, then I have to do something else. But really, you know, um, you know, it is empowering to know that and to believe, it's a really a belief that people can change, you know, that these students have the capabilities and capacities to change. And, you know, if we can provide the environment and write kind of you know, experience for them, that they will definitely show that to us.

SPEAKER_02 26:10

Thanks to our sponsor, the Canadian Center for Brief Coaching, the C C BC provides workplace training programs, coaching and consulting to organizations across various sectors worldwide, all with solution-focused coaching as the fundamental educational framework. For more, visit academia.com. That's

Sponsor Break

SPEAKER_02 26:32

eracademia.com. Thanks to Family Based Solutions, a charitable organization that aims to end the cycle of abuse in families and to repair relationships using the solution-focused brief therapy method. They offer counseling services, support groups, solution-focused training, online support, and global leadership to those who need it most. Learn more at familybasedsolutions.org.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

What do you think schools can learn from creating spaces, you know, from what the Gaza School has done? What can other schools learn from the Gaza School about, you know, creating spaces for students to be active in co-creating their own learning journey?

SPEAKER_00 27:24

Yeah, well, that's a really good question.

Flexible Learning And Alternative Models

SPEAKER_00 27:26

I think a lot of uh schools could really learn that you know, that there are many different ways to to for young people to learn, you know, and when they but they really open the space and you know put them in more of a competency-based kind of learning model like they have at the Garza school, you know, that they will figure out ways to do that. You know, like for example, you know, Garza, you know, had a lot of blended or integrated curriculums, you know, at one point they even had one where they did forensic sciences, but they were integrating, you know, the sciences and different kinds of curriculum material that you normally would teach in the classroom, but they learned it more in this kind of applied way. And the students would, you know, get very involved in that, you know, in you know, structuring those courses. Uh, I think they also learned that they uh some students like to learn online, you know. They, you know, they had a big online uh program in presence. They helped the school district that way with the online programs. And um, you know, there's different kinds of ways like that that you know that students can can learn. And the big thing I think that they could you could take away from a school like that is that um, you know, there it's good for school districts to have alternative education models, you know, that which where they can allow for um, you know, students, you know, that uh don't fit necessarily into just the the you know the the the peg, you know, the round peg and the round hole kind of thing where they maybe are more creative or have and would prefer a different way. Or maybe they just need that because of their life experiences, you know, because of the because they're homeless or because they have family experiences that don't allow for them to um you know keep a regular schedule, you know, in a school the same way that they demand, uh, sometimes in the in the educational systems in the United States at least. So things like that, the flexibility, I guess as I would call it, you know, uh flexibility of learning and seeing that you that you really can engage students and it's not helpful and useful to just say these students are at risk, you know, we really don't know how to help them, or you know, they're not gonna be able to be helped in, you know, in this in in education, or they're not good at math, or they're not, you know, good act in academia or whatever, um, like that, you know, not um, you know, labeling students that way, but you know, you know, instead of really working with the student, I guess, really is what I saw, you know, that they could take, you know, to see what would work for them. You know, we had a student that, you know, one time he just muttered uh he was on the spectrum and he just would mutter like Japanese. He just wanted to study that all the time, you know, and the schools just didn't really know how to help him. And uh he came over to Garza and uh they took him and they accommodated to his style

Strengths First: A Student Story

SPEAKER_00 30:34

of of of talking and communicating and learning. And after a while, they one of the teachers learned, you know, because you sometimes you asked ask uh in solution focus, yes, what are you good at? What are you interested in, you know, things like that. And so he learned, you know, that he really liked videos, video, you know, technology, and they had a video class. And so they got him to come out of the video out of the you know, back, you know, room muttering Japanese and stuff, and start participating, you know, in the school with a you know, because with in this video class. And then it wasn't long, and I would see him, he would be like in the, you know, we were like be like in-service trains, and he'd be there and he'd have his video and he'd be doing it, he'd be talking to the teachers. You know, so it's really amazing to see that kind of change. But that's based on, you know, really uh working with the strengths and and and being flexible, you know, and and looking for what will really work with each individual student. And so I guess the individualization of Garza too, which is hard to do sometimes in large schools, you know, but that's really important to thing to take away. Any teacher can think about that that way, you know, approaching students with different learning needs that way, I think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:56

Yeah, I guess that's just so, so valuable. Um, you know, there's been so much research and so much conversation over the years around differentiated instruction. But not really about differentiated instruction, I think. You know, as solution-focused leaders and practitioners, we know that it's really about honoring the individual. Um uh and uh not focusing so much on the instructional piece as much as on really just trying to understand who that young person is. Um can you tell us a little bit about your work, the work that you've been doing with uh young people on the spectrum, young people uh with autism?

SPEAKER_00 32:38

Yeah, it's uh it's been really a great honor to do this work. And, you know, it's really, really meaningful to me. I hadn't exactly worked in that space. I always worked with kids with a lot of uh, you know, uh different issues or comorbidities and, you know, and from you know, mental health, substance use, you know, social problems, all kinds of things like that, but not necessarily

SFBT Research With Autistic Youth

SPEAKER_00 33:01

just focusing on on uh um youth and young adults with um and transition age use with um uh autism. But we started getting a lot of those students over in Garza more. You know, there's actually more over there than there ever has been in the in the past. And um I have a colleague, uh Dr. Uh Sandy Megania, and she's like an expert in this area. And we started having conversations about how she thought, you know, and that solution focus would be an amazing intervention for this population. There's not a lot of mental health interventions, especially working individually with a student. A lot of them are really geared toward, you know, the parents or changing the environment or you know, things like that, but not many where the person can really explore their own identity, their own individual goals, you know, their own, you know, things that they want that would help them you know in a mental health therapy. And so we started talking about that. And so we got some research funding to do some feasibility studies on it, which what that means is we're first collecting the data, bringing some um, you know, people into the studies, and you know, we did a um a couple of years of that, uh, and it's and we got good results with it. One of the things we found was that, you know, that you know, the young people would actually come to the sessions, you know, that's important in a feasibility study. You know, they they would come to the we offered them four sessions, and then when we interviewed them, they said they'd like to have more sessions, and so now we offer them six sessions of SFBT, and they like that and they really liked uh exploring their strengths and their identity. They thought it was different. Um, you know, they they made um changes on measurement instruments too that we we gave to them. So we, you know, were very and and you know uh happy uh to see that you know we were getting some good results with it and that these young people really benefited, you know, from the solution focused uh you know therapy. So what we did is we now have gotten a large randomized clinical trial, you know, which is really important for studying the efficacy of intervention to see if it really works. And we're just starting up that study now. It's it's quite large, you know. It was an $850,000 trial, you know, that we have on uh being able to work with uh adolescents and transition age youth uh with autism. So uh we're doing that. We hired a full-time therapist. I have a full-time therapist now, and he's wonderful, you know, uh solution-focused, trained social worker, you know, and he's gonna see our clients, and we'll probably have some backup, you know, therapists too. So as we had to have a large sample, we didn't want to overwhelm him with that. But it's um it's really great. It's really wonderful. And we you know, we've been able to see that, you know, that um that you know, these clients, you know, that have that are on the spectrum, they can make uh, you know, some amazing, you know, kinds of of changes, you know, to doing the solution focused breed therapy. And we've learned a lot of creative ways to communicate with them as well, you know, using uh using solution focused brief therapy. So we adapted the intervention a lot and have have it now in a training manual. And we um offered a training, that's the other thing to therapists, because that's a part of our work is to try to get more therapists trained so they could deliver SFBT uh to people that uh have autism or autistic individuals. And um, I found in my work too, they just don't mind just saying, you know, I I'm a person, I'm I'm an autistic person. That's the first person language instead of the third person language. A lot of people have autism, prefer the first person language. Um and we're not taught that in social work, but that's the what they prefer, you know, with it. But uh when we offered this training, we had 500 therapists that signed up for it. So there's a real need, yeah, you know, um a real need to train therapists, you know. And so I what we're trying to do is to lay down the groundwork so that in the research, so we can see if it actually is helpful and useful and works, and you know what you have to do to make it more useful and helpful and work and you know, through these adaptations. And so that's what that's what our work's doing. So it's just really special um kind of research.

SPEAKER_01 37:41

Yeah, that's really, really exciting and as as a solution focused practitioner in schools.

SPEAKER_00 37:49

That's something that I would it's gonna be very helpful to the practitioners in schools, I think. And um, you know, and anyone, you know, really anyone that wants to do the, you know, like one-on-one counseling, or you know, we're uh in this new stud study or RCT, we're going to um blend the one-on-one with some with the some of the parents and family, because we just found we had to do that, you know, just to just because the peop the client wanted it or just because it was important to involve the parent because they, you know, it's like in solution because they were the customer, they were really the ones that, you know, really wanted the um wanted the counseling, you know, for their youth. And so we, you know, intervene with uh, you know, them too. Uh the th therapist would pull them into the into the room with them and stuff. So wonderful. So it's great, you know.

SPEAKER_03 38:43

It's really really important to involve the parents and uh oh, I really look forward to hearing more about how this research evolves.

SPEAKER_00 38:52

Yeah, yeah, we have it, we have it on a two-year where we'll be collecting the data, you know, for two years. And uh so and we do already have the training manual, and we're trying to decide when to release that, you know, uh, because uh we've been continuing to to improve it based on what we learned from our therapists and you know what we learned, you know, from working with the with the with the clients. And so by doing that, but you know, uh the young people, you know, taught us a lot about you know how to how how to use SFBT with them. It's just like you know, any situation, you know, if you look if you can learn a lot. And we really brought the the therapy, we brought the autism um advisory group into it. We have people, lots of really neat people on the on there too, you know, on our team, you know, we have students and we have people that have autism on there, and we have an autism advisory group that looks at the training uh intervention, you know, manual and um gives us feedback. And they gave us lots of feedback about how to adapt the intervention, you know, just in the beginning, even when we showed it to them, you know. So again, you know, you're just learning from um, you know, others that letting them be the experts.

SPEAKER_01 40:09

Yeah, yeah. And that's just so unbelievably important, isn't it? And you know, that is how the solution-focused approach, you know, came to be born that it was through observation, it was through observing practice, it was hard working within the conversations between the practitioner and the individual and the family. And and you know, that's just wonderful to hear that this manual is it's you know, it's still evolving and growing from people that are experiencing it. And um, yeah, that's yeah, incredible.

SPEAKER_00 40:45

I'm looking forward to having amazing, it's a it really is, you know. Um it's a it's definitely a a creative work, you know, in real time, you know, with the with the clients. And so you're so right, Tara, about it being, you know, born out of observation and of the interactions between, you know, client and therapists. And I think that is really at the heart of the co-construction and is at the heart of solution focus pre-therapy, too. Wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 41:15

We couldn't, I think we'll have to have like a part two because I think we're kind of moving we could talk about it. We're running out of time. So our final sort of question for you. Obviously, after you know, many, many years of working and researching and teaching solution focused practice, um, what is the one thing you wish every person working with children and young people understood about the conversations they have with them?

SPEAKER_00 41:51

Well, that's such an

What Adults Must Understand About Change

SPEAKER_00 41:53

amazing um question. And you know, I would, you know, have to say that I wish they all knew, you know, there's two things really. I guess I guess they all I wish they all knew the uh the capacity that young people have really to change. That's you know, they you know, they can totally change, like from the time they're 14 to the time they're 20 years old, they can just, you know, totally change. You know, I've seen it in the cars of high school, you know, even though they go come in one way, they go out another way. Um, you know, so that's one of the things. And the other thing is that, you know, that listening and working with the young people, that's really a sacred trust, you know, really, you know, to be able to do that. And they, you know, are so amazing to come up with their own solutions. Once they, you know, have a you know, have you at the ask about their preferred future, you know, for example, and you because you know, young people they really like to think about the future. You know, they have a long future in front of them, usually, and um, you know, and so once they have the details of that and they can think about that, they they are amazing to come up with their own uh ways of running their life. And if I had to say a third thing, I would say that, you know, young people don't always change in the way that adults or we think that they will. You know, the change can be very incremental, you know, it can be, you know, very like, I can't believe it, you know. Um, you know, I'm you know, uh remember working with a teen mom that, you know, she the the teachers and everybody wanted to get her away from this boyfriend that was abusive, you know, that was really in their mind to do it, and she wanted to marry him. And, you know, and so she said, I'm you know, gonna, I'm just gonna tell him I'm we've got to get married and stuff like that. And they're going like, no, no way, don't do that. You know, but the per the person that was running the group at that time with the um person, they they just let they went with the client, you know, and their solution to try it out and and such. And so uh what happened is when she went home and she started doing that, uh he asked his mother, and his mother said, No way you're gonna marry that girl. And she said, Well, I'm getting rid of him, you know, then. And so she broke up with him, broke up with him, and she said, I don't want to marry him anymore, I don't want to be with him anymore, you know, and all like that. So they actually the you know, the solution that they were all thinking of, you know, that she needed to get away from him, you know, actually it came out of something this teenager came up with that seemed so ill-advised, you know, so ill-advised about it. So yes as well. So they you know they do change in small ways and you know, and incremental and it and it it it you know sometimes doesn't make sense to us, but you know, you can see the see they can come up with ways to to run their lives that you know and change that we wouldn't think of.

SPEAKER_01 44:59

Yeah.

unknown 45:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:01

Belief in them, isn't it? And them having sentencing make those decisions, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:07

Yeah, it is. And you know, to try them out and you know, to let young people grow. And you know, I I had a student too that when she first learned about solution focus re-therapy, she goes, This is never gonna work, you know. So, you know, because you gotta, you know, let you know, work with those teenagers, you know, to get this solution and all that. And she said, It's amazing it works, you know. She's just amazing how that works.

SPEAKER_01 45:33

Oh, thank you so much, Cynthia. This is really an incredible uh conversation and um yeah, so much, so inspiring and so much to take from the things that you've shared with us, and I'm sure that our listeners will take so much from it too. So thank you for sharing your stories with us and inspiring us.

SPEAKER_00 45:54

Thank you so

Closing Thanks And Next Time

SPEAKER_00 45:55

much, Cynthia. Thank you. I really appreciate y'all uh featuring me on here, you know, and I love this conversation. It's really great to talk to you, and I'm sure we'll be talking again soon.

SPEAKER_04 46:06

Yes, I have wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 46:08

Thank you so much. All right. Bye-bye. Thanks to our sponsor, Work Collaborative, a not for profit movement that helps schools lead change from within. They trust that teachers, leaders, parents, and students have the capability to solve their own challenges when given the right support. Join this global movement of educators at workcollaborative.com.