The Lyric and The Light
A weekly space where faith and music meet. Each episode, we will take one song- from timeless hymns to modern worship- and pair it with the living truth of Scripture.
The Lyric and The Light
“Graves, Grace, and Gray Areas”
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A colorful idea for a Christian retreat meal got labeled “demonic,” and it forced us to ask a question most churches avoid: when does conviction protect faith, and when does it turn into control? We start with the everyday stuff Christians argue about, the words we say when we’re frustrated, the jokes we make, the shirts we wear, and why some people hear disrespect where others hear harmless humor. That quickly leads into the real story: a Dia De Los Muertos inspired Coco theme meant to honor people who served before us.
We slow down and do the work. We talk cultural context for Day of the Dead, why remembrance is not the same as worship, and how intention matters. Then we read Bible passages that point both ways: hope-filled remembrance like Hebrews 12:1 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13–14, and serious warnings like Deuteronomy 18:10–12 and Isaiah 8:19 about consulting the dead and spiritual counterfeits. We also unpack the relational side of it: how Matthew 18 calls us to go to each other first, and how spiritual language can become a weapon when people talk down from a soapbox.
From Halloween to Easter eggs to “worldly” art, we name what’s open-handed and what’s closed-fisted. The center stays clear: Jesus Christ, crucified and risen, salvation by grace through faith. To bring it home, we talk Ezekiel 37, the song “Rattle,” and what resurrection power looks like right now through healing, sobriety, restored health, and joy returning to places that felt dead.
If this conversation challenges you, share it with a friend, subscribe, and leave a review, then tell us: where have you seen conviction bring life rather than division?
Cold Open And Last Episode Callback
SPEAKER_00Before we start.
SPEAKER_03Too late. We already started. Welcome back to the Lyric of Light We Did. Oh, if you stuck around for the end. I'm gonna get someone else to control this previous episode, you would have heard the blooper reel. Dion was popping off, and so I had to just keep it going. So I turned the recording back on and didn't tell her and just let her go. It was awesome. So I highly recommend going back and checking out the last episode. Not only did we talk about Psalm 22 and tell a really cool story about a worm, Dion loved Days of Thunder. Tell a day good night. With Will Farrell. Days of Thunder. Oh, well, anyway, welcome back to the Lyric in the Light. Today we're gonna tackle a little, it's not really a hot topic because I don't know that people are really talking about it, but we were talking about it. And it was something that was a hot topic in our small circle of the world. So we've talked about the day, I mean, we talked about the Indiana Dunes Great Banquet a few times in the past. Oh, shoot, we gotta open up in prayer. I'm sorry. We're looking, we always want to forget that. I don't want to forget it. We just start rambling. Okay.
Opening Prayer And Awkwardness
SPEAKER_03Deanne's gonna start opening us in prayer.
SPEAKER_00Father God, thank you for bringing us here together today to record the podcast and to just talk about things that are on our heart. And we just thank you. I struggle with this. I struggle with this, Lord. I don't know why. It's so hard for me to pray out loud. All right.
SPEAKER_01Just thank you for bringing us here together. Thank you for allowing us this, putting together this space to do this. And we always say if it's even just one listening, whether for the content or for the laughter, sometimes the the seriousness of it, you know, then that's all we're forward trying to do is reach one and always just to glorify you. And so just be with us today as we record this episode. Thank you, Jesus.
SPEAKER_03Wait a minute. You did good.
SPEAKER_01What's that?
SPEAKER_03Look, could you giggled in the middle?
SPEAKER_01It's so like awkward for me. I just can't stand that it's that awkward. I need to stop. It's only awkward. I struggle when I'm just talking to him by myself. Like I don't struggle when I sit and talk to him, you know? It's not like I sit there going, oh geez. We don't know what to say. Oh no. We're supposed to say geez, sorry, but you know. Are we not supposed to say geez? Some people think that G's is like just sort of a short name for, you know, geez,
Words That Offend And Why
SPEAKER_01ooh, geez. Well, yeah.
SPEAKER_03I'm so glad you talked about that because now we're we're we are talking about a little bit of the some people think that. Yeah. The the phariseeal rules that we like to put on top of people. So, but before I guess before I even get started talking about this, I want to say it's okay to not agree about everything. Yeah, for sure. It's and it's okay to have respectful differences of opinion. So I am not convicted about saying geez. That never even occurred to me that it would be a shortened version of the word G. It's just like, oh geez. Oh goodness.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you know. You know, another one is Xmas. People don't like when people like write like Xmas because they say they're like kind of it's against Christmas, Christ mass, you know. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03You know, it's like a shortened version of it. Yeah, yeah. Like you're saying, I don't know, I don't get wound up about things like that. People are weird. People are weird. People are weird. I'm weird too. No, but yeah, about certain things. What are you weird about?
SPEAKER_01I mean, I get the G's thing, I'm not weird about it. I I guess I'm weird about people being weird about it, like G's, or I say, oh God, like joking around, or oh Lord, or oh laude, you know, just kind of joking. And some people don't think that's funny, you know. I don't know. We just had our granddaughter recently, and she dropped a JC bomb. And I was like, You don't say that. And she was like, Why? It's not a bad word. I said, It's taking the Lord's name in vain. And she's like, I don't understand that. I said, It's like, to me, it's worse than the F word. And she was like, like looking at me like, what? And I was like, Yeah, that's not nice to say. But then I told her, if you feel like you need to say that, say cheese and rice. Cheese and rice. Yeah. I said, if you feel like you have to say that, say cheese and rice. Don't say JC. Like it's don't say it like that. You know? She's like, when you say Jesus, I said when I'm talking about it, and yeah, I don't say it in a negative way, you know. Yeah. So I just but to me, so I don't know if I'm weird about that, but if you're dropping JC all over the place, I think that's horrible. And it is worse than the F-word. I would literally rather her say the F-word in front of me than the JC bomb. I just don't like it.
SPEAKER_03That's okay. And I that's very disrespectful to me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I want to know who's saying it in her life that's speaking that over her that she would say it like that. And she's saying it in the right way. Like she's saying it when she's aggravated about something. Yeah. No, we don't do that.
SPEAKER_03I wonder why we use that though, when we're aggravated about something. I hear it's a good idea. Where did he where did he get involved in that? Is that like were we coming to him with our like our aggravation about it? And I and I this is coming from somebody who's guilty of that. And I I I think because I grew up saying it, you know, in I didn't have people speaking, you know, Jesus over me in any healthy way growing up. Like I really like, like I it just was something like that. My mom used to say, and even on Outlander, she said, Jesus H. Roosevelt Christ or something like that. So I don't, but like is it because maybe it originated in people going to him in their frustration, being like, Jesus, help me. Yeah, yeah. Like, like help me with these people, Lord. You know what I mean? Um that that that's where it came from.
SPEAKER_01And I'm like, Jesus, you know, like that, and that's not good, you know. So, and even when I say it, Chad, I'll go, I'll go, Jesus, and I'll go help her.
SPEAKER_03You know, like yes, because in that moment, that's what I'm asking for. Strike them down, yeah, Lord. Sons of thunder over here.
SPEAKER_00Uh yeah.
SPEAKER_03So even they had their moments. I wonder if they said that like that. They're like following him around and being like, Jesus!
SPEAKER_00But you know, did Jesus move something? Me. Son of God.
SPEAKER_03No, okay, that's me. Yeah. Sorry. But who did he ask call out to? Or when he was what did he ever get frustrated? Please, he was flipping tables. Come on. Oh, that's true. So, but so when does it cross the line into sin territory? When does frustration suddenly land there? Or when is it justified frustration to where God is like not against it and it's not coming from a place of being bad, is it's coming from a place of like genuine, yeah, like my thing is coming out of a Christian's mouth, it just sounds awful to me.
SPEAKER_01I mean, it sounds awful to me no matter who is saying it, but when you hear a Christian saying it in aggravation, it's like, ooh, yikes. Yeah, you know, I see why Chad follows it with helper, you know, because yikes, you know, yeah, it just it just doesn't, it it's disrespectful to me to Christ.
SPEAKER_03And that's okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's that's that is a fair, a fair thing to but probably so is some people think so is oh Lort, or you know, hallelujah Lort, you know, kind of when you joke around or something. Maybe some people find that offensive. I just put something recently on Facebook. I wish I could remember what it was, but it was a Christian funny, you know, kind of funny. And somebody kind of commented commented on it like funny but not funny, you know. And I was like, you know, I don't know, I was just being silly. Chad wears a t-shirt that's got Jesus stomping on the devil's head, and it says, not today, bro, or something, or you mad, bro, it says something like that. And I know some people find even wearing things like that offensive, or Jesus, the original deadlifter, or he is Riz in, you know, and people think that that's respectful. I I think it's funny. I just bought a t-shirt that says I told my it says something like, I told my friends Jesus is the way, and they said, No way, and he said, Yahweh. You know, like and I I'm gonna wear it, like I think it's funny. Yeah, because I'm not meaning it in disrespect to Jesus. To me, it's trying to reach the average Joe on the street when he reads it and laughs at it and thinks, oh, well, she must be a Christian, but she's got a sense of humor, you know. I don't know, but yeah, that's how I look at it. I'm not trying to be disrespectful in any way.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, my favorite Christian t-shirt that I have, I don't know that it's necessarily funny, but it's a conversation piece and it says, All my heroes went to prison. And then it has all of the guys that in the Bible that went to prison on the back of the shirt. But that cut that shirt, wearing that out is caused so many conversations that had been really really positive. And my Jewish best friend that we've talked about, Jill, she actually uh when she came to visit, she bought one for herself that she wears. You know, just it's a conversation piece and she loves my coworker. He he on Easter, like or right after Easter, he goes, Happy Zombie Jesus Day or something. Oh, and and I was like, same, same. I said, I said, uh, he is risen indeed. And it's like but that was like it didn't offend me that he said that. And I he's not a follower of the Lord. He's that it so I didn't I knew where he was coming, but he was trying to relate to me in my own way with his own, you know, brand of sense of humor. But I guess I just don't, I don't, I don't allow myself to get bothered by things, and I think that that's kind of the perfect lead-in to this conversation about what we're talking about today.
Great Banquet Theme Sparks Debate
SPEAKER_03So I I had mentioned earlier that we we've talked about the Indiana Duden's Great Banquet a few times, which is a three-day crash course in Christianity retreat. They do a men's, a teens, and a women's weekend twice a year. And I get was asked to be on team, and I'm in charge of table decorations. They every they serve you, you know, three meals a day, and each day has a different kind of theme going on. And so one of the meals is centered around like a fiesta day, because the Andana Dunes Great Banquet started out as a Hispanic, it started in a Hispanic country. Was it Spain that it started in? Everything I've read this morning was Mexico. Okay. So Mexico. So I I thought it was Mexico, but then I'm like, maybe I'm wrong, and it was it went to Mexico, but it started so it has Hispanic, Hispanic cultural background. So we do a lot of a fiesta day, and a lot of times people kind of lean into this to a rooster, and one of the main things that people say is de colores for all the colors for so of the the banquet. So I was like, you know what, I'm gonna do something a little bit different. The lay director, who's the woman in charge, they change directors every time they do a banquet, and the lay director for the women's banquet this year, she is a huge Disney fan. And I too am a Disney adult. So I thought, you know what? We'll lean into, we'll do the day of the dead. Instead of doing a fiesta, we'll do the a day of the dead.
SPEAKER_01You were just sticking with the vibrant colors.
SPEAKER_03I was going with the colorist vibrant colors, so we had all the colors, just like the Day Colorist, but we all but it was something different than the rooster, which everybody seems to go with. It leaned into the director's love for Disney and my own. But I also in the movie Coco, which is why why I'm talking about the Disney correlation, in the movie Coco, it is all about honoring family members that have passed away, if you're familiar with that holiday. And for me, we with when you serve in the banquet team, the only way you can serve at the Indiana Junes Great Banquet is if you have gone through. So when I'm serving the people who are going through now, I thought if we turned the staff, the team of the banquet into Coco characters and put their pictures up, you are honoring the people who've come before you who have who have been exactly where you are on this weekend, and we're honoring them. And it was it was a cute little cartoon picture that turned these are the team members into cocoa characters.
SPEAKER_00A couple of them, and uh it was very cute.
SPEAKER_03It was adorable. And so I went to take pictures of the team, and there was somebody on the team who had very strong feelings about using Day of the Dead imagery for that meal. And I had looked into it before I ever even uh suggested doing that. And I I didn't find anything that proved to be inappropriate for a Christian retreat.
SPEAKER_01Why did they have no why did they have a problem with it though?
SPEAKER_03They felt that there was demonic image, it was demonic imagery, and it talks about that they felt like it also kind of glorified talking to the dead and necromancy and things along those lines where people were using it for demonic purposes. So I I I I heard them out, but I I did not personally agree. But I don't feel like I have to show up to every fight I'm invited to. So rather than make it a bigger thing than it was, I just immediately pulled it because I love the woman who's the director and I said, This is your weekend. I don't want to make anything harder for you. I'd rather just cave and pivot than fight this fight. But I would be a liar if I said that that it didn't bother me because I don't subscribe to that same belief. So I did a little bit of looking into it. And so I found some scripture that is uh that argues, not argues on behalf of it, but I just I want to get into you know what Dia de los Muertos is. So the key point to the Dia de los Muertos is in its cultural honoring and remembering loved ones, not worshiping them. It's about family, traditions, celebrating life. And from a Christian perspective, it's it's it's an occasion to reflect on God's gift of life and the hope of resurrection and gratitude for the great cloud of witnesses. It's all about it's it's it focuses on intention. So pointing people towards Christ rather than superstition. So I'm embracing that it's a celebration, but also I want to make it clear that the focus is on God's eternal promise. So I looked up some scripture too that has to do with kind of backing
Scripture For Honoring The Dead
SPEAKER_03this up. So in first Hebrews, we have first we have Hebrews 12:1. Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and sin which clings so closely and lets us let us run with endurance the race that's laid out before us. So that Hebrew verse is about seeing ourselves as part of a larger family of faith, which means those that have gone before us who are cheering us on, so that we remember our loved ones and we're acknowledging that community of faith, not worshiping them. So that was the first one that I found. The second one is 1 Thessalonians 4, 13 to 14. But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, and you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. So I I in that I don't like we're not worshiping the people that have that have died. We're we're like celebrating the ones who came before us. We're not, I don't, I just I I think that everything is about intention. You can turn anything that God made for good into something bad if you're coming at it with the wrong intention. And that I would the example I used when talking to you about this is music. Um the they have said that Lucifer was the the original worship leader. Right. And God and he has turned a lot of music into something demonic if you l really pay attention to what's happening in secular music right now. But worship music wasn't music wasn't originally intended to, you know, to be for the Lord. And I think for this as well, that you can take something like this holiday, the day of the dead, and change it to talk to the dead, to try to commune with the spirits, to, to worship false gods, to focus on the demonic side of it and the skulls and how scary it is. But it doesn't, it it didn't start out that way. It wasn't made to be that way. People who have demonic intentions have twisted it to use it for that purpose, but it was never created to be anything more than a celebration and a memory and and to to remember the the family members that came before.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I said to you that I I likened it to Memorial Day when we, you know, we m have memorialized our veterans and we celebrate them that day. They're dead, but we remember their sacrifice to our country. And even when we go to the grave site of our loved ones, we clean the grave, we lay flowers down, we sit and talk with them. I know many people who on the the day of their death release balloons and have cake or you know celebrate that person's you know passing still years later. So I guess I kind of looked at it like that, that it was similar to that. I'm not gonna say putting up a shrine is is biblical or description, but I know many people who have lost loved ones that they have a bookshelf that's got the person's picture on it with you know, maybe their favorite little whatever you know, just whatever was something that reminds them of that person. So I think that's initially how I I wanted to look at it. I did tell you I was kind of down the middle because I wasn't really sure. And then as we started looking up scripture and stuff, I started to find scripture that leaned into not supporting it, but just the whole dry bones come to life. And I mean, there there was there's several pieces of scripture that I found that and we can list those all if you know we want to. But I I did tell you though that I wanted to read to you some things that I did find that do have me on the side of, well, hmm, hold on.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, let's just well before you read that. I want to read one more to you. So Exodus in Exodus 2012, honor your father and your mother that your days may be long in the land of the Lord your God is giving you. So in Exodus commanded us, and the Exodus commanded commandment is about honoring those who came before us, our parents and ancestors, because honoring isn't worship, it's respect. So when we take a moment to honor their lives, we're acting in line with that, and it's all about framing it as a respect and memory, not worship and superstition. So that was really the direction that I was coming from in that.
SPEAKER_01So I think also with Coco, I think that I mean, because it is about the day of the dead, that is what Coco is based on. I think that the way I was trying to perceive it from the other angle of the person from Banquet who was kind of against it was that it's not like of this, like it's not of this world and it wasn't of our Christianity within this Christian weekend. However, you were coming at it from a place of complete love and fun, and you know, like you said, the late director being a dis a huge, I mean if you saw her car, you'd be like, Yeah, you know, yeah. And because then you could even take it one because I think one of the arguments was we want to leave the world outside of the weekend and not bring it into the weekend. That is a concern of some. And my argument against that even was then why are we bringing Disney in at all? Disney is the world. Do you know what I mean? Right. But it's a theme, fun. What did you say in the beginning about it's not phariseical? It's that what's kind of making it seem demonic. I I don't know. Right.
SPEAKER_03You're manipulating uh something to make it to make it fit whatever lens you're looking at it through. So just to share a little bit about Dia de los Muertos and how it came from, came about, is that it has deep indigenous roots in Mesoamerica way before Spanish colonization. Cultures like the Aztecs honor their dead as part of the natural cycle of life. So when Catholicism arrived, the traditions blended with All Saints and All Souls Day. And the fusion gave us a vibrant celebration that we now know rooted in respect, remembering loved ones, and celebrating life. And it evolved. Into a joyful communal way to honor family without fear, but with hope and joy. And I think a lot of what comes from the where people think that it's demonic is the misunderstandings of just seeing imagery out of context. So, like the skulls, for instance, are symbolic reminders that life is fleeting, but that they're decorated joyfully to celebrate life, not to summon anything dark. Plus, sometimes people assume that any spiritual tradition outside their own is spooky, but in reality, it's about family memory and faith. No demons are invited. So I think if you're, you know, if you want to see evil in everything, you absolutely will. But I choose to see God in everything and joy and happiness, and I and the dark has to flee from the light. So the devil can try to grab onto something to make it about him, but I won't give him that kind of a stronghold.
SPEAKER_01Right, right. So let me read the things I found, and then we can further the discussion just after the stuff that I found.
Warnings About Communion With Spirits
SPEAKER_01Because in all fairness, we did want to look at both sides. Absolutely. So I'm not trying to say that you're wrong or anything like that, or that they were right, or because I definitely don't even see it that way. So something I found is that the rituals required in preparing for the day of the dead are deemed important based on another notion. It is believed that the dead are capable of bringing pop prosperity, for example, an abundant maize harvest or misfortune, for example, illness, accidents, financial difficulties. So this is one of the rituals of the Day of the Dead, is believing that the dead are capable of bringing some type of prosperity to the family or a curse against the family, you know. So that doesn't sound very b biblical.
SPEAKER_03No, well, prosperity gospel is a joke.
SPEAKER_01Right, right, right. So another thing said that there's nothing wrong with honoring the memory of loved ones who have died, but Day of the Dead observances go beyond honor and promote communing with the dead. Jesus indicated that those who have died do not have access to communication with the living. So, and that is biblical. Yeah. So, you know, I found that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but if you want to believe the movie Coco is real, and that you really are talking to dead people and going into the land of the dead and walking around self.
SPEAKER_01So this is from Isaiah 8.19. Should not a people inquire of their God, why consult the dead on behalf of the living? Even if the souls of the dead were capable of returning, they could not bless or curse anyone. Blessing and cursing are God's prerogatives. That's that, and that part was actually from Proverbs 333. This I'm not sure why I but it said, Mexico now is oh, this is why. It says Mexico now, this was something I found in a transcript of how do you say a deal? Okay, thank you. It says Mexico now issues annual warnings to parishioners during the days leading up to the holiday, warning them to keep Santa Muerte out of All Souls Day. Now that was I think she was the lady. They explained her further. She was like the lady with the big hat and the skull and who was all did you say that it was it was an artist who created her, actually, who created these these two skeletons, the man skeleton, the the lady skeleton, the Santa Muerte. I had read further stuff on it, but it was all actually created by an artist who just drew these things. And so whenever it all came about, you know, it was not, you know, it was his mind creating these what you see now as the sugar skulls and the skulls and things like that. But it said that all saints day, they they in Mexico they did, they're telling parishioners this because all saints day, the clergy is viewing the skeleton saint as her heretical. Is that the right word? Yeah. So whatever that means, which I do know what it means, but I don't, I don't have my thing in front of me. Anyways, okay. So God says in Deuteronomy that we are not to idolize the dead. Also in the New Testament, a man comes to Jesus and says he wants to follow him, but he needs to go and bury his dead relative first. Jesus says to let the dead be with the dead and follow him if you want to live. Also, the Bible says that demons come to us as familiar spirits. So that's just like a warning kind of to be careful if you're getting into it that heavy, you know, in the spiritual warfare and all that. Right. And then this is Deuteronomy 18, 10 through 12. There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a necromancer, or one who inquires of the dead for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. So and then one more thing from Revelation 118 and then 22.5 of Revelation 2. But the hope of the deceased Krishna is not being welcomed again to the kingdom of the living. Our hope is living forever in the kingdom of the living one, safe in him who is alive forevermore, and who alone holds the keys of death in Hades. So yeah. So I'm I'm firmly with you on the on the outlook that this was meant to be fun and colorful and Coco, Disney, you know, we're not literally celebrating the day of the dead, you know, at this Christian retreat. It was meant to be fun and loving. And most of the people that you had pictures of or that I knew, nobody had even known I knew, you know, that it was an issue. So when you when you told me all this, and then the person that had kind of brought it to that that different light is also a friend of mine. And you know, I I was kind of stuck in the middle because I see their point and I see your point, you know.
SPEAKER_03I could see if I had Ouija boards as a as a trying to yeah, what is it, the placemats or something that if I had if I had Ouija board placemats or if we were having a seance or if I did tarot card napkins or whatever, like I could see that like meant to be a a Disney, a Disney a Disney thing. And I get like leaving the world out of the weekend, but I think one of the other directors, like they're they're part of like a biking community, and their biker friends came and did like a a ride in the parking lot as a you know as a nod to them. And and a lot of peace, some people didn't like that. And but that could like I don't know. I guess I just I but that's when I said that Pharisee.
SPEAKER_01Then
When Christians Police Art Choices
SPEAKER_01of the weekends. Let's let's just make it, you know, the buy the boat, you know, and and not have any fun, and and then, you know, take take out the roosters, because I'm sure I can find something vulgar about roosters if I look hard enough. You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_03Like the about the animals, the animal aspect of it.
SPEAKER_01That's just how Yeah. I I agree with you on like why why are you why do some people have to try to find okay, look, look. Okay, so I was part of the last weekend, the last banquet weekend, and I wanted to sing a song called For Good from the Musical Wicked. And I was told that I could not sing it because it was from the musical wicked. Who anyone who knows the musical wicked who truly knows the story? There is nothing wicked about that story. It's actually a story of redemption and grace and love, you know? And sure, I could be the one that turns it into it's spiritual warfare. And I've never, never watched it and felt that, never, never have felt convicted, never have I'd not let my grandkids watch it because I felt a certain way. Nothing like that because I don't see that. And then furthermore, I wanted to sing the song for good, which for people who don't know anything about the musical, they sing to each other, the two girls, on how they have bettered one another's lives and how you know, before they got into the place that they're at now, that they came alongside one another and got to know each other instead of judging and you know, allowing the judgment and wickedness to come in. They knew each other truly at the heart, you know. And furthermore, I wanted to sing it for, so I happened to be an assistant lay director on the last banquet. I wanted to sing it for the lay director and the other assistant lay director as kind of a nod to them on my journey through the weeks leading up to the banquet and all they had done for me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And yeah, two people turned it into you can't because it's not of this world and it's not Christian. And and my heart broke because if they had known the way it was going to be done, what I had planned, kind of within all that, it was so beautiful. So beautiful that it brought several people to tears when I told them about the moment and then sang the song and everything. It was beautiful. And then actually, one that was against it, I did give her all that, and she did say, That is so beautiful, but I still don't agree with you bringing it into the Christian environment. All because it's from a musical called Wicked.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And it it crushed me. I was really hurt because I I certainly did not mean it in any negative sense or spiritual warfare or demonic or anything like that. Now, here's another one. In our old church, the pastor did not want us singing anything that alluded to the devil. We he did not want music being sung that alluded to the devil. Why, for some people who think spiritual warfare and you know that that side of it, why are they okay singing about the devil then? I'm okay singing about the devil, I don't care.
SPEAKER_03So I said because that's and you just said the ASS word on a Christian podcast.
SPEAKER_00Sorry, geez, you know.
SPEAKER_03Oh, there you go.
SPEAKER_00Wow, wow. Spiritual warfare.
SPEAKER_01The devil's here. No, no, I don't believe he is. I don't believe he is exactly. So what was I saying? But because I was trying to make a point. About singing. Oh, about singing about the devil. So why do some people have an issue with singing about the devil but other people don't? Do you know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_03So well, and and that brings me to what I wanted to say next is that that people hold on to parts of scripture that resonate with them and their personal beliefs, but they turn a blind eye to the parts of scripture that they don't want to pay attention to. So in this particular choosing again. Yeah, cherry picking. So in this particular instance, we had taught, you know, it was not just that it happened, and that I don't agree with the way that it happened, that I don't agree that it happened in the first place, because I believe that we are saved by grace and saved by the belief in Jesus and who he was, who he was, what he did, and what happened after. That he lived a perfect life, that he died for our for my sins, and he rose again on the third day. And and that is that belief in Jesus is why I'm saved. And and and I do believe that. I don't believe that I'm going to not go to heaven or not have a relationship with God. God is still using me, even and and growing a ministry that I steward. He doesn't seem displeased, and he has no problem convicting me about things that I do that he doesn't agree with. So he never laid it on my heart that I was doing something wrong because I think God saw my intentions. Now, if he was saw me wanting to commune with the dead or encourage other people to, I think he would have made even the tiniest little tinge of the Holy Spirit lives in me. So he would have been like, hold on, think about that again. Let's go, like circle back. But it I didn't feel that. But the so I don't necessarily think it was bad, but it wasn't just that it happened, but it was how it happened that that reminded me of because the person who had the issue instead of coming to me, went over me to someone else who happens to not be the president of my fan
Matthew 18 And Handling Conflict
SPEAKER_03club. And then they went over me to the people above that and and shut it down without ever coming to me. So first, and then and so I had a problem with that also, because in Matthew 18, 15 to 17. I think there's a big truck outside. Sorry about that. That's my stomach. You'll get that if you listen to the last podcast. We heard a humpback wheel pod coming out of Dion. If your brother or sister sins against you, go and point out their fault just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they do not listen, take one or two others along so that every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. And if they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church. You go so step one, go privately. And that didn't happen. And if the person had had a chance to talk to me ahead of time, I would have told them that the person that they took that to next was not exactly my biggest fan for reasons that don't matter. But they so but they should have, they should have come to me and we could have had a conversation. I would have maybe explained my heart behind it, and maybe they wouldn't have felt like it was necessary. But since it happened, and I didn't put it down and I did let it go up until you know wanting to discuss it today, which really is not so much about that issue because I really have let it go. We pivoted and we pivoted beautifully, and I'm really excited about what's happening in its place. Sorry about that background noise. I don't I don't know what's going on outside. But is it it more has to do with just kind of the the things that we allow people's personal convictions to speak over our lives as if we don't have the Holy Spirit living in us too. Yeah. And you can feel some kind of way about something, but you don't get to judge another person's bondservant. And that's from Romans 14, I believe, Romans 12 or 14, where you don't get to judge another person's bondservant. That if God has an issue with something that I'm doing, that the Holy Spirit lives in me and He'll convict me. Yeah. But you you should at least take it to that person and speak your heart about it. Because I would have very without there being any kind of issue at all, if I would have easily just said, you know what, if that's how you feel about it, and if you feel like it's gonna be some kind of weird whatever, or because you have people going through the banquet and you're you it's imagery you're not comfortable with for this, that, and the other. I'm a good person. I'm a kind person. I would have put it down and pivoted. But it was it's that kind of pharisaical, this is bad. Here's why. Let me double down and send you multiple resources as to why it's bad and you're wrong, and then condescendingly tell me, Well, you're new in your faith, so that's why you don't get it. And it makes sense that you don't get it. And it was kind of condescending to hear that too, because whether I'm new in my faith or not, God is doing a work in me and and the Holy Spirit speaks to me just like he speaks to other people.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's how I felt about the wicked stuff too. It was just like it hurt me because I wasn't able to really give why it meant something to me, you know. So yeah, and nobody wants to be hurt by someone else's no, you know, you can't do that. You know, this, you know, well, can I explain why I want to or why this matters to me, or how God laid it on my heart to do it in the first place, you know. So yeah, I don't know.
Halloween And Easter Convictions
SPEAKER_01I I don't know. I, you know, we could go even further into like Halloween. I've recently had a conversation with a friend about Halloween and how they've been convicted not to celebrate Halloween anymore. And we had talked a little bit about this last year, and I had said that I had given all my Halloween stuff away because I had also felt convicted about it. And then I had this friend say, you know, well, we're a Christian, and you know, we celebrate, if you want, quote unquote, you know, Halloween, but my kids only can dress as a fireman, a cop, a princess, a fairy, you know, whatever. You know, so it's a day for the kids to go have fun and dress. Do we not do we not any longer believe in imagination and and children just frolicking around in costumes and having fun? You know, my grandkids are not out there worshiping the devil on Halloween, they're going to get candy from strangers.
SPEAKER_03So much safer.
SPEAKER_01So much safer than when you say it like that. I mean, come on though. Come on though. You know what I'm saying? So, and I know Christians, I've talked to them, are divided on that. Yeah, so even. And we all have our personal reasonings or feelings about it. But that doesn't mean if you still celebrate Halloween and I don't, that that's not for me to worry about. That's for you.
SPEAKER_03You can go ahead and step down off that soapbox. I did not come, I did not sign up to be a student at your lecture. You can feel however, and if you feel personally convicted about not celebrating Halloween, then don't celebrate Halloween. Then the Holy Spirit is talking to you. When he's ready to take that subject up with me, he'll take it up with me. He did convict me about the about the outfits, you know, and when Arya was like, I want to be Wednesday, which I thought was weird because she never even watched that show. I think she just was kind of following, I think she was just kind of following like what was popular at the time. And I was like, Well, I said, you don't, we we're not dressing up as villains, we're not dressing up as something bad, like we you, you know, you can dress dress up as something positive. And so she's been an astronaut and a fighter pilot and then a princess and all those things. But I I'm not gonna tell her you can't run around the neighborhood with your friends and and have the childhood experience just because I feel, you know, like I want to say something about something. But if the Holy Spirit really does convict me about it, then then it isn't happening. Right. Because I'm not gonna go against his orders, but he doesn't, I don't feel like he convicts us about everything all at once either. But some people, you know, they feel some kind of way, even with uh the Easter eggs. So Easter eggs have nothing to do with Jesus at all. And I think that actually comes from a pagan holiday, the the East Easter or whatever, which is why people say like Happy Resurrection Sunday instead of Easter, because it's East the Esther, A Star or whatever was a pagan holiday that celebrates fertility and that's hence the the rabbits and the eggs and the I did not know that. Um so that's where that comes from. I wish I had actually like looked it up so I can give you like the real like backstory to it. But if you but there's a lot of churches who do Easter egg hunts, but I don't think that they do it because they want to celebrate the pagan holiday. I think they do it because it's an outreach that gets people to their church where they can share Jesus with them. And they're meeting people where they are instead of standing on a soapbox outside their church telling them all the reasons why little kids can't run around and grab plastic eggs with candy in them. I don't think you're you I don't think you're gonna meet people where they are if you're constantly standing on a soapbox.
SPEAKER_01Why does Light the Way participate in the Velpo Popcorn Festival?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we want to get out of an event. I know, go boy. You know what I'm saying? But you do it, why? Because we want to get out in front of the community. We you had a chance to pray with somebody in the parade that that just happened to be standing on a sidewalk that wasn't expecting to be prayed with. You just felt compelled to go and pray with somebody, and we got to give away little Jesuses and we got to smile and wave and and just spread love because there's other organizations in the parade that are not spreading love.
SPEAKER_01Plus, it was superheroes, and you had come up with the idea of Jesus being the original superhero.
SPEAKER_03He is the original superhero.
SPEAKER_01And yeah, no, that was um, we had fun.
SPEAKER_03We can't wait to I I know I'm really excited to do it again. We'll be in the popcorn festival again. So if you want to volunteer, please reach out. Um shameless about it. Um, but yeah, so so I guess the just to kind of wrap this all up is that like there's no shade towards that.
Open-Handed Versus Closed-Fisted Faith
SPEAKER_03I love that person. And I but I think we we should have to remember that it's like there are open handed topics when it comes to faith, and there are close fisted things when it comes to faith. I personally believe that our convictions about things like that, about Halloween, about Day of the Dead, about certain types of music, about dressing a certain way, you know, wearing pants versus skirts, cutting your hair, wearing makeup, things like that. Those are all open-handed issues that I don't personally, I'm not gonna, you're not gonna catch me arguing about it. But there is close-fisted issues, the one close-fisted issue that I think all of us can agree on that needs to stay the focus of our walk, and that is Jesus Christ being the Son of God, part of the Holy Trinity, one-third of the Holy Trinity, and that He was given to us, born of a virgin, lived a perfect life, died as a sacrifice for our sins, and was brought back to life in the resurrection three days later to ascend to heaven at the right hand of the Father, and that one day, if we believe that he is the way, the truth, and the life, that we too will go to heaven, will face, you know, the to the the throne of judgment, and we will be brought to life in a new heaven and a new earth. And that's that's it. Anything outside of that is not saving grace. It's it has nothing to do with salvation. And if it doesn't have to do with salvation, it is an opinion that you can keep to yourself. So like I mean, you're welcome to talk to me about it, but you can you can talk to me from down from your soapbox. Yeah, yeah. And if you don't want to do all any of those things, you don't want to celebrate Day of the Dead, you don't want to celebrate Halloween, you don't want to whatever, like then don't.
SPEAKER_01I still don't think, like I said, that it that was your intentions, though it's never that same. So I regardless of the rest of it, I just I I know that that was not your intentions, and you actually had a a thoughtful process to why you were doing it and and you know where it was coming from. And and even when you had said about the team that you were taking pictures of and correlating that with those had come before the guests that were then seeing it, it it was to me, it was a beautiful sentiment, you know.
SPEAKER_03So um I also think it was almost an insult to the people who I did take pictures of that knew what I was doing, who are not new in their faith, who didn't see a problem with it because part of their the person who had an issue, part of their argument was, well, you're new in your faith, so you just don't know any better. Well, what about all of them? Yeah. What about that whole spiritual team that smiled for that picture? What about the lay director who smiled for that picture, who has since asked me for a copy of the picture of her and her husband as Day of the Dead characters that is now printed in their bedroom and in their house. Yeah. So, or and in their classroom. So they like, are you telling me that all of that you are much further along in your walk than everybody else on that team that you know better than all of them? Yeah. Like, that's kind of insulting and condescending to them too. Yeah. You know, you believe what you believe. And and because of that, your picture was not taken and not used for what was taken, but it was not used for that purpose.
SPEAKER_01Right, right. Yeah. I mean, like I said, I I'm seeing I'm seeing all sides to it. So I I still can't say that I have an opinion about it. I but I wouldn't have cared. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like I I don't know that I'm forming any sort of opinion here at all. Yeah. Or your side, that side, nothing.
SPEAKER_03For sure. I'm not trying to bring you over to my side anyway.
SPEAKER_01I I I don't see anything wrong with it. Uh I don't see anything right with it. I don't, you know what I mean? I I was indifferent to the whole thing. When you told me I was shocked, so let's put it that way. It was like, what? Like, so yeah. So and then, you know, you had your scripture about stuff, and we had decided to land on the song Rattle for our song to go
Rattle And Ezekiel Dry Bones
SPEAKER_01with this episode. So that's Elevation Worship, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03It is Elevation Worship. I love that song.
SPEAKER_01A lot of people have problems with them too.
SPEAKER_03So uh I'm sure, yeah, they they think uh Steven Furtick is a heretic, which I mean, I I would think I don't even know.
SPEAKER_01I'm like, what? Oh yeah, maybe I'm ignorant in my walk, I guess. I don't know. I'm I I've been walking with Christ for 22 years, and I just again I let people be people, and I don't know. You have your opinion, I have mine, and I still love you.
SPEAKER_03People will people as long as there's people. So yeah, the song rattles, Elevation Worship. It was on the Graves into Gardens album. It was written by Stephen Furtick, Chris Brown, and Brandon Lake, which I I knew he sang on it, but I didn't know he wrote it, so that's pretty cool. And it's about resurrection power, not just someday in heaven, but right now in the middle of dead situations. The song pulls straight from the book of Ezekiel 37, the vision of the valley of dry bones. God tells Ezekiel to prophesy, and the bones literally come back to life. So the key lyric is my God is able to save and deliver and heal and restore anything that he wants to. So that's the thesis of the song, and why it resonates is because it's not just poetic, it's deeply personal for people, and it speaks to broken relationships, lost hope, spiritual dryness, and situations that look impossible. And instead of being soft about it, the song is literally like, no, God still moves, so get ready.
SPEAKER_01So it brings dry bones to life. He does. You know, to me, that's what I landed on with this episode, you know, and and wanting to talk about it. We were taught as children them bones and bones and jaw bones, and the foot bones connected to the leg bones. And it was a Christian song.
SPEAKER_03No, that was a Christian song. I thought it was just telling us about our body parts.
SPEAKER_01No, and it comes from something back in probably uh if I'm not mistaken, have read it. It was like back in like slave times, it was a song that they had created or something. If you looked it up, I think it's something like that. Oh, I'd love to look that in. It comes from something long ago.
SPEAKER_03But I mean, we we we your kids were being taught that in Sunday school, so So since we're talking about things that are that are dry bones, was I this we don't serve a God who just comforts us in dead places, we serve a God who calls dead
Testimonies Of Healing And Joy
SPEAKER_03things back to life. So I'm gonna ask you, what is something in your life that felt like dry bones, but God brought it back?
SPEAKER_01Like, you know, my health, my physical health, my mental health, and I had even full surrender, literally, you know, drinking and he revived all that by taking that away and healing my body. It was stage three liver disease, and he took it away, and now it's fatty liver, and so to me he brought he brought me back to life, you know, in so many other ways too. Talking about, you know, like when people say, you know, give me your testimonies, like, what testimony do you want to hear? So the same. Yeah, so he's definitely brought me back to life, dry bones, several times, you know, so yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think my joy, I used to be a really happy kid, a really happy person. And then, you know, bad thing after bad thing after bad thing happened, and you know, my like the drugs and alcohol started being what kind of brought like a synthetic joy to my life for a really long time. And when he got rid of that problem for me and gave me my husband and gave me my daughter, and gave me this ministry and the friends that I have now, there is like this natural joy that feels like like a resurrection of like I forgot. Yeah, I love it. I mean, I'm I am really happy. And I joke that you know the joke now is that I'm this like golden retriever, but really, like, that's just it really is the joy of the Lord in me because I wasn't like this before. I mean, I wasn't like miserable, I was never like a miserable, like sad sack of a person. I hid it really well inwardly. I was sad sack of a person. No, you're not. No, you're not. I laughed so much with you. I was looking so forward to you coming back to record it. Like, broke my heart when your car wouldn't work last week and we couldn't end up doing this, and yeah, and you were sick multiple times, and I was just like, can we please just get back together? Because I laugh to tears every single time that you come over here. So I would never describe you as a sad sack. Yeah, I we really need to put that on a t-shirt, but then people probably have a problem with that too.
Do We Believe God Still Resurrects
SPEAKER_03So my my last question before we wrap this up is do we actually believe that God still resurrects things or just in theory?
SPEAKER_01Like literally can resurrect someone from the dead. Isn't that what miracles are about? You know, I guess I would I could say yes, that I would believe that, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Not that I've seen it in my lifetime, but you know, God is able to save and deliver and heal.
SPEAKER_00I mean, you know, if you're talking literal resurrection, you know.
SPEAKER_01I don't know. I I was talking to Chad one day though, and I said, what the miracles that they saw back then, why do we not see them today? You know what I mean? Like Lazarus coming literally back to life. And why are those not like things we see today? But I do believe we do that's miracles when someone died on the table for three minutes.
SPEAKER_03I was just about to say there's so many stories of people like there was actually a movie that came out not that long ago. I went to go see it with the church, and it was all just stories about people who died and and were brought back and the things that they saw when they died.
SPEAKER_01We have a beautiful friend, Sammy Joe, who literally died, you know.
SPEAKER_03I don't think I know that. I haven't heard her testimony, literally died.
SPEAKER_01She was dead, and God brought her back to life. That's amazing.
SPEAKER_03So I I would love to I can't wait to hear that. I have never heard her testimony.
SPEAKER_01Testimony is beautiful and powerful. Oh, that's amazing.
SPEAKER_03So I guess we do. Yeah, yeah. Maybe not after four days, but I mean, and that but it's not to say that he couldn't. Yeah. Because I do believe that he can do anything that he wants to do.
SPEAKER_01I just heard a message in church yesterday about, you know, that you maybe you can't, but God can God can, you know. Yeah. Maybe, you know, stuff like that. I want to read something really quick before you pray us out, because I prayed us and you're
Coco Lyrics And Closing Prayer
SPEAKER_01there. I just want to read the lyrics to Remember Me from Coco. Because it's a beautiful little song, and I won't sing it. I'm just gonna read the words. But it says, Remember me, though I have to say goodbye. Remember me. Don't let it make you cry. For even if I'm far away, I hold you in my heart. I sing a secret song to you each night we are apart. Remember me though I have to travel far. Remember me each time you hear a sad guitar. Know that I'm with you the only way that I can be until you're in my arms again. Remember me.
SPEAKER_03I was gonna have you crying.
SPEAKER_01The beautiful little lullaby is what it is, and it's yeah, so that's from Coco. And you can look up that song too, and then it's very very pretty.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you won't have to look it up because we'll put it in the comments. Oh, there you go. Yeah. So close us out. Dear Heavenly Father, thank you so much for being present for this conversation. We ask that you have your Holy Spirit, who is living in everyone who chooses to believe in your son Jesus Christ, to speak to our hearts about the things that are not of you, and that if you really feel strongly about something that you that you don't hesitate to guide us in the direction that you want us to go. And if we run across people who are not walking at the pace that you would have us walking, that we treat that person with grace and love just as you would, Lord, because you are good and you are the perfect example of how we are supposed to love our brothers and sisters in Christ. We love you and thank you for our time together in this conversation, God. Please let it be received with ears that are willing to hear the heart behind the message and not coming from any kind of spirit of offense, Lord, that it's okay for all of us to have different opinions as long as we all can all agree that you are our God and your son Jesus Christ is who he is forever and always. We love you and we thank you for blessing our time together. Amen. Amen. In Jesus' name. Thank you. Bye.