The Lyric and The Light
A weekly space where faith and music meet. Each episode, we will take one song- from timeless hymns to modern worship- and pair it with the living truth of Scripture.
The Lyric and The Light
Put Your Socks On And Bring The Kids
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Kids in church can be beautiful, distracting, hilarious, and holy all at once, and we’re not interested in pretending otherwise. We talk candidly about what happens when children stay in the sanctuary, why some kids thrive in Sunday school, and how worship, prayer, and community can shape faith long before a child can explain theology. If you’ve ever felt judged because your child whispered too loud, changed seats five times, or couldn’t focus through a long sermon, you’ll feel seen here.
A moment at the altar changes the whole tone: a nearly seven-year-old granddaughter walks up holding her baby doll and starts worshipping with her hand lifted, simply copying what she sees. That one picture opens up a bigger conversation about Christian parenting, grandparent discipleship, and the quiet power of “small Sundays” that stack up over years. We also share practical convictions about screen time in church, why fidgets can help, and how worship music often reaches kids before preaching does.
From there, we go deeper into why protecting kids matters to Jesus, what children’s ministry is really for, and how hard testimonies can shape the way we pray over the next generation. We talk about grief, forgiveness, and noticing glimpses of God even in the darkest chapters, while still longing for our kids to find Jesus without having to be shattered first.
If this conversation hits home, subscribe to The Lyric And The Light, share it with a parent or grandparent who needs encouragement, and leave a review so more families can find it. What’s your stance on kids staying in church versus going to Sunday school?
Cold Open And Side Tangents
SPEAKER_00Can a melody change your bad can it's single versus Canada? Can it sing over the lyric in the light? The lyric in the light.
SPEAKER_05What noise was that?
SPEAKER_06Welcome back to the lyric and the light, everybody. I don't know why we can't start this podcast without there being some kind of hoot and annie happening around here. Dion's making fun. Welcome back. Man, okay. Well, I'm gonna get us started in prayer so I don't forget this time, and then we're gonna jump into a topic. So I'll get us started. Dear Heavenly Father, thank you so much for this conversation that we're about to have. I hope you're I hope you're present.
SPEAKER_04Oh, God forbid we stop and start over.
SPEAKER_06I do want us to keep going. Lord, help me. Oh Lord. Okay, I'm sorry. We're gonna be reverent. Lord, please forgive us. I mean, you made us, so you know that sometimes we're goofy and we're tired. And Lord, just be with us for this conversation. Bless our time together in Jesus' name. Amen. So I'm so sorry. But no, I will not start over because this is real life.
SPEAKER_02Put socks on, please. Please.
SPEAKER_06Stop looking at my looking at my feet. I'll grab a blanket.
SPEAKER_02No socks on, no shoes on. And I have a thing about bare feet. I don't know what that's about. She gets a blanket over her feet.
SPEAKER_05I'm a hillbilly.
SPEAKER_02Oh my gosh. I don't know what that is, but I mean you can ask my family. Ever since my kids were little, I didn't like their feet. I just don't like feet that are exposed. I mean, you're looking at them. Just don't touch them. I wasn't gonna touch you with dangling it.
SPEAKER_04Oh, though. We were sitting close to them with chair. You didn't tell me. You didn't tell me that you had down horror issue when we started to break.
SPEAKER_06Listen, they're not that bad. Everyone's are. Actually, no, my feet are really bad. They're like almost always dirty, but I blame the fact that I'm from Florida. And I do they are. I have I have historically dirty feet. But that's from I'm from Florida and we are barefoot people in Florida. We are flip-flop people. It took me, I think I lived here probably a good eight years before I ever bought winter shoes.
SPEAKER_02I don't know, I just don't like it. And I I don't like other people's feet, is all it is. Even Chad, if he wants like a foot rub, he's gotta put socks on. Like I don't I don't want to touch my husband's feet either. When my kids were little, I'm telling you how people, oh kiss little toes. No, nowhere near my mouth. Like I don't know, I just and now one of my kids is like that too. So woman by daughter doesn't like feet. But it's the daughter that's got weird who doesn't like feet.
SPEAKER_06So I also have weird I won't say who. She knows.
SPEAKER_02She's got you know how your toes like they go like anime chronological.
SPEAKER_03You know the digits. The digits are the tall guy. Sorry. And then it goes down in a slope.
SPEAKER_02And then a longer guy. Like her her ring toe is oh, it's not even your ring finger. No. The toe next to the big toe.
SPEAKER_05Your ring toe. And her big toe.
SPEAKER_02So her pointer toe, if you were looking at your toe, is longer than I can't talk about her. She told me not to talk about her on the podcast.
SPEAKER_05Okay. I love your ring toes pointer toes.
SPEAKER_06When he asks us to marry. If you love it that you would have put a ring on my toe. I did wear a toe ring. Hence, I'm from Florida.
SPEAKER_02Good thing this is the episode about children.
SPEAKER_06No, they're not. They're not. Maybe you're weird. I feel like there's a there's goofy picture. Oh no, you couldn't. If you weren't lit if you weren't listening to the last episode, that is not from the Lord. I'm just gonna add this on the back end. I don't know where that landed, but you can't sell pictures of your feet because that's prostitution. It is. What do you think people are doing with those? Feral but forgiven. We hope we certainly are hopeful. All right, we're moving away from feet, but yes, you're right. So stop looking.
SPEAKER_05You do have a pretty tattoo on your foot, but I also have a skin discoloration. I can see it's not a rash. It's a I know, I know it does.
SPEAKER_06And it gets redder the hotter I get. So when I'm warm, it turns like really bright red. But it's a hotter, that's the sexier I get when my foot rash is a poppin'. Brian loves that. He loves it. He also doesn't touch my feet. And whenever I go get my feet done at like the mail place, they always talk about them. I don't know what they're saying. I don't know what they're saying. But I one day I think I don't know if my feelings could handle it because I feel like it would hurt me. But I almost want to like pop one of those earbuds in that like translates what they're saying, but I don't know if I want to know.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_06I mean, I know because they call people over and they point and laugh. So I know it's not good.
SPEAKER_02Wash off and water.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02No, I love my girl that does my nails, actually. She's very good. And this is over three weeks. Oh, those are lovely. She is amazing.
SPEAKER_06They can't stand they're pink and sparkly.
SPEAKER_02They go once a month.
SPEAKER_06I press mine on because I'm a baller on a budget.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but yours always look nice and well.
SPEAKER_06Well, they're not today. Because I bite my nails really bad. That's my nervous habit that I've had forever. I am a hot mess today. I am. I have no makeup on. My hair is. I had a long weekend though.
SPEAKER_02Mine is yesterday's makeup, actually. I always wash my face before I go to bed, but I left on like eye stuff last night. I don't know.
SPEAKER_06No matter how much I washed my face, there's eye stuff. My eyes just help like my eyelashes and uh the eyeliner or whatever. Like, there's always like a remnant of before. Even when I use the makeup washing wipes and whatever. Like I feel like if I went to sleep and woke up, there would still be like some kind of raccoonage.
SPEAKER_02I'm gonna do a shameless plug here for the makeup eraser. It's a cloth, you can order it off Amazon, but it's called they have offerings of it, but the the original one is makeup eraser, and it comes in a four-pack of cloths, and you just water and wipe your makeup off, and it gets them gets them good, gets it good.
SPEAKER_06It's weird that it's weird that they don't hire you to to do to do advertising for them in commercial. If you guys want to make any kind of a deal with her, I'll be her business manager. Please reach out to me at the lyricinthelight at gmail.com. Oh I don't know. I think so. Do we have any more? We do, I would, and that's how often I check it, but I don't actually know. But I think it is they don't because they can't, because they don't know what our email is, and um neither do I. Now I gotta look. All right, we're gonna talk.
SPEAKER_03Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_01I'm a mess.
SPEAKER_02Like I said, good thing this is uh episode about children.
Setting The Question: Kids In Church
SPEAKER_02That's what we were gonna we was gonna be talking today about kids in church.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, it is the lyric in the light at gmail.com, by the way. I'm like, are you ready? Because he's over here like red in the face. I am, I can't breathe. Okay, yes, I am ready. Let's talk about children in church.
SPEAKER_02We're gonna talk about children in church. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06We are children in church. We act like children in church.
SPEAKER_02If we weren't together in church, thank God we don't go to the same channel. Thank God we don't go to the same place. Because we talk about the back row pew a lot, and that's probably where we're sitting in the back, cracking jokes, making fun of everybody.
SPEAKER_06No, except that you and I wouldn't sit in the back, we'd sit in the front and do it. Because we don't care. A couple of animals.
SPEAKER_02We don't care what anybody says. We walk in that room like Dobb sent us.
SPEAKER_06And we can't hear them over the sound of our laughter anyway. But God made us who we are. And I'm not ashamed.
SPEAKER_01He did. No, I'm I am sometimes ashamed of you.
SPEAKER_06I was about to say a viewer of me. That's fair. No, I'm not. Okay. So what do you want to talk about kids in church? What do we do? What did we talk about?
SPEAKER_02What what are we doing? Okay, so I did want to talk about kids in church because I first of all I did not grow up in church. But you thought I did. I was a fair little animal. No, no, I didn't grow up in church. I do remember going to church as a child, but I don't I think we might have gone like an Easter time, maybe. I don't know. We belonged to a Lutheran church, but what I remember from that was going to confirmation when I was like 13. Like it was something more just my parents said I was going to do that. But I don't remember like Sunday school or anything like that growing up. And definitely if I did go to Sunday school, I never we were not the Sunday morning, get ready for church and put your church clothes on and let's go to church. And we just I didn't grow up that way. So but somehow I do have memories of uh you know, scant memories of church, not Sunday school or anything necessarily, but I went to a church camp a couple summers, but it was like the Salvation Army camp at the time. I don't know if they still do that.
SPEAKER_06They do that actually just signed Daria up to go this summer. Oh, yeah?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, okay. Well, then my best memories of learning anything about Jesus was at Salvation Army camp.
SPEAKER_06That's exciting. That makes me really happy to think that that's something that she'll pick up there.
SPEAKER_02And the reason I remember it is because it was what launched my career.
SPEAKER_04Launched your career.
SPEAKER_02Oh, okay. Yeah. So I was very proudly the strong young tree in one of the summer's musicals at camp. And what you don't know about the strong young tree is that it was the lead role. So the strong young tree grew down by the water in a field where they always were fed water and sunlight, and and then the city moved in and started encroaching on the strong young tree's you know, life. And she sang a song of lament.
SPEAKER_03She sang, I have roots growing down to the water, I have leaves growing up to the sunshine, and the fruit that I bear is the sign of a life in me. A strong young tree.
SPEAKER_06So, anyways, you all remember what you had for dinner last night, but you remember that song.
SPEAKER_02A strong young tree. And that was really pretty. The city moved in and they decided that they were going to build around the tree. And so the tree had a little park, in fact, then where people could come and sit and admire the tree. And what that had to do with Jesus, I don't recall. But yeah, but I was a strong young tree. That's cute. I also at the time of camp learned another song that I actually helped write when I was 10. It might have been 10. But that one, my granddaughter and I have sang at our last church together. And so it was a uh echo song, and it went something like this: it went, mirror, mirror, mirror, mirror on the wall.
SPEAKER_03I know, I know who is who is Lord of all. Just let me see him every day. For me, for me, that is, that is the only way. If you're looking for Jesus, hoping to find hope for tomorrow, some peace of mind. You can find him in the Bible in many churches that I know. But till you find him in the mirror, you've got a long way to go. So near it, near it, near it.
SPEAKER_02So I sang it with my granddaughter recently at our own church, and she just thought it was adorable. You know, the echoing and stuff like that. And she stood up there with me. I think it was last month or she's day.
SPEAKER_04That's so sweet.
SPEAKER_02So, all that to say, I do remember some things about Jesus when I was little, but I just don't feel that it was in Sunday school or anything like that.
A Granddaughter At The Altar
SPEAKER_02So we have now, we have six grandkids, and I came to Christ late in life, and so my kids were not raised in Sunday school or church, and now I'm not struggling necessarily necessarily, but trying to get my kids to bring their kids to church, you know, to go to church at all. They don't have to come to my church, but our youngest daughter has been bringing her daughter, who is almost seven, to church, and she won't go to Sunday school. She's I think she's just afraid to go in there, she doesn't know anybody, you know, whatever. So I said it's fine, she can be in church with us, that's all right. She's not disruptive or anything like that. But I had a friend recently also tell me that kids in church because it's the next generation, and she believes that they're also learning there in church, you know, listening to the sermon or whatever. So in church yesterday I saw some of the kids on their phone, and I don't like that. I would probably tell them if it was my kid to put that down in church, you know. Some of them had little, you know, maybe slime, you know, or things that they were messing with in their hands, which I think which I think it's fine. That's fine. They're just concentrating on that, okay. But I don't like the phones in church or tablets, anything like that, for that matter. I mean, maybe if it's a two-year-old, you know, that you're trying to keep quiet there in the seat, maybe, but yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I have different opinions about that. Anyways, so our daughter's been bringing our almost seven-year-old daughter to church now at VNC. That's where we go. And I said I I did say about the friend who said that she thinks children in church are the next generation. Okay, so I don't have a problem with it. And she's been really good. She'll she'll flitz from seat to seat, kind of in between my my daughter and in between us, you know, sitting there. But she listens, she she's quiet, she's learning her indoor voice, you know. She sometimes she's you know mimsy. She just has a felt laugh like why is he saying that? Or why does she have that on? And it's like, shh, you know, so yeah, she kind of learning indoor voice, but yeah, so but I don't overall I don't feel like she's disruptive really. Um, and so most recently we had a service that at the end of the service they were singing a song and they had a call to the altar, and people went down to pray, and I saw a man, an older gentleman standing there with no one kind of praying with him or anything. And so I stepped forward and you know, went down there and put my hand on his shoulder, and I was just singing the song at the end. It was the newer, it is well with my soul. You know, that's what they were singing. So I was just singing that over him, you know, and had my hand up in the air and one hand on his shoulder, and my head down bowed and singing. And I felt somebody come up alongside me, and I looked to see who it was, and it was our granddaughter, and she was holding her little baby doll, and she had her head down, bowed, and she had her left hand up in the air, and she was swaying back and forth, you know. And I I lost it. It was sweet. I I mean, it was it was so touching. And when it was all over, and I turned around back to my daughter and friends that were sitting there too, and you know, everybody had tears in their eyes, and it it was such a beautiful moment just to see that, and I know that that's where everybody was coming from, was how beautiful that was. Never mind that it happened to be one morning in church that I've never seen so many people go forward. So there was really kind of this mass, like, you know, exodus down to the altar, which was sort of different in its own right. And then to have that happen. And of course, my daughter was, you know, a mess too, just having been watching that. And so I said it really got me thinking that, you know, her being in church, uh obviously she's emulating what she sees the adults do, and she was emulating what she was watching me do. And you know, I think that's just as important as them being in Sunday school, whatever they're learning in Sunday school. Not that Sunday school is not important, but that she's she's hearing and she's seeing, you know, things. And so it was a really touching moment. And when we left, we were going to lunch, and she said, You know, Mimsy, why was everybody crying? You know, and I said, Well, some people cry joy joyful tears. They're happy that Jesus has helped them, or they're just happy to be praising God. And I said, and some people are crying because they're sad and they need Jesus, you know, and they need God. And and um, she said, Why were you crying? And I said, Well, I was crying tears of joy, and I said, you know, happy tears. I said, because I saw I looked down and saw you praising Jesus. And she said, I was. I that's that's why I was doing that. And I said, Yeah, I said that was great, it was beautiful. I said, How did you feel doing that? And she said, I like Jesus, he's my friend, you know, and I said, Yeah, he is, and you know, so she doesn't know Jesus for all intents and purposes, you know what I'm saying? I mean, she has she hears about him and shears she's heared from us, she's heard about him, you know. But so then the whole ride to lunch was, you know, but we can't see him, and you know, why can't we see him and just all that? Yeah. And so the past, oh, I I had mentioned in uh just a previous episode recently that we had her for spring break, her spring
Devotions, Easter, And Kid Questions
SPEAKER_02break. And I literally just spent the whole week pouring into her. I we started our mornings off with small devotional for kids. We read a little bit of the Bible. Sometimes I could tell she was listening totally, sometimes she wasn't listening. I could tell she wasn't really listening. But as we approached Good Friday and started talking about what Good Friday meant and that Easter was coming and she rose from the dead and all that, you know. And she intently was listening to that story. And afterwards she was coloring and she asked to make a craft or whatever, and I put all the craft stuff on the table, and she cut out a it looked like a what it ended up looking like. Well, it ended up looking like exactly what it was. She cut out and created the tomb. So it was all the the tomb itself was cut out, and then she had drawn on the rock rolled away, and then on the side was a cross that she said was Jesus, like that was her correlation, you know, that the cross was Jesus, and then there was sick people who obviously were married, and whoever was there, you know, that saw Jesus, blah blah blah, whatever. So she had been listening to me and it was cut out, and the tomb was rolled away. And all weekend we were singing up from the gravy rose. You know, like so she just thought it was so fun, you know, rose, you know, whatever. I get I guess she got home though after the weekend and was going to bed Sunday night and was crying because Jesus was dead. So I don't know. My daughter messaged me and said, What did you tell her? What I said, I told her the Easter story. I don't know. She said, Well, she's crying because Jesus is dead. I said, Well, remind her that he's alive. But she doesn't do it. Anyway, so all that to say, I I I I enjoy her being there in church. Yeah. And the way she's been reacting to it, I feel like what if she's the one? You know, what if what if she I always talk about my friends? No, I always talk about the one. Who is the one I'm supposed to reach? Who is the one that God is calling me to disciple? Who is the one that that's gonna ever say of me, she taught me about God? And you know, what if she's the one? You know, that's all. And what if she goes into ministry or what if she goes into praise and worship leadership, or you know what I mean? What if what if she's the one? So the week meant a lot to me that she was with us and means so much to me that she's in church and that my my daughter brings her to church. But I also wrote something recently that I was gonna put on Facebook, but I decided just to read it here. Just a second to find it. So and it's kind of about the kids in church and stuff like that. Bear with me just a second because I didn't find it. So I just told you about the altar calling her down there praising and worship worshiping Jesus with me. And I I said she doesn't understand everything, she doesn't sit still the whole time. But there's something sacred about letting her grow up in the presence of God, even before she can fully understand his name. I'm proud of my daughter for bringing her, even when she's tired, or maybe just doesn't feel like coming that morning. Even if she feels all eyes are on her when her daughter fails to whisper, or keeps getting up to change seats between her and Mindy and Bates. But the truth is, most people aren't judging. Most of them are smiling, remembering when they once arrived, carrying little ones into church. She brings her because these small Sundays matter. One day our granddaughter will recognize the songs, she'll try to whisper the prayers, she'll fold her little hands like she's seen us do. And long before she understands theology, she'll feel it. She'll know this place is safe, this place is home, this is where we talk to Jesus. Some Sundays I hear more of her than the sermon. Some Sundays my worship looks like holding her hand rather than lifting mine in praise. But it still comes. God sees me, He sees her, He sees her mom, He sees the seeds being planted long before they're ever born. And I don't take that lately because I know what it means to come to him later in life, to learn things the hard way, to wish I had known sooner. So we bring her now, not out of obligation, but out of love, out of hope, out of faith that her story can begin differently. So I'll keep showing up with her at my side because I'm helping build a foundation she'll stand on for the rest of her life. Her little feet in God's house today will be steady footsteps of faith tomorrow. That's awesome.
SPEAKER_06So yeah, so it's just it's it's meant a lot to me that that she kids in church versus Sunday school or I I like you, I did not grow up in church.
Sunday School, Learning Styles, Worship
SPEAKER_06I also, well, I went to a church that was a call a Coleridge Christian school for preschool and then aftercare once I got into elementary school. So I grew up in that. So I had kind of a like a little bit of a base. And then when I got to probably about fourth, fourth or fifth grade, I went to a Lutheran, I was baptized Lutheran. So I went to a Lutheran church with my best friend and her mom. And my mom had been Catholic, but she left Catholicism because she had five miscarriages. Stillbirths, that all five. And they basically said to her, if you believed in God more, he wouldn't have taken your children. And that her husband had an affair and they didn't want to give her the divorce. So she left the Catholic church and she married my dad, and then she had me and my sister, and but she so she went to the Lutheran church because Lutheran is like Catholic light.
SPEAKER_04So I say lazy Catholic.
SPEAKER_06Right. My dad's a Lutheran. And uh so and so it's my I have friends that are also in that. But I find a lot of the like even the pastors at my church, I think one or two of them like started out as a Lutheran, now they're non-denominational, but they so we went there and I was an altar girl, but I did it because my best friend was doing it, and I just would get in trouble for laughing, shockingly enough, because my pastor would sing like this. But he had like a really like froggy, awful voice. And so I just used to giggle, and so I couldn't do that anymore. And then my parents were like, Well, do you want to keep going? And I'm like, not really, you know, they're like, Okay, well, you mean you have you have a base, right? That's enough, you know. You're you're decide you decide at whatever point you want to, whether this is something you want to pick up or not, but they weren't really interested in going either. And so we kind of just walked away from that. And then so with Aria too, I was like, she was a gift from the Lord, and so there was no way she wasn't gonna be going, she wasn't gonna be raised in the church. I just think like he went, he went to such crazy lengths to ensure that she was here that I think he has a plan for her, but I don't know that she'll know what to do with it if she doesn't know him. So I mean, thankfully, you know, she was only a few years old. I mean, a few years ago, so 20 three June of 2023. So we're coming up on three years. So she was four or about to be four when Late the Way started. So she grew up kind of watching that. And now that we've been in the banquet community for a couple of years, she's she goes to those meetings with us. Almost everybody we are around is uh Christians. So all of them we listen to worship music. Her first concert was Phil Wickham and Brandon Lake. So she she likes all of that. She she has a map on her wall in her bedroom that when we read a chapter of the Bible, she wanted to start at the very beginning, she has to mark it, she wants to work her way all the way through. She chose to memorize the first 23 or 26 books of the Bible. That was just something she wanted to do. But she she has she has a heart for the Lord. And I'm I'm so grateful for that. But when she sits in the service, she is not paying attention. I think if it was maybe if it was just reading the Bible, she might be more interested because she's listening when we read it at night. But when but he talks a lot like expositionally, and I don't know that she understands what he's talking about, and so she wanders. Like you can kind of just see that she's sort of like looking around. She's not really like fully listening, and she's kind of waiting for her cue to get out. But when she goes to Sunday school class, it's a shorter lesson, but she does remember those stories. We'll ask her about them on the way home or uh on the way out of church. We're like, what did you learn about today? We'll go over her verse. So she is learning from being there and she likes the songs that they do. So I think I think I don't mind her being in church. I certainly don't mind other people's children being in church, but she but for her her way of learning, I think she's doing better being in Sunday school than she would be doing if she was in the room with us. Yeah. But she definitely definitely loves like the worship music side of it probably the most.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think if Riley had other her other cousins in church, she would go into Sunday school for sure. And I think it would just be a matter of somebody going in there with her, and then she'd be all right probably every other Sunday. So, but she we walked her up there one night, one day morning, sorry, and she just refused to kind of mess with just another. Arya loves your churches. She did not want to go in. And the the Sunday school's teacher name was Miss Rachel, but she still wanted nothing to do with it. She was like, Nope. She even sang a Miss Rachel song to try to get her in. Nope, not into it. Even if I went in there with her, she didn't want to go in. And how old is she? Almost seven. Oh, okay. Yeah, she'll be seven. What is what is the date today? The 20th? Just kidding. She'll be next week.
SPEAKER_06Today's 420.
SPEAKER_02On the third. Oh.
SPEAKER_06I'm sure some people are out there celebrating.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah. Anyways, next week she turns seven. So but I I love having her there in church. So I I think I'd be a little sad if she was in Sunday school, just because she wouldn't be in church with us. But she loves the praise and worship though. She loves that. Yeah. For sure.
SPEAKER_06So if she's doing well in there, I mean I think that Arya just grew up going to Sunday school. So that's where she knows to go. But there's certain like uh the Good Friday service, they didn't have church, they didn't have services for that. So she had to. And yeah, so I I'm my hope is that she'll continue on wanting to go in that direction when she's not being forced to, and that her relationship with God, that is my my one big prayer for her outside of like just making sure she doesn't get involved with drugs.
Raising Kids Around Jesus And Reality
SPEAKER_06And that's the one thing I asked her. I'm like, keep your relationship with Jesus. I said there's only like two things I'm gonna ask you to do. One, never ever, ever, ever, ever try drugs. Two is stay close to Jesus. I said, anything else you do, like this is your life to live. You know, but I really this is my prayer for you. And as your mother, like, if you want to do me a salad, those are the two things I want for you. Yeah, and so far, so good.
SPEAKER_02So that's good. She's a good girl, though. I mean, she's I like her. I like her.
SPEAKER_04I like her. I like her too. She's all right. She's an alright kid. She's an alright kid.
SPEAKER_02She really is, though. I see the difference in her and Riley though when they're together. It's funny because Riley's very rambunctious and Arya's very even keeled. She's like the most laid-back seven-year-old that I've ever been around. Even the day I had her alone, she was so laid back.
SPEAKER_06She's very mature to the point where I sometimes forget how old she is. It just, but I've never baby talked to her. Yeah. I have never, I talked to her just like I'm talking to you right now. And I have conversations with her about when she makes choices that aren't great choices and why that makes me nervous. She's been serving in the community. I mean, she goes and she does outreaches with us. She has such a heart for unhoused people, which we've talked about in previous podcasts. She watched somebody OD right in front of her. And my mother-in-law was like, Why did you let her stay and watch it? I'm like, Because she needs to know what the realities of using drugs are. Like that that could happen to her, her biological family. There was out a lot of excessive alcohol use on one side and drug use on and alcohol use on the other. And I worry for her that if she decides just to even be experimental with that, that she could end up, you know, because she has an addictive personality, that she could end up going down that road. And I just don't want that for her. So I want her to see the realities because the devil have you believe in that drugs are a good time, that alcohol's a good time, and everybody's cool, everybody's doing it, that you're the weirdo if you don't. But the reality of that is addiction is is a terrible disease, and and the devil's a liar and he wants to kill and still steal and destroy, and and he will come at you when you're young and you're gullible and vulnerable. Yeah. But I I'm I'm glad that you're bringing your granddaughter to church. And we, you know, we can't go back in a time machine and do things differently. I'm sure my parents were still alive that if they could have saved me from walking the road that I walked, that they probably would have wanted to keep me, you know, closer to God earlier on. But I also know that in the same way that they couldn't protect me from my testimony, and I needed all the things to happen to me that happened to me in order to get me where I am now. I have to think about that with Aria too. I can't save her from her testimony. No. And so it's hard because I'm a good way to look at it though.
SPEAKER_02I wish I had had that thought thinking about even my own kids, you know.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. I mean, I don't know that it's gonna be a comfort to me if something really bad happens to her. Yeah, but I know that that's part of that's part of her story and that God is in complete control and that whatever happens to her, you know, that he is not outside of his grand design at the end of the day, and that he'll redeem her, you know, what whatever she loses. So I just have to keep her covered in prayer and just hope for the best that and just keep reminding her that God loves her.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So with that said, you know, bring your kids to church. If they don't want to go into Sunday school, don't worry about it. I mean, I that's I I look at it that way for sure. I'm one too. I don't care if people have their kids in church at all. I don't find it's uh distract. I mean, if your kids screaming their head off, step out into the fire, but oh you know, I don't really care.
Verses, Quotes, VBS, And Protection
SPEAKER_02So obviously the scripture I chose was Matthew 19, 14. Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these. I'm gonna give two songs because obviously my heart goes to, you know, Jesus loves the teacher. You know, so I like that. And then um but that morning that she was praising the song that the praise team was singing was It is Well. The newer version, the newer version, not the hymn, the old hymn, but uh the old hymn is great too, but the the newer version of that. And I found a couple quotes about kids kind of in Christianity, I guess. One Dr. Lawson Murray said the aim of children's ministry isn't to grow children's ministry, it's to grow children. And not literally, you know, planting them in the ground like jelly beans. Growing jelly.
SPEAKER_05That's so weird. They don't grow like jelly beans.
SPEAKER_02Neil Postman said, Children are the living messages we send to a time we will never see. And I love that. And then D.L. Moody said, if I could relive my life, I would devote my entire ministry to reaching children for God. And I love that. Again, I really think that's very important. Anyone who is in children's ministry, I think our angels are amazing, yes, angels, just amazing hearts, and yeah.
SPEAKER_06So I serve at BBS every summer with my husband, and we we started out our serving career, I guess, in in church, uh working kids' ministry, but I was I had the daycare at the time, and it was really hard because I was like sometimes it felt like every every day I was just with a bunch of children and I was just feeling like really emptied. But I do love doing VBS. It it is a lot of fun to see how excited they are about Jesus and to get to talk to kids about Jesus.
SPEAKER_02So, like this summer, Arya will go to VBS or she goes to VBS.
SPEAKER_06She'll go to she'll go to VBS, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Oh, maybe I would bring Riley to those. I don't know if we have we must.
SPEAKER_06Calvary has an amazing VBS. I'm sure VNC does too. They're a big church like Calvary too, but they they I love Calvary's VBS. I feel like that is a well-oiled machine, and she's more than welcome. Yeah. I'm gonna have to. I I can probably volunteer Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, which is fine because Thursday's a family day. So that would probably be something that I would do.
SPEAKER_02I need to look into that, even both of them, because uh, I mean, I plan to have her over the summer.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, it's usually like the first or second week of June. Okay. So I'll let you know when I find out. It's probably it's probably even on my app. We'll talk about it after this. But I you I you talked about Matthew, and I looked up some scripture too while we are in there's another, there's two more for Matthew. So childlike faith is the goal, not something to outgrow. Gospel of Matthew 18, 3. Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. So we don't just teach kids faith, we learn from them too. And I I love their like kind of childlike belief, because sometimes as adults, like we're jaded and we we don't believe for things that, you know, and that God is capable of abundantly more than we can think or imagine. I love the imagination of children and I I pray for that kind of faith that they just believe that everything's gonna be fine and they the safety that they walk into the world feeling, you know, like knowing that their mom or their dad is like, or like they can they can go and be wild and run around and do crazy things because they know that we're here and we're watching. And like God is that for us, that we are so fearful, but we don't lean on him. And the relationship that that I have with God has been really affected by my relationship with Aria because I definitely see him as a father figure uh now because of my relationship with Aria, the the parallels in those relationships, and just it has it has made a huge difference with that. I'm sure. And then it says Book of Deuteronomy, teach them oh, sorry, another protecting kids matters deeply to Jesus, Gospel of Matthew 18 and 6. If anyone causes one of these little ones to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck. Kids' spiritual lives are serious and sacred, and the church has a responsibility to protect and guide them well. I wish more churches took that more seriously and stopped. You know, we stopped hearing stories about people who are sick getting into positions of leadership in the church and putting their hands on kids.
SPEAKER_01No, right. I mean, you're right. That's that's very song.
SPEAKER_02I read too that I I didn't copy it here where I can read it, but something about it's uh it's a higher percentage of kids who continue to walk in faith throughout their life are more apt to do that if they know Jesus by the age of seven. Oh, that's awesome. So yeah, so that stuck out to me obviously with Riley. Oh, I don't know if I've said her name. It's okay to say her name.
SPEAKER_06I say Arya's all the time.
SPEAKER_02So I don't know why I do that. It's my podcast, it's my grandkid. No, anyways, but I that comforted me to read that. And and I know that that's not always the truth. So I know I've known kids who have grown up pastors' kids who run ruckta later in life, you know what I mean? So there's there's something too, you know, son of a preacher man and things like that, you know. So and being the pastor's kid, you know, that there's probably a lot of pressure on being a pastor's kid, though.
SPEAKER_06I can't imagine doing that. But just wanting, I mean, because you need to re I I pr they probably need to rebel a little bit. They gotta make their mistakes, they got and there's a lot of pressure on them to be perfect because they're a pastor's kid, the expectations and unrealistic.
SPEAKER_02Bravo for the ones who come out though on top and just follow the herd. Yeah, you know what I mean? Or follow the word, follow the word, not the herd.
SPEAKER_06Oh, that's good. I like that. But you know, another t-shirt.
SPEAKER_02Follow the word, not the herd. But yeah, but I would say I was thinking follow the herd in church, like follow those those people who are backing them up. Yeah, so I know plenty of pastors' kids that are great adults now, and then I know some that didn't fare very well. Yeah. So why they choose that one way or the other. You know what? We're giving we're given the freedom to choose those. So, and like you said, some of them I think need to push the boundaries a little bit to see to see what else is out there, unfortunately.
SPEAKER_06Will God still love me even if I choose to walk over here a little bit, you know, see what happens, see what see what's out there.
SPEAKER_02But just don't. There's I I just don't. I always tell my kids and grandkids if we could just learn from the things that I had to go through to get to this point. I know we all need to experience our own things and like you said, our own testimony and stuff like that. But the one thing I always pray is that they never have to have that come to God moment, you know what I mean? That it never has to be from some tragic event or losing their child or being raped, or you know what I mean, things that I had to go through to get here.
Trauma, Forgiveness, And God’s Presence
SPEAKER_02However, with that said, I was just telling someone the other day that in everything I have gone through in my life, from the time my dad left, you know, through my teen years that were, you know, I was awful. I was acting awful. But being the victim of rape and losing my child and all the things leading up to here, I can go back and see the glimpses of God though that were with me all along the way. And you know, even the morning after I was I had the morning after I was raped, and I was uh in Cabrini Green in Chicago, and all I could see out the window was the other building, the other house next door, a brick house next door. But even now, it it took me years to come to because I wasn't in Christ, but even now remembering the following morning, laying there watching the s the snow fall outside, and the like what I can only describe now as like a heavenly light. It was the sunlight, but the way the snow was falling so beautifully, and I I I immediately started to remember like making snow angels in the snow with my sister and brother, and kind of coming to that realization that I just lost my innocence, basically. I had just been robbed in my childhood. And but even now. I can go back though and think of that morning and looking out that window at nothing. But God was there.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. That He tried to remind you that I don't know how to distract the peace is still there or make anyone understand that.
SPEAKER_02But I know in my heart, going back to that moment he was there. And anyone on the outside would say, How could he have been there when that happened? But God does not allow that, that that was evil in the world. And even the the guy that raped me. This is probably gonna sound so sick and stupid to say, but I didn't okay. He was so out of his mind on drugs when it happened that I didn't always fault him for that. I didn't always fault him for having raped me. And it was a violent rape. I mean, I was I was I I was not I should I don't think I should have lived, let's put it that way. I mean the the gross severe beating that I took, and but somewhere in my mind I I knew it wasn't him, right? I knew it wasn't him because he was so whacked out on whatever he was on. Yeah. And I forgive him. You know, I do. I forgive him. I forgive him for that. And if I could see him today, I would tell him I forgive you for that. Yeah. You know, I might I might even go as far as saying I forgive you and I love you. You know, because it it wasn't him, and he was just a kid. I mean he was 18, but he's still a kid. Yeah, you know.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, so it's awesome that you can think that no, it's uh do not apologize for that. Yeah, but I thought when you were saying that you wish that or you pray that they don't have to have that come to Jesus moment, I thought, what wouldn't I experience if it would bring me to God? Yeah, what would I say now? Not in not not enough. Like, like I like like I I hate spiders. I hate them. I think they're they're terrifying, they're gross, they're awful, and you ever see this it's like a Facebook meme, and it's like, would you walk through this like thing of spiders for a million dollars or whatever? And I'm like, no. But would I, if God was on the other side, yeah, I'd run through to get to him. There's nothing there's nothing bad that I like it, like that would be a good thing.
SPEAKER_02But someone who's not a Christian wouldn't wouldn't say that.
SPEAKER_06No, but a but I guess there's nothing that they'll experience in their life that being with God wouldn't be worth what happened. Right. Again, and so if they get him on the other end of it.
SPEAKER_02But somebody who goes through something though and doesn't have that come to God moment and does instead chooses suicide or I can't live this way.
SPEAKER_06It's why we want them to come to God because because they can face whatever they're going through because he is on the other side of it. You know what I mean? Like I I want, I don't want, I mean, I don't nobody wants any any, I don't want anything bad to happen to to Arya or to me or to you or to anybody. I don't I don't want that. But I I think I don't want to rob her of that moment that she gets to come to God either.
SPEAKER_02I guess because I came to God through losing my baby, I want to tell you that's the most ignorant thing I've ever heard in my life. Do you know what I mean? That's my initial reaction is like, how could you say that? Because that was my come to God moment, was going to commit suicide out of that. You know what I mean? Because I couldn't live anymore with that darkness. However, yes, I can obviously I can see the other side now. Because now I thank God for taking him and bringing me to Christ. Like I feel like my baby brought me to Christ.
SPEAKER_06Well, I feel like my baby brought me to Christ too, and I lost five of them. And through not being able to have kids and and watching like babies literally fall from my body uh over and over and over again. Yeah, like I same. I didn't make it as far as you did, but I lost a lot of them. And it's still horrible. It doesn't take away how horrible that was. But Arya saved me, and I came to God because of the gift of somebody else giving her to me. So I understand, and I don't mean to be to be offensive.
SPEAKER_02No, but like I said, ultimately I see now on the other side though, he did bring me to Christ. My baby brought me losing my baby brought me to Christ. Yeah. Now I see that, but at the time, no. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't want that come to God moment.
SPEAKER_06But are you glad you had it now?
SPEAKER_02Yes. And now that's what I said. I I thank God every day for for giving him to me and taking him right back. You know, I wouldn't have said that then, but you know. Yeah. Well, I'm sorry if it sounded insensitive. I'm just saying, yeah. I'm just saying my initial reaction would be that's the most ignorant thing I've ever heard. You know, but no, I'm saying for someone that is going through that and that has just happened to, they're not thinking, they're not thinking like that. No. Because I had people tell me that too, you know, oh, and you have two other kids and they're healthy and you have to worry about them and all those things, you know.
SPEAKER_06Right. Well, that doesn't mean I think I thought about that with reading Job is that you know, God allowed for the devil to take his kids away, and then they get we get to the end of Job and he gives him other kids. And I'm like, well, that doesn't make up for the fact that you don't if somebody took aria from me, I don't care. I mean, I've I've always wanted to be able to naturally birth a child. But if God allowed for aria to be taken from me, making me pregnant wouldn't erase the fact that I lost aria, I would still be beyond devastated for that.
SPEAKER_02Or the five that you lost.
SPEAKER_06For the five or the five that I lost. Having her doesn't make up for the five that I lost, you know. You can see things in a different light now. Because I because she brought God to me, which I didn't have at the time. At the time it seemed like, where the heck are you? Are you even there? Do you even see me? Do you even care that this is happening to me? And there's no medical reason why. Right. There's I mean, you can't even make sense of why this is happening. Why are you even allowing me to get pregnant in the first place if you aren't gonna follow follow through, follow through with this? You know, I was angry. I didn't understand at all.
SPEAKER_02Well, with me though, now I know losing my baby it was because he he needed me. Yeah, you know, Jesus, I'm saying, wanted me to come into the fold, you know.
SPEAKER_06So they could find less hard ways to get you there. Yeah. And then I don't our friend Stephanie, she's been walking with the Lord her whole life. And she's like, sometimes I feel like my testimony isn't a testimony because I've been walking with Jesus my whole life and I haven't ever walked away, and I haven't really had like anything super mega tragic happen to me that to give me like a story worth sharing. And I and I'm like, is that bet isn't isn't that better? Yeah, you know, because you got to you you got to just know him your whole life, and how awesome is that that we've talked about losing one of our children now.
SPEAKER_02Would we lean into our faith, having our faith now? I'd like to think that yes, I would, but I'm not sure, I'm not sure. Yeah, I I'd like to think I would.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, if God, if if something happened to Arya, God forbid something happened to her, would I it is well with my soul then? Right, or would I be like, I don't know what in the world you're doing, Lord. Could I could I forgive him? Could I hold on to my faith then? And I'm like, God, please don't test me that way. Yeah, I don't I don't I want to know that again. So yeah, I hope that I I hope that I would. Yeah. It amazes me when I see other people do it, you know. Yeah. I I have so much respect even for people who don't care for me, who I know have lost their kids, that I have a crazy amount of respect for them continuing on in their faith and doing the things that they do. Uh you know, knowing that they've lost their kids because I'm like, I don't know that I'm strong enough. I hope that I am, but I I don't ever want to find out. Yeah. You amaze me. I think you would be. I don't know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. Sorry, we got so off topic of like kids in church. Shocking that we got off topic. That is a wild concept. That's all right. But the Holy Spirit leads the conversation. But I feel like I hurt you in saying what I said.
SPEAKER_02No, you know me. I'm just I'm just saying if some like somebody's saying that it's me right now, I'd be like, that's just so ignorant, you know.
SPEAKER_06But well, I don't want to be ignorant. Well, I don't want to be, I don't want to be hurtful to anybody who might be on the receiving end of that now because you are on the other side of it now. So you see what I'm what I mean. But somebody listening who maybe just lost a child or just lost somebody important to them, I don't want to come off insensitive to them either. Or, you know.
SPEAKER_02But originally it was because I said I don't want somebody to have that come to God moment. Right. You said you were kind of like in favor of it almost, like at least it's bringing them to Christ then. You know, I get what you're saying.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, that he meets us at our lowest point.
SPEAKER_02But I and I that that had never been why I had to, you know, why I came to Christ, you know. Yeah. Like, I don't know. That's why I said I can see it now, I can see the light now, you know.
SPEAKER_06But yeah, now like well, no one wants to walk into that dark hallway because you don't see him with you at the time because you're in a you're in darkness. But I didn't even know him.
SPEAKER_02So maybe, like I said, maybe now knowing him, yeah, God forbid something like that happened.
SPEAKER_06Thankfully, he knew you. Yeah. You might not have known him, but he knew you. Yeah. And he was with you the whole time. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02Oh, that's what started it was the glimpses of the past and things that had happened. Yeah, I'm actually working on like a memoir right now called Glimpses of God, just kind of walking me through all the things. You know, how I saw him at different points in my life, but never knew that because I didn't really know him. Do you think you'll publish that? Maybe like self-published, yeah, like just for more for like my kids to have it, you know, something like that. I don't I'm not really into self-help books, but it's not a self-help book, it's a memoir. But like yeah, but like writing stuff, something like that for other people, you know, like their testimony, whatever. I feel like it's like self-help or trying to help someone else through it. Yeah, I get that. I mean, I get it, but I don't know. I I that wasn't like like I said, it to me it was supposed to be more like a memoir for my kids to have, you know, it's kind of my legacy, I guess, than what I went through to get to God. And you know, yeah, I think that's beautiful. But then having seen him at all those points that I didn't know he was there, but now no, he was. Yeah. Like that.
SPEAKER_05So yeah.
SPEAKER_06Well, this is a somber note to end things on. I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_02Like usually we're ending cracking up, and you know what some days it'd be like that.
SPEAKER_06Some days we're actually being reverent. We didn't start out that way. No, we didn't. No, we didn't. But the Holy Spirit's like, I'm gonna flip this around and you guys level. You guys have been a little on the goofy side, and we're gonna we're gonna bring it to a close. You're gonna make you cry. Sorry, sorry, God. He's like, that's what you get for laughing through your prayer in the beginning of the beginning of this podcast. Oh, that'll teach you. Smiting us with tears. He's not, no, he's he'd but he's uh he's allowing for us to be reflective in that like there's joy and there's tears, and there's a season for both, and it's okay to to have thoughtful conversation as well.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah. I love you.
SPEAKER_01I love you. Okay, I'll close in prayer.
Final Prayer And Goodbye
SPEAKER_01Okay, Father God, thank you for thank you for the children, thank you for little children. Thank you for thank you for my children. Thank you for Lena's child and for the children that she did lose. And thank you for listeners out there who maybe have experienced similar situations. And thank you for honoring my being who ended up bringing me to you. So in that I I do see the good and I do see the light. Keep us close to you no matter the situations and no matter the coming out of the moments, or finding you enjoy, enjoy his times. We need you always we love you always.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for all our many blessings. In Jesus' name. Amen.
SPEAKER_06Amen. Alright, till next time. We are the Lyric and the Light.
SPEAKER_02I was gonna say, what are we? Leon. We are Leon. We are Dion and Leon.
SPEAKER_06The Lyric and the Light. We love you, and we'll see you very soon. Have a good week. Bye.
SPEAKER_00Can a melody change your perspective? Can a single verse light your path? Can a melody change your perspective? Can a single verb?