Room to Think

The Emotional Life of Wood

• hello@roomtothinkpodcast.com • Season 1 • Episode 2

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What if the most beautiful parts of your home are the ones that survived the most stress? We sit down with sculptor and designer Miriam Carpenter to explore how wood records its life in burl, spalting, mineral streaks, and movement—and why those marks of strain feel so human. Miriam shares how she begins with concept before choosing a material, letting the season of her life dictate whether she turns to wood, bronze, or clay. From a floating table that honors a fallen tree’s resilience to side tables that reveal hidden complexity only when you kneel and look closely, her work invites a slower, more attentive way of seeing.

We also talk stewardship and sourcing. Miriam partners with local lumber brokers who mill trees only after they’ve fallen or been responsibly removed, keeping a living chain of trust and history intact. Some pieces come from centuries-old oaks, transforming dormant giants into objects that breathe in new spaces. Along the way, we unpack the emotional difference between handmade and mass-produced furniture. Fast design isn’t just an aesthetic problem—it can dull our sense of meaning. Handmade objects carry human signatures that we can feel; they teach us to slow down, repair, and reconnect. Natural light, honest materials, and clutter-free surfaces become tools for mental clarity and everyday calm.

If you want an immediate shift, start with one small act: choose a handmade item you already own and give it care—oil a wooden bowl, dust a beloved mug, or move a crafted piece into the center of your daily view. That single gesture can spark a repair culture at home and reset your relationship with your space. Press play to learn how resilience in trees mirrors resilience in people, and how design choices can nurture well-being, attention, and belonging. If this conversation resonates, subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who loves spaces with soul.

Lyssia:

How would you describe the work you do and the materials you work with? I'm a problem solver.

Miriam:

I was exposed to a wood shop early on and was drawn to wood because it was a material that felt both ancient and endlessly alive. In every single piece of wood, you can see these stories. You ever feel bad that that tree was chopped down for you? I sourced my wood locally from lumber brokers that collect trees after they've fallen. Handmade objects are powerful, energetic educators.

Lyssia:

What's the oldest piece of wood that you worked with? After this episode, you're never going to look at your coffee table the same way again. I'm sitting down with an insanely talented artist and sculptor, Miriam Carpenter, in which she explains is mind-blowing. The beauty we're drawn to in wood doesn't come from perfection. It actually comes from pressure, damage, disease, and survival. And once you hear this, you're gonna start seeing the same pattern everywhere. Miriam breaks down why beauty isn't polished or perfect. It's forged over time in trees, in objects, and in people. Let's get into it. Hi Miriam. Welcome to the show. I am so excited to have this conversation. Quick backstory Miriam and I met at Design Week, Miami, and we actually met when my brother, who is also my business partner, floated onto the booth that Miriam was sitting at, and a beautiful coffee table actually caught his eye. That's why he wandered over there and I followed him. And I decided to sit down because my feet were tired, and we started chatting. And within the first five minutes of our conversation, we already discovered three things. The first is that gorgeous coffee table is your work of art, which is impeccable. The second is that you are from Philadelphia or the suburbs. And as we established, the suburbs of Philly are Philly, as am I, South Jersey, but went to school in Philly and lived there a while. And the third is that not only are you an incredible artist, you're an incredible thinker. In those five minutes of our conversation, you're, I just got a glimpse into all the insight you have on materials and wood. And and just I'm still thinking about that conversation. So I was itching to get you on the podcast. And I'm so happy you're here. Welcome to the show.

Miriam:

Thank you. Thank you so much. And it's really a pleasure to be on this um on this show with you.

Lyssia:

To kind of get started, I'd love for my listeners to get to know you in your own words. How would you describe the work you do and the materials you work with?

Miriam:

I'm a problem solver. So, and how I describe my process and my work is constantly evolving as I'm figuring out why I do what I do, why I work the way that I do, why I produce the projects that I do. And I think it all kind of distills down to drawing connections between things, between materials and ideas and place and time. And I have lots of ideas for things, but not all of those things. I won't dedicate my time to making whatever it is, even if the idea is really, really strong. We create things in the world as a way of externalizing internal thoughts and feelings. And there's something very precious about things that we love and are passionate about. And we don't want that to get twisted in any sort of ways. I guess formally I would describe my work as it's primarily wood. Um, I have a zeal for exploring material and concept through other techniques or um with using metal or clay or something else, if that can translate the idea more effectively, um, or if I need that type of process in my life at that time. Um but sculpture, functional sculpture, the function, if I add a function, a traditional function like it being a table or it being something else that is that has a use, you know, that people can say, okay, I I I understand this in this way. Um, oftentimes I'll do that just to add another layer on top of what I'm making. And I think, you know, I think things are valuable whether they're whether they're functional or non-functional, they all serve a function emotionally. Um so sculptor, artist, creative individual, problem solver, thinker. Can I add that to the list? Sure. Yes. Lots of thinking. A good thinker.

Lyssia:

Good thinker. I mean, that's so true what you say that what we express on the outside is really what's going on in the inside. Is that what you feel like artists really like so much of their work is an expression of everything going on up top?

Miriam:

That is something that people, you know, people know that, right? They know that they're interested in a lot of times the story that goes along with a piece, or just to get a little more insight or peripheral insight to what the object means or what the person was thinking at the time. And that sometimes I think can be a little intimidating. And I I think I'm okay with it now. This is another added benefit of getting older and just like, oh, you know what? That's okay. You don't need to overthink how somebody is going to interpret something, but for a while, like naming things. I didn't want to put my experience on something that was, once it's out of my hands, is open to some other interpretation. It might hold more meaning and more value with another person that can connect on it in a way that you weren't even anticipating. You're in control of making the thing as it's under your care. But then after you finish the piece and put it out there, it can take on new meaning. It can, you know, and and that's not up to you. Sure, sure.

Lyssia:

That's interesting that you say that because we had an artist, Adam Tress, on our podcast, and he also said the same thing. He's a painter, and he says, I can create whatever I want, but once it's out of my hands, it's in someone else's home, that's their story. And it doesn't, it's it's out of my control. And it should be, right? Because that is their narrative to take on. And so you you work primarily with wood. You said you also work with c clay and and uh and and metal, but what was it about wood that really drew you to working with it?

Miriam:

I've always had uh, I've always been drawn to trees. Um when I when I was growing up, I had a window with a large oak tree outside, and we had a flood lamp in the backyard that would always light the tree up at night. So I'd see it in the, you know, and it was the central part of the yard for tag. It was home base, you know, it was all of these things. Um, it was way too big to climb, although I did I did try, but you know, you'd get a couple feet off and that's it. Um so I think that probably had an impact on me, not you know, subconsciously, um, because it was an anchor in my life. Um, and I used to pretend that it was the you know, the grandfather tree of the whole neighborhood and look up as I'm walking home from school. Oh, there's my tree, there's my home base. There's grandpa. There he is. Um and uh, but I was lucky enough to go to a um, well, my grandfather carved signs, so I also got an experience. He had a smokehouse um and uh smoked meats and cheeses, and I love cheese probably as much as I love wood. Um both of those wonderful things with visiting Grandpa Carpenter. Um, so I was exposed to a wood shop um early on, and it always was associated with um, you know, I was always excited to go there and um make forts with my cousins and peep in the wood shop and smell the aromas of whatever wood was being cut and um lean my head up over the workbench and see what he was working on, what sign he was working on. But I also was fortunate enough to have a woodworking program in my middle school and then high school. There were a couple classes we could take, but my wood shop teacher and my art teacher were very supportive, and they knew they were only, you know, two like art one or art two, wood shop one or two, um, and allowed me to cut programs and keep taking those. And um, and I and he had the wood that was uh available for the students, and then his special wood. And I would always look in the scrap special wood bin and see all these pieces that were discarded that were swirly and had different grain patterns, textures. Um, and I remember I don't know where I got this piece of cherry, but I used to have this piece of cherry that was um really rough but really figured, and I put it under my bed and I would just pull it out and I would look at it and then I would put it back. But it was one of my special things, and it was just this little piece of cherry that I just had. And I knew and I was knew that one day I was gonna make something for I have no idea where this cherry is, unfortunately. It might still be there. I mean, in my parents' home. But when I got to school, I just I I studied um industrial design at RISD. I was fascinated with the program, learning how things worked, um, learning how to make different things. I was just fascinated with the curriculum and was drawn to wood because it was something, it was a material that felt both ancient and endlessly alive. It in every single piece of wood you can see if you learn about trees and about um and about wood and how they're formed, you start to see these these stories. Um what the figuring or burling happening because of pathogens that were present in the soil, or other microbial um activity in the soil, or what um minerals were there to uh create certain colors and aromas, and um just really the more and more I started to learn about wood, the more and more fascinated um and interested I became. And it's a material that will move. It's not great sometimes when you really want something, you know, something to stay nice and straight, and then it starts to twist or it starts to move, but um, it has a life that it continues to change um the material. It's hydroscopic. So if it's in a dry environment, it might shrink or it might swell or um it ages with um oxidation, it patinas a different color. Um and it becomes better with age, where a lot of materials, I mean some materials too, will corrode or will patina naturally. Um, but a lot of times that those those changes are really slow and incremental over time. Um whereas wood is just each each tree, each piece of wood acts differently. Um and after school, I um I worked with Mira Nakoshima at uh at George Nakoshima Woodworkers in New Hope, which is why I'm still in the Bucks County area. And there I really had uh a great um education in learning about trees from all over the world. These giant, massive, sleeping, uh majestic beings that were in the uh that are still in the lumber sheds there. So and drawing all of them at 16th scale and trying to map out where in history when when this cut happened, or what, you know, was is there buckshot, you know, buckshot in the in the tree, or little slashes, or um branch being cut and healed over and what that does to the um how the tree recovers. It's pretty. I went down a no, I love that.

Lyssia:

I love that you talk about trees with such passion, and it's it's so inspiring because I'm a plant person too. I love plants. I love, I think they have all sorts of energies, and trees are just these well, first of all, they're magnificent. I I love them. There's this place I really want to go in Northern California called Giant Forest. I'm pretty sure it's called Giant Forest because of these massive trees. Do you ever feel bad about using like a piece of wood, or do you see it in a different, like you're creating something new out of it? Do you ever feel bad that that tree was chopped down for you?

Miriam:

I use wood that um I source my wood locally from lumber brokers that collect trees after they've fallen. So I am you so the place in Bucks County, he started as a um as a tree guy, going around and trimming trees and saving, you know, um allowing them to get healthier or um and then um was asked to cut down trees after they had died or they were removed from a property because somebody didn't want the tree there or it was failing or whatever, and then um started uh milling those logs. And so a lot of the a lot of the wood that I use comes from um comes from him and comes from other people that um also do a similar sort of thing. So it's done responsibly. I trust those people. Um oftentimes they'll know uh where uh where the wood comes from, specifically like, oh, this one was right on you know Lake Galena, or this one was, you know.

Lyssia:

So cool. So cool. Because you're giving life to that tree that the tree's life ended in some some way, and you're really putting it into a space, you're giving it a continued life. What's the oldest tree that you worked with, the oldest piece of wood that you worked with?

Miriam:

It's a really good one. I do have some wood drawing that's up at the top of the hill from a I think 400 year old oak. What that one of my lumber brokers gave me a little special outside cuts for feathers. Wow, that's insane.

Lyssia:

You're working with a piece of history. I know that's like these trees have been more than any human alive on this earth has. Yeah, the amount of wars they've been through, the amount of like insane. If trees could talk, man, if trees could talk, they would have some stories to tell. Your artist statement mentions what's often hidden. What are some emotional rhythms or subtle cues you pay attention at to as you're choosing a piece of wood to work with? Do you have some kind of ritual that you are drawn to as you know, as you're picking, or it sounds like you're very intentional about what you pick, what piece of wood you work with? So do you have some something you do, something that draws you to it? How do you decide?

Miriam:

I think it goes back to the you know, the the the way that I approach any idea in making. So it all kind of sometimes there is a concept. Most of the time there's a concept that precedes material. And that and that concept also kind of works together with technique or practice or how I want to live the next few months. So if it is if I need to work small or if I need to invite collaboration or go to someone else's shop, or kind of cleanse my palate and create an opening for learning something new, going back to beginner's mind, so that I can break free of conditioned ways of thinking about my work and my practice. That informs what material I'll work with. So, I mean, there are sometimes I'll say I'm really interested in uh really interested in working with bronze, or I'm really interested in working with this, and then I'll curate that that project around that desire and make sure that it has enough to hold it. For instance, the the coffee table, that was, I came out of a few months of writing and writing and thinking and developing an idea for a project that I think might take a few years of investigation. And I was, I just wanted to work with wood that had a story of resilience. I mean, I talk about, I've been talking about this this whole time, and I just wanted to distill that down and say, I just want, I want to find, I want to make something that just elevates this piece of wood that honors the life of this tree, that tells a story, that shows, you know, a tree that was formed because of the way that the tree survived through being exposed to pathogens with the burrels, you know, creating burrels and the spalting that showed that the different these different species of mushrooms were feeding off of the nutrients in the tree. Um, and it wasn't just the white rot mushrooms that was the ones that create the yellow spalting in the greens, like elf cup and um just lifting that up, just elevating that up in a way that made the piece appear to float. And so the the formal aspects were considered around that idea and around that kind of that mission. So um but some sometimes I will there's a table that I made or a set of side tables that are there they're painted and they have different each side is different it appears the outside shaping is the same on all sides but because of the technique that I used in designing it of turning it on the lathe and rotating some of the quadrants um you know 90 degrees and another um half 180 degrees and putting it back together the pattern appeared complex in a way that um a lot of the plants that are growing will kind of uh uh appear you know what in their their growth starts out simple you know and then it evolves to more complexity over time um the concept of that piece came first and a lot of I hold a practice every April going out and after a long winter and just observing the the ephemerals coming up and a lot of those little ephemerals you have to get down to the ground and look with intention and you can also just walk by and chat with your friend or to look up at the sky and you can miss them. And so I wanted to create a piece that allowed someone a similar experience. So the inside is highly polished the outside isn't so in order to appreciate it you'd need to get down on the ground the way that you would as you're going through the woods get down on the ground and appreciate it and then replicate that as something simple that was then turned rotated to appear complex and then took that pattern that bird's eye cross section pattern and replicated that over the entire surface. So if you don't walk around the piece you miss it. If you don't look get down to the ground you miss it. And so the material for that was I wanted something stable I wanted something light I wanted something so that was about you know the concept and the technique and the formal aspects of that piece drove the the material choice.

Lyssia:

Sounds like a metaphor to life you know the if you if you don't look you're gonna miss it. You're tapping the front of your and there's so much that's always going on in the natural world that as humans we just completely miss. Right? These trees are fighting for their lives and and can you can you define for me I I don't really know what this means I'm assuming but the barreling and squirreling you said what were the words you said of what the fungus was doing the barrowing and squirreling what does that mean so if you can see that so this is a burrow.

Miriam:

Why in here very cool it's like a benign tumor okay so the grain direction is going all when it when a tree grows the grain is vertical and this is this disrupts that um architecture and creates a really beautiful really beautiful patterning. And then this is spalting in there that I was talking about. Spalting that's what it was that's spalting. And what in the spot fungus so if you see a a mushroom growing on a tree um it might be causing you know spalting within the within the grain. Wow and the burl is also caused by fungus pathogen of some sort microorganism disease stress and so we look at that and we we see something beautiful and it also I mean it's powerful to me because it shows that beauty you know beauty is not something that's pristine it's something that's forged through relationship and time and resilience. And the the tree overcame so much in its life and we look at it and we go oh my goodness that is gorgeous. And I think that's true for really everything in in the world like people become beautiful when you see how they move through the world the decisions that they make um what what they have overcome.

Lyssia:

And how do you think mass-produced furniture is is changing our relationship versus slow furniture because the the the furniture you're creating is art and anyone who takes into consideration wood even 10% of how you look at it is creating something totally different than the mass produced furniture out there. How do you think handmade objects and slow craft really change the way that we show up in our lives and how we appear because I feel like there's so many metaphors connecting this to life and and the things that we surround ourselves with are really us from the inside out.

Miriam:

I think that's a that's a tricky one because like mass production has has a place in this world because a lot of times you you don't you don't have the unless you really value the handmade and value value it what we do you know as as creative individuals um and and have a budget for that to replace things in your life a lot of people don't have that they don't value it enough to allocate funds for that and not everybody can afford handmade things um to fill their space um I wish that mass produced pieces would you know that that they would be made better um so that it wasn't kind of fast fashion I think that that doesn't have a place you know like a something that is thoroughly thought through with um joinery that is you know built relatively quickly on a large scale um you know has a place it's unfortunate and it's I don't like the things that are just made to satisfy kind of a throwaway consumerist culture that will have a limited lifespan and necessitate having to replace and throw away I hope that we can kind of with everything with our world becoming so overstimulated I hope that we can find the meaning and the value and the grounding emotionally grounding quality I guess ability quality that handmade pieces have. They can really and like they can I think that they can regulate some of that kind of chaos and stress that we experience we don't realize we're experiencing when we surround ourselves with mass-produced things.

Lyssia:

I hope that we return to a but you would have to have a well-made thing in your life to be able to repair it but I think a culture where we where we repair pieces um care for objects that are handmade as opposed to just throwing them away tell me more about that grounding do you feel like having these pieces of furniture in your home creates grounding on uh on a level that on a subconscious level perhaps like is this seeping into our lives the mass produced like let me throw it out and just get a new one concept yeah I think that handmade objects are powerful energetic edic educators they they teach us every every stroke every cut every every decision is a signature on that and that and if they're they're imbued they're objects that aren't just you know objects but they're imbued with heart and soul and a life that's viscerally connected to us and there's there's meaning in making and that that meaning is then carried through in the objects and into our homes there's history a lot of times you know if if you curate your space with things that are handmade you'll remember you'll remember meeting who made it or you'll remember the you know making the decision to um live in a way that is that encourages a way a type of careful thoughtful honest very insightful I think that you're putting words to things that I couldn't explain because there's a reason why when I was uh furnishing my house I was going to thrift stores because I wanted things that had life and a story and things that didn't look like everything else. And it's almost kind of very similar in line with what you're saying in the sense of when we know that something is mass produced, we we don't value it as much, that's for sure. And it doesn't have a story like I bought this online and I can replace it in a second like it's you don't have that life and most of the time it's not even living things which is crazy right it looks like wood but it's plastic or it's laminate and and and those things have those materials have their places but wow when when something has a life and you know that that piece of furniture has has lived 400 years before you even showed up on this earth like that's crazy.

Miriam:

There's a lot of embodied energy there's nothing scientific that can that that I've found that can back it because I um you know I've looked like because there are things that you see I mean you can have and I've seen it I've actually seen it a chair that is uh that was handmade and a chair that um was licensed for production that was not made mostly by hand and um you can you can see you can see and feel that that the difference of energy but there's nothing I don't know I don't know why that is um or I can't explain it so I don't want to try to talk about I don't know science or something but but you do feel it you do and yeah you do feel it and I don't know if that is just the the embodiment the signature the human signature that we recognize on some uh fundamental level it's the imperfectness maybe in it that we really are drawn to if you can imagine an ideal environment for mental uh well-being and creative inspiration what are the elements that you would have in that space well I think light I think light is very important having natural light bringing the outside in that expands what a space can hold I think natural materials if you can't do that I mean if you can do both if you can bring bring natural materials inside and light and outside in um I think that would be also I mean my whole space here is made of wood it's all it's all wood um and natural materials um I don't like clutter so for me having a space that is carefully curated sometimes I'll go through periods of moving things around looking at a space in terms of what uh what textures are around me what colors are around me what complements a warm rich you know uh brown cherry tone what creates more openness in a space I'll I like to I live in a very small very small environment but um the things that I value I'll give them room so clearing off a surface and allowing something with space um a little sacred space and I do have a very cluttered desk natural colors tones objects that are meaningful and um no no excess I agree and I mean it's I'm sure there are studies around it but when I find that when my space is a mess my my head is a mess. I can't function and when you clear it instantly when I clear it it's like I can think clearly again yeah so more things that we can't quite put our finger on but we feel as human yeah we do and you carry you carry too everything everything that's in your space you carry it and it it it has to be a decision is this a is this a you know is this a burden is it a burden to carry all of this stuff you know what is worth it and really looking at a space and considering what holds value what um what makes me feel like I'm bringing spirituality into my life um what what gives me a sense of belonging connection in the world and I think going back to what we were saying before with the stories you know these these things hold value because they create a point of connection and a point of belonging and I think that if we encourage that you know the it and incur and and invite that into our lives the world is going to be a better place.

Lyssia:

I knew this was going to be a great conversation it is good.

Miriam:

When you teach your mentor others what are some core lessons beyond technique that you hope they take with them I think this is this is all following this this thread here it's all kind of um I think that that is um maybe not getting too caught up in the preciousness of the thing that you're making but also loving what you do loving and caring about what you do with every fiber of your being there's we think about love you know and care and um you know compassion or things of that nature as soft but I don't think that there's anything more powerful than caring about something believing in something and loving something and if you can give I think if my students can give or anyone um can give themselves to an idea to whatever you're making it's gonna change you you know it's gonna change you and for the better. It's really profound.

Lyssia:

So for listeners that want to bring more intention and connection into their lives in a very short amount of time let's say within a week but they can't do more than change one thing what practical shift would you recommend they make to feel that immediately to feel the changes immediately in their space and going on with our convers uh conversation about intention and connection and really feeling grounded what would you recommend this is a practical show at the end of the day.

Miriam:

So advice yeah I mean I think that there are a number of things that you could do. You could start by identifying the things that are handmade that you own already that you have in your space and care for them. So even acknowledging what you have whether it's a mug or whether it's a bowl or whatever it is and if it's wood and it wants some oil or something give it a little bit of nourishment um or dust it or give it a prominent place. Declutter is another one you know get choose objects that resonate with you and give them a prominent space um where you normally will you know settle or move in your house or if you have an office and you have something in front of your desk area or in your kitchen or wherever you frequent most, you know, give give an object a prime location for you to enjoy it.

Lyssia:

That's good advice.

Miriam:

What is a space past or present that has changed who you are as a person that's changed you well the space and experience I did a series of residencies um one of them was in Tasmania with uh artist Peter Adams and at Wingrove and he was the custodian of this or steward of this large property on the Tasman Peninsula and artists would stay in the peace bus and it was a converted bus that was very tiny. So it only had the essential things that you needed. So a bed in the back, a tiny little stove, a little chair, and a little wood stove. And because it was a bus, the windows are panoramic and it was just a view of the gardens, the ocean. Um and the outside was in, the bathroom was outside, the shower was an outside shower. So it really was an environment that you were cozy and protected in this bus, but you had essential things, and we're just living, you know, in in nature. Um, so that was pretty that was pretty profound. And the experience overall being with him was profound. Um I think working at Nakoshima too, um designing in the Konoid studio and uh just being in that space and that 40 by 40 span and looking out down the hill in a room that was filled with handmade furniture that in a building that was handmade, and sitting in a chair that was handmade, working on a desk that was handmade, doing hand drawings.

Lyssia:

Wow, and that you feel like that's changed you as a person, and it's changed your outlook on how you approach your craft. Wow. Yeah. Were your pencils handmade? Because I've seen those wooden suits.

Miriam:

Yes, yeah.

Lyssia:

No. I did woodworking in high school too, and that's what we made. Yeah. Looking ahead, based on everything you know, how do you think design is going to evolve in the next decade to better support human well-being?

Miriam:

We're obviously living in a time where it's it's uh overstimulation galore. Um and I think a lot of things that I'm seeing that are produced um are also a little confused. Um and so I hope I hope that design will evolve to help promote emotional well-being in terms, I mean, we have we all know you know, we've been talking about it throughout this podcast. We uh there are all these things that we know to be true, um, with how environment can affect your emotional well-being um and your mental health. And I think over time we'll be able to recognize, you know, what what things really do um support us and how and and hopefully we will reciprocate that. How can we support uh an industry and practice that supports us and have it be a reciprocal kind of um relationship? And and also hopefully with with the making or making of objects um and environments that are thoughtful um and well crafted, it also creates an opportunity to be able to fix things, you know. Um, so it's not just trash after it's broken and that it's less likely to break because it's made well. And so maybe a repair culture.

Lyssia:

Miriam, it's been amazing talking to you. I just had a feeling this conversation would be incredible and it's for by far surpass what I even expected it, where I expected it to go. I'm so appreciative for your time. Thank you for coming on this podcast and sharing your wisdom with us and sharing your passion for wood with us. I'm so excited to continue following your work and seeing your beautiful, beautiful creations and taking a lot of the insight you've you've shared with me and us all today and using it in my life. So thank you so much, Miriam. I'm I'm very grateful to have met you.

Miriam:

Thank you. I'm grateful for as well. This has been wonderful.

Lyssia:

Thank you so much for spending this time with me on Room to Think. If you enjoyed this episode, feel free to follow the show, subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who you think would really appreciate a more thoughtful approach to their space. You can find more Design Meets Psychology insights on social, in our community, and definitely in upcoming episodes so you can build a better life by design. Thanks again for listening. I'll see you next time.