Room to Think

Our Prehistoric Brains at Home

• Lyssia Katan • Season 1 • Episode 5

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Ever walked into a beautiful room and felt strangely tense? We dig into why spaces that photograph well can still exhaust your brain—and how small, science-backed changes can flip a room from draining to restorative. With Dr. Sally Augustin, environmental psychologist and author of Designology, we unpack how design cues shape stress, focus, creativity and the way we treat each other.

We start with clutter and minimalism, revealing how both visual overload and visual scarcity strain attention. From there, we map out biophilic design in practical terms: one plant per sightline, real materials like wood with visible grain, and the “meadow on a spring day” test to balance calm with gentle richness. We break down the hidden cost of glare, why matte beats mirror shine, and how shiny hospital floors can even change how people walk. Then we get tactical with light: cooler, brighter overhead light for analysis; warmer, dimmer lamps for creativity and connection; and the habit shift that gets blinds back up to restore daylight benefits.

Behavior shifts come from seating and layout too. A thin cushion softens negotiations. A slight recline lowers arousal in tough talks. Round and oval tables reduce hierarchy signals, while moving chairs off the short ends of a rectangle makes conversation more equal. Orientation matters: give people a backstop and a view to reduce vigilance and distraction. We also tackle sound the realistic way—open offices fail when speech bleeds into focus zones. Very soft nature sounds can mask language without feeling manipulative, and subtlety is the rule for any scent or sound if you want buy-in.

Culture and language shape form preferences more than we think—curves often feel welcoming, sharp right angles signal speed—so context matters, especially when people are under stress. And throughout, we keep perspective: design is powerful, but it works best alongside aligned incentives and real knowledge. The takeaway is simple and freeing—design for your inner chipmunk, aim for the meadow, place light like the sun, and ignore trends that fight human nature.

If this conversation sparked ideas, follow and subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who could use a calmer, smarter space.

Dr. Sally Augustin:

The glare is very stressful for us in hospitals. The floors are very shiny. People get the impression that they might be wet and therefore slippery. Then they start to walk in some sort of odd way. When a space feels common versus stressful, what's actually happening in the green? People are really cool puzzles. We are so smart, but so complicated.

Lyssia Katan:

We think we're such evolved creatures.

Dr. Sally Augustin:

But we're really just as we are stressed by too much going on around us visually, we're also stressed by too little going on.

Lyssia Katan:

Friends are cool, but welcome to Room to Think. Today I'm sitting down with Dr. Semily Augustine. She is the author of the book Designology and also one of the leading experts on how our environments shape how we think, feel, and behave. If certain spaces make you feel tense, tired, or unfocused for no reason that you can really put your finger on, there's actually a scientific explanation for that. By the end of this episode, you'll understand the science-backed reasons why clutter drains your focus, why glare makes you irritable, and why shining floors feel so stressful, often without you realizing it. Doctor on the scene shares extremely practical changes you can make in your home and your workspace immediately. Things like how to use color to reduce stress, and why small details like chair cushions can change how people communicate. This episode is fascinating. I know you're going to love it. And by the end, perhaps we'll stop chasing trends and finally start designing spaces that support your brain and those of the people around you. Let's get into it. Dr. Sally Augustine, what an absolute honor having you on the show. Thank you so much for being here. Well, thank you for inviting me. You are just such a brain of knowledge. You've done so much research, and I've I've read your books. You're the author of Designology. Augustine is an environmental psychologist, and she also has written a ton of books, done a ton of research. And I was so excited when she agreed to be on the podcast because I'm a huge fan. So welcome to Room to Think.

Dr. Sally Augustin:

Well, thank you for having me.

Lyssia Katan:

For listeners who may be familiar with design, but not exactly with environmental psychology. How would you usually explain the work you do and why you do it?

Dr. Sally Augustin:

Environmental psychologists are the people in the scientific world who think about how the physical and virtual worlds in which people find themselves influence how those individuals think and behave. So I um consult with people worldwide and I'll talk to uh groups, individuals about things like um how they can design a space so it's more likely that people in it will think creatively, um, how they can um select colors that will make it a um uh people a little less stressed when they're waiting for a medical procedure, you know, all those kinds of things. I mean, uh, you know, logically, you had you know you had to know that there were some people out there who were interested in how the physical world and design influenced what goes on in our heads. And um, environmental psychologists are those people.

Lyssia Katan:

Was there a moment in your life that you decided this is what I want to do?

Dr. Sally Augustin:

Yeah, uh there was there was a moment. I I've always been very interested in uh people. And um I was an economics major as an undergrad at Wellesley and um went to Northwestern right away and got an MBA where I majored in finance and marketing, and I happened to be become involved in retail design projects as, you know, the sort of management person, you know, because I don't have any design training. And I became so interested in how uh, you know, use of colors in different locations or design elements in stores, et cetera, influenced how people moved to the store, what they bought, whether they recommend the store to their friends, et cetera. I found that also fascinating that eventually I decided to go back to school and get a PhD in environmental psych. And as education should, um, going back to school really broadened my horizons. So now I do do retail design projects, but I probably spend even more of my time thinking about things like workplace design and the design of healthcare environments, you know, schools, et cetera, because you know the there are very some variations from place to place in terms of what you're trying to achieve, et cetera. But you know, you put the same human brains in the same locations and they're in different locations, and there's got to be some commonalities.

Lyssia Katan:

So and uh in your work with um design with science, that is your company, correct?

Dr. Sally Augustin:

Sure. Yeah.

Lyssia Katan:

It's taken you all over the world to work on all different types of product projects. Uh is there a specific project that you really stand out to you or something that really you saw a huge transformation?

Dr. Sally Augustin:

You know, well, first of all, it's important to uh mention that I sign NDAs for almost all of the work that that I do. Um uh so it's hard to talk about the details of very specific projects, but I can tell you over and over again that uh that um the kind of science we're talking about applying does pay off. Um and um once people like once clients are involved in one project in which this science is applied, they're really interested in um using it in the in the in the future. And uh because I do like to have some things I can talk about. I do do um projects on my own from from time to time that are like entirely self-funded. So I own them, if you will. And um uh, you know, a lot of the work that I've been doing relatively recently has to do with the design of spaces where people are more likely to think creatively. And you know, when you give people instantaneous tests of creativity in a space that doesn't align with the research, and then in the space that aligns with the research, you find that you know people's creativity will go up significantly when you apply the things environmental psychologists have learned about design and um and uh you know problem solving. How do you measure that? How do you measure someone's creative? Traditionally, uh creativity was measured with questions that asked people about their um creative performance generally, but that doesn't do you much good when you're um trying to decide if people are more creative in a space with like green walls or blue walls. So um, you know, I nose around and there are tests of instantaneous creativity out there where you can, you know, there are tests even can be machine um scored uh that you can give people in one place and then in another place and look at the difference between those two places and and determine differences therefore in creative performance.

Lyssia Katan:

I see. So it's not like they're just they have more inclination to draw or paint in one room.

Dr. Sally Augustin:

No, no, I'm not interested so much in then that kind of thing. And also I made the point that the there are tests out there that are machine scored because another thing, another way creativity has often been tested in the past is um at like to give people a list of stuff and ask them to come up with uses for the various things on the list, et cetera. And then those lists have been um judged to see how creative the responses are. And you know, that's a real hassle. You have to get in all those people who to judge. You know, it's it it's um it's not like cumbersome, it's time consuming, it's more expensive, et cetera. So, you know, there are you know tests that um don't involve that panel of judges that will allow you to set assess creativity in different places that are really handy.

Lyssia Katan:

Wow, that's fascinating. I never knew that.

Dr. Sally Augustin:

Oh, yeah, no, it's it's really cool. I mean, you know, a lot of people, I mean, just think of the millions of people worldwide who have PhDs in psychology. They all had to do some project. So, you know, often those projects involve developing a test. So pretty much anything you can imagine wanting to test can be tested in a rigorous way. You just have to know what sort of terms to use and what databases to access to find it.

Lyssia Katan:

So one of the tests that you discuss um in your book, Designology, is it's not quite a test, but something you discuss is stress factor, correct? In uh the effect of stress and clutter on a space. When a space feels calming versus stressful, what's actually happening in the brain when it comes to physiology?

Dr. Sally Augustin:

When a space is cluttered, for example, a lot of our mental processing power, our ability to pay attention, et cetera, is siphoned off and not available for the task at hand. Um, you know, uh this an explanation for what I'm about to say goes back to our early days as a species, but what I'm about to say also can't be um determined via experimental research or anything like that. But, you know, something that makes sense is all goes back to um, you know, our really very early stays as a species. We would um have needed to continually survey our environment to make sure danger wasn't approaching. And actually, you find out when you test people, you know, we are always looking around wherever we are. You know, we're not necessarily consciously aware of that, um, but but we are. And when um a place is cluttered, you know, visually cluttered, as we're discussing at the moment, spaces visually cluttered, it's it's harder for us to review our environment. We have more things we have to check out and decide if they're dangerous or not, etc. And um so you know, we only have a certain amount of uh uh our brains can only do so much at any one time. And if they're trying to decide if something you're looking at is dangerous or not, they're not like coming up with um cool new advertising slogan or um uh you know developing some sort of spreadsheet sheet that you need it, et cetera. At least you know their full attention isn't focused on that um uh slogan or that spreadsheet. So, you know, uh what we can say now is that clutter distracts us from the task at hand. It all relates to the amount of attention you know we can pay to any at any one time. And um, you know, we have to remember that even those people will often um uh claim that you know they're not so distracted by various things or stressed by some various things, or they're able to block out various things that are going on in the world around them. Well, really that's that's that's not the case because you know we're still using the brains now that we were tens and thousands of generations ago, and tens of thousands of generations ago, we weren't really that much different from, say, a chipmunk in terms of what we had to do to survive. You know, chipmunks are social animals like we are, so you know, this you know, we were we were socializing with with others of our kind, but you know, like what what can a chipmunk do when a dog or a wolf approaches? All they can do is like hide or run. They have to know that wolf is coming. And that kind of attention, that kind of continuing attention, is hardwired into us and will remain the same. That will remain the same for oh so many generations to come, you know, brains change slowly.

Lyssia Katan:

Is that connected to uh what you wrote in the book where humans are equally stressed in arid landscapes as they are in jungles? Does the jungle kind of have water where the arid there's no protection?

Dr. Sally Augustin:

Right, that's the kind of thing that gets involved. Um you know, in in a and also often in an arid environment, it can vary from space to space or place to place, obviously. But um just as we are stressed by too much going on around us visually, we're also stressed by too little going on around us. And um so you know, what we normally think of is is clutter, is uh negative, you know, extra books and you know, tchotchkis and stuff like that. That that that that will stress us out, but so will uh being around none of that stuff. You know, that is again, that isn't the kind of environment in which we began as a species. You know, a lot of um what is important in my world can get really uh uh boiled down to you're trying to create a meadow on a lovely spring day. When we were in long, long ago, when we were in a meadow on a lovely spring day, we had um uh the mental capacity not only to be creative, which we've been talking about, but um to socialize pleasantly with other people, um uh to um do all sorts of things that require concentration, focus, etc. And um uh when we're not in a pleasant environment of that sort, you know, you know, we're distracted, negative things happen. So when we think about this meadow on a lovely spring day, we're really thinking about what people in my world call biophilic design, which is um creating spaces that, for example, are filled with um glare-free natural light and natural materials, and at least like about one plant in every sight line across an environment. You don't want too many plants because that's stressful, that amps up the visual complexity, as we've been talking about. You know, um nature sounds when they're played very, very quietly, are um great for people um uh feeling less stressed and for their cognitive performance to improve. For example, so you know, if you if if you think of a meadow on a lovely spring day, you get a lot of cues as to how you should design for people today, and not only some of the sensory things I've been talking about, but also things like people like to feel safe and secure, but they enjoy having a view out over the world around them, much as we would have, for example, sitting in a tree long ago. This seem this could be why humans seem to have a drive to sleep on in the second story of a building when the second story exists that recreates uh that experience. Or when you go into a restaurant where people can um seat themselves uh and there are booths, you find that the first booths that get taken are those with a um a view to the door of the um of the restaurant, because you know, long, long ago it would have been very handy for us to feel secure, like in a in a booth, something protecting our back, but have a view out over the world around us and an ability to determine if danger was was was approaching. So when in doubt, I think lovely spring day in chipmunk.

Lyssia Katan:

Does that have to do with the wood grain too? Because you said that wood grain.

Dr. Sally Augustin:

Oh yeah, it it all get you know something that I didn't mention that relates to biophilic design is the fact that humans have all sorts of positive responses being around natural materials, which can be um things like leather, which develops a patina over time, copper also develops a patina over time, linen is a natural material, and so is wood with visible grain. And and I um uh really want to drive home the point about visible grain, because once I talked to people about wood and they went off and installed some wood, and I'd also talk to them about color, and they painted the wood. You know, and that's cool. There's a lot of things that you can um uh achieve with with various colors, but you know, the wood unpainted with visible grain, you know, it can be finished, whatever. The main point is that grain has to show. You know, that has a really um uh a special uh power over humans and um how um you know how we live our lives. It's it's it's a it's it's a real positive, you know. There is a limit though. You want about half the surfaces in in a room, and that includes like furniture to be visible wood grain. When you start to go beyond that, your the various effects start to um start start to fade away. So um, you know, wood is good, but too much wood is not so good.

Lyssia Katan:

And while I was reading about the finishes, I also paid attention. I work in tiles. So you had a note about shiny versus matte and how humans prefer matte. How does that connect with the the but they like the patina with leather or copper?

Dr. Sally Augustin:

You you really have an issue with um glare. You know, so you know glare is very stressful for us, so therefore um often matte becomes the way to go because it can help keep the glare in check. And glare can come from natural light, artificial light, it's it's etc. So in fact, you know, in in um hospitals they'll regularly have trouble with um floors that are too shiny because um uh or short floors that are very shiny, because um people um get the impression that they might be wet and therefore slippery, and therefore then they start to walk in some sort of basically odd way because they don't want to slip on the wet floor, and then end up slipping because they're doing something odd, you know, like trying to skate across the floor so they don't fall down or whatever. And since it's the floor is not actually wet, you know, ungood things happen, shall we say?

Lyssia Katan:

Sure, sure. Wow, that that's fascinating. Is that part of the reason why glare stresses us out so much?

Dr. Sally Augustin:

It's it's actually interesting. You know, you know that thing that everybody does when they encounter glare, like their eyebrows come closer together and things like that. Years ago I read a study that when you just ask people to like do that, make that facial expression, they um behave more aggressively. So it it it could be something that's in in inherent. It also could relate to our ability to survey the world around us. Remember, I'm talking about I talked a moment ago about how important that was to us in early as you know, when we were young species and how we continue to look around the world today. Well, you really can't pick out what's going on if you literally can't see it because of a high high amount of glare. So, you know, you know, glare glare is bad, and you know, it's it's it's too bad in many workplaces. People will pull down blinds or close curtains, but usually it's blinds, um uh to um eliminate glare at different times of the day, but because of the nature of how we work and basically people being people, the blinds never come up again. You know, when when the when the sun moves a little bit so that the glare is no longer present, you know, the blinds don't come up. And so then the people who are working away don't have the psychological, you know, emotional cognitive benefits of of of natural light, because once the blinds get pulled, that's it. You know, and sometimes facilities groups have directions so like open the blinds every morning or on some schedule, but not necessarily.

Lyssia Katan:

That only in a home or in an office.

Dr. Sally Augustin:

It changes how our um brains operate. We um are bet are better at problem solving, thinking creatively, um uh interacting pleasantly with other people, etc., in n the natural light, because it elevates our mood. So, you know, that's an effect that's consistent, you know, no matter where you are, you know, whether you're in a workplace, at a home, in in a school auditorium, etc.

Lyssia Katan:

You talk a lot about the little things that can be adjusted. For example, uh you mentioned a study where when the chairs are softer, people are more to negotiate. Can you tell me a little

Dr. Sally Augustin:

Yeah, I mean that's a a really um interesting study. Um, you know, as it turns out, when there's uh just even a little bit of cushioning on a chair, it doesn't have to, you don't have to be in an armchair. A regular chair with, you know, say an inch or so of cushioning will produce this effect. You know, people uh negotiate more pleasantly with with each other and then generally interact more pleasantly with with each other. And it's it's probably um related to comfort, elevating mood, you know. So, you know, if you have in your dining room or you know, kitchen eating nook, whatever, if you have those old-fashioned dining room chairs with the with the hard wooden seats, you probably want to go to all the effort to buy just even the slightest cushions for them, you know, even if your family is not nice, uh neat eaters, you know, whatever, and you have to replace them every so often, it's gonna be worth it. And, you know, the other, I mean, I guess especially if you have like teenagers and things like that who be stress stressing out all all the time. And and the other thing I think is sort of cool uh or another thing I think is sort of cool about um different ways of sitting is when people are reclined a little bit, uh they're not as um stressed out in situations that um as they are when they're sitting upright in a chair. So we're talking about reclining like, you know, like in a traditional like um lazy boy chair, whatever. We're not talking about lying prone. We're talking about, you know, back some with your feet up. So uh regularly I joke that like in any family, when the oldest child gets to be like 12, the parents should buy, you know, whoever the parents are, should each buy themselves like a recliner and just sit them up, set them up and plan to spend lots of time reclined in the recliners when you know your your children you know are moving through their teenage years, maybe a little longer for some. You never you know, some kids take take longer to uh make their parents less concerned than others.

Lyssia Katan:

That's great parenting advice. I don't think any I don't know if any listener is is here for parenting advice, but there it is.

Dr. Sally Augustin:

Get yourself some and I don't and I don't own stock in Lazy Boy. You know, it doesn't have to even be Lazy Boy. Yeah, you know, it's just like your back a little bit off 90 degrees, your feet up, that'll do it, you know, and you'll um, you know, it things will go better. Stressful situation.

Lyssia Katan:

Your body, just like we're relaxing, we're gonna take things in a more yeah.

Dr. Sally Augustin:

Uh you know, I don't think they uh have determined, you know, exactly what it is in terms of like blood moving more easily to your legs or something, so therefore you're more relaxed. Whatever. There's no finding that I know of like that that we that links to these other studies. But you know, in a recliner is a good way to go if you think you might be upset in the near future. Like head to your recliner, make it your first priority. Get your apartment to the recliner, also. Tell your children that they should only talk to you in the recliner or when you're in the recliner, whatever. You know, you wondered why you know your your grandparents had those ugly chairs. Traditionally they were so ugly, you know, and they also traditionally were so worn out. Well, that's because people were in them all the time. Like it's better in a recliner, you know.

Lyssia Katan:

So if you need to have a tough conversation with someone, you make sure they're sitting down in a recliner first.

Dr. Sally Augustin:

Yeah, there we go. Or um, you know, I actually years ago, there was a picture that was um making the rounds of, I think it was a Google conference room in somewhere in Europe. It might have been in one of their Swiss offices, where everybody at the meeting was in a recliner. Yes, there's the way to go.

Lyssia Katan:

So is that something that's done, because you've worked with a lot of workspaces, is that something that's done on purpose to make sure that the employees or the team members or everyone is like like how often are these psychological, I don't want to say tricks, but these psychological elements used in a space to control.

Dr. Sally Augustin:

It really varies a lot from um situation to situation. And um, you know, a lot of it comes down to space, you know, because just for example, you know, recliners probably, you know, it can vary from piece of furniture to piece of furniture, but they probably take up more room. So therefore, it's harder to use them. Where this comes up all the time is um round tables versus rectangular ones. Um you can make a round table really small, but then people can be sort of inappropriately, unnaturally close to each other, like violating each other's personal space. So once you start to make a round table where people's shoulders aren't touching the next person, which is uh only a slight exaggeration, once you start to blow up a round table, it you it starts to eat up a lot more real estate than a rectangular table. And you have to have a much bigger conference room, for example, for the same number of people for a round table as opposed to a rectangular one. Um, you know, and and space is money. Or and the other thing you have to think about is not only space, but what people are used to doing. Like, you know, conference rooms in workplaces have been designed for forever, it seems, to accommodate rectangular tables. So, you know, when people learn about this research, and that you know, once they start to try to work a round table into any place they can find to rent, they have trouble. But you know, the but there's fixes like I have a dining room in which a rectangular table is is basically the way you have to go. But I've moved the chairs from the short end of the short ends of the rectangular table to the long ends, so nobody is actually sitting at the ends of the table, and that goes a long way to creating the sort of egalitarian atmosphere that comes from a round table. It's not perfect because with a rectangular table, you still end up with one group of people, one one side of the table facing directly the other side of the table. But you know, no people on the end. It's a good way to go.

Lyssia Katan:

Is that does that translate to like an eclipse table? Because sometimes a a round, perfectly round, would push and get super wide where you'd have a lot of space across from one another. Does an eclipse eclipse table work?

Dr. Sally Augustin:

You mean like in a shape like a like a uh a moon?

Lyssia Katan:

Or like a long oval? Yes, oval.

Dr. Sally Augustin:

Yeah, oh an oval table. Yeah, an oval table can work really well. It depends um basically how wide the oval is, like how you know the seats at at the end. Generally, it you know, you'd still be trying to avoid people sitting right at the ends because if um they sit right at the ends, you really create the same sort of leader position that you have in a rectangular table. But um, you also have to make sure that towards the ends of the oval table, um, the table remains wide enough for like people to open up their laptops and and and stuff like that. So it can't be like too sharp a point, but if it it's if it's um more gradual, you know, that that that that can work also. And it's interesting to see, you know, what happens to the chairs in in this situation with with an oval table. Like I I know that you know when you take the chairs away from the ends, the short ends of a rectangular table, like the cleaning crew or people at subsequent meetings always seem to try to move them back because often in business situations we're used to having meetings with a clear leader, you know, the the uh not so used to having meetings where you're actually actively trying to get everybody to participate um in in in in in in in a session. So even with the oval tables, you know, you can find people you like moving chairs to you know to those curved bits on on the end, you know, just because they're trying to recreate what they know. But often once people have a few sessions, you know, with nobody at the ends of the tables, they see that the interactions are different. And then the chairs don't make their way back to the short ends of the tables anymore.

Lyssia Katan:

It's just human nature that have.

Dr. Sally Augustin:

Yeah, exactly. Well, people we like the familiar. Like we we like to understand how we're supposed to use the space, you know, and this is particularly important when when people are stressed. They really val, really, really value the familiar then. And often people are stressed in workplace situations, just as they're often stressed in healthcare situations where they're um you know concerned about a test they might be about to have or test results they might be about to learn, etc. So we like a space where we understand how to use it. It's understandable to us, especially when we're going to be stressed. So if you think about like um uh uh like a funeral home, a funeral home where people will be under duress is probably not the good a good time to be doing anything clever from a design perspective. You know, you you you want a chair that looks like you know, other chairs that people have encountered in the past, not a chair that people have to think, how am I gonna, you know, sit down gracefully, get up whatever from from from that chair, you know. So, you know, things must be or should be as expected in a funeral home, but a place where where there'll be um weddings, well, people are in a better mood. They're not except for the bride, people aren't so generally stressed at at a wedding. So you can experiment. You can have to continue with my example, the the chairs that sort of look like maybe they're beanbag chairs, but maybe they're not, and you know, whatever, you know, you can play around with things that are less familiar, such as that, at a wedding venue, not at a funeral home, because of because of the stress factor.

Lyssia Katan:

Wow, that's a great example. And does the because you mentioned the masculine versus feminine of masculine energy in like very sharp objects versus feminine curves, is that put into play to make people feel more comfortable in a space or not?

Dr. Sally Augustin:

Yeah, and and this is um something you're seeing a lot right now in workplace design, um, actually. Um uh you know, when people are more they are more comfortable, more relaxed in places where they're more curving lines than straight lines, and spaces where where there are more straight lines, where the um lines, etc. are likely to come together at um like right angles or something like that. That's the kind of environment we link with efficiency and and and and and action. So I have some excellent photos I took in a Finnish post office several years ago, where every single line, you know, every it was it was actually interesting. It was a post office, it was about the same footprint as an American post office. So it wasn't a kiosk or anything like that. It was actually a post office, but everything was entirely automated. You bought your stamps, you um, if you were uh mailing a package, that was automated also. There was there were different skills and things like that. Anyway, but every single thing was rectilinear, you know. But that is the kind of impression you want to create in a post office. Who wants to spend extra time in a post office? Like who wants to spend extra time in a laundry room, right? You know, not very many of us. Um, but um, you know, we we're apt to have more curving lines in two and three dimensions in in in in our homes, say in the arms of furniture or in patterns that are on walls or or floor or flooring, for example. And um relatively recently in the last five or six years, there's been a lot of uh interest in moving residential type furniture into workplaces. It must be actually a little longer than five years at this point because this was going on before the pandemic, you know, because the uh there was an interest in making workplaces more um welcoming to the people who are in in the spaces. And part of that was coming through this, you know, furniture with like turned down arms as opposed to something that was a sharper arm or upholstery fabrics, etc. So it's it's um it's it's a um really very well-established effect at this point, and you see it working out just as expected from in lots of places.

Lyssia Katan:

And how much of an impact does the cultural element have, like Moroccan style curved archways rather versus Japanese, where it's a little bit more square?

Dr. Sally Augustin:

I mean it is important to think about how national culture comes into play here because where you were born and lived for the first couple of years of your life continues to influence how you experience space, your expectations of space for the rest of your life. So, you know, you'll find examples of this um regularly. And you know, it's just to broaden our conversation a little bit, this also relates to language. The very first language that that you learn to speak will influence how you experience the world for the rest of your life. And I'll give you an example. Um in some countries, or in some in some languages, um the word bridge is a feminine noun. In other countries, bridge is a masculine noun. You know, anybody who's ever taken French or Spanish knows what I'm getting at when I'm talking about masculine and feminine nouns. There aren't that many in English, but in other languages you you find this regularly where a noun is classified as masculine or feminine. Anyway, if people first speak a language where the word bridge, to continue with this example, is feminine, even when they're speaking in English, even when they're say middle-age, they value, they expect bridges, like overwater bridges, uh, to um have more curving lines, etc. Things that are stereotypically associated with women. People who um grow up, you know, their first language, you know, bridges are a masculine noun, they um value a bridge that's much more rectilinear in form. So, you know, all these things matter and continue to matter, and knowing that things like the first language people spoke or the national their first national culture, whatever, knowing that that those things continue to influence people's experiences for the rest of their life can help people understand what might otherwise be puzzling situations. Like, you know, say you and your partner are somewhere uh looking at uh we were talking about eating before, looking at say dining room chairs, right? And uh maybe they grow up uh speaking a language where chair is feminine, like lachaise and such. And and and you're and you're standing in the in the furniture showroom and you're saying, like, I like this one, and you're pointing at one that's relatively rectilinear in form, like pretty, you know, sharper angles and things like that. And they're looking at it going like, no, just not right, not right, I don't know, not right. And you know, you're trying to have a conversation with them, like, well, why isn't it right? You know, what's you know, and then sometimes these things escalate as we've all either experienced or seen. And um your partner might really just not be able to explain. The chair just doesn't seem right to them, but they can't vocalize why it is. But if you know, you know the kinds of things I'm talking about now, you can sort of understand where they might be coming from. Maybe they're never going to be happy with a sort of rectilinear type chair, no matter what its form, no matter what it's it doesn't have anything to do with the material. It's it's it's etc. It's it's the line that's getting them. And um just move on to something else, you know, because you're not over you're not going to change these very deep-seated responses. Uh, you people can't ignore them, you know, all the time. You know your partner has to live with these chairs if you somehow browbeat them into getting them. I don't think, no, not not right, not right, not right. They're not gonna like them. And, you know, it's just like, you know, sometimes people can't vocalize these things because they're not they don't even understand the forces that could be a play. Also, people may not have vocabulary to talk about design. You know, you and I think of things like things like form and line, stuff like that all the time. Other other people just don't. And um so since they're not used to speaking about those kinds of things, they're nowhere near top of mind to discuss in various situations.

Lyssia Katan:

That's fascinating. The things that I would have assumed are just preference, like he doesn't like the square chair.

Dr. Sally Augustin:

See, that could be that he just doesn't like the square chair. But if he just doesn't like the square chair, he'll probably be able to tell you what if what what it is, you know, that that that's that's an issue with them. Like um, oh, you know, like I'd always be hitting my elbow on that pointy part or something like that, even if it's like clearly made up because their elbow is not going to be near the pointy part, you know. You know, if people just don't like they'll be able to explain the situation. But when people really can't explain, they just don't know, it's just not right to them, etc. That's when you're probably dealing with one of these other forces. One of the reasons I like my job so much is people are really cool puzzles, you know. We are like so smart, but so complicated. So, you know, to work together all the different issues that relate to my world, you know, I I think I think that's so interesting. And you know, we we also have to keep in mind that you know design is important in terms of how people experience space, but it's not the only force that influences what people do. You know, a moment ago I was talking about research that relates to uh spaces where people are more likely to think creatively. Well, all that is cool, and you can create a room that does all the different or a space that does all the different things that the research says it should do to motivate or to to um encourage creative thinking. But people may not be motivated to think creatively if they're in that space, if, for example, they're not um their um bonus at the end of the year has little to do with group performance and has mainly to do with individual performance. Or, you know, you can't be creative on a on a topic that you know nothing about. So, you know, I can create an office that does everything right from a science perspective in terms of encouraging thinking. And I am never going to think creatively about quantum mechanics. I know nothing about it. That's just it. Impossible. You know, so you know, we have to know that design is an important force, a powerful force, but not the only force at play when people are in a space.

Lyssia Katan:

Right. I find it so funny because we think we're such evolved creatures. I spoke about this on a past episode, but we're really not.

Dr. Sally Augustin:

I make that point all the time. I mean, you know, that comment I made about the chipmunk a while ago. And by the way, if anybody's listening from Europe, um I've learned that they don't have chipmunks. Oh no. So a chipmunk is a lot like a squirrel if you've never seen a chipmunk. Anyway, you know, that comment about the chipmunk, you know, like design for a chipmunk. You know, think about a chipmunk. Would they be comfortable in this space? If they wouldn't be comfortable in this space, odds are a human wouldn't be comfortable in the space, etc. Like I have this whole little discussion that I used to, I don't do it so much anymore because people are learning more about environmental psych, but I used to talk about chipmunks all the time. And people, you could see people in the audience would be like rolling their eyes, like, oh my God, but she should please just go on to something else, right? But then one of the things I hear back most frequently from people when they hear me give another talk, whatever, they'll come to the front and they'll say, you know that thing about chipmunks you said? That thing about chipmunks has been so handy. And it all gets back to exactly what you're we're you're you're talking about. You know, we want to think that, you know, we're really hot stuff. And, you know, we can do a lot more things now than we could 10,000 generations ago. We have a lot more tools, you know, various sorts than we did 10,000 generations ago, it's it, etc. But brains change slowly. The same sorts of forces that were driving us so long ago continue to do so. And a lot of that has to do with survival at a really, really basic level. Finding stuff to eat, not freezing to death, not getting eat eaten by anything else. When, you know, you think about those forces like conceptually, when you're putting together a space like a living room, it's really handy. Like, don't float a couch in the middle of a space where people are going to be walking behind the couch. You know, this is like think about your inner chipmunk. That was awful. You know, a chipmunk wouldn't just be comfortable, wouldn't just comfortably sit there and let like other chipmunks or whatever walk behind them. That would be stress-inducing. Who knows what's going on behind you? And if you are really sort of in the middle of what's behind you because there's nothing significant between you and the circulation route, that's super stressful. So, you know, put up even a little table, you know, that is at least the same height as the back of the couch. So you know, people walking by are at least out of arm's length of you. Because we rationally know that, you know, maybe not every single moment of every day, but you know, your kids don't hate you, so you know, they're not gonna like be trying to bop you on the head when they walk behind you when you're sitting on the couch or whatever. You know, we know a lot of things rationally. Like nobody in our workplace would, you know, you have exceptions, but no one's out to harm anybody, no one's out to um make anybody's life more stressful. So, you know, just as people won't want co-workers walking right behind them when they're trying to have a meeting, not because they're trying to hide something, but just if people are walking behind them, they'll be continually distracted. People also don't want to challenge uh the lives of other people. So people will be finding all sorts of ways to walk around if they possibly can, that situation where they're traveling right behind somebody else. So just as you don't want people in a place that makes you stressed. People don't want to be in the place that makes you stressed. We like to get along with each other as the species. You know, as soon as you make a statement like that, you know, there's always the example of this psychopathology or that psychopathology that deviates from that. But those those situations are are are rare. We don't like to um stress other people out. We don't like to be stressed out, and people will act accordingly to the extent that they can.

Lyssia Katan:

That's I mean, that's that's a true point. For the most part, we're not looking to cause mayhem or chaos in other people's lives, but just find peace in our own right.

Dr. Sally Augustin:

No, we're not. You know, as a as a species, we're good. You know, as you know, that's like I said, always some deviations. But if you start to think about things like that, that's why like um you can do things like put chotchkis out in workplaces, whatever. People don't steal them, you know, and they make a space seem much more home-like if there's a vase with artificial flowers in it or the plants, you know, plants survive at workplaces, people don't steal them, you know, and and they improve everybody's day, everybody's ability to think, to work, etc. So, you know, we're pretty good behaviors as a set.

Lyssia Katan:

And when it comes to design choices that are made in workspaces or homes, are there things that um really were are designed with good intention, but actually end up stressing people out more?

Dr. Sally Augustin:

I think often workplace zoning issues have um uh been done with the best of intentions, but have failed. Um, you know, people can't ignore conversations around them. You know, and if again, you know, I'm harping on a theme, but it does seem sort of relevant to what we're talking about. You know, many, many, many, many years, you know, zillions of years ago, it was important for one human to keep track of what the other humans were up to because like hunts had to be coordinated, things like that. So even today, we can't block out people around us. And um often I've well I've regularly seen collaborative areas and workplaces placed very close to uh areas where people are trying to do concentration, intense work, you know, focused work. And the whole idea is people you know can move quickly from that area of focused work to the nearby collaborative area with somebody they need to talk to just for a minute or spontaneously and then move back. Well, you know, it it might as well just save the aggravation of people having to walk to a different place because if there's no real acoustic shielding, you know, it isn't gonna matter that that that that you move. Um and you know, people regularly for a long time weren't realistic. They would think just a few feet would provide shielding. If you're if you're not gonna do anything between people, you need a considerable distance, or they would do things like hang curtains or whatever, and people would, you know, nope, nope, you know, like just like save the money, like have a party instead for the people who work at your organization. Like, don't bother with these things. Now, you know, I think people are starting to get more realistic and not counting on people like to somehow try harder so they don't get distracted. People just literally cannot try harder. You cannot try so hard that you can't hear somebody 10 feet away having a conversation. Your brain is just not going to accomplish that, you know. And the thing is, you really want people generally to be able to work in a place that's relatively quiet. You could think that, oh, well, you know, you're too close to the meeting, but you can put on headphones and listen to music, and you won't hear those words that are being said. Okay, that's true. You won't, yeah, especially if you turn the volume up loud in your headphones, you really won't hear exactly what's happening at the meeting that's taking place too close to where you're sitting. But the music, even music that people select, is distracting. So, okay, then the uh this poor individual who's trying to like get a report done, they're not um uh stressed out and distracted, and their performance isn't degraded by the meeting that's happening too close to them. Their performance is degraded by um the music that they're hearing through their through their headphones. So, you know, uh you don't ever want silence, which is not achievable anyway. You can't create a silent, silent place. It just doesn't that's like a product testing lab where you know uh new sorts of whatever are generated. Those are tested in in quiet places. You but they require tremendous amounts of shielding, etc. You you you can't you can't create a silent place in in a home or a workplace realistically. You want a little hubbub, but you want that hubbub to be like the hubbub of white noise or specific words that uh is nothing with specific words, etc., that can be picked out. You know, um nature uh sounds work really well when they're played very quietly as a way to um uh soundscape a space because they provide some sound masking, um, but they also um promote the sorts of um cognitive performance that are valued in in workplaces. So that can work really well. Um but you know another thing we need to talk about when we're doing we're talking about doing some of these things like introducing uh soundscapes or introducing different scents, you know, different smells to an area, is the fact that people hate to feel manipulated and will react against attempts they feel are being made to manipulate how they think or behave. So, you know, when you're adding nature sounds, they should be very quietly played, very subtle subtly played, so people don't feel they're being manipulated. When you introduce scents into a space, there's actually sort of rule of thumb, you don't want anybody you ask about an environment if you've scented it, you don't want them to spontaneously mention the scent if you ask people about their experience in space, and you want to have the scent be so subtle that when you ask people specifically, does it smell like something in here to you that only half the people can even name the scent? You know, if people walk in to the workplace one one Monday morning and everything smells like lemon, you know, the first they'll worry that something has broken and they don't know what it is because what could smell so much like lemon? But what has happened around here? What's going on? And then after they realize nothing's broken, then they'll rebel, then they'll be angry that you're trying to manipulate them with this smell. So subtle is always the way to go. You really have to be uh careful with soundscapes as well. Like if you have introduced white noise, that's generally a very good idea. But don't, you know, if people are speaking more loudly or you have lots of hard surfaces, don't just turn up the no the volume on the on the on the white noise, add more materials to the space like rugs or something or others that's soft that will absorb the sound. Because when you turn up white noise really loudly, it actually sounds like bad weather. It sounds like a hurricane outside. And that's very distracting people. And you know, when you add nature sounds, you know, the nature sounds that work best in terms of calming us and improving our performance are things like um gently burbling brooks, um peacefully calling birds, tall like grasses that seem or leaves that seem to be rustling in a little breeze, etc. You know, so when you think about the the the logic of this and introducing this, you can see where some of the problems I'm about to name come from. People will decide to add nature sounds, and there's a lot of science that says they should. And then they'll decide for whatever reason to turn them up really loudly because wouldn't loud be better? So then you have people who are like trying to figure out where the broken pipe is, like they can hear the water, but where is the pipe? Like the floor isn't wet anywhere, there doesn't seem to be any any wet walls, you know, whatever. But where is the water? Or where's the bird? How did a bird get in? You know, like there must be a bird trapped here something, and then you have the whole uh group that's like trying to find the bird because they don't want the bird to fly, whatever, you know, and it's like, and then the the facilities person floats through and says, uh um uh no bird. Uh, but we're just um, you know, we used to broadcast white noise. Now we're broadcasting. People are like, what? What you're trying to change how I think with this bird crap? I don't like this, you know. I'm I'm going home. I'm gonna work from home. I don't want to be manipulated. So, you know, subtle is the way to go, people. Like I had to take somebody to um a medical procedure once, and um we um because they needed a ride home. So I um we walked into the lobby of this like outpatient clinic thing, and I could hear the nature sounds, and I was like, whoa, this is really cool. You know, like they're actually using it. And I turned to the person I was, you know, taking to this appointment, and I said, Wow, they're using nature here. I talk about that all the time. And they the person I've said, What? I don't hear it. You know, that's how subtle it should be, you know. Overdo it, bad news.

Lyssia Katan:

Yeah. Wow. That's I mean, I I know because one time when I was really young, I walked into LL Bean and I thought there was a bird stuck in there, but later I found out that LL Bean specifically plays like bird song, or at least they did back then, because it's a very outdoor store, and I was looking around for the bird. And okay, so it's just below detection. Same with the scent.

Dr. Sally Augustin:

Well, people who you know are tuned into it like I don't have superhuman ear hearing, but you know, like I was attuned to the possibility of there being nature sounds there. So I heard it, you know, um, or you know, like I actually find casinos in Las Vegas really interesting places because um they do scent areas, they do a whole bunch of interesting things from a soundscaping perspective, and I'll walk through lobbies or whatever and pick up scents that I know are probably there to produce one effect or another in people. And um often the people around me, and I that mention them too, don't smell them, and that's different than many hotels and similar uh the groups like stores and stuff now are um adapting signature scents uh as part of like their their branding. And sometimes you hear about um psychological effects that um uh the the stores or whatever think the scents are gonna have, but often they're not actually based in science. It's really much more purely a branding activity. And you know, scent is really primordial, it can be really powerful. You know, we like to be around things that smell good, you know, as we define good.

Lyssia Katan:

I I I've noticed that in this coffee shop that I often go to and it has a few different branches. And I know that every single time I go, doesn't matter which branch I'm in, it's the same scent. And it puts me in the mentality of okay, I'm at this coffee shop now. But that's that's right. And hotels, of course, they do that too. But sometimes it can be like you said, I feel like I'm kind of being not manipulated, but okay, we're here now.

Dr. Sally Augustin:

Yeah, and often people worry about allergies in these spaces. And really, in this era, whatever you're smelling is so unlikely to actually be real that allergies aren't really so much a concern. Like if you're I mentioned lemon before, if you're allergic to lemon and you walk into like your workspace one Monday morning and it smells a lot of lemon, well, that lemon scent is entirely artificially generated. You can still be allergic to those things that artificially generate the smells, but odds are not good that you are. I mean, there's you know, we've all in the course of our lives seen like a picture or something of like the bubble boy who was allergic to everything, had to, you know, live literally in the bubble. You know, there are a few people like that. That is definitely true. But there aren't very many. So, you know, you don't really have to worry about sense you encounter causing an allergic reaction in you. At least not anymore. Not in the modern world in which you're likely to find yourself.

Lyssia Katan:

Right. But then we have all the everyone arguing the chemicals and and the the the different like softeners now and are made without chemical without sense because it's uh impacting people and you know, all the things we're bringing.

Dr. Sally Augustin:

Right, that's what I'm saying. Right you could be allergic to them. Um but the odds are small that you'll be allergic to them. So, you know, um, and you could also have um like in terms of laundry detergent or something, you could have a very special like skin condition that could cause you to have particular concerns, like um my father had psoriasis, so it was very important that any laundry detergent my mother used would not um ex exacerbate his psoriasis. And um happily very, very few of us have psoriasis, so you know, very few of us have to worry about that specific situation, you know. But you know, there are things you know kids with bad eczema, you don't want to irritate their skin.

Lyssia Katan:

Or even further, the hormone destruct destructors that are coming into play, where they're saying this super chemical scent is that's actually a thing beyond allergies in my mind.

Dr. Sally Augustin:

So that's why it gets so difficult to talk about some of these things because um, you know, I'm talking about, you know, an artificial lemon smell won't produce an allergic reaction in you if you're allergic to natural lemons, right? Okay, but That artificial lemon smell could give you some kind awful kind of cancer because it's wasn't appropriately tested, or you know, it was tested for five years and it turns out it's 10 years of exposure that actually does people in or whatever. So any of these things that surround us, you know, well, I mean, we know many of them are turning out not to be good for us, but that's sort of separate from the whole allergy issue.

Lyssia Katan:

That's a whole nother rabbit hole. But um Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Sally Augustin:

And that's not the kind of that that I I I know little about that besides what I read with horror in the New York Times from time to time, like, oh my god, better s start not doing that or whatever.

Lyssia Katan:

But when it's out meadow on a spring day.

Dr. Sally Augustin:

If it's not meadow, yeah, that's really long enough. That's really the bottom line of you know what we want to share, uh, you know, because it everything gets back to that. Like um uh you know, even things like just to give you uh an example that might seem um extreme, but that ties back. Humans you know concentrate more effectively, do analytical type tasks more effectively in like cooler light, and they're more uh creative and they get along with people better in warm light. Um uh and and uh ideally um the places where people can't are concentrating are a little brighter than the places where they're hanging out with others or trying to be creative. Well, think about what the sun does on a usual day. You know, it's low and warm, then the sun goes overhead, you know, it's it's the sun is more intense and cool, and then the light becomes you know warmer and dimmer again. You know, and when you you start to place light fixtures, you know, you can think about that arc during the day also, because brighter, cooler light will be much more effective when it's overhead. So those are the kinds of bulbs you want to put in anything that's basically on your ceiling, what while uh warmer, um uh dimmer light is much more effective when it's in things like tabletop lamps or um or or or floor lamps. And you know, the cool the cool intense light we were encountering eons ago was overhead. You know, the warmer, dimmer light was lower on the horizon. Even today, when you place lights in alignment with how we were living so many eons ago, you find um differences in in outcomes. So um, you know, we could actually add another condition, you know. Um consider your inner chipmunk. Create a meadow and a lovely spring day that you would have liked to be in 40,000 years ago, you know, whatever. When when there was no cell phone, when there was no GPS, when pretty much what you did was you worked to keep alive in different ways. That's that was your day.

Lyssia Katan:

And the third element is delivered. So I'm so interested to talk today. I'm so I'm so grateful for your time. I I just moving forward, is there something that you would like someone to take away from this podcast if they remember just one thing about your work? What would it be?

Dr. Sally Augustin:

Yeah, I mean the the the the chipmunks and 40,000 years ago.

Lyssia Katan:

No, where the sun is. Great knowledge.

Dr. Sally Augustin:

But the other thing I would I'd like to say in talks such as this is um don't worry about trends. You know, every time I hear somebody mention trends, like you should do this because it's a trend, or this is on trend now. I hear like my mother in the back of my brain say, if everybody was jumping off the garage roof, would you jump off the garage roof just because everybody else was doing it? You know, like uh like a trend, uh, trends are cool. Um, there gives you something to think about, something new to toss around in your head to decide if maybe it would seem like it would work for you or whatever. But, you know, we're interesting creatures. A lot of things come into play to determine where we successfully live our lives. Uh so and uh you won't be exactly the same as anybody else. You'll be similar to other people. Probably you're similar enough to the people you share your home with and the people you work with, whatever, so you can compromise, but um, and and and find a place that works for for for everybody. But um, you know what's on trend today may not mesh with your personality, the organizational culture of your business, if we're talking about workplace application, etc. So, you know, be happy when the trends float through things that make you happy, like, you know, if you love a certain kind of um I don't know, upholstery uh fabric, you know, and it comes into vogue, you know, that's your time to like stock up and put it aside, you know, for the future, when it won't be on trend, when it will be harder to get hold of, and you'll want new throw pillows for your couch, whatever, you know. So stock up on things that make you feel good to the extent that you can afford it when they're available, and don't worry what's trendy and what's not.

Lyssia Katan:

That's amazing advice, Dr. Augustine. Thank you so much. You are a wealth of knowledge. Well, thank you very much. So honored to have this conversation with you. And we will link you in the show notes. And uh, and and and honor to be able to speak with you. Uh, it's not every day I get to speak with an author I admire.

Dr. Sally Augustin:

So thank you so much for all your thank you for inviting me, and um, hopefully we'll get a chance to talk again sometime. That would be excellent. Absolutely.

Lyssia Katan:

Thank you so much for spending this time with me on Broom2think. If you enjoyed this episode, feel free to follow the show, subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who you think would really appreciate a more thoughtful approach to their space. You can find more design meets psychology insights on social, in our community, and definitely in upcoming episodes so you can build a better life by design. Thanks again for listening. I'll see you next time.