The Illusion of the Perfect Home

In this episode, Lyssia sits down with Alana Nielsen and Kelly Breiter, the duo behind Alana + Kelly Design Co., a residential architecture and interior design studio, to explore why the idea of the “perfect home” often fails in real life. Working across both structure and interiors, they share how designing holistically allows them to bridge the gap between how a home looks and how it actually functions day to day.

The conversation breaks down the difference between spaces that are designed for aesthetics and spaces that are designed for real life, and why so many homes fall short because they prioritize perfection over function. They explore why planning is the most overlooked phase of a renovation, how small decisions can become expensive mistakes, and why understanding how you truly live matters more than any trend or inspiration image. Alana and Kelly also share how they approach clients like a puzzle, balancing lifestyle, habits, and preferences, and why letting go of the idea of a “perfect” home can actually lead to a space that feels better, works better, and lasts longer. By the end of this episode, you may start to rethink what a well designed home actually looks like, and why the best spaces are the ones that reflect real life.

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Alana + Kelly Design Co.
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Website: https://www.alanakellydesign.ca/

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https://lilitile.com

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Transcript

Perfect Homes Versus Real Life

Kelly Breiter 0:00

We're so Pinterest driven and Instagram driven where the scenarios that were shown are perfect.

Lyssia Katan 0:05

That's not reality. The perfect space is kind of going out of vogue, but it's more about a lived-in-kind of messy space. Your house is not gonna look perfect. And that's okay.

Alana Nielsen 0:15

I think Kelly both love to talent what people think they want, how they think they're gonna use the space to make it more efficient from like a cost perspective. The function of the house is a puzzle, but so is how to, you know, merge the styles and the combinations that people like. That's another puzzle. I think undoing something, whatever that is, is very expensive.

Meet The Design Duo

Lyssia Katan 0:35

Do you find yourself playing therapist for these people? What if the most stressful part of renovating your home isn't the construction, but the decisions you didn't make early enough? Welcome to Room to Think. I'm sitting down with Alana and Kelly, the duo behind Alana and Kelly Design Co., a residential architecture and interior design studio that approaches homes from both sides of the process, the structure and systems, and the way people actually live inside a space. In this episode, we talk about why the planning phase matters so much more than people actually realize. We also get into the renovation mistakes homeowners almost always make and what designers actually look for when they walk into a client's home for the very first time. By the end of this episode, you'll have a clear understanding of how designers actually think through a home and what to get right before construction even begins. Let's get into it. Alana, Kelly, welcome to the show. I'm so excited to get a chance to speak with you guys. And this is my first podcast with two guests, so I'm very excited. Thank you for having us. Alana and Kelly are the duo behind Alana and Kelly Design Co., a residential architecture and interior design studio based in Ontario. Alana is an architectural designer with 15 years of experience in residential design and building permits, while Kelly is a registered interior designer known for translating lifestyle and personality into highly detailed interior environments. Together, they created a collaborative studio that bridges the gap between architecture and interior design. So homeowners don't have to manage multiple professionals, consultants, and decisions throughout the building process. Alana and Kelly, welcome to Room to Think. Thank you. That was such a nice intro.

Alana Nielsen 2:23

It really was.

Why One Studio Lowers Stress

Lyssia Katan 2:24

Before we even like dive into what you guys do, how did you guys meet and decide like this is what we want to do?

Alana Nielsen 2:31

Kelly and I were working in the same community, obviously under different umbrellas and different successful businesses. And we found that there was quite an overlap. We would be called for different projects. And if it was maybe better suited for Kelly, and I had received the inquiry, I would just prefer them to Kelly. We found that bringing both services in-house drastically reduced the back and forth and the confusion for clients. We were able to handle a project from start to finish in any way that was required. And it streamlined costs, timeline, and just the overall experience.

Lyssia Katan 3:03

Right. And I'm sure stress for the customer too. Absolutely. They're not bouncing around. Do you find that that's often an issue where the client is running between the architect and the designer and questions and the contractor? And so many things kind of fall through the cracks.

Alana Nielsen 3:17

Absolutely. And it's not necessarily even falling through the cracks, but even just that facilitation of communication, where if we're aligned with a contractor, say we work with regularly, we can handle a lot of that without the client even knowing if that is what they would prefer. Some like to be involved in every single aspect. And some are like, we trust you professionally, figure it out. And those work really well. Rather than, hey, saying we need a meeting to set up to decide on a decision, we're in the same office. We can just handle it. There's no finger pointing, right? Like it's, oh, the architect did that. Oh, the interior designer did that. It's like we just handle it, and the client doesn't really need to go back and forth.

Architecture Versus Interior Design

Lyssia Katan 3:56

That's so convenient for the client. It's like you're doing the upfront work so they don't have to run around after. For people listening who don't quite understand the industry, what does an architectural designer do versus an interior designer if there's a difference?

How Designers Read Your Life

Kelly Breiter 4:11

Yes. So we were just chatting about this. I feel like there's a lot of overlap in what we do, to be honest. There is. So we both kind of work on the fundamentals of the space, right? Like we both understand the connections that need to happen in the residential space, right? We understand, you know, not to put powder rooms in certain spaces and where the foyer should be and the flow of life. Like we both fundamentally get that. Where we branch off is Alana thinks more about the systems of the house, right? She thinks more about the structure, the um mechanical happening, um, all of those kinds of things. Interior design side, we think about, you know, the sight lines and how to conceal some of those systems that Alana works through. We think about, you know, the nitty-gritty functional things, whereas architecture is more like a broad stroke function of the home, right? Whereas interior design is more um, how are you actually functioning in your kitchen? What do you like to like those kinds of things? How are your cabots functioning? Like we're we get more nitty-gritty than architecture side of things. If that makes

Alana Nielsen 5:19

sense.

Lyssia Katan 5:19

And so when you start working with a new client, what are you first trying to find out about how they live in order to make sure that that space works for them?

Alana Nielsen 5:28

The goal is to know, to figure them out. Sometimes it's figuring out the dynamics of the family, the couple as an individual, what is important? A lot of the times, if it is a couple, they have is similarly to Kelly and I, they have different things that are important to them. And we often say, just in our consultations, part of that is understanding who they are as a human, not necessarily what our role is as a designer.

Lyssia Katan 5:51

That's so important because I feel like very often spaces are designed for aesthetics, but not really for practicality and how the person is going to live in this space and move around it. Have you had circumstances where you like really had to change something because of the way that a client lives or something really unexpected?

Kelly Breiter 6:13

Yeah. If there's anything, I'm trying to think of a project where it was sort of different than the norm in terms of how the clients lived, right? I would say if there's a substantial shift in a design, let's say midway through the process after we've done our preliminary, like our step one design. Sometimes I find that restrictions that homeowners believe that they need on a project can change the trajectory of a project a lot. For example, um, we don't want a two-story home. We want, like, say, a bungalowft. And if you give us a parameter like that, that is a hard and vast parameter. We will not challenge that. Where sometimes it does limit our flexibility in a design. Uh, but I will say our our kickoff meetings and our initial touch points with clients are very thorough, especially if interiors is involved in the project, where most of the time we hit it out of the park on design one. That's good. It means you're you're doing something right.

Solving HVAC Without Ugly Bulkheads

Lyssia Katan 7:15

And I actually I saw I saw a video which I think it kind of encapsulated the the perfect blend of how you two work, where I think Alana, you had decided that an HVAC or you had um an HVAC had to go a certain place, and then Kelly, you were the one who covered it up with uh a really beautiful cupboard or cabinet. So the client doesn't have to deal with the HVAC in a sometimes inconvenient space. Can you guys tell me more about that project?

Alana Nielsen 7:40

That was a good project. That was really fun. That was a really good project. And um, I think that it was a an example of a project that wasn't crazy in terms of its scope, right? Like we, it wasn't a new build, it wasn't anything like that. It was, you know, a small addition off the back of a house, just on this the first story, and it like completely changed how the house functioned, right? But I will say you challenged me from a let's pretend there's no mechanical systems in here and make it useful. We had no bulky heads. The HDRAC guy was not impressed. Um, no beans, no nothing, flat ceilings. How do we make it happen? Yes. But I think, and this is where the value, like this is where you know, having us both in-house comes in into play is that, you know, in a typical scenario, you would have hired Alana first, probably, right? You would have hired the architectural side first, they would have done all of those things, and then I would have come in after and I would have said, no, we don't want that. We want this. And we would have gone back to her to be like, alter this. Whereas Alana and I just did that in, you know, 30 minutes. We figured out, no, I shouldn't say that, not 30 minutes, but um, you know, we did that together and made sure that all works without there being any back and forth or the client even knowing we had to do something like that, right? Like we just did it. And those clients were the most ideal and trusting clients. They were like, just execute and let us know what you need. And I will say, by joining as a partnership with you, I have been made so accountable with bulkheads in a way that I had never in my past life. Um, but we we can balance that really well. And um, the only one that hates us is the HBAC guy.

Lyssia Katan 9:26

But it's not like you're not fighting each other, you're working together because it's not like the architect is frustrated with the interior designer's changes and interior designer is frustrated with the structural issues.

Alana Nielsen 9:37

So it's really collaborative. It's as professionals, it's also drastically easier. Our our in-house handling of everything is a lot easier than doing the typical process. Let's set up a meeting or let's have a call. Uh sometimes homeowners can get confused and overwhelmed by that as well. And when they're facilitating that communication, they're involved. Inherently, they're involved. Um, where a lot of it, in my opinion, they don't need to be. We can just fix a problem, it's not a problem.

Lyssia Katan 10:06

Just handle it.

Kelly Breiter 10:07

Yeah. And I think like so many homeowners don't know who is the like who is responsible for that task, right? It's sort of like that's where the finger pointing comes in because it's like, well, isn't that something they should be taking care of? No, it's something, you know, it's um, they don't know. That's not their role. That's what they'd hired professionals for. And so we kind of just take care of that.

The Childhood Clues Behind Their Careers

Lyssia Katan 10:27

It's the beauty of a one-stop shop to just handle it, make my house look nice. Is there a space in your life that changed you or changed the way that you look about design or space in general?

Alana Nielsen 10:39

Honestly, no. Um, in talking about this and reflecting on who we were before we were in our current roles, um, we've both discovered that we both started our design work as children in our bedrooms, moving our rooms around and me making my mom help me move my carpet and all of that jazz. We started challenging spaces before we knew it was a thing. And I think it just evolved through education and career and all that jazz. But my best work started in my bedroom. Amazing. Yeah, I would say there's no one space that was like, oh, you know, that made me think about space differently. I feel like I've always just been so hyper aware of space. You know, I'll talk to my husband about like elementary school, and he knows all of his teachers' names. And it's like, I don't know, I don't know what their names were, but I remember the floor plan of my school in grade three, and I could probably draw it for you. I could draw my classroom, I could draw, like I could, I know exactly what it looked like and how it felt and flowed. I remember it to this day. And so I've always been like hyper cognizant of space, but not, yeah, I don't know. I've always thought about it differently, right? I will say there was one I'd like one moment that changed my interest in design or the ability to do this as a career, and that I was blessed to go to a trade high school. So I went to a high school in Ontario that had its an OYAT program and it's um like an apprenti a pre-apprenticeship program, and they showed us or showcased an architecture program. And um the teachers in that class definitely showed me that there was an opportunity to have this as a job. I don't know if I would have connected that um without them, but Kelly, I could right now design, I could put on paper my elementary school layout. It had no walls. It was all open concept, but I could do that as well. Right?

Lyssia Katan 12:34

Exactly, like almost to a T. It's wild. I can still remember it. It's interesting how the things that when we're younger, they really come out later in our lives. And if we are lucky enough to be able to follow that path, I had a kind of opposite experience where I took an architectural uh drawing class in high school, like where we learned CAD and all kinds of architectural plans. And I remember my teacher, my professor, was like, you're not an architect, you're a businesswoman. And I took it personally, I was like, You know that. I could be an architect. He was right, I'm not an architect, but I do still admire and love everything that you guys do because that allows so much to be able to be created. It's the foundation for every space we've walked into. And as you can tell, I'm still fascinated by it. I'm still in the design industry. But the things that we do as kids are sometimes the little glimmers or sparkles that adults see in us as kids. If we're lucky enough to be able to follow that path, it's it's come, it becomes very rewarding in life when you actually get to do what you love. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Kelly Breiter 13:41

And my parents recognize that as a kid. Like they would let me redo my room probably every year, you know. And back then it was like a Sears catalog, you know, and you would I would like to pick my bedding first out of the Sears catalog, and my mom would say, Okay, and she'd buy it for me. And then I would, you know, my dad would paint my room and, you know, like they fostered that creativity and didn't limit it. And I'm so grateful for that. Your dad is amazing. My parents didn't limit it, but they definitely didn't foster it. Like I remember trying to assemble one of those IKEA eight cube ones all by myself and like smashing one side and the other side popping out and a dad coming to help me eventually.

Lyssia Katan 14:22

There's great memories in that chaos. It's really a gift having parents or adults as a child who who encourage your, I want to say like your inclinations towards certain careers or certain paths. And that's not something I mean, you know, we should ever take for granted. Because there's a lot of people who are amazing at certain things and are pushed to something totally different and they're never actually fulfilled. So glad to hear and see that you guys have found your calling.

Alana Nielsen 14:51

And I will say, I think sometimes naturally you don't necessarily land where in that creative path that you had intended. Um, in going to school for architecture and graduating, I ended up in a role, a great role, um, for a local municipality where I was in the building department and it was great. Um, but creatively it was dead. Um, and so evolving into an opportunity like working with Kelly and being able to foster that creativity is a game changer because the path can really easily switch in terms of having that creativity in your life or not.

Function First And Project Types

Lyssia Katan 15:27

And it takes courage to recognize like this, I'm not feeling fulfilled in this career. How can I find something that actually allows me to thrive? Absolutely. And blessed that it happened when I was so young. Some people will find it later in life. You know, there's plenty of senior citizens that are discovering pottery making for the first time and suddenly are realizing this is what they were meant to do or any kind of thing. Absolutely. So when you guys start working on a project, what is the first thing that you consider beyond aesthetics? You're walking into a project, and and maybe Alana, we can tie in your home renovation that I know has been going on. We can tie that in because I'm sure, I'm sure we'll get there. But beyond aesthetics, what are you bare bones? What are you looking at? I think we're always thinking about function first, right?

Alana Nielsen 16:12

Like, I don't even think about what it looks like until we think about how it functions. Functions and understanding whether it's work, like while one space may work for one family, we're there for a reason. So something's not working and how that function could be improved or they're missing something. And I think Kelly and I both love to challenge what people think they want, um, where people may think you may need an addition or you might need to take down more walls than you think, but challenging how they think they're going to use the space to make it more efficient from like a cost perspective. But I would say yes, function trickles through everything.

Lyssia Katan 16:48

And are you mainly working on renovations or are they new builds or a little bit of both? A little bit of both. Is there one you prefer? New builds.

Alana Nielsen 16:56

Greened new builds can have restrictions in their own right, depending on the lot, the location, all of that. Um, but a new build allows us to be fully creative. We're not restricted by walls that are existing or anything like that. And we're not limited in a new build.

Renovating Your Own Home

Lyssia Katan 17:12

You can build it very custom to what the client needs. Absolutely. And going back to renovation, so this is a video series that I really liked watching on your page. Alana, you started home renovation. Let's talk about it. How's that been going? Um, as a professional or as a homeowner? Because I have uh both. I'd love to hear both. Because I feel like our audience is can find themselves in both both spaces, as a professional or as uh just an individual renovating.

Alana Nielsen 17:41

As an individual renovating, I think I'm Kelly's best client. Um, I have generally not challenged much, and she did a beautiful design. Um, in my home, my involvement was very limited. It's just it's a beam. Um, and then my job is pretty much done. Kelly designed a beautiful home and was able to balance what I wanted and what my husband wanted, which is interesting when you're connected to them. I think Kelly was our therapist through part of it. Was there certain things that she knew was important to me and certain things to my husband? She got my husband the stone fireplace that he has been dreaming of. And I think as a homeowner, it's been interesting to get to really see the nitty-gritty of what happens on the day-to-day. Um, in a lot of projects, I wouldn't be on site unless someone needed me. Kelly is much more involved in um site touch points and really overseeing the construction, where for me, I'm not.

Lyssia Katan 18:39

Uh so now I'm getting a really good first hand view of it. And as a homeowner, before we get into how you your take on a on it as a professional, what are like what's going on in your mind psychologically? Like, I mean, this is the the intersection of interior design and psychology at the end of the day. Like, how are you being impacted?

Alana Nielsen 18:57

I think the difference is too, I was blessed to have an interior designer on my team. So from a design perspective, I honestly don't know what's happening. I just know that it's beautiful and I'm trusting every decision Kelly's made, down to the mill worker being like, the land of doesn't have a clue what's going on. Um but from a from a human perspective, um that was the part that I actually needed more time to sort out was how can my family logistically thrive or survive in this space. And I did go against a rule we tell all clients, uh, we tell them you should not live in the home while you're going through this. Um, we have a large family, so relocating was not logistically an option. And so that part has been the more difficult part. How do I cook? How do I clean? How does everyone stay happy? Um, but I would say today is probably the end of our hardest phase. Drywall is done today. So we're gonna we're we've made it, I think. Um, and it's going good. The dust phase is over.

Lyssia Katan 20:02

Hopefully.

Alana Nielsen 20:02

As of tonight.

Lyssia Katan 20:03

For the time being. Yeah. As of tonight. Exciting. And Telly, what about working with Alana, someone that you have worked with for so long? But when it gets to a personal home, there's some details that you just are so connected to.

Kelly Breiter 20:16

Yeah. And I mean, I think um in this scenario, Alana doesn't have like a, you know, she didn't come with a strong uh aesthetic taste that she likes, right? So she did her and her husband did entrust me. Uh, they know kind of the style that I like to do and like um, you know, how I like to finish things. And so I was lucky that they trusted me with that and that they didn't have a strong, you know, design direction and or that they had differing design directions, right? Like sometimes the husband likes one thing, the wife likes another thing, and we got to figure out how to merge that. I will say they had things that were more um, you know, like the stone fireplace, very important to Kirk. To Alana, you know, not as important, right? Um, there were there were different things we had to kind of merge together. Um, but that's the part that I also love. That is another puzzle in itself, right? Like the function of the house is a puzzle, but so is how to, you know, merge the styles and the combinations that people like. That's another puzzle. And I I enjoyed that and it was fun for them. Like we did get to do some cool things, um, push them outside of their comfort zone and still pushing her out of her comfort zone a little bit. Um yeah, I didn't foresee the aesthetic. I looked at the things I hated and I looked at the logistics part and the function. That's what I cared about the most was how can we comfortably have four kids having breakfast? How can we host the families that we host? Um, we love a good pool party. So, like those were the things that were important to me. And Kelly was able to take things that we both love and merge them into something beautiful. And it's colorful. I think it's more colorful than I would have done on my own. 100%. Oh, 100%. I can confidently say that. And it's beautiful. I'm excited. But that's what the balance is for. Yes. The balance. And like I think, yeah. So for Alana, they had, you know, there are four kids. There are, there's a lot, like that house will be under a lot of use. You know what I mean? We had to make sure that it's beautiful, but the forefront is we can't do something beautiful if it doesn't, if it's not going to last them and it's not going to function for their family. That's the first thought before the pretty, right?

Lyssia Katan 22:50

But you achieved it. What's your ETA? Are you almost done or not? Not yet.

Alana Nielsen 22:54

Uh yeah, I uh knock on wood. We are two weeks from cabinets being installed. So in my opinion, we're like less than a month from being able to cook. And that's that's my milestone. Trim can come click cubs. If I can cook again, we're good.

Lyssia Katan 23:10

And so when you do consider the use of a space and a larger family, lots of kids, pets, right? How do you combine that? Like also beautiful, but also functional and durable.

Kelly Breiter 23:22

There's lots of great, you know, companies and vendors and suppliers nowadays that that make that very possible, right? Like that's become that's become a very big, I don't know what the right word is, but like there's lots available in that market um to suit that now. And um so, and honestly, most of our clients are large families, pets, dogs, you know, kids. So a lot of what we have in the studio and a lot of what we do already design around is for that. So it was easy for us, I will say. Like we we do this a lot. We understand it.

Lyssia Katan 23:57

We I have a family, like I know totally what this needs to be. You know, the durable finishes that are not gonna have pet scratches and and and you know, kids tracking in dirt.

Kelly Breiter 24:08

And it's also an education, right? Like there is no hardwood floor that I will find you that won't scratch, but it's preparing the client to be like, listen, okay, we understand you, you know, they have a dog, they have a cat, they have four kids. Uh, you're gonna get scratches on your floor. I can't make that not happen. That's a fact of life. But we can pick a hardwood that maybe has more knotting and has more character to it so that those be those dents become less visible. But like the first one, the first scratch, the first dent, it's gonna hurt the rest part of life.

Lyssia Katan 24:40

And you have to understand that. And do you find that preparing the client fares better in the long run? Because they are they're they expect it and it's almost like psychologically they're being prepared. Like it's gonna get scratched. It's just part of having hardwood floors.

Kelly Breiter 24:55

Most clients looking into this though are less they understand. Like they understand what they're bringing to the table. And I think it's it's reminding people, right? It's reminding people that like this is not going to be perfect. Like it's it might look perfect for, you know, the first 30 days, right? But then after that, you're gonna live in it. And it's it's gonna get marks, it's it's gonna need to be cleaned, it's gonna, all of those things are gonna still happen. It doesn't miraculously change how you live. And it's just educating them and reminding them that like there's gonna be some wear and tear. There's gonna be some, you know, it's just an education. And in knowing that the family knows, do you know what I mean? Like currently, my children are rollerblading and playing hockey in the living room and they're drawing on the walls because they're allowed for this very school. But that when this is done, it's they need to take responsibility and care for it as well, and that we're in it together. And I think a big thing that Kelly and I talked about, one key item that my husband and I went back and forth on a lot was our floors. I wanted a vinyl floor. I was like, we we have doors everywhere going to our pool. This is something that's important to me. And Curtis and Kelly aligned in the sense that that may not be required, and that with key locations of tile, that we could limit the damage from how we live. And at the end of the day, we're not spending all this money and doing this for nothing. We want to live here, we want to have fun, and I don't want to be you can't sit on that couch, you can't do this, no, you can't have a black sharpie on my new couch. But let's fly into that one.

Lyssia Katan 26:24

Well, it's interesting because I've been seeing a lot of this and having these conversations and seeing it online that the perfect space is kind of going out of vogue. And it's more about a lived-in, kind of messy space. Your house is not gonna look perfect, and and that's okay. And just embracing that and enjoying the imperfections and the mess that comes with it, obviously within reason. Yeah.

Kelly Breiter 26:47

And and letting that be okay, and letting it be like a true reflection of who you are. 100%. And I think we're so like we're so Pinterest driven and and Instagram driven where these like these scenarios that were were shown are perfect, right? Like it's this island that's totally clear and there's nothing on it, and there's beautiful flowers. It's like that's not reality. If you walk into my house today, there is crap everywhere. Like that, and that's just it's going to always be that way, right? It's like that is life. And I think we have to shift and kind of remind people if if we can make ways like, okay, you know, I always there's always junk on this corner of the island. Okay, maybe we make a drawer on that corner of the island that you can throw that junk into when you're hosting and you want to just like shove it away. Like we can work those systems into your space, right? But at the end of the day, you live there. Your your junk's gonna be on your island, and that's okay. Like it doesn't have to be. Yeah. But even for MyOS, you were able to design things like one thing we had to consider is an Xbox and charging stations for iPads. So, like things like that. And you were able to incorporate all those things beautifully. We had a substantial jump drawer where it's like, sorry, this is this is something we need. You incorporated all of those weird quirks that we needed. Yeah, and that's like a system of the space, right? Like you think about the HVAC systems and all of that. I think about the systems of what are they gonna do with their iPads and their like all of the job, like I say, that builds up on the island. Where is that all gonna go when you're like, oh crap, someone's coming over?

Lyssia Katan 28:18

Where's it going? But I think it also takes a good level of awareness of saying, okay, there is gonna be junk and and and you you're gonna at least need a place. It's not like you're designing for the perfect version of you that just doesn't exist. You're recognizing there's gonna be junk. That means this drawer has got to be built in.

The No Tidying House Walkthrough

Alana Nielsen 28:38

And one thing that Kelly does do in our kickoff meetings that I will say from an architectural standpoint, we don't do, is she will dive into every single nook and cranny of your kitchen and your closet and will tell you not to tidy it because she wants to see truly what do you need and what are you missing? Um, and I think that is sometimes a little bit, the idea of it is a little bit mortifying to clients, but when she explains the why, it's we want to see what's what's a problem. How do we fix this? And um, when people truly lean into it and don't tidy it, she can make sure that it's been accounted for.

Lyssia Katan 29:12

So, Kelly, walk me through this. Do you go to the client's house before the renovation and see exactly how they're leaving living, like a snapshot? Yes.

Kelly Breiter 29:21

And we do ask them not to tidy, like that is a line we we tell them not to, right? Um, we need to see, okay, yeah, what is the junk that's on your island? Like um, spices are something I always find. Like I open a spice cupboard and it's like, holy shit, you have so many spices. Do you use these or do you not use these? Um, how can we store them better? Like, those are the kinds of things, or like so many times people are bakers and they have a kitchen aid stand mixer, but they keep it in like their basement and they have to carry it up every time they bake. Or, you know, just things like that. Like we kind of inventory all of the stuff that they have and try to create systems for it in the function of the like, I'm not organizing, you know, what I'm not an organizer, like um, but it's where is everything gonna go? And you do that for custom homes too, where we'll go to their current home and prep for what they need in their new home.

Lyssia Katan 30:17

Do you have an example of of something that you've seen in a client's home that maybe was really bothering them and you were like, oh, I can easily have a solution, like the Kitchen Aid example or something where you really saw it in action?

Alana Nielsen 30:31

This one resonated with me, but there was a family we worked with a couple years ago, and they had three or four boys in hockey. And a big thing that they talked about was the transition from their garage to where they stored the hockey, put them in the basement, was just like banged up from hockey bags. And Kelly was able to create an open mud room with like no door, I think no door, but it was a placeholder for hockey equipment. And while that might be an outlandish idea to most families, for this family, it was very required and it changed everything. Their home was less scuffed, scuffed up, their whole basement didn't smell like teenage boy. Um, and it really fundamentally fixed a problem.

Lyssia Katan 31:14

The side effects of living in Canada and designing for hockey families or the benefits in the town, yeah, you know, big hockey town too. So it's this is very common. And that is part of it, recognizing like where you live and what is gonna be common. Like I, whenever I'm out in Colorado, I see that that like I don't live there, obviously. So I have an Airbnb, I rent an Airbnb, and I see like there's a space to put your ski booth, there's a space to put like there's just like uh there's room for that. And you would never think about that on on the East Coast or in Florida where I live. It's it's not even a feature. So I love that it's thought of. You have to actually, it's very intentional.

Kelly Breiter 31:54

Oh, and like there's nothing, I I'd say like every client is different, right? And you know, some people want to display things, so we build like display cabinets for things, or some people want to hide things away. I don't it's it's really unique to to the person, right? There's no, yeah, I can't think of like a one thing that we did that was really unique in that sense, I guess.

Lyssia Katan 32:18

Is there something that you learned or were surprised by about human behavior once you started designing homes?

Kelly Breiter 32:25

I think for me, the biggest um is is the kids, right? Like so before I had children, like, or before I had child, I didn't uh you don't think of the impact that children have on design. Like family, if you had child, like a children, sorry, what am I trying to say? If you had a child, that how that impacts your household, right? And how you need to design differently for that. Um, and think until you have a child, you don't think, you don't understand the the impacts that come along with that.

Lyssia Katan 32:59

So for our listeners uh like myself that don't have kids yet, what what can we expect when it comes to design and children? Durability.

Alana Nielsen 33:07

Durability, okay. Durability. Yeah. They have a lot of stuff. Some kids, like depending on the family, like my kids, if there is a place to put the stuff, sorry, three out of four of them, if there's a place to put the stuff, they put it away. So it's like finding that space. Kelly in the design of my home found spaces for all their things. Um, and then knowing that when they go out, you have to throw out their stuff. They'll never know. Yeah, I mean that that's not like human behavior as a whole, but I feel like that's like a little thing I didn't fully grasp until that happened.

Lyssia Katan 33:39

But it it's like a cycle, right? They don't understand a client may not understand how it impacts their space, but they're constantly frustrated because they're walking in, they're tripping over shoes, stepping on Legos. Like it's just like a constant cycle where just a little bit of uh awareness and design shifts can improve their mood. They walk in, they're not stumbling over toys. Yes, for sure.

Alana Nielsen 34:02

Efficient storage is a huge one. Just being thoughtful and like Kelly said, being truly honest in the amount of crap you hold and finding a space for it. Especially too in Canada, like in a place like where we live, although I'm very jealous of where you live right now, we have seasonal clothes, right? Winter clothes, summer clothes, spring clothes, they'll cover fall. But being thoughtful of that, that you have to be able to have a space for all of those extras. Right.

Planning For Budget And Timeline

Lyssia Katan 34:28

And they take a lot of space, all the puffy coats, and it's half your closet or more. So when it comes to understanding how complex renovations can be, what's something that people almost always get wrong at the beginning of a project? How much it's gonna cost and how long it's gonna take? And are there ways to mitigate that or just be prepared?

Alana Nielsen 34:47

Proper planning. I think people underestimate how much better a construction project goes if you really invest the time in the planning phase so that when construction starts, you're not slowing down anybody. Um, having a proper team that helped with the planning architectural and interior design sets the general contractor up for success in the fact that they can just run. Um, we it breaks our heart when we have to stop a project because we have to select a tile or something like that, like something not huge in the scope, but can really slow things down. And I think proper planning allows people to be financially informed. Having a full set of drawings and approaching a general contractor at that point allows people to give you an accurate price and allows you to be prepared. Um, we do find in most projects where we're rushing, we're not just rushing, but if we're rushing, homeowners are rushing to pack, they're rushing to move, and it can make it feel more stressful unnecessarily.

Lyssia Katan 35:47

So you just also that's very much in line with um, we had Danny Wang of Block Renovation on the podcast, and she said, you gotta start before you even think you're like six months is even late. Like you got to start as early as possible, as early as the idea comes into your head, because like she was saying, she had a story where she wanted to renovate a bathroom, and the contractor was like, I can start tomorrow. And she was like running around trying to get tile, trying to make sure she was she's got the tub in the back of her SUV. And just that's that's possible to avoid with just a little bit of planning.

Kelly Breiter 36:17

And even like a prime example, I went to, you know, I was talking to a prospective client and they had lived in the house for, you know, 10 over a decade, 10 plus years. They've been wanting to do this renovation. And, you know, they said, Oh, well, the contractor can start in like two weeks. And I said, Okay. And, you know, and we plan to live here for another 20 plus years. Okay. So you have lived here for this long, you want to start in two weeks, you're gonna live here for another two decades. What's the rush? Like, this is a large investment. This is a big, you know, as much of a money investment, this is also like you want this to be great, you want this to be super successful, you want this to be well planned, you don't want to be stressed about this. Why rush it? Like, why why not take the time and the thought that it took you 12 years to get to that point to to to ready to be ready to do this? Why spend you know, two weeks rushing it to get it done? Right? It doesn't, it doesn't really, there's not a ton of logic behind that, I feel. And I do feel that maybe people are not informed about that, but when they sit back and they just allocate the time, we have one project we're working on right now, um, interior alteration. So like interior renovation. Clients left a boatload of time. We were well ahead. We had permits months before. It was designed months before. It was, it felt so good. And the construction process and their life has felt smooth through it. And it's like it can be better than the news makes it seem. It doesn't have to be stressful or scary. You don't have to write a blank check to a contractor. Like with the right planning, it can feel good.

Lyssia Katan 38:01

I think that's something that people often overlook or like, and maybe this is where kind of social media comes into it, where they see something they like online, they're like, oh, I want that, and I need it right now. And it's it kind of ties in with our impulsive nature as humans to be like, this kitchen has always been bothering me. I found a contractor, let's get it out of the way right now. And and realizing that actually that's gonna bother you so much more, the fact that you're rushing it and two weeks is just not realistic. And and a lot of times in this world where things are moving, I mean, Kelly and I were just talking about it before before we started, we before we hit record, that things are moving so fast today with social media, with AI. Things are just like boom, boom, boom. And I think it's translating into our lives where we're expecting things so quickly. Like Amazon delivers your thing. I don't know how it is in Canada, but in the US, two hours, it's at your door. Oh, two hours. That's better than here. Oh, yeah. That's that's that's how fast it's going. Like you're like, well, why should a kitchen renovation should take 12 to 16 months, right? Uh Amazon gets my package really fast. We're already on to the next level of AI, the new GPT model has, you know, has released. And so people forget that these things are actual physical things, not, you know, they take time.

Alana Nielsen 39:18

And that at the end of it, if you're investing that much money and that much time, we would hate it if you had a regret. If you're in your kitchen, you're like, I hate how this drawer opens. This was this was not what I wanted. And it's like if you just took a second to absorb it and to take your time, it may not have been like that. We're not designing for we are sorry, we pride ourselves, we are not designing on something that is being redesigned in five years. It's timeless, it's beautiful, and it should last. And it should be given that credit in the planning basis.

When Clients Panic Mid Build

Lyssia Katan 39:48

Is there a point anytime in the entire construction phase where clients most often start to panic? Or if they're doing it right, maybe they're not panicking at all.

Kelly Breiter 39:58

This can be tricky. So I think from my perspective, um, I find it it's tricky when an Alana might see this as a result. When her floors start to go in, I find clients get really hung up on all of the little details before they see the whole picture. And so that I find the finishing starts to get tricky, right? So I mean, even prime example for me, I had my floors redone in my old house and I walked in and they had put like a little piece right in front of my archway into my kitchen, and it was a totally different color than everything around it. And I was like, what the hell? Why did you do that? Like, what like you didn't take a second to look at that? And I focused on it, like I tell my clients not to, but I did. I didn't notice it at all for the rest of my time being there after everything else was in, right? So I think that clients get like really hyper focused and start to kind of freak out as the pieces come to back together before they see the whole picture. They definitely start to like question is that the floor I picked? Is that that's not what it looked like, you know, those things start to happen. And then once it's all in, they're like, oh, right, that's and it works.

Lyssia Katan 41:11

Oh, it's funny because being on the opposite side of that, like I'm in the tile industry, right? Our tiles are handmade. So there's a lot of natural variation. And that's why we always recommend a dry lay. Like put down those tiles without the sinset and and move them around, especially if you're going for anything handmade or natural stone. There may be veins, there may be colors, and and and it's very frustrating. We get the phone calls too, right? At the end of the day, it's it's the contractor that maybe wasn't looking. He has 400 tiles to lay. He wasn't looking at the color of this one versus that one, but being able to, and that's that's part of planning, doing a dry lay and recognizing I don't want to worry about this later. Let's just make sure we have it figured out now.

Alana Nielsen 41:50

Absolutely. Well, and we had one experience with tile where Kelly had done a very creative pattern and it was beautiful. And we rendered it and they saw it. And even and I experienced it as someone who is not that educated in flooring your tile, other than the fact that you need a subfloor. But when we went there without grout involved, it looked drastically different. And Kelly was like, just trust the process. And when the grout was in, it changed the entire look. And the client was overjoyed once it was done. But when it was during the process, it was very misleading. I mean, it's a double-edged sword, but you you want the clients to be involved and see these things and sort of have these approvals as they're happening, right? Like that you see the floor squid. Okay, I like them. You want those like little checkpoints, but it can hinder it that they focus on it so much. What you also say is I'm about to go through an emotional roller coaster that I wasn't predicting. I was just jazzed, I had drywall. Just you wait, it's coming.

Surprises Behind Walls And Fast Fixes

Lyssia Katan 42:49

But the grout, I mean, we've seen it, it changes the whole space or ruins it sometimes if you pick the wrong grout. So you really have to be selective. And and we've already uh we've had architects get extra tiles and pre-grout them and see how it looks to pick because once it's in, it's in. It's in. Do you have any experiences with when a project went completely wrong? Or are you lucky enough to have never had that happen?

Alana Nielsen 43:16

Knock on wood. Knock on wood. All right, moving on, moving on. Next question. I would say what we pride ourselves on, like, okay, so again, different lenses in terms of the service offering. There are moments where we're making assumptions of what is in a wall or whatever during a renovation, and maybe things get uncovered that are not what we predicted or what anyone could have predicted. We've had a couple instances where maybe construction didn't go in the order it was supposed to. Um, and we've had to pivot really quickly to try to rectify things so fast. Remember that house I was on vacation a couple of years ago, and it was about someone had made an error in the excavation, and there was Very high chance the house was going to tip over. And we were doing an edition on it. And um Anna acted so fast. I was like, what vacation? Um, let's fix this. But oh yeah, she was on vacation and got that call. But I think we're there to support as fast as possible. Um during construction, that is our priority. During the permitting phase, that's our priority. We don't want anything, we don't want to be the person slowing the process during construction. Um, but I would say I don't think we've ever had anything go wrong, like even slightly wrong. No, and I think that that's where the collaboration comes in. Like we've put we, yeah, you're right. We've like sometimes assumed certain things behind the walls that we couldn't see in a renovation, and it's not what it was. And so we had to make adjustments to it. But that's where it's really nice to be collaborative with the builders so that there is no finger pointing. They're just like, hey, that's not what it was. Can you come help? And we do. And, you know, the client doesn't have to know. And we've built a Rolodex of people we work with regularly who will they are there to help. It's um whether our no matter where our projects are, a lot of the consultants we work with, HVAC designers, structural engineers, down to vendors, um, we've built relationships with people. So when it's an SOS or we need to lean into a favor, they're there. And you know what? Even the building departments, we have great connections with our local building departments and they are there to help us.

Lyssia Katan 45:29

Yeah, the quality of your relationships is really important, especially in every industry, but especially in this one where you need the HVAC guy to come out stat and you just you're hoping he comes out, or the electrician or or the structural engineer.

Alana Nielsen 45:43

And well, we don't ask for often. So when we do, they tend to come, and vice versa. The the contractors we work with don't ask for it often, but there is sometimes who like, we need a permit in two weeks, make it happen. And we do we don't like to, but we do.

Expensive Changes And False Dormers

Lyssia Katan 45:57

You can't be the boy who cried wolf. You know, you gotta only when you need it, you call them in. But that's part of proper planning. Is there a renovation mistake that ends up being incredibly expensive later down the line? Any change during construction is more expensive.

Alana Nielsen 46:11

So if you can make a change prior to them swinging a hammer, it is drastically cheaper than during. I think undoing something, whatever that is, very expensive. If something's installed and you now don't like it, if you have an inkling or a feeling in your tummy, tell us when you have the feeling, um, not when you're in it. And just, you know, every like in construction, everything is a big ticket item that's new, right? Like cabinetry is not inexpensive. So if you, if there's something about the cabinetry you don't like in the drawings, that's the time to speak up. Cause changing that after the fact is very expensive. Changing counter to like changing anything um after the fact is very costly. Or you see a wall go up and you're like, I don't like that wall there, it's costly. To be honest, though, if it's a little wall, it's still cheaper than swapping out your countertops. It's um little changes like that. Like, well, it seems to a lot of people, like, oh my gosh, if it's a four-foot smidge of wall, even at my house, I changed a smidge of wall smidge. Um, but if I was to regret my countertops, which I guess you're gonna help me through, Kelly, that emotional process, that's very expensive. You're paying twice.

Lyssia Katan 47:20

Is there anything that sounds really good in theory, but when it comes to real life, it just does not work? I feel like there's a lot that sounds good in theory. Um you're seeing clients like really ask for and you're like, nope, I've I've had that experience. It doesn't work. Let's let's rethink this.

Kelly Breiter 47:38

I think Alana, like on the architectural side, I feel like you get this more than me, where we have clients who, you know, they're trying to build something, you know, maybe unique and different, but fundamentally, like it's it's difficult to build. And so it's it, you know, dormers, let's say, as an example. I don't know, you run with this, but like that is there's ways we can be efficient about it to give you that look, but without building it inefficiently. Like, I think that's probably one of them. Yeah. There's gotta be something better. But you're right. It a dormer is like a complete, it's it is literally fake. You are building a dormer just to make your home look more beautiful, but there is no value to it other than the fact that it looks, it's a great facade.

Lyssia Katan 48:20

What's a dormer for anyone listening who's not familiar?

Kelly Breiter 48:23

It's like um a little roof that comes out of the main roof, like a little, what do you call it? Like if there's a wingow with a fake roof above it in any configuration, most of them are false. Most of them are just there for looks. I'm trying to think. Is there anything we're like a flat out no to? I don't think so.

Lyssia Katan 48:40

It's a good thing. It means you're very flexible with your clients and you want to make their dreams come true.

Advice Before You Call A Contractor

Alana Nielsen 48:46

We do. And I think we're open to anything if we feel from a product, like a warranty, well, we're not warrantying it, but from a deliverables that you would be happy and that it will withstand the test of time, we're in it. Yeah, and we're even open to creative building practices, different materials, different foundation types. Like we're we're very open to that. As long as we feel confident as a homeowner that we would be happy with it, we're down.

Lyssia Katan 49:17

So if someone listening is about to embark on a renovation right now, what is a piece of advice that you would give them at this moment before they've touched anything, before they've called anyone, what would you tell them? Don't skip out on the planning phase.

Kelly Breiter 49:32

Call your designer first. Those are good pieces of advice. I like that. Understand your numbers, right? I think we get so much people call us and we say, okay, well, what's your budget? And they say, I don't know. And I think they always know, like you have a rough idea in your mind, right? Am I spending a hundred thousand? Am I spending a million? Like you have a gauge. Um, and I think sharing that information is and and knowing what you're comfortable spending, I think is a critical piece too. And we tell a lot of people, knowing the value to you. So I had a consultation recently, very nice family. It was made very clear to me that the number they were providing us as a comfort level that there was more, but that they didn't care, that the value to them was X amount of dollars. And if we couldn't achieve it in X amount of dollars, it was no longer worth it for them. This home was not a forever home. It was a five to 10 year home. So while it was, they required improvements, they were looking at it very financially responsibly to be like, I'm not spending more than this. Um, and that was very nice to see. Um, a lot of people, I think, with the horror stories that you hear on the news and from your neighbor that someone gouged you for money, people are very tight with that information. But sharing that early on with your contractor and your designer allows them to design for your budget. Um, especially for what we experienced during COVID. Prices of materials went very astronomical, it was unpredictable. Where now it's Kelly and I really pride ourselves on designing buildings that people can actually build. And knowing your number is huge. Um, and knowing it's not our business where your money came from or what is extra, but making sure you have a contingency there so that if something does happen, you are still comfortable, that makes us really happy.

Lyssia Katan 51:32

And is there something that a homeowner can do that's not so expensive but makes a drastic difference in their life day to day in terms of renovation? I don't think there's a blanket answer.

Alana Nielsen 51:43

It's so specific to the homeowner, what they do or do not, what what works or doesn't. I feel like Kelly's would be like, just add wallpaper and it makes everything. No, a mod honestly would be to like reevaluate your stuff. I like me as a per as a human, I reevaluate everything in my house. And I I don't know if all people do that, but I the number of houses that we go into and there is so much stuff, and everyone says, Oh, I have to purge. And it's like, do that on a yearly basis, and that alone will make your life function so much better. Like, just you have a hot, you have a thousand spices, get rid of the ones you don't use. You have um, I don't know, you have 60 different countertop appliances, but you use two of them, get rid of the other ones. Like, reevaluate your life constantly. Coats is a big thing. People have so many coats. Purge your coat. Yeah, you don't need that many coats. No, my husband, like, how many shoes do you need? Like, what I don't, I don't understand. That's a good one. I like that. Yep. Reevaluate your life constantly and be like, do I need this? See, but then you can reevaluate too much. Like, my kids check the garbage now because I'm throwing out their artwork and stuff, and they're like, Why would you throw this up? Oh, I didn't.

Lyssia Katan 52:58

Your dad did. But there are things like we recently had a Feng Shui master on the show, and she said, like, so many things are impacting your mental load. Right. So, like, if you have a table by the entrance, you may not realize that that's that's actually taking up so much space that you can use for something else, and it's not really practical. So doing uh uh analysis of your home and understanding, am I using this piece or am I just holding on to it because I think it's helpful or it's nostalgic, whatever it is, it actually is is really weighing you down.

Alana Nielsen 53:31

Absolutely. And is it helping you in holding more crap? Like some of it, it's like if it if it's a place for your male and that kind of stuff and it it and it causes chaos as you walk in the door, they're right, clear it out.

Lyssia Katan 53:43

Or find a way to organize it or something that you can put it in that you don't have to be stressed by it every time you walk in a home for it.

Kelly Breiter 53:52

Yeah, and I also think like so many people they're it like they have so much stuff that they think that they need to do an addition, right? Like we've had that so many times, Lynn and I have gone into a house and they're like, oh, we have all of this stuff. I need to bring it up into the kitchen. I need to like bump out my house to get a bigger kitchen. It's like, no, you just need to get rid of your stuff. Like if it's in your basement, and I'm not saying like be crazy about that, but yeah, like you don't need all of this. We don't need to bump out your house and spend $200,000 to store this stuff that you don't use. It doesn't make any sense. Like it's almost too like we find that clients do agree with us when they're packing to move, right? So if you think about it, if you are move a home, you're gonna throw out or donate or get rid of a lot of items. Where we will joke with clients, and I have joked before to be like, I'll come be your purger and prep you for this. But when it comes down to it and they're packing up to move out, to like give an empty home to a contractor, they inherently purge a lot of stuff just naturally. And then it scales it back where it's like you don't need what you think you need. But if you've lived there for 25 years, you collect things.

Lyssia Katan 55:01

And how often as an interior designer, I would say, Kelly, but probably for you too, Alana, do you find yourself playing therapist for these people, for these clients?

Kelly Breiter 55:10

It's like 90% of our job, I think, right? Like reality at the end of the day is being a therapist to people and challenging, you know, being playing devil's advocate half the time too, to be like, do you really, like, do you really need that? Do you really, you know, just challenging it a bit. And digging deep into the why. You want this why? Like, what is the true purpose of it? And sometimes that, like, I think our front-end process of our kickoff and our consultations and really understanding them helps us so much in being successful in the initial design. And a lot of that is more human than architecture or interesting.

Lyssia Katan 55:47

Right. And you are building a home. And like you said, often it is their forever home. You want a space that they're gonna be so comfortable in. And and part of that is recognizing the like the mental aspect, that not just the physical, but the the why, like you said. So if someone listening was gonna take only one thing away from listening to this podcast episode, what would you want it to be?

Alana Nielsen 56:10

Give yourself time in the planning phase, both from a design perspective, a financial perspective, buffer that front end so you don't feel rushed and trust the process. If you hire us. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Align yourself with a good team, right, Kelly, that you can you can trust them to make sound decisions on your behalf.

Final Takeaways And Closing

Lyssia Katan 56:31

Alana, Kelly, this has been amazing. I've learned so much. This was very entertaining, and I'm so grateful for your time. Thank you for educating us all about everything you do. And I know our listeners are gonna get a lot out of this podcast. Thank you for having us. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for spending this time with me on Broom2th. If you enjoyed this episode, feel free to follow the show, subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who you think would really appreciate a more thoughtful approach to their space. You can find more design meets psychology insights on social, in our community, and definitely in upcoming episodes so you can build a better life by design. Thanks again for listening. I'll see you next time.