Space Beyond Square Footage

In this episode, Lyssia sits down with Shavonda Gardner, an interior designer, writer, and small-space expert rethinking what it really means to live well at home. Known for her bold, moody, and deeply personal interiors, Shavonda has built her work around a belief most people forget: just because a home is small does not mean your life, style, or sense of possibility has to be.

The conversation breaks down why so many people assume they need more square footage, when what they may actually need is a home that works better. Shavonda shares how downsizing into her family’s cottage bungalow changed the way she thinks about space, connection, and what a home is actually supposed to do. They explore why bigger homes can sometimes create more emotional distance, how small spaces can teach consideration and closeness, and why rooms designed for real life do not always look perfect on camera.

Shavonda also shares why so many people decorate for resale value instead of the life they are living right now, how social media can make us question our own taste, and why designing for some imaginary future buyer can keep us from creating a home that actually feels like ours. From dark paint colors and layered materials to aging brass, scratched soapstone, imperfect tile, and rooms that hold memory, she explains why the most meaningful homes are often the ones that show evidence of life.

The conversation also gets into why perfection can make a home feel less human, why entertaining before your house is “done” can create deeper connection, and how small design choices can completely change the way a space feels. Shavonda makes the case for homes that are personal, functional, emotional, and bold — not because they are impressive to other people, but because they support the people living inside them every day.

By the end of this episode, you may realize that your home does not need to be bigger, brighter, or more universally appealing to be better. It may just need to work harder, feel more personal, and give you permission to live the way you actually want to live.

More Room to Think:

Shavonda Gardner
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sgardnerstyle/
Website: https://sgstyleblog.com/

Room to Think
https://roomtothinkpodcast.com/

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Transcript

Cold Open And Big Question

Speaker 1 0:00

Life is way too short to be living in boring ass rooms. We were living in our home, and I just kind of realized one day, like, huh, we're not really using all of this house.

Lyssia Katan 0:11

Do you think that sometimes bigger homes create almost emotional distance?

Speaker 1 0:18

Spend less time thinking about making a space, quote unquote, feel bigger or appear bigger. I don't think what you need is a space to feel more bigger, what you need is a space to work better.

Lyssia Katan 0:31

Do you think often people decorate or make decisions too much for resale value than how they actually want to live in their house? Girl. What if the reason your home never feels quite right has nothing to do with square footage? Maybe the problem isn't that you need more space, but that no one ever taught you how to truly live in the space you already

Meet Shavonda Gardner

Lyssia Katan 1:00

have. Welcome to Rune to Think. Today I'm sitting down with Shavonda Gardner. She's an interior designer, writer, and small space expert, known for her bold, moody interiors and her belief that homes should be designed around feeling, not perfection. This episode was such a fun one. Shivanda is hilarious, deeply honest, and completely unapologetic about the way she thinks people should live in their homes. We get into why bigger homes can sometimes create more emotional distance, why so many people design for resale instead of real life, and how social media has made us question our own sense of taste. We also explore why dark spaces are deeply misunderstood and why perfection can actually make a home feel less human. By the end of this episode, you may finally give yourself permission to stop designing for some imaginary future buyer and start designing for the person actually paying the mortgage. Let's get into it. Hello, Shivonda. I'm so excited to have you on the show. Shivanda Gardner is a Sacramento-based interior designer, stylist, and writer known for her moody layered spaces and her belief that small homes can live large with intention. Through her platform, she shares a deeply personal approach to design that prioritizes storytelling, individuality, and how a space makes you feel. Shivanda, welcome to Room to Think. Hi, thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 1 2:29

And thanks for that amazing intro. I don't think I could have said it better myself.

Lyssia Katan 2:34

Well, you've done some pretty amazing things, but starting from the beginning, what is it exactly that you do and why do you do it?

Speaker 1 2:41

So I am an interior designer, and I think most people kind of recognize me more so from my social media content creation world. Um and what I do is really share my life at home and share inspiration and help guide people that prefer to live in small homes. I am a small space expert, I guess you would say, um, through my lived experience of downsizing into our little cottage bungalow with two children, a great dane, and really choosing to live in a home that really meets us where we are, and we have just enough space without this need to feel like we need more. And um within that, as a designer, not allowing a small space to limit my desire for a home that feels beautiful and bold, and um yeah, so that's really I guess what I do, if you will.

Lyssia Katan 3:55

I love that. That's a great place to start. So, what made you want to start with or want to go into small homes? Because it's not a very common

Downsizing And Living With Less

Lyssia Katan 4:05

thing that is being done.

Speaker 1 4:06

Yeah, I think so. What really made me want to do it is we lived in a larger house before. You know, we started out, um, you know, we had two kids, they were younger, and we were like, oh, like most people felt like we needed all this space, right? We need room for them to grow, we need space for them to play and all of this. And um at the same time that we moved into our first house, I was really just starting out in my design career and trying to find really what I loved within the world of design. And I quickly realized that I love small spaces. Um and while that was happening, I was also very inspired by other people that I was close with in the like content blogging world, really, because this was back before like mainstream social media. It was very much just bloggers. Um and I we were living in our home, and I just kind of realized one day, like, huh, we're not really using all of this house. We only actively live in about half of it, right? So I just kind of took stock of what are the spaces that we are truly actively living in on a day-to-day basis? What are the spaces that make up the kind of foundational footprint of how we live our lives in this home? And I realized it was only about half the square footage of what the house was. So at that point, I was like, you know, I think I think we might want to think about downsizing. And it was a conversation that took a while. My wife was not immediately on board, naturally. She was like, What do you mean? We have this house, there's all this space, we have kids, they're gonna grow. Like, I don't want to move again, you know, all of the things. That's really what kind of inspired me to go specifically into small space design, is because I realized that you know, we we probably we don't need as much space as we think we do. I I find um through the work that I do. And I also found that there is a hole in the market around people choosing to intentionally live small. I think a lot of times people feel like a small space is a stepping stone to something bigger, or a small space feels like um uh a sacrifice or like they are losing something when really these homes and these spaces can be so magical and um so much more than what people give them credit for.

Lyssia Katan 6:54

Was there a small space that inspired you to embark on this journey?

Speaker 1 6:59

Um, I think there were a few. I I had a friend, an online friend, who had downsized her family. And so watching her go through the process felt very inspiring. I also um, and and by the way, her name was Dana, and she had a blog called House Tweaking. And all the OG bloggers and OG, like original people in the design and like home interiors content creation world will be very familiar with Dana. She's been offline now for years, and I still miss her presence in the space. But um, yes, watching her family downsize into their home and sharing that process was very inspiring. But also I was very inspired by my grandmother's

Small Homes As A Choice

Speaker 1 7:45

house, by my own personal experience in my, you know, growing up um and spending a lot of time in my grandmother's house in Louisiana. And it was just a very humble home. Um, and it just felt like a mansion. I mean, obviously, you know, when you're little, like your perception of space and size and things are like way off. But I just always had so many fond memories of that home. And like I said, it's quite humble. It's not big at all. Um, but it was where she raised, you know, my dad and my uncle and my aunt, her grandchildren, you know, family, friends, and all of this life happened and all of these memories happen in this small home. And um, it is the home that she lived in up until, you know, her death. And I just remember that feeling. And I remember thinking, I want my children, I want my friends, and I want my family to feel that as far as my own personal home. So that's really, really what kind of inspired my own personal journey into to small homes for sure.

Lyssia Katan 9:11

That is so beautiful. And I was gonna ask you about your grandmother's home because you said that that's you said in your videos, that's the first place you felt loved. How do you recreate that in your own home and make sure your kids and your family and friends are experiencing that?

Speaker 1 9:26

Um, I think the way that I recreate that is always to lead with how I want something to feel and less about how I not less about how I want it to look. Let's be real. I want things to look very beautiful as a designer. Of course. But I think more than anything, I lead with what do I want this space to feel like? How do I want people to feel in it? And how does this space need to serve us? And

Grandmother’s House And The Feeling

Speaker 1 9:55

that's really how I go about the design process for my own personal home. It's how I go about the design process when I work with clients. That's the number one thing is how does this space need to feel? How does this space need to make you feel? And how does this space uh need to greet you? What do you need from it? And I think when we start there, we kind of can filter out a lot of fluff and a lot of things that won't end up serving you in the end.

Lyssia Katan 10:26

And since it you are working with smaller spaces, do they need to serve multiple purposes?

Speaker 1 10:33

Yes, most often they do. You know, the living room is also the office, is also also the TV room, is also the guest room, you know, if you have a pullout, is also um a gathering space, is also, you know, it's it's it needs to serve multiple purposes most often in a small space for sure.

Lyssia Katan 10:53

And so you have to adjust for the feelings that

Designing For Function And Emotion

Lyssia Katan 10:55

you want at different times when that space is being used.

Speaker 1 10:58

Correct. Yeah.

Lyssia Katan 10:59

Do you think that sometimes bigger homes create almost emotional distance between the people living in them because they're so far apart?

Speaker 1 11:06

Yes, I do think that that can happen. I think that that tends to happen um often. I mean, obviously not all the time, not every every home is that way. But I certainly felt like in our last home, you know, everyone kind of went off in their own separate corners, right? Like, and that tends to happen when you have so much space. People can tend to take that space and um kind of kind of hide out there. I've had many conversations with people that say, like, you know, they haven't seen their partner, they haven't seen their kids, or like their kids somewhere around here, like they don't really know and they don't really come together very often. They just kind of go in their own separate corners. And that's fine. But I do find, you know, there's a there's an adage that says like small homes create close families, and that is absolutely true. I think just physical proximity makes it so. Um, you know, when there's not 3,000 square feet for you to retreat to, um, you know, everyone kind of lives close together. You're just kind of in one another, uh one another space a lot more often. Um, but I think there's a really beautiful um lesson in small home living as well. And I and I know for sure my family has reaped the benefits of that. You learn to be considerate, you learn to understand other people and your surroundings, right? When there's one bathroom to share for a family, you learn to clean up after yourself. You learn to go in, do what you need to do, and get out. You learn to be considerate of other people's times, other people's needs. Um and these are things that often kind of get overlooked just by way of space. If you live in a home and there's four bathrooms and everybody gets their own bathroom, you don't necessarily have to consider other people's needs. Um, but when there's only one and you have to share it, you absolutely have to think about someone other than yourself and how that person might need um what their needs might be.

Lyssia Katan 13:19

That's so interesting. And and and your kids are very lucky that you're teaching them so young because it it's almost like at least in the US, very often people don't experience that until they're in a shared space, like a college dorm. And and that's when the friction arises because they've

When Big Homes Create Distance

Lyssia Katan 13:35

always had their own bathroom. So your kids are very lucky to be learning that early on. Everything is going to be spacious for them.

Speaker 1 13:42

I mean, I as a mom, I think I'm winning, right? But tell that to a teenage daughter and a teenage son that are both trying to get into the same space at the same time. It is not big, you know, it's it's not easy. It's definitely not easy. Um, but it's worth it and it is absolutely doable. I mean, people used to raise six kids in two bedrooms and one bathroom. So, you know, it is definitely possible and doable. Yeah.

Lyssia Katan 14:15

Teaches you a lot about conflict management too between your kids.

Speaker 1 14:19

Yes, it does. And communication for sure.

Lyssia Katan 14:22

Yeah. It's a lesson they learn young. So you describe your style. I mean, you have a beautiful style. Your page is just, I mean, I would encourage any of our listeners to go check it out. Um, and we will link it in the show notes, of course, but you describe your style as moody, eclectic, and layered and globally inspired. What do you think a perfectly designed room often gets wrong?

Speaker 1 14:47

Oh, that's a good question. When you say a perfectly designed room, what do you mean?

Lyssia Katan 14:53

Like what that

Pinterest Rooms Vs Real Living

Lyssia Katan 14:55

I mean, however you would take it. Like sometimes we do get those cookie-cutter spaces that we see in the magazines. And your style is it's very not cookie-cutter. And that's what makes it so beautiful. What do you think those spaces are getting wrong?

Speaker 1 15:08

Um, I think oftentimes those spaces tend to lack uh the human experience. Um, I think oftentimes, you know, we live in a world right now that is very, very visible. It's all about what is interest worthy, what looks good, you know, when you snap a picture or what looks good on camera. Um and I have found that oftentimes the best, most wonderfully designed spaces for living do not photograph well. Um, and I would say that for my own personal home. There are spaces in my home that I feel like do not look good on camera. Like they just don't, they just don't photograph well because maybe the light is coming in from a weird angle on camera, or maybe you know, a chair doesn't make sense there, or there's something that's getting cut off on the screen. However, when you walk into this space and you are living in the space and you are using it and the flow of the space, it absolutely feels amazing. And there's just no way that that can be captured on camera. Um, so I do think that sometimes those, you know, perfectly pinned Pinterest worthy spaces that look great on camera tend to get the lived experience wrong. They tend to get wrong how people are actually using the space. Like, yeah, it looks great, but you know, there you could tell like someone's gonna bang their knee on that chair eight times a day, or you know, like the lighting is gonna be way too harsh, or no one's actually gonna sit there because you know, it's gonna be like it's it's in a weird spot or whatever. And I think that's really the difference between like styling for editorial, like you have to, you have to have things a certain way in a in a photo. Um, but that doesn't mean that that that that's how you're actually living and using the space day to day.

Lyssia Katan 17:19

Do you think that in us seeing all these stylized shoots, we're putting really high expectations of ourselves to be living like that?

Speaker 1 17:27

Oh, one thousand percent. One thousand percent. And I think it also um can create a sense of people questioning their own personal sense of, you know, desire, things that they want, things that they are personally drawn to. Um, if they're not seeing that represented, or if they're not seeing that that is uh desirable, if they're feeling like it's not of the trend or in the moment, um, people will tend to kind of ignore their own feeling and go for the thing that's really hot right now, or really pretty, or that's doing really well, or things that they're, you know, that's that's sold right now in stores. Um, and that could be really sad, you know. I've I've come across that a lot. And uh a few people actually recently I've come across uh people saying, you know, I designed my house for what felt popular and trendy and I hate it. And now they're having to kind of start over. Um so yeah, that it can definitely put pressure on people to have their home look a certain way when that's not even really what they like.

Lyssia Katan 18:41

Yeah, that's an expensive, you know, decision to make. And and it's and it's interesting how often we think about the way other people are gonna perceive our home versus us, the people who are living in there every single day. Yes. Yeah. Like you host three times a year. What are you designing your kitchen for guests for? Why? Yep. Your spaces, they feel very personal

Using Rooms The Way You Do

Lyssia Katan 19:05

and collected over time. Is there something in your home that makes absolutely no sense to anyone else, but means everything to you? Um there are many things. I'd love to hear them all.

Speaker 1 19:20

Yeah. I yes. There are many things, I think. Um, oh gosh, where do I even start? I think here's what I'll do. I will go with a big design decision and not necessarily like a material thing. Um, I think the a big design decision that we made in our home that most people probably would not have made, and it it probably won't make sense for a lot of people, but it made absolutely all the sense in the world to me and to how our family lives. And that is we got rid of our dining, quote unquote dining room. I mean, we never really had a dining room, let's be honest, because cottage bungalow. But we but we like got rid of what is technically a dining space um when we did our kitchen renovation, and we actually opted to forego like a kitchen island and we put our dining room table in the middle of our kitchen. And again, that's not necessarily um, it's not like this new theory. Like it's I didn't reinvent the wheel here, but it's certainly not something that most people would have done. I think people um feel like everything, like the space that says that the space is, right? The floor plan says this is a dining room, so I have to use it as a dining room. The floor plan says this is a bedroom, so I have to use it as a bedroom. Um, I think most people would not have made that decision, but it made the most sense for our family at the time, for our home, for the way we live in the home. And again, very inspired by my grandmother's kitchen, who always had a table in the middle of her little tiny kitchen. And that is where we had all of our meals um growing up my whole entire life. And so I never thought about gosh, why is there a table in the middle of the kitchen? It's already so small, it's already so cramped. I never thought that ever. I just remember feeling so close and so loved and um, you know, it feeling quite efficient, if I'm being honest. Um and so I'd say that's probably a decision that we made that it wouldn't make sense for most people, um, but it made all the sense in the world to me and to us.

Lyssia Katan 21:55

Yeah, it seems like so many, like so many people today. They want the kitchen island and they want the separate dining room, but like realistically speaking, most of the time everyone's gathered around the kitchen island. Like you're not using that dining room nearly as often as you plan to. Are there projects that you've worked with a client and really said, all right, this is a dining room bedroom? We're gonna make it something totally different. And they were kind of skeptical at first, but they trusted your process.

Speaker 1 22:26

I wouldn't say I worked with someone who felt like the space wasn't meant to be a thing. I think more so my clients tend to be a little not skeptical, but a little bit hesitant about some of my like color choices. Like design-wise, it just feels maybe a little scary. Um, but not necessarily like, hey, we need to reinvent how we're gonna use this space. Like, let's think about a way to make this space work better. Um and I think that's mainly because when I most people that are coming to work with me, especially if they are living in a small home, just already have an understanding that uh we have to use space differently. Um, you know, we have we have to use rooms differently and things like that. So there's they're not necessarily skeptical, skeptical

Dark Paint Myths And Cozy Spaces

Speaker 1 23:25

of using a space differently. It's more so like, are you sure you want us to use that dark of a color? This room doesn't really have a lot of light. You know, it's kind of that kind of thing.

Lyssia Katan 23:35

That brings me to really my next question that you do use a lot of dark colors and and and in ways that still feel really warm and inviting. What do people misunderstand about darker interiors?

Speaker 1 23:47

I think that people immediately see dark and think it's gonna make the room smaller. Like they just are like, no way, it's gonna make the room smaller. We need to go light and bright and bring in more space. And I think the biggest thing to realize is it, I don't care what color you paint your walls, the paint is not giving you more square footage. It is. It's not gonna make the room bigger. It, you know, like it's it's just not. And I think spend less time thinking about making a space, quote unquote, feel bigger or appear bigger. Um, I don't think what you need is a space to feel or appeal bigger. What you need is a space to work better. And oftentimes um what that looks like is embracing what you have, right? If the space is already kind of feeling dark and it already doesn't get a ton of light, you you going in there painting the rooms white is not going to work. It is going to feel off, it is going to feel dingy, it is going to feel like almost um clinical, you know, no matter how warm of a white you use or cream or whatever. Um, I think when we start to embrace what the space already is, we can change the story. You change the narrative through the design and through um, yeah, through the color choices, through the design, through the way that you create the space and work with it instead of working against it.

Lyssia Katan 25:20

That's kind of a hot take to some people, though, because it's just been done for so long. But a small white wall room looks a lot more like a doctor's office than it does a living room. Correct. And I like what you're saying about just lean in. If it's tiny, lean into it. Make it make it cozy, make it feel small.

Speaker 1 25:41

Yes, make it cozy, make it layered, bring in, you know, beautiful prints, beautiful fabrics, bring in texture, things that you're going to physically experience in the space. Um, and it will it will feel warm, it'll feel like uh almost like woomy. Um, and it will be a space that you will spend the majority of your time in. It that will become that will it will go from a space that you hated, that you're like, oh, I don't like to be in here. It feels off, it feels weird, to a space that when somebody's looking for you, that's where you're gonna be. You're gonna be like ducked out in the space that you once hated that you now love because you have given it intention, you've given it purpose, and yeah, now it now it'll be your favorite room in the house for sure.

The Resale Value Soapbox

Lyssia Katan 26:35

And you almost allow it to be what it is rather than trying to make it something else.

Speaker 1 26:40

Exactly.

Lyssia Katan 26:41

Do you think often people decorate or make decisions too much for resale value than how they actually want to live in their house?

Speaker 1 26:51

Girl, now now you're about to get me um you're really about to get me on my soapbox now. Because I the number of times that I have this conversation, the number of times I have this conversation, and I think it's pretty layered here, right? I think I think we I need to start by saying it depends on what your intention on in the house is from the beginning. If you are just like, I am only buying this house, I am only gonna live in this house for three years, I have absolutely no intention on making this my home, this is a transitional space, whatever. If you go into living in your home or whatever, buying a home, if we're since we're talking about resale, if you go into buying a home with that mindset in mind, then maybe this doesn't apply to you, right? But if you are buying this home with the intent for you to live in it, for it to be a space for you to raise a family or create a life in, whatever, then yes, we're gonna get on this soapbox, right? The the number one piece of advice I could tell people is what some potential one-day possible home buyer might think of your home or your design choices or what you want to do in your home right now is absolutely none of your business. Absolutely none of your business. It does not matter. It does not matter. They're gonna go in and change it no matter what, right? Say you want a beautiful pattern tile because you were inspired by your recent trip to Mexico, and all you've thought about ever since is terracotta floors with like a pattern tile backsplash, right? And you're like, I want my kitchen to feel like that trip I went to in Mexico and I love it, and I can't stop thinking about it. But instead of doing that, you decide, but it's probably better if I just do a white subway tile and go with, you know, quartzite counters and white cabinets because that's what's going to sell better. You're literally designing your home. You are renting your house from a future buyer. That's what you're doing when you make that decision. You are paying a mortgage on a home, paying for the upkeep on a home, living in that home for years and years and years, but you are acting like a renter in your own house. I can promise you, when the next person moves into that house, they are getting rid of that white subway tile, they're getting rid of those white cabinets because their style is not going to be yours, right? They're gonna go in and they're gonna change it. So now you have just lived for the last five years in this sterile ass kitchen because you felt like the future buyer will want to see white subway tile. When you could have been living in the hacienda kitchen of your dreams for the past five years, and maybe guess what? The buyer's gonna come in and be like, oh my God, this is amazing. Every other kitchen I've seen so far has been white subway tile and quartzite counters, and this one has color and texture and pattern, and I love it, and I don't want to touch it, right? Maybe that's the story, or maybe they do come in and say, you know, this kitchen isn't really my style, but I love that these people enjoyed their house and you could tell they really love this home. And now I get to enjoy the home in the same way they did, but with my style. I need us to stop. I need us to stop doing that. I also understand that sometimes we move into a house with a five-year plan, and that five years turns to seven, which turns to nine, which turns to ten. It happens all the time, right? Buying a home is a big investment. You start to create a family, you start to create a community. Maybe you have a child. Your child starts to grow up in this house. Next thing you know, you've created all these memories and you've really implanted yourself in this space, and maybe you don't want to move. Maybe your original plan to move is not the same anymore, right? So I think we have to stop treating the homes that we live in as transitional spaces, as just kind of like one foot in the door and one foot out the door. And I think we need to start to truly live in our homes. And that means giving ourselves to create the spaces that we want to create. And whatever Susie, homemaker or Jeff the builder, might do when they buy it, truly is none of your business, honey, because when you sign on that dotted line, when you sign on that dotted line and you are no longer the owner and you get your equity check or whatever the situation, they are not going to think twice about anything that you've done in this house. They're gonna be steadfast into making it work for them. So we just gotta stop. It is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen in my life. I mean, think about it. Like when you are a renter, the number one thing you do is complain. Oh my God, I can't wait till I get my house so I can paint all the walls and do all the things I want to do. Or oh, this kitchen and this rental could be so much better if it had, you know, blue cabinets and and, you know, like a marble, whatever. You you dream all of these things when you're a renter. And then as soon as you get in your house, what do you do? You act like you ain't renter again. So it's like, why are we doing this? Oh my gosh, why are we doing this?

Lyssia Katan 32:42

Right.

Speaker 1 32:43

No, yeah, no, we need to stop doing that.

Lyssia Katan 32:46

You are absolutely right. You're absolutely right, and I back that a hundred percent. We're waiting and waiting and waiting. Like he said, five years turns into 10, turns into 20, and you never get the kitchen of your dreams.

Speaker 1 32:59

Yep, or the space that you want, or you know, whatever. Like you just, I just can't, I can't abide it. And I always push people, I always challenge people. And the funny thing about it is, right, the the spaces that a lot of people are really drawn to when they open their favorite, you know, up architectural digest or L design or whatever, um, House Beautiful, Veranda magazine, whatever their favorite shelter magazine is, right? The homes and the spaces that they are most often inspired by and drawn to are the ones that are so full of color. They've done something so different, so unique, right? And these are people's homes. These are spaces that people actually physically live in. And that's something that you're inspired by and something that you feel like you want to do with your own home, and yet you still won't do it. And we have to we have to ask ourselves why, right? Why?

Lyssia Katan 34:05

So, what's the fear? Life is not long enough to be living with white cabinets.

Speaker 1 34:11

It isn't. Life is way too short to be living in boring ass rooms. No, ma'am, we're not doing that. We're not doing that.

Lyssia Katan 34:21

We're not doing that. So, speaking of traveling and finding tiles that you love, actually, I'm I'm glad we were talking about this because that's kind of how I stumbled upon you and your work because you reposted

Morocco Inspiration And Zellige Tiles

Lyssia Katan 34:35

a video that we posted through Lily Tile talking about Zaliege tiles. And you mentioned your trip to Morocco. I would love to hear about it.

Speaker 1 34:44

Yes. Uh, so travel is probably the number one uh kind of reference point for my like design and why I love it so much. I grew up, my parents were in the army, and so I grew up moving around a lot as a kid. I lived in Germany as a child. Uh, so I got to experience other cultures and ways that other people live. And I've just always been inspired by it. And yes, a few years ago, I went to Morocco. I actually went twice in one year and got to really experience the entirety of the country. Um, and it was just so incredible. It was one of the best, most inspiring places I've ever been, especially as a designer and a creative. And Zalie Tile is so beautiful and so special. And, you know, it's one of the things that when I left Morocco, I never stopped thinking about. Um, and I and I just I love it so much. So, yes, when I came across your um reel about Zalish Child, I was just like, oh my gosh, yes. You know, and people giving people basically an education as to what it is, why it's special, um, is something that I was really just kind of drawn to, like a matua flame, really.

Lyssia Katan 36:15

And how do you explain the imperfections to people, like to Americans, really? Because in Morocco, Zalish holes are everywhere and people know they're chipped and scratched, and that's just part of the beauty.

Speaker 1 36:25

Yes, it's everywhere. It's literally on the sidewalks, on the sides of buildings. I mean, it's just it's literally everywhere. It's like as common as how we see concrete, right? It's it's literally everywhere. And um, the thing that makes it so beautiful is the human touch. It cannot be replicated. They are individually made by hand. Somebody's fingers touched it. Everyone was made, you know, so uniquely. And that is the beauty, that is the life, that is what uh when you bring that into your space, that is what makes it different and unique and special. And that is what you feel uh when you're in the space. And every color of the rainbow, if you can imagine it, you're gonna find it in the leach. And the patterns, right? Like it's just so incredible. I think if there's any one place that I think everybody should be able to experience at least once in their life, it has to be Morocco. I mean, it is just it's just incredible.

Lyssia Katan 37:37

Incredible. I couldn't agree more. And us working with Zalise, very often we have the American consumer that's just used to perfect. And when they receive their tile and they're like, it's chipped, it's scratched, I want to send it back. I wish I could teleport them to Morocco and say, it's art. Like people spend years of their life learning how to create this craft. And you want to send it back because it has chips and scratch, you know, you're just you're not the kind of person that will appreciate it.

Speaker 1 38:09

I I'm ugh, I love the leaf so much.

Lyssia Katan 38:12

Yeah, me too. And it's it's so nice to have in a world like today where everything just looks like everything else and it's a breath of fresh air, but for people who are willing and open to understand that. Yeah. Yeah. So your work is very layered with stories, right? The stories about your grandmother's house and the space that you want to, you know, how you want to make people feel. What's a design choice in your house that has the strongest memory attached to it? Do you think it would be the kitchen?

Speaker 1 38:43

Um, yes. Yeah. Right now, I would say um, I would say it's the kitchen for sure. Uh I'm currently designing um in addition. We are, after 12 years of being in our house, we're finally getting a second bathroom. This is big news. It's cute.

Lyssia Katan 39:01

The kids are probably thrilled in the store.

Speaker 1 39:04

Well, they're upset because they're adults now. So they're like, you wait until we grow up and graduate to finally get a second bathroom in the cell.

Lyssia Katan 39:16

I've had that with my parents, with my our garage door, you know. They they decide to go electric the second I graduate high school, and I always forgot my key at home. So I had to climb my way to leave the house. The second I graduate, there's having an electric garage door.

Speaker 1 39:31

I don't know what to tell you. Correct. Correct. So that's where we are right now. We're in, you know, currently in the middle of designing um uh our uh a bathroom, a second bathroom in a closet. We're actually creating a primary

A Kitchen Built From Memory

Speaker 1 39:45

suite, which we don't have right now. Um and that space, I think, will be very, very layered in story and inspired by just like things that we love, but right now it's absolutely the kitchen. My entire kitchen was designed at the heart of it, was my grandmother's kitchen. I mean, even down to the the layout of it, it's very reminiscent of my grandmother's kitchen. Um, and kind of the story that I wanted to tell is, you know, I wanted it to feel very imperfect, right? Um, I wanted it to feel like if a rustic French cottage kitchen met a quirky English kitchen and they went on vacation to uh Africa or New Orleans. Like that's kind of the vibe. It's the only way I can describe it, right? Things about the kitchen are very, very it's very like English inspired, you know, traditional shaker cabinets, um beautiful like soapstone countertops, French copper um cookware. Uh we did this beautiful custom colored floral wallpaper. Um it's so it and you know, unlacquered brass, things that will patina. So it feels very like European, very, very European. Um but the colors remind me of, you know, Louisiana. They remind me of, which is French inspired, as you know. Um, and so yeah, like the colors remind me of that. Um and you know, it was something that I wanted all of these different things that I love to to blend and mesh. And that's kind of the space that was created because of it.

Lyssia Katan 41:53

That's beautiful. I've seen I've seen it. I it it looks so beautiful. I mean, I've seen it on your videos. Thank you. You mentioned the the unlacquered brass and the copper. How

Patina, Wear, And Human Touch

Lyssia Katan 42:05

do you accept like the aging of materials? Because a lot of people don't don't accept the aging of brass or of copper.

Speaker 1 42:13

For me, I just have an understanding that things are meant to age, just like we do. We are meant to age, right? Like the goal in life is to get old. Last I checked, I don't want to die young. You know, I I want to be an old lady, you know. I want to live a long, beautiful life. And with that means there's no way I'm gonna look like a newborn baby at 90, something years old, right? Things age, and that is the goal, that is the purpose in life. And I think it's the same for materials. Things are not meant to look perfectly brand new, encapsulated in time. Um and materials that literally live and age are again, it's another thing that makes uh a space feel storied. It makes a space feel special. Um, you could tell like that life has been lived here. Um, and it's why I intentionally chose materials that would age, that would absolutely not be perfect. If you walk in my kitchen right now, my countertops are like battered. It's soapstone. The the more nicks and scratches it gets, the more beautiful it gets to me. Um our counters, I mean our cabinetry, right? Like they're painted. So they're the colors wearing off in certain places that we use and touch every day. Um, you know, like everything about this space. Is meant to feel lived in. And that is that is part of like going to the heart of how a space, how a space makes you feel and what you want the space to feel like for other people. And I think also sometimes we have this perception that when somebody walks into our home that they're like looking behind the cabinets, they're looking behind the curtains, like, oh, you did, I see dust on your, you know, on your baseboards, or like, oh, you know, there's like a low, uh a real cobweb up in that corner that you miss. No one is doing that. People are people are not freaking home inspectors, right? They're not walking into your house with a clipboard and a pen to check off boxes. That is not what they're there for. And if you have friends that are like that, honey, they are not your friend. Okay, let's let's just let's just let's just put that out there. If somebody is walking to your home doing that and making you feel that way, I think you need to maybe question their place in your life. That's a different podcast for a different day. But I think that people, when they walk into your home, they just want, they want to feel like it's you. They want to walk in and they just want to be like, they don't care, right? That's another, that's another kind of tenet of what I do, in addition to you know, helping people in space or embrace their small homes. And it's a really big thing is live in, live in and love your home at every

Hosting Before The Home Is Perfect

Speaker 1 45:40

stage, even when it's not quite where you want it to be. Entertain in your home when it's not perfect. Have your friends over for a dinner when you're still trying to figure out the paint color and there's swatches all over your walls, right? Have seriously host your friends when your home is not perfect, when it's not really necessarily where you want it to be. Number one, that shows them the humanity in you. It shows them the humanity in your home. It welcomes them in. And so they feel almost like they're a part of the process of you creating your home. They're gonna remember, like when that home is done, when you have picked up wallpaper, when you have finished the floors, when you have finally gotten your dream sofa, whatever the situation is, they're gonna come back and they're gonna remember and be like, oh my God. I remember when you were trying to figure out paint colors in this room and look at it now, and they're gonna remember that feeling of like, oh my God, we had the best dinner. The wine was so amazing. And now we get to have that same thing in this space that's so beautiful and feels great. And they're gonna feel like they're part of it. As humans, we wanna feel like we're part of something. We're part of a community, we're part of um, you know, something that feels really special and really personal. And kind of bringing people in at all of these various times does that. And it also gives you more of a connection to your home, to your interiors and to your spaces. And I think that's really that's the goal, at least for me and my ministry in this world of design. That is that is my lane, really.

Lyssia Katan 47:23

You know, no one's actually ever mentioned that, but I think it's so true in things outside the home, too, that of course it works with the home. Like your friends from when you're young, from high school, from college, maybe, but you remember the times they were deciding do I go to med school, do I go to law school, do I take a job with this company? And you remember the struggles they went through to become the people and the professionals that they are today, or very established in their fields. You're like, I remember when you were just deciding and you could have gone a totally different path. And you feel like you're part of their like building, part of building them and part of their creation because you were there to support them or help them make decisions and give them some you know feedback. And we just don't think about that in our homes. We expect people to come in and it's gotta be perfect and the pain has to be done. And and and and something about what you were saying earlier, I think is hysterical because it's like when when you had guests growing up and your mom would make you clean your room, and you're like, are the guests going in my room? Like, why does that be Margaret me doing cleaning?

Speaker 1 48:30

Correct.

Lyssia Katan 48:30

So it's it's the imperfection.

Speaker 1 48:33

Your kids' room might be messy, and that just is what it is. Because they're kids and they're, you know, it's their space.

Lyssia Katan 48:40

Yeah. Yeah. And people want to feel like they're part of something, and they don't want to feel like we put so much pressure on ourselves in this world to be perfect or look perfect or appear perfect. And when we're none of us is perfect. When we see vulnerability, we're like, okay, I get you're human. I'm a human. We got we we can connect on something. We're both of us have messy kitchen countertops right now. Okay, it is what it is. Yep.

Speaker 1 49:06

And it and again, like I think sometimes it could also create a feeling, a little bit of um other people feeling. I mean, almost like as a guest, like, oh, like, I am I allowed to touch anything, like, can I sit here? You know, they they people show up in the space feeling a little bit like, okay, I gotta be on my P's and Q's. Like, I can't, I can't, you know, I gotta, I gotta be, I have to feel like I belong in this space. Right? And like, no, honey, when my friends come over, I expect you to be the person that you are. Like, no, we're not, there's no pretense here, you know. Um, so yeah.

Lyssia Katan 49:50

It just fosters a better space for connection, too.

Speaker 1 49:53

I agree. Yeah.

Lyssia Katan 49:54

Do you think that homes today are becoming too optimized and

Tech, Timers, And Keeping Life Analog

Lyssia Katan 50:00

not emotional enough? Yes. Get out the soapbox.

Speaker 1 50:06

I do. It's you know what? It's a double-edged sword. I mean, the reality is that we live in a time of incredibly advanced technology, right? Like every time you turn around, there's a new thing. AI has there's a new thing, right? You get where you can literally like walk up to you don't even have to touch anything in your house anymore. You walk up, lights automatically turn on, doors automatically unlock, they lock themselves back, your AC turns on automatically, like you know, the coffee pot starts on its own. There's so I mean, your mobile app can literally do almost anything in your house, right? And I think there's I think technology obviously is a wonderful thing, right? It gives us so much more advancement and the opportunity for things that we would never have even dreamed of. But I also think there is a strong case for making some things analog, for making some things require human touch, require your thought and your intention, um, and require you to move in a space uh according to how you want to do it and not how tech has been set up for you to do it. So, yes, I do think that our homes have started to become just a just a little a little too optimized, a little iRobot, you know, where we try to keep a we try to we try to keep a balance. In our home, we do not have Siri, we do not have Google home, we do not nothing, nothing that talks, nothing that talks to us um is allowed in our home. But that doesn't, you know, like that doesn't mean like there's never gonna be Siri, can you turn up the radio? Never, not in our house. But you know, but there are also other things, other technologies that we absolutely love. I absolutely love having my light set on the timer, honey. 6 p.m. on the docked, those lamps are turning on, right? And that and at midnight, they're turning themselves back off, right? I'm a designer, I have a shit ton of lamps in my house. I love that soft, you know, 27 Kelvin warm, beautiful light throughout my house. And I don't necessarily want to go and have to flip them all on, right? Like it's great having those set on a timer, you know, like it's great having those set on a timer. It's great having our blinds set on a timer to come up in the morning at sunrise and at sun, yeah, sunrise, and then come down by themselves in the evening at sunset. That's a really lovely um way to kind of like set the next part of what the house is going to be for the day. But I still want to use a record player. I want to put a record player in the record. I still want to um, you know, have to use a physical vacuum, not an iRobot vacuum. I still want, you know, like there are just certain things that I still want our home to feel like a good balance of we are a modern family, we are a modern world. And also I still want to hold on to a little bit of that old world, like analog feeling of life. For sure.

Lyssia Katan 53:37

It's like that movie Smart House, the Disney movie, where it's like at first it's so nice, like she's talking, she's turning on the lights, she's cooking food, all this, and then suddenly she takes over and you're like, whoa, wait a second. I did not agree to this. Exactly. Yeah, it's about finding a balance for sure. So if someone listening to this podcast feels disconnected from their home right now, what's the first thing you would tell them to change tomorrow?

Fix The Flow Before Buying Stuff

Speaker 1 54:05

I think if someone is feeling disconnected from your home, the first thing I'm gonna tell you to do is evaluate why and probably change the flow. A lot of times, people don't really understand how imperative it is to get your space planning right. Right. Um and that requires no money. It requires absolutely zero dollars to tweak your space plan uh in a way that makes the most sense for you, that feels good for your body and feels good for the way you live in your house. Um, and I think once you can kind of really get down to the heart of like how the house needs to work for you as far as the flow, then we can start working on design elements.

Lyssia Katan 54:58

Do you think that sometimes people are actually searching for something else when they're obsessing over the redesign of their house?

Speaker 1 55:05

Yeah. I mean, oftentimes we are, and I think it it becomes deeper. I think oftentimes it's like not even about the it's not even about the house. It's not even about like any of that at all. It's nothing eternal. Um but yes, I think we can become obsessive with perfection. We can become obsessive obsessive about uh what other people will think, other people's uh perception of us. And um, you know, it like it's not even about anybody else. Your home is the one thing in your life that is not about anyone but you and the people that live in it. Yeah, it's your safe haven. It's quite literally where you go to shut the door and leave everybody else in the world out. So nobody else's opinions, nobody else's thoughts, nobody else's, you know, whatever. Like that is on the outside of the door, not on the inside. And uh, I think as soon as we kind of that, as soon as that clicks in people's minds, that's kind of when the world opens up and things start to change.

Lyssia Katan 56:23

What would you want someone to take

Do You And Final Takeaways

Lyssia Katan 56:25

away from this conversation?

Speaker 1 56:27

I think what I would want people to take away the most is really like do you? It's not about other people. It's not about feeling judged by anyone else or what somebody else would do or what you think other people will think looks better or whatever. It it's I want people to take away that they have the like power to choose for themselves and to do something that they want to do. Like, like I said, this is the one time when you can really do what you want to do. When you're at job, you can't do what you want to do. You gotta follow whatever the rules are, you gotta listen to the boss or whatever, right? When we are out in society, we we can't always do what it is we want to do. There are rules and there are stipulations and there are regulations, right? To like being a productive part of a whole of a collective society. Um, we don't always get to do what it is that we want to do. And our own desires aren't always number one. But when we are talking about where we live, the the space that we live in, we absolutely have the right to do what we want. It's the one one time and one place that we can. Um and so I think kind of try to quiet, quiet the noise of what we're told and start to really listen to ourselves and our own voices about what it is that we want and what it is that we need and go from there.

Lyssia Katan 58:10

Shravanda, that I couldn't have said it better myself. That is incredible. You are so wise and you're so funny. I can literally talk to you for hours, but you the work, the work you do is so good and so impactful and so important. So thank you for sharing it with the world and showing us how to how to do it, how to add emotion to our spaces, how to create places that really support us. But I so very much appreciate your time and and this has been truly amazing. Thank you for being here.

Speaker 1 58:43

Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you so much, Lucia. And I just do want to have, I have one more thing to say. My little tagline. Please. Just because you live small doesn't mean you can't have big bold style. And just remember that your square footage does not determine how bold or how kind of like you really going there with your design. And I think small spaces make it so much easier to do that.

Lyssia Katan 59:14

Absolutely. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for spending this time with me on Room2think. If you enjoyed this episode, feel free to follow the show, subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who you think would really appreciate a more thoughtful approach to their space. You can find more Design Meets Psychology insights on social, in our community, and definitely in upcoming episodes so you can build a better life by design. Thanks again for listening. I'll see you next time.