You're welcome to the Ministry of Reconciliation podcast. Today we have a special guest, Dr. Donald Williams, from the United States of America, from South Carolina. He is the co-founder of the memoir Born of Nothing from White Trash to Leadheads. Oh, let me read it properly. From White Trash and Leadheads to purpose across generations. And what's more exciting is that his writing work is more focused on reconciliation. So today is a very special day. Welcome, Donald.
SPEAKER_00It's great to be here, Emmanuel. Thank you for uh having me as a guest on your show.
SPEAKER_01I think to begin with, uh, it would be nice for you to tell us uh this journey of yours before we go into reconciliation. Uh, what inspired you to write uh this book, uh, this work from White Trash and Leadheads to Pappas Across Generations?
SPEAKER_00Okay, so a couple of things before we begin, I want to explain the terms white trash and leadhead. White trash is a derogatory term uh aimed at poor white people in parts of the United States. Uh, and it's basically they were just those people would be considered uh no good. Um, they wouldn't, they would not work, they would steal for a living, uh, they didn't care about their health, things like that. The term lead head actually uh signifies a different class of people, which is um people who worked in cotton mills. And cotton mills in the um, say a hundred years ago were um a big part of the society here where I live. And my parents, my grandparents, they worked in these meals. And when they would come out, um, they would make blue jean cloth, like for blue jean pants that you wear. And when they would come out of these meals in the evening after work or whatever ship they were on, they would be covered in in cotton lint. And so there would be this white uh cotton fiber or uh fibers over their entire body and their clothes when they came out in the afternoon or after work, and uh people started calling them lint heads because of that. And it was at the time it was a derogatory uh comment uh because they were considered just maybe one class up above poverty. They were working for a mill that gave them a house that provided him food, they provided him a church, provided education, provided medicine, doctoral care. And so they were really just um they were um beholden to those meals and those mill operators. And that's where I came from. Well, my co-author, Jason Pike, he came from the concept of the white trash. His family was literally on the side of a mountain in a shack, living off nothing. They would steal for food. They had no type of toilets or outhouses or running water, anything like that. And so he and I both made it to college some way through just a few changes in our lives and determination. We both made it out. Now, Jason was also diagnosed with a learning disability, and we we ended up meeting at college. And uh said, I came from this poor background, and we came together and we started talking about, you know, just normal conversation. Where are you from? What are you doing? Well, in time, I ended up uh working for the United States Department of Defense as a researcher, and I worked around the world. Jason ends up being a colonel, lieutenant colonel in the U.S. Army uh in his life, and so we had always compared that concept of where we came from and that it should not dictate where you end up. That, you know, you can come from very poor or very meager beginnings and you can still be a successful person. Now, we both have a different story to tell on our successful or our journey of success. But um, we decided, Jason, this is his actual fourth book and uh in a series of kind of books about military leadership and things, and but he wanted to write this book about where he came from. And so he remembered our conversations. We had always been lifelong friends, we had always remained in contact. And he he called me and said, Hey, Donald, would you like to write this book with me? Because I know your story is interesting as well when you do that. And so we wrote this book from the concept of uh, once again, that it does you you should not let your past or your meager beginnings uh dictate where you end up in life. And so that was the purpose behind the book.
SPEAKER_01Thank you so much. And you've also written about reconciliation, reconciliation with God, uh, reconciliation with the your family history. I think that's what you've just been describing about. Uh and I like the great uh piece of that uh which says which talks about the recording reconciliation with God. Would you like to tell us uh about reconciliation with God? What do you teach about that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I would say my for me, my story is all about how God had his hand on me and how he took me through life. Uh now I want to I want everyone to know I'm not a perfect man. I know that I'm um, you know, that I'm a sinner saved by grace. I know that. And uh so I don't want anyone to ever say, well, that guy thinks he's perfect because I'm not, because I've made a lot of mistakes along the way. But in my upbringing, now I talk about uh in the book that I had 40, like 42 aunts and uncles, and I had 80 plus first cousins. And from that, from my cousins, five have met violent deaths, two were in prison, one of them was on death row, uh just a lot of problems along the way. So, kind of from a statistical standpoint, you see um the odds of kind of making it out of this situation. And so you were there, you were living in the situation where you basically said you had nothing, you owned nothing. And um, for you to get out of that situation would be very difficult. I remember, uh though, you know, people have a choice to make. I remember my grandfather getting on his knees every night for hours, and he would pray, and I would hear him praying out loud beside his bed, and he would pray. He wouldn't just pray like, God bless Emmanuel, God bless Donald, Donald. It would be, dear God, Donald needs Jesus, and I need you to help me find a way to tell him about Jesus. God, Emmanuel, he he needs um, he needs some medicine for his family. God, help me find a way to get some medicine for his family. So he never just prayed like those empty prayers. He prayed specific prayers to God, and then he would give thanks the next night for when God did that. So that was my first kind of concept of this is God. This is, you know, he's my grandfather's praying to something greater than me, greater than us. And my parents, they had become Christians when they were in their early 20s. And so then they, you know, of course, they took us to church. They did everything. I was raised in a Christian home. But I tell people, I am not a Christian today because of what my parents said, I'm a Christian today, because of me following the will of God in my life, that I read, that I learned about God. I know that about the whole concept of free choice. And I read and I decided this is what I will believe, this is what I know is true. And I believe in my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And so throughout my life, I've had, I know that his hand has directed me, guided me, uh, shown me uh maybe a different way and given me a purpose in my life that was different. I remember when I was maybe, I think, third grade, and I came to the realization that the world was bigger than the cotton mill lint head village that I lived in, that there was a world outside of this, that there was an Africa, that there was an Asia. And uh, it's so funny because I remember looking at the map, thinking, well, this is Japan, this is Korea, this is this country, this is this country, never knowing that, you know, years later that in my life that I would get to live and work in in other places of the world, and then I will get to travel away. Um, but once again, without God, and without God in my life, and without God's direction, I would not have made it. Uh, and I know that. Um, just the steps along the way uh from teachers, from counselors, from uh advisors, a lot of people basically just saying, you can't make it, you can't do it, you're poor, you're you know, you're a linthead son, uh, you're going to go to work in the meals just like your parents. And then I didn't take that for an answer. And then, like I said, through a a lot of prayer and a lot of dependence on God, I was able to make it and I made it out. And uh hopefully, you know, that I've I I hope that I've been more of a positive influence than a negative influence on the world. That's you know, it's all we can hope for. It's that we have spread the love of God, that we have told people about Jesus, and that we've tried to help people out along the way.
SPEAKER_01You just opened my eyes to see the significance of your parents pray uh with their voice because imagine closed Yeah, I know we we can close our doors and talk to God, but when it is with the family, it's it's quite different. I think that made an impact on you, knowing your dad was praying for the family like that. And I like that type of prayer. He saw himself that God could use him. Yeah, thank you so much. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00When my parents were gospel singers, and we would travel from church to church uh all my life, and I would I would get to visit a lot of different churches, and I still talk about this, but people used to pray in churches out loud, but everyone at the same time out loud. So there may be a hundred men and women on their knees in church praying out loud to God, and you would hear we called it a heavenly hum because you would hear all these people expressing their thoughts to God, and uh it's it's so powerful. And I I think we've we've missed that in life today and in children knowing that they can speak to the creator of the universe and that we can also hear from him as well.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and you have written, you and I get your testimony that nobody is beyond the reach of the grace of Jesus Christ, and yes, but also uh you have not only been imparted by your father, you've also connected with God personally with Jesus Christ. You found value in reading the scriptures. Uh maybe I would ask you how the reading of the scriptures strengthened your spiritual growth.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I love that question. First of all, I want to say this. I d uh if you are a serious Christian, not only should you be a consumer, but you should be of God's word, but you should also be a teacher of God's word if you have that capability. And um, I was uh one of the things I did in my life, I've been a Sunday, what we call Sunday school teacher or a Bible teacher for a large part of my life. And uh and so I I I found out, and I know this because of my teaching background, that the best person who knows the subject is the teacher, not the student. The teacher knows the word better than the student. And so um I set out to teach the word of God, not just read it and uh to try to understand it. And I have um I had an uncle who passed away just last week. He was 98 almost 99 years old. He had read the New Testament, they told it his funeral. They said he had read the New Testament through 90 times. Now I think that's powerful, but the other part of it is I would rather someone read it through with meaning and purpose and one time and try to understand it. And you know, it's it's that important. But for me, um I I am marveled by the concept that we have the word of God, and the word of God, the creator of the universe, is sitting here on my desk. I have it on my phone, I have it everywhere. Uh, I have memory verses right here, memory verses for like one a week, memory verses. And I have these things, and it's so special that I have the word of God, the word of the creator of the universe who's speaking to me, and I have it. And there are so many people who neglect picking that up and reading that or learning about that or knowing about that. And I will tell you something there. You can find no fault in the word of God. You can find no uh nothing wrong with that, and it's only good advice. Even if you did not, I I tell a lot of my atheist friends that I've spoken to over the years, even if you didn't accept Christ, living a Christian life is still good for you. It's a good, it's a good life. But accepting Christ is such a joy. But for me, uh reading and studying the Word of God is uh is just powerful, just uh looking at it, realizing what it is. And don't you love uh like when you read the gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and when you read it and you see uh like here in the USA, we have the red text where where Jesus' words are in red, and we know that's his words. And you know, it's it just creates such a marvel to me. Um the written word of God is so special to me. Uh and I think about that a lot of times. If I had nothing else in this world, what would I want? And I I would want the word of God.
SPEAKER_01Thank you very much. Of course, what you've said resonates with overcoming shame through Christ, of course. Uh you have had that experience, uh, but also you've also had an experience of generational brokenness. Oh yes, uh faith uh during hardship. How has faith, or maybe how have you seen Jesus Christ helped you walk a successful journey through all that?
SPEAKER_00Okay, uh you know, people have a choice to make in their life. Um I and always say it's a very simple choice. You either choose Jesus or you don't choose him. You either say yes or you say no. I had a lot of family who said no. Uh a lot of my cousins. Um, most of my aunt and uncles were what I would consider Christians, most were, uh, but not all. And you as a child, as a youth, I would s look at these the decisions they made, and I would go, that that was a bad choice on their part. You know, how why did they do this? And you know, it's it's kind of like watching a movie sometime, and you either pull for the bad guy or the good guy, you know, kind of like in a Superman movie. You're either pulling for Superman or Lex Luth Luther or whatever his name is. And it's like, you know, I for me, I looked at this and I saw the bad people around my life, the people who were doing the wrong things. And I'm thinking, their life is really bad. Their life is going to be bad. And like I said, two of my cousins are, you know, in prison for the rest of their life. One's been in prison since the early 1980s. Think about that. You know, a man, and I'm not talking about a distant cousin, but I'm talking about people that I grew up with, went to church with, went to school with, they were personal friends. I would visit their homes. And, you know, as a child, you would play with these children, and they they made a different choice. And so for me, um, I would see their choices, but now the other part. A lot of people talk about uh that some people only want God in their lives when they're hurting. Um, I I tell you what, it's really important to know that God is with you on the mountaintop and God is with you in the valley, God is with you every day. And every day when you wake up, whatever your condition may be, you need to thank God for being your God. And uh, regardless of where you are, God uses hardship sometimes to strengthen us and um to make us better people. And and I I'll say, you know, I I've had some hard times in my life. You know, for me to get to go to college was just what, you know, people were like, what are you talking about? How how can you go to college? Your parents are, you know, they're just this. They, your father quit school in eighth grade, your mama quits school in eleventh grade. Nobody in your family has an education, no one's ever been to college. How are you going to make it? You know, you have nothing, you have nothing. But you know what? I had God on my side, so I had everything. And uh, you know, regardless of maybe when I maybe walked away from God or turned my my face to him, God was always there. He was always there waiting for me. And he, you know, God knows he gave me a choice, but he also knew that uh he held me in the palm of his hand and that uh that hopefully that I would make the right choice. My my son uh is a pastor and he preached a message yesterday about that, about fathers disciplining their children. And he said, you know, God disciplines us and it makes us better. You know, it our life is not always going to be easy. And um my life was not easy. You know, there were there were times that we were hungry, there were times that we didn't have. Um, you know, I I tell people when I went to college, uh I went to college in uh homemade clothes that my mama had stitched together out of cloth. I didn't have a suitcase, I had a bag that she had stitched together out of old blue jean material, and I stuffed my pillow and my sheet and my blanket and my extra pair of clothes in there. And there were, you know, uh in my life, we would have maybe one pair of shoes a year. Um, and so, you know, I I I know there were people who were worse than me that had it worse than me. But uh I I will say this, I never thought I was poor. Always thought I had everything I needed. And I thought, God, God has provided for us today. I have butter beans to eat today. Thank you, God, I have that. You know, there were days we didn't have anything to drink but water. And you know what? I would thank you, God, I have water. Uh and when I was in college, a lot of times my wife and I talk about this, that um I would eat fish that I had caught out of the out of the river, but that was the food that God provided for me. And so although times may have been hard, uh I I knew I knew that God had me. He had me where he wanted me and he would take care of me. Uh, there are other not just material things, uh, hardships in my life. Uh, I had a I have a son who, for many years of his life, uh went astray and became a drug addict, claimed to be an atheist and all this, and uh it's terrible for a parent, you know, because you think he was raised in the church, he did all these things. And he, how did he turn out this way? Well, once again, people have a choice, but he also turned his, God turned his life around. He became a Christian, and now he's a successful pastor. And so um, you know, I I'll reiterate that message again. It's like where you are today should not dictate where you are a year from now, tomorrow, a month, or 10 years from now, you know, with God's help, you can get you can reach the goal that you're striving to get to. And I'm not I'm not preaching prosperity, I'm just saying God will help you.
SPEAKER_01Thank you very much, of course. That's a great testimony. And uh yes, uh suffering actually might have helped you also. Uh yes, in your faith, uh and also in your humility, in your progressive transformation, because you said that uh in your writing you said that transformation is not a one-day event, it's gradual. Yes. Uh, but as we cross, uh because of time, uh, would you like to tell us a little about how all that experience has influenced your seventh leadership?
SPEAKER_00Um You know, I look back, can you, and I'll I'll ask you, Emmanuel. Um, and I'm just thinking about this. Who were the people that were inspirational in your life that helped you get over things? Well, for me, it was my grandfather's, my father, my mother, my grandmothers, aunts and uncles, but I had teachers along the way also who inspired me, uh, who pointed me, you know, in the right direction. They were saying, Don't let people hold you down. And I would say this to all your listeners, it's it's the same thing is to surround yourself. Um, if you want success in your life, the first thing to do is seek God. God is the the first thing. Second is surround yourself with uh good family or friends. Now, a lot of people don't have a good family, and I understand that. Uh, but find you good friends, find good friends, and I'll say this the friends, the people you hang out with, they will either raise you up or they'll take you down. And so you choose those people that you know that are going to help you, that will make you a better person in this life. Uh that's something you need to do, choosing your friends. Uh, and then third is the education. And I know a lot of places in the world it's difficult, but uh the internet is a is a special tool. But you still have to be discerning. But you know, you can go out and listen to podcasts like this, uh, read books, read the Bible, do those things. Education is that third thing. Seek God, surround yourself with good people, um, and then study. And and learn everything you can about this world. Uh, and learn it in a in a way that would uplift God and that realize that He's the author of everything.
SPEAKER_01Elsa, what great wisdom. Thank you so much. Uh, you're always welcome to the Ministry of Reconciliation podcast. It's been a great pleasure having you.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much for the opportunity.
SPEAKER_01You're always welcome.