True Forgiveness

In this episode we have a very special visit from Pastor Mickey Eckles from Trinity Church to speak on forgiveness and share some insights on what its like and means to be men of God that need forgiveness.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Alrighty guys, welcome to our sixth episode of the New Life Men's podcast. Today our topic will be forgiveness. My name is Victor, and I have Pete Gonzalez over the men's group for MNV. And along with us, we have a special guest, Pastor from Trinity.

SPEAKER_02 0:17

My name is Mickey Eccles, Trinity Church. I'm the executive pastor of ministries here at Trinity. Yes, sir. If you would like to start us off in a prayer, great before we begin. Lord, we love you. Thank you for the men who are listening today, God. And we thank you, God, for the opportunity just to grow. Lord, we're being challenged, we're being shaped. And as we dive into this topic of forgiveness, Lord, I thank you that you will help us, God, to navigate relationships, challenges, Lord, hurts in our lives. So meet with us today. Lord, open up our hearts. Lord, may men be changed in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

All right. So I wanted to get this started.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

If Peter, you want to go ahead and have a breakdown why we So here's the deal. Like, like when we started the podcast, it was kind of for men, right? Men who really have issues, or not issues, but are kind of nervous about entering a church, right? Like, like let's say, because like nowadays churches sometimes are kind of put in that in that realm, like they're gonna be judgmental, or man, uh, I don't know if I have the wardrobe to go in there, or I don't know how they're gonna react to me, you know. Of course, we know that's the enemy trying to stop anybody from entering a church, correct? So we did the podcast, so it kind of like when the men are listening, they're like, hey, well, it's just, you know, they're just like us, right? They're there, that that was the whole reason for the podcast, you know. So to reach that man that's kind of like at the threshold, like, I want to come to church, but I'm afraid that I'm gonna be judged, you know. So, and it seems like we're we're we're we're gaining traction with it, you know. So, you know, so that was kind of the whole reason for the podcast, you know, and asking different pastors different different things that we feel like they see going on in the you know with with people, right? Because at the end of the day, we're trying to reach people, souls, right? Great, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:08

Okay, so what I wanted to start off with is I want to ask you about Trinity. I want to ask you about, you know, your time here, how long you've been going, and then what's your foundation? So they're at new life. Our foundations are living, walking, and building, living a new life in Christ, walking in faith, and building God's God's kingdom. So I want to ask you, what does Trinity stand on and you know what do you believe? Sure.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

I got saved here at 17 years old as a high school student. I was invited by a friend to go on a ski trip with Trinity Church, the youth group, and I was not really interested in the church part, but the girl was cute enough that was going on the ski trip. And that's where I met Jesus, and I've been involved really with Trinity, you know. So I came back and was discipled by the youth pastor, and then 20 years old was on full-time staff with high school ministry here. So I've been in full-time ministry now for 34 years, with about half of that here at Trinity.

SPEAKER_03 3:09

Amen.

SPEAKER_02 3:10

So at Trinity, right? You know, I we have some fresh kind of vision, if you will, and we talk about that everyone has a next step. And so we talk about grow, gather, give, and go. So we all want to grow in grace. We want to gather in community relationships, we want to give generously of our time, of our gifting resources, and then ultimately we want to go make disciples.

SPEAKER_03 3:37

Amen.

SPEAKER_02 3:38

And so we're staying plenty busy trying to figure that out.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Amen. That is I do want to touch one topic real quick. So I read the book you had uh released, and I just wanted to bring up one story that caught my attention. Was whenever you were at the meeting and they had put gifts on everybody's table, you walked out, came back in, and it was a pair of knee pads. Yeah. Now that's one thing that really did touch me, but I want you to.

SPEAKER_02 4:01

Sure, yeah. So I wrote a book. I never wanted to write a book, but I did write a book when the Lord said write a book. And I had these ten principles, and it is for men. And so the guy, your audience of just men trying to figure it out. The book's called Not Your Average Guy, and it really is written for the guy that you guys are speaking to every week. Like, how do I get started? And uh, so that particular story that you're referencing, we were all sitting around and talking about our time in God's Word. This is all church staff now. So, how's your time in God's Word? And how's your prayer life? And my story was pretty typical. I would say, yeah, my time in the word is great. My prayer life is really not great. I need, and I would rather just read a book on prayer.

SPEAKER_03 4:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:46

And so I went to lunch, came back, there was a little gift bag on my desk, tissue paper, and I was like, I my first thought literally was somebody bought me a book on prayer, and I was actually pretty excited about that. Yeah. I was like, Yeah, I'll read about it. Somebody's like gonna help me read on this. And I pulled that thing out, and it was just a pair of knee pads. I think they're sitting over there on a bottom shelf in this office that we're in right now. But it's just always a reminder. I didn't need another book on prayer. Yeah, I needed to pray. Yeah. But it took me probably another 20, 25 years to figure that out. Yeah. So the the lesson was insightful, but it took me uh a number of years later to become a man of prayer. But I'm forever grateful for that moment. And yeah, it spoke volumes to me. Just need to try some of these things, right? And so that's what I appreciate about y'all's podcast. It's an opportunity to let's just take, let's, let's try some stuff, let's play with it, let's explore it. Yeah, it sounds like you guys are doing a great job of providing a safe space for men to navigate these things.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

So and of course, I mean that that's that's a good, you know, like the story, right? Because prayer, that's like the biggest thing for your relationship, right? Like, I hear a lot of other, I guess you can say, like evangelists or preachers, right? And they speak on that, like, okay, we can study the word, that's that is, you know, relationship, but the real relationship is prayer, is when you're in that, you know, in your closet, your your secret space, right? And and instead of us telling God, we're just sitting there listening, right? Because a lot of us are just uh I love what uh our our pastor's daughter came up for Father's Day and she kind of had a beautiful story. She the way she painted it is like a lot of us were just like, all right, God, I need this, and then we leave. All right, God, I need this, and then we leave. All right, God, we need this, and then we leave, and we never stay to listen to him, right? And and I I just thought it was it was it was beautiful the way she put it, right? Because not that I've been struggling with prayer, but I feel like I haven't been praying correctly. I I was blessed with like actually one of your members, he's a really good friend of mine, and and he goes to our our uh men's groups sometimes, uh Joe Flores, and uh he gifted me a book, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and and man's awesome book, right? Uh Cause of Discipleship. And I love the way he talks about prayer, right? And he's just like, you know, basically what she was telling us was like we we're just coming with like uh requests instead of just sitting there and listening to him, right? Because we we, you know, he the way the book explains is like God already knows what you need, God already knows what you lack, right? He just wants that time right now, just to you you sit there and and and listen to him, right? And and that's how I was at one time, right? Just God, I need, I need, I need. Hey, God, check this out, check this out, this is going on, man. I I really need your help here, need your help here. But I never stopped to to listen to what he had to tell me, right? And so yeah, man, prayer is real, real, um yeah, it's real important.

SPEAKER_02 8:04

As men, we're not great listeners. No.

SPEAKER_00 8:07

No.

SPEAKER_02 8:07

Yeah. So if we don't listen to each other well, we don't listen to our wives well, how are we gonna listen to an abstract God? Yeah. So that's 100% true. Yeah. But I think maybe we make it too hard sometimes. Yeah. Probably a lot of these things about how to walk with God, we mystify it with religious language and we don't understand it. Maybe it's simpler. Yeah. Even this topic today of forgiveness, maybe it's simpler.

SPEAKER_00 8:36

That is true.

SPEAKER_02 8:37

And it meets the eye.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

Yeah. Alright, so we can go ahead and jump into this topic because I know we can go. Let the Holy Spirit speak. So I want to start this off with the verse, Ephesians 4.32. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other as Christ forgave you. And to me, that's that to me that spoke volumes because to ask for forgiveness, to me, you have to ask, you have to be forgiven first. I'm not gonna be mad at you and then be, I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not gonna ask you to forgive me for hurting you if I you've hurt me because I'm already upset with you. And I think, you know, we all have to start as asking God for forgiveness for anything that we've done wrong. That we've, you know, any sins or any trials or anything that when we turned away from him, and I I that first really stuck with me because you had to start with God first before you can, oh man, I want this guy to forgive me. I'm mad at him because he has, you know, or I need to forgive this guy, but I'm too hurt to forgive him, but I have yet to go to Christ about it. And I think that really, you know, is something strong to me. I do want to start with the question. If someone right now is listening who is trapped with unforgiveness or resentment, what is the first step that you believe they can take, Pastor Mickey?

SPEAKER_02 9:54

Yeah, great question. You know, obviously, if we're number one, are they a believer? Amen.

unknown 10:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:01

Because what you just said, like if they're not a believer, they're probably gonna do whatever comes natural, and that's gonna be protect themselves. That is true. But if they're a believer, then yeah, what you just described in that Ephesians verse is great. We we have to think about, all right, Lord, what do I do with this? So we have to go back to prayer. Lord, this offended me, this hurt me. How do I navigate this? And you know, in its most in its most practical form, you know, can a conversation happen? Amen. Is the hurt? I mean, can you talk to this person? Are you willing to talk to this person? Is that person willing to talk to you? How do you posture your heart to be able to have a healthy conversation? And so I think first steps I would probably ask the Lord to help me figure out what I'm feeling. I'd ask the Lord to give me some perspective on the situation. I would hopefully do a little bit of reflection of all right, what is there any ownership in this thing with me? Did I have anything? No, what I really want to do is just go tell that person they're wrong and focus it on that. But again, you know, we're talking layers of relationships. So if this is a small relational matter, man, go address the issue. You know, there's a little simple model called SBI, the situation, the behavior, and its impact. If you will, it's a simple model for navigating conflict or tension, maybe in the workplace, it could work in the home, whatever. But all right, what was the situation that offended me or hurt me? I want to describe that behavior, not chase everything else. When you said this, it upset me. It caused me to feel this. Yeah. And so we that way we maybe can stick to the issue. That's true. Think about when we get hurt, right? If I you know, see guys with a sh ro rotator cuff surgery, they got this big old pad on their arm, uh arm sticking out, and they've got an injury, they're healing up from a pretty uh significantly painful surgery. Nobody's getting close to that guy. Yeah, period. Why? Because he hurts.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

That's true.

SPEAKER_02 12:33

He's not, no one's getting close to him. Yeah. Because if you touch him, it's gonna hurt worse. Yeah. So we take that analogy into relationships. When we're hurt, we avoid, especially the person that's hurt us. And so how do we navigate that? You know, there's layers probably to that. But ultimately, we do there is a responsibility for us to forgive. And so we can dive into maybe in a moment the difference in reconciliation and forgiveness. But biblically, I don't see that we have an option other than to forgive people.

SPEAKER_03 13:11

Amen.

SPEAKER_02 13:12

And so we can probably try to dance and skirt around that all we want to. I just don't think we can do it biblically. Yeah. Now, what some people do though is assume that forgiveness means that we've now got to be best friends again. Or you've hurt me, and maybe maybe it's like trauma, trauma level hurt. And of course that person doesn't want to be anywhere near the perpetrator or whoever hurt them, hurt them, abuse them, whatever it may be. And so you again you gotta think scales. Can I forgive somebody and yet still keep some distance? Probably so, based on circumstances, etc.

SPEAKER_03 13:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:00

So these are these are layers, right? There's brilliant people with high-level degrees that could probably sit here and go, y'all don't even know what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_03 14:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:08

I was just saying there's a difference in forgiving and reconciling and being best friends and hanging out all the time together. That is true. And so maybe trying to separate some of that and understand some of that could be you know really, really valuable.

SPEAKER_01 14:26

Steph. You know, Mickey, speaking on that, it reminded me of of I heard this a few years back. It says, do you like like that, right? When you forgive somebody who hurt you like trauma, trauma-wise, or maybe even not even trauma, maybe just hurt you now, you're just like, hey, look, I forgive them, but I don't want to be around them, right? He goes, you know, the true test, if if you just really did forgive them, right? Is if something then in return bad happens to them. And they're like, how was your reaction to that? Was your reaction like, man, that's what he gets? He deserves that. Or was your heart like Christ's posture and like, man, you know, I really know he really wasn't saved, man. Like, I hope he makes it because I don't want him to be lost, right? Because hell is eternal torment, right? So it was like, what is your heart posture at that time? Was it good? That's what he gets, because he hurt me. Or was it like, man, hey, man, I'm I feel for the guy, I feel for his family, right? Like, what is your heart posture? Because, like you said, we can free in my heart, that's just me. I feel like there is, because there is people in my personal life that hurt me. I forgave them, but I don't, I don't, I don't want to have nothing to do with them no more, right? But my heart is forgive forgiving them, right? So then if something down the line happens, like I don't want to rejoice in my heart, right? I want to like, hey man, I mean, I pray that he was, he got saved. I pray that he came to the cross, right? I feel like that that's legitimate. But then again, that's feeling, right? That that's just kind of but I heard that years back and I was like, man, it was a good way to roll it out, right? Like, I like you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:08

You know, yeah, I mean, Jesus models it, he's hanging on the cross, father forgive them. Yeah. For they don't know what they're doing. Like, how do you do that when the people that have just tortured you and are in the process of killing you? That is true. Like, that's a different level of forgiveness. Yeah, it is. And it kind of reminds me back of like in Ephesians 5, we'll never forgive people like that in the flesh. Yeah, the flesh will never do that. It's back to the idea of protecting ourselves, but walking in the spirit, we can supernaturally tap into, I think, what Christ modeled. Forgiving our, you know, loving our enemies. How are we supposed to love our enemies? Why would we love our enemies? And uh so yeah, these are very challenging concepts culturally. I think it's easier to go build an alliance of people who agree with us and will take our side so that we feel better about ourselves. But if I'm reading through scripture, I don't know, I find it hard to how am I going to how do I not forgive somebody, I guess. On what basis am I gonna justify that? So, yeah, that you know, if we're gonna line ourselves up with the word, we don't have a lot of places to run, yeah, other than to forgive. Somehow to let go. I was thinking, I was looking at some of these definitions of the word forgiveness. One one root word. I mean to pardon, to forgive guilt or sin, to remove the offense from consideration. You know, God extends that to us, obviously. Another word for forgiveness means to lift, carry, or take away, to remove the sin or to carry off an offense. Like it's gone. So if I'm gonna forgive you back to what you were saying, Peter, if I'm gonna forgive that person and then I'm not going to rejoice, that got that got carried away. That that hurt got carried away. Yeah, it's gone. Yeah, somewhere there. And so that's you know, that's helpful when we kind of think about some of those what those meanings or those ways.

SPEAKER_01 18:43

Because it's heart posture, right? Like if you go, like you said, we take it back biblically, God sees the the the intent and the thoughts of your heart, right? So it's not so much physical, right? Like, you know, because we can play the part like, you know, let's just say, okay, there was an offense, and you okay, I forgive, and in the flesh you're playing the part, right? Like, like, like the Pharisee, right? Like, oh man, yeah, we're friends, we're friends, I forgive you. But in my heart, if something happens, that's what you get. But my physical is saying, Yeah, we're friends, I forgive them. I I that's that's why I feel like God tells us, we take it back biblically, it's heart posture, right? He you can't tell what my heart's saying, but he can. Yeah, it is true.

SPEAKER_02 19:25

I mean, Jesus forgave us. He reconciled, and that when he forgave us, he reconciled us to himself. Yeah. So there's one element of forgiveness that reconciles us to people.

SPEAKER_00 19:41

That is true. I would like to add the the story of Judas. I believe it was our Pastor Kerry that spoke on it. It was, would you wash the feet of your Judas, of the person who hurt you, who betrayed you? And to me, thinking about it, it's like, would you be able to, you know, if that person ever really needed help, as you know, Peter was saying, it's in your heart that, you know, you forgave them. If you truly forgave them, you'd be able to go and if they needed their feet washed, as to say, you know, you'd go wash their feet or you know, help them up. And I understand, you know, you've been hurt, you've been, you know, done wrong, even in the traumatic way, because I mean this is something that I believe only my wife knows of. But I was sexually harmed as a child. And hearing that, I, you know, at first I was like, I forgive them. I, you know, I can go around them, I forgive them. But I didn't know that my heart truly wasn't at forgiveness until I heard Pastor Kerry speak on, would you wash the feet of Judas? And I was like, when he first said it, I was like, Oh yeah, my dad left me and I washed his feet, like that's no problem. But then my wife looks at me and she's like, now let's come on, we know who you're thinking of. And I was like, oh man.

SPEAKER_03 20:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

Now could I go back and you know wash his feet? And I thought about it and I, you know, prayed on it and I just like, you know, truly meditated on it. And I was like, you know what? I think if it came down to it, I could wash his feet. Because if I want to go closer to God, I have to learn to forgive as he forgave us, as he forgives me till this day of anything that I do wrong, any of my sins. So I do believe it is truly within your heart. You know, you have to forgive with the true intention of heart. And that that is one thing. And it is a hard thing to do. And I do believe it, you know, you have to be with Christ to do it. You have to walk in your Bible, you have to pray, you have to, you know, truly be on fire for God to, you know, forgive within your heart. Because I've I I believe it is true, the flesh will not truly forgive with all intention. Yeah, it will not.

SPEAKER_02 21:44

And yeah, that I that is one thing that you know, there's great freedom in forgiveness. Yes. Like, think about a person who and let me I want to use a a a an affair in a marriage. As an analogy. So we have one of the there's a the betrayed spouse and the the spouse who was unfaithful, the unfaithful spouse. So if a couple chooses to try to work through reconciliation in an affair recovery process, the unfaithful spouse, they have a moment with God. Once they finally do have a moment with God, first of all, they lie for a long time. They've become prolific liars. It's the only way you pull it off. But once they truly hit brokenness and they they are broken before the Lord and repentant, they they feel like a million bucks because they've experienced the grace of God. And so they're ready to get back together, and they can't understand why the betrayed spouse isn't ready to just be better. Let's get back together, yeah. Because they've had such this overwhelming, they've experienced the unconditional grace and the love of God through true repentance, which is a beautiful thing. But that betrayed spouse, it's it's just a much longer, much more difficult process.

SPEAKER_03 23:26

That is true.

SPEAKER_02 23:26

Because they were the ones that were hurt, right? Yeah, in essence, you know, it's it's a it's a brutal analogy because if you look at some of what the experts say, you know, some of our psychological relational experts on how do you recover from something like an affair, in its simplest form, in its simplest form, the betrayed spouse basically takes it on the chin. What are their options? Yeah, sure. Forgive. How do they vindicate?

SPEAKER_03 23:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:58

How do they how do they ever begin to trust again? Those are processes, but basically, as wrong as it feels, they choose to forgive. And again, the flesh is wanting to go, no, you're gonna pay for this. Yeah. Yeah. For the next 10 years or 20 years, or for the rest of our lives, or however long, there's like this penance process of I'm gonna hold this over them, I'm gonna bring it up. But in a true recovery process, you know, I tell the betrayed spouse right up front, this is gonna be brutal. And at the end of the day, you're gonna basically just eat this. Yeah. And you're gonna have to just choose to forgive, and it's gonna feel wrong because you've been wronged.

SPEAKER_03 24:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:51

But in the process, so if you walk through the process up to a point, that betrayed spouse can ask any question. Assuming that the unfaithful spouse who has now repented is honest, they be as transparent as they can, but there becomes a point in the recovery process where even the betrayed spouse does not bring the past up anymore. That is true, and they have to agree on that. Yep. So that's where some professional assistance is great. What is that point? How long have we covered everything we need to talk about? But there does become a point in the relationship that we will never talk about the past again.

SPEAKER_03 25:34

Yep, that is true.

SPEAKER_02 25:36

Now we're simply moving forward. And if that couple can spend time together, and one of the most magical ways, I say magical, not really in a magical, spooky way, one of the most beautiful, crazy, simple ways that that reconciliation happens is spending crazy amounts of time together. Oh, yeah. That is true. Yeah. I'm talking crazy amounts of time.

SPEAKER_01 26:05

Almost too. You're probably sick of each other, right? You're like, hey man, we need a little.

SPEAKER_02 26:09

So the unfaithful spouse is loving it. Yeah. Because they're yeah, they just they want to make it right. Yeah. But think about how hard it is for the betrayed spouse. That is true.

unknown 26:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:23

I can't, I don't want to be around you, and you have betrayed me at the highest levels, and I'm supposed to spend hours and hours a week with you. That is the grace of God. But ultimately, that is how they began to reconcile and heal and move forward. Now that's in the context of a marriage. Yep. You shared an abuse situation. Again, for people dealing with abuse on this, please, I you know, we're we're amateurs in the grand scheme of this. And so people who are dealing with true sexual abuse, trauma, etc., really need to seek professional, faith-based professional help.

SPEAKER_03 27:07

That is true.

SPEAKER_02 27:08

Because there are some things there that need to be dealt with. At the end of the day, we're gonna land at the same place. Yeah, yep. Yep, that is true. We have to forgive.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

And Mickey, how about and that that's all that's awesome? That's it's it's really good. How about like the big one? I don't know if you guys hear that a lot here. I I would think maybe that's just perception because it's a big church. I know y'all got a big congregation, right? Because we we kind of I feel like that happened, this happens at our church, right? The church hurt, right? Maybe you offended somebody by accident, not even knowing, because you guys got a big congregation. There's only so many of y'all for the whole you know, flock of people, right? And and you get this some sometimes the people that get the church hurt, like, oh well, they're not giving me attention or whatever, right? Because you know, we like you said, the flesh, right? The flesh gets the best of you, it's full of emotion, and and we know the enemies in the other ear, like, hey see, look, they didn't talk to you, he don't love you, they don't like you, you know.

SPEAKER_02 28:09

A simple analogy. Let's say that we left this recording and we went to Outback to grab dinner.

SPEAKER_03 28:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:20

And there's somebody in the church, and they see us, but we don't see them. Yeah. So they're over there waving. We didn't see them. Yeah. That's church hurt. Yes, church hurt. So now around the table they're going, that Pastor Mickey. Yeah. He acts all nice on the stage, but he's a jerk. He doesn't say hi, he didn't even look over here and say hi. I knew it. I knew it. I knew it was too good to be true. Yeah. You know, that it's that happens. That's real stuff. Yeah, that is true. And much deeper kinds of church hurt. So that's a great question. I love it. I love the topic. In fact, I would say this is gonna sound selfish, but let me let me refer you to two resources on this at a much deeper level. Number one, there's a great book called Church Hurt by a guy named Stephen Mansfield, New York Times bestselling author. And it's a really great book, practical tool for people dealing with church hurt. Yeah. I preached a message on Church Hurt here at Trinity, and you could Google just Church Hurt Trinity Church, it'll pop up. But it'll point to some resources uh along these lines. But again, it's it's back, it's all the same, it's all the same principle. I okay, so somebody hurt me in some way, somebody said something offensive to me, somebody didn't call when we were going through a hard time, somebody said something hurtful to me. These things happen regularly. We are an imperfect people, that's right, and I think some of it is expectations. We expect certain things out of somebody, and when they don't meet our expectations, now we've got hurt. That is true. And a lot of other, you know, there are examples of someone who clearly did something wrong. Yeah, they they spoke in a harsh tone. I I've some of my greatest conflicts have been with church members over some of the craziest things. I'll give you one example. Here at Trinity Church, ironically, this is back in the 90s. The cell phones were relatively new. We had this young doctor in the Sunday school class, and his phone rang. No worries. Yeah. However, he sits and talks on the phone at normal tone of voice and just takes this call while we're all trying to facilitate a discussion with probably 20 couples. Wow. It like it didn't make sense to me then, it doesn't make sense to me now. So I after the class, I stepped out and I pulled that guy off to the side and I just said, Hey, man, in the future, it'd be great if you could maybe just step out in the hallway.

SPEAKER_03 31:22

Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_02 31:23

And common sense though, right? I mean, super common sense. They were really offended, he was really offended, and I wound up going to their house that night to kind of talk through it. And I it would be in my top three easy of worst the things they said to me, called me in play face to face. Over asking this person to maybe step in the hallway in the future. Yes. We understood that he's a doctor, right? There maybe they mean he needs something. He has to go take care of some things. Yes, go take care of it. Just step outside. Little, it's a little thing, a simple little, what seems like a little thing, but it blew up beyond belief. And we when we are hurt when we're walking in the flesh, when we're just being people, we will just things trigger us and set us off. And we will say certain things, we will do certain things. And words are powerful. Anyway, yeah, church hurt is very, very real. And I guess here's how I would encourage somebody navigating church hurt. Are you going to let church hurt? Which typically means somebody has offended you in the church, right? Let's keep it simple. A person in the church has offended you. Are we going to allow that people-to-people conflict to separate us from experiencing all the beauties and the values of being part of the church?

SPEAKER_03 33:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:12

Like think churches, don't think church is a building. Think the body of Christ. Think the church that Jesus laid his life down for. Think the church who he's coming back for.

SPEAKER_03 33:26

That's true.

SPEAKER_02 33:27

That's the church. If Jesus loved the church and laid his life down for the church, I'm going to love the church. Yeah. With all the bad, with all the good, with all the funky, with all the weirdness, with all the little hurts and the little things that don't go like we want them to. Yeah. And it's a two-way street. We talk, you know, this is gonna sound terrible, but we talk a lot about church hurt. It's always the attendees that get hurt. You know, it's a it's a funny conversation, but you know, I'm not not one person has ever said, let's talk about the hurt church staff experience. That's true. That's a big one. Yeah, it's a big one. Nobody wants to have that conversation, and there's no reason to have it here today. Other than is it possible, has anyone with church hurt ever considered how they might have hurt someone else in the church? Yeah, that is true. Yep. Yep. So we we just we need to, you know, the people who are having fun and enjoying life are the ones who are letting go of these things. That's right. That's right. We we forgive, we grant forgiveness, we may or may not reconcile relationally in the sense of hanging out together or fellowshipping or doing life together. There could be some variances in some of that, but we we have to, I mean, we have to forgive. That's right. And I can forgive even the greatest hurt. Why? Because he modeled it for us and laid down his life, and he showed us how to forgive people who he was innocent. There was no wrong found in him. He'd never once defended himself, he never once retaliated, he laid his life down.

SPEAKER_01 35:33

Amen.

SPEAKER_02 35:34

That's the only way I can forgive people who have really hurt me.

SPEAKER_01 35:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:39

And I have to realize I hurt people too. Oh, yeah. Amen. We all do.

SPEAKER_01 35:44

Yeah. I like two things that really stood out, what you just said, right? The first one was, you know, about the people who are free, right? That was, I think, was the last thing you said. The people who are really enjoying life and are free are the ones that forgive, right? I've heard this analogy one time that if you don't forgive, you put yourself in this prison, right? And all you're doing is watching that person or watching whoever hurts you, right? Oh, see, man, look, man, look at them, look at that. You're just in this prison and you're making yourself like miserable because you just can't let it go. You're consumed by it. You're consumed by it. All you can think about is that hurt. The vindication that's yeah. That is the other thing that I liked what you said was like that was like Jesus laid his life down for the church, right? So why would you not forgive so you can continue growing and continue enjoying it, right? Because like at our church, we like what our pastor likes to say is like, you get offended at Walmart, you get offended by somebody at the mall, you get offended by somebody at the grocery store, but you still go back to go spend money there, right? He goes, Why is it that as soon as you get hurt at church, first thing you want to do is leave. But yet you'll go spend your hard-earned money at the mall, at that restaurant, at Walmart.

SPEAKER_02 37:00

You'll go back to the restaurant that the server uh ticked you off the last time you were there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:05

Yes, that's a great analogy, a great point. And so those two things stood out. So in my heart, for the men who are listening, you know, and the enemy's trying to use that, right, to keep you out of the church. Just remember that, right? Like it's simple. Like you, you, you, you're still gonna go to these other places, you know. Why keep yourself away from the things of God in the church and what he did for the church if you know you're just robbing yourself. You know, that's really what you're doing.

SPEAKER_02 37:34

This is robbing yourself. I want to share a story real quick. I don't know how much more time we have, but I want to I want to share a story that reminds me of a story. My dad. My dad was a he was a he was a good provider. We weren't super close. Yeah, he didn't share anything about his childhood, but he finally, I would ask him all through high school, college, dad, hey, what's your story like? Who were you? Did you play in the band? Yeah. Were you athletic? And he wouldn't talk about his past. I'm talking, but like he would just flat out get angry and defiant and say, the past is the past. Don't ask me again. Wow. Like this man was hurt, but I didn't know why. Yeah. And nobody knew why. And so I'd ask him, and and to the point where I was scared of him, of like he was basically like, don't ever bring this up again. Wow. Well, he died at 55 due to some complications of diabetes. So but he was on dialysis, he called us all in, and he basically just said, I'm going off dialysis, like I'm done. He got radically saved, right, about three years before he passed away. Amen. It's another story, another day. But what happened was he called us in to say, I'm going off dialysis. So we only have a few days with him at that point. And he goes, Mickey's been bugging me for years about my story. And so I've hand-typed it with one little finger on a computer. And you can, he said, You can read it when I die. So I remember literally thinking this. We've waited this long. What's a few more days? Yeah. But for some reason, something changed, and he said, he told my mom, he said, Go get the letter. He told her where it was. She didn't know he wrote it. She had he has her read this letter to us. Wow. And it's his life story.

SPEAKER_03 39:33

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_02 39:34

And he starts in all the way back as a toddler. And he starts and he shares a story, like in first grade, I think, of being invited to a birthday party. He'd never been to a birthday party. Okay. Oh wow. And he was so excited. He gets to the birthday party, and the mom says, Oh, what are you doing here? And he says, I was invited to the birthday party. And this mom says to him, Oh, I'm sorry, that was a mistake. Wow. You can have a piece of cake and then you're gonna have to go home. Oh wow. Listen to this. This is a grown man at 55 years old writing about an incident in first grade. That's crazy. And that was the beginning of a life of hurt and rejection. Oh man. So he carried it with him, is what it was. His entire life. And you know he was the miserable one. Everybody else is living and enjoying life, but he's held on to these things. And this letter, five, six pages, was story after story of hurt and rejection and anger.

SPEAKER_01 40:47

Oh man. And it's tough, man.

SPEAKER_02 40:50

But he finally had a moment with God. In fact, in the letter, he tells us he was going to take his life. And he has this supernatural encounter that we don't have time for. He winds up at church instead of running his car into the interstate to take his life. Oh wow. And he winds up at our youth group here at Trinity. And that morning, a high school student is sharing her testimony and he recommits his life to Christ at the high school youth group. Amen. That's awesome, man. That's awesome. But then here's what he did. So we had his letter, but then he left about 70 letters. Men who are listening, this is very, very important. He typed about 70 letters. They were all about three sentences long, but written to specific people. Oh wow. And he asked us to make sure we got those to all of these people.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

Oh man.

SPEAKER_02 41:45

And in essence, these letters were all the same, but they said this. I'm sorry for. Will you please forgive me for the way I've treated you?

SPEAKER_01 42:00

Yeah, yeah. The people he hurt. Yes. Because of the hurt he was holding on to.

SPEAKER_02 42:04

And I hope that you come to know Jesus like I have. Amen. Amen. That's amazing. This was a bitter, bitter man. Yeah, broken, man. That held on to this forever. But then he experienced the grace of God. Yeah. And chose to seek forgiveness. That's awesome. At the tell end of his life. That's awesome. So we usually don't title funerals. But I had to title this when I did his funeral here. A man who finished well. Amen. He lived his life bitter and angry. But he finished it well. How? By surrendering to Christ and choosing to forgive those who hurt him and asking others to forgive him. There's a beautiful, beautiful story. Because like the prison door was of the most unlikely man, yes. But he lived his whole life in prison. And the reason he died at 55 was because food was the one thing he could control. Yeah. Everything else in his life he couldn't control. Yeah. And once he was diagnosed diabetic, no one was going to tell him what to eat. It was the only thing he could control. Comfort, right? Yeah. And so he chose to grossly abuse the disease. Wow. And you can do that. It often comes with an early exit. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why he wound up where he was. But by the grace of God, he died in a healthy place relationally. In fact, at his funeral at the at the graveside, one of his brother in law, one of my uncles. I don't know. The rift they had, but apparently there was something unbeknownst to me. But this uncle of mine comes to the service. I don't really know all this is going on. And as we shared my dad's story, that uncle wound up lingering at the graveside a little bit later after everything. And at that graveside, he laid down all of his offenses. Now he's free. Yeah. Yeah. But it takes a man, if we talk about manhood. We think manhood is I'm gonna go beat your face in. It's harder to forgive and move on. As they say, be the bigger man. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:50

It feels wimpy. But actually that takes more courage, man. It's alright. And to walk away from it. You know, it especially in this world right now, like the way everything is kind of upside down. It's that's the more courage part is hey, I'm gonna go. But once you've been forgiven, it's easier forgive.

SPEAKER_02 45:13

It makes sense to forgive. How we can extend forgiveness to other people. Very tough subject, very challenging subject. It preaches well. It's hard to live.

SPEAKER_01 45:26

It's hard to live, man. It's hard. Well that was awesome. We appreciate your time, Mickey. I mean, I know you're real busy. I know we kind of, for those listening, we we kind of had to reschedule a couple times, and you know, it's but it's always, you know, it's always a pleasure too when we finally get to sit down with somebody. And and we kind of know too when we had to reschedule with somebody, we're like, hey, you know, it's gonna be good because there's there's a reason why we can't connect right now, you know. But but we uh we appreciate your time and we know you're real busy. And we pray that everybody out there, all the men listening, they were blessed. You know, if you're holding on to anything, I pray that you hear those words, forgive. So you can you can be forgiven, but also so you can be let out of that prison, enjoy life, because life on this earth is short. And you don't want to be holding on to those, to those, to those things that are gonna just, you know, probably even take you to an earlier grave, you know, make it shorter. Make it shorter, man. Amen.

SPEAKER_00 46:22

I would like to thank you as well for your time. A couple of announcements I'd like to make and ask you if you had any. So this Monday, we're in June, correct? Yeah. June 29th, we have a community prayer. We would like to invite the Trinity Church. We have a community prayer, I believe this last one we had, but it's the last Monday of every month. So every Monday we do a prayer, but the last Monday of every month we do a community prayer, and we invite churches to come, and you just go and pray. There's not there's no service, it's just everyone praying at once. So we would like to extend the invitation to Trinity Church, invite y'all like to come. And I don't, I believe that's right now the only event we got going on is a community prayer. I'd like to ask you if Trinity has any upcoming events, anything. Yeah, we have a student conference coming up.

SPEAKER_02 47:09

July 26, 27. And this is for middle school, high school students. It's called Encounter. So it'll be a Sunday night, Monday night, and then it'll culminate on Wednesday night. But yeah, it's just a high action, you know, just strong gospel worship environment for students. And so if there's students, middle school, high school students in the area or listening or that would like to be a part of that, yeah. You could just go to trinitytoday.com and it's called encounter student conference, and we'd be happy to help you any way that we can. And so thank you guys. Appreciate what you're doing, and it's easy to talk about this stuff, and now we'll probably get some opportunities to go live it this week. Amen.

SPEAKER_00 47:51

That's for sure. Um, so I just wanted to add so that prayer night is at 6 p.m. And then we do have the vacational Bible school. Oh, yeah, be meaning. July 17th, I believe. I believe it's this 15th, 16th, and 17th. You can go to Minnesota's mobile via Facebook page and they'll have all the information there on that one. But I mean, that's all the announcements I have. Thank y'all.