Between Awareness and Reality: Mental Health Conversations Today

This conversation explores mental health beyond surface-level awareness.

We discuss how mental health is experienced differently in places like Kenya and the U.S., shaped by stigma, access, education, and social influences—not just a lack of knowledge.

As conversations grow, especially online, they don’t always reflect reality. In some spaces, support is limited. In others, mental health becomes a trend without deeper understanding.

We also examine how people are often reduced to labels instead of being seen as whole individuals.

In this episode: 

• Awareness vs. real understanding
• The impact of stigma and access
• Social media’s role in shaping the conversation
• Seeing people beyond diagnoses

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

There is work that needs to be done beyond knowing what you are going through. There's a lot of work that is required in understanding how to actually change the patterns of your life that are making your life difficult. And a part of that is also accepting that some a lot of life is uncertain. And that is the existential perspective of it. That a lot of life is uncertain, there are things you will never get answers to. And you have to look inwards to find out what are you willing to do with what kind of a life are you willing to create so that you do not continue suffering over things that you cannot control.

SPEAKER_06 0:31

So the issue I want to discuss today, because you know, we we have you, Jennifer, and uh if I'm not mistaken, you're a psychologist in Kenya primarily. Okay. And uh I was reviewing a lot of your YouTube videos, and uh the common theme I was seeing throughout the videos is something that I think we can all relate to, but specifically me being here in Nairobi, I can understand it a little bit more from I want to say an experiential level, and my wife is also from Kenya, so I think that gives me a little bit more clarity. Um and that's uh stigma, stigma mental health, stigma in in Africa, broadly speaking. You can say there's stigma everywhere, but I want to say that uh the beliefs here are a little bit more profound and uh less talked about because the the knowledge and the awareness of such a thing is either vilified or just it it's left for in an ignorance type of place. So uh would you agree with that?

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Yes, 100%. I would agree that Sigma is a big part of the conversation about mental health in our country and in our continent in general, because you need to understand the history with mental health in our country and in Africa. Um, in the past, when anybody was struggling with any mental illness or mental health issues, the first thing that everybody will assume is that that family is cast or that person is cast, there's an evil spirit, something has been done by their ancestors or their kinsmen who are not very happy to see their success or very happy to see them prosper, so now they are just getting back at them for that. So, witchcraft was seen as a major, as a major cause of mental illness. And so, if you came out and said, I am having difficulty with my mental health, then of course people would automatically assume that there's something wrong with you and your family, and they don't want to associate with you because you might pass it on to them, they don't want to get married to you or the from your family, because that family usually has mental health issues, and that is related to um spirituality, etc. etc. So, of course, when you come out with a mental illness or a mental health issue, people automatically assume that, and that's where the stigma comes in mostly. The people who were struggling sometimes were uh, and it's still something that happens. People are isolated a lot, so it's like um you might find that this person does not get to go outside if it's uh just a very debilitating kind of mental illness. They may not be allowed to go outside, they may be chained to the homestead because there's an assumption that if you have a mental illness, you're going to be violent. And if you are violent, you're going to be a menace to society. So there's a lot of things that come to that. And one of them is just the isolation and the different treatments. So one of the things that which I have seen is, of course, now the fact that people are speaking about mental health a little bit more in our country and in our continent. I am a psychologist, I've studied psychology from undergrad um all the way to this point, my master's in research. And there's a lot more people talking about mental health now than there was 10 years ago. And something specific about Nairobi is that there's one main mental health hospital. That's what I'm going to apply it. It's um Matari National Teaching and Referral Hospital. So that's the place where when you have any mental health-related issue, that's that's the first stop. So in Kenya, when you say that you were in Matari for anything, remember it's a hospital that has other services, not just mental health services. So the moment you say that you went to Matari, before you explain that you went for other things like dental care or an extra an or an x-ray or whatever other service, automatically people assume that you are a bad person. Yes, mwendawazimo.

SPEAKER_06 4:33

Mwenda wazimo.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

Exactly. So they assume you are mwendawazimo. Nobody wants to be called Mwendawazimo because if you are Mwendawazimo, then there's a lot of problems with you and your family. This is never just an individual issue. It is associated with you and your family. So nobody wants to say that they were in Masari hospital for whatever reason. Uh that now contributes to the stigma. That makes it difficult to speak out when we are struggling with mental health issues.

SPEAKER_06 4:56

What do you think? What would be a reason for speaking out? And what would you say? You know, why would they go over there? Like, what is the main issue you think you see or you do actually see to lead them to go to that uh mental institution?

SPEAKER_01 5:14

It's uh many things. It's a whole hospital that has a variety of services, starting with um rehab. It has a rehab that is very affordable than most private uh.

SPEAKER_06 5:23

Yeah, but I'm saying, like, what is the issue? Are you speaking of uh depression? Are you speaking of you know bipolar? Are you speaking of just broadly speaking, somebody who loses it?

SPEAKER_01 5:36

All of them, all of them. You go to Batari hospital for all manner of mental illnesses, that's the first place that you stop at. Depression, anxiety, uh schizophrenia, bipolar borderline personality disorder. Uh, anybody who seems to be um a menace to society, somebody seems to have lost it, the first thing that people say is take this person to Bathari. Because that's where the like the best the best uh psychiatrists are. That's where you go to practice. That's where I did my attachment when I was in my undergrad. That's the first place you think of when you think about mental health in Kenya.

SPEAKER_06 6:08

Okay. Well, I don't want I don't want to speak too much on his behalf, but I think uh Glenn got a lot to say about that.

SPEAKER_04 6:16

Yeah, and you know a good question for me to ask you, uh Jennifer, because here in the United States, we differentiate between mental health and mental illness. And they're very, you know, though they're related, but they have distinct concepts. You know, so is it the same way that you practice over there distinguishing the difference between mental health and mental illness? Uh and here in the States, mental health would refer to our emotional or psychological and social well-being, and that affects how we think, how we feel, and and act. Um, so it's it's kind of crucial in every stage of our lives, mental health is. Whereas here, we look at mental illness as it refers to diagnosed um disorders that hinders mental and uh emotional health. So it's important to kind of nurture mental health and seek help when encountering mental illness. Because one, like I deal with mental health predominantly, even though most of my clients may come with a diagnosis of mental illness, but it's mostly misdiagnosed in a lot of ways. You know, so if I deal with the mental health perspective and I see that as bringing um the solutions, then that person who may be been diagnosed, let's say, with um, you know, schizophrenia or bipolar calling those things, which are mental illnesses. And but when I screen them and they don't even have, you know, this the behavioral um foundation that is based on mental illness, uh, they're misdiagnosed most of the time and put on SSRIs, you know, psychotropic medication. So I normally would take them off of it and really deal with the cognitive dysfunctional foundation that they are dysfunctionally functioning with because of their belief system more so than anything else. And yes, trauma and experiential um situation, but it's not mental illness. So, how do you disdiate between the two or in Kenya?

SPEAKER_01 8:26

Um, I don't know if I can speak for everyone, but I know that if you stop the random person on the street, a random Kenyan on the street, and ask them the difference between those two concepts, I don't think they'll be able to give you a clear answer. Um, but what I have seen from the people in my circle is that we say that mental health is what you, it's like your physical health, it's all you're doing uh and it's on a spectrum. When you are really struggling and you are having this severe uh clinical diagnosis, then you are on the far end of the spectrum of mental health. So your mental health is suffering because you have a mental illness. But then your mental health could also be thriving because you're on this other end of the spectrum, and that does not mean that you don't have any challenges, you don't have any stressors, you don't have any distress of any sort. It just means that you're able to function on a day-to-day basis. So I wouldn't say that there's that clear distinction that this is a mental illness and this is not a mental illness. There's just mental health on a spectrum. And if you're really um on the end where we can clearly see the symptoms are matching up to a clinical diagnosis, then we say your mental health is struggling to the point where you have a mental illness. So that's how I look at it. But I don't know about the general population. I wouldn't be able to speak to that.

SPEAKER_04 9:41

Yeah. Because you and you know, what I do, I'm I'm more of a holistic psychotherapist, right? Clinician. Because a lot of the symptoms that here in the United States, they use the medical model to deal with mental health, which is name it, blame it, and tame it with psychotropic medication, which is you know, it's more like a pharmaceutical model because they are designing it for that purpose. But I'm looking at, you know, the lifestyle of people's behavior based on their belief systems and the you know, habit, hangups, hurts, traumas, life. But a lot of the times those historical foundations of of um of experiences causes them to behave in dysfunctional ways in relationships, but it's not really considered a disease. Because in this country here, mental illness is seen as a disease rather than a dysfunction, which is a sad commentary because disease is discovered in a cadaver, you know. But mental health is a creation of somebody's ideology of saying, okay, um this is the no we're gonna put major depressive disorder. But under that, there are so many variables of behavior that will define depression, right? And but there's reasons in that person's personal life that may be causing the emotional deficit of behavior. But it doesn't mean that if that thing is fixed or they have some resolution, you wouldn't see, you know, mental illness as it was described by that person's behavior by those who may not know how to uh um really uh do their due diligence in assessing a person's mental health perspective, or is it really uh from the DSM 345, I guess DSM 5 now? I don't know if you use the same um clinical Bible as we do, or do they guess we do use the DSM 5 TR.

SPEAKER_01 11:40

Right now we are in the TR.

SPEAKER_04 11:42

Yeah, so so it's more westernized, even in Kenya, they're using the ideology and the model of the Western uh psychology to do practice there as well.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

Yes, I can say that for sure. That um, okay, so maybe let me let me look at this in two different ways. First of all, it depends on the kind of training that the individual uh has received, the professional has received. So I'll give you an example. When I was in my undergrad, I knew of the DSM 5. Uh at the time it was DSM 5, I knew of the DSM 5, and I was taught about the DSM 5, but between that time and the time I got my master's, I was not using it on a daily basis because of the kind of clients that I was seeing. I was not seeing clients who are clinically depressed, I could uh but but some clients who let's say are grieving or they are having kind of stresses in life that are making it difficult for them to function, work stress, things of that nature, things you cannot um diagnose using the DSM.

unknown 12:42

Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

Those are the kinds of people I was working with. So if I got a client whom I could see clearly, this person has a level of mental health challenges that I do not know how to work with, and most of the time that was a clinical diagnosis, I could refer those people out because I did not have the training to even use the DSM to understand what they were going through. But by the time I got into my master's, I had a clear understanding of what the DSM was. I had a clear understanding of how to use it to assess some of the clients I'm working with, and I could see where the line starts to become very easily identifiable that this person is moving towards clinical depression and not just um feeling depressed because they are having uh they have been fired from their job. So that clarity came because of the training using the DSM. And I know that that is being used in higher levels of learning, but at the lower levels, the bachelor's level, uh the diploma level, the certificates level, they are not using that exact model. So it really depends on the training that the person has gotten and the backdrop they have uh gotten when they are studying. If you're doing counseling psychology, it's not as clinical as when you're doing clinical psychology. So it depends on the training that the person has gotten. But overall, we do use the DSM and we do use a very westernized model of training. Even in class, we read a lot of Western books, we read a lot of Western authors. So we are learning mostly curricula that is uh global in that sense. I don't know if that kind of answers the question.

SPEAKER_06 14:07

Okay. Uh uh let me just chime in real fast. The do you think um uh you say you use the Western model, but do you still feel like innately, possibly, uh that you would have some type of Eastern or African um spirit behind it, if that makes sense? Like in other words, looking at the individual rather than looking at everybody as a number?

SPEAKER_01 14:37

Yes, 100%. So one of the things that has come up very much in the work I have been doing and also the people that I interact with is bringing is not pathologizing everything and also looking at people as human beings before you put a label on them. So for me personally, if I may speak for myself, I don't use the DSM as the thing that tells me what this person is struggling with, and that's the end of it all, let's put it on a treatment plan. I use the DSM to give me some light on some of the challenges the individual is going through. So, for example, if somebody comes to me and they have they tell me they've been going, they have been feeling depressed lately, I will not go in there and start guessing uh anything related to depression. First of all, I want to remember what the criteria says in the DSM 5T are regarding depression. So that becomes like a foundation for me to understand some of the things that this person is going through. But then because of my counseling psychology background, I also bring the human element to it. I remember that this person, these are just a list of symptoms because of what they're feeling right now. It does not mean that this is the thing that I am going to diagnose them with, and that is the end of it all. Because I don't even give medication. I'm not a psychiatrist, right? So I can't fully say that using the DSM, I automatically assume that I automatically let's say give a diagnosis and let's now work on a treatment plan. That the that the DSM is more of a it's like the constitution, it's like a guideline, something to help me think about what my clients are going through. Not something to determine everything that my client is going through. So for me, it's like a tool that gives me confidence. It's like the theories, it's like learning the counselling theories. It gives me a foundation to understand mental health. But it's not a definitive item that says this is it. Because I know that does not apply to all of us, and especially to African populations, because some of uh some of these concepts have not even been researched on African populations, on Kenyan populations.

SPEAKER_03 16:39

Right, right, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

Yeah, so for me it's a it's a tool. It's like how I read books and I take out what applies and I keep expanding my knowledge, but I don't use it as a determinant for every single person who walks into the room and I decide that now you have depression, let's put you on medication or let's do this treatment plan. Sometimes there's no treatment plan, there's just an understanding of what the client is going through and trying to figure out how they can live a life that is meaningful in despite of their challenges. That does not mean you're gonna eradicate. Yeah, and there are some things you can never eradicate.

SPEAKER_04 17:11

Yeah, and you know, and what you're saying is it'll be if you were here, it'll be a contradiction to what the system here uses the DSM for. And of course, when we say DSM, we're talking about um diagnostical um statistical manual, DSM, right? DSM 345. But what they do here because of the insurance companies, they you have to give them a label. You have to give them a diagnosis. And that's the unfortunate thing. Me in private practice, because I'm more of a holistic clinician, I'm not only looking at uh the medical model because that's what we call conventional medicine. I function on functional medicine, which involves the entire person, just like, you know, a plant that may be uh you're seeing a yellow leaf on a plant where you know the cause is the root, not the leaves themselves. So here we will treat the leaves and don't even understand what a cause is. So in my practice, I love to see the person's life fully and in all aspects and learn now how, what's the best intervention for that person before even giving them a diagnosis. But here, if you if they come and see you for the first 20 minutes, that assessment is so that you can diagnose because you have to put in um a code so that you can get paid for the insurance time that you spent with that person. It doesn't mean that that that that diagnosis really prescribed to the person's real problem at all because you don't even know the person as of yet. You know, you're just assessing. So it's unfortunate. So I like the idea of what you're saying because in your culture, the socioeconomical environment describes so much of our emotional and reactive mind to life on life terms. It really doesn't mean that there's a neurological damage of any kind that really should be more focused as far as mental illness, because there has to be some physiological deficit for mental illness to really be, you know, prescribed to and deal with. But life on life terms, we're all having mental health issues, you know, just because of life on life terms. So everyone is in need of mental health assessment and um, you know, into introspective on their own selves. So do you talk to people about being more introspective in the holistic um assessment of their lifestyle and how they're perceiving everything and the negativism of how we're looking at it while it caused so much implosion on ourselves?

SPEAKER_01 19:53

Um yeah, I agree with what you're saying, and yes, uh, the way that I practice, I think part of the training that I got, um I received training that has helped me understand that there's maybe the best one to put uh to describe it is I got a lot of existential training in during my studies. So existential therapy training and approaching things from a humanistic perspective. And uh, for those who are listening and they know anything about psychology, they know that means uh unconditional positive regard, uh, empathy, genuineness, curiosity relating to another human being as a human being. So the moment I get into the therapy room, um I am encouraging the client, first of all, to remember that I am not going to give them uh answers to their life because I am not the expert of their life. They are. And beyond that, there is work that needs to be done beyond knowing what you are going through. There's a lot of work that is required in understanding how to actually change the patterns of your life that are making your life difficult. And a part of that is also accepting that some a lot of life is uncertain, and that is the existential perspective of it, that a lot of life is uncertain, there are things you will never get answers to, and you have to look inwards to find out what are you willing to do with, what kind of a life are you willing to create so that you do not continue suffering over things that you cannot control. So if you spend a lot of time, I I do encourage my parents to remember that if they spend a lot of time running around looking for the label that will define what they are going through, but they are not willing to do any work to change and and uh correct the patterns that are contributing to their suffering, then they are going to continue suffering no matter how much medication they take, no matter how many labels they put on themselves. So my work really encourages people to kind of reduce the number of labels you want to assign to yourself because because each label kind of limits you to a certain way of being. If you want to say that, um, yes, let's say you have anxiety, if you if you if you have been given the label of anxiety, what what then does that look to you? That label limits you. There are things you're not going to do because you Say, my anxiety does not allow me to do X, Y, and Z. Now you own it, you start identifying with it, you start calling it my anxiety. Yet it is your anxiety, and sometimes you are anxious, and sometimes you are not, and though that is reality. So the moment you focus on it's my anxiety, and I am an anxious person, then you eliminate automatically eliminate other aspects of yourself, and we are multidimensional. So encourage myself to I encourage my clients to think about the labels and the identities they are seeking to confirm that those identities are actually uplifting, not identities that limit them to a very narrow way of being. Because that then makes it difficult for them to live a meaningful life.

SPEAKER_06 22:37

I got just a little bit of I'm not gonna say pushback because it's not necessarily my specific opinion, but I will give the argument that I've heard people say the label get me relief gave me relief because I knew something was wrong. I just didn't know if I was overanalyzing myself and being that same introspection was used in the wrong way because I'm being extra critical of myself. I was pressuring myself, and maybe society was pressuring me, maybe my parents were pressuring me, maybe my religion was pressuring me. So, in a sense, hmm, is this normal what I'm going through? Or is it something else that is going wrong? And if I identify that label, then is that label who I am, or is it just a part of something that's going on with me at this current moment and I need to break out of it? So I think it's a matter of perspective and then training people to view a label, even if they do get a label, because we gotta, you know, live with life on life to terms, like like Glenn said. So if you go to see a psychologist, they may not have the training that you have, they may not think the way uh Glenn thinks. So if they're gonna give me the label, I might as well take that and use it to my advantage so I can, you know, make a positive come out of a let's say negative label.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

Yeah, yeah. No, I understand that argument, and I have had it before that uh the label helped, the label made me confirm that um what I was going through was not uh something in my head, just in my head. It was actually an actual issue that I was struggling with, and I respect that. Um so what I usually say on top of that is now that you've identified it, yes, now you have a label. What would you like to do with that label? Would you like to own it and use it to define the kind of life you're gonna live? Or would you like to use it to be able to build a life that is beyond that label? Because it's very easy to take that label and then limit yourself and stop exploring and being curious about your life because you've already established that this label is who I am. So then that becomes another prison that you put yourself in. Now you have a label, yes, but now you're in a prison. You cannot build a life outside of it. So I challenge my clients all the time. I'm like, okay, yes, we've identified, fine, fine. I'm gonna give you a label if that will make um will make managing easier. But then what where would you like to go with this label?

SPEAKER_06 25:14

What would you like to do with it? What now?

SPEAKER_01 25:16

What now? Yeah, yeah. How would you like to what would you like to do with it?

SPEAKER_06 25:20

Okay, no, that's great. But I want to shift the focus a little because we're talking about a lot of the labels. You you mentioned briefly the the history, but what aside from I want to say the the witch stuff you mentioned in the beginning, more present day. Present day, I I heard you speak, and you said that there's a um a mental illness portrayal that you see on social media, and you said that it's becoming a common trend. Like, and I know I know you may know if you're on social media, you hear the word narcissism get thrown out like it's somebody's name. You get you hear anxiety all the time, you hear I'm depressed so much. And not only is it being portrayed, it's being monetized, and it's not my it's not what it is. It's it's it's a facade of what we think is going on. And then even if we take it to um a step behind that, we have this facade, we have this image in the present, but then that's taken away from the actual issues that you could say Africa, Kenya, and uh uh whatever you want to call it feel because there is some actual issues that come from history that could be physiological, which goes to the holistic approach of psychological and even physical. They all work together. So, what are the real issues that are being overlooked by those uh portrayals we see on TikTok and etc, etc.?

SPEAKER_01 27:03

Um, I don't know what the best way to answer this question is, but I can say that first of all, something that I have seen is people trying to use mental health and mental illnesses and mental health issues in general as something to to get some kind of sympathy or leverage out of the internet, um, just to seem us there's a there's a there's a kind of aesthetic that comes with having mental health issues to say, yeah, I'm anxious, yeah, I'm usually I usually uh I usually have um I'm usually depressed. So if you see me going quiet, just know that I am depressed. But but then these there's um it's like a trend. It's like there's a way that I have seen people try to make it seem like it's fashionable. Fashionable is the right word. It's like it's fashionable to be depressed, it's fashionable to be anxious. Like, are you not anxious? Are you not do you not go to therapy? Even going to therapy is fashionable. Like people are just like, yeah, I go to therapy, and then I'm like, you're like, okay. I I don't think I don't think it should it's supposed to be a fashion trend. It's I don't I don't see people who go to hospital to get their ARVs because they are HIV positive, going out there and being like, you don't go to get ARVs, you don't get ARVs. I go to ARVs, it's not a trend, it's an illness. And I don't know, I don't know when it became fashionable to be mentally ill. And it's not all mental illnesses. If you look at it, it's not all mental illnesses that people want to be fashionable about. It's things like OCD, uh, ADHD, uh, autism, spectrum disorder, uh, depression, but not all depressions, the specific ones that are fashionable. Uh, anxiety, but not all anxieties. There's the fashionable one, the social anxiety. I have social anxiety disorder. I'm usually, I don't like being around people. And I'm like, that's not social anxiety disorder. Yeah, and it's okay for you to not want to be around people, but if it's not a disorder, if you meet somebody who has social anxiety disorder, I promise you you will not want it. If you meet somebody who actually has uh OCD, I promise you it is something you will not want. Because of how um debilitating it is, how paralyzing it can be, how much it impairs functioning in an individual, how much it makes it difficult for you to actually do the things that help you live a meaningful life. So I think because of how it has become just popular to own these labels, um, mental health conversations have been diluted. So people who are actually struggling find it difficult to even share that they are struggling because they are like, I will if if I share my struggle and the way I experience this disorder, then people will first of all look at it and be like, but it doesn't look like the one that you know, the one you've seen on social media. So maybe you are exaggerating, or maybe you're pretending, or you're acting like you you you are better than or like you're struggling more. So it doesn't look like what we have been fed that it should look like. But in reality, depression, anxiety, all these disorders are not fashion statements. They are not cute, you know, they are not fickle, they are either actual disorders that affect real people and make it difficult for them to live their lives. So that is the portrayal I have seen because now there are people who even use it uh to be influencers and to start selling products and to start telling you uh this product helped me, you should use it. And then now they start pushing pills and things towards the audience just because they feel that it's fashionable. So that I find that to be very disturbing. That uh we have swung from not talking about mental health to now talking about it so much that you have normalized nonsense instead of normalizing mental health. Now we have just normalized just the nonsense that comes with it.

SPEAKER_04 30:51

Were you aware of that, Glenn? Well, you know how I do. Um I know I I never followed the conventional model because it it's not it makes no sense. It's it's two of those terms.

SPEAKER_06 31:04

Were you aware that there's a lot of people on social media? Because I know you're not really on social media much, um, that it now it's the cool thing. Now it's the thing you want to tattoo on your body, depression, uh, anxiety on this side. Did you know that that was a trend?

SPEAKER_04 31:20

Yeah, but that that's what we've been taught. So the public have been taught this by very strategic um people to make it seem as a disease, even. You hear the word used disease for mental illness and mental health. Mental health or mental illness is not a disease. If you if you have the disease, that means it's been discovered in a cadaver by those who have to look into a dead body and discover diseases. Mental health is literally created in the sense of the dynamic of how we labor it. Like you're saying, it's not the label we're treating. We're treating a person's holistic experience in life from all types of adversities and and traumas and different things. So I don't, I don't, I don't, I see the public out there, even in social media, have been infused with a with a definition uh of mental illness or mental health as something to really apply to that that personality and your behavior and your personality.

SPEAKER_06 32:25

I'll give you a lot of pushback, and and we've we spoke about this before, but there there is a reality that we have to deal with as it comes. And there's no way, you may not want to label it a disease, an illness, et cetera, et cetera. But there is a reality that we got to go through, and which it was the question before the initial question I just said, and it's something that's often overlooked. And I want to say uh history broadly speaking. And I'm not talking about just my mother, I'm not talking about just my mother's mother. I'm talking way back, there's been so much trauma embedded in our DNA for so many years. Can we get over it? Absolutely, of course. But there is an actual reality of that trauma that's manifested and shows up every single day, and there's no way we can uh overlook it and say, oh, well, I mean, this autism, you know, it's not real. It's like, no, it's it's it's real. So when you said pushback, I don't I'm I'm push back on what? Nah, pushback on on the whole the whole disease, and you gotta open up the body and the cadaver. That that's what I'm talking about. Because we can we don't have to open up a body to know. Nah, there's there's plenty of brain scans that will tell you what somebody has nowadays. It it may not be available for everybody, but it's available.

SPEAKER_04 33:47

I don't specialize in that part, but I'm what I'm saying to you as one who has to deal with departmentalizing the medical and the psychological, there is an extreme difference. For instance, most of the uh medical disorders literally can be um being uh uh have an effect with mental diagnosis. A lot of the medical, for instance, somebody has thyroidism, like for my clients, I don't see them until I tell them go get a medical examination so we can rule out any underlying medical issues, because a lot of the symptoms that we are experiencing physiologically can come from a medical disposition that they have not discovered, such as thyroidism, which you will have bipolarism uh behavioral symptoms, but that doesn't take care of the medical situation. So if you take a person who comes to a psychologist and their focus is only on psychology and intervention, rather than the physiological necessity for medical intervention, which is supposed to be a prerequisite, before we treat a client in clin in psychology, we got to make sure physiologically, medically, that they don't have an underlying disposition that may be putting out those symptoms as anxiety and depression and certain things like that. So there's a is a huge problem, even in this country where in the psychology realm, we're just focusing on symptoms rather than making sure the medical and uh psychological is bridged in our assessment to make sure that we're not overlooking something that that person may be, like for instance, you know how I always tell people if you are nutritionally deficient of micronutrients, a lot of the symptoms you're having is because of a poor diet. And you will see anxiety, you will see depression, you will see all these things. So there's a correlation between medical mental illness, medical, mental health, and nutrition, even. So you can't just look at it in one, you know, um specific. You have to be holistically involved in assessing that client before you even start treating them for anything. So we have to rule out people.

SPEAKER_06 36:02

I'll take that. I'm just you know, I just gotta put it out there because I didn't, I I know it can't be one or the other, which goes to the next thing that I wanted to talk about and I wanted to get uh Jennifer's opinion to see if it's uh a reality that I see. I know Glenn has met many uh Africans and you could say the the broader African world, you could say, and otherwise in uh the United States, and they have this thing that I I I marked it. I don't know if this is exactly what called instant success pressure. Uh so instant success pressure, where they feel they have so much pressure to be successful, and they have to do it so rapidly and so efficiently that there is no gray area. So, for example, you will have, let's say, a Nigerian family go the second they step foot in the United States, they're like, I am gonna become a neurosurgeon. And yes, that is a great expectation, but the the reality is that it puts an immense amount of pressure that may lead to issues. Because what if they don't meet those expectations? And I know from being here, at least for the most part, from what I see, the expectations of Kenny are relatively high. So, how do you discern you're gonna be a doctor? And you know what? Like, let's let's try to figure out a place where you'll be successful in your own right elsewhere, and it can't be one or the other, it gotta be a gray area. That's how I see it.

SPEAKER_01 37:33

Interesting. I don't know if I have met um instant success pressure. I don't think I've seen it. Um I don't I don't think I've seen anybody with that experience. What I know I have seen is people wanting to succeed so bad that they are willing to do anything, even when it is sometimes detrimental to their own health. And it's not because they are greedy or they are people who can't be satisfied, people who don't have contentment. I don't think that's the issue. I think the issue is that what what drives this desire for success so badly is mostly because of the pressure that comes from family, and it's not that the family is pressuring you, it's the situation you're seeing in the family, and you're thinking, I need to succeed so that I can get my family out of this situation, or at least I can leave this family situation, because especially for people who grew up in poverty or people who grew up in um an economic situation that was not very good, not necessarily below the poverty line, but just an economic situation that you look at and you're like, hmm, no. And maybe also uh for people who have migrated from the rural areas to the urban areas and they are seeing how the people in the urban areas live. So now they get the pressure to upgrade and look like everybody else. So, for example, if they notice that other people are living in a certain neighborhood that looks much better than the neighborhood they came from, they want to upgrade themselves and get there as well. So they are willing to do whatever it takes. Sometimes it leads to burnout, sometimes it leads to doing things that you don't want to do, uh, sometimes putting yourself in situations that um are not healthy for you, just to kind of upgrade. And that is something that I have seen, that that people want to really um raise the bar of living, the status of living that they they are on, because Nairobi is a very competitive city and people are upgrading everything. If you have driven around Nairobi, you have seen the cars on the roads. If you are a person that is tempted by that, you are going to want all that for yourself and for the people around you. So people have that pressure, the pressure to just upgrade as soon as possible and willing to do whatever it takes. And that's why I think um you might hear that people say that Nairobi, and I think Kenya was put on the list for financial crimes, something, something last year. Uh, it was on the list of top countries with financial crimes, something, something. Don't quote me, but I know it's there, and I saw it, um, I saw a poster about it. So um there's that desire for for making money because Nairobi is cutthroat. Nairobi requires you to survive. Nairobi is called the concrete jungle because you just have to find a way to survive, and so there's a lot of pressure for that.

SPEAKER_06 40:29

Do you do you think that I could uh um I guess be shown and displayed and manifested in people? Uh so that same pressure makes people go, uh I forgot the name again, but Mendoanda or makes them. Exactly, makes them uh seem that way when obviously they're not. They're just in an environment where they they gotta hustle, like you say. You're trying to make it cutthroat.

SPEAKER_01 40:57

Yeah, yeah. Uh, I wouldn't say mendawazimu per se, because wenawazimu is basically uh the the local term that people use on the streets to describe uh schizophrenia, which is a pure serious critical mental illness, you can't even um you can't even you can't even see it on the local people, just the regular person walking down the street. But I would say that the stresses, the stresses, the depression, and the anxiety, you can see them coming from that kind of pressure. Because if I am constantly being exposed to my colleagues at work who are doing so much better than me, or I am seeing my friends that I went to high school with, I am seeing them posting on Instagram, on on Facebook, nobody uses Facebook, on Instagram that they are uh they have bought a car, they have gone to vacation in Mombasa or Diani, they are going to Dubai. I am seeing these people that I went to high school with in the same village back home, and suddenly they came to Nairobi and they made it. Why am I not making it? What is it I'm not doing correctly? What is it I am not what is it I'm not trying? I thought I went to campus like everybody else. How come? And there's a lot of educated people in Nairobi, by the way. Uh, education in Nairobi is very, very high. People go to university, young people are getting educated. So you find that if you're looking at your education, you went to so many to compass with so many people, and they are making it, and you're not making it. And by making it, I'm not saying that you can't afford to put a roof over your head. I'm saying you've not bought the latest designer something, and you're not, you've not gotten a money bouquet for Valentine's or whatever a celebration. You have not bought the latest shoes, you know.

SPEAKER_06 42:29

Yeah, where do those expectations come from?

SPEAKER_01 42:32

It just comes from the society at hand, or yeah, that and also just the global uh the the global the global sense of it or remember Nairobi, we we we not Nairobi, but Kenya does look a lot to America for cultural related identities. So like we we listen to a lot, we watch a lot of shows from America, and I mean America has an influence everywhere, right? But Kenya, we absorb we we absorb a lot from America. We read a lot of novels from America. We read if you go to the streets and you look at the booksellers who sell books on the streets, 99.9% of the books on the streets, the ones that are going for 100 Kenya shillings, are books that are from America. And they are books written by Americans. It's not just a random book from the UK or a random book from Australia. It's mostly American content. On TikTok, on Facebook, on Instagram, we look at a lot of American content and a lot of global content. Because again, remember, Kenya has a lot of uh we have good internet. So technology is very accessible for all of us, for most of us. Yeah. So we are not just looking at our neighbors, we are looking at the global perspective.

SPEAKER_06 43:41

Do you see that as a net positive or net uh negative?

SPEAKER_01 43:45

Hard to say. Hard to say because that's the same, that's the same that connectivity and that looking outside, looking at the global perspective, is what has helped advance.

SPEAKER_05 44:01

Hold on one second.

SPEAKER_01 44:05

Yeah. So um uh the the the that connectivity, internet access, technology access, um urbanization.

SPEAKER_06 44:15

No, that that's not necessarily what I mean. I mean the consumption of you can say American content.

SPEAKER_01 44:20

Yes, that that's exactly what I'm saying. All that that is what has, I think, in my perspective, that's what has contributed to Nairobi becoming the silicon savannah that it is. It is considered the silicon savanna because of the tech development. Because we look outside, so our benchmark is very high. We don't compare ourselves to fellow Africans, we compare ourselves to a global stage.

SPEAKER_05 44:40

Okay, yeah. That's that's good. I'm glad it can all be bad.

SPEAKER_04 44:46

It's it's funny. I don't know, Jennifer. Do you know um a bookstore in Nairobi? It used to be, it's called Chania, C-H-A-N-I-A. Yeah. Chania bookstore. That was my that's my wife's father's um, he was uh a huge bookstore owner, and that was his bookstore. And yeah, it's closed down now, but you're right, a lot of the influence, the Western, when I went there and I saw so much of the American cultural norms, the McDonald's and all these things, I'm like, oh what the they have just infiltrated. So yeah, more it's I was expecting to be more culturally um excited about Kenya. I didn't want to see America in Kenya. You know?

SPEAKER_01 45:31

Yeah. So especially moving. These are lots of American movie.

SPEAKER_04 45:35

Yeah, so when I thought about bringing moving my practice there, I knew it was good because I'm I'm what you would call an eclectic clinician. I do not follow the methodology or ideology of just one person. I'm looking at it from a holistic perspective. I don't say that, you know, their perspective is not a possibility, but it's not definitive because mental health is so holistically involved in assessing a person's entire whole person, not only their experience, but their physiological, their, you know, neurological, their emotional, their belief, their, you know, everything, you know. So how do you see the the when you look at people and their programming? Because I really look at people's program, meaning what they're believing and consistently allowing to follow their behavior is very, very important because it's showing you where their problem is coming from. So do you normally do your practice looking at behavior so you can see the belief that governs it, or are you just not looking at the persons who's coming with you with all of the things we need? They're either going to tell us in their behavior or how they're thinking where the problem really is, rather than using the DSM4 to diagnose variables and try to put it under the umbrella of, let's say, major depressive disorder and the variable that this, you know, the DSM 4 or 5 will say, if these things, these variables are active for let's say two weeks at a time and it's consistent, and you know, then you can label that person with that. But that has nothing really to do with the reality of that person's life and the fullness of why they're having these episodes or um periodic behavioral deficits. It may be so much way off the DSM four or five, the DSM compared to what that person really needs to help them to be much more stable in how they function in everyday socioeconomic life with the relationships that they have. So do you focus on that more so than trying to use the westernized model that has been brought to Kenya and say this is what psychology is?

SPEAKER_01 47:56

Um I would say that I use both because I have found that when I use both, I feel more confident in the work that I am doing, and I have seen people get more from both perspectives. And I try to find what can help the students I was about to say students, I try to find what can help the client the most. And so I don't I don't get caught up in there's only one way or there's only this thing that I know that I need to do. I do a lot of consultations as well, like consulting with my supervisor and consulting with my peers. So I belong to a peer group, and this peer group also has people who practice very differently from myself. So when I have a case, I don't I don't only think about their behavior. Uh, because every KVA is adaptive, depending on how you look at it. People do things because they help, um, they help them survive. So people are not just doing things because they are morally uh bankrupt or because of any other reason, mostly it's because it helps them survive. So I look at it from what are you doing? Uh, how is it contributing to your current uh struggles? But also, uh, what does the DSM say about this thing? What can I borrow from this that could help me understand what is going on with you? Does the stuff that I am saying kind of explain some of the experiences that you're having? And if it doesn't, that's totally fine. It does not have to. We are just looking at what can help us understand your inner working because uh the client is the expert, and if they are the expert of their life and I am trying to understand them, I need to find as many resources as possible to help me in that understanding. So I try to borrow as much as I can, and I borrow from different theorists, different people who are practicing, my supervisor, what they're thinking, uh, what the client is thinking. Sometimes what I am saying might not be what they need. So there's a lot of collaboration, basically. That's what I would say.

SPEAKER_06 49:45

Oh, that's great. That's great. Yeah. I I didn't even know like what where do you see the trend before before you respond, Glenn? Where do you see the trend going from where psychology is now? Uh in let's just stick it to Kenya going towards the future. Do you see an uprise or do you see it just from a stagnant?

SPEAKER_01 50:07

I I see an uprise. And speaking of Kenya, especially, I would say I can see an uprise of uh more mental health conversations being had and us getting to a place where we can support more people. And one of the reasons I am saying that is because um right now we have a mental health division in the Ministry of Health, and it initially we did not have it, and now we have it. We have a counsellors and psychologist board that we did not have, and now we have. So movement is happening. We have a private mental health facility that can serve more people, so all the pressure and all the work is not being left to Matari National Teaching and Referral Hospitals. Now there are other places you can get support. Um back in during COVID, there was a uh there was a thing that was going on with the government where they put Nairobi under something called the Nairobi Metropolitan Services kind of umbrella thing. And the NMS, Nairobi Metropolitan Services, introduced mental health services to almost every uh public health facility in Nairobi. So you could go there and find a psychologist, you could go there and find a psychiatrist, there was psychotherapy clinics, there was psychiatric clinics on certain days. It was not every day, but certain days. And there's a whole list, I can share it if you want to have a look at it. Oh, but that's that's a problem.

SPEAKER_05 51:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:28

Yeah. Definitely.

SPEAKER_05 51:29

So there's a what were you gonna say, Glenn? Sorry.

SPEAKER_04 51:33

Yeah, I I wanted to, you know, for me, one of the most highest prioritized perspective when it comes to dealing with clients is their health, right? Their physiological physiological health. And we know culturally, here in America, probably now, mostly now in Kenya, um, and I'm from Trinidad originally, and it's also happening there, where we have gotten off the priority of proper nutrition, and we're starting to eat all these processed foods and everything, and which has a direct effect on our mental health or even how our physiological body expresses symptoms because of poor nutrition. Is it oh and in I know in Kenya, uh, from my experience of the observation and of my wife and her family and how I see the culture, um, isn't doesn't seem to be focusing on a high priority of wellness when it comes to physiological health, when it comes to nutritional health. Do you see that as a major problem that we may not be looking at the underlying problems as a major cultural issue, such as nutrition, but we're promoting the symptomatic expression of poor nutrition in our culture because of poverty, because of not proper nutrition, because we're promoting the same westernized food and everything. So, like in this country, most of the symptoms that I'm dealing with from clients is because of a lack of health. I mean, and nutritional, foundational health is one of the major problems while we can see all of these symptoms expressing themselves, but we're not paying attention to that. We're just paying to psychology rather than physiologically and nutrition and stuff like that. Is do you see that as the problem in Kenya as well, where nutrition is not a foundation of assessment, you know, before we get too deep into all of the um, you know, the medical model of psychiatry?

SPEAKER_01 53:40

Yeah. Um the interesting case of Kenya is that I as you've mentioned, I think in the US, um food, let's say like uh uh KFC, uh McDonald's, that's food that is very cheap, right? It's food that uh the people at the bottom of the financial pyramid are the people who can afford it, right? Uh it's a bit inverted in Kenya. KFC, burger king, that's not food that um a regular Kenyan is going to afford. That is food that is afforded by the middle class, people who have mostly jobs. That's the food that people eat to treat as a treat for themselves. It's not the food that you buy every day. Because a two-pisa in KFC, I think, with fries, is going to cost you about 500 or more. I think so. I don't buy KFC, but uh nothing, no, no shit to KFC. But a two-pizza with fries is about 500 Kenya shillings. If I think about a regular Kenyan, 500 shillings is money that you can go to the supermarket and get a packet of flour and you can get vegetables from the local kiosk at your home. Tomatoes, uh skuma wiki, and you can get maybe uh meat for 100 bob. 100 shillings. So that's like almost 500 corn.

SPEAKER_06 55:00

So so you're just saying culturally speaking, there's just not an issue because the influence is a very important thing.

SPEAKER_01 55:06

It's not that there's not an issue there. Yeah, it's not that it's not an issue, it's that it has not uh it has not affected the lower class as much as it might affect the middle class. So for the middle class, that's a conversation you start with because the middle class, first of all, are the people who can afford therapy most of the time. Therapy in private practice, not therapy in a public hospital. Therapy in a public hospital, most people can afford, because it's like 500 or less. But the middle class who are paying 4,000, 5,000, 6,000 for a therapy session are the people who are going to be able to afford KFC on a regular basis for it to be a problem. So the exact problem.

SPEAKER_04 55:46

Yeah. And it's not uh when I was talking about nutrition, not just on particular type like processed food, but just in general, like for instance, you know, I try to tell my clients, you have to have a robust desire to be not only um eating right, sleeping right, hydration, exercise, all of those things that is a natural um, it's an it's a necessity for the body's well-being. And most cultures, even here in the United States, and I know in Kenya too, it's not a priority to promote those things. And what we call preventive medicine is really what I try to promote rather than getting, you know, get ahead of it, rather than just treating symptoms. But there's a lifestyle that doesn't matter, if you don't change that foundational lifestyle, then you will never get, you know, a control to in a with a lot of the symptomatic um uh intervention that we deal with. So most folks are not looking at their lifestyle as a major issue why they're exhibiting all of these symptoms. So, do you promote that self uh that preventive health so that your clients can actually understand they have a lot to do with why these things may be manifesting, you know, not just cognitively, but physiologically as well.

SPEAKER_01 57:06

Yes, 100%. That is something that I talk about a lot with almost every one of my clients. Among the very first questions that I will ask my clients when we start therapy is how do you sleep? If they do not have a straight answer for that, we are going to put them on a sleep tracker automatically. Uh when you wake up in the morning, just write down how many hours did you sleep, when did you go to bed last night, what had you eaten before you went to bed, uh, how did you wake up feeling? How are you feeling right now? How did the day continue? What did you eat? Um, did you take a nap in between? Things of that nature. I would want to know among the very first sessions, we want to know what is your diet like, uh, how is your sleep? What is your level of physical activity? And are you on any medication? Those are questions that I ask every single one of my clients because I know all those things will impact the way we are going to do therapy, and it will impact the kind of um progress they are gonna see with their mental health if they are uh struggling in one way or another. And on top of all that is the social aspect. I also find out what um what how their life is peopled basically, and those things for me are vital, and I encourage every one of my clients to bring information about them.

SPEAKER_05 58:15

Okay, yeah, yeah, it was good to hear.

SPEAKER_04 58:19

And what you know when when I visit Kenya, right? One of the things, which is a social gathering, you know, they eat a whole lot of meat, you know, uh with a map. I forgot the term Namachama. Namachama, Nama Chama. Right, and and uh and they love, you know, drinking beer, especially the men that I've been around. And so a lot of the cultural norms of socialization, do you see it as a major problem? Because no one takes that away from the problems that it's manifesting because they love the life that they're living. So they're it's but it's contributing to a demise in proper health, you know, and longevity in a lot of ways. Do you see the culture waking up because there's an alarm out there, such as your voice saying, you know, yes, we can treat these symptoms, but we could prevent them by the lifestyle that we have been accustomed to, and we're programmed to think this is okay, but it's not. Is there a voice out there in Kenya to promote that?

SPEAKER_01 59:20

Yes, I think most people are very aware of um general well living well, especially in Nairobi. Um, the healthy lifestyle is something that is spoken a lot about. I don't know about the level of practicing, but I know that healthy living is something that people talk about a lot, a lot, a lot. Even when you go on Kenyan TikTok, healthy living is something that many people will be talking about. There's been an uprise in numbers of people uh being more physically active. There's running class, there is uh people who will run on along Tika Road. You you can see the memes if you if you look hard enough. Um, hiking, there's a time Nairobians were being told they just need to go back upcountry and do the hiking the hiking there by doing what they used to do when they were kids. Um healthy living is and going to the gym is a big part of the middle class right now. Everybody wants to go to the gym for some reason, it's even a meme at least. Um, healthy living is a lifestyle that many people are talking about from what I have seen. But I don't know about the level of practice, so that is something that I am a bit grey on. But um, it's something that I talk about with my clients and I encourage them to do because I do it.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:35

Okay. Well, I I mean, I I just want to cut in just because uh I don't want to keep you too long, and uh, and I I wanted to uh just one more thing just to cap off uh um cat cap on cap off at is um I I I wanted to know go back into the family because we talked about a little bit about that pressure that you said happens a lot internally from the family, and there's something that doesn't get discussed too often, and I think that's the development of the child within the home. I'm not familiar with the homes over here, but I'm familiar with the homes and where I was brought up, and that was a world of neglect on top of pressure. So, how do you neglect me and you're pressuring me at the same time? You gotta choose one or the other. That's the way I see it. But is that pressure, does it manifest to in a in a negative um way where it causes issues for the child? And if so, how do we resolve the issues? Because this whole thing is about solutions. So if you can, I guess, address the childhood development aspect of it and then the solution from there, uh present future.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:56

Okay. Um I think the pressures that come, especially within the family setting and especially in childhood, are academic performance for sure, because academic performance is seen to be the thing that will get you out of the poverty or out of the difficult situation you're in. So that now when you do your exams, you pass your exams, you go to campus, you study, you get a first class, you will get a good job, and if the good job, you'll get good money and be able to get the family out of poverty and help your brothers and sisters who come after you. So that's kind of how the pressure uh kind of progresses. And for the people who have not been able to hit those milestones, let's say you went to campus, yes, and you got that first class, but you didn't get the job. Then now it feels like you're a disappointment to your family members because they're looking up to you. They invested all this money in putting you through university, and now you are not able to pull them out, you're not able to support them, you're not able to make the situation much better. So, that of course then makes the relationships very much strained between parents and children, especially the children who are not doing very well. But again, this is um this this goes, it depends on the family, depends on the situation they are in. Uh, some family kind of band together in that season and they're like, We're gonna be with you, we're gonna try our best, come back home. Uh, by whom I mean most probably upcountry, come back home, uh, come and do what we do. Go to the farm, uh, watch over the cattle, let's build a small life and continue living as we did. Others will put pressure and be like, you have to find a way, you have to find a way because you're the only hope that you have. Uh, so it's it can go either direction. So I think one of the solutions is extending a little bit more grace to especially the kids that are being expected to pull the families out of the poverty. Because most of the time they are trying. They are really, really trying. And if you have been to Nairobi, as I was said, it's uh it's it's a hassle culture, you have to hustle and hassle and hustle. So most of the time, they are not just sitting and waiting for mana to fall from heaven. They are really trying. So we need to extend more grace, we need to be more patient. And for the people who are trying, you need to try as much as you can, but also not burn yourself out just because you're trying. It never ends well. So there's a lot of grace from both angles. You give yourself grace, you do your best, but also the people that you're support uh you are supporting, they give you grace, they extend themselves as much as they can, and then you all band together. Let's not leave it to that one individual to be the source of support for the family. Let every family member pull their weight so that you grow together. It's not one person's job to pull you out of poverty.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:35

So, so where would you, Safe Space, help me in my mission to pull them out, assuming that there's also grace? How can you help me get out of this situation? How can you guide me to the right path? Because you can't do any of the work for me. I gotta do it myself.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:56

Um I don't know how I would do it because I think it will depend on the situation and the individual. So, whatever, whatever, whatever you whatever your current struggle is, how does it manifest for you is where we would start. And what do you want to change? What are you willing to live with? What are you willing to change? And where do you want to start? Then how can you build a roadmap because you're the one who is going to implement those steps? Does it mean that maybe uh get the smallest job that you can and use the what you can, a little bit of it to invest in yourself, and a little bit of it to chip into the family uh situation, becoming a little bit more financially aware, becoming a little bit more curious, trying to apply for jobs outside if you're applying for jobs, apply for jobs outside of your range, outside of your country, uh in a different kind of um environment, building up your skills, technology is now very much available, extending your skills beyond what you learned in school, and then trying to see how I can live my life in such a way that I can balance both sides. That is how I would look at it.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:56

Okay, no, that's great. You know, and I I'm pretty sure Glenn. You got a lot to say about that because that's that's where he talks he said talks a lot about goals. You gotta have a goal on what you want to do. So you would uh assess the person's goal and then just take it from there and lead them to the best appropriate or route to to get to the next level.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:19

I'll let you guys have a question. Yeah, I'll have a question for you. Um, because I wanted to find out since you know the economy in in um Nairobi uh in Kenya as a whole have shifted. It was it was growing fast for a while, and then it shrank uh and it's being recovered when I was there. I think it's 2011. Um, but my question pretty much do you see the uh opportunity for all Kenyans to have access to the psychiatrical um interventional realm? Because, like in this country, everybody has access to mental health, even if they don't use it. There's a naturalized um uh insurance environment that allows us to have free mental health. Do they have that in Kenya? Because I'm sure you know it might be classes to where those who have, they get those treatment, and those who don't have, there's no advocates for those people, which is the majority of the people. Um I don't know if you are Kikuyu, if you are you're a different tribe, uh and if you're tribal too, have access to things that other tribes don't. So give me a sense of how you see the the socioeconomical environment giving access to the people who may really need it but can't get it because there is not a you know an apparatus to cater to them.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:44

I'm so glad you asked that because that's something I wanted to ask in the beginning. But thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:50

Um I don't think uh maybe somebody else would say something different, but for me, I don't think that access to mental health in this country is mainly or in any significant way um accessible because of a tribe that you come from. It's not along tribal lines. Mental health and healthcare in general, I don't think it is uh it cuts across tribal lines. It does not matter where you are as a Kenyan. Uh, if you do not have access to it, you do not have access, it does not matter your tribe. What in Kenya I have seen is um social economic status is a big is a bigger divider among us than tribalism is, in my opinion. Class is a bigger divider among us than than um that than tribe. And the other part of it is we might want uh as many people as possible to access mental health services in this country. But that's not where our problem starts. I think our problems start as do people in general know that mental health is something to go and seek support for. So the education part of it. There are people who don't know what depression is, there are people who do not know what a psychologist is, there are people who have never met a psychiatrist in their entire life and they don't know what that is. So when we talk about mental health access, first of all, I think one of the main things we need to mention is that it is mostly spoken about in Nairobi. That's the capital cities. Psychiatrists, psychologists, they are mostly concentrated in Nairobi. And maybe bigger cities like Sumo, uh, Mombasa, I would say to maybe Naivasha, Nakuru. Um but still, it's not something that you'll see. The knowledge of it is not something you will see that a majority of Kenyans know about. So it's very possible to live in a bubble, especially when you go on Twitter or social media. You'll think that every Nairobian, every every Kenyan knows something about mental health. That is not the reality. People on Twitter and they make up their own.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:51

Yeah, and you know, you would yeah, you would think, you know, we have the the phone line now that everyone has a phone and there needs to be some aggressive uh advertisement promo to just spread that all throughout the country would be nice because um most of the folks that there's a majority of people in poverty, more so than those who are in upper class. So you would think those people, most of the country really need to be informed about the access that they will they probably do need to be educated about. Are you one who's pro promoting that type of uh advertisement from your own personal, you know, privatized uh desire to spread this news throughout Kenya? Because if I come to Kenya, that would be one of the primary things I would want to do is to educate the people.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:44

I mean, I can chime in right here, and the only reason I could chime in is because I I reviewed her uh her YouTube, her Instagram, I've seen all the social platforms, which is the new media now, and you've done a great job of not only promoting yourself, but promoting uh other other Kenyans uh within the the country, not just yourself in the in a positive way. And that's I guess a good way to end because that's the the goal with having this type of dialogue. Obviously, people may not listen to all of it. I'll try to clip it up to captivate you know the most possible. And if you sell them a nice book cover, they're gonna want to buy the whole book, and then hopefully after that that they can you know change their brain and then change their their life. So there you go.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:34

Shameless plug.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:36

Shameless plug. I'll try, I'm I'll make sure you get a copy. Yeah, just just so um uh everybody knows. Uh Jennifer, I'm not gonna say your last name. Could you say it?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:49

It's Chalo. Jennifer Chalo.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:52

Chalo. Okay, Jennifer Chalo, because I said it before, but I didn't remember Jennifer Chalo. You can find her at uh Safe Space Arena, if I'm not mistaken, and that would be on Instagram and uh YouTube. I don't know if you have anything else you want to plug in, TikTok, etc. etc.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:08

Yeah, um everywhere Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, uh Spotify, Apple Podcasts. You can find anything. If you Google my name or you Google uh Safe Space Arena, you are going to find anything that is associated with me. Uh, you can buy my books. I'm happy to send you a copy and sign it um on Amazon directly, or you can just DM me and that's call as well. So thank you for watching.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:32

When will you be back in uh Kenya? I'm sorry, yeah, no problem, no problem. Glad to have you. Um when will you be back in Kenya? In Nairobi?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:41

I have no idea. I have no idea yet.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:44

Okay, well, I'll be here until March, most likely. So if anything, uh I hopefully we something can happen in that sense. We can meet up. Because there were so many things I wanted to do. Sub the country. For the sake of time, I just couldn't couldn't do it yet.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:02

Well, it's a pleasure meeting you. So you you're not in Kenya right now.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:06

No, she's in uh Rwanda, was it?

SPEAKER_06 1:13:09

Kigali?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:09

Yes, I'm in Kigali. I'm in Kigali.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:11

Ah, okay. Oh, it's lovely. I was there a couple weeks ago. It was uh so amazing. Where? Oh Rwanda, Kigali.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:21

Yeah, it was yeah, I haven't made that trip yet. That's one of my destinies. So definitely.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:26

And I'm a pleasure meeting. I mean, and no offense no offense to Kenya, uh, Jennifer, but I I hope one day every African country becomes more like Rwanda. And that's not offended. I I like Kenya, but you know, the standard is high with with Rwanda. It's been doing well, especially in a short period of time.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:48

Hey, you might get a whole lot of hits because of that, what you just said.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:55

Well, all right, so uh I'll I'll I'll I will email you Jennifer and uh Glenn I'll call you. Thank you very much, guys. Bye. Thank you.