Extra Biblical Writings - The Apocrypha and other things

In this episode, Dan and Scott tackle the hard questions concerning the Apocrypha and other extra biblical writings. Why did these books not make it into the more common, Protestant bibles of today? Did the Jewish people recognize these extra books and consider them a part of their sacred writings?  And what about words like deuterocanonical and pseudepigrapha, what do they mean?

These books are sometimes good for historical value, but some of them are outright heretical. What's going on? 

Join us as we discuss it!  

Produced, edited and hosted by Scott Askew and Dan Daugherty

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:17

Hey everybody, this is the Creek Cast with Dan and Scott, and we are excited to be with you today because we are going to be talking about a subject that um has been presented to us as um a question and um just something that has kind of been handed down to us through the centuries. It's not so much that we're gonna be looking at scripture today um as explaining scripture, but we're gonna be talking about scripture in terms of what belongs in it and what doesn't belong in it. And so uh Dan, it's good to have you again today, bud. You doing all right? Yep. Doing okay excellent. So it is the week of March 15th to March 22nd. Uh, we're recording on Tuesday, and this should go out either tonight or tomorrow. And we are excited because Easter is coming up. Uh this week we have the March 22nd is our upward Sunday. And so we expect a lot of folks and um our new Next Steps Ministry. You'll notice people in our foyer with uh nice, colorful shirts on. And uh, if you have any questions, you can ask them uh about what's going on, and they would love to introduce you uh to the staff, and we should be available after afterwards to the services to be able to talk and stuff, and so we hope to meet a lot of new people this weekend. And then we have a week break, kind of a regular Sunday, and then we enter into um uh Easter, of course, and not a regular Sunday, it's Palm Sunday, but it's but it's it's kind of a slower Sunday, a normal Sunday, and then Easter. And so we are very excited. Maybe during Easter week we'll do a special. I always like doing the chronological order of the Easter week, talking about what Jesus was doing on Monday, Tuesday, and such. But today we are going to be addressing a question that can that comes to us um from uh a friend, and um he was asking us about um the books of the Bible, how they arrived in at the canon of what we know Scripture to be, the 66 books uh that comprise the Old and New Testaments and our Protestant Bibles. Um, but he was asking also about um some missing books, um, the books that were uh included in some versions of the Bible, but not others. And so we have uh the books that we know commonly as the Apocrypha. Um that word can sometimes come across as an insult to um uh the Jewish people or others um who don't like that word. Uh we know them as deuterocanical. Um those books, not all those books fit the same category. Some deuter deuterocanonical books are not Apocrypha and so and such. And what we're doing today is I'm gonna let Dan teach it because, in complete honesty, I have this is a subject that while I know what I believe and I know to be true, I'm thankful that Dan in his uh scholarship and his advanced degrees and his study knows a lot more about this than I do, and I don't mind admitting a little ignorance. And so I'm going to be kind of the question guy today, and I might ask a question here for clarification. Um I'm gonna let Dan do a lot of the talking. I'll kind of help guide it with my questions. I know some of it, but I'm gonna let Dan teach the bulk of it because I think he'd be more accurate than I. How's that sound, Dan? Super I'm glad he's so excited about it.

SPEAKER_04 3:31

By the way, happy, happy St. Patrick's Day.

SPEAKER_01 3:32

Yeah, happy St. Patrick's Day.

SPEAKER_04 3:34

It's my second favorite holiday.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

There you go. Dan's got green on, of course. And me.

SPEAKER_04 3:38

Yeah, I have my Ireland socks on.

SPEAKER_01 3:40

And if you could, if we were video podcasting, you'd be. And I have my hat on this. Dude, how much green have you got on? What in the world? My hat's is Odhorte's. I'm just telling you right now, if you try to reach over and pinch me, we're gonna fight.

SPEAKER_04 3:52

So um dudes shouldn't pinch other dudes. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

That's right. That's rules. Dudes should not pinch other dudes.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

Um, you're gonna fight. Well, pinch away. Holds barred. Go edit. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

Anyway, let's let's let's get our minds off. Let's edit that out if you want. I don't know how to edit. Um, so uh, there's so my ignorance is on full display today. Um, no, we are gonna have a good time talking about this and we will uh see where we go. So um, Dan, why don't you get us started? Kind of with an overview of scripture and um the Apocrypha, the the deuterocanical books, and among other things, there'll be some other words that you'll hear today um that you need to I if you're taking notes, write them down and uh then you can kind of go and do a study. But I will go ahead and tell you there are many differing opinions and Dan's probably gonna hit on this a little bit. He said it earlier to me before. Just because someone claims to be a Bible scholar does not mean that they're a Christian. That's right. And you need to know who you're listening to. So um maybe we can make some suggestions during the podcast to you on who you can listen to. So, Dan, why don't you kick us off, get a starty kind of overview it for us?

SPEAKER_04 5:09

All right, so the first thing we need to start with is this word canon. Um, canon, we're not talking about a uh thing that causes a big boom.

SPEAKER_00 5:19

Oh, I should have had a sound effect. Yeah, that'd be but it's okay.

SPEAKER_04 5:24

So canon uh comes from the Greek word canon, uh, which literally means a measuring stick or a rule. Right. Um and so what the canon is, is it's the books um that we accept as scripture that become the rule or standard for what we believe.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

Right, the foundation. The foundation, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:46

And in the in the in the Protestant Bible, which Protestant is just uh non-Catholic or non-Orthodox. Um so Protestant comes from the word protest. It's in protest of. And so we are Protestants, we have 66 books.

SPEAKER_03 6:02

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 6:02

That is our canon. That becomes the rule or the um the measuring stick of which we live our lives. Um so understanding that, we have to also understand, too, that there were other writings that were written at different periods of time. Some that are uh valuable and some that are completely ludicrous, ludicrous.

SPEAKER_03 6:29

Right.

SPEAKER_04 6:29

Uh those ludicrous ones, um, I'm not gonna spend a lot of time on them, even though they're the most popular ones. Uh those ludicrous ones we call um the the pseudo pseudopigrifel.

SPEAKER_02 6:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:40

And if you know the pseudo uh word means false. It means false or or or just uh um I like to say like hidden uh in a lot of ways because and not hidden in a good way. Um we have pseudo pigraphal authors of our time in the last 20th, 20th, 21st century. Right. One of those being Dr. Seuss. That wasn't his real name, not at all. He wrote under that name. And so a lot of these pseudo pseudopigrifel books are you know, like your Gospel Thomas, Gospel Mary, Gospel Peter, um, those types of things, which uh which all um can be dated to about the second and third century A B.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

People wrote them with the authorship names of Thomas, Mary, and so once to give them validity so that people would read them.

SPEAKER_04 7:25

And if your name was Winston, yeah. And you would that's a great name. Yeah, you wrote the gospel of Winston. Everybody's gonna read that. And so if you want people to read it, you name it after a uh person they would know.

SPEAKER_03 7:39

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 7:39

Uh the problem is the dating. I don't think they thought about that.

SPEAKER_03 7:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:46

Um, in their day they got away with it. Um, but the dating of these books, so it so if you're one of those people that why isn't the gospel of Thomas in our body like in your ear upset about that? Trying to choose my words wide wisely. Be kind.

SPEAKER_01 8:01

I'm trying to be kind.

SPEAKER_04 8:03

It just tells me you really don't know much about the process of it, which again is sometimes it's not your fault. You just haven't learned it, or you watch too much history channel.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

Yeah, history channel's not good for stuff like this.

SPEAKER_04 8:25

Well, what about this book? Um, and you mentioned it earlier. Um, and they say, Well, biblical scholars say, Okay, you have to take that with a grain of salt. Okay. Um I I personally fall into a category of biblical scholarship. Um, my education allows me to be. Um But I'm a Christian, right? And so everything that I do falls under that guise, uh, is I'm a Christian first. Just because you are a biblical scholar does not mean you are a Christian.

SPEAKER_03 8:55

Right.

SPEAKER_04 8:55

Um, there are a lot of guys, a lot of ladies out there who have PhDs in religion, uh philosophies, um, who claim to be biblical scholars, uh, but their scholarship is not coming from a a godly uh and Holy Spirit-led directive.

SPEAKER_01 9:15

Right.

SPEAKER_04 9:16

It's coming from a very worldly viewing of what their scholarship is.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

As Christians, we accept that there is education. We love education, we love knowledge, we love those things, but we also have to understand that there is a Holy, the Holy Spirit lives inside of us to educate our conscience, to give us insight, and and that is a supernatural uh relationship that we have with God that people without it won't understand and won't be able to attach themselves to. Right. So yes.

SPEAKER_04 9:47

And so and so we we have to be careful of that. Um you can go to most secular universities and they're going to have uh religion departments. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 9:57

I went to ECU and they had it and it messed me up for a long time.

SPEAKER_04 10:01

And most of those professors, I I w I maybe I shouldn't say most, a lot of those professors probably are not Christ's followers.

SPEAKER_03 10:13

Right.

SPEAKER_04 10:14

So they're not gonna see the Bible as God's word. Right. They're gonna teach it from a historical, um, you know, so socioeconomic, uh, whatever way they can, other than this is the this is the word of God. Right. And so you may be getting some decent information of you know the the history and that type of stuff. Um, but you're not getting you're not getting you're getting it more of a of a of a fable slash tale slash legend um viewpoint. Right. Um and so that's that's just that's just the reality of that. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

Yeah. Um so these books, they they come back to us, they come through history, and when people hear and you're defining these terms, um, and and I think it's important to kind of set them out at least to a degree. Um, can you talk about the Septuagint just a little bit? Yeah. Um when it kind of when it was, what was about 300 years before Christ. And um so tell us what it was, uh, describe to us what the Septuagint is and how it relates a little bit to uh Jewish the the Jewish writings and and the way things changed entering into the New Testament. And um if you want to touch it.

SPEAKER_04 11:29

So the Septuagint is uh is the Greek Old Testament. Right. We know that the Old Testament was written in Hebrew and Aramaic. Um and when we say Aramaic, we're not Aramaic, we're not talking about uh large, large portions of it.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

Right.

SPEAKER_04 11:44

We're talking a few things in Daniel, in Daniel, uh Ezekiel, yeah, um, having some different um um writings of of uh Aramaic.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

And two of the most deeply prophetic books that we just named, Daniel and Ezekiel, but that we find in the Old Testament, especially concerning end times. Right.

SPEAKER_04 12:02

So if you ever see the abbreviation, L, a capital L, capital X, capital X, that's the abbreviation for Septuagint. Right. Um, and so it's the it's the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, uh, original from the original Biblical Hebrew. So there wasn't Hebrew and then another version and then Septuagint. It was the in and that really formed because of the growing Greek influence uh in culture. That's right. Um Alexander had Greek.

SPEAKER_01 12:31

Right. Yeah, and and that culture was becoming more and more mainstream.

SPEAKER_04 12:35

This is this is your um your your 400 years of silence uh type thing, where you've got uh what we call the, and you've heard me say it if you're in my class on Sunday mornings, the inter-testamental inter-testamental period. Yep. Um and so this uh the the period between the testaments. Um all of this starts taking place. Um uh you get the you get the the Hebrew sorry, I just saw somebody come. Anyway, you you get the you get the Hebrew getting translated into the Greek because the Greek Hellenization, um uh which is what we call the influence of the Greek in in the culture, uh the the Hellenization of the Hebrew culture um starts taking place because of Alexander the Great and the conquests and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 13:19

Of course, Rome comes and builds their empire on top of Alexander the Great Great.

SPEAKER_04 13:22

But but they but they keep they keep that um uh Hellenization.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

Yes, um they like the Greek influence. They liked it, yes. So they kept it.

SPEAKER_04 13:31

Um and so um so that's why in the New Testament, uh the New Testament is written in Koine Greek.

SPEAKER_03 13:37

Right.

SPEAKER_04 13:37

And Koine Greek is a is a language that isn't um spoken today.

SPEAKER_03 13:41

Right.

SPEAKER_04 13:42

Uh it was a known as a commerce language, it was a everyday type language that they used in the markets and stuff. Uh if you were if you were Hebrew descent, you spoke Hebrew, Aramaic. Um a lot of people um you know claim that Jesus spoke only Aramaic. We don't know. Yeah, we weren't there. Um but uh he does say some Aramaic things like rakah, um he um uh Eli Eli Eli Eli Lama Sabbat Lama Shabbat. Yeah um you know those types of words that Jesus speaks that are are are from Aramaic, and so they I think they kind of put those together and say, I must have spoken that. I think Jesus spoke whatever he wanted. That's right. But but in the privacy of your home, um in the in the midst of your services that you did if you were Jewish, uh you probably spoke the language you you natively spoke. That's right. But Koine Greek was written uh or it was it was a way that you communicated with all types of people because most people spoke it.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

That's right. Um if in and it makes sense to put it in the most common language, right?

SPEAKER_04 14:42

Right. Yeah, something the Catholic Church didn't figure out until they had to kill people that tried to anyway. That's a whole nother topic.

SPEAKER_01 14:49

Yeah, and we'll talk about the Latin Vulgates and Jorim a little bit probably.

SPEAKER_04 14:52

Right. Um, and so uh basically what you have during the Second Temple period, uh Aramaic uh was was making uh uh uh entrance really uh into a lot of biblical books. Um you've got uh uh Hebrew that is becoming less and less, and so um it made sense to take um the Septuagint or the the the Hebrew Bible and to put it into the the language of Koine Greek for people to read. And so that's where we get the Septuagint. It's just the Greek version of the Old Testament.

SPEAKER_01 15:26

Now, did the and and I'm asking this clearly out of ignorance because I don't remember, were any of the Deutero canonical books included in the Septuagint?

SPEAKER_04 15:34

No, not that I've ever seen that. I don't believe so either. So so the so the so deutero canonical books just means um uh second canon.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

Right.

SPEAKER_04 15:43

Um and so so when we look at the second canon, uh I I kind of look at it as the way we would see uh the Book of Mormon.

SPEAKER_01 15:53

Right.

SPEAKER_04 15:54

The Book of Mormon claims to be uh another testament of Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_01 15:58

That's a good metaphor. I didn't think of it that way.

SPEAKER_04 16:00

Um that's the way I've I've kind of always seen it. And so I don't accept the Book of Mormon as any kind any type of truth.

SPEAKER_01 16:06

No.

SPEAKER_04 16:07

Um so not not even historical truth.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

No. I don't think you can. No, no, it's been proven to be wrong to meet times.

SPEAKER_04 16:15

The only thing I would look at the Book of Mormon and say, okay, I could agree with that is the one the the parts that is copied word for word from Isaiah. From the book of Isaiah. That's right. Anyway, um I was gonna say that, and I was like, yeah, it was so the deuterocanonical books um uh uh uh are books like Judith, um, which we also call the apocryphal books, um uh Judith and uh Tobit and uh Maccabees, and which there's a couple Maccabees, um uh Sarach, uh Ecclesiasticus, um, those types of things. These are books that um maybe have good history.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

Um I think the Jews would have seen it.

SPEAKER_04 16:55

And they and they absolutely would have. But we know a lot about the 400 years of silence because of the Maccabees.

SPEAKER_01 17:01

Right. Well, you can't have the 400 years of silence without Judas Maccabees and first and second Maccabees tells that story. So Hanukkah, that's where Hanukkah comes from.

SPEAKER_04 17:11

And if you think if you think, yeah, Hanukkah, um, and if you think about the the history there, um you know the the idea like there was a Maccabean war, like like that that's a historical thing.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

Where they revolted against the priest and who were wrong, and so yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:27

And so, and so the the the the thing is with that, e even Josephus, um uh who was a Jewish historian, uh Flavius Josh Josephus, um, looked at the can uh the Deuteronomy or Deuter canonical books and said that's not at all what we believe. Right. Um because what what had to happen uh in the in the Jewish sense um is it had to be written uh by uh by people who were prophesying uh for God. Um it was a it was a a criteria of um you know uh if Daniel, for instance. They knew Daniel was a prophet. Right. Um and so in order for that to become part of their scripture, that they that prophet had to be a prophet of God that they knew.

SPEAKER_03 18:19

Right.

SPEAKER_04 18:20

Um and if and if you know the the Maccabeans it's a history book. Yeah. Um but it's not scripture, right? Judith, um all those Tobit, Tobit's one of the things. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

But you could actually do like a children's movie out of Tobit, probably.

SPEAKER_04 18:36

So and and so there there is something there that we have to we have to understand when it comes to the the um uh deuter chronicle or canonical books that um just because um they are connected to God doesn't mean that the the the Jews would have accepted it as as their scripture. Right. And so here's what I mean by that because we have uh what is our foundation as Christianity?

SPEAKER_01 19:05

Judaism.

SPEAKER_04 19:06

Judaism, yeah, right? Uh we often call ourselves Judeo-Christian. That's right. Okay. Now, do we have the same God?

SPEAKER_01 19:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 19:14

Or do we?

SPEAKER_01 19:15

Well, uh between Jews and Christians. Christians. Well, no, because of Jesus. That's right. Right. Sorry, that's right. I was thinking God the Father. Yeah, but you're right.

SPEAKER_04 19:23

They they would they would say we do um until we brought Jesus into it. That's right. When and we didn't bring Jesus into it, God brought Jesus into it, because that's who he is. Um and so uh one of the common things that we have to break away from in our culture is that the God of Islam, the God of Judaism, and the God of Christianity is not the same God.

SPEAKER_03 19:43

Right.

SPEAKER_04 19:44

And I know that's hard for people because they would say, well, the Jewish people they don't accept Jesus, and and Jesus is God.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

And I've always thought that God's chosen people now are Christians. It's not necessarily Israel, even though I Right.

SPEAKER_04 19:57

I he's not done with Israel.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

No, he's not done with Israel. The promise is partially there. Uh I I I don't know all the history. Yes, can't I don't think anybody can fully explain it. So but I think Christians are the chosen people of God.

SPEAKER_04 20:09

So the Jewish and Protestant Old Testament was understood uh fundamentally uh to be prophetic in character and and in nature. Um so the entire collection um uh traditionally is referred to the law of what?

SPEAKER_01 20:21

Moses.

SPEAKER_04 20:21

Moses or the prophets. Yeah. And so the law and the prophets is what it's known as. Um the reason is because you have the law, which is the books of Moses, the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible, and then you have the rest of them, which is called the the um uh the prophets. Um even even uh even those books that uh we know as uh historical, like um uh judges and for second kings, those are those are prophet prophetic in nature. Um uh not meaning that they're telling the future necessarily all the time, but they're they're pointing towards a a people and and what's going on in the with those people. So the prophetic criteria um became uh this uh this the this reasoning and and so if the if that letter or that book that they were they were reading did not fit as a prophetic letter or part of the uh the law, right, which they only accepted five of those books, right? And um if it didn't fit into those categories, they disregarded it. Right. So as Christians, and I want you to hear me very, very clearly, if the Jewish people did not accept in their own Old Testament, which we accept, if they did not accept those books, we shouldn't either.

SPEAKER_03 21:44

Right.

SPEAKER_04 21:45

I agree. We should not accept those books because the Old Testament is the same old testament that we use as Christians, is the same old testament that the Jews used. Right. And still use.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

It might be different in order, is that correct? Yeah, it could be a big thing. It's different in order, but it's the same books. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:08

Um, and it's different order. Um if you want to know the order, uh get a get a chronological Bible.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

I was just sitting here thinking I'm constantly trying to think of questions that people might ask, and that's one that I think somebody would probably go, oh, it's different order, but no, it's the same books. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:25

The the the the books of the law um in in the Jewish faith are called the Torah. Right. So a a practicing Jew, um, again, this is different too today because you have Orthodox Jews and you have rabbinical Jews. Um and they're they're different in what they count as their authority. Right. The Orthodox Jews will look at the Torah and say, that's our authority. Right. Uh Rabbinical Jews, I believe, um, look to the teaching teachings of the various rabbis as their school of thought because they doesn't mean they don't believe in Torah, but they they look at how the Torah is presented and interpreted by different rabbis.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

They're more Mishnah based.

SPEAKER_04 23:08

Right. Mishnah, yeah, that type of stuff. Uh again, words you all can look up and and find. Yeah. Um, but um, but traditionally, uh, as a test of uh of uh uh to be put in the canon of the old testament, they had to have a prophetic nature. Um and that that was the that was the decisive uh point and of of the Jews and how they they did that. Apocryphal books uh claimed uh prophetic authorship um uh sometimes, uh, but they didn't even come close because the prophetic nature was wrong and all that stuff. Um so the fact that no apocryphal book um is uh like real true apocryphal books are claiming uh the ones that we know of uh are claiming to be prophetic, then that automatically is cinematic. They're not a part of it. Again, they can be learned from. Sure. Um like any good history. Any any good history, yeah. Yep. Um and so uh and the Jewish uh, like I said, historian uh Josephus uh what was talking about the standard um and that required that a book be written by a prophet even to be considered uh inspired. And so um and he maintained that throughout his all of his writings. If you read any of uh Flavius Josephus's stuff, um and and he he taught that if it wasn't a prophetic in book, if it didn't claim to be prophecy, and it shouldn't even be considered at all. Um not even a not even a uh a historical right, uh with some of the stuff I read about him. Like he would he wouldn't even look at it as uh um a possibility. Um and so but that was that was him, yeah. Um even though like he talks a lot about the Maccabean wars and stuff. Um Josephus carries a lot of weight as far as early church fathers goes. And and I I think I think if you want to read the Apocrypha, um then go ahead. It's it's good stuff.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

Well, I I said it before. I think a lot of people who believe that the Apocrypha should be a part of the Bible have honestly, I think I don't think they've ever read it. I and maybe I'm wrong. Maybe a lot of people have read it and believe it needs to be in there, but I I think a lot of times people say things like that and they they've just they've like I think you said they've watched the History Channel or they've you know they've they've seen up they just they just don't know the process in which it it isn't like these these it isn't like anybody could just write a letter and say, Okay, here's scripture.

SPEAKER_04 25:40

I mean, like this this was serious stuff.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

Yeah, it was yeah. I mean, we we're so common to it because we we have the Bible. Right. And if you attend church, you hear sermons and you hear Bible lessons and you hear the words bandied around, First Thessalonians and Acts and everything else, and it just becomes common to us. And um, we forget that to them they were living and dying by these letters. I mean, a letter could mean encouragement, a letter could mean warning. Right. I mean, Jesus told them to get out, Paul encouraged, you know, giving to the early church. I mean, there's so much that goes on in the New Testament that we lose sight of it because years put us out of context, and and it's it's a problem with us.

SPEAKER_04 26:19

So so the the not being a uh uh prophetic in nature is the theological reasoning. Now, beyond that theological uh criteria, there's a practical thing that you that we need to look at. And it's it's uh it's uh apocryphal books that were contemporary with canonical works, like Daniel. Um uh their attributions failed um to convince uh what the chronological uh what I'm trying to say is there's chronological errors that don't coincide with the the so like if if you wrote at the same time as Daniel, if your writing didn't coincide with what Daniel was writing. Right. If they didn't match a timeline, if they didn't match a timeline, right, then then you you were uh that book would not be Right, Daniel would be taken as true. Daniel would be considered true. So basically what happened is is there is a books like Judith and uh was it Tobit? Yeah, that contradict um Daniel Um specifically.

SPEAKER_02 27:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:22

Um and so you can't you can't take that as biblical truth or the word of God because it goes against what you already know to be true.

SPEAKER_01 27:29

Right. It protects the the the baseline truth of the Bible. You know, when we say the Bible doesn't contradict itself, if these books were added, there would be trouble with those contradictions.

SPEAKER_04 27:40

And uh and we also know that none of them survive the the Hebrew or the Aramaic um originals. Uh so uh all canonical Old Testament books existed in Hebrew, right? Um and so the canon had closed before those apocryphal works were even written.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

Yeah, I forget where I read that it was to some, to many, it was closed.

SPEAKER_04 28:01

Right, and and I can't remember what year that was, but but there was there was a there was a point where all the books that you have in the Old Testament were already there and considered scripture before the books that are pseudo or not pseudopigry, but uh uh uh apocryphal were even written.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

So you can't and none of those stretch into the new testament, by the way. We're not talking about anything. This is all the new testament here in a minute.

SPEAKER_04 28:28

Yep. Uh but all Old Testament, the these books were not uh written um and withstood the test of time like the Hebrew Hebrew scriptures did, and so they were considered closed to the to the Jewish nation, there was nothing else that was going to be added. Right. Uh, including when the New Testament happens. Right. And so uh the the the Jews didn't if you're a practicing Jew and you you know you're in your synagogue and somebody brought in a letter of Paul, right, you know, whether it's the church the to the church in Corinth, I mean obviously they didn't have titles at that time, they weren't even Bible books yet. They were just letters passed around to the churches. If you came into that and tried to read that, they would probably ask you to leave. Sure. Or stone you. Yeah. Um, because there's nothing else that's added.

SPEAKER_03 29:12

Right.

SPEAKER_04 29:12

And so that would have included the apocryphal books. Yeah. Um, and so uh although great history, yeah, um, the Maccabees would not have been added because it was written during the Maccabean War, which happened after the closing of the canon. Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:27

So and that's why we that's I I think that's a good point to make because I know for me, you know, in talking about that, you know, when the when the when the solidification happens of the Old Testament canon, we get this set of writings um from the Jews that is quoted um often by New Testament writers. And so Matthew especially, but Paul and uh among others, and um none of those, and you may I if I'm stealing some thunder here, I'm sorry. Um but none of those writers in the New Testament, none of our New Testament books quote anything from the Apocrypha.

SPEAKER_04 30:04

Not from the Apocrypha, no.

SPEAKER_01 30:05

Right, not from not from the Apocrypha at all. And so we get this kind of idea that if if these books were to be included, then the New Testament writers would have done so by you know validating them by quoting them. That's right. And we don't have that either.

SPEAKER_04 30:21

I mean, Jesus says you you've heard it say that the scriptures say, or you know, Paul would say something like, you know, the scriptures say, what scriptures are they talking about? They're talking about the Old Testament. Right. And so if they're talking about the Old Testament, and yet Jesus and Paul and Peter and any never ever address anything of the Apocrypha, then we shouldn't either.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

And they taught, and now Paul quotes Greek philosophers. Yes. I mean, there's there's we we have other things extra biblical quoted, right, but nothing from the Apocrypha. Nothing from the Apocrypha.

SPEAKER_04 30:56

So that that we that we've come across.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

Right.

SPEAKER_04 30:59

Um, and so even Jewish authorities like uh uh um is it Philo? Yeah, Philo, um, he refused to recognize any um uh text that it was apocryphal text um as any type of inspired scripture. Uh even though they were all familiar with it, right, they didn't recognize it as inspired. Uh it you know, because scripture consisted of writings that were recited during their services. Um when they studied in community, they got together and they studied the scriptures. Uh they recited the scriptures, their liturgy came from the scriptures. Right. Uh and so this was a standard that that the apocrypha books never met. They they were never brought into um into any type of worship, any time of any type of liturgy. Um and and so now you wonder why, like, why do the why do Catholics have the Apocrypha? Um, why do why do the Greek Orthodox Church, why do they recognize uh some of these? Um why does the uh the Ethiopian Bible have uh extra books?

SPEAKER_03 32:03

Right.

SPEAKER_04 32:03

Um, you know, I all good questions, Dan. And and they're and they're all they're all answered differently.

SPEAKER_01 32:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:10

Um it depends on who you talk to.

SPEAKER_01 32:12

There are finger it's it's funny because as I was studying this earlier today, it's funny how many there are you like you said, there are just so many differences as to why they exist in these different traditions.

SPEAKER_04 32:24

Um and and so that there is so much there that that you can you can go down uh these paths. Um and now the Eastern Orthodox Church, uh in the in the Oriental Orthodox Church, if if you didn't know there was a uh difference, there is um they have a few a few one that that the um Catholic Church or the uh um that that they don't have. Um and so that is uh let's see I got a list here. They have the prayer of Manasseh, um, they have first and second Estras, uh Ezras, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02 32:57

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 32:58

They have third Maccabees and Fourth Maccabees as an appendix. Yeah. And then they have Psalm 151.

SPEAKER_01 33:04

Yeah, like an ads. An additional Psalm. There's only 150 in our Bible.

SPEAKER_04 33:08

So right. Um and so uh they they have those. Uh there's also um um uh oldest versions of the um uh in Greek and Aramaic, uh they have uh a letter to Jeremiah um, you know, in in the in some of these uh apocryphal books. Um long story, they have additions to Daniel, um, which uh and then have Odes, uh uh O D E S. Um and so like you like you see all these things and you're and you're going, why why don't we have them? It's because the Jews didn't have them in theirs, so the Christians don't. Right. Again, I do I can't tell you a good reason why the Catholics in the Orthodox Church, other than they claim to be the oldest and uh that type of stuff. And so um, I mean I could probably could do a a quick search of why do why do Catholics have extra books, but um uh we have to we have to we have to stick with what we know and that's the Jews didn't have them.

SPEAKER_01 34:09

So Right. I think we'd have I think we'd be here for a lot longer than we really want to allow in this podcast to explain why the Ethiopian Ethiopian church, the you know, and all those all the others have those texts and and and really I I would I would rather put the impetus on them um to to do that. And I'm sure that there's YouTube videos and stuff if you want to study it. I agree with Dan. If the Jews didn't include it and we base our uh they are Judaism is the foundation of Christianity, right, then then I'm and this is kind of where I live. This is why I don't know every last detail about all this. And when people ask me, I simply say the apocrypha isn't valid. And the reason I say it's not valid is because the Jews didn't believe it was valid. And so I'm I'm they believed it was history, they didn't believe it was scripture, and honestly, that's really good enough for me as as far as I live.

SPEAKER_04 34:58

But I do I do believe we need to talk about it, but yeah, yeah, and and you have to also understand like when the when the when the Hebrew Bible closed and then these books were written, that was before the Hebrew Bible closing was before the Septuagint. Okay, and so there is a belief too, and and I'm probably a lot of evidence. Um I haven't looked at a Septuagint Bible for a few years, um, but I believe this the Greek Septuagint does include the Greek versions of the deutero-canonical books. Okay. And I think that's why the Catholic Church um and the Greek Orthodox uh accepts them.

SPEAKER_01 35:33

And it's because Jerome, when he translated the Vulgate, the which is the Latin version of Scripture, um, he did what was it? He did the old he was commissioned to do the Old Testament and then and then he kind of did the New Testament, I think, under his own volition. Um, but when he did, um, if those books were included in there, and I believe I I believe you're right, um, then he would have translated those books into from the Septuagint into the Latin Vulgate. So if they were included in the Septuagint, then yes, he he probably did.

SPEAKER_04 36:05

And it also has a lot has a lot to do with our the the different councils too.

SPEAKER_01 36:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:10

Uh the councils of Trent. I think that's when the Catholic Church uh accepted the um apocryphal books.

SPEAKER_01 36:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 36:16

Um and then there, you know, you got councils of Germania, um, there's all these different councils.

SPEAKER_01 36:22

And so And it's important to note that the Council of Trent, because I was studying that earlier too, that was 1546. So it's 1500 years after Jesus. Yes. And what's happening, you have to understand what's happening in the world at this time. Martin Luther, who comes out, he nails the 99 theses on the wall at the church in Nuremberg, and um, and he says, No, the Roman Catholic Church isn't isn't true. Right. Um, and so I'm these are the 99 problems. I got 99 problems, but you know, and the Catholic Church is one of them, is what basically what he said. And so he goes and he he does these these uh theses, the these ideas, these problems that he has, and so what the church and he he takes the Bible and takes out the um Apocrypha, saying that it should have never been included in the first place. And and correct me if I'm wrong, but then the Catholic Church at the Council of Trent in 1546, they go, We are solidifying that the Apocrypha is part that's that's the way I understand it of what it what it should be.

SPEAKER_04 37:25

And so um it was it was in response to the to the Protestant Reformation, which was started primarily there were some glimpses of this Reformation type stuff, but um really kicked off by um by Martin Luther. So in response to that that Protestant Reformation, uh the official confirmation of the um books that we know as apocryphal books were added to the Council of Trent in 1546. And that was um uh b based off of the the law the the tradition that they had.

SPEAKER_03 38:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:00

Um and and that's what's scary because um not only was it accepted um as they already had the 66. Right. Um as it's accepted, not only is it even before it's accepted fully, like they're forming doctrine out of this.

SPEAKER_01 38:21

Yeah. It would be like us taking well taking anything we wanted and and forming doctrine on it, not understanding its origins, not really addressing the fact that the early church didn't accept these. Right. Um, there's a lot of problems that compound as you go.

SPEAKER_04 38:38

Because like, yeah, maybe the Septuagint has has those books, um, but the Septuagint, I you know, if it if this is Dan speaking, if I'm if I'm if I'm a uh a person copying um the you know the Bible uh the Jewish Bible into Greek, and I know for a fact that Maccabees is used as a historical account uh with the Jews, that sure I I can put that because I'm I'm just trying to get the information out. Again, I don't know that's why they did it, but um, but uh to put to to to form, and this is where we have to be careful we can't go read them great, you're you're gonna you're gonna enjoy yourself. Understand though, you cannot form doctrine, you can't form Christian practices and beliefs from these books. Right. You should not because they are not canonical scripture according to the original 66 books.

SPEAKER_01 39:40

Right. They're fascinating. I've always loved Bell and the Dragon, which is one of the additions to the book of Daniel. And Tobit, like I said, Tobit is kind of like, honestly, I wonder, I would love to ask Tolkien if he wrote The Hobbit from Tobit. Very well could have. Because not only does the wording sound the same, but there's actually similarities in in the stories. And so um it would make sense to me that Tolkien, who was, I believe, he was Catholic, I believe so. Um, would have would have leaned that direction. So and I've never read that those were the same, but when I was studying it today, I kept thinking, I was like, man, I wonder if it's true.

SPEAKER_04 40:13

It's yeah, it's fairly which is fine.

SPEAKER_01 40:14

If Tolkien did that, that's fine. But again, he's not writing scripture, he wrote Lord of the Rings. So that's you know, which is pretty dang cool. It's good, it's really good and worth reading. But um, yeah, so I was I just looked up, I was I was wondering about Jerome, and it says that he he did translate some of the Septuagint into Latin, but he did also take um he stopped doing that part of the way. It says he was initially tasked to revise the old Latin based on the Septuagint. Jerome decided to produce a new translation from the Hebrew, which was recognized by his contemporary Augustine, who said that Jerome translated not from Greek but directly from the original transition. So that's interesting.

SPEAKER_04 40:55

Yeah, yeah. I mean that to me that brings up a few things of red flags for me as I so why did Jerome stop with great question with the Septuagint? Yeah. Did he come across something that says and said to himself, man, that's just not that great of a translation.

SPEAKER_02 41:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:15

It says he translated most of it directly from Hebrew, but um there were there were pieces and parts that um he translated from the Septuagint. Right. And and guys, if you don't understand what we mean there, it's really dangerous to translate truth out of a translation. Right. Um, and uh, and what we mean is that as preachers, as students of the Bible, our job is to go into the language and understand what the language says and means. And that's why com that's why we value commentaries that dig into the word structures and and things, and that's what we're taught in school is how to be exegetical about scripture, to read it in in the original or understand the original language, so that we can understand context and bring it into modern day, which really is is the Holy Spirit's job. We're we're just helpers. But um, but yeah, it that's that's dangerous if he was translating from that. And and of course, if someone listens to this and they're they're Catholic, they're gonna they're gonna try to Yeah, you're you're gonna disagree with every word I just said. Yeah, they're they're gonna so disagree.

SPEAKER_04 42:16

And that's okay, you can be wrong. Yeah, it is. This is our podcast, so you go get your own. Um and so and and that's what that's what makes it hard, though, is like um we have sixty-six books. Yeah, the Catholics have sixty-six plus seven.

SPEAKER_02 42:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:45

And and so what what what do you what do you do with that? And and how much of their doctrine comes from those seven extras? And and I mean there's just a litany of questions. Again, I I I love I love I have I have family members who are Catholic who I believe are are good Christian people. Um, and so um but but we have to we have to what what is our basis for truth? Um who are we who are we basing this on? It's kind of like the friends that I have that are that are um Seventh day Adventists or who are, you know, um uh Jehovah's Witnesses, which Jehovah's Witnesses, that's that's a different, I mean I shouldn't even say that in the context of anything, because that's that's a cult. But um, you know, but when when we when we're starting to take these other writings and we're we're giving them weight and saying this is equal to if not better than scripture. Right. And I'm not saying Catholics do that. Uh what I'm saying is we have to be careful as to where we're developing our doctrines and and and what we're teaching. If it's from the 66 books of the Bible, then we can have some conversations about okay, maybe that that's a weird interpretation of that, or or that's you know, that's not in context. Uh, but at least you're coming from from the same platform that I am.

SPEAKER_01 44:00

Well, and that's the important part is that we can agree where to stand as we have a disagreement on something. Right. Because if we can't agree where to stand, then the dis then the disagreement isn't the problem. It's where we're standing. Right. And uh and that's that's a lot of the you know, I I I do believe that there are tremendous Catholics out there. Um I believe that there I mean we've recently met um uh a Catholic who really kind of turned it, she turned me on my head as far as some of my, you know, but she she had a very unique experience within Catholicism that is as close to what I believe as I've ever heard. Yep, yeah. It was amazing talking to her. And so um those kind of things, I was I was uh kind of a side note here talking about what what doctrines they pull out, and um I asked, I just Googled really quick, what where does the um doctrine of purgatory come from within the Catholic faith? And it it lists 1 Corinthians 3, where St. Paul speaks of the day when a person's work will be tested by fire. Um Matthew 12, where Jesus states some sins can't be says Jesus states that some sins cannot be forgiven in this life or the next. Is that the unforgivable sin? Is that what he's talking about there? Anyway, I'd have to dig into that because that's now I'm interested. Um, but um now's the judgment of this world. Now will the ruler of this world be cast out, and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw men to myself. What the heck does it mean that he can't forgive all sin? That doesn't mean that. Uh anyway, that's what you get when you ask Google. But the thing, but the thing about it is that the first passage mentioned is 2 Maccabees chapter 12, and it says Judas Maccabees praise and offers sacrifices for the dead so their sins can be forgiven. Now, I don't have a copy of 2 Maccabees in front of me, so it that may be just as erroneous as what I read in about Matthew 12, but the doctrine of purgatory does not come from uh any Bible that I've ever read. No. So, you know, that's why I was thinking of that when I was wondering if that, and and again, I've not done enough study. I I'm a I'm a preacher, I don't have to go and study other religions deeply to understand my own faith. But um uh yeah, that that doctrine seems to come from one of these books as I think.

SPEAKER_04 46:10

And it does. And to the to the credit of most uh probably every Catholic I've ever talked to about doctrine, I I don't get the statement, well, Judith 1 5 says. Right. Um so so to their credit, for most for every Catholic that I've ever dealt with about this, they've never went straight to the apocryphal books. Even though I know they use them to help in their understanding of doctrine, that Maccabees one is true. Um and so um, and I think I think the other one is too the the Matthew 12 is just a gross misunderstanding. And it must be. Yeah, I mean, it's the same, you know, they believe Peter was the first Pope. Right. Um, you know, and we we read the same verses and and that's they still kind of come away with that.

SPEAKER_01 46:58

Yeah, this Catholic website uh asked the question Um uh does the Bible, does Scripture tell about purgatory? And of course the first one it quotes is 2 Maccabees 12. So um so they're definitely you know using that as scripture.

SPEAKER_04 47:11

So let's move to the New Testament real quick. Okay. Um and so the New Testament, um uh contrary to popular belief, the New Testament was not formed at the Council of Nicaea by Constantine. I know that's the thing I hear most often. It was it was at the Council of Nicaea, Constantine said this is what's all man-made, they all put it in there again tells me that you don't really have much of a an understanding, and you're watching too much history channel or other other things that are are are clouding your judgment. Right. There is a course of four four councils that the scriptures, the New Testament scriptures were were put in, or council of Nicaea, okay, uh, that started the process. It addressed uh Arianism. This is where um uh old Saint Nick slaps Arius. Yep. Um allegedly, I like to think it's true just because of the or a disciple of Arius or someone close or whatever the story is, it's also and basically Arianism is this idea that Jesus was created, right? And so uh we know that he's the uncreated one. Um uh it established the Nicen Creed, but it actually did not finalize the New Testament. Okay, it kicked off that argument, or that not the arguments, but well, yeah, the arguments for uh the Council of Laodicea, uh uh so that was 325 was Nicaea. Uh, and then I think it was like 10 years, almost 10 years later, 362 or 63. Um, it it listed the accepted books, including the New Testament, but was not a universally recognized canon yet. So they talked about what was accepted, uh, but it wasn't universally agreed upon. Uh, then you have the Council of Carthage, uh, about 397, 398, uh, that affirmed the New Testament as we know it today, including the 27 books of the New Testament. Um, and then it was the Synod uh which is called the Synod of Hippo in 393, uh, which was uh before the Carthage one, uh recognized those same 27 books, which influenced that later council of Carthage. So it's actually at Carthage where everything is affirmed, but it was it was it was years of debate. So it wasn't like these guys got into a room and said, Hey, we're gonna put this and this and this. Right. And there was three criteria that New Testament books had to meet. Okay. Um write these down if you have notes.

SPEAKER_01 50:06

These are important.

SPEAKER_04 50:08

So uh these criteria are important because this was not just, hey, that sounds cool. We should accept that. Right. Um they had to have an apostolic origin. Okay, so that means the book must be linked to an apostle or to or a close associate of an apostle.

SPEAKER_02 50:27

Right.

SPEAKER_04 50:27

It's the reason we can have Luke.

SPEAKER_02 50:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 50:30

Luke was not a disciple, he was not an apostle, but he had a direct disciple that he was working under. Right. So that's why Luke could write what he wrote, right? And it can be called scripture. Right. Mark. Mark was not an apostle, right? But he had a direct link to and close association with apostles. Right. Um, we believe most of Mark's information comes from directly from Peter.

SPEAKER_02 50:56

Right. Yeah. That they would have been close.

SPEAKER_04 50:58

And so it doesn't get any closer than that. Right. Um, and so if they were not written by an apostle or a close associate of an apostle, um, they were not considered scripture. Right. Jude. Jude wasn't an apostle, but he had close association with apostles because Jude was actually a leader in the church. James was a leader. That in fact, the the the elder, yeah, James the Elder, um, he was one of the top elders. I it it if it if it was going to happen in the church, it went through him.

SPEAKER_01 51:28

Yep. Of the Church of Jerusalem. Jerusalem, yes.

SPEAKER_04 51:31

And so um, so they could be included. Um, it had to have widespread acceptance. That means the book should be widely accepted and used in all in Christian communities across different regions. So they would they would say, okay, um of of all the regions we have, is this book accepted? And if and if the answer was no, why? Um, but uh it had to be widely accepted. So it wasn't just willy-nilly put together, right? Um, it had to be widely accepted as truth. And also it had to be consistent with doctrine.

SPEAKER_03 52:02

Right.

SPEAKER_04 52:02

So if these books did not have uh, if they had any type of contradictory nature in them uh uh of what was already previously accepted as as teaching and revelation, right, then it was not accepted. That's right. So it had to agree with everything the apostles taught, it had to be written by an apostle or an associate of an apostle, and it had to be widely accepted by the church. Right. If it did not meet those three criteria, it was out. It was out. Yep. Okay. And so again, going back to books like Thomas and Mary and all those, those didn't even have a chance because they were written so far after Jesus, second, third century, that they didn't even I mean probably around these times of these, you know, um uh councils, yeah. Um and they were written by Gnostics. Yeah. The Gospel of Thomas is terrible. It's terrible. It's absolutely and all it is is this sayings, it's just different sentences that they believe Jesus said. Yeah. It's horrible and things he did. That isn't part of what we have in in the canon, and it it directly contradicts a lot of what we have in in the 66 books, right? Especially in the New Testament. Um, one of them, I don't know if it's Mary or uh one of them has Jesus as being married and having kids.

SPEAKER_01 53:29

Um there's one that is that the one that says it was Mary Magdalene. I think so, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 53:33

Yeah, and then there's one, and I I can't I can't remember which one it was, but uh something about Jesus was gay, yeah, had a had a uh homosexual relationship with uh John, yeah, his disciple, the one whom he loved. Anyway, yeah, and and so I all of that contradicts to what was actually taught. Right. So again, as a Christian, as a Christian who has integrity, we cannot look at those books and say, well, we we have to include them because why did they leave out the gospel? It must have been a conspiracy. They left out the gospel of Thomas. Well, it wasn't written by an apostle, right? It was given the name of an apostle, but it was written by the criteria, it doesn't meet the criteria, and so um, so uh true or false, it was done in Nicaea, false. Okay, it was started there, right? Um, Constantine didn't say, hey, put these books together, right?

SPEAKER_01 54:24

You gotta remember, Constantine loved Christianity because it it placated people. Right. I mean, he was uh you know, I still don't believe Constantine was this wonderful Christian who ran around discipling and evangelizing people from history. I I think he did it because he was a Roman legalist. It was advantageous, yeah. It helped him and uh like any good politician, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 54:44

And again, we we can see that from the fruit. Right. We don't know his heart, right, but but we can see that from the fruit. Yeah, and and we can't we can't sit there and and I to me why any anybody with any sense of uh integrity in the Lord is still having these conversations is beyond me.

SPEAKER_03 55:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 55:05

And I'm not meaning that in a harsh way. I'm just saying like we've got to start studying for ourselves instead of listening to um people who who widely are not even practicing believers, right? Uh just because they call themselves a historian or a biblical scholar. Right. Um, and and so uh if that's all we're doing is titles, then yeah, but listen anyway, I don't care.

SPEAKER_01 55:30

I mean if that's what if that's your criteria.

SPEAKER_04 55:33

But but look look at the person who's giving the information, what is their background?

SPEAKER_01 55:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 55:38

Uh, you know, we can get we can get into all kinds of stuff like Enoch.

SPEAKER_03 55:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 55:41

Uh Enoch, great, great reading. It's not just one book, by the way, it's several. Um, uh we shouldn't be forming doctrine over Enoch. Now, now, yes, Jude addresses a lot of things that Enoch does. Um, it doesn't mean he's quoting necessarily word for word from Enoch. Right. Um, but a lot of what Jude is talking about is in Enoch.

SPEAKER_01 56:03

Well, and there could have been plenty of oral history on Enoch within the Jewish community that taught of Enoch. I mean, Enoch was a big he was a big figure. He's one of the two men who didn't die in the Bible. Right. So, or in history. In history. So um, I mean, we get this we get this idea that he's not necessarily having to quote from a a book, he's he could be quoting oral history, which is what that's which happened.

SPEAKER_04 56:24

So a lot of what Enoch wrote down could have been true. I mean, he talks, but what we get so we get so fascinated with things like Nephilim, yeah, um, because Enoch talks about the Nephilim and he expounds upon what is actually written in in Genesis six. But you gotta understand, like if if we're taking what Enoch is writing and we're forming our belief system off of what Enoch is writing instead of what the Bible actually just says, then we've got to be careful because we're gonna start coming up some weird stuff.

SPEAKER_01 56:52

Yeah. Years and years of teaching youth has taught me that there are certain things that I don't normally teach about and don't bring up because of fascination factors. And the fascination factor with things like Sat with like uh Satanism and demonism and things like that are commonly things that I would talk about with them, but I would not expound upon. And the reason being is because sometimes when you're immature in your faith, the the knowledge becomes more of a, oh, I'm gonna go poke that bear than stay away from it. And I'm afraid that the more the I don't know, the longer and the the the longer I stay in ministry, the more I see people really grasping for straws when it comes to I don't believe because of X. Yes, you know, and this X is something Nephilim from the book of Enoch, or why isn't the book of Enoch in the Bible? And that's bothersome. It's really dangerous to me because it really says that they're not studying their Bible for themselves, they're not investing in a prayer life where the Holy Spirit can educate them. There's there's not that that life there. They're just allowing reasons and excuses to come in the way of truth. And and I think that people hide from the truth because they they they have things hidden they don't want to address. And so questions are always a good thing. You know, why if somebody comes to me, why aren't these books included in the Bible? And and my question should be get, I guess, back. Why why are you asking that question? Like, what are you what's what's your hang up, you know, with all this? And and see where they go with it.

SPEAKER_04 58:26

And that's and that's so it it's going back to the Nephilim thing. I mean, uh somebody recently told me um the reason for the flood was because of the the Nephilim. And I said, No. That's not what Genesis. Genesis doesn't say that. It it literally, and I have it right in front of me. Then the Lord said, My spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh, his days shall be 120 years. The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came and the to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown. The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Doesn't say anything about the Nephilim causing that.

SPEAKER_02 59:18

No.

SPEAKER_04 59:19

It's the sin of man. It's the sin of man. Right. And plus, what happened when the flood happened? It it supposedly killed off everybody, everybody except for Noah and his family. But it says the Nephilim were on the earth in those days and also afterward when the sons of God came. And so we can't we can't put things in our belief system that isn't actually there.

SPEAKER_01 59:41

I know what our next fan mail, by the way, is gonna be. Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 59:44

So and and you can put all your fan mail you want in that one. It's gonna be a really short conversation. Yeah, it is. Um so um the reality is we don't have to know what the Nephilim were.

SPEAKER_02 59:54

No.

SPEAKER_04 59:54

The reality is the Nephilim do not uh uh do not have any any bar hold on our salvation. Right. Now they're fun, it's fun to look at and it's a mystery. It's I I get it. I but if it's hanging you up on salvation, if it's hanging up on salvation, that's an issue, there's an issue. Yeah, it's like these books that we're talking about, these these non-canonical books, these uh uh apocryphal, these uh even pseudopigry, the the false ones that we talked about. Um if that is hanging you up on following Jesus, I can guarantee you it's not those books. No, that's not the reason why you're not the reason you're not wanting to follow Jesus, and I I will die on this hill, is because you don't want to invite accountability into your life. That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:36

And that is the truth of Christianity. That's right. From here to there, it will always be the truth that people hide and they throw barriers up, and the it's easy to do a chat GPT search on and maybe you want to do this if this is your heart. I hope you don't want to do this, but um, it's easy to go there and say, Chat GPT, what are some of the most common arguments against Christianity? And get yourself a list and then go to war. And you'll find people like Dan and I that will do our best to help you understand. Right, but also we're not gonna get hurt in that war. Um, it's not gonna, it's it's not something that's going to defeat us, it's not gonna defeat Christ. It's not something that we are going to go to bed at night and worry when we lay our head on our pillow that we've been unfaithful. We there are things about the Bible, guys. I've been doing this for 30 years. There obviously there are things about the Bible that I don't fully understand. Just earlier, when I was reading that verse, I realized I was reading from John 1232 and not Matthew 1232, but thankfully Dan picked it up and he's right. It is a misinterpretation of something that that people use, and people love to misinterpret things so that it explains what they believe, and that they want the Bible to say what they want it to say. We are living a world, oh my gosh, we live in a world where it's on every single side, people wanting the Bible to say what they want to say.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:57

What does Paul write to Timothy? He said there will be there'll be a time where people will believe false doctrine and whatever whatever itches their ears. Yep. Um, and I had to explain that saying to my my students today. Um, but you know, it's it we we want to hear what we want to hear, we want to have the excuses that we want to have. Yeah. Um in and I I was an atheist for a long time in my life. I was raised that way. I I believe I I have family members that are that way. And it's not because they don't believe only, it's because then if you have if you if if you're faced with truth and you have to make a decision on that, especially if it's Christ, you have to invite a change in. And so so when you accept Christ, things are gonna be different. Um, you now have accountability, that's right, and we don't want to have accountability for our actions.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:50

Because then we have to change something. That's right. Or we have to allow change to come. Right. That's right. And we don't want that because we're comfortable. Even in our it look, there's I know plenty of people who are comfortable in their illness. They're they're comfortable in their sickness, they're comfortable in their uncomfortability, they're comfortable in their, you know, whatever it is that hurts them, they're comfortable with that because they think they're in control.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:10

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:10

And control becomes this issue. Control is such a sin when it's us trying to control our lives and our our beliefs when God says, Here's my book, read it. It's truth. My spirit is for you. I send my son to die for you, and I'm waiting for you. And and we just constantly buck our noses at him and say, No, this is my life, I'm gonna live it. And how small a life it is, indeed, not to be tied to a grand narrative. Right, right. It's it's amazing.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:38

And we're not even saying that you have to you have to know anything before you come to Jesus, other than that you are you are a sinner in need of salvation.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:48

That's right. I've baptized kids before who who could articulate that, you know, eight, nine years old. Why do you want to be baptized? Because I'm I believe I'm a sinner. Well, how do you sin? Well, I hit my sister or I you know stole something in school or whatever. These are sins. And when you start to understand your sin separates you from a relationship with God, then man, we better we better work on you making that good confession and repenting and and uh coming into relationship with him because that's important, man.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:14

I mean that's because because it the the truth of the matter is that if you have any type of hiccup of you and Jesus, and you you are not a Christian because of books, or you're not a Christian because of just be honest with yourself. Get down to brass tacks, and the reason you're not a Christian is because you have to be accountable to Jesus. That's right. Period. Yep. So do yourself a favor and become intellectually honest with yourself and at least come to that that conclusion. Come to that conclusion.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:50

It's fine to ask questions. That's right.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:52

It's fine.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:54

I mean, there's things in scripture that I come across all the time, and I'm like, wait a minute, I've read that a hundred times, but I obviously don't understand it. So let me go study it. And and it's important to us to understand that you don't, I agree, you don't have to know anything but I'm a sinner, I need to be saved. And only Jesus Christ can do that. That's right. And and in the end, at the end of the day, that's what we do. And then hopefully, if you're not at Broad Creek, if you're somewhere else, you'll find a responsible Christian, excuse me, a good mature Christian who will help you walk that walk and show you what scripture says and pray with you and and you can be accountable to each other and grow in that. And that's called discipleship. And it's how we grow disciples to look more and more like Jesus Christ. That's right.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:40

And in the in the show notes, uh, I just sent it to you. Okay, good. Dad, um, go visit Wesleyhuff.com. I was gonna bring up Wesley Huff. Um He so so he and I are in the same stage of our PhDs. We're still writing, because it seems like I've been writing for years. Because I have been. Anyway, that's what we do. You've So the um uh he he specializes in the biblical languages um and actually he he actually makes hand copies of replicas of the the um papyrus that we have found uh in in the wild in in our archaeological digs. And so he'll make he'll he'll he'll make copies of those. Um he does beautiful work, but he's got a coup he's got a couple episodes, uh, episode one and two. We've done this at our church, I believe, during uh um Connect time, but it's kit it's called Can I Trust the Bible?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:36

And so go to that, um, and he's got all kinds of resources, documentary stuff, infographs, yeah. Um go go look at those things. Uh he's got a a uh a whole litany of stuff. Uh but to wrap this up, we need to understand that that the scriptures that we have, the 66 books that we have, all met the criteria. And that's what we need to base our beliefs on. If you are hung up on not being a Christian because there's other books floating around there, you just need to understand that's not a book thing, that's a you thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:10

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:10

And so address that. Yeah. Um the books, the books, the books are not supposed to be there because they're they're not there, because they're not supposed to be there.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:20

And I fully believe, I I I have always believed this that if the books weren't right in the Bible, if there needed to be more added, or if there needed to be some taken away, that God would have facilitated that in some manner at some point. It God's not going to take the time to inspire all these writers over three continents, 1500 years, 40 authors, whatever. He's not going to inspire all that to make a work that is flawed for us so that we can't know him. And so if you start to question the Bible and its validity, then you're really questioning the power of God to communicate with man. And that's that's a that's an issue as well. And so I agree with Dan. Go back, find out why you're you're asking these questions, and and uh I have to agree. Um it's because you don't want to uh surrender that control and to um really submit.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:09

Um I get it, we're not we're not people who like to be controlled.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:12

No, no, no, no. What's built into us not to be so I can't control um the the um dad joke three thousand um so which we're about to hear. And as we wrap this up, we're gonna end it like we always do. Some of you have stuck around for an hour and eight minutes just to hear the dad joke 3,000. That's right. And maybe you fast forwarded to the end. We're not sure what you do with the podcast, but we're thankful that you're here anyway. So here we go.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:35

I I feel like before the dad, should we pray after or before?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:38

Oh, we should definitely pray before. Okay. Okay. Yeah, let's let's uh here, I'll pray. Okay. I'll pray today. Heavenly Father, I'm so thankful. I'm thankful for Dan, Lord. I'm thankful for his background and education that allows him to um speak about these things. And Lord, um, thank you for the the blessing of the knowledge that we have. But Lord, we also understand that this knowledge um is something that can be manipulated and people manipulate it all the time, that people do for their own ends what they want to do. And so, Lord, make us unselfish in this. Help us, Lord, to rid ourselves of the control that we believe we have to have over such things. And Lord, let us look in faith at your word. Lord, combined with knowledge, combined with um intellect and and coherence, but Lord, um, to take in faith, Lord, that that your word is perfect and complete. Lord, bless us so that we can live in this constant faith that, Lord, you are communicating with us and and and caring for us. And Lord, if we pray and we believe that you don't speak to us, then Lord, I I would challenge uh, Lord, people to open their Bibles and hear from you. Lord, you speak to us through that and your power is great. And Lord, we are so grateful for your message to this world. Lord, thank you for Jesus, the word uh of God. Lord, thank you for Him being our truth and our way and our life. And Lord, we know there's no way to you and to an eternal heaven except through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, our God. Lord, we thank you for him. It's in your son's perfect and holy name we pray. Amen. Amen. All right, all right, guys. So Dad Joe 3000, here we go.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:20

Here we go.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:22

Why don't skeletons fight each other? They don't have the guts.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:28

Here, I'll do it late. Oh, I didn't have it turned up. I'm sorry. There we go. There we go. I guess I can crickets. Anyway, we need to get out of here. We love you guys so much. Thanks for listening. I hope you have a blessed week, and um uh we will, Lord willing, we will talk to you next week.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:49

Have a good one, guys. Love you guys.